Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Evergrow
captain of 100
Posts: 110

Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Evergrow »

Image

This is the same guy who had the image of FAIR and UTLM or whatever calling them both the "same" right?
He now has the above new image.

Anyway, I want to correct this anti-mormon false presentation of FAIR and what it does.
First, note how he quotes a FAIR statement on a subject, and then quotes something the Church has said on the same subject.
He quotes mines, ignoring certain contexts and facts in order to create the impression that FAIR is not representative of the Church.

Here however is the problem with his judgment.

The reason FAIR stated what it has is for a very good reason. The reason is that the idea that we will "have our own worlds" etc. is not in fact a "doctrine" of a Church. Yes, it is a common belief and assumption in the Church, but it's just that, a belief and assumption from what the actual doctrine is. The Church teaches many things and subjects that are not actually doctrine. All religions in fact do this.

This is why FAIR said what it said the way it said it. It's dealing with anti-mormonism, thus it has to be accurate and "precise" in explaining things. One reason for this is because Anti-mormons quote mine statements from history, and make them ALL "doctrines" of the Church when they absolutely were not, never were, or are not. The actual doctrine is that we will stand on God's Right Hand, be Joint Heirs with Christ, and Inherit all the Father hath, etc... That is the actual doctrine. Us having our own worlds we will rule over, etc. is an "assumption" from that doctrine. It's likely a true assumption, hence why it's taught, but it's not a doctrine.

In conclusion, it is not that FAIR is contradicting the Church, it's that FAIR is being accurate and precise in explaining what is and isn't doctrine. Take for example a negative example from history. Some taught blacks were "less valiant in the Pre-Mortal life". In fact, this idea was likely often taught by many members. Problem is, it's not actually a "doctrine" of the Church, and never was. It's an "assumption" from another doctrine, i.e. the LDS doctrine of pre-mortality that what we are here is related to who were were there. But, as we all now know, it is a FALSE assumption.

Further, FAIR is not the only ones who are being more precise here. The Church itself is also the last 20 years especially striving to be more precise itself, striving to prevent problems such as concerning blacks and the priesthood. For example, when was the last time you heard LDS leaders teach the idea that "God was once a man"? You don't. In fact, President Hinckley even debunked the idea in an interview that anti's spaz on. Well, more precise, he was making clear that that point isn't actually doctrine. The doctrine is that we can become like God. However, the King Follet Discourse statements are not officially doctrine. A true belief yes within mormonism, but not actually doctrine. Doctrine only comes from the scriptures and official pronouncements by the presidency. God being once a man is not officially in the scriptures. Christ imply's it, hence the origination of the KFD, but it's not directly stated.

Anyway, I hope I've clarified this LIE that FAIR and anti-mormonism are the same things.
UTLM lies, FAIR clarifies and corrects the lies, and is in full conformity with LDS Theology and Doctrines. Anyone that is mentally sane and a good member of the Church should know this.

User avatar
7cylon7
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1137

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by 7cylon7 »

You won't get your own planet it's much much worse. You will get your own UNIVERSE!!!... muhahahahahahahh muuuhhhahahahahahah....



User avatar
Mahonri
Master
Posts: 3949
Location: Where you want to be when crap hits the fan, but I'm not telling.

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Mahonri »

Glad to see FAIR here spreading its lies while calling others liars. The anti-mormon lies of FAIR are easy to recognize and easily proven, which is why they do more damage than good. Their easily proven lies lead to so many leaving the Church instead of being able to embrace the uncomfortable and like Parley P. Pratt say "YES! that is what we believe and that is why we are the true Church!"

That is my view as well. It is too bad that in the name of protecting some feel the need to splice words like layers and look like liars instead of embracing the truth for the beauty that it is. resorting to name calling (anyone that is sane) is always the tactic of someone with the truth on their side... oh what.. :-$ :-s

User avatar
Mark
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6929

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Mark »

Mahonri wrote:Glad to see FAIR here spreading its lies while calling others liars. The anti-mormon lies of FAIR are easy to recognize and easily proven, which is why they do more damage than good. Their easily proven lies lead to so many leaving the Church instead of being able to embrace the uncomfortable and like Parley P. Pratt say "YES! that is what we believe and that is why we are the true Church!"

