The Blessings and Rights of the Fathers

[Durzan]

Since we have quite a few discussions that took a rather negative turn, I'd thought that I could balance it out by starting a hopefully positive discussion on the meaning of the following quote from the Pearl of Great Price.

Abraham 1:1-5

1 In the land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my fathers, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence;

2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.

4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.

5 My fathers, having turned from their righteousness, and from the holy commandments which the Lord their God had given unto them, unto the worshiping of the gods of the heathen, utterly refused to hearken to my voice;

I ask you all... what are the Blessings and Rights of the Fathers that are spoken of in here?

Have you sought after the blessings and rights of our ancient fathers, even as Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and our more recent ancestors did? And have you done so in righteousness, even as Abraham has?

Discuss.

[marc]

I have studied this topic a number of years. I believe there is more to it that what is available to us today. Abraham was the last patriarch who had access to a patriarch (in a manner of speaking), thus obtaining the promises and rights of a father. It would be an overwhelming undertaking for me to put it all together, but someone else has done similar studies, though I'm not inclined to mention his name as it is not a popular name on this forum. But we're in the end times and as such could not practically become fathers of nations. Nephites and Lamanites are peoples of the first covenant (made to Abraham). Gentiles are being grafted in, but the age of patriarchs as far as I understand it is long past.

[dewajack]

The age of Patriarchs isn't long gone. In fact time itself is a chiasm, where things will repeat, such as Adam-ondi-Ahman, Zion, one like Moses leading believers, etc. We have to work our way back in order to fully move forward.

The Pearl of Great Price is trying to teach us of these things because it's relevant to our day (Moses 6:7). Also. Joseph Smith taught of these things.

[Durzan]

The age of Patriarchs isn't long gone. In fact time itself is a chiasm, where things will repeat, such as Adam-ondi-Ahman, Zion, one like Moses leading believers, etc. We have to work our way back in order to fully move forward.

The Pearl of Great Price is trying to teach us of these things because it's relevant to our day (Moses 6:7). Also. Joseph Smith taught of these things.

Interesting perspective. And its one that I can get behind.

Edit: Fleshed out the OP just a little bit more. Looking to get a general discussion going on this subject.

[marc]

The Lectures on Faith is probably the best tool given to us to understand what the "fathers" understood. There was first a father where certain knowledge could be passed on to a son.

LoF 2:54 We have now shown how it was that the first thought ever existed in the mind of any individual, that there was such a being as a God, who had created and did uphold all things: that it was by reason of the manifestation which he first made to our father Adam, when he stood in his presence, and conversed with him face to face, at the time of his creation.

55 Let us here observe, that after any portion of the human family are made acquainted with the important fact that there is a God who has created and does uphold all things, the extent of their knowledge, respecting his character and glory, will depend upon their diligence and faithfulness in seeking after him, until like Enoch the brother of Jared, and Moses, they shall obtain faith in God, and power with him to behold him face to face.

56 We have now clearly set forth how it is, and how it was, that God became an object of faith for rational beings; and also, upon what foundation the testimony was based, which excited the enquiry and diligent search of the ancient saints, to seek after and obtain a knowledge of the glory of God: and we have seen that it was human testimony, and human testimony only, that excited this enquiry, in the first instance in their minds—it was the credence they gave to the testimony of their fathers—this testimony having aroused their minds to enquire after the knowledge of God, the enquiry frequently terminated, indeed, always terminated, when rightly pursued, in the most glorious discoveries, and eternal certainty.

But consider that:

32 Not only was there a manifestation made unto Adam of the existence of a God, but Moses informs us, as before quoted, that God condescended to talk with Cain after his great transgression, in slaying his brother, and that Cain knew that it was the Lord that was talking with him: so that when he was driven out from the presence of his brethren, he carried with him the knowledge of the existence of a God: and through this means, doubtless his posterity became acquainted with the fact that such a being existed.

Therefore:

33 From this we can see that the whole human family, in the early age of their existence, in all their different branches, had this knowledge disseminated among them; so that the existence of God became an object of faith, in the early age of the world. And the evidences which these men had of the existence of a God, was the testimony of their fathers in the first instance.

Continuing:

34 The reason why we have been thus particular on this part of our subject, is, that this class may see by what means it was that God became an object of faith among men after the fall; and what it was that stirred up the faith of multitudes to feel after him; to search after a knowledge of his character, perfections and attributes, until they became extensively acquainted with him; and not only commune with him, and behold his glory, but be partakers of his power, and stand in his presence.

The patriarchs or fathers were partakers of the heavenly gift. Today there is no Old Testament type patriarch to excite in his son after inquiry to obtain the same knowledge of God. It is this knowledge that brings with it the fullness, which fullness the Lord offered to the saints through Joseph Smith. The Lectures on faith is a key, or perhaps a keyhole to a view of something greater, which has not existed since Joseph Smith. I don't doubt that the priesthood order after the Order of the Son of God will return, but a chiastic return? Well, that would be very interesting indeed. What will that look like?

[marc]

From something I wrote a couple years ago, which bears some relevance, but is a small stepping stone.

...Joseph Fielding Smith, who was called to a number of positions, including church historian (originally filled by Oliver Cowdery, then John Whitmer), apostle, church president and prophet, was the author of a number of books such as the five volume Answers to Gospel Questions. He also wrote a series of four volumes for use in church classrooms for the Melchizedek Priesthood in 1947. This series has long since been out of print, but can be found online. It is titled Church History and Modern Revelations. Lesson sixty-nine of this series, page 137, he writes the following:

“There were two schools conducted in Kirtland. One was a school of the Elders where they carried out some of the provisions of this revelation (Sec. 88) in seeking knowledge of countries and kingdoms and languages, all such information as may be gained in the regular daily school. It was in this school where many of the Elders, then residing in Kirtland, hired Dr. Seixas, a learned Hebrew scholar, and under his direction studied the Hebrew language. This school was conducted for several months and the Prophet, and others, became rather proficient in this language, due to the guidance of the Lord as much as that of the Hebrew scholar. This school proved to be of great benefit to these brethren in later years.

