Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

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BrotherOfMahonri
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

marktheshark wrote:So what if Joseph Smith practiced polygamy or didn't?

It doesn't change my standing before the Lord one bit whether I think he did or did not.

Since the amount of evidence was compelling enough that the Church released an official statement about it, I think it's legitimate.
standing before the Lord and his love for you, not so much, but salvation, maybe...
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... lang=eng#5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BrotherOfMahonri
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

I appreciate the way Richard Stout explains this common sense understanding that shouldn't be too hard to realize to the reader unless ofcourse thick tradition clouds out the truth...

Jacob 2:30 is not a loophole for polygamy—far from it. While I don’t believe in the Book of Mormon, I do believe in grammar. Note that the verse begins with “For.” This is a conjunction that means “because.” It is “The word by which a reason is introduced of something before advanced” (Webster’s 1828 dictionary).

However, “Because” won’t fit the Mormon apologists’ interpretation—v. 30 doesn’t answer why the Nephites must obey God’s commandment to stop polygamy (expressed in the previous verse). Mormons must pretend “For” means “but” or “however” or “nevertheless” in order to completely switch horses in the middle of the stream, so to speak.

So what does v. 30 really mean? Let’s break it down:
“For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me.” V. 25 has already said God “led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.” That’s the SEED referred to later in v. 30. A companion verse is 1 Nephi 7:12--“. . . [Lehi’s] sons should take daughters to wife, that they might RAISE UP SEED UNTO THE LORD in the land of promise.”

“. . . I will command my people.” This clause does not mean or say, “I will command my people to commit polygamy” as Mormon apologists try to influence people into believing. It refers back to the previous verse regarding the people keeping Gods commandments AGAINST polygamy. “Command” here simply means “govern” or “rule.” It’s similar to a general saying, “I will command the army.” Obviously, if the people disobey His COMMANDments, then God is not in command of the people, and their seed will not be righteous.

“. . . otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.” Mormons would claim “things” here refers to God’s commandments, but these “things” were identified already in v. 23--“for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the THINGS which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.”

Putting it all together in a paraphrase, Jacob 30 actually means: “Because if I will raise up a righteous branch here in the Promised Land, I will govern my people; otherwise they shall listen to the things written about David and Solomon and continue committing whoredoms.”...
http://www.defendingjoseph.com/2008/11/ ... 5230191576" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also...
Jacob 3: 5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father(Lehi)—that they should have save it were ONE wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.

This is completely unequicoval in its condemnation of having more than one wife irregardless of what that process is called, be it polygamy, polyandry, plural marriage or the spiritual wife system. It is a commandment given to all of God's people. Calling something by another name doesn't change what it really is. You can call a rattlesnake a big earthworm but it is still a rattlesnake.

6 And now, this commandment they observe to keep; wherefore, because of this observance, in keeping this commandment, the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be merciful unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people.

Amazingly we learn here just the fact the Lamanites observed this commandment was enough to offset the punishment for all their other unrighteous acts, allowing them to be saved from total destruction, which the Nephites suffered. And then they are promised they will become a "blessed people" for keeping this commandment. This is Huge! Could it be any clearer how the Lord feels about the sanctity of marriage being between only ONE man and ONE woman? How many times and in how many ways must he say it? And it is wisdom to throw all this out the window because of the misunderstanding of the meaning of the word, 'otherwise'? You think God will give you a pass for that? "Sorry God, I ignored everything else you revealed about this and common sense and logic because I thought you created a loophole with a single word, which I didn't even bother to look up in a period-correct dictionary". Good luck with that.
http://www.defendingjoseph.com/2008/11/ ... 1831213582" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

An invite to re read those chapters and ask the Lord to help you hear the Spirit's voice as you read to help undo the false tradition which will be cleared by the Lord in some future point in the church.


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Obrien
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Obrien »

BoM - DING! Light bulb moment today. Thx for posting this thread.

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ajax
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by ajax »

Obrien wrote:BoM - DING! Light bulb moment today. Thx for posting this thread.
Shareable?

