Chad Daybell's (False) Train Dreams as shared from AVOW

[Onsdag]

Just received the following in an email from AVOW and thought I'd share and comment on it because of the false, dangerous, and misleading things I see being taught in it. My comments in blue.

*March 22, 2018*

*As I See It*
*By Chad Daybell*

*The Train Dreams: Rolling into the Future* [note: not all dreams come from God. Not all dreams are prophetic or revelatory. Not all dreams have the meaning or interpretation we assign to them. And not all dreams are to be shared or applied to a wider audience than the intended recipient of said dreams. In other words, buyer beware. But I digress.]

When I was a teenager, I worked for two summers as a landscaper at the GRA Park in Provo. The park was owned by my father’s employer, Geneva Steel, and I would help sweep out the pavilions and mow the lawn.

The main feature of the GRA Park was a large train engine and coal car that had been moved there and placed near the playground. Guard rails had been added along the train’s outside walkways, and any dangerous items had been removed or welded shut. Park visitors were allowed to roam anywhere on that train, and on Saturdays there were often 50 kids swarming all over it.

I hadn’t thought of that train in years until the night after President Thomas S. Monson’s death. I was given a curious dream that night where I saw Joseph Smith standing on the roof of a very similar train, and he was preaching to a small group who were sitting on benches in the coal car. The train was slowly creeping down a track, and Joseph was speaking loud enough that all of the people could easily hear his words. He gave a witty remark, and the whole group laughed. [I laughed too. Coal cars are specifically designed for one thing and one thing only: hauling coal. Tons of coal, in fact. As such you'll never see benches or other accommodations for passengers in one. Go ahead and Google it. No wonder Chad says it was a 'curious dream'.]

Then I saw subsequent prophets standing on top of the train, preaching to the group. The coal car seemed to magically lengthen as additional people joined the group, but everyone could still clearly hear the messages. [What a wonderously magical coal car. I'd also be curious as to how the people weren't filthy dirty in such close proximity to coal. Have you ever been around or sat on coal? I have.]

When Lorenzo Snow appeared on the train engine roof, I noticed a second and third car had been added. I also saw the Church’s apostles listen to President Snow and then relay his message to the people in the final two cars.

That is where the dream stopped the first night. As I pondered it, I was told by the Spirit that the train represented the Church up to 1901 when President Snow passed away. Through the first seven decades of the Church, the prophet and apostles were regularly meeting with the Saints of the Church. These men were steadily receiving revelations, and they would openly share what they saw regarding the future of the Church. Some of the best descriptions of latter-day events come from those early prophets.[Chad Daybell starts introducing a change in the narrative, and in the process introduces a subtle and deceptive twist to Church history as well. You see, he would have you believe that all the saints up to 1901 had personal access to the words of the Lord through His anointed Prophet and Apostles, but after the time of Lorenzo Snow things changed. This isn't true. From the days of Joseph Smith (and even before that during the earthly ministry of Christ) the Lord sent out His apostles, missionaries, and other ordained servants to help share the gospel to the saints and throughout the world (see e.g. D&C 52:9-10; 107:23; 124:139). As you may well recall most of the Apostles were out on errands and preaching to the saints and others when Joseph and Hyrum were martyred and rushed back to Nauvoo when they received word of their deaths. This pattern continues to this very day, though on a grander scale. President Russel M. Nelson, our newest Prophet, for example, has visited 133 countries throughout his ministry to the Church and the world. Though the Prophets and Apostles aren't able to personally visit every congregation of the saints, with the miraculous technologies of flight, internet, satellite communication, and others that the Lord has given us, the saints everywhere are able to hear personally and directly from God's mouthpiece on earth.

Furthermore, Chad Daybell begins to subtly sow another false and evil doctrine - that the visions, revelations, and latter-day teachings of the Prophets are done away from this point on. Such doctrine comes from Satan. The Lord's Prophets and Apostles in our day continue to openly share revelations specifically for our day and to help us through the days ahead.]

Spiritual experiences and interaction with deceased ancestors were common among the members, and these accounts would be published in the Deseret News or Church magazines. For example, the futuristic vision by Patriarch Charles D. Evans that is still often quoted first appeared in an 1893 issue of the Church’s Contributor Magazine. [These things are still common in our day, but we cherish them and hold them sacred. Again, more innuendo from Daybell that the Church is changing and/or becoming corrupted, and that we no longer experience miracles and sacred experiences as was once common among the saints.]

*Rolling Into the Twentieth Century*
Two nights later, the dream resumed with President Joseph F. Smith atop the roof of the train. He still addressed a small group in the closest coal car, but he was also speaking into a microphone, so that the Saints in the adjoining cars could hear his message. I was told this scene represented General Conference moving into the age of radio.

I saw a similar scene involved George Albert Smith looking into a television camera while on top of the train, which I later discovered matched the fact he was the prophet at the time of the first televised General Conference in 1949.

The LDS Church membership didn’t reach 1 million members until after World War II. The Saints were still a fairly isolated, peculiar people. Spiritual experiences were still occurring regularly among the Saints and being published by the Church in magazines and sold in book compilations. I was shown the covers of some older books that I still own, such as “Spirit World Manifestations” and “Temple Manifestations” that are filled with wonderful accounts told by common LDS members. [Way to start slipping in product endorsements. While these may be good books (I don't know one way or another, having no knowledge of them), he does open the door for introducing other books and authors as being good LDS reading material, as we will see shortly...]