That is my view as well. It is too bad that in the name of protecting some feel the need to splice words like layers and look like liars instead of embracing the truth for the beauty that it is. resorting to name calling (anyone that is sane) is always the tactic of someone with the truth on their side... oh what.. :-$ :-s

There seems to be some kind of personal beef issue you have with FAIR Mahonri. Did they kick you out of a seminar sometime in the past? :-\ I am not an expert with FAIR but it seems to me that with all the attacks that the church receives from a variety of anti-Mormon sources you or any active LDS would welcome an organization that wants to set the record straight and actually defends the church and its teachings from slanderous assaults. What am I missing here?

User avatar
iamse7en
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1440

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by iamse7en »

Lol, this thread should be fun. Regarding the "doctrinal" question. I've already addressed my thoughts here. "Doctrine" is clearly an ever-evolving body of thought that changes based on who is in charge. Welcome to the board, FAIR! (assuming you read this)

User avatar
ithink
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3211
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by ithink »

Evergrow wrote:Image

This is the same guy who had the image of FAIR and UTLM or whatever calling them both the "same" right?
He now has the above new image.

Anyway, I want to correct this anti-mormon false presentation of FAIR and what it does.
First, note how he quotes a FAIR statement on a subject, and then quotes something the Church has said on the same subject.
He quotes mines, ignoring certain contexts and facts in order to create the impression that FAIR is not representative of the Church.

Here however is the problem with his judgment.

The reason FAIR stated what it has is for a very good reason. The reason is that the idea that we will "have our own worlds" etc. is not in fact a "doctrine" of a Church. Yes, it is a common belief and assumption in the Church, but it's just that, a belief and assumption from what the actual doctrine is. The Church teaches many things and subjects that are not actually doctrine. All religions in fact do this.

This is why FAIR said what it said the way it said it. It's dealing with anti-mormonism, thus it has to be accurate and "precise" in explaining things. One reason for this is because Anti-mormons quote mine statements from history, and make them ALL "doctrines" of the Church when they absolutely were not, never were, or are not. The actual doctrine is that we will stand on God's Right Hand, be Joint Heirs with Christ, and Inherit all the Father hath, etc... That is the actual doctrine. Us having our own worlds we will rule over, etc. is an "assumption" from that doctrine. It's likely a true assumption, hence why it's taught, but it's not a doctrine.

In conclusion, it is not that FAIR is contradicting the Church, it's that FAIR is being accurate and precise in explaining what is and isn't doctrine. Take for example a negative example from history. Some taught blacks were "less valiant in the Pre-Mortal life". In fact, this idea was likely often taught by many members. Problem is, it's not actually a "doctrine" of the Church, and never was. It's an "assumption" from another doctrine, i.e. the LDS doctrine of pre-mortality that what we are here is related to who were were there. But, as we all now know, it is a FALSE assumption.

Further, FAIR is not the only ones who are being more precise here. The Church itself is also the last 20 years especially striving to be more precise itself, striving to prevent problems such as concerning blacks and the priesthood. For example, when was the last time you heard LDS leaders teach the idea that "God was once a man"? You don't. In fact, President Hinckley even debunked the idea in an interview that anti's spaz on. Well, more precise, he was making clear that that point isn't actually doctrine. The doctrine is that we can become like God. However, the King Follet Discourse statements are not officially doctrine. A true belief yes within mormonism, but not actually doctrine. Doctrine only comes from the scriptures and official pronouncements by the presidency. God being once a man is not officially in the scriptures. Christ imply's it, hence the origination of the KFD, but it's not directly stated.

