Members cleaning the church buildings

[thestock]

Apologies in advance for the long post.

My wife and I have been discussing this for years and we have come to the conclusion that we no longer support this program.

Before we had kids, our ward had a coordinator who would ask people based on their last name to show up. For example if your last name started A - G then you were asked to come help that Saturday morning to clean. We did it several times, and it was usually a 45 minute thing.

After we had kids (3 kids under 3 years old, including twins) our lives were thrown into chaos. Our own house was never clean, let alone food ever made or my wife and I even sane during that time. Between work, chores, child rearing, and church calling (I was in EQ Presidency, she was Compassionate service coordinator), we felt we could no longer support the Church cleaning program. Part of this was pride....we felt "If we have the extra hour, which we dont, we will clean our OWN HOUSE FIRST."

Another part of this was a sense of personal responsibility, as well as the Church's charge to care for the poor. When we go to Church, our kids leave a mess of food and torn bits of paper in the pews after Sacrament. After each meeting, my wife and I get down on our hands and knees and meticulously clean up after our family before exiting the chapel. When one of us organizes an event at the church or uses any church facility for an event or calling or meeting, we take personal responsibility to make sure the space is clean once the activity is over. Bottom line, we clean up after ourselves.

We've also become a bit perplexed at how easy it is for the church to cut a check for someone struggling to meet their rent, but how much the Church relies upon hardworking members to do basic things. We feel each ward could EASILY be given a cleaning budget to be used with prudence....say $400 a year. How hard would it be for a bishop to offer church cleaning work to families who are struggling from time to time. Essentially pay them to clean the church using the budget rather than just cut them a check and then ask other members to come clean for free?

Bottom line: my wife and I no longer support this program. We just moved to a new state and in our new ward we were immediately given callings, which we accepted. On Tuesday we were emailed, along with another couple, by the cleaning coordinator informing us that we had been "assigned" to clean the building with this other family and how we did it was up to us....we could go on a weekday evening (I get home at 8pm and we feed and put down 3 kids 4 years and under.....so....no thanks!) or that we could go on Saturday (again....no thanks!).

I cordially emailed the coordinator back, explained that my wife and I have made a decision to serve to our capacity, and that we have decided we will not accept an individual assignment to clean the church. I understand being new in the ward this might cost us in the court of public opinion about our family....but we believe blindly saying "yes" can be costly to a family and learning to say "no" is important, especially to support the way we strongly feel about this program.

I just wanted to get some feedback or thoughts about the way we handled this and the church cleaning program in general. Thank you!!

[John Tavner]

Apologies in advance for the long post.

My wife and I have been discussing this for years and we have come to the conclusion that we no longer support this program.

Before we had kids, our ward had a coordinator who would ask people based on their last name to show up. For example if your last name started A - G then you were asked to come help that Saturday morning to clean. We did it several times, and it was usually a 45 minute thing.

After we had kids (3 kids under 3 years old, including twins) our lives were thrown into chaos. Our own house was never clean, let alone food ever made or my wife and I even sane during that time. Between work, chores, child rearing, and church calling (I was in EQ Presidency, she was Compassionate service coordinator), we felt we could no longer support the Church cleaning program. Part of this was pride....we felt "If we have the extra hour, which we dont, we will clean our OWN HOUSE FIRST."

Another part of this was a sense of personal responsibility, as well as the Church's charge to care for the poor. When we go to Church, our kids leave a mess of food and torn bits of paper in the pews after Sacrament. After each meeting, my wife and I get down on our hands and knees and meticulously clean up after our family before exiting the chapel. When one of us organizes an event at the church or uses any church facility for an event or calling or meeting, we take personal responsibility to make sure the space is clean once the activity is over. Bottom line, we clean up after ourselves.

We've also become a bit perplexed at how easy it is for the church to cut a check for someone struggling to meet their rent, but how much the Church relies upon hardworking members to do basic things. We feel each ward could EASILY be given a cleaning budget to be used with prudence....say $400 a year. How hard would it be for a bishop to offer church cleaning work to families who are struggling from time to time. Essentially pay them to clean the church using the budget rather than just cut them a check and then ask other members to come clean for free?

Bottom line: my wife and I no longer support this program. We just moved to a new state and in our new ward we were immediately given callings, which we accepted. On Tuesday we were emailed, along with another couple, by the cleaning coordinator informing us that we had been "assigned" to clean the building with this other family and how we did it was up to us....we could go on a weekday evening (I get home at 8pm and we feed and put down 3 kids 4 years and under.....so....no thanks!) or that we could go on Saturday (again....no thanks!).

I cordially emailed the coordinator back, explained that my wife and I have made a decision to serve to our capacity, and that we have decided we will not accept an individual assignment to clean the church. I understand being new in the ward this might cost us in the court of public opinion about our family....but we believe blindly saying "yes" can be costly to a family and learning to say "no" is important, especially to support the way we strongly feel about this program.

I just wanted to get some feedback or thoughts about the way we handled this and the church cleaning program in general. Thank you!!

