Another Look at Joel 2

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pjbrownie
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Another Look at Joel 2

Post by pjbrownie »

We talked about this today in Sunday School--the teacher even pulled out the talk from President Hinckley from October 2001.

Here's Joel 2: " 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

We talked about how 911 had just happened, that President Hinckley was declaring to be fulfilled what Moroni has prophesied of, that people will dream dreams, invent new things, have visions, and have the Spirit.

When pressed on 30-32, the instructor noted that in his opinion, President Hinckley was declaring 911 to be fulfillment of verse 30 in general with the "pillars of smoke" comment, referred to the destruction of the World Trade Center.

The consensus of the class was that while elements of 31-32 had definitely been fulfilled, that Hinckley was targeting what was fulfilled to verses 29-30 mostly. Verses 31-32 are what we are to look for next upon the horizon and will soon happen.

It was interesting that almost no one saw that Hinckely was targeting 31-32 as having been fulfilled through his declaration. I know we've argued about it on this post and forum, but I was intrigued that in a class setting, the view of interpretative context was the consensus versus the absolute view that all within the passage had been fulfilled completely as of 2001.

That's not to say the class wasn't wrong. I felt the Spirit strongly witness to me that verse 30 has definitely been fulfilled through the destructions of 911.

buffalo_girl
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by buffalo_girl »

Of course, you know I'm one of those who took President Hinckley's Joel 2 statement literally.

When you look at the footnotes and cross-references for Joel 2:32 - this is what comes up:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/joel/2/32g

JOEL 2
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall acall on the name of bthe Lord shall be cdelivered: for in dmount eZion and in fJerusalem shall be gdeliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the hremnant whom the Lord shall icall.



Footnotes

32a
D&C 93: 1.
1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

D&C 100: 17.
17 And all that call upon the name of the Lord, and keep his commandments, shall be saved. Even so. Amen.

TG Prayer.

b
HEB Jehovah.

c
TG Jesus Christ, Savior.
TG Salvation.

d
D&C 76: 66.
66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

e
TG Zion.

f
TG Jerusalem.

g
Obad. 1: 17 (15-17)
17 ¶ But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

h
TG Israel, Remnant of.

i
TG Israel, Gathering of.
Last edited by buffalo_girl on September 20th, 2010, 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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NoGreaterLove
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by NoGreaterLove »

Thanks BG
These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
Not built yet.
But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
We do not possess our possessions yet. Will not happen until Christ subdues all enemies under his feet and turns over the promised land to those to whom it is promised.

buffalo_girl
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by buffalo_girl »

OK, I put the lettered 'footnote' references back into verse 32. It makes reading a bit more cumbersome, but that's the way it is in the LDS Church edition.


32a.
D&C 93: 1.
1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

D&C 100: 17.
17 And all that call upon the name of the Lord, and keep his commandments, shall be saved. Even so. Amen.

d.
D&C 76: 66.
66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.


I read D&C 76:66 & these scriptures as describing the 'present tense'.

Book of Jarom, verse 11

...dlook forward unto the Messiah, and believe in him to come eas though he already was. And after this manner did they teach them.

reference d. from Jarom 11.

Ether 12: 19 (18-19)
19 And there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong, even abefore Christ came, who could not be kept from within the bveil, but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with an eye of faith, and they were glad.


Nothing denies us from being in the very presence of Christ save unrighteousness. All of Creation was organized 'spiritually' prior to being organized physically. We are at the 'time' when Zion & the City of the Living God are being manifest. The Power of the Melchizedek Priesthood has been authorized for that purpose!

Moses 6
7 Now this same aPriesthood, which was in the beginning, shall be in the end of the world also.


I'm not trying to convince you of my perspective. I'm simply explaining why I believe Joel 2:26-32 is in force.