I then saw a montage of Conference talks by prophets and apostles giving details of Spirit World experiences, such as David O. McKay’s vision of a celestial city. I also saw fiery, patriotic sermons by Ezra Taft Benson, and prophetic addresses by apostles such as Bruce R. McConkie and many others. Physical preparation was a main topic, and I saw the Saints in the train cars responding favorably to these messages. [Starting to focus on physical preparation. While important, Prophets and Apostles in our day have been focused - by far - on spiritual preparations. Ezra Taft Benson is one of my personal heroes. He was bold and fearless in standing up for what was right. Which is what strikes me as kind of odd when Chad Daybell says the Saints were "responding favorably to these messages." As I recall President Benson didn't win many popularity awards with the saints because he was so bold and fearless in denouncing evil and wickedness, especially among the saints. But maybe I'm remembering things wrong...?]

Then I was given an outside view of the Church train. It had transformed into a sleek silver train moving at a pretty good speed. The first car behind the engine had a second level deck where there were several prime seats to view the countryside. I glimpsed President Gordon B. Hinckley in the front seats, accompanied by his counselors. [Whew - at least the saints are no longer thrown in with the coal.]

*I Enter the Upper Deck*
Suddenly I felt myself zoom through the wall of the train’s upper deck. I found myself sitting in that upper deck toward the back. I really felt out of place, sitting among famous authors such as Gerald Lund, Dean Hughes, and Chris Heimerdinger, but they welcomed me warmly. [Fancy that. Chad Daybell says he is given a "prime seat" on the top floor of the first car, along with a bunch of other famous LDS authors, and humbly states that he "really felt out of place." Does anyone else detect a hint of pride and feigned humility creeping into his narrative, or is it just me?]

I saw my first series of novels known as “The Emma Trilogy” resting beside me, and I was told this segment of the dream represented the late 1990s when the LDS book market was really booming. I was a new author, but I was treated very well by Deseret Book, Seagull Book, and all of the independent LDS bookstores. I participated in many book signings across the western states, and I got to know the store managers, who loved it when I stopped by the store and autographed the copies of my books they had on hand. There was a strong camaraderie among the authors, and we enjoyed seeing each other at the LDS Booksellers Convention and other events. [Yep. seems to focus more on self, his personal works and accomplishments, and his special relationship with Church-owned bookstores and LDS authors.]

I remember thinking at the time that an abundance of gospel knowledge seemed to be emerging from a variety of sources. Roger K. Young’s books about upcoming future events were selling briskly, and “last days” topics were openly discussed online and at preparedness fairs. I had started my publishing company Spring Creek Books, and we were finding success in sharing similar messages. I was also writing my “Standing in Holy Places” series, based on what I had been shown during my near-death experiences, and readers responded very favorably. [Says that there is "an abundance of gospel knowledge... emerging from a variety of sources," but never actually mentions any great sources but instead plugs himself and Roger K. Young's books. Enjoying his moment in the spotlight, it would seem.]

The second dream ended there in the upper deck. President Hinckley turned to face us with his cane held high and a big smile on his face. [insinuates great love and approval from President Hinckley for his and the other author's works.]

*A Changing of the Guard* [strongly insinuates negative changes coming within the Church and/or it's leadership]
The third train dream opened in the same upper deck as before, but the number of authors seated near me had thinned out, and those of us who remained seemed nervous and uncertain. I sensed that the warm relationship between the Church-owned bookstores and the authors had somehow grown cold. [says that his (and other LDS author's) once "warm relationship" with the Church had now "grown cold." He strongly insinuates that the Church (or the train) and his position within it is the same as before, and therefore any problem is not on his part, but rather it's because of the "changing of the guard" (i.e. changes in Church leadership). One begins to sense a deep bitterness and resentment on the part of Chad towards Church leaders and their bookstores.]

I saw President Thomas S. Monson sitting at the front with his counselors. We could hear them talking intently about lowering the age for missionaries, and later they were focused on the effect missionary surge. Then President Monson went quiet. He never turned around or acknowledged us. [seems to target President Monson as the source of his problems, and suggests that he (President Monson) has in effect turned his back on him, the other authors, and ultimately the Church.]

I realize now that was part of President Monson's prophetic mission, because a man on the train I didn’t recognize leaned over to me and said, “Times have changed. Gospel knowledge won’t be served on a silver platter anymore. We are now in an era when the Saints must seek out truth and develop their own testimonies, rather than live on borrowed light.” [And now we begin to see another subtle and crafty deception planted in the hearts and minds of the people by Satan. While it is true that we must develop our own testimonies and cannot live on borrowed light, the deception that is being taught is that the Prophets and other Church leaders are turning their backs on the saints and leaving them to struggle on their own. Furthermore, this doctrine is the same as espoused by Denver Snuffer and the other remnant groups who teach that we don't need living Prophets to teach us correct Gospel knowledge or bring us to Christ. This evil doctrine is not true and it begins to sever our connection with the Lord's anointed servants and, ultimately, to the Lord himself. Such beliefs, if entertained long enough, set one on the high road to apostasy - as we have witnessed with the Denver Snuffers of the world.]

I asked him why we couldn’t just keep the status quo. The man said, “There must be a space of time when the Saints show their true allegiance before the coming tribulations. The prophetic word has been pulled back for a time as other witnesses come forth to testify of these truths. The Saints must learn to recognize the Spirit in their lives, rather than following the prophet like unquestioning sheep.” [Again more remnant movement garbage spewed forth. The Prophetic words have NOT been pulled back, but continue with us to this very day. In fact next week we will be privileged to sit at the feet of living Prophets, Apostles, and other servants of God, who will teach us of His ways. Furthermore, Chad would undermine the role of ordained Prophets and Apostles, supplanting them with "other witnesses" who are not known to the body of the saints. We shouldn't be following the Prophets like "unquestioning sheep," we should each strive to obtain our own personal witness from God that they do speak the mind and will of God - a witness which I have received time and again. And the Spirit whispereth to my soul that if we do not follow the Prophets and Apostles like sheep follow their shepherd then we open ourselves up to being destroyed by wolves masquerading as sheep. And one such true Prophet of God had this to say just six months ago: "Do not listen to those who have not been ordained and/or set apart to their Church calling and are not acknowledged by common consent of the members of the Church" (Elder M. Russell Ballard).]