In my opinoin if you prayed about it and truly feel from God that is the best option, then don't take the assignment and clean the church. I'm serious about that. Just make sure that it isn't a selfishness thing or a pride thing like you mentioned. If it comes from God and you feel you need to spend more time with your family, please do it. Your family is more important than a clean ward building.

[Col. Flagg]

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[Robin Hood]

Apologies in advance for the long post.

My wife and I have been discussing this for years and we have come to the conclusion that we no longer support this program.

Before we had kids, our ward had a coordinator who would ask people based on their last name to show up. For example if your last name started A - G then you were asked to come help that Saturday morning to clean. We did it several times, and it was usually a 45 minute thing.

After we had kids (3 kids under 3 years old, including twins) our lives were thrown into chaos. Our own house was never clean, let alone food ever made or my wife and I even sane during that time. Between work, chores, child rearing, and church calling (I was in EQ Presidency, she was Compassionate service coordinator), we felt we could no longer support the Church cleaning program. Part of this was pride....we felt "If we have the extra hour, which we dont, we will clean our OWN HOUSE FIRST."

Another part of this was a sense of personal responsibility, as well as the Church's charge to care for the poor. When we go to Church, our kids leave a mess of food and torn bits of paper in the pews after Sacrament. After each meeting, my wife and I get down on our hands and knees and meticulously clean up after our family before exiting the chapel. When one of us organizes an event at the church or uses any church facility for an event or calling or meeting, we take personal responsibility to make sure the space is clean once the activity is over. Bottom line, we clean up after ourselves.

We've also become a bit perplexed at how easy it is for the church to cut a check for someone struggling to meet their rent, but how much the Church relies upon hardworking members to do basic things. We feel each ward could EASILY be given a cleaning budget to be used with prudence....say $400 a year. How hard would it be for a bishop to offer church cleaning work to families who are struggling from time to time. Essentially pay them to clean the church using the budget rather than just cut them a check and then ask other members to come clean for free?

Bottom line: my wife and I no longer support this program. We just moved to a new state and in our new ward we were immediately given callings, which we accepted. On Tuesday we were emailed, along with another couple, by the cleaning coordinator informing us that we had been "assigned" to clean the building with this other family and how we did it was up to us....we could go on a weekday evening (I get home at 8pm and we feed and put down 3 kids 4 years and under.....so....no thanks!) or that we could go on Saturday (again....no thanks!).

I cordially emailed the coordinator back, explained that my wife and I have made a decision to serve to our capacity, and that we have decided we will not accept an individual assignment to clean the church. I understand being new in the ward this might cost us in the court of public opinion about our family....but we believe blindly saying "yes" can be costly to a family and learning to say "no" is important, especially to support the way we strongly feel about this program.

I just wanted to get some feedback or thoughts about the way we handled this and the church cleaning program in general. Thank you!!

I have absolutely zero sympathy with your position.
You and your family attended the church and therefore contributed to the need for it to be cleaned.
But for some reason you think it was someone else's responsibility to clean up your mess.
No sympathy whatsoever.

[thestock]

Apologies in advance for the long post.

My wife and I have been discussing this for years and we have come to the conclusion that we no longer support this program.

Before we had kids, our ward had a coordinator who would ask people based on their last name to show up. For example if your last name started A - G then you were asked to come help that Saturday morning to clean. We did it several times, and it was usually a 45 minute thing.

After we had kids (3 kids under 3 years old, including twins) our lives were thrown into chaos. Our own house was never clean, let alone food ever made or my wife and I even sane during that time. Between work, chores, child rearing, and church calling (I was in EQ Presidency, she was Compassionate service coordinator), we felt we could no longer support the Church cleaning program. Part of this was pride....we felt "If we have the extra hour, which we dont, we will clean our OWN HOUSE FIRST."

Another part of this was a sense of personal responsibility, as well as the Church's charge to care for the poor. When we go to Church, our kids leave a mess of food and torn bits of paper in the pews after Sacrament. After each meeting, my wife and I get down on our hands and knees and meticulously clean up after our family before exiting the chapel. When one of us organizes an event at the church or uses any church facility for an event or calling or meeting, we take personal responsibility to make sure the space is clean once the activity is over. Bottom line, we clean up after ourselves.

We've also become a bit perplexed at how easy it is for the church to cut a check for someone struggling to meet their rent, but how much the Church relies upon hardworking members to do basic things. We feel each ward could EASILY be given a cleaning budget to be used with prudence....say $400 a year. How hard would it be for a bishop to offer church cleaning work to families who are struggling from time to time. Essentially pay them to clean the church using the budget rather than just cut them a check and then ask other members to come clean for free?

Bottom line: my wife and I no longer support this program. We just moved to a new state and in our new ward we were immediately given callings, which we accepted. On Tuesday we were emailed, along with another couple, by the cleaning coordinator informing us that we had been "assigned" to clean the building with this other family and how we did it was up to us....we could go on a weekday evening (I get home at 8pm and we feed and put down 3 kids 4 years and under.....so....no thanks!) or that we could go on Saturday (again....no thanks!).