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pjbrownie
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by pjbrownie »

I actually have a new perspective on Joel 2. If you read the entire chapter prior to verses 28-32 there is a description of the Northern army invading Israel (a very destructive army) that is only turned away after a solemn assembly caused by Israel. This is probably a historic prophesy that relates to Isaiah and is the prophecy of Assyria invading and destroying northern Israel, but Hezekiah and Judah pray until the army is repelled. Like all prophcies, this may have a duel rendering. There is most likely an historical interpretation as well as a typological interpretation. The typological prophecy is the prediction that a northern army (Gog) will invade Israel (America) and cleanse it until there is a solemn assembly and God removes the invaders with verese 28-32 being the complete fulfillment of the chapter--which happens AFTER the invastion. Thus, the historical interpretation is complete, but the typological understanding is yet to happen.

p51-mustang
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by p51-mustang »

The question I have is, why are the destructions mentioned in joel (pillars of smoke etc) linked with dreams, visions etc? Those things seem unrelated. Any thoughts?

p51-mustang
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by p51-mustang »

Here i am quoting from the verses up to 26 on chapter 2 of Joel. I dont understand what Pres Hinckley is talking about when he says that 28 through 32 have been fulfilled. Verse 28 talks about what happens after the events of 1 through 27 occur and as far as I can tell these events have not happened yet. 1 through 27 seem to be referencing the invasion of America by the Russians/chinese (assyrian army) that happens in the future. Can someone explain this to me?
1 Blow ye the atrumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy bmountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the cday of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of adarkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire adevoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of bEden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the anoise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the bstubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather ablackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The aearth shall quake before them; the heavens shall btremble: the csun and the moon shall be ddark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his avoice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the bday of the Lord is cgreat and very terrible; and who can dabide it?
12 ¶ Therefore also now, saith the Lord, aturn ye even to me with all your bheart, and with cfasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13 And arend your heart, and not your garments, band turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great ckindness, and drepenteth him of the evil.
14 aWho knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the Lord your God?
15 ¶ Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a asolemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her acloset.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, aweep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy bpeople, O Lord, and give not thine heritage to creproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
18 ¶ Then will the Lord be ajealous for his land, and bpity his people.
19 Yea, the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
20 But I will aremove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the beast sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his cstink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
21 ¶ Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the Lord will do great things.
22 Be not afraid, ye abeasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23 Be glad then, ye children of aZion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the brain, the former rain, and the clatter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the afats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will arestore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be aashamed.

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pjbrownie
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by pjbrownie »

The best I have been able to gather is that the dreams and visions he is referencing are the ones that happened right after the restoration, visions such as the Kirtland visions other visions that follow. Dreams and visions also seem to relate to new discoveries and inventions as well. This has happened. It's possible that a greater fulfillment occurs as Zion is redeemed and the visions of the Book of Mormon (the lost pages) will be shouted from the rooftops, that greater access to heaven will occur (which I whole-heartedly believe). Is this not also a fulfillment, a more complete fulfillment?

Another thought is the problem of chiasmus. Sometimes when the Old Testament tells a story, it fold back onto itself, and its not chronological, even if it says that it is. It's also possible that the dream for Joel was a sequence of visions that don't necessarily follow each other as was shown when they are made real.

We do know that one element of this chapter has not occurred in modernity (the typological prophecy), the description of the invasion that happens up and to the 28th verse. Almost the entire chapter is devoted to it.

buffalo_girl
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by buffalo_girl »

I can only share what I found in Joel as answer to my own prayers regarding the 'invasion' of America by a still unidentified military operation utilizing advanced technology.

From my perspective, we are being attacked in an 'undeclared' - very real - war. We are beginning 'to awaken to our awful situation', but are yet to perceive the utter hopelessness of our ability to defend ourselves with mortal weaponry.

(I'm leaving in every footnote reference which will make reading the text a little clumsy. It helps to follow those cross-references.)

I am convinced that the Seventh Seal has been opened.

Joel 2
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;


from verse 2-10 is a description of military force hitherto unknown on the earth. The power of this force is multifaceted. Its capabilities are inescapable, totally consuming, omnipresent, with power to cause earthquake, fire, atmospheric disruption, total surveillance, noisome, disruptive of any vestige of normalcy or privacy. Verse 5, footnote a. references to Revelation 9:9.