Anyway, I hope I've clarified this LIE that FAIR and anti-mormonism are the same things.
UTLM lies, FAIR clarifies and corrects the lies, and is in full conformity with LDS Theology and Doctrines. Anyone that is mentally sane and a good member of the Church should know this.
Evergrow, the reason I stopped going to FAIR for any answers to any question I had was because they will never call a spade a spade. I like the way a child operates, where they can and are able to call people fat in public -- because they are. "Repent, and become as a little child". Children won't over explain things and won't even "apologize". Anyone apologizing for "the Lords church" should consider why the Lord said "I the Lord have spoken what I have spoken and I excuse not myself". That is because the truth needs no apology. Now as for the avatar, here what I see and how it might have been handled better. "Do Latter-Day Saints believe they will get their own planet?" vs. Henry B. Eyring: "We may one day create worlds, people and govern them". The difference that should have been attacked before you called anyone "anti-mormon" was to point out that one statement employs "will", and the other employs "may". If the question was worded "Do Latter-Day Saints believe they may get their own planet?" then that might actually be what the church teaches -- and in fact it is because Eyring, an authority in the church, said just that. Now whether we "may" or not is the actual question being asked, the question is "will" we? And of course the answer is we don't know, so the apparent dichotomy in between the question and the statement by Eyring is what I would attack. Furthermore, the statement of "get their own planet" implies I have a planet to myself, but does even Jesus Christ have this planet to himself? I'm here, as are you, as is Satan. So what is the point of claiming ownership? Another point I would attack instead of first shouting "anti mormon", as if "mormon" could ever be conflated with "truth" (with the condescending corollary that anti mormon is false) , which some think it is but is clearly, plainly -- and truthfully: NOT.

User avatar
Wiki Wonka
captain of 10
Posts: 29
Location: California

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Wiki Wonka »

Mahonri wrote:Glad to see FAIR here spreading its lies while calling others liars. The anti-mormon lies of FAIR are easy to recognize and easily proven...
Mahonri,

I'm a member of FAIR. Here's the link to the article that you are referring to in your new avatar:

http://en.fairmormon.org/God_of_our_own_planet

Here's what is located at the beginning of the article:
Church response

From Mormonism 101: FAQ, Newsroom, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:
Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?


No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).
I would like to cordially invite you to expose the contradictions in that article between what FAIR claims and what the Church claims. Specifically, I'd like to see you prove that FAIR is "calling others liars" and that this is "easily proven." If you can find such a thing, then I promise you that I will modify the article.

I would also challenge you to replace the word "FAIR" in your avatar with "The Church." You can use their statement here: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C14

Best regards,
WW

awake
captain of 100
Posts: 960

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by awake »

ithink wrote: the reason I stopped going to FAIR for any answers to any question I had was because they will never call a spade a spade.

I agree. I don't trust FAIR because they seem so unwilling to deal with the 'whole truth' about so many vital things. Thus, they seem to perpetuate so many popular falsehoods accepted in the Church.

Like
Member
Posts: 2358

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Like »

I am wondering, did FAIR write the Q&A's for the LDS Church's Mormonism 101: FAQ page?
Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C14" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just about every Latter-day Saint I know believes that they will “get their own planet” if they are true and faithful.

User avatar
laronius
captain of 100
Posts: 644

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by laronius »

I think a lot of the problem here is symantics. When someone outside the church asks if we get our own planet, they do so thinking that instead of us floating on a cloud somewhere we get our own planet to hang out on through the eternities. If this is what they mean, then NO we don't believe that, or at least it is not taught as doctrine. But we as members of the church see that question as meaning our potential to become like God and participate in the creation or worlds and the peopling of them. We ought to pay less attention to what is said and more attention to what is meant.

Evergrow
captain of 100
Posts: 110

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Evergrow »

awake wrote:
ithink wrote: the reason I stopped going to FAIR for any answers to any question I had was because they will never call a spade a spade.
I agree. I don't trust FAIR because they seem so unwilling to deal with the 'whole truth' about so many vital things. Thus, they seem to perpetuate so many popular falsehoods accepted in the Church.
Honestly, please tell me what planet you are on???
That is all FAIR does is "deal with the whole truth". It takes the claims of anti-mormons and debunked them with the WHOLE TRUTH, contrary to anti-mormon misrepresentation, half truths, perversions, etc. of the truth. In other words, they do the complete opposite of your claim.

Further, please show me even ONE example of FAIR "perpetuating popular falsehoods"?