I cordially emailed the coordinator back, explained that my wife and I have made a decision to serve to our capacity, and that we have decided we will not accept an individual assignment to clean the church. I understand being new in the ward this might cost us in the court of public opinion about our family....but we believe blindly saying "yes" can be costly to a family and learning to say "no" is important, especially to support the way we strongly feel about this program.

I just wanted to get some feedback or thoughts about the way we handled this and the church cleaning program in general. Thank you!!

I have absolutely zero sympathy with your position.
You and your family attended the church and therefore contributed to the need for it to be cleaned.
But for some reason you think it was someone else's responsibility to clean up your mess.
No sympathy whatsoever.

Your'e entitled to your opinion....but I dont think you read my post.....or else need to work on reading comprehension. We dont expect anyone to clean after our own mess.....we do that ourselves. Cheers.

[Finrock]

I have absolutely zero sympathy with your position.
You and your family attended the church and therefore contributed to the need for it to be cleaned.
But for some reason you think it was someone else's responsibility to clean up your mess.
No sympathy whatsoever.

Another part of this was a sense of personal responsibility, as well as the Church's charge to care for the poor. When we go to Church, our kids leave a mess of food and torn bits of paper in the pews after Sacrament. After each meeting, my wife and I get down on our hands and knees and meticulously clean up after our family before exiting the chapel. When one of us organizes an event at the church or uses any church facility for an event or calling or meeting, we take personal responsibility to make sure the space is clean once the activity is over. Bottom line, we clean up after ourselves.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Apologies in advance for the long post.

My wife and I have been discussing this for years and we have come to the conclusion that we no longer support this program.

Before we had kids, our ward had a coordinator who would ask people based on their last name to show up. For example if your last name started A - G then you were asked to come help that Saturday morning to clean. We did it several times, and it was usually a 45 minute thing.

After we had kids (3 kids under 3 years old, including twins) our lives were thrown into chaos. Our own house was never clean, let alone food ever made or my wife and I even sane during that time. Between work, chores, child rearing, and church calling (I was in EQ Presidency, she was Compassionate service coordinator), we felt we could no longer support the Church cleaning program. Part of this was pride....we felt "If we have the extra hour, which we dont, we will clean our OWN HOUSE FIRST."

Another part of this was a sense of personal responsibility, as well as the Church's charge to care for the poor. When we go to Church, our kids leave a mess of food and torn bits of paper in the pews after Sacrament. After each meeting, my wife and I get down on our hands and knees and meticulously clean up after our family before exiting the chapel. When one of us organizes an event at the church or uses any church facility for an event or calling or meeting, we take personal responsibility to make sure the space is clean once the activity is over. Bottom line, we clean up after ourselves.

We've also become a bit perplexed at how easy it is for the church to cut a check for someone struggling to meet their rent, but how much the Church relies upon hardworking members to do basic things. We feel each ward could EASILY be given a cleaning budget to be used with prudence....say $400 a year. How hard would it be for a bishop to offer church cleaning work to families who are struggling from time to time. Essentially pay them to clean the church using the budget rather than just cut them a check and then ask other members to come clean for free?

Bottom line: my wife and I no longer support this program. We just moved to a new state and in our new ward we were immediately given callings, which we accepted. On Tuesday we were emailed, along with another couple, by the cleaning coordinator informing us that we had been "assigned" to clean the building with this other family and how we did it was up to us....we could go on a weekday evening (I get home at 8pm and we feed and put down 3 kids 4 years and under.....so....no thanks!) or that we could go on Saturday (again....no thanks!).

I cordially emailed the coordinator back, explained that my wife and I have made a decision to serve to our capacity, and that we have decided we will not accept an individual assignment to clean the church. I understand being new in the ward this might cost us in the court of public opinion about our family....but we believe blindly saying "yes" can be costly to a family and learning to say "no" is important, especially to support the way we strongly feel about this program.

I just wanted to get some feedback or thoughts about the way we handled this and the church cleaning program in general. Thank you!!

You should present your ideas to leadership. Bishops have discretion over how money is spent and how the Church gets cleaned (as far as I understand). Your idea isn't a bad idea and if you present it to your bishop, he may consider it and he may think its a good idea too, and perhaps its the right thing for your ward/branch.

Its very important to setup healthy boundaries, even with and within the Church. You are completely in the right to decide what tasks/callings/assignments you will accept and it is OK to say "No" if that is how you feel. Anyone who tries to use guilt and shame on you to manipulate or coerce you to change your mind is being abusive.

-Finrock

[Robin Hood]

Apologies in advance for the long post.

My wife and I have been discussing this for years and we have come to the conclusion that we no longer support this program.

Before we had kids, our ward had a coordinator who would ask people based on their last name to show up. For example if your last name started A - G then you were asked to come help that Saturday morning to clean. We did it several times, and it was usually a 45 minute thing.

After we had kids (3 kids under 3 years old, including twins) our lives were thrown into chaos. Our own house was never clean, let alone food ever made or my wife and I even sane during that time. Between work, chores, child rearing, and church calling (I was in EQ Presidency, she was Compassionate service coordinator), we felt we could no longer support the Church cleaning program. Part of this was pride....we felt "If we have the extra hour, which we dont, we will clean our OWN HOUSE FIRST."