I thought the man was being a little harsh, but I was then shown the true condition of the Saints. I was shown many fancy homes with shelves filled with the books that were published in the 1990s, but these books had been unopened for many years. They ranged from “The Work and the Glory” series to President Hinckley’s book “Standing for Something.” They had become status symbols of alleged righteousness rather than being read for the powerful information contained inside them. [Somehow he is privy to "the true condition of the Saints." Reminds me of another snippet from Elder Ballard's talk this past General Conference: "Be aware of organizations, groups, or individuals claiming secret answers to doctrinal questions that they say today’s apostles and prophets do not have or understand" (Elder M. Russell Ballard).]

*Following Historic Patterns*
I was shown that this was a repeat of previous times in history when the Saints had become a little too comfortable and complacent about the gospel. Three instances in particular came to mind of when the prophets pulled back a little, and other witnesses came forward. [More remnant garbage. This guy sounds more and more like a follower of Denver Snuffer et. al than a Latter-day Saint. These fringe and remnant movement people like to try using the following examples as proof of the Lord using people from outside of the organization of the Church.]

I first saw the prophet Lehi standing in Jerusalem trying to convince his fellow citizens that the city was in danger. Lehi wasn’t the appointed prophet at that time—Jeremiah was. But as the first chapter in the Book of Mormon explains, he had been given a vision of coming events, and he felt called of God to be a messenger. The people he preached to weren’t receptive to his teachings, and the Lord eventually commanded Lehi to leave the city with his family. [This is a poor example to try justifying their claims. There is no absolute proof for or against Lehi coming from without the Church leadership or organization. Lack of evidence does not equal evidence to support their claims. On the other hand there is strong circumstantial evidence in the scriptures that teach "and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed. Wherefore it came to pass that my father, Lehi, as he went forth prayed unto the Lord, yea, even with all his heart, in behalf of his people" (1 Nephi 1:4-5). This strongly suggests that Lehi was indeed one of the "many prophets" in that day, and as such would have been known and associated with the organization of the Church.]

The second instance I saw was Abinadi, who testified against King Noah and his priests. King Noah's people had reached a point where even the Ten Commandments were unfamiliar to them, and the king rejected his message. They ended up killing Abinadi by burning him to death. [Again, Chad and others who espouse this remnant doctrine have no proof that Abinadi came from without the Church. On the other hand there is again strong circumstantial evidence that Abinadi had been ordained and set apart within the Church. If you remember the story Zeniff took a bunch of people out into the wilderness to reclaim the land of their inheritance. His people, and subsequently king Noah and his people, were isolated from the other Nephites and apparently had no contact with them until much later when they were reunited. Under these circumstances it is very likely and believable that Abinadi was with this group the whole time. We read that evil king Noah "had changed the affairs of the kingdom. For he put down all the priests that had been consecrated by his father, and consecrated new ones in their stead, such as were lifted up in the pride of their hearts" (Mosiah 11:4-5). Later we read "that there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi; and he went forth among them, and began to prophesy" (vs. 20). Is it possible that Abinadi was one of the priests Zeniff had consecrated? I would have just just as weight in my speculation as the remnant people who claim he was a nobody.]

Finally I was shown Samuel the Lamanite, who traveled to the land of Zarahemla to share the message of the Savior's birth and death. He also testified against the Nephites' wickedness, and they took exception to that. They shot arrows at him, and only through miraculous means was he saved. [In the scriptures it specifically says that he was a prophet (e.g. 3 Nephi 1:9). The Lord Jesus Christ specifically mentioned his prophecies and chastised the Nephites for not recording the fulfillment of the words of his prophesy. The Nephites quickly realized their mistake and corrected it. This strongly suggests that he was known to the people as a Prophet and they had recorded his prophesy in their scriptures, but had failed to record that his prophesy had been fulfilled. (see 3 Nephi 23:6-13) ]

Lehi, Abinadi, and Samuel the Lamanite didn’t come from the mainstream religious structure that the church members were used to, so their authority was questioned. Their words were also more direct than the people were used to hearing, but these messengers always pointed back to the Lord’s chosen leaders as the ones to follow. Their messages pricked the hearts of many good people who changed their ways and more steadfastly followed the prophet. [That is his claim with absolutely nothing to substantiate it. They use these beliefs to justify their false dogma that the Lord sends people outside of the appointed channels to lead and guide His people. Such is not the case. "We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof" (Articles of Faith #5). And "We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth." (Articles of Faith #6). Joseph Smith at first was a nobody, but guess how he came to be a Prophet within God's Church? Exactly in the same manner as those before and after him - "by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority" when they were ordained as such by Peter, James, and John (see D&C 27:12)]

*Modern-day Similarities*
I was then shown that the Lord is using a similar pattern of messengers and witnesses in our current day. I returned to the upper deck and saw a man known as Spencer sitting nearby who had written a book called “Visions of Glory.” He looked like he’d been put through the ringer. [And here we see that he uses this false doctrine to try justifying and accepting the authority and teachings of "those who have not been ordained and/or set apart to their Church calling and are not acknowledged by common consent of the members of the Church." A true Prophet of God, Elder Ballard, has just taught us to beware of such.]

We were soon joined by a pair of new authors named Julie Rowe and Hector Sosa that I had published books for. Much like those earlier messengers, these three authors spoke of troubled times coming— including upcoming earthquakes in Utah—but they always pointed back to the living prophets as the ones to follow. [Again puts forth these other two false prophets and teachers as having authority when they have none. Funny thing that "they always pointed back to the living prophets as the ones to follow" when it is clear that they themselves are not in harmony with the teachings of the Prophets and Apostles and the brethren have all but denounced the likes of these false teachers. And so the deception is made clear that they will say good things, pretending to be in harmony with the brethren, in order to try drawing followers away after them. If we listen and give heed to these individuals then we immediately stop following the counsel of the Prophets and turn away from our Savior Jesus Christ. Again Elder Ballard taught "Brothers and sisters, keep the doctrine of Christ pure and never be deceived by those who tamper with the doctrine." We would do well to follow his counsel.]