Evergrow
captain of 100
Posts: 110

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Evergrow »

Like wrote:I am wondering, did FAIR write the Q&A's for the LDS Church's Mormonism 101: FAQ page?
Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C14" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just about every Latter-day Saint I know believes that they will “get their own planet” if they are true and faithful.
Yes, but belief is different than actual "doctrine". Paul believed we should be single, women should not speak, etc., yet we all know those things aren't "doctrine".
Further, some used to believe various things about blacks, some of which were also put in LDS manuals, that have been proven false.

Mormons, clearly some in this thread, need to start learning to be accurate. It is by the way the very reason anti-mormons often have so much fodder against us, because of "speculations" and "assumptions" taught that are not doctrine. Inspired maybe, and true maybe, but not doctrine.

Church manuals and the Prophets state all kinds of things, from Philosophy, to Math, to C.S. Lewis, etc. That doesn't mean every word they utter is actual "doctrine". Most of it's likely true, which is why it's taught, but truth is not the same as doctrine. Doctrine only comes from the scriptures and official pronouncements and revelations thereof.

The above statement from the LDS Newsroom is correct. Our getting our own planets IS NOT in the scriptures, thus it's not doctrine.

Evergrow
captain of 100
Posts: 110

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Evergrow »

By the way, ithink above said that anti-mormonism is NOT false, and that mormonism is not equivalent to being true.

He couldn't be more wrong. Nearly every conclusion anti-mormonism makes about the Church and it's leaders most certainly IS false.
They don't tell the truth in almost anything. Yes, they use facts and truth to tell great lies, just as satan does, but they don't tell the truth.

User avatar
BroJones
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8249
Location: Varies.
Contact:

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by BroJones »

I don't know much about FAIR, but the FAQ's list from the Church is a place to send people who ask questions regarding the Church; a very good idea!
FAQs

* Introduction
* Are Mormons Christian?
* What do Mormons believe about God?
* Do Mormons believe in the Trinity?
* What is the Mormon view of the purpose of life?
* Do Mormons believe in the Bible?
* What is the Book of Mormon?
* What is a Mormon temple?
* Do Latter-day Saints believe in modern-day prophets?
* Do Latter-day Saints believe that the apostles receive revelations from God?
* Do Mormon women lead in the Church?
* Do Latter-day Saints believe they can become “gods”?
* Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?
* Do some Latter-day Saints wear temple garments?
* Do Latter-day Saints practice polygamy?
* What is the position of the Church regarding race relations?
* Do Mormons believe that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri?
* Why do you “baptize for the dead”?
* Why does the Church send out missionaries?
* Why don’t Mormons smoke or drink alcohol?
See: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Wiki Wonka
captain of 10
Posts: 29
Location: California

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Wiki Wonka »

Evergrow wrote: Further, please show me even ONE example of FAIR "perpetuating popular falsehoods"?
I second that. Some examples would be useful.

FAIR's ongoing commitment is that if errors or falsehoods are found in the FAIR Wiki, that we will correct them as quickly as possible. Critics often provide the best feedback.

WW

User avatar
Wiki Wonka
captain of 10
Posts: 29
Location: California

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Wiki Wonka »

Like wrote:I am wondering, did FAIR write the Q&A's for the LDS Church's Mormonism 101: FAQ page?
No, FAIR had nothing to do with it.
Just about every Latter-day Saint I know believes that they will “get their own planet” if they are true and faithful.
Not in California. ;)

WW

awake
captain of 100
Posts: 960

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by awake »

Evergrow wrote: Further, please show me even ONE example of FAIR "perpetuating popular falsehoods"?
I'll give you 3. I do not believe FAIR tells the real truth about the subjects of polygamy, Emma Smith, or divorce & remarriage.

But these are too controversial to discuss on this forum so I would encourage people to search out the real truth on these subjects.

Tribunal
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1496

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Tribunal »

awake wrote:
Evergrow wrote: Further, please show me even ONE example of FAIR "perpetuating popular falsehoods"?
I'll give you 3. I do not believe FAIR tells the real truth about the subjects of polygamy, Emma Smith, or divorce & remarriage.

But these are too controversial to discuss on this forum so I would encourage people to search out the real truth on these subjects.
Why would those topics be too controversial to discuss on this forum? I believe the Freedom Forum is a much better place to discuss controversial topics than on the FAIR Board. FAIR is too restrictive to talk about much. Plus the arrogance is a major turn-off.