Another part of this was a sense of personal responsibility, as well as the Church's charge to care for the poor. When we go to Church, our kids leave a mess of food and torn bits of paper in the pews after Sacrament. After each meeting, my wife and I get down on our hands and knees and meticulously clean up after our family before exiting the chapel. When one of us organizes an event at the church or uses any church facility for an event or calling or meeting, we take personal responsibility to make sure the space is clean once the activity is over. Bottom line, we clean up after ourselves.

We've also become a bit perplexed at how easy it is for the church to cut a check for someone struggling to meet their rent, but how much the Church relies upon hardworking members to do basic things. We feel each ward could EASILY be given a cleaning budget to be used with prudence....say $400 a year. How hard would it be for a bishop to offer church cleaning work to families who are struggling from time to time. Essentially pay them to clean the church using the budget rather than just cut them a check and then ask other members to come clean for free?

Bottom line: my wife and I no longer support this program. We just moved to a new state and in our new ward we were immediately given callings, which we accepted. On Tuesday we were emailed, along with another couple, by the cleaning coordinator informing us that we had been "assigned" to clean the building with this other family and how we did it was up to us....we could go on a weekday evening (I get home at 8pm and we feed and put down 3 kids 4 years and under.....so....no thanks!) or that we could go on Saturday (again....no thanks!).

I cordially emailed the coordinator back, explained that my wife and I have made a decision to serve to our capacity, and that we have decided we will not accept an individual assignment to clean the church. I understand being new in the ward this might cost us in the court of public opinion about our family....but we believe blindly saying "yes" can be costly to a family and learning to say "no" is important, especially to support the way we strongly feel about this program.

I just wanted to get some feedback or thoughts about the way we handled this and the church cleaning program in general. Thank you!!

I have absolutely zero sympathy with your position.
You and your family attended the church and therefore contributed to the need for it to be cleaned.
But for some reason you think it was someone else's responsibility to clean up your mess.
No sympathy whatsoever.

Your'e entitled to your opinion....but I dont think you read my post.....or else need to work on reading comprehension. We dont expect anyone to clean after our own mess.....we do that ourselves. Cheers.

What about what you trail in on your shoes?
Have you any idea how much muck is brought into a building "accidently"?
Clearly you haven't.
Did you ever use the toilet?
Throw litter in the bin?

I guarantee you didn't fully clean up after yourselves. Not even close.

Like I said, absolutely no sympathy whatsoever... and I know what I'm talking about... believe you me!

[Finrock]

Apologies in advance for the long post.

My wife and I have been discussing this for years and we have come to the conclusion that we no longer support this program.

Before we had kids, our ward had a coordinator who would ask people based on their last name to show up. For example if your last name started A - G then you were asked to come help that Saturday morning to clean. We did it several times, and it was usually a 45 minute thing.

After we had kids (3 kids under 3 years old, including twins) our lives were thrown into chaos. Our own house was never clean, let alone food ever made or my wife and I even sane during that time. Between work, chores, child rearing, and church calling (I was in EQ Presidency, she was Compassionate service coordinator), we felt we could no longer support the Church cleaning program. Part of this was pride....we felt "If we have the extra hour, which we dont, we will clean our OWN HOUSE FIRST."

Another part of this was a sense of personal responsibility, as well as the Church's charge to care for the poor. When we go to Church, our kids leave a mess of food and torn bits of paper in the pews after Sacrament. After each meeting, my wife and I get down on our hands and knees and meticulously clean up after our family before exiting the chapel. When one of us organizes an event at the church or uses any church facility for an event or calling or meeting, we take personal responsibility to make sure the space is clean once the activity is over. Bottom line, we clean up after ourselves.

We've also become a bit perplexed at how easy it is for the church to cut a check for someone struggling to meet their rent, but how much the Church relies upon hardworking members to do basic things. We feel each ward could EASILY be given a cleaning budget to be used with prudence....say $400 a year. How hard would it be for a bishop to offer church cleaning work to families who are struggling from time to time. Essentially pay them to clean the church using the budget rather than just cut them a check and then ask other members to come clean for free?

Bottom line: my wife and I no longer support this program. We just moved to a new state and in our new ward we were immediately given callings, which we accepted. On Tuesday we were emailed, along with another couple, by the cleaning coordinator informing us that we had been "assigned" to clean the building with this other family and how we did it was up to us....we could go on a weekday evening (I get home at 8pm and we feed and put down 3 kids 4 years and under.....so....no thanks!) or that we could go on Saturday (again....no thanks!).

I cordially emailed the coordinator back, explained that my wife and I have made a decision to serve to our capacity, and that we have decided we will not accept an individual assignment to clean the church. I understand being new in the ward this might cost us in the court of public opinion about our family....but we believe blindly saying "yes" can be costly to a family and learning to say "no" is important, especially to support the way we strongly feel about this program.

I just wanted to get some feedback or thoughts about the way we handled this and the church cleaning program in general. Thank you!!