I watched as each of these authors sent their messages to the Saints in the other train cars. There were many who believed, but many more who dismissed them, waiting for the prophet to spoon-feed them the gospel as had occurred in the previous decades. [Well, it's good to know that there are "many more who dismissed them, waiting for the prophet to spoon-feed them the gospel as had occurred in the previous decades." Thus we know that the kingdom of God will continue to roll forth uninterrupted by these false teachers and visionaries who come in among the saints as wolves in sheep's clothing. And for Chad to mockingly revile the faithful saints for "waiting for the prophet to spoon-feed them the gospel as had occurred in the previous decades" shows where his heart is and that he stands opposed to the Prophets of God himself, not only those who lead us now, but all those from "previous decades" as well. Brothers and sisters, the Prophets of God have been called of God to lead us and teach us of His ways. We cannot lightly dismiss them without cutting ourselves off from God in the process. History and scriptures have always shown this to be true. The Prophets are the ones we absolutely need to be following:

"Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith. For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory. For thus saith the Lord God: Him have I inspired to move the cause of Zion in mighty power for good, and his diligence I know, and his prayers I have heard. Yea, his weeping for Zion I have seen, and I will cause that he shall mourn for her no longer; for his days of rejoicing are come unto the remission of his sins, and the manifestations of my blessings upon his works. For, behold, I will bless all those who labor in my vineyard with a mighty blessing, and they shall believe on his words, which are given him through me by the Comforter, which manifesteth that Jesus was crucified by sinful men for the sins of the world, yea, for the remission of sins unto the contrite heart." (D&C 21:4-9)

The gospel is true and the same now as it always has been. We must listen and follow the words of the Prophets if we wish to be safe. Elder Neil L. Anderson's said in his most recent Conference talk "In the commotion and confusion of our modern world, trusting and believing in the words of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve is vital to our spiritual growth and endurance." I encourage you to read the full talk here: (link). Do not listen to these people who would pervert and twist the gospel to their own evil and selfish agendas.]

I glanced at President Monson and his counselors, but they didn’t acknowledge the commotion happening behind them. I realized it was because they knew the Saints needed to seek their own light before the tribulations. I was told it wasn’t a coincidence that our beloved prophet was mostly silenced by age during the years these books were most prominent. Then the dream closed. [This is not true. The Prophets and Apostles have never turned their backs on the Church or the Saints. Nor have they never "acknowledge the commotion happening behind them." I know of multiple instances where they have specifically addressed the saints locally and generally about these false teachers who were entering in and troubling the saints. Here are just a few I can recall off the top of my head:

1. August 31, 2015: Julie Rowe's book is specifically singled out and put on a "spurious materials list" and CES leaders and instructors are warned against using it saying that her teachings "do not necessarily reflect Church doctrine or they may distort Church doctrine." (source)
2. September 13, 2015: Just two weeks later Elder Ballard addresses the saints in the Utah South Area in a regional conference with 235 stakes participating. Among the things he spoke of he said:

   "Paul warned the Saints in his own day of the spiritual dangers they faced. To the Galatians he wrote: [quotes Galations 1:6-8]
   I raise my warning voice, as Paul did, that there are those “that trouble you”—people that “pervert the gospel of Christ.” I would be shirking my duty if I did not raise my voice to warn you of the challenges we face today. ...
   I remind you of Jesus’s prophecy regarding the last days in which we now live: “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” We are saddened when we witness some of the “very elect” deceived as Jesus warned. ...
   One thing that is constantly on my mind is knowing that individuals who don’t stay focused on the simple doctrine and gospel of Christ will eventually listen to false teachers and self-declared prophets and adopt worldly philosophies. ...
   Another concern I have is you live so close to the Church headquarters that some of you have become casual in listening to the Lord’s servants. Some choose to miss sessions of stake and general conference because they see those special weekends as a time off from their Church assignments. It is hard for me to understand why anyone turns to other voices on the Internet without first turning to voices of the scriptures or the voices of the living prophets and apostles. (source)

   As I was in attendance at this conference there was no doubt in my mind that he was warning the saints in our area about Julie Rowe and others who were arising in our midst, troubling us, and perverting the gospel of Jesus Christ.
3. October 1, 2016: Elder Quentin L. Cook addresses the saints in General Conference and warns about the stumbling blocks we face, including that of looking beyond the mark. Said he: "While there are many examples of looking beyond the mark, a significant one in our day is extremism. Gospel extremism is when one elevates any gospel principle above other equally important principles and takes a position that is beyond or contrary to the teachings of Church leaders." One such example he gave of gospel extremism is "expensive preparation for end-of-days scenarios" (source). This is something that Julie Rowe, members of AVOW, and the call-out crowd have been advocating for and so it was clear to me that he was speaking out against these things as a stumbling block for the saints.
4. October 1, 2017: Elder Ballard again addresses the saints, this time the whole body of the saints in General Conference. Said he:

   We must be careful where our footsteps in life take us. We must be watchful and heed the counsel of Jesus to His disciples as He answered these questions: “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
   
   “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man [and I add woman] (note - those were Elder Ballard's words, which seemed to be a direct nod to Julie Rowe)deceive you.”
   
   Today I repeat earlier counsel from Church leaders.
   
   Brothers and sisters, keep the doctrine of Christ pure and never be deceived by those who tamper with the doctrine. The gospel of the Father and the Son was restored through Joseph Smith, the prophet for this last dispensation.
   