The other was the School of the Prophets, and a very good description of this school and its purpose is given in this section of the Doctrine and Covenants, verses 117 to the end of the section. In a letter written by the Prophet Joseph to William W. Phelps in Zion, January 14, 1833, the following appears: You will see that the Lord commanded us in Kirtland, to build a house of God, and established a school for the prophets, this is the word of the Lord to us, and we must, yea, the Lord helping us, we will obey: as on conditions of our obedience he has promised us great things; yea, even a visit from the heavens to honor us with his own presence. In an epistle written by commandment by Elders Orson Hyde and Hyrum Smith they have this to say to the Saints: We now close our epistle by saying unto you, the Lord has commanded us to purify ourselves, to wash our hands and our feet, that he may testify to his Father and our Father, to his God and to our God, that we are clean from the blood of this generation; and before we could wash our hands, and our feet, we were constrained to write this letter. Therefore, with the feeling of inexpressible anxiety for your welfare, we say again, Repent, repent, or Zion must suffer, for the scourge and judgment must come upon her. (D.H.C. 1:320.) The Prophet further writes: This winter (1832-3) was spent in translating the Scriptures; in the School of the Prophets; and sitting in conferences. I had many glorious seasons of refreshing. (D.H.C. 1:322.) This School of the Prophets and the schools where the ordinary branches were taught continued in Kirtland until the exodus from that place. It was for this school that the lectures on Faith were prepared and which were delivered to the Elders. The idea has been expressed that Sidney Rigdon wrote these lectures, but they were compiled by a number of the brethren and the Prophet himself had the final revision of them. They contain a great deal of excellent teaching on the principle of faith.

The School of the Prophets is not something new to this dispensation. In ancient Israel, especially in the days of Samuel, Elijah and Elisha, there was such a school. We read in I Samuel, tenth chapter, that after Samuel had, anointed Saul to be king of Israel he met a company of prophets and prophesied with them. In II Kings, chapter two, where we have the account of the translation of Elijah, we are told that a company of the sons of the prophets accompanied Elisha who was determined to follow Elijah. And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood in view afar off, and they two (Elijah and Elisha) stood by Jordan, and when Elisha returned to them after the departure of Elijah, these sons of the prophets discovered that the power of Elijah was upon Elisha.

The object for which this school was organized is plainly stated in the revelation. None could join except he was clean from the blood of this generation. The only way he could be clean was to be obedient to the covenants of the Gospel and labor in behalf of his fellows for the salvation of their souls. Thus the preaching of the Gospel was a requirement made of those who desired to join this school. The School of the Prophets continued in Utah for several years under the administration of President Brigham Young, but after that time it was discontinued...”

[marc]

3 Nephi 20:25 And behold, ye are the children of the prophets; and ye are of the house of Israel; and ye are of the covenant which the Father made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham: And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 The Father having raised me up unto you first, and sent me to bless you in turning away every one of you from his iniquities; and this because ye are the children of the covenant—

Mormon reiterated this in his final words to the Lamanites.

Mormon 7:10 And ye will also know that ye are a remnant of the seed of Jacob; therefore ye are numbered among the people of the first covenant

This is the covenant that the Lord made with Abraham. The Lord is still in the process of fulfilling His covenant with Abraham who was the last father. Being children of the prophets means being children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That is the lineage. The Book of Mormon is integral to that promise. There is a reason the Lord calls it the new covenant.

It is through the Gentiles that the Lamanites must be brought to a knowledge of their fathers:

3 Nephi 27:27 And after that ye were blessed then fulfilleth the Father the covenant which he made with Abraham, saying: In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed—unto the pouring out of the Holy Ghost through me upon the Gentiles, which blessing upon the Gentiles shall make them mighty above all, unto the scattering of my people, O house of Israel.

Jesus Christ explicitly summarizes this in Ether 4, which Moroni wrote:

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.

9 And at my command the heavens are opened and are shut; and at my word the earth shall shake; and at my command the inhabitants thereof shall pass away, even so as by fire.

10 And he that believeth not my words believeth not my disciples; and if it so be that I do not speak, judge ye; for ye shall know that it is I that speaketh, at the last day.

11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.

12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

Therefore, we may become children of the covenant, which the Lord is laboring to fulfill unto Abraham. I don't see another patriarch/father coming into view until the promise made to Abraham is fulfilled. This is not the first time I have written about these things, about the LoF, about the heavenly gift and other things, but they are subjects, which members largely just haven't been interested in. I don't pretend to know everything about these things, but I've done a LOT of studying and praying to understand more. We are left to patiently wait and to sanctify ourselves in the meantime. I don't see how anyone today can hope to become a "father" without the kind of sacrifice Abraham made to obtain that blessing. We cannot even try to live the law of consecration without becoming a "complete abortion," to quote a revelation given to Joseph Smith on the matter.

LoF 6:5 For a man to lay down his all, his character and reputation, his honor and applause, his good name among men, his houses, his lands, his brothers and sisters, his wife and children, and even his own life also, counting all things but filth and dross for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ, requires more than mere belief, or supposition that he is doing the will of God, but actual knowledge: realizing, that when these sufferings are ended he will enter into eternal rest; and be a partaker of the glory of God.

6 For unless a person does know that he is walking according to the will of God, it would be offering an insult to the dignity of the Creator, were he to say that he would be a partaker of his glory when he should be done with the things of this life. But when he has this knowledge, and most assuredly knows that he is doing the will of God, his confidence can be equally strong that he will be a partaker of the glory of God.

7 Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things: it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things, that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.

8 It is in vain for persons to fancy to themselves that they are heirs with those, or can be heirs with them, who have offered their all in sacrifice, and by this means obtained faith in God and favor with him so as to obtain eternal life, unless they in like manner offer unto him the same sacrifice, and through that offering obtain the knowledge that they are accepted of him.

[Alaris]

Joseph Smiths sermon on Elias, Elijah, Messiah is a great insight on this topic about receiving the fulness of the Priesthood which is what Abraham was seeking imho.

https://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks ... ssiah.HTML

[dewajack]

Abraham wasn't the last father to hold this blessing and right. Two patriarchs stood at the head of this dispensation, Hyrum & Joseph, who took their place as associates with the "fathers." Now of course, they would consider, Joseph, Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, and others as their fathers. Note the small (f).

[marc]

Abraham wasn't the last father to hold this blessing and right. Two patriarchs stood at the head of this dispensation, Hyrum & Joseph, who took their place as associates with the "fathers." Now of course, they would consider, Joseph, Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, and others as their fathers. Note the small (f).

Fair enough. Yes, I agree with you.