I have absolutely zero sympathy with your position.
You and your family attended the church and therefore contributed to the need for it to be cleaned.
But for some reason you think it was someone else's responsibility to clean up your mess.
No sympathy whatsoever.

Your'e entitled to your opinion....but I dont think you read my post.....or else need to work on reading comprehension. We dont expect anyone to clean after our own mess.....we do that ourselves. Cheers.

What about what you trail in on your shoes?
Have you any idea how much muck is brought into a building "accidently"?
Clearly you haven't.
Did you ever use the toilet?
Throw litter in the bin?

I guarantee you didn't fully clean up after yourselves. Not even close.

Like I said, absolutely no sympathy whatsoever... and I know what I'm talking about... believe you me!

Your first post was a misjudgment and strong evidence that you didn't completely read his post. Now it seems like your trying to salvage your hasty generalization of this fellow by making further assumptions.

Even when members do clean the Church, not every member cleans every area that they might have walked in, used, etc. Some members clean the halls, others clean the bathrooms, others clean the chapel. By cleaning up his mess in real time, its the same as if he were doing his part during cleaning day.

Your post still fails...but, I expect you to double down. Let's see if I am right or wrong. I hope I'm wrong.

-Finrock

[Robin Hood]

Bishops have discretion over how money is spent and how the Church gets cleaned

-Finrock

No they don't.

[Col. Flagg]

I have absolutely zero sympathy with your position.
You and your family attended the church and therefore contributed to the need for it to be cleaned.
But for some reason you think it was someone else's responsibility to clean up your mess.
No sympathy whatsoever.

It's a joke that a church (corporation) with $32 billion in the US stock market which now builds malls, expensive condos and owns 3% of the landmass of Florida expects its members to clean its church buildings for free as an 'act of service', especially after laying off all of its janitors when Beneficial Life failed.

[thestock]

What about what you trail in on your shoes?
Have you any idea how much muck is brought into a building "accidently"?
Clearly you haven't.
Did you ever use the toilet?
Throw litter in the bin?

I guarantee you didn't fully clean up after yourselves. Not even close.

Like I said, absolutely no sympathy whatsoever... and I know what I'm talking about... believe you me!

See that's where the rest of my post comes into play....the Church being charged to care for the poor. My last ward has probably 40 furloughed Federal Employees at the moment that are not working and not being paid. Each ward has members that struggle to pay their rent or food or basic living expenses. Giving money to them is great....but giving them a chance to lift themselves up, not be idle, and earn that money is even better. Yeah, some muck gets trailed in. Yes, we use the trash bins and then empty the bins after quorum on Sunday. I personally do not support asking the members to clean the facilities. The church has PLENTY OF MONEY FOR THAT. And if it doesnt want to hire full time cleaning staff or contractors, like other businesses do, then investing in the struggling people of the ward sounds like a much better idea to me than asking people to invest in the Church.

Thanks for your response. Its always interesting to get diverse sets of opinions on these things.

[Finrock]

Bishops have discretion over how money is spent and how the Church gets cleaned

-Finrock

No they don't.

No they don't have discretion over how money is spent?
OR
No they don't have discretion over how the Church gets cleaned?
OR
No to both?

I can review the Church Handbook of Instructions, but, even the CHI isn't absolute/inviolate. If the Spirit directs, then a Bishop needs to listen and act. Whatever God says is right, no matter what.

-Finrock

[XEmilyX]

Well if you dont want to do the calling to clean you dont have to.
That being said, most people dont clean the buildings anyways, I come and clean and it's usually the same people who come and help each time.
And it's good to clean up the building, we find it a service and a way to show our love back to God for having a church.
Kids in Japan clean their schools not because they dont have the money, but because it teaches good principles and stuff. Respect and service.
It gets rid of entitled attitudes for sure.

Oh and the people who get help and service from the church should be cleaning it. That's what every bishop that's ever asked me when I was in a financial pickle.

[thestock]

Well if you dont want to do the calling to clean you dont have to.
That being said, most people dont clean the buildings anyways, I come and clean and it's usually the same people who come and help each time.
And it's good to clean up the building, we find it a service and a way to show our love back to God for having a church.
Kids in Japan clean their schools not because they dont have the money, but because it teaches good principles and stuff. Respect and service.
It gets rid of entitled attitudes for sure.

Oh and the people who get help and service from the church should be cleaning it. That's what every bishop that's ever asked me when I was in a financial pickle.

I love this post. Thank you so much. Yes, it was always the same people when we were doing it. When our young child rearing years are over....maybe we'd become regulars again. But I do thing getting people that are on financial assistance from the church to help is a great way.

[Juliet]

If you are not free to say no then you are not free to say yes. I would rather someone not serve if they don't want to then say they will serve and not do it anyway or do a bad job. I say A plus for your honesty and willingness to accept your needs.

I always test the Lord. We only have to clean the church once a year. We have young kids. Last time it took several hours because the other family was just too busy with their teen's activities, which I fully understand. We did it Friday night. Right now that is as good as date night gets, volunteer service.