   Do not listen to those who have not been ordained and/or set apart to their Church calling and are not acknowledged by common consent of the members of the Church.
   
   Be aware of organizations, groups, or individuals claiming secret answers to doctrinal questions that they say today’s apostles and prophets do not have or understand.
   
   Do not listen to those who entice you with get-rich schemes. Our members have lost far too much money, so be careful.
   
   In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge in expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support.
   
   An official Church statement, issued one year ago, states: “We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises—in exchange for money—miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.”
   
   The Church Handbook counsels: “Members should not use medical or health practices that are ethically or legally questionable. Local leaders should advise members who have health problems to consult with competent professional practitioners who are licensed in the countries where they practice.”
   
   Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful.

   Everything Elder Ballard spoke of seemed to have direct correlation with Julie Rowe. Julie Rowe advocates strongly for Energy Healing, claiming that it is part of the mission God gave her. Guess what - energy healing is a big business which "promises—in exchange for money—miraculous healings" and "that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders." Julie Rowe is tampering with the pure and simple doctrine of the gospel. Julie Rowe has not been set apart or ordained, and is not known to the church, but yet she claims divine authority to be teaching the things she does. She claims secret knowledge and doctrine that goes beyond what the Apostles and Prophets have.

Even if you disagree with me that the Prophets and Apostles aren't thinking of Julie Rowe specifically when they said those things, it must be acknowledged that they are in very fact aware of, acknowledging, and addressing commotions that are happening within the Church - contrary to Chad's assertion otherwise. Elder Ballard is a powerful example of this as he warned the saints multiple times about those who are troubling us - and it must be noted that in every instance he warned us Thomas S. Monson was the Prophet at the time]

*The Fourth Dream – President Nelson*
The final Train dream began with President Russell M. Nelson and his counselors sitting at the front of the upper deck. The new First Presidency quickly made several changes within the Church that shook up many members of the Church who were......... [ Chad's dream/story suggests changes are coming to the Church which will shake up the members. I find it interesting that he says that the Prophet and his counselors are no longer at the front of the train on the engine as all the previous prophets had been in this dream, but are now seated in the passenger car with the other members. Is he suggesting that the leadership of the Church is somehow fallen or being dismantled or replaced by someone else?]

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If you would like to read the rest of Chad Daybell's post, or any his may other articles, we invite you to go to the Private *GRI Forum.* [it is at this point that the email cuts off Chad Daybell's story/dreams and invites you to visit their site (paying money in the process to do so) in order to read the rest of it. First, if you don't have an active subscription to AVOW you will need to pay a recurring membership fee to access the website. Secondly, they placed Chad's story/dream in the GRI section of the forum which requires an additional fee to access. Yes, that's right brothers and sisters, for your money you can be 'saved' and have secret information about upcoming changes and events within the Church. *Shaking My Head* Just no. Follow the teachings of our living Prophets and Apostles and steer clear from these false teachers and false prophets.]

I suppose I must thank you Chad Daybell (and AVOW) for sharing this dream and your teachings with me. You have revealed yourself for the true wolf you are who would destroy the souls of men and women and pervert the right ways of God.

[Mcox]

It appears that Chad Daybell has missed the “train” This is what happens when you do not stay with the mainstream of the church. I’m sure he is involved with energy healing, as his bff julie Rowe is. This practice opens doors to strange manifestations and “dreams”.
And by the way, Lehi, Abinadi and Samuel were all prophets called of God. Unlike spencer, Julie and Hector. Who set themselves up as lights for the praise and glory of man.
I am so grateful for 13 about to be 15 prophets seers and revelatory, who guide the affairs of the Lord! Who are His mouthpiece. I know with all my heart, they will not lead us astray and if we are teachable, we can learn from them and come closer to our Savior Jesus Christ.

[gangbusters]

What a tragedy that there are people docile and simple enough to buy this guy’s tripe. Not to mention that of Julie, Hector, and the rest. Good grief.

[Onsdag]

When I was a teenager, I worked for two summers as a landscaper at the GRA Park in Provo. The park was owned by my father’s employer, Geneva Steel, and I would help sweep out the pavilions and mow the lawn.

The main feature of the GRA Park was a large train engine and coal car that had been moved there and placed near the playground. Guard rails had been added along the train’s outside walkways, and any dangerous items had been removed or welded shut. Park visitors were allowed to roam anywhere on that train, and on Saturdays there were often 50 kids swarming all over it.

I hadn’t thought of that train in years until the night after President Thomas S. Monson’s death. I was given a curious dream that night where I saw Joseph Smith standing on the roof of a very similar train, and he was preaching to a small group who were sitting on benches in the coal car. The train was slowly creeping down a track, and Joseph was speaking loud enough that all of the people could easily hear his words. He gave a witty remark, and the whole group laughed. [I laughed too. Coal cars are specifically designed for one thing and one thing only: hauling coal. Tons of coal, in fact. As such you'll never see benches or other accommodations for passengers in one. Go ahead and Google it. No wonder Chad says it was a 'curious dream'.]

I need to make a clarification on my remarks above. When Chad said "coal car" I simply assumed he was referring to those coal cars which are designed specifically for hauling coal. Example: https://goo.gl/images/LwD7cD

However, in researching the specific train he mentioned earlier I came across this article: http://www.steamlocomotive.info/F62003.cfm

The specific train he mentions is the Colombia Steel 0-6-0 No. 300 engine with an attached "coal car" (actually called a "tender", but often called a coal car). A tender carries both fuel (in this case coal) and water, which is then converted to steam to power the engine. This specific tender he refers to at the park was a slope-back tender. Google it for examples of what it looks like.

Though I was mistaken about the type of "coal car" he was referring to my point remains valid that this "coal car" is designed with one specific thing in mind - and it's not for carrying passengers. As such you will never see benches or other accommodations for people on them.