2 A day of adarkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire adevoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of bEden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the anoise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the bstubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather ablackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The aearth shall quake before them; the heavens shall btremble: the csun and the moon shall be ddark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Beginning in verse 11-14, the Lord declares His strength in opposition to the Satanic forces, tells us to realize our 'awful situation' and turn to Him in repentance, full commitment to covenants, with fasting and with broken hearts & contrite spirits. By so doing, Joel asks, "Who knoweth but that the Lord will accept our offering of repentance, broken hearts and contrite spirits?":

11 And the Lord shall utter his avoice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the bday of the Lord is cgreat and very terrible; and who can dabide it?
12 ¶ Therefore also now, saith the Lord, aturn ye even to me with all your bheart, and with cfasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13 And arend your heart, and not your garments, band turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great ckindness, and drepenteth him of the evil.
14 aWho knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the Lord your God?


From verses 15-17, the Church of Christ formally gathers in a Solemn Assembly as temple worthy families who acknowledge their helplessness in the face of this Satanic force, who ask that the Priests of the Temple present their petition to the Lord for deliverance from an enemy who mocks their God and their 'peculiar' ways.

15 ¶ Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a asolemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her acloset.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, aweep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy bpeople, O Lord, and give not thine heritage to creproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?


From verses 18-26, the Lord acknowledges His People as worthy of His intervention, expresses His love with compassion for their needs, fears, and losses, tells them how He will baffle the army to protect His people, restore the land, the crops, livestock and other losses. It appears to me that this period of destruction continues for several years. Despite the ongoing destruction, the Lord is in 'the midst' of His People who rejoice in His presence.

18 ¶ Then will the Lord be ajealous for his land, and bpity his people.
19 Yea, the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
20 But I will aremove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the beast sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his cstink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
21 ¶ Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the Lord will do great things.
22 Be not afraid, ye abeasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23 Be glad then, ye children of aZion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the brain, the former rain, and the clatter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the afats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will arestore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be aashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the amidst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.


I believe we are at the "Solemn Assembly" stage of Joel's prophecy - at least we ought to be. We are in desperate danger from those who knowingly serve Satan. Every horrific power to destroy has been unleashed upon all who are not a part of their agenda. As we become more fully awakened to what we are up against, Satan will increase his force and destruction.

Now, we come to those troublesome few verses...

In order for the Lord's People to have the confidence, peace, skills, insight, powers, and joy to live through this last manifestation of the War begun in Heaven brought into mortality, we are given visions, dreams, ability to perceive future events, and spiritual insight into what manifestations come from the Lord as opposed to those 'signs & wonders' used by Satan to deceive.

28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward*, that I will apour out my bspirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall cprophesy, your dold men shall edream dreams, your young men shall see fvisions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew awonders in the bheavens and in the earth, blood, and cfire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into ablood, before the great and the terrible bday of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall acall on the name of bthe Lord shall be cdelivered: for in dmount eZion and in fJerusalem shall be gdeliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the hremnant whom the Lord shall icall.


* afterward I believe this 'afterward' refers to 'after' being proved worthy to receive the listed gifts needed to strengthen the Lord's People during this final period before Christ's return.

Also read 2 Chronicles 20 for a scriptural 'type & shadow' of latter-day events described by Joel.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_chr/20

Wilford
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by Wilford »

I find it interesting that Moroni was specific in pointing out to Joseph that Joel 2 was about to be fulfilled. We need to know this stuff, and have been warned from the beginning of this dispensation.


JSH 1:41 "He also quoted the second chapter of Joel, from the twenty-eighth verse to the last. He also said that this was not yet fulfilled, but was soon to be..."

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Carlos
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by Carlos »

Fulfilled prophecy is understood by the spirit. Peter felt this prophecy was fulfilled for him, even as Pres Hinckley. How can both declare fulfillment of a singular event? Because the prophecy is symbolic and each likened the scripture unto their own situation and saw an opportunity to teach a congregation about the greatness of God's mercy and foreknowledge.

Prophecies/scriptures are open to interpretation for personal use and general use. A personal interpretation guided by the spirit should be just that...personal. Yet we desire to share our personal insights and as a result we clash with others who have other opinions. On the other hand, when a prophet declares fulfillment of prophecy, it is for general use, and we should seek to understand how it applies to us....not argue with his general declaration, as we do on a personal level.

I feel comfortable with Pres Hinckley's declaration. I see chapter 2 as a description of the great apostacy. It describes a spiritual war where the forces of evil rage upon and overcome the saints. It is common for the Lord to use physical symbols to teach spiritual realities. A couple of weeks ago I posted an interpretation of the graphic resurrection observed in Ezekiel 37. A clear example of how physical events can symbolize spiritual realities. In the case of Joel 2, I'm sure GBH and Peter were not thinking of russian and chinese armies invading America. My best guess is that they saw the kingdom of God overrun by the forces of apostasy and the Lord sending his servants to 'ressurect' them through a process of restoration.