I also had to say no to visit teaching. I just couldn't do it with some of my personal problems. Needles to say, the Lord adjusted the whole church to better meet my needs. So now I can be a ministering sister without feeling that heart attack inducing 30 day crunch every single month since the age of 18 and on for the rest of my life. I am allowed to care about someone without strict rules placed upon how I care about them. And it's a relief for those I visit too, to not feel like a project. They are served out of love and not because of a calendar.

[Robin Hood]

Bishops have discretion over how money is spent and how the Church gets cleaned

-Finrock

No they don't.

No they don't have discretion over how money is spent?
OR
No they don't have discretion over how the Church gets cleaned?
OR
No to both?

I can review the Church Handbook of Instructions, but, even the CHI isn't absolute/inviolate. If the Spirit directs, then a Bishop needs to listen and act. Whatever God says is right, no matter what.

-Finrock

Both.

[Finrock]

Bishops have discretion over how money is spent and how the Church gets cleaned

-Finrock

No they don't.

No they don't have discretion over how money is spent?
OR
No they don't have discretion over how the Church gets cleaned?
OR
No to both?

I can review the Church Handbook of Instructions, but, even the CHI isn't absolute/inviolate. If the Spirit directs, then a Bishop needs to listen and act. Whatever God says is right, no matter what.

-Finrock

Both.

I've never served as a bishop but I have been ward clerk/financial clerk and I've served as executive secretary for the bishopric. I've read the CHI several times. I know that in the United States, or at least in my wards, Bishop have much discretion as to how money is spent in the ward. My bishops have approved or not approved funds for various difference reasons and projects. Some were mentioned in the CHI, others were just things that we felt inspired to do/accomplish because it fulfilled a need. So, I can tell you as a matter of absolute fact that here in the state where I live and in the ward that I serve in, every bishop has had discretion over how money is spent. No, they don't have absolute discretion, but, they do have discretion and freedom to pick and choose and do this or to do that with the ward budget.

-Finrock

[Robin Hood]

No they don't.

No they don't have discretion over how money is spent?
OR
No they don't have discretion over how the Church gets cleaned?
OR
No to both?

I can review the Church Handbook of Instructions, but, even the CHI isn't absolute/inviolate. If the Spirit directs, then a Bishop needs to listen and act. Whatever God says is right, no matter what.

-Finrock

Both.

I've never served as a bishop but I have been ward clerk/financial clerk and I've served as executive secretary for the bishopric. I've read the CHI several times. I know that in the United States, or at least in my wards, Bishop have much discretion as to how money is spent in the ward. My bishops have approved or not approved funds for various difference reasons and projects. Some were mentioned in the CHI, others were just things that we felt inspired to do/accomplish because it fulfilled a need. So, I can tell you as a matter of absolute fact that here in the state where I live and in the ward that I serve in, every bishop has had discretion over how money is spent. No, they don't have absolute discretion, but, they do have discretion and freedom to pick and choose and do this or to do that with the ward budget.

-Finrock

A bishop does not not have the ability to use church funds to pay professional cleaners to clean the building.
The church does pay for a deep clean of it's meetinghouses 2 or 3 times a year, but that is not organised or paid for with local funds.

[Yahtzee]

We used to clean our building regularly. I believe it taught our whole family to respect it and take care of things better. It uplifted me.
However, they changed cleaning coordinators and have a scheduled time that no longer works with our schedules.
So we don't participate anymore. I miss it. I got something out of it personally and have a testimony of it.
That's fine if you don't participate. As you noticed, most members don't, and many of them have very good reasons. But I would ask you to consider that there may be some who struggle to serve in other capacities who get some spiritual nourishment from the program.

[Finrock]

No they don't have discretion over how money is spent?
OR
No they don't have discretion over how the Church gets cleaned?
OR
No to both?

I can review the Church Handbook of Instructions, but, even the CHI isn't absolute/inviolate. If the Spirit directs, then a Bishop needs to listen and act. Whatever God says is right, no matter what.

-Finrock

Both.

I've never served as a bishop but I have been ward clerk/financial clerk and I've served as executive secretary for the bishopric. I've read the CHI several times. I know that in the United States, or at least in my wards, Bishop have much discretion as to how money is spent in the ward. My bishops have approved or not approved funds for various difference reasons and projects. Some were mentioned in the CHI, others were just things that we felt inspired to do/accomplish because it fulfilled a need. So, I can tell you as a matter of absolute fact that here in the state where I live and in the ward that I serve in, every bishop has had discretion over how money is spent. No, they don't have absolute discretion, but, they do have discretion and freedom to pick and choose and do this or to do that with the ward budget.

-Finrock

A bishop does not not have the ability to use church funds to pay professional cleaners to clean the building.
The church does pay for a deep clean of it's meetinghouses 2 or 3 times a year, but that is not organised or paid for with local funds.

Well, your contention then is very specific. I'm glad you've now clarified. However, do you realize that the OP was suggesting that poor members or members who are without work, like the current furloughed Federal Employees here in the US, who are receiving financial assistance from the Church, should be tasked with cleaning the Church so that in essence these members are getting "paid" for work performed as opposed to just getting a hand-out (to be clear, I'm not saying its wrong, in an absolute sense, to give or receive hand-outs)?