I don't think the church would ever renounce as you suggest BoM, it would completely destroy the cred and authority and claims of those who came after.

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Obrien
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Obrien »

ajax wrote:
Obrien wrote:BoM - DING! Light bulb moment today. Thx for posting this thread.
Shareable?

I don't think the church would ever renounce as you suggest BoM, it would completely destroy the cred and authority and claims of those who came after.
Sure, but it will take awhile to make it cogent. Also, busy cleaning up a few issues at work today in preparation for a change. I'll edit this post later and expand on the ding. It is likely not a profound ding to many of the smart people here - likely just for me, but I'll share. :)

Faith
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Faith »

durangout wrote:
Faith wrote:This subject had rocked my world, shaken my core, and caused me great sorrow.
How exactly?
I grew up only learning about Joseph & Emma's love story. For some reason it was never mentioned in all my learning at home, or at church, that Joseph had participated in plural marriage. I obviously wasn't studying the D&C.

I hadn't been married for very long before I finally realized it. There was a movie out called Emma Smith- My Story, and people were talking about all she went through.

For many years I was absolutely lost and wandering in deep pain and anger over Joseph having plural wives. I studied many accounts of journal entries written by some of his wives. ( these accounts my brother - brother of Mahonri- also the brother of me, and 5 more siblings. - he thinks they are made up accounts written by the hands of mob members and those out to destroy Joseph's good name---

Well I read these women 'a accounts and a warmth rushed over me and I wept. One of these women in particular would rather have died and was in the depths of hell over Joseph asking her hand in marriage. Her dreams of true love and finding her eternalate were dashed. She now was faced with a man who loved his Emma, and was married to others also. She was devistated and took months to respond. In each account Joseph never put on any pressure. In each account these women had sacred and amazing experiences where the veil of the eternities were lifted from their eyes, and they were shown the glory of entering into this Celestial practice of plural marriage- and they each came back to Joseph, filled with heavenly knowledge- and accepted his offer of eternal marriage.

Even though I had this experience where I was filled with joy and warmth that only the Spirit could offer--- I forced myself to shun it as the following months and years passed. I let the adversary tweak with my heart over the matter of polygamy . I convinced myself that I was worthless as a daughter of God, and that He women were of significant less value to Him. My view of the gospel, myself, marriage - was dismal.

But this was all Satan's lie. I can testify of that now. Polygamy can not fully be understood by the flawed mortal man & woman here. But our testimonies of faith and hope and answers concerning these things can bring us divine peace.
Last edited by Faith on May 20th, 2015, 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

braingrunt
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by braingrunt »

I testify that Jacob 2:30 is indeed an exception clause. My analysis is elsewhere on this site, and is in direct opposition to the analysis BOM posted, and in my opinion goes at least as deep. But I feel it's not worth debating over anymore, not for me anyway.

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Tony
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Tony »

All the people who stoned and killed the prophets thought they were the ones with "common sense." The people who constantly attacked the saints in the early days of the Church thought they had "common sense." The telestial kingdom will be full of people who thought they had "common sense."

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ajax
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by ajax »

Tony wrote: The telestial kingdom will be full of people who thought they had "common sense."
You're in it now. Welcome. How to get out?

marktheshark
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by marktheshark »

BrotherOfMahonri wrote:
marktheshark wrote:So what if Joseph Smith practiced polygamy or didn't?

It doesn't change my standing before the Lord one bit whether I think he did or did not.

Since the amount of evidence was compelling enough that the Church released an official statement about it, I think it's legitimate.
standing before the Lord and his love for you, not so much, but salvation, maybe...
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... lang=eng#5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I thought I received the prestigious honor of being placed on your ignore list.

BrotherOfMahonri
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

ajax wrote:
Obrien wrote:BoM - DING! Light bulb moment today. Thx for posting this thread.
Shareable?