[Todd]

All good points Ondsdag.

Too bad you didn’t shell out the money to see the real zinger in the train dream on the super private forum. The short of it is that in the future (after the first earthquake), church leaders will seek council from Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell. They will also be elevated to high church positions.

Wow.

[Sarah]

Nice analysis.

I too got the email and started catching on to some of the same things you brought out. I just shook my head and stopped reading. Chad is like Julie, they are fiction writers, who get all their ideas online. (Actually Chad said one time he received ideas while walking through the cemetery he managed.) Besides the fact that he was the one to publish and promote Julie, he claimed about a year ago that he had an NDE. What are the chances? So sad.

[sushi_chef]

possibly didnt reach the projected sales volume due to some gc sermons, needs clearance sale??

but nevertheless the last part intriguing sushi_, wishes itere free...

[Onsdag]

It appears that Chad Daybell has missed the “train” This is what happens when you do not stay with the mainstream of the church. I’m sure he is involved with energy healing, as his bff julie Rowe is. This practice opens doors to strange manifestations and “dreams”.
And by the way, Lehi, Abinadi and Samuel were all prophets called of God. Unlike spencer, Julie and Hector. Who set themselves up as lights for the praise and glory of man.
I am so grateful for 13 about to be 15 prophets seers and revelatory, who guide the affairs of the Lord! Who are His mouthpiece. I know with all my heart, they will not lead us astray and if we are teachable, we can learn from them and come closer to our Savior Jesus Christ.

His dream and your comment reminded me of a conference talk. It took a while to dig up because I thought it might have been President Hinckley (he does quote someone else about life being like an old time rail journey), but it actually turns out to be Elder Glenn L. Pace of the 70 from the October 1992 General Conference:

Many of us take the blessings of the gospel for granted. It is as if we are passengers on the train of the Church, which has been moving forward gradually and methodically. Sometimes we have looked out the window and thought, “That looks kind of fun out there. This train is so restrictive.” So we have jumped off and gone and played in the woods for a while. Sooner or later we find it isn’t as much fun as Lucifer makes it appear or we get critically injured, so we work our way back to the tracks and see the train ahead. With a determined sprint we catch up to it, breathlessly wipe the perspiration from our forehead, and thank the Lord for repentance.

While on the train we can see the world and some of our own members outside laughing and having a great time. They taunt us and coax us to get off. Some throw logs and rocks on the tracks to try and derail it. Other members run alongside the tracks, and while they may never go play in the woods, they just can’t seem to get on the train. Others try to run ahead and too often take the wrong turn.

I would propose that the luxury of getting on and off the train as we please is fading. The speed of the train is increasing. The woods are getting much too dangerous, and the fog and darkness are moving in.

Although our detractors might as well “stretch forth [their] puny arm(s) to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream” (D&C 121:33) as try to derail this train, they are occasionally successful in coaxing individuals off. With all the prophecies we have seen fulfilled, what great event are we awaiting prior to saying, “Count me in”? What more do we need to see or experience before we get on the train and stay on it until we reach our destination? It is time for a spiritual revival. It is time to dig down deep within ourselves and rekindle our own light.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... l?lang=eng

[DesertWonderer2]

Thank you Onsdag for posting this. That was the funniest thing I’ve read since Julie stopped her poscasts. I do hope somebody finds the rest of his vision. No doubt that the end will be more entertaining than what was published for free.

[Todd]

Thank you Onsdag for posting this. That was the funniest thing I’ve read since Julie stopped her poscasts. I do hope somebody finds the rest of his vision. No doubt that the end will be more entertaining than what was published for free.

You are correct. The pay-per-view ending was disturbing.

[Onsdag]

All good points Ondsdag.

Too bad you didn’t shell out the money to see the real zinger in the train dream on the super private forum. The short of it is that in the future (after the first earthquake), church leaders will seek council from Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell. They will also be elevated to high church positions.

Wow.

Not sure how I missed this post at first. But if what you say is correct then wow indeed! Little wonder it's hidden behind a paywall.

I also went back and realized that the Prophet stopped being on the engine and had moved to the second car earlier than I had thought in my first post. He says that happened at the time of Gordon B. Hinckley. So he actually puts himself in the same standing as the Prophet and Apostles on the top floor and at the head of the train with a "prime view" of the world around them (watchman on the tower reference?). I also now wonder if his reference to President Hinckley lifting his cane (symbol of authority?) and smiling at him is also some kind of veiled innuendo of the Prophet giving, bestowing, or otherwise acknowledging that Chad has some kind of power/authority.

[Mcox]

It appears that Chad Daybell has missed the “train” This is what happens when you do not stay with the mainstream of the church. I’m sure he is involved with energy healing, as his bff julie Rowe is. This practice opens doors to strange manifestations and “dreams”.
And by the way, Lehi, Abinadi and Samuel were all prophets called of God. Unlike spencer, Julie and Hector. Who set themselves up as lights for the praise and glory of man.
I am so grateful for 13 about to be 15 prophets seers and revelatory, who guide the affairs of the Lord! Who are His mouthpiece. I know with all my heart, they will not lead us astray and if we are teachable, we can learn from them and come closer to our Savior Jesus Christ.

His dream and your comment reminded me of a conference talk. It took a while to dig up because I thought it might have been President Hinckley (he does quote someone else about life being like an old time rail journey), but it actually turns out to be Elder Glenn L. Pace of the 70 from the October 1992 General Conference:

Many of us take the blessings of the gospel for granted. It is as if we are passengers on the train of the Church, which has been moving forward gradually and methodically. Sometimes we have looked out the window and thought, “That looks kind of fun out there. This train is so restrictive.” So we have jumped off and gone and played in the woods for a while. Sooner or later we find it isn’t as much fun as Lucifer makes it appear or we get critically injured, so we work our way back to the tracks and see the train ahead. With a determined sprint we catch up to it, breathlessly wipe the perspiration from our forehead, and thank the Lord for repentance.