I'd be curious if you can provide a reference which specifically denies a bishop from using funds to hire professionals to clean?

-Finrock

[kittycat51]

Apologies in advance for the long post.

My wife and I have been discussing this for years and we have come to the conclusion that we no longer support this program.

Before we had kids, our ward had a coordinator who would ask people based on their last name to show up. For example if your last name started A - G then you were asked to come help that Saturday morning to clean. We did it several times, and it was usually a 45 minute thing.

After we had kids (3 kids under 3 years old, including twins) our lives were thrown into chaos. Our own house was never clean, let alone food ever made or my wife and I even sane during that time. Between work, chores, child rearing, and church calling (I was in EQ Presidency, she was Compassionate service coordinator), we felt we could no longer support the Church cleaning program. Part of this was pride....we felt "If we have the extra hour, which we dont, we will clean our OWN HOUSE FIRST."

Another part of this was a sense of personal responsibility, as well as the Church's charge to care for the poor. When we go to Church, our kids leave a mess of food and torn bits of paper in the pews after Sacrament. After each meeting, my wife and I get down on our hands and knees and meticulously clean up after our family before exiting the chapel. When one of us organizes an event at the church or uses any church facility for an event or calling or meeting, we take personal responsibility to make sure the space is clean once the activity is over. Bottom line, we clean up after ourselves.

We've also become a bit perplexed at how easy it is for the church to cut a check for someone struggling to meet their rent, but how much the Church relies upon hardworking members to do basic things. We feel each ward could EASILY be given a cleaning budget to be used with prudence....say $400 a year. How hard would it be for a bishop to offer church cleaning work to families who are struggling from time to time. Essentially pay them to clean the church using the budget rather than just cut them a check and then ask other members to come clean for free?

Bottom line: my wife and I no longer support this program. We just moved to a new state and in our new ward we were immediately given callings, which we accepted. On Tuesday we were emailed, along with another couple, by the cleaning coordinator informing us that we had been "assigned" to clean the building with this other family and how we did it was up to us....we could go on a weekday evening (I get home at 8pm and we feed and put down 3 kids 4 years and under.....so....no thanks!) or that we could go on Saturday (again....no thanks!).

I cordially emailed the coordinator back, explained that my wife and I have made a decision to serve to our capacity, and that we have decided we will not accept an individual assignment to clean the church. I understand being new in the ward this might cost us in the court of public opinion about our family....but we believe blindly saying "yes" can be costly to a family and learning to say "no" is important, especially to support the way we strongly feel about this program.

I just wanted to get some feedback or thoughts about the way we handled this and the church cleaning program in general. Thank you!!

I respect your honesty.

Although I don't like when it's our turn, I do it willingly and without hesitation. I always jump in and head straight to the bathrooms. Nobody seems to like doing those but I feel comfortable and know what I'm doing. (I've cleaned up after 5 boys +1 most of my life)

I really like the idea of paying those who are in need. We have been in a financial pickle for several months. We have not received any financial help from the Church as of yet. (too proud) but if they were to say we will pay you to clean the church I would be ALL IN.

[Robin Hood]

I have absolutely zero sympathy with your position.
You and your family attended the church and therefore contributed to the need for it to be cleaned.
But for some reason you think it was someone else's responsibility to clean up your mess.
No sympathy whatsoever.

Your'e entitled to your opinion....but I dont think you read my post.....or else need to work on reading comprehension. We dont expect anyone to clean after our own mess.....we do that ourselves. Cheers.

What about what you trail in on your shoes?
Have you any idea how much muck is brought into a building "accidently"?
Clearly you haven't.
Did you ever use the toilet?
Throw litter in the bin?

I guarantee you didn't fully clean up after yourselves. Not even close.

Like I said, absolutely no sympathy whatsoever... and I know what I'm talking about... believe you me!

Your first post was a misjudgment and strong evidence that you didn't completely read his post. Now it seems like your trying to salvage your hasty generalization of this fellow by making further assumptions.

Even when members do clean the Church, not every member cleans every area that they might have walked in, used, etc. Some members clean the halls, others clean the bathrooms, others clean the chapel. By cleaning up his mess in real time, its the same as if he were doing his part during cleaning day.

Your post still fails...but, I expect you to double down. Let's see if I am right or wrong. I hope I'm wrong.

-Finrock

I spent 4+ hours most weeks (either a friday or saturday evening) cleaning our building. I vacuum everywhere, mop extensive ceramic tiled floors, clean the toilets, the kitchen, empty the bins, sweep up, tidy up ... the list goes on.
We have a cleaning rota, but very few people even look at it. They are only required to clean 3 times a year but if they are reminded they make some feeble excuse. They're basically idle buggers.

So I ended up doing it, usually on my own. That's on top of a full-time job, family responsibilities, a terminally ill mother-in-law who we attend to on a daily basis, a severely fatigued wife, and all while serving as the bishop! That was my life for years.