[cab]

There sure seems to be a mystery in this all. I believe there is an end times Elijah/ Davidic Servant / One Mighty and Strong figure that will come onto the scene, who along with other servants, will point the elect back to the covenants made to the patriarch fathers. It seems very VERY important that we don't miss this figure the way the Jews missed Jesus... I suspect he will be a temporal Savior for all the House of Israel.

And we really should stop the speculation about WHO he is.... Unless you've had a Nephi / BoJ / John the Beloved vision, I feel safe in saying that you don't know....

I will say that I fear that the church's notion of the "Spirit of Elijah" having everything to do with temple sealings and endless genealogies might be greatly flawed.... It simply is not scriptural... If you look at the history of when this doctrine first appeared, it seems to have it's genesis with Orson Pratt, who was attempting to explain the revelation later to become known as section 110... This revelation was discovered many years after Joseph Smith's death (around 1852), and when found the church had to try to figure out it's meaning and implications...

EDIT: We should wonder why Joseph and Oliver never seem to have discussed the marvelous events of Section 110 in their lifetimes (heavenly visitations of Moses, Elias, and Elijah!). Is it possible that perhaps it wasn't necessarily good news for that generation to have the "dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham" ushered in instead of the "dispensation of the fullness of times"? How bad was the condemnation or rejection that the church was laboring under? What did Joseph Smith know about the redemption of Zion (or lack thereof) as it related to the church he founded?

[Alaris]

There sure seems to be a mystery in this all. I believe there is an end times Elijah/ Davidic Servant / One Mighty and Strong figure that will come onto the scene, who along with other servants, will point the elect back to the covenants made to the patriarch fathers. It seems very VERY important that we don't miss this figure the way the Jews missed Jesus... I suspect he will be a temporal Savior for all the House of Israel.

And we really should stop the speculation about WHO he is.... Unless you've had a Nephi / BoJ / John the Beloved vision, I feel safe in saying that you don't know....

I will say that I fear that the church's notion of the "Spirit of Elijah" having everything to do with temple sealings and endless genealogies might be greatly flawed.... It simply is not scriptural... If you look at the history of when this doctrine first appeared, it seems to have it's genesis with Orson Pratt, who was attempting to explain the revelation later to become known as section 110... This revelation was discovered many years after Joseph Smith's death (around 1852), and when found the church had to try to figure out it's meaning and implications...

EDIT: We should wonder why Joseph and Oliver never seem to have discussed the marvelous events of Section 110 in their lifetimes (heavenly visitations of Moses, Elias, and Elijah!). Is it possible that perhaps it wasn't necessarily good news for that generation to have the "dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham" ushered in instead of the "dispensation of the fullness of times"? How bad was the condemnation or rejection that the church was laboring under? What did Joseph Smith know about the redemption of Zion (or lack thereof) as it related to the church he founded?

I agree with you about Elijah. Here's a quote straight from Joseph about what he believed:

Now for Elijah. The spirit, power, and calling of Elijah is, that ye have power to hold the key of the revelation, ordinances, oracles, powers and endowments of the fullness of the Melchizedek Priesthood and of the kingdom of God on the earth; and to receive, obtain, and perform all the ordinances belonging to the kingdom of God, even unto the turning of the hearts of the fathers unto the children, and the hearts of the children unto the fathers, even those who are in heaven.

We do not have the fullness of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood; and the Priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage.

The latter day King David is all about receiving the fulness of the Priesthood... The same rights and power Abraham sought.

[cab]

There sure seems to be a mystery in this all. I believe there is an end times Elijah/ Davidic Servant / One Mighty and Strong figure that will come onto the scene, who along with other servants, will point the elect back to the covenants made to the patriarch fathers. It seems very VERY important that we don't miss this figure the way the Jews missed Jesus... I suspect he will be a temporal Savior for all the House of Israel.

And we really should stop the speculation about WHO he is.... Unless you've had a Nephi / BoJ / John the Beloved vision, I feel safe in saying that you don't know....

I will say that I fear that the church's notion of the "Spirit of Elijah" having everything to do with temple sealings and endless genealogies might be greatly flawed.... It simply is not scriptural... If you look at the history of when this doctrine first appeared, it seems to have it's genesis with Orson Pratt, who was attempting to explain the revelation later to become known as section 110... This revelation was discovered many years after Joseph Smith's death (around 1852), and when found the church had to try to figure out it's meaning and implications...

EDIT: We should wonder why Joseph and Oliver never seem to have discussed the marvelous events of Section 110 in their lifetimes (heavenly visitations of Moses, Elias, and Elijah!). Is it possible that perhaps it wasn't necessarily good news for that generation to have the "dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham" ushered in instead of the "dispensation of the fullness of times"? How bad was the condemnation or rejection that the church was laboring under? What did Joseph Smith know about the redemption of Zion (or lack thereof) as it related to the church he founded?

I agree with you about Elijah. Here's a quote straight from Joseph about what he believed:

Now for Elijah. The spirit, power, and calling of Elijah is, that ye have power to hold the key of the revelation, ordinances, oracles, powers and endowments of the fullness of the Melchizedek Priesthood and of the kingdom of God on the earth; and to receive, obtain, and perform all the ordinances belonging to the kingdom of God, even unto the turning of the hearts of the fathers unto the children, and the hearts of the children unto the fathers, even those who are in heaven.

We do not have the fullness of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood; and the Priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage.

The latter day King David is all about receiving the fulness of the Priesthood... The same rights and power Abraham sought.

Yes, that sounds about right... Funny how we selectively ignore wonderful quotes like this from our prophet...

What are your thoughts on the "Spirit of Elijah" as understood by the lay membership of the church and our many countless hours spent indexing names and doing vicarious temple work?

I sometimes wonder if an objective outsider (Mormon 8:35) might almost observe that we've strayed somewhat from the simple doctrine of Christ (3 Nephi 11:38-40) and instead seem to be engaged in some kind of strange idolatrous worship of our own family units and our fine sanctuaries (2 Nephi 28:9,13-14) that has little to no support from the scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon (the keystone of our religion) ........

[Alaris]

Yes, that sounds about right... Funny how we selectively ignore wonderful quotes like this from our prophet...

What are your thoughts on the "Spirit of Elijah" as understood by the lay membership of the church and our many countless hours spent indexing names and doing vicarious temple work?

I sometimes wonder if an objective outsider (Mormon 8:35) might almost observe that we've strayed somewhat from the simple doctrine of Christ (3 Nephi 11:38-40) and instead seem to be engaged in some kind of strange idolatrous worship of our own family units and our fine sanctuaries (2 Nephi 28:9,13-14) that has little to no support from the scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon (the keystone of our religion) ........