Moroni declared to JS that the restoration process would shortly find fulfillment. And it did, as the priesthood and covenants brought new life into God's kingdom, Zion, the pure in heart, the humble. And great blessings have come to the world as a result!

The bone which sticks in the craw of many of you is a spiritual interpretation of physical symbols. Armies, desolation, swords, sun, moon, stars, blood, fire, pillars of smoke are difficult symbols to assimilate. You want these things to relate to apocalyptic desolation, not spiritual desolation. As a result, you contend with Pres Hinckley's and Peter's declarations of a fulfilled prophecy.

In my home (as in your homes), we are thankful that the Lord has allowed us to seek deliverance in spiritual Zion and in Jerusalem, for we are his remnant.

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shadow
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by shadow »

buffalo_girl wrote: I am convinced that the Seventh Seal has been opened.
+1

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pjbrownie
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by pjbrownie »

Carlos wrote:Fulfilled prophecy is understood by the spirit. Peter felt this prophecy was fulfilled for him, even as Pres Hinckley. How can both declare fulfillment of a singular event? Because the prophecy is symbolic and each likened the scripture unto their own situation and saw an opportunity to teach a congregation about the greatness of God's mercy and foreknowledge.

Prophecies/scriptures are open to interpretation for personal use and general use. A personal interpretation guided by the spirit should be just that...personal. Yet we desire to share our personal insights and as a result we clash with others who have other opinions. On the other hand, when a prophet declares fulfillment of prophecy, it is for general use, and we should seek to understand how it applies to us....not argue with his general declaration, as we do on a personal level.

I feel comfortable with Pres Hinckley's declaration. I see chapter 2 as a description of the great apostacy. It describes a spiritual war where the forces of evil rage upon and overcome the saints. It is common for the Lord to use physical symbols to teach spiritual realities. A couple of weeks ago I posted an interpretation of the graphic resurrection observed in Ezekiel 37. A clear example of how physical events can symbolize spiritual realities. In the case of Joel 2, I'm sure GBH and Peter were not thinking of russian and chinese armies invading America. My best guess is that they saw the kingdom of God overrun by the forces of apostasy and the Lord sending his servants to 'ressurect' them through a process of restoration.

Moroni declared to JS that the restoration process would shortly find fulfillment. And it did, as the priesthood and covenants brought new life into God's kingdom, Zion, the pure in heart, the humble. And great blessings have come to the world as a result!

The bone which sticks in the craw of many of you is a spiritual interpretation of physical symbols. Armies, desolation, swords, sun, moon, stars, blood, fire, pillars of smoke are difficult symbols to assimilate. You want these things to relate to apocalyptic desolation, not spiritual desolation. As a result, you contend with Pres Hinckley's and Peter's declarations of a fulfilled prophecy.

In my home (as in your homes), we are thankful that the Lord has allowed us to seek deliverance in spiritual Zion and in Jerusalem, for we are his remnant.
Yes, Carlos, Joel 2 has been fulfilled historically (the Great Apostasy and the restoration is the historical fulfillment). There is also a spiritual interpretation--which I have no argument with. I'm saying that there is a physical interpretation that is yet to come that has not been completely fulfilled. I feel like a Mormon missionary teaching to a good Christian. Yes, I do believe if what you are saying, but let me add to it. The language in Joel 2 with respect to the invading army is very similar to Isaiah in the Book of Mormon and 2 Nephi's interpretation. I think you understand the Book of Mormon passages here, you understand Joel 2.

There will be a physical deliverance of Zion. It will have political rule over America, but before this, it must be cleansedd of the wicked.

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Carlos
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by Carlos »

pjbrownie wrote: Yes, Carlos, Joel 2 has been fulfilled historically (the Great Apostasy and the restoration is the historical fulfillment). There is also a spiritual interpretation--which I have no argument with. I'm saying that there is a physical interpretation that is yet to come that has not been completely fulfilled. I feel like a Mormon missionary teaching to a good