While on the train we can see the world and some of our own members outside laughing and having a great time. They taunt us and coax us to get off. Some throw logs and rocks on the tracks to try and derail it. Other members run alongside the tracks, and while they may never go play in the woods, they just can’t seem to get on the train. Others try to run ahead and too often take the wrong turn.

I would propose that the luxury of getting on and off the train as we please is fading. The speed of the train is increasing. The woods are getting much too dangerous, and the fog and darkness are moving in.

Although our detractors might as well “stretch forth [their] puny arm(s) to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream” (D&C 121:33) as try to derail this train, they are occasionally successful in coaxing individuals off. With all the prophecies we have seen fulfilled, what great event are we awaiting prior to saying, “Count me in”? What more do we need to see or experience before we get on the train and stay on it until we reach our destination? It is time for a spiritual revival. It is time to dig down deep within ourselves and rekindle our own light.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... l?lang=eng

Good article, Onsdag. Thanks for posting

[mirkwood]

All good points Ondsdag.

Too bad you didn’t shell out the money to see the real zinger in the train dream on the super private forum. The short of it is that in the future (after the first earthquake), church leaders will seek council from Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell. They will also be elevated to high church positions.

Wow.

got a screenshot of that?

[shadow]

Oh, a train dream from Daybell. Cue in some Ozzy Osbourne.

[Todd]

All good points Ondsdag.

Too bad you didn’t shell out the money to see the real zinger in the train dream on the super private forum. The short of it is that in the future (after the first earthquake), church leaders will seek council from Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell. They will also be elevated to high church positions.

Wow.

Not sure how I missed this post at first. But if what you say is correct then wow indeed! Little wonder it's hidden behind a paywall.

I also went back and realized that the Prophet stopped being on the engine and had moved to the second car earlier than I had thought in my first post. He says that happened at the time of Gordon B. Hinckley. So he actually puts himself in the same standing as the Prophet and Apostles on the top floor and at the head of the train with a "prime view" of the world around them (watchman on the tower reference?). I also now wonder if his reference to President Hinckley lifting his cane (symbol of authority?) and smiling at him is also some kind of veiled innuendo of the Prophet giving, bestowing, or otherwise acknowledging that Chad has some kind of power/authority.

Yeah. I can see why Chad kept the last bit private.

To be accurate, Chad mentions Spencer, Julie and Hector as the three visionaries who were often consulted by church leaders after the earthquake. Not Chad. Some of the visionaries over time were even called to high positions.

What I don’t get is how does that play out in a vision? It sounds more like narrative from a work of fiction.

I’m not trying to mock Chad or any of his visionaries, but his dream of the prophet seeking counsel from a group of dreamers who are more enlightened is quite disturbing to me.

Chad works hard to justify his position with historical precedent, but what he is suggesting are the seeds of apostasy.

[Onsdag]

All good points Ondsdag.

Too bad you didn’t shell out the money to see the real zinger in the train dream on the super private forum. The short of it is that in the future (after the first earthquake), church leaders will seek council from Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell. They will also be elevated to high church positions.

Wow.

Not sure how I missed this post at first. But if what you say is correct then wow indeed! Little wonder it's hidden behind a paywall.

I also went back and realized that the Prophet stopped being on the engine and had moved to the second car earlier than I had thought in my first post. He says that happened at the time of Gordon B. Hinckley. So he actually puts himself in the same standing as the Prophet and Apostles on the top floor and at the head of the train with a "prime view" of the world around them (watchman on the tower reference?). I also now wonder if his reference to President Hinckley lifting his cane (symbol of authority?) and smiling at him is also some kind of veiled innuendo of the Prophet giving, bestowing, or otherwise acknowledging that Chad has some kind of power/authority.

Yeah. I can see why Chad kept the last bit private.

To be accurate, Chad mentions Spencer, Julie and Hector as the three visionaries who were often consulted by church leaders after the earthquake. Not Chad. Some of the visionaries over time were even called to high positions.

What I don’t get is how does that play out in a vision? It sounds more like narrative from a work of fiction.

I’m not trying to mock Chad or any of his visionaries, but his dream of the prophet seeking counsel from a group of dreamers who are more enlightened is quite disturbing to me.

Chad works hard to justify his position with historical precedent, but what he is suggesting are the seeds of apostasy.

That was some of my thinking as well - that perhaps this series of dreams didn't actually happen, but were fabricated with a specific agenda in mind. Some things just seem really odd and, yes, disturbing.

[sushi_chef]

wow, sounds a bit farce but bold move...wonders if they say quake is man-made or not so on...

[Seek the Truth]

I think you can just delete AVOW from your favorites, shut down your accounts...

[DesertWonderer2]

All good points Ondsdag.

Too bad you didn’t shell out the money to see the real zinger in the train dream on the super private forum. The short of it is that in the future (after the first earthquake), church leaders will seek council from Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell. They will also be elevated to high church positions.

Wow.

Not sure how I missed this post at first. But if what you say is correct then wow indeed! Little wonder it's hidden behind a paywall.

I also went back and realized that the Prophet stopped being on the engine and had moved to the second car earlier than I had thought in my first post. He says that happened at the time of Gordon B. Hinckley. So he actually puts himself in the same standing as the Prophet and Apostles on the top floor and at the head of the train with a "prime view" of the world around them (watchman on the tower reference?). I also now wonder if his reference to President Hinckley lifting his cane (symbol of authority?) and smiling at him is also some kind of veiled innuendo of the Prophet giving, bestowing, or otherwise acknowledging that Chad has some kind of power/authority.