User avatar
Wiki Wonka
captain of 10
Posts: 29
Location: California

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Wiki Wonka »

awake wrote:
Evergrow wrote: Further, please show me even ONE example of FAIR "perpetuating popular falsehoods"?
I'll give you 3. I do not believe FAIR tells the real truth about the subjects of polygamy, Emma Smith, or divorce & remarriage.

But these are too controversial to discuss on this forum so I would encourage people to search out the real truth on these subjects.
Then you have given no examples at all. You haven't even suggested where one finds "the real truth." I'll make it easier. Here are top level links to everything FAIR has on polygamy, Joseph Smith and polygamy, and Emma Smith. I don't know if we have anything on "divorce & remarriage" specifically.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_polygamy
http://en.fairmormon.org/Emma_Smith

WW
Last edited by Wiki Wonka on April 14th, 2012, 11:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Wiki Wonka
captain of 10
Posts: 29
Location: California

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Wiki Wonka »

Tribunal wrote:I believe the Freedom Forum is a much better place to discuss controversial topics than on the FAIR Board. FAIR is too restrictive to talk about much. Plus the arrogance is a major turn-off.
FAIR divested itself of the message board years ago (I assume that you are referring to MDDB?). Whatever goes on on that board, it has nothing to do with FAIR.

WW

awake
captain of 100
Posts: 960

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by awake »

Wiki Wonka wrote: Then you have given no examples at all.

WW
I gave 3 very good examples. But unfortunately they can't be discussed here. But it's not hard to find the real truth about these things if one really wants to. But the real truth will not be found on FAIR.

User avatar
Wiki Wonka
captain of 10
Posts: 29
Location: California

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Wiki Wonka »

awake wrote:
Wiki Wonka wrote: Then you have given no examples at all.

WW
I gave 3 very good examples. But unfortunately they can't be discussed here. But it's not hard to find the real truth about these things if one really wants to. But the real truth will not be found on FAIR.
You simply repeated your previous assertion without examples or links. You assert that "the real truth will not be found on FAIR."

So prove it.

Surely you can find some examples that can be discussed here?

WW

Tribunal
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1496

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Tribunal »

Wiki Wonka wrote:
Tribunal wrote:I believe the Freedom Forum is a much better place to discuss controversial topics than on the FAIR Board. FAIR is too restrictive to talk about much. Plus the arrogance is a major turn-off.
FAIR divested itself of the message board years ago (I assume that you are referring to MDDB?). Whatever goes on on that board, it has nothing to do with FAIR.

WW
Yes I was referring to the MDDB. But isn't the MDDB just the FAIR Board with a new name? Nothing changed. Same players. Same discussions. Same arrogance.

User avatar
gkearney
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5392

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by gkearney »

Tribunal wrote:
Wiki Wonka wrote:
Tribunal wrote:I believe the Freedom Forum is a much better place to discuss controversial topics than on the FAIR Board. FAIR is too restrictive to talk about much. Plus the arrogance is a major turn-off.
FAIR divested itself of the message board years ago (I assume that you are referring to MDDB?). Whatever goes on on that board, it has nothing to do with FAIR. .

WW
Yes I was referring to the MDDB. But isn't the MDDB just the FAIR Board with a new name? Nothing changed. Same players. Same discussions. Same arrogance.
No, MDDB is no longer under the control of FAIR. So while there may be some of the same people posting it is not correct to say that what goes on there has anything to do with FAIR. To do so would be the same as saying that the LDS church is accountable for what goes on in the RLDS church.

Tribunal
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1496

Re: Mahonri's Icon Image.... Re: FAIR & the Church

Post by Tribunal »

gkearney wrote:No, MDDB is no longer under the control of FAIR. So while there may be some of the same people posting it is not correct to say that what goes on there has anything to do with FAIR. To do so would be the same as saying that the LDS church is accountable for what goes on in the RLDS church.
Aren't you comparing apples to oranges? Regardless of who's in control / moderating, the MDDB has the same people posting the same stuff as the old FAIR Board. Don't get me wrong. I learned a lot on the FAIR Board and on the MDDB, and although they changed the name, in my opinion, nothing changed.

Post Reply