So I have very little time for some whiny malcontent who comes on here and says that because they've got 3 kids they can't clean the chapel.
I bet they found time to watch TV.

Edit: Since my release, I still have to clean the building because no one else can be bothered to get off their fat arse.

[Finrock]

Your'e entitled to your opinion....but I dont think you read my post.....or else need to work on reading comprehension. We dont expect anyone to clean after our own mess.....we do that ourselves. Cheers.

What about what you trail in on your shoes?
Have you any idea how much muck is brought into a building "accidently"?
Clearly you haven't.
Did you ever use the toilet?
Throw litter in the bin?

I guarantee you didn't fully clean up after yourselves. Not even close.

Like I said, absolutely no sympathy whatsoever... and I know what I'm talking about... believe you me!

Your first post was a misjudgment and strong evidence that you didn't completely read his post. Now it seems like your trying to salvage your hasty generalization of this fellow by making further assumptions.

Even when members do clean the Church, not every member cleans every area that they might have walked in, used, etc. Some members clean the halls, others clean the bathrooms, others clean the chapel. By cleaning up his mess in real time, its the same as if he were doing his part during cleaning day.

Your post still fails...but, I expect you to double down. Let's see if I am right or wrong. I hope I'm wrong.

-Finrock

I spent 4+ hours most weeks (either a friday or saturday evening) cleaning our building. I vacuum everywhere, mop extensive ceramic tiled floors, clean the toilets, the kitchen, empty the bins, sweep up, tidy up ... the list goes on.
We have a cleaning rota, but very few people even look at it. They are only required to clean 3 times a year but if they are reminded they make some feeble excuse. They're basically idle buggers.

So I ended up doing it, usually on my own. That's on top of a full-time job, family responsibilities, a terminally ill mother-in-law who we attend to on a daily basis, a severely fatigued wife, and all while serving as the bishop! That was my life for years.

So I have very little time for some whiny malcontent who comes on here and says that because they've got 3 kids they can't clean the chapel.
I bet they found time to watch TV.

OK. You did a good job. I'm not sure why you doing something that others haven't takes anything away from another person's experiences, struggles, etc., or how it affects you or takes away from you, but, you are entitled to your opinions and views. I think your perspective here is weird. Its like you're judging this guy just because you had to do cleaning all by yourself for years and you expect others to be like you. We are all in different places in life, with different talents, skills, weaknesses, challenges, and all of that. Until we have the ability to account for all relevant factors in a person's life (which for us is impossible), it is my belief and opinion that we can't really make any definitive judgments about them.

You've judged this man to be a lazy, whiny, malcontent? You feeling down today or something? Need a little "pick me up" by trying to knock someone else down?

-Finrock

[JohnnyL]

The Church spent a lot of money on custodians (and still do for things members can't do, like painting, waxing, changing cultural hall lights, etc.). Too many custodians did little and got paid a lot. (Ours used to sit in his truck, eat breakfast and read the paper AT LEAST an hour a day, on time.) Then there were insurance issues, job issues, etc. That's a lot of money THAT COULD BE USED FOR THE POOR--IF members were to help out. In addition, too many ward members--unlike thestock--would always leave their messes and say, "Why clean when we pay a custodian to do it?"

In one ward, people on welfare are often assigned to clean the church, lock up at night, etc. In fact, a bishop CAN stipulate that church service based on abilities and needs be offered before cutting checks. They can also have other stipulations, like making a budget, meeting with a money mentors who check their keeping the budget or progress on the budget, doing job searches, etc. One leader did that--he'd feed the children, but if the parents didn't do what he asked them to, they wouldn't get food. I am all for that! If you want money and food, you WILL serve/ work based on your abilities and needs. You will sign up and SHOW up for the self-reliance classes, and do all the assignments.

Ok, maybe a little too overboard there, but I am definitely not for people who show up for years, in their nice cars and clothes, with the latest phone, who smoke and drink (thinking of the money spent doing it, not the act), inactive for the past 19 out of 20 years, to grab food off the welfare truck "because the bishop knows me", etc.

I am also not for people who buy huge expensive houses above their means, then need stake presidents to pay for them. Get that problem solved very quickly, or put your house on the market. One SP told a guy who bought, then couldn't pay for, a big $50,000+ truck to sell it immediately and take the loss. Sorry. Be wiser next time.

I could not see myself accepting any money from the church without doing what I could, or making it up later with fast offerings/ donations. To me, that would be... No.

If you use it, clean it. You don't want to clean it, don't use it. Wards in the past have held church in all kinds of other places, which, whoops, they had to clean from parties the night before, before being able to use. I've met in a house, a high-rise with no parking, rented places, etc. It's NICE to have a building, and spending 45 minutes a week, four times every three months, is too much??

If you can't do it or make it for other reasons (allergies, children, time, distance, etc.), do what you can--have one go while one stays--or do what you can elsewhere, or ask the bishop what you could do instead. And, appreciate a clean building and those who keep it that way.

This could be a great opportunity to teach children how to serve, and how to clean. It has been for us.
And to get to know other ward members, which it has helped with for us, too.