The Least Reliable Method for Receiving Truth:

[ajax]

Revelation and the HG.

This seems to me to be quite obvious. We see it when we compare each others notes about what we are supposedly receiving, some get one answer, some get a completely different, diametrically opposed answer. We see it among the church hierarchy, a supposed "revelation" diametrically opposed to another "revelation" just a few years later. The latest being only one in a long line. An apostle talking about God giving wrong directions on purpose, see Holland's "wrong roads".

It seems to be really one big crap shoot. And of course everybody seems to think theirs is correct. It's probably really just subconscious preferences and traditions coming through.

[thestock]

Edison learned 100 ways not to build a lightbulb before he learned a way to build it. Is that not inspiration? Perhaps not. But I rather think it is. And its not much different with the church and its leaders. Sure, maybe and angel comes down and says "thus sayeth the Lord.....do the following" but I doubt it. Rather they are left to struggle and figure out the best course of action for themselves. So then the question becomes "well how do I know which church is correct?" Maybe its not about which one is "more correct". Maybe its about finding true principles and an organization that is committed to them and to discovering God's will, even if by trial and error.

[endlessQuestions]

Revelation and the HG.

This seems to me to be quite obvious. We see it when we compare each others notes about what we are supposedly receiving, some get one answer, some get a completely different, diametrically opposed answer. We see it among the church hierarchy, a supposed "revelation" diametrically opposed to another "revelation" just a few years later. The latest being only one in a long line. An apostle talking about God giving wrong directions on purpose, see Holland's "wrong roads".

It seems to be really one big crap shoot. And of course everybody seems to think theirs is correct. It's probably really just subconscious preferences and traditions coming through.

I don't agree with your conclusion, but your observations are astute.

[Kris17]

I think you are assuming that the truth appropriate for one will be the same as the truth for another. Even if capitalized. it is not. We are not alike - oft similar, maybe, but ... To me the purpose of truth, for an individual is to help/encourage/push that individual to grow. in spiritual awareness and understanding. So a truth for tomorrow will likely not be the truth for today. unless you are not listening and trying to grow.

Challenge yourself!

[Centerline]

Personally, I don’t feel like Heavenly Father is a micro manager. At times I have received very specific information I would describe as revelation and in a few cases it was life changing. These incidents included specific promptings and confirmation of truth in relation to Jesus Christ and a few other things. More often than not I choose a path based on my own study of the topic and after prayer it felt right. Sometimes it worked out and other times it didn’t. I always have faith, no matter what, that all things are done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. I know some other people who claim to receive very specific promptings and personal revelation all the time on subjects big and small. This has not been my personal experience though.

[Original_Intent]

All of the preceding comments have merit.


My personal feeling is, that pretty much everyone, the moment they receive the purest of true revelations, they will immediately start distorting it, unintentionally. To themselves, and certainly when they try to relate it to others. And moreso, as time passes, they will in general, get it more and more wrong. Yours truly included.

The only way to mitigate this is to continually go back to the Lord, stating your current understanding and seeking either confirmation, correction, or "good enough for now." This is a very tough thing that I think no one is capable of doing 100%.

A good example was during the final session of this last conference. President Nelson, very kindly and gently, asked everyone to curb their enthusiasm during the announcement of new temples. And, in truth, I agree with his sentiment that at last conference there were some outbursts that detracted from the proper spirit of the moment.

I'll admit, though - the first thing that came to my mind was the moment in the pre-existence when the Plan of Salvation was made known, and the inhabitants of heaven SHOUTED for joy - and I pictured pre-existence President Nelson asking people to quietly bow their heads so as not to disturb the reverence of the moment. (and I'll admit, I feel that I am bordering on "speaking evil of the Lord's anointed, so let me walk that back a bit.)

The thing is - so much is due to our upbringing as well as simply the spirit of who we are. I sincerely doubt that the Lord is offended by an exclamation of joy at the announcement of a temple that may make attendance much more available to us and our loved ones. There are other similar issues from prophets past and current where, frankly, they got it wrong. Sometimes on minor matters and sometimes on very serious matters indeed.