I believe the saints tend to shoehorn many prophecies and scriptures into the "fulfilled" category for by our very nature it is easier to process them. If Elijah and his spirit and power relates to the fullness of the Melchizedek Priesthood, then this is clearly unfulfilled.

I do believe the temple ordinances are related - if you read the sermon from whence comes those quotes on Elijah by Joseph Smith, clearly the temple ordinances have something to do with it.

I wish you to understand this subject, for it is important; and if you will receive it, this is the spirit of Elijah, that we redeem our dead, and connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven, and seal up our dead to come forth in the first resurrection; and here we want the power of Elijah to seal those who dwell on earth to those who dwell in heaven. This is the power of Elijah and the keys of the kingdom of Jehovah.

Let us suppose a case. Suppose the great God who dwells in heaven should reveal Himself to Father Cutler here, by the opening heavens, and tell him, "I offer up a decree that whatsoever you seal on earth with your decree, I will seal it in heaven; you have the power then; can it be taken off? No. Then what you seal on earth, by the keys of Elijah. is sealed in heaven; and this is the power of Elijah, and this is the difference between the spirit and power of Elias and Elijah; for while the spirit of Elias is a forerunner, the power of Elijah is sufficient to make our calling and election sure; and the same doctrine, where we are exhorted to go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, &c.

However, that is only one piece of the puzzle. In fact, I believe the most widely misunderstood aspect of the work for the dead is this statement:

Now was this merely confined to the living, to settle difficulties with families on earth? By no means. It was a far greater work. Elijah! what would you do if you were here? Would you confine your work to the living alone? No; I would refer you to the Scriptures, where the subject is manifest: that is, without us, they could not be made perfect, nor we without them; the fathers without the children, nor the children without the fathers.
...
We cannot be perfect without the fathers, &c. We must have revelation from them, and we can see that the doctrine of revelation far transcends the doctrine of no revelation; for one truth revealed from heaven is worth all the sectarian notions in existence.

The first quote actually goes right between the two paragraphs above. I separated them out to illustrate the misunderstood point - or at least the "not fully understood point." We cannot be perfect without the fathers. We must have revelation from them. On the other hand, the "children" cannot progress without said revelation. See? This isn't just temple ordinances. This co-dependency on eternal progression reinforces my understanding that the priests and kings that we are anointed to become in the temple - and that we are expressly not presently - are here in the form of Apostles and Dispensation heads. By them we receive the revelation that we depend. By us the children receive the ordinances and gospel they need to progress. The priests and kings cannot progress without children to guide and children cannot progress without priests and kings to guide them. This time and season has been the time and season of Ephraim - who is between the Levites and the Priests in our eternal progression. We are aligned to the Law of the Gospel in the temple and we require subjects who we can teach and offer saving ordinances for our own progression from smaller capacities to greater.

I wish you to understand this subject, for it is important; and if you will receive it, this is the spirit of Elijah, that we redeem our dead, and connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven, and seal up our dead to come forth in the first resurrection; and here we want the power of Elijah to seal those who dwell on earth to those who dwell in heaven. This is the power of Elijah and the keys of the kingdom of Jehovah.

The hearts of the fathers and the children is largely understood to mean a linear progression of earth's family along a timeline. However, I believe Joseph is teaching a far greater principle - that the fathers are those who we are aspiring to become, and the children are those souls who are younger on their eternal progression rather than born in the end times necessarily.

[marc]

The spirit of Elijah aside, is there anyone here who does not believe that they may obtain the same blessings of the fathers mentioned? If so, would they disagree that such blessings are obtained by obedience to the laws and commandments upon which those profound blessings are predicated? Without offering the kinds of sacrifices made by those fathers, can we number ourselves as heirs with them who have offered their all, withholding not even their own lives? And if God is no respector of persons and if there are any such believers today, how many are quietly on this journey? Food for thought.

[cab]

Yes, that sounds about right... Funny how we selectively ignore wonderful quotes like this from our prophet...

What are your thoughts on the "Spirit of Elijah" as understood by the lay membership of the church and our many countless hours spent indexing names and doing vicarious temple work?

I sometimes wonder if an objective outsider (Mormon 8:35) might almost observe that we've strayed somewhat from the simple doctrine of Christ (3 Nephi 11:38-40) and instead seem to be engaged in some kind of strange idolatrous worship of our own family units and our fine sanctuaries (2 Nephi 28:9,13-14) that has little to no support from the scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon (the keystone of our religion) ........

I believe the saints tend to shoehorn many prophecies and scriptures into the "fulfilled" category for by our very nature it is easier to process them. If Elijah and his spirit and power relates to the fullness of the Melchizedek Priesthood, then this is clearly unfulfilled.

I do believe the temple ordinances are related - if you read the sermon from whence comes those quotes on Elijah by Joseph Smith, clearly the temple ordinances have something to do with it.

I wish you to understand this subject, for it is important; and if you will receive it, this is the spirit of Elijah, that we redeem our dead, and connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven, and seal up our dead to come forth in the first resurrection; and here we want the power of Elijah to seal those who dwell on earth to those who dwell in heaven. This is the power of Elijah and the keys of the kingdom of Jehovah.

Let us suppose a case. Suppose the great God who dwells in heaven should reveal Himself to Father Cutler here, by the opening heavens, and tell him, "I offer up a decree that whatsoever you seal on earth with your decree, I will seal it in heaven; you have the power then; can it be taken off? No. Then what you seal on earth, by the keys of Elijah. is sealed in heaven; and this is the power of Elijah, and this is the difference between the spirit and power of Elias and Elijah; for while the spirit of Elias is a forerunner, the power of Elijah is sufficient to make our calling and election sure; and the same doctrine, where we are exhorted to go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, &c.

However, that is only one piece of the puzzle. In fact, I believe the most widely misunderstood aspect of the work for the dead is this statement:

Now was this merely confined to the living, to settle difficulties with families on earth? By no means. It was a far greater work. Elijah! what would you do if you were here? Would you confine your work to the living alone? No; I would refer you to the Scriptures, where the subject is manifest: that is, without us, they could not be made perfect, nor we without them; the fathers without the children, nor the children without the fathers.
...
We cannot be perfect without the fathers, &c. We must have revelation from them, and we can see that the doctrine of revelation far transcends the doctrine of no revelation; for one truth revealed from heaven is worth all the sectarian notions in existence.