I don't think the church would ever renounce as you suggest BoM, it would completely destroy the cred and authority and claims of those who came after.
Kind of like the pattern we find in the scriptures, you know with Josiah, Christ, Isaiah, Lehi, Alma Sr., Samuel, to name a few - destory whatever close resemblence to the truth they were working at but missed the mark (no matter how good they were) being given what they wanted most from a God who respects agency of man. He beckons, invites, prods, and entices, but ultimately we get what we want most, and that is what we have today in the church. It will change soon enough per the Lord's own strange act.

BrotherOfMahonri
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

marktheshark wrote:
BrotherOfMahonri wrote:
marktheshark wrote:So what if Joseph Smith practiced polygamy or didn't?

It doesn't change my standing before the Lord one bit whether I think he did or did not.

Since the amount of evidence was compelling enough that the Church released an official statement about it, I think it's legitimate.
standing before the Lord and his love for you, not so much, but salvation, maybe...
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... lang=eng#5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I thought I received the prestigious honor of being placed on your ignore list.
I was just shy of 490 and so held out hope... now I'm justified after this post :D

BrotherOfMahonri
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

Faith wrote:
durangout wrote:
Faith wrote:This subject had rocked my world, shaken my core, and caused me great sorrow.
How exactly?
I grew up only learning about Joseph & Emma's love story. For some reason it was never mentioned in all my learning at home, or at church, that Joseph had participated in plural marriage. I obviously wasn't studying the D&C.

I hadn't been married for very long before I finally realized it. There was a movie out called Emma Smith- My Story, and people were talking about all she went through.

For many years I was absolutely lost and wandering in deep pain and anger over Joseph having plural wives. I studied many accounts of journal entries written by some of his wives. ( these accounts my brother - brother of Mahonri- also the brother of me, [ edited: please refrain from putting names of siblings on here without their knowledge or permission] -- he thinks they are made up accounts written by the hands of mob members and those out to destroy Joseph's good name---

Well I read these women 'a accounts and a warmth rushed over me and I wept. One of these women in particular would rather have died and was in the depths of hell over Joseph asking her hand in marriage. Her dreams of true love and finding her eternalate were dashed. She now was faced with a man who loved his Emma, and was married to others also. She was devistated and took months to respond. In each account Joseph never put on any pressure. In each account these women had sacred and amazing experiences where the veil of the eternities were lifted from their eyes, and they were shown the glory of entering into this Celestial practice of plural marriage- and they each came back to Joseph, filled with heavenly knowledge- and accepted his offer of eternal marriage.

Even though I had this experience where I was filled with joy and warmth that only the Spirit could offer--- I forced myself to shun it as the following months and years passed. I let the adversary tweak with my heart over the matter of polygamy . I convinced myself that I was worthless as a daughter of God, and that He women were of significant less value to Him. My view of the gospel, myself, marriage - was dismal.

But this was all Satan's lie. I can testify of that now. Polygamy can not fully be understood by the flawed mortal man & woman here. But our testimonies of faith and hope and answers concerning these things can bring us divine peace.
A warm rush eh? Dear sister, watch this:
https://youtu.be/ycUvC9s4VYA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then an invite to watch the entire series he shares...
https://www.youtube.com/user/askreality/videos" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Watching that first video, all those other people who had the warm rush (which are countless), the spirit testify to them, they were all wrong of course because they are not LDS? One must really work on (and this has been my journey since and before I last saw you sister) being able to hear and properly follow the Lord's spirit in our lives (which can be more difficult when we fear man and man's authority or threatenings, and esp. when we have engrained false traditions from years and decades to fight through).

It would be foolish to get a testimony of the book of mormon (which I have) and think that the warmth we feel means that everything connected to the book is true. Hence, when we say I know the church is true because of the spirit we feel reading the book of mormon, we do so in ignorance, same with other things. An invite to prayerfully consider what is discussed in that video series to all. I don't agree with it 100%, but it has added to my journey of distinguishing the spirit's voice when I do feel it, and learn not to allow the adversary to make me think it means all these other things, when it meant yes to one thing or comfort or peace or love.
Last edited by BrotherOfMahonri on May 20th, 2015, 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

lesk
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by lesk »

marktheshark wrote:So what if Joseph Smith practiced polygamy or didn't?