My personal rule is for personal revelation as well as revelation that comes to us thru church channels - we should continually be seeking verification and greater clarification up to the point that we are TOLD by the Spirit to stop asking so much!

and like Kris17 said/implied - one of our biggest faults is to assume that the revelation someone else rec'd must be false because it is different from revelation that we rec'd that we KNOW is true! I think this is one of the beautiful things that we can look forward to and can to a degree live now - the concept of no asking "Know ye the Lord? for all shall know Him." How beautiful that we can tend to our own errand, and leave others in peace to tend to theirs for which they are better qualified.

[simpleton]

I think you are assuming that the truth appropriate for one will be the same as the truth for another. Even if capitalized. it is not. We are not alike - oft similar, maybe, but ... To me the purpose of truth, for an individual is to help/encourage/push that individual to grow. in spiritual awareness and understanding. So a truth for tomorrow will likely not be the truth for today. unless you are not listening and trying to grow.

Challenge yourself!

Truth.... " Eternal Unchanged Evermore" Truth is Truth period. We may not be exactly alike, but the truths of the gospel are the same yesterday, today and for eternity. All mankind is saved upon the exact same principles of truth. The above explanation I feel is what i consider "new age" or the idea that "it's all good" that it mattereth not what a man does according to the volition of the creature.
Now if you are talking about circumstances or situations that seemingly contradict truth, like say Nephi and the beheading of Laban, ( as that story is used quote often here) thou shalt not kill, yet God commanded Nephi to kill Laban......
Personally I think that "blood atonement" or "capital punishment" is an eternal law, and, that Nephi was commanded by the Greatest Judge of the universe to take Labans life for Labans actions that were worthy of death. Death as pertaining to the flesh, not the soul, wherein some kind of recompense is meted out, or if you will Laban paid a debt or price for his unrepented wickedness. And probably, ( and I am supposing here) much more wickedness that he was guilty of that we know not of......

But back to Truth, it does not change, nor will it ever change. Circumstances do, but never truth.

[Kris17]

Truth. All things change. Truth.

If you mentally lock yourself in to a certain point in existence/awareness/understanding, you cannot grow in awareness/understanding.
My God wants me to grow in awareness/understanding.

Why do you suppose God keeps spawning religions down here - because folks get stuck in their ways, their beliefs. They stop growing.

Remain open. Allow yourself to change and grow! as God guides you!

Every day I pray "make me more like You".

("My God" is, of course, the same as your God - we (may) just interpret the messages we receive differently!)

[John 14:12. “Greater Works Than These Shall He Do; Because I Go unto My Father”

It may sound startling to some to say that those who believe in Jesus Christ will do greater works than He did. However, the Lectures on Faith suggests that this statement is better understood in connection with the Savior’s teachings in John 17:20–24:] https://www.lds.org/study/manual/new-te ... 6?lang=eng

[shadow]

I'll admit, though - the first thing that came to my mind was the moment in the pre-existence when the Plan of Salvation was made known, and the inhabitants of heaven SHOUTED for joy - and I pictured pre-existence President Nelson asking people to quietly bow their heads so as not to disturb the reverence of the moment. (and I'll admit, I feel that I am bordering on "speaking evil of the Lord's anointed, so let me walk that back a bit.)

This is another example of how people and even cultures are different. Some are big on celebrations and others aren't. I was actually reminded of the original movie Footloose when he made that comment

Not that it matters but I picture Pres. Nelson also among those who shouted for joy when the plan was made known, but I don't picture him shouting for joy when Christ was hanging on the cross, though it was certainly something to be grateful for, it was, after all, Good News. Pres. Nelson might find Temples to be more sacred than others. I know there were feelings from those in areas where Temples were announced but weren't followed by hooting and hollering as if Temples in their areas weren't as important. Many Temple dedications are preceded by local church celebrations.


As per the topic at hand, there is only one path. How to get on that path and how to stay on that path is a personal matter. Since we're all different, God might lead and guide us differently to get on that path and to stay on that path. But there is no other way.