The first quote actually goes right between the two paragraphs above. I separated them out to illustrate the misunderstood point - or at least the "not fully understood point." We cannot be perfect without the fathers. We must have revelation from them. On the other hand, the "children" cannot progress without said revelation. See? This isn't just temple ordinances. This co-dependency on eternal progression reinforces my understanding that the priests and kings that we are anointed to become in the temple - and that we are expressly not presently - are here in the form of Apostles and Dispensation heads. By them we receive the revelation that we depend. By us the children receive the ordinances and gospel they need to progress. The priests and kings cannot progress without children to guide and children cannot progress without priests and kings to guide them. This time and season has been the time and season of Ephraim - who is between the Levites and the Priests in our eternal progression. We are aligned to the Law of the Gospel in the temple and we require subjects who we can teach and offer saving ordinances for our own progression from smaller capacities to greater.

I wish you to understand this subject, for it is important; and if you will receive it, this is the spirit of Elijah, that we redeem our dead, and connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven, and seal up our dead to come forth in the first resurrection; and here we want the power of Elijah to seal those who dwell on earth to those who dwell in heaven. This is the power of Elijah and the keys of the kingdom of Jehovah.

The hearts of the fathers and the children is largely understood to mean a linear progression of earth's family along a timeline. However, I believe Joseph is teaching a far greater principle - that the fathers are those who we are aspiring to become, and the children are those souls who are younger on their eternal progression rather than born in the end times necessarily.

Good thoughts. Joseph definitely appeared to have understanding of principles that never have been fully grasped by the Saints. No doubt, Elijah and his sealing power have definite implications on the Kingdom of God in the last days, heading into the millennium.

In all that Joseph taught, I have a hard time seeing our happy-go-lucky "families are forever" doctrine of today. Would Joseph recognize our church as the one he founded? I don't know.

Certainly the purpose of the Melchizedek priesthood is supposed to be to sanctify a people sufficiently to be prepared to part the veil to commune with "the fathers", the Church of the Firstborn" and the Lord himself in a terrestrial state (D&C 84:19-27, D&C 107: 18-20). Is this spiritual endowment happening today? I don't believe so.

When we talk of the sealing power, and I mean the real sealing power of Elijah or Nephi and Lehi (sons of Nephi, grandsons of Helaman ), I wonder if Joseph was attempting some creative leveraging of God's promises.... In his teachings, he seems to identify the fathers as exalted beings (who had achieved their calling and election made sure), and also knew he had himself received a promise of exaltation... With this knowledge, did he then begin attempting to seal both men and women to himself (and maybe others in the Quorum of the Anointed??)?

Was this Joseph teaching about Celestial Plural Marriage - as Brigham, Heber, Orson, et al later taught? I very very seriously question that. Was it a teaching of eternal families - as we now teach it today? I somewhat question this too.... I don't see either of these two possibilities in the scriptures (meaning the scriptures that existed up to that point).

Unfortunately we have inherited some very incomplete and questionable history, and most of what led to becoming our temple rituals and marriage rites were allegedly given to the Twelve behind closed doors... That said, I am confident that our endowment ceremony does contain many true and profound keys that point us in the direction of the Lord and how to part the veil and become clean before him.

I suggest a MAJOR problem that we have as a people is that we accept the lesser portion as the greater. We.believe that once we are baptized by water that we have "entered the gate". Not so. We believe that when we go through the temple endowment ceremony that we are then endowed. Not so. We believe that once we are married in the temple that we are then sealed to our spouse. Again, not so. All these temporal ordinances point us toward a real spiritual experience as the fulfillment of a covenant they represent. They are not the event themselves.

As for much of our history, including many quotes attributed to Joseph Smith, we are left with the challenge of being asked to believe men, at their word, who later went "all in" on the principle of Celestial Plural marriage - which bore some not so delightful fruit... If we question the words of these men too harshly, or measure their doctrines against scripture in a negative light, then we are branded apostate or heretics... If we believe them at their word, because we believe our leaders can never ever lead us astray, I fear we may be in danger of becoming foolish virgins - who've relied on borrowed light to our detriment... It's tough going...

I guess these are all some of the many reasons why I try to choose to focus on the simple doctrine of Christ, and the need to be spiritually begotten of Him, as the only thing that will have power to withstand the storms that are sure to come...

[cab]

The spirit of Elijah aside, is there anyone here who does not believe that they may obtain the same blessings of the fathers mentioned? If so, would they disagree that such blessings are obtained by obedience to the laws and commandments upon which those profound blessings are predicated? Without offering the kinds of sacrifices made by those fathers, can we number ourselves as heirs with them who have offered their all, withholding not even their own lives? And if God is no respector of persons and if there are any such believers today, how many are quietly on this journey? Food for thought.

Yep, I'm definitely thinking about it.... And trying to repent of my own foolishness and arrogance and to submit my will to the Lord.

I agree with you. It's almost as if we want to lay claim to all the promised blessings of scripture, none of the warned cursings, all while ignoring the conditions upon which either (blessings or cursings) are predicated...

[John Tavner]

I agree with this - second witness.

[Alaris]

Good thoughts. Joseph definitely appeared to have understanding of principles that never have been fully grasped by the Saints. No doubt, Elijah and his sealing power have definite implications on the Kingdom of God in the last days, heading into the millennium.

Agreed

In all that Joseph taught, I have a hard time seeing our happy-go-lucky "families are forever" doctrine of today. Would Joseph recognize our church as the one he founded? I don't know.

Disagreed - Our "families are forever" doctrine is both happy and lucky.

Certainly the purpose of the Melchizedek priesthood is supposed to be to sanctify a people sufficiently to be prepared to part the veil to commune with "the fathers", the Church of the Firstborn" and the Lord himself in a terrestrial state (D&C 84:19-27, D&C 107: 18-20). Is this spiritual endowment happening today? I don't believe so.

When we talk of the sealing power, and I mean the real sealing power of Elijah or Nephi and Lehi (sons of Nephi, grandsons of Helaman ), I wonder if Joseph was attempting some creative leveraging of God's promises.... In his teachings, he seems to identify the fathers as exalted beings (who had achieved their calling and election made sure), and also knew he had himself received a promise of exaltation... With this knowledge, did he then begin attempting to seal both men and women to himself (and maybe others in the Quorum of the Anointed??)?