It doesn't change my standing before the Lord one bit whether I think he did or did not.

Since the amount of evidence was compelling enough that the Church released an official statement about it, I think it's legitimate.
I'm not sure that the church is an unbiased participant in this discussion though. The facts seem to suggest that JS was sealed to multiple women, but there is also reason to believe that those marriages were not consummated.

BrotherOfMahonri
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

braingrunt wrote:I testify that Jacob 2:30 is indeed an exception clause. My analysis is elsewhere on this site, and is in direct opposition to the analysis BOM posted, and in my opinion goes at least as deep. But I feel it's not worth debating over anymore, not for me anyway.
Do you have a link to this analysis for our reading?

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jbalm
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by jbalm »

braingrunt wrote:I testify that Jacob 2:30 is indeed an exception clause. My analysis is elsewhere on this site, and is in direct opposition to the analysis BOM posted, and in my opinion goes at least as deep. But I feel it's not worth debating over anymore, not for me anyway.
When you say "I testify," what does that mean, exactly? Did God tell you that your interpretation is correct? Or do you just really, really believe you are correct?

Mormonspeak is frustrating sometimes.

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jbalm
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by jbalm »

rewcox wrote:I don't think so.

Abraham actually practiced it, he is a God now.
Source for that please.

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Joel
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Joel »

jbalm wrote:
braingrunt wrote:I testify that Jacob 2:30 is indeed an exception clause. My analysis is elsewhere on this site, and is in direct opposition to the analysis BOM posted, and in my opinion goes at least as deep. But I feel it's not worth debating over anymore, not for me anyway.
When you say "I testify," what does that mean, exactly?
this maybe:


nvr
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by nvr »

I'm not sure what the actions will be of the Church in the near future, but the OP is on target on his points. The church may eventually resolve the historical accounts, perhaps with new leadership or when they make it more a priority. It is unfortunate I think that they put out that research paper as if it was a definitive historical account. Many of the points can be discounted because they were based accounts many years afterwards by witnesses who were involved in polygamy themselves. Enemies of Joseph were the source of many of the false accounts of him preaching or practicing polygamy.

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rewcox
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by rewcox »

jbalm wrote:
rewcox wrote:I don't think so.

Abraham actually practiced it, he is a God now.
Source for that please.
D&C 132
28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.
Das es correcto.

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kgrigio
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by kgrigio »

BrotherOfMahonri wrote: Many of you will simply tell me I’m wrong about this, that is cute and just fine, but this pattern God works in so we are not deceived by Satan, is a real pattern, discernable in the scriptures and the pattern is plain, one man and one woman. God never commands polygamy anywhere.

Again, I have a witness that such is true, and I declare it by the workings of the Holy Spirit and invite you to ask God to strip yourself of unbelief in the matter and he will mercifully open things up even further than you might currently be willing to receive because of unbelief (believing in things that are not true).
BoM, I really, honestly don't want to be mean or offensive here, but didn't you receive a witness that you needed to renounce your LDS church membership? Was your witness for renouncing as strong as your witness on this topic? I am suspect, as one that has a witness that this is the Lord's church, that your witness on any topic related to the church is valid. I don't mean this to be offensive, but can you see where people like me are coming from?

For those of us that have witnesses that the the LDS church is the Lord's church here on the earth and is directed by His prophets and apostles, I don't need a specific witness as to the veracity of polygamy and it's practices or lack thereof within the church. I know that the Lord's mind and will is being revealed to me on topics required for my salvation and that of my family and one of those revelations is the prophets are running the church today.

To the original statement that the church will renounce all aspects of polygamy, you do realize this will put the church in the position of saying that it knowing lied when it issued the essay on polygamy, right? There is no way around it. The church can put out the essay on polygamy and then at a later date state that essay was in fact a lie and not lose all credibility from all sides. The faithful will say, what else is the church lying about and the detractors will laugh and say, they knew all along. The result of both cases will be to cause everyone to run from the church. It won't bring back any detractors.