Yeah. I can see why Chad kept the last bit private.

To be accurate, Chad mentions Spencer, Julie and Hector as the three visionaries who were often consulted by church leaders after the earthquake. Not Chad. Some of the visionaries over time were even called to high positions.

What I don’t get is how does that play out in a vision? It sounds more like narrative from a work of fiction.

I’m not trying to mock Chad or any of his visionaries, but his dream of the prophet seeking counsel from a group of dreamers who are more enlightened is quite disturbing to me.

Chad works hard to justify his position with historical precedent, but what he is suggesting are the seeds of apostasy.

That was some of my thinking as well - that perhaps this series of dreams didn't actually happen, but were fabricated with a specific agenda in mind. Some things just seem really odd and, yes, disturbing.

I have no doubt that he never even had a dream about this. It screams to me as being completely made up. Remember the NDE he says he had? Before it was an NDE, it was a fictional story (i.e. he made it up). Now his story is that he just called it a fictional story to keep it hidden as a personal account. He’s given that up and now and just says he had an NDE (w/o ever having suffered a life threatening illness).

He blatantly lied to make a couple hundred $ on pay per view fees. Pathetic.

[Todd]

All good points Ondsdag.

Too bad you didn’t shell out the money to see the real zinger in the train dream on the super private forum. The short of it is that in the future (after the first earthquake), church leaders will seek council from Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell. They will also be elevated to high church positions.

Wow.

Not sure how I missed this post at first. But if what you say is correct then wow indeed! Little wonder it's hidden behind a paywall.

I also went back and realized that the Prophet stopped being on the engine and had moved to the second car earlier than I had thought in my first post. He says that happened at the time of Gordon B. Hinckley. So he actually puts himself in the same standing as the Prophet and Apostles on the top floor and at the head of the train with a "prime view" of the world around them (watchman on the tower reference?). I also now wonder if his reference to President Hinckley lifting his cane (symbol of authority?) and smiling at him is also some kind of veiled innuendo of the Prophet giving, bestowing, or otherwise acknowledging that Chad has some kind of power/authority.

Yeah. I can see why Chad kept the last bit private.

To be accurate, Chad mentions Spencer, Julie and Hector as the three visionaries who were often consulted by church leaders after the earthquake. Not Chad. Some of the visionaries over time were even called to high positions.

What I don’t get is how does that play out in a vision? It sounds more like narrative from a work of fiction.

I’m not trying to mock Chad or any of his visionaries, but his dream of the prophet seeking counsel from a group of dreamers who are more enlightened is quite disturbing to me.

Chad works hard to justify his position with historical precedent, but what he is suggesting are the seeds of apostasy.

That was some of my thinking as well - that perhaps this series of dreams didn't actually happen, but were fabricated with a specific agenda in mind. Some things just seem really odd and, yes, disturbing.

After observing the likes of Denver snuffer, Chad Daybell and Julie Rowe over the past few years, I've gotten a better picture of how members of the church slide into apostasy.

At first the message is safe and simple : Follow the prophet, but hey, you know what happened to me?

Then it evolves into: I had an experience that makes me special, but you should still follow the Prophet.

Then: I have been given hidden knowledge concerning your safety or salvation, but you should pray about it and follow the prophet.

Then: I've been called on a mission to wake people up with secret information that is too dangerous for the prophet to say, so still follow the prophet, but pay attention to what I have to say.

Then: The Prophet has turned his back on my message because we must learn not to be spoon fed the gospel. God, in times of need gives revelation to those outside the system, in order to wake up the people.

Finally: The Prophet is fallen and lost. I have been commanded to right the ship. Follow me.

[iWriteStuff]

Just received the following in an email from AVOW and thought I'd share and comment on it because of the false, dangerous, and misleading things I see being taught in it.

Nobody does their homework better than Onsdag.

Thanks for this amazing email and analysis!

[Arenera]

But I have a couple of books, one by JR and one by Spencer. The JR book is electronic, not worth the bits it takes up. The first half of VOG is bizarre. The second half is an interesting read.

But wait, I don’t need their books. The Book of Mormon is good for me.

And I thought we were on a ship, not a coal train.

Ok, where can i puke......yes, over the side of the ship. Not so good if you are on their ridiculous coal train.

[Onsdag]

Just received the following in an email from AVOW and thought I'd share and comment on it because of the false, dangerous, and misleading things I see being taught in it.

Nobody does their homework better than Onsdag.

Thanks for this amazing email and analysis!

I fear you greatly over-exaggerate my efforts. There are many wonderful and exemplary people, even here on these boards, who do much for the cause of truth and righteousness. We all do what we can within the sphere of our influence. And ultimately we are but lower lights on the shore - trimming our feeble lamps - while the Great Master of the Lighthouse shines the brighter, guiding our brothers and sisters safe and true to the harbor.

But for my small part, you're welcome!

[mirkwood]

All good points Ondsdag.

Too bad you didn’t shell out the money to see the real zinger in the train dream on the super private forum. The short of it is that in the future (after the first earthquake), church leaders will seek council from Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell. They will also be elevated to high church positions.

Wow.

Todd do you have a screenshot of him saying that? I have this one and would like to have a copy of the above if it is different.

[Todd]

All good points Ondsdag.

Too bad you didn’t shell out the money to see the real zinger in the train dream on the super private forum. The short of it is that in the future (after the first earthquake), church leaders will seek council from Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell. They will also be elevated to high church positions.

Wow.

Todd do you have a screenshot of him saying that? I have this one and would like to have a copy of the above if it is different.

Yeah. But what are the rules though? I know that AVOW can be pretty aggressive with their lawsuit saber rattling when they see their "stuff" pasted on renegade websites like LDSFF.

And that screenshot you have is not part of the dream. It is a reply to a post when someone questioned him on why the Prophet needed to outsource his ability to lead the church.