I think I somewhat understand what you're saying here and partially agree. I do believe we have the power to seal families; however, we certainly do not have the same sealing power Nephi had.

Was this Joseph teaching about Celestial Plural Marriage - as Brigham, Heber, Orson, et al later taught? I very very seriously question that. Was it a teaching of eternal families - as we now teach it today? I somewhat question this too.... I don't see either of these two possibilities in the scriptures (meaning the scriptures that existed up to that point).

We are anointed to become priests and kings in the temple. Joseph was of the higher order which is why he was preparing the apostles, the priests, to receive the Father. In the temple, our endowment is tailored to receiving the Son. I believe polygamy isn't really practiced at our spiritual level - at least not like it is for the priests and kings. I really don't believe sexuality in the eternities is the same as it is here on earth. The act may be similar, but it's far more spiritual - (and certainly can be more spiritual here than most realize) - than our earthly / telestial understanding of sex. I believe the practice of polygamy in our church is reflective of the fact that we had a dispensation prince and many priests who started this dispensation. Over time, we have just had priests who continue moving the church forward - the especial witnesses of Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately we have inherited some very incomplete and questionable history, and most of what led to becoming our temple rituals and marriage rites were allegedly given to the Twelve behind closed doors... That said, I am confident that our endowment ceremony does contain many true and profound keys that point us in the direction of the Lord and how to part the veil and become clean before him.

I have found no indication that our endowment is incomplete or has any significant error. I believe the changes in our endowment is a reflection of continued revelation, and I believe the changes are a reflection in the changes in the times and seasons of Earth and those souls who are upon it. I don't know how old you are, but have you noticed how each generation seems to have its own set of strengths and weaknesses? I believe sub-classes of beings are born largely together. My parents' generation, for example, well ... nevermind. Let's just say there was an awful lot of similar funkyness going on while the endowment still carried those explicit penalties.

I suggest a MAJOR problem that we have as a people is that we accept the lesser portion as the greater. We.believe that once we are baptized by water that we have "entered the gate". Not so. We believe that when we go through the temple endowment ceremony that we are then endowed. Not so. We believe that once we are married in the temple that we are then sealed to our spouse. Again, not so. All these temporal ordinances point us toward a real spiritual experience as the fulfillment of a covenant they represent. They are not the event themselves.

Totally, enthusiastically agreed. Take the "new name" for example. This is but an indication that we have a new name and what it means as we ponder and seek to unlock these personal mysteries. How many saints believe the new name given in the temple is their actual new name? Though it's possible that every male who went through the Oakland temple the day I received my new name coincidentally had the same new name in the premortal life ... I highly, strongly doubt that. What this "new name" is supposed to do, imho, is to prompt individuals to go seek out a direct relationship with the Lord to discover what theirs actually is. Who you were is a key to discovering where you are on your personal journey and the covenants you made before this life. I'm still working on this myself.

As for much of our history, including many quotes attributed to Joseph Smith, we are left with the challenge of being asked to believe men, at their word, who later went "all in" on the principle of Celestial Plural marriage - which bore some not so delightful fruit... If we question the words of these men too harshly, or measure their doctrines against scripture in a negative light, then we are branded apostate or heretics... If we believe them at their word, because we believe our leaders can never ever lead us astray, I fear we may be in danger of becoming foolish virgins - who've relied on borrowed light to our detriment... It's tough going...

Agreed - you may believe I'm sort of an "apologist" for our current, collective condition in the church. Far from it. Though I believe we are doing well collectively all things considered, the struggles I witness at my local level drives me bonkers. The cliques, the "we have enough" attitudes, the focus on numbers over people, the lack of seeking, the lack of humility, the caring more what people think than what God thinks - but truly understanding who we are collectively and where we are on our eternal journey suddenly brings all these issues in their proper light. We struggle with pornography, for example, because we are not priests yet. The priests are aligned to the next law in the temple - the Law of Chastity - which is a higher law than "Though shalt not commit adultery" for this is a law of making our minds a sacred space. Until we can make our minds a sacred space, we cannot be of one heart and one mind. This is why we failed to bring ZION - we're just not there yet spiritually. The 144,000 are and will come down and assist with the building of ZION because they are "virgins" according to Revelation (7 or 14 - 14 I think.) They are married, no doubt, likely to many wives. But their minds are a sacred space, which is why they are allowed to practice polygamy and we are not imho.

I guess these are all some of the many reasons why I try to choose to focus on the simple doctrine of Christ, and the need to be spiritually begotten of Him, as the only thing that will have power to withstand the storms that are sure to come...

The best thing we can all do is ask, seek, and knock. According to the principles in 2 Nephi 28 and Alma 12, and 3 Nephi 26, we must always be seeking or we will be losing what we have until the devil takes hold. You can see this principle in action at church and in these forums. Those who believe the sealed 2/3 is a ZION manual and that there are no greater revelations than what we have need but read 3 Nephi 26 or hearken to President Nelson's recent comments about the church not being fully restored:

3 Nephi 26:8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

[cab]

Good thoughts. Joseph definitely appeared to have understanding of principles that never have been fully grasped by the Saints. No doubt, Elijah and his sealing power have definite implications on the Kingdom of God in the last days, heading into the millennium.

Agreed

In all that Joseph taught, I have a hard time seeing our happy-go-lucky "families are forever" doctrine of today. Would Joseph recognize our church as the one he founded? I don't know.

Disagreed - Our "families are forever" doctrine is both happy and lucky.

Certainly the purpose of the Melchizedek priesthood is supposed to be to sanctify a people sufficiently to be prepared to part the veil to commune with "the fathers", the Church of the Firstborn" and the Lord himself in a terrestrial state (D&C 84:19-27, D&C 107: 18-20). Is this spiritual endowment happening today? I don't believe so.

When we talk of the sealing power, and I mean the real sealing power of Elijah or Nephi and Lehi (sons of Nephi, grandsons of Helaman ), I wonder if Joseph was attempting some creative leveraging of God's promises.... In his teachings, he seems to identify the fathers as exalted beings (who had achieved their calling and election made sure), and also knew he had himself received a promise of exaltation... With this knowledge, did he then begin attempting to seal both men and women to himself (and maybe others in the Quorum of the Anointed??)?

I think I somewhat understand what you're saying here and partially agree. I do believe we have the power to seal families; however, we certainly do not have the same sealing power Nephi had.