Faith
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Faith »

I grew up only learning about Joseph & Emma's love story. For some reason it was never mentioned in all my learning at home, or at church, that Joseph had participated in plural marriage. I obviously wasn't studying the D&C.

I hadn't been married for very long before I finally realized it. There was a movie out called Emma Smith- My Story, and people were talking about all she went through.

For many years I was absolutely lost and wandering in deep pain and anger over Joseph having plural wives. I studied many accounts of journal entries written by some of his wives. ( these accounts my brother - brother of Mahonri- also the brother of me, [ edited: please refrain from putting names of siblings on here without their knowledge or permission] -- he thinks they are made up accounts written by the hands of mob members and those out to destroy Joseph's good name---

Well I read these women 'a accounts and a warmth rushed over me and I wept. One of these women in particular would rather have died and was in the depths of hell over Joseph asking her hand in marriage. Her dreams of true love and finding her eternalate were dashed. She now was faced with a man who loved his Emma, and was married to others also. She was devistated and took months to respond. In each account Joseph never put on any pressure. In each account these women had sacred and amazing experiences where the veil of the eternities were lifted from their eyes, and they were shown the glory of entering into this Celestial practice of plural marriage- and they each came back to Joseph, filled with heavenly knowledge- and accepted his offer of eternal marriage.

Even though I had this experience where I was filled with joy and warmth that only the Spirit could offer--- I forced myself to shun it as the following months and years passed. I let the adversary tweak with my heart over the matter of polygamy . I convinced myself that I was worthless as a daughter of God, and that He women were of significant less value to Him. My view of the gospel, myself, marriage - was dismal.

But this was all Satan's lie. I can testify of that now. Polygamy can not fully be understood by the flawed mortal man & woman here. But our testimonies of faith and hope and answers concerning these things can bring us divine peace.[/quote]
BrotherOfMahonri wrote:A warm rush eh? Dear sister, watch this:
https://youtu.be/ycUvC9s4VYA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then an invite to watch the entire series he shares...
https://www.youtube.com/user/askreality/videos" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Watching that first video, all those other people who had the warm rush (which are countless), the spirit testify to them, they were all wrong of course because they are not LDS? One must really work on (and this has been my journey since and before I last saw you sister) being able to hear and properly follow the Lord's spirit in our lives (which can be more difficult when we fear man and man's authority or threatenings, and esp. when we have engrained false traditions from years and decades to fight through).

It would be foolish to get a testimony of the book of mormon (which I have) and think that the warmth we feel means that everything connected to the book is true. Hence, when we say I know the church is true because of the spirit we feel reading the book of mormon, we do so in ignorance, same with other things. An invite to prayerfully consider what is discussed in that video series to all. I don't agree with it 100%, but it has added to my journey of distinguishing the spirit's voice when I do feel it, and learn not to allow the adversary to make me think it means all these other things, when it meant yes to one thing or comfort or peace or love.
Oh how I wish I was your dear sister. Oh how I wish we were allowed in your lives! Oh how I wished we weren't shunned and condemned and labeled. Our differences mean nothing. Our family means something. Why can't we be a family and love one another despite out differences. Tell Mahonri Jr. His cousin Says hi- and that he misses him.

Farewell my bro.

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jbalm
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by jbalm »

rewcox wrote:
jbalm wrote:
rewcox wrote:I don't think so.

Abraham actually practiced it, he is a God now.
Source for that please.
D&C 132
28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.
Das es correcto.
Kind of a dubious source. Especially for this thread. It's like saying Scientology is true because L. Ron Hubbard says so.

braingrunt
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by braingrunt »

BrotherOfMahonri wrote:
braingrunt wrote:I testify that Jacob 2:30 is indeed an exception clause. My analysis is elsewhere on this site, and is in direct opposition to the analysis BOM posted, and in my opinion goes at least as deep. But I feel it's not worth debating over anymore, not for me anyway.
Do you have a link to this analysis for our reading?
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36550&start=30#p549435" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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