[friendsofthe]

When I was a young Mission Mormonary in the missionary training center in S.L.C. they took us into the solemn assembly room of the temple. There a member of the First Presidency came and spoke to us. Joseph Fielding Smith was president of the church at the time and Herold B. Lee was the one who addressed us.

One of the things that he told us that has stuck to me like glue over the years was that we should hold to the standard works and that anyone, regardless of position, who teaches something contrary to the standard works was not to be believed. He went on to say that the only exception to this rule was the president of the Church who alone was in a position to introduce new doctrine. Here's a quote from Herold B. Lee that's pretty close to what he taught us that day:

Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye In Holy Places, p.109-110
We have the standard Church works. Why do we call them standard? If there is any teacher who teaches a doctrine that can't be substantiated from the standard church works—and I make one qualification, and that is unless that one be the President of the Church, who alone has the right to declare new doctrine—then you may know by that same token that such a teacher is but expressing his own opinion. If, on the other hand, you have someone teaching a doctrine that cannot be substantiated by the scriptures, and more than that, if it contradicts what is in the standard Church works, you may know that that person is teaching false doctrine, no matter what his position in this church may be. The President of the Church alone may declare the mind and will of God to His people. No officer nor any other church in the world has this high and lofty prerogative. When the President proclaims any such new doctrine, he will declare it to be a revelation from the Lord.

Now, one of the problems we have is the habit of quoting someone in a position of authority and who was not the president of the church when he made a particular statement, as if it were scripture and a primary source. Here's a shocker for you, Bruce R. McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith before he was president of the church are to be believed, only to the extent that what they taught conforms to the standard works. Joseph Fielding Smith himself taught this, said he:

"It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine.

"You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.

Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:203-204.)]

One of the problems we have in our imperfect church for example, is, what passes for doctrine at Brigham Young University where they help prepare much of the curriculum of the church. Though well-intentioned, it could easily be a mistake to quote McConkie as though he were the president of the church, can you see why? We need to stick to the standard works and the teachings of the president of the church, because when we treat the statements of everyone as authoritative, contradiction and confusion follows.

In my area of research, the Second Coming, this problem is rampant... IOL.. Give me a couple of hours on the church web site and I could most likely point you to half a dozen contradictions about the Lord's coming. Bless their hearts... they just don't know what they don't know. You even hear it on occasion in general conference... those who are called to high positions are not perfect and neither are you and I, right?

However, no worries, hope is just around the corner... "Wait until next year and then the next year, take your vitamin pills, get your rest, it's going to be exciting"!

[Craig Johnson]

Revelation and the HG.

This seems to me to be quite obvious. We see it when we compare each others notes about what we are supposedly receiving, some get one answer, some get a completely different, diametrically opposed answer. We see it among the church hierarchy, a supposed "revelation" diametrically opposed to another "revelation" just a few years later. The latest being only one in a long line. An apostle talking about God giving wrong directions on purpose, see Holland's "wrong roads".

It seems to be really one big crap shoot. And of course everybody seems to think theirs is correct. It's probably really just subconscious preferences and traditions coming through.

You do realize that the Mosaic Law, which is a revelation, is fulfilled but is still partially being followed? You do realize that you are here to be tested to the maximum, not the minimum? You do realize that The First Presidency and the Twelve hold the keys of the dispensation of the fulness of times and that though things may change and new revelation be given, the keys remain with them and with no one else and no other group of people on this planet either have nor can exercise those keys?
It is not wise to look at things that are changeable and impute lack of vision or inability to receive correct revelation that lasts forever. So many things have changed and so many things have not changed and so many things can never be changed, getting that right in a person's head may be one of the most difficult tests we face.

[BeNotDeceived]

timing, timing, timing

[simpleton]

Truth. All things change. Truth.

If you mentally lock yourself in to a certain point in existence/awareness/understanding, you cannot grow in awareness/understanding.
My God wants me to grow in awareness/understanding.

Why do you suppose God keeps spawning religions down here - because folks get stuck in their ways, their beliefs. They stop growing.

Remain open. Allow yourself to change and grow! as God guides you!

Every day I pray "make me more like You".

("My God" is, of course, the same as your God - we (may) just interpret the messages we receive differently!)

[John 14:12. “Greater Works Than These Shall He Do; Because I Go unto My Father”

It may sound startling to some to say that those who believe in Jesus Christ will do greater works than He did. However, the Lectures on Faith suggests that this statement is better understood in connection with the Savior’s teachings in John 17:20–24:] https://www.lds.org/study/manual/new-te ... 6?lang=eng

"God keeps spawning religions"? Now that is a good one. If that is God doing the "spawning" then He must be a changing God.
Again, truth is the same yesterday today and forever.....

James 17:

3Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16Do not err, my beloved brethren. 17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Mankind absolutely changes, for the better or for the worse. But God as shown above does not...
But mankind also is very volatile, from one day to the next, and mankind always seeks to do his own will instead of the will of the Father, and mankind is constantly seeking to change truth to fit his own ideas and ldeals...

[EmmaLee]

A few articles showing that the LDS Church believes truth and God do not change -

What is Truth? - https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ ... h?lang=eng

Absolute Truth - https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1978/0 ... h?lang=eng

Truth Endures - https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ ... s?lang=eng

The Laws of God - https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... d?lang=eng

God Does Not Change - https://www.lds.org/media-library/image ... 8?lang=eng

Constant Truths for Changing Times - https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng

[I AM]

I think you are assuming that the truth appropriate for one will be the same as the truth for another. Even if capitalized. it is not. We are not alike - oft similar, maybe, but ... To me the purpose of truth, for an individual is to help/encourage/push that individual to grow. in spiritual awareness and understanding. So a truth for tomorrow will likely not be the truth for today. unless you are not listening and trying to grow.

Challenge yourself!

---------------
so, you don't believe in Absolute truth then.
https://www.gotquestions.org/absolute-truth.html

and you said:
"So a truth for tomorrow will likely not be the truth for today"
so also you don't believe that God does not change.
https://www.allaboutgod.com/immutability-of-god.htm

Malachi 3
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

[Kris17]

What I wrote is valid from my perspective. I understand that it is not from yours. We are different. That's okay! afaiac

[Centerline]

It’s more like man’s ability to accept and live by God’s truth can and does change. In this world man has the ability to create, in some cases enforce, and live by his own truth, for a season.

[Kris17]

It’s more like man’s ability to accept and live by God’s truth can and does change. In this world man has the ability to create, in some cases enforce, and live by his own truth, for a season.

I agree with this, though for me it has nothing to do with what I said above. Be well!

[Kris17]

I think you are assuming that the truth appropriate for one will be the same as the truth for another. Even if capitalized. it is not. We are not alike - oft similar, maybe, but ... To me the purpose of truth, for an individual is to help/encourage/push that individual to grow. in spiritual awareness and understanding. So a truth for tomorrow will likely not be the truth for today. unless you are not listening and trying to grow.

Challenge yourself!

---------------
so, you don't believe in Absolute truth then.
https://www.gotquestions.org/absolute-truth.html

nope, at least I have not seen it there. There are certainly absolutes, though!

and you said:
"So a truth for tomorrow will likely not be the truth for today"
so also you don't believe that God does not change.
https://www.allaboutgod.com/immutability-of-god.htm

God the Is which includes us ,at this moment, does indeed change.

Malachi 3
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

yep, that's what the scribe says Yaweh said.

[Centerline]

Is there a difference between the “truth” and what a person can gain by recognizing and living by the “truth”? Just because a person is not capable of recognizing and using the “truth” to help/encourage/push them to grow today, because it was not appropriate for them at that time, does not mean the “truth” is not there.

[Kris17]

Is there a difference between the “truth” and what a person can gain by recognizing and living by the “truth”? Just because a person is not capable of recognizing and using the “truth” to help/encourage/push them to grow today, because it was not appropriate for them at that time, does not mean the “truth” is not there.

If one cannot see that something that another suggests is truth, what matter it. The whole purpose of guidance is to help one widen their perspective in a way that is more aligned with God. It matters not if someone else jumps up and down and says such and such is truth. It only matters if it helps. - is useful. to that one.

We're all in this God together! If you don't wish to help at any given moment, at least don't stand in the way.

And now I see I am a "captain" and simply because I have flapped my jaws (er fingers)! But I take it in fun!

[Centerline]

Yes, when a person is ready to learn a teacher appears. When I think of that statement I always wonder how many truths are there ready for me to find that I keep tripping and stepping over and never see. It’s amazing how you can keep going back to the scriptures and find things you never noticed before. I guess it only matters because it prompts me to search for understanding; to search for truths that are there that I have yet to understand.

Congrats fellow captain!

[Thinker]

So how do you figure out truth?
As we were discussing in another thread, both common sense and intuition (the Spirit) are needed. Logic/reason ought to be common sense, but that’s another story.

Let’s focus on the Spirit. When you get the chills, a burning in your bosom - exactly what does it mean?? Does it mean, “I need to get up walk 23 steps, into my car, to the airport, and fly like mad to romance in Fiji”?? Ok more realistic: does such sensation mean whatever I’m thinking when I feel this is indicative of what I need to do? What if I feel the Spirit watching Star Wars - does that mean I should begin Jedi training academy, (as Shadow dreams )?

The Spirit reminds me a bit of this miraculous world and universe - I often feel the Spirit as I gaze up into a star-filled sky, or feel the peace just being surrounded by nature. I don’t add extra meaning as if the Spirit is telling me I need to be an astronaut or live out of a tent. I think the Spirit is often a profound sense of gratitude and love... though sometimes it can be guidance - but that seems a bit different.

How do you distinguish between what you want or fear, and spiritual guidance? I have experienced warnings when I wasn’t thinking about it. Maybe the Spirit works in spiritual guidance, more when you allow for some sense of stillness but also trust in God. Also, I imagine a good sense of self-awareness is part of entering into the kingdom of God within.

[Alaris]

Isaiah 28:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 ¶ And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
13 ¶ But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.


I agree with what Original intent where I have many times drawn some element of (if not a completely) an incorrect conclusion, yet at the time I was still riding high on cloud 9 for having received a line or a precept. If God immediately zapped us with a "nope" when we connect the dots incorrectly, then this quest for knowledge would be a sour one until the very end when we come to know all things. But then why would we ever stay on this path? I love the process of discovery and lament the idea of knowing all things some day as there will be no discoveries of truth yet to unveil. Yet the fact this is a long, long ways off brings me comfort.

As for the policy change the Lord commands and rescinds as seeth Him fit and these changes more likely have to do with us than with an unchanging being:

56:4 Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord

6 For behold, I revoke the commandment which was given unto my servants Selah J. Griffin and Newel Knight, in consequence of the stiffneckedness of my people which are in Thompson, and their rebellions


My buddy showed me a screenshot of a fb friend's comment about how he'd been fasting to save the children of gays that was quite clearly holier than thou virtue signaling (Utah lol.) what if enough saints murmured at the last policy that the Lord instituted the change so we could see what happens when we give the gay community (the devil) an inch. Has anyone thought of that or expressed this possibility?

Ephraim is in such a state of pride right now. Imagine if the shtf (stuff hits the fan) soon. How quickly will those whining about the brethren run to them when times get tough? How many will acknowledge they were speaking ill of the Lords anointed just days or weeks before?

How many who have detested the brethren all along make their position clear and how many pretend they're just now losing faith?

[Thinker]

Alaris,
RE: your last few sentences...
I believe that this life is the time to do all we can to be closer to God, meaning in part, to enter into the kingdom of God - exploring our own psych-ology (study of the soul). It’s like my dad once told me with few words, when I didn’t want to go, “You can either get yourself there by your own initiative, or I will pick you up and take you kicking and screaming.” I’m not implying God would force us or take away free agency - but rather, if we don’t take a proactive approach on our spiritual development, or it can feel like life (or God or karma) keeps teaching us things we don’t want to learn.

We can’t predict or control future conditions. But we can have some sense of say or power in our own ability to respond - our spiritual development.