Was this Joseph teaching about Celestial Plural Marriage - as Brigham, Heber, Orson, et al later taught? I very very seriously question that. Was it a teaching of eternal families - as we now teach it today? I somewhat question this too.... I don't see either of these two possibilities in the scriptures (meaning the scriptures that existed up to that point).

We are anointed to become priests and kings in the temple. Joseph was of the higher order which is why he was preparing the apostles, the priests, to receive the Father. In the temple, our endowment is tailored to receiving the Son. I believe polygamy isn't really practiced at our spiritual level - at least not like it is for the priests and kings. I really don't believe sexuality in the eternities is the same as it is here on earth. The act may be similar, but it's far more spiritual - (and certainly can be more spiritual here than most realize) - than our earthly / telestial understanding of sex. I believe the practice of polygamy in our church is reflective of the fact that we had a dispensation prince and many priests who started this dispensation. Over time, we have just had priests who continue moving the church forward - the especial witnesses of Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately we have inherited some very incomplete and questionable history, and most of what led to becoming our temple rituals and marriage rites were allegedly given to the Twelve behind closed doors... That said, I am confident that our endowment ceremony does contain many true and profound keys that point us in the direction of the Lord and how to part the veil and become clean before him.

I have found no indication that our endowment is incomplete or has any significant error. I believe the changes in our endowment is a reflection of continued revelation, and I believe the changes are a reflection in the changes in the times and seasons of Earth and those souls who are upon it. I don't know how old you are, but have you noticed how each generation seems to have its own set of strengths and weaknesses? I believe sub-classes of beings are born largely together. My parents' generation, for example, well ... nevermind. Let's just say there was an awful lot of similar funkyness going on while the endowment still carried those explicit penalties.

I suggest a MAJOR problem that we have as a people is that we accept the lesser portion as the greater. We.believe that once we are baptized by water that we have "entered the gate". Not so. We believe that when we go through the temple endowment ceremony that we are then endowed. Not so. We believe that once we are married in the temple that we are then sealed to our spouse. Again, not so. All these temporal ordinances point us toward a real spiritual experience as the fulfillment of a covenant they represent. They are not the event themselves.

Totally, enthusiastically agreed. Take the "new name" for example. This is but an indication that we have a new name and what it means as we ponder and seek to unlock these personal mysteries. How many saints believe the new name given in the temple is their actual new name? Though it's possible that every male who went through the Oakland temple the day I received my new name coincidentally had the same new name in the premortal life ... I highly, strongly doubt that. What this "new name" is supposed to do, imho, is to prompt individuals to go seek out a direct relationship with the Lord to discover what theirs actually is. Who you were is a key to discovering where you are on your personal journey and the covenants you made before this life. I'm still working on this myself.

As for much of our history, including many quotes attributed to Joseph Smith, we are left with the challenge of being asked to believe men, at their word, who later went "all in" on the principle of Celestial Plural marriage - which bore some not so delightful fruit... If we question the words of these men too harshly, or measure their doctrines against scripture in a negative light, then we are branded apostate or heretics... If we believe them at their word, because we believe our leaders can never ever lead us astray, I fear we may be in danger of becoming foolish virgins - who've relied on borrowed light to our detriment... It's tough going...

Agreed - you may believe I'm sort of an "apologist" for our current, collective condition in the church. Far from it. Though I believe we are doing well collectively all things considered, the struggles I witness at my local level drives me bonkers. The cliques, the "we have enough" attitudes, the focus on numbers over people, the lack of seeking, the lack of humility, the caring more what people think than what God thinks - but truly understanding who we are collectively and where we are on our eternal journey suddenly brings all these issues in their proper light. We struggle with pornography, for example, because we are not priests yet. The priests are aligned to the next law in the temple - the Law of Chastity - which is a higher law than "Though shalt not commit adultery" for this is a law of making our minds a sacred space. Until we can make our minds a sacred space, we cannot be of one heart and one mind. This is why we failed to bring ZION - we're just not there yet spiritually. The 144,000 are and will come down and assist with the building of ZION because they are "virgins" according to Revelation (7 or 14 - 14 I think.) They are married, no doubt, likely to many wives. But their minds are a sacred space, which is why they are allowed to practice polygamy and we are not imho.

I guess these are all some of the many reasons why I try to choose to focus on the simple doctrine of Christ, and the need to be spiritually begotten of Him, as the only thing that will have power to withstand the storms that are sure to come...

The best thing we can all do is ask, seek, and knock. According to the principles in 2 Nephi 28 and Alma 12, and 3 Nephi 26, we must always be seeking or we will be losing what we have until the devil takes hold. You can see this principle in action at church and in these forums. Those who believe the sealed 2/3 is a ZION manual and that there are no greater revelations than what we have need but read 3 Nephi 26 or hearken to President Nelson's recent comments about the church not being fully restored:

3 Nephi 26:8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

Thanks Alaris... You have some wonderful thoughts that I will prayerfully consider. You appear to be an honest and diligent seeker and to have been blessed in that pursuit. It surely is a wonderful and terrible time in which we live!

We must not stop seeking and knocking at the Lord's mercy seat, and do all we can to do first repent, then make covenant, and then receive the name of the Son (through the spiritual rebirth he's promised and as taught in the temple), and then begin to receive heavenly instructions from on high (as also taught in the temple)!

Thanks Brother!

[Rand]

Since we have quite a few discussions that took a rather negative turn, I'd thought that I could balance it out by starting a hopefully positive discussion on the meaning of the following quote from the Pearl of Great Price.

Abraham 1:1-5

1 In the land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my fathers, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence;

2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.

4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.

5 My fathers, having turned from their righteousness, and from the holy commandments which the Lord their God had given unto them, unto the worshiping of the gods of the heathen, utterly refused to hearken to my voice;

I ask you all... what are the Blessings and Rights of the Fathers that are spoken of in here.?

Have you sought after the blessings and rights of our ancient fathers, even as Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and our more recent ancestors did? And have you done so in righteousness, even as Abraham has?

discuss.

This is an interesting topic. I will only share a small comment, as I think these are things that should be taught by the spirit and cautiously discussed in public settings.
I think the blessings of the Fathers is only available to one who has reached the Priesthood role of Father. This role, or better said, order, is reached as on becomes a Son, a Savior on Mount Zion and finally a Father. We begin this journey as sons and daughters of Christ.

[marc]

Th blessing of knowledge given to the fathers is His glory. To be saved is to gain knowledge. Joseph Smith said that a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge. Being brought back into God's presence to abide His glory is to know Him. To know Him is to rend the veil, having faith no longer. This is the fulcrum of the message of the Lectures on Faith and the religion of the patriarchs.

LoF 2:2 We here observe that God is the only supreme governor, and independent being, in whom all fulness and perfection dwells; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life; and that in him every good gift, and every good principle dwells; and that he is the Father of lights: In him the principle of faith dwells independently; and he is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers, for life and salvation.

God alone must be the object of one's faith in order to obtain life with Him. Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven whereby one is saved. To exercise faith in anyone other than Him is to grow weary in your mind and faint. This includes the leaders of any church. They have no power to redeem or to resurrect. Abraham obeyed the Lord in offering up Isaac, because he had a relationship with the Lord. He had a knowledge that the course he had been pursuing was according to God's will. It would have been an otherwise horrifying experience for him to just guess that maybe it was another voice speaking to him all this time, especially considering that he was at one time made an offering to some idol god. Or if you were were hated by everyone around you and suffered some kind of speech impediment, your self esteem might be such that you never think you could utter words and cause mountains to break up and seas to divide, to dry up waters and turn them from their courses, to set at defiance the armies of nations, or to stand in the presence of God.

If you're not comfortable getting uncomfortable, being inconvenienced, doing things you would rather not, out of unbelief, indifference, fear, or doubt, you cannot pretend to be heirs with the likes of Enoch, Abraham, Moses, the brother of Jared and Joseph Smith. The status quo, so to speak, in our church is to do the bare minimum. That is the current standard. Wo unto him who is at ease in Zion.

[cab]

Since we have quite a few discussions that took a rather negative turn, I'd thought that I could balance it out by starting a hopefully positive discussion on the meaning of the following quote from the Pearl of Great Price.

Abraham 1:1-5

1 In the land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my fathers, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence;

2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.

4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.

5 My fathers, having turned from their righteousness, and from the holy commandments which the Lord their God had given unto them, unto the worshiping of the gods of the heathen, utterly refused to hearken to my voice;

I ask you all... what are the Blessings and Rights of the Fathers that are spoken of in here.?

Have you sought after the blessings and rights of our ancient fathers, even as Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and our more recent ancestors did? And have you done so in righteousness, even as Abraham has?

discuss.

This is an interesting topic. I will only share a small comment, as I think these are things that should be taught by the spirit and cautiously discussed in public settings.
I think the blessings of the Fathers is only available to one who has reached the Priesthood role of Father. This role, or better said, order, is reached as on becomes a Son, a Savior on Mount Zion and finally a Father. We begin this journey as sons and daughters of Christ.

The question is - when do we become sons and daughters of Christ and begin this journey? I have heard this taught to be a long, drawn out process that occurs imperceptibly "like the morning dew". I have also heard this taught to occur when we have hands laid on our head and given the invitation to "receive the Holy Ghost" or even when we have received all the "saving ordinances (baptism, confirmation, temple, sealing)". The scriptures do not support these traditions. Rather the scriptures indicate that the temporal/physical ordinances all serve to point our souls to Christ and an actual spiritual fulfillment that only he can give.

The scriptures clearly describe that this event (and it is an event) occurs when we have gone through the process (and this is a process) of truly submitting to the Lord with a broken heart and contrite spirit in full humility. Then we can expect the event known as any of the following (and more): the mighty change of heart, baptism of fire, baptism of the Holy Ghost, being born again, being born of God, being born of Christ, being spiritually begotten of Christ, receiving a remission of sins, quickening of the Holy Ghost, receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, receiving the Holy Ghost, entering the promised land, partaking of the tree of life, obtaining the gift of charity, obtaining hope in Christ, entering the gate, becoming a son/daughter of God/Christ, taking the name of Christ upon us, becoming a new creature in Christ, the Pentecostal outpouring, receiving the testimony of Jesus, endowment of power, singing the song of redeeming love etc. etc etc.

This is what happened to Lehi when he saw a pillar of fire (1 Nephi 1:6). This is what happened to Nephi when he was first visited by the Lord and had his heart softened (1 Nephi 2:16). This is what happened to Enos, King Benjamin's people, Alma Senior, Alma the Younger, sons of Mosiah, Lamoni, Lamoni's father, Lamoni's father's household, the people of Ammon, the Lamanites taught by Nephi/Lehi in Helaman 5, the Nephites who narrowly escapted destruction (3 Nephi 9:13, 19-20 and 3 Nephi chapter 19), Mormon and Moroni, the apostles and disciples in Acts chapter 2, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery (JSH 1:73-74), and Father Adam (Moses 6:64-66), etc etc etc.

This is when the temporal ordinance of water baptism is completed with it's spiritual fulfillment. This is when our offering becomes acceptable. This is what the sacrament points us towards (empowered to always remember Him and have His spirit with us). This is when we actually become endowed from on high, clean garments, and are prepared to receive a "robe of righteousness", the associated priesthood powers, and receive the name of the "Son", as we are pointed towards in the temple. The is the fullness of the gospel which the Book of Mormon contains. This is the doctrine of Christ (2 Nephi 31 and 32, 3 Nephi 11:35-40).

[Rand]

I appreciate your comments and mostly agree with them, although I think you are combining a few different steps that should not be combined as I think they are sequential, but basically good comments.
If you were asking the question of "how do I know it has occurred", I would respond when we show the fruits of that transformation. What are the fruits of that transformation? That is the big take home. Everyone wants to have the second comforter, and receive the blessings that supposedly accompany that visit. But, until we do what the prophets you mentioned above have done, go out and proclaim the word, cry repentance, and follow the Lord into whatever He will lead us into with patience and virtue, we are not prepared to receive the blessings of that comforter. We are only complete enough to receive the full blessings of that second comforter when we have brought others to Christ as did Abraham, Enos, and endured through all opposition, etc.

[marc]

Mosiah 15:10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?

Who indeed? Who will rise up? Jesus Christ saw who would choose to do so.

One must be born of the Spirit to become a son or daughter. When Alma was confronted by the angel and awoke three days later, he declared:

Mosiah 27:24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

When King Benjamin was visited by an angel, he was instructed to teach his people and to give them good news. And because they had repented and had no more desire to do evil, they were spiritually begotten of the Lord:

Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

When you have been born again, or rather born of the Spirit, you have become a son or daughter, being spiritually begotten of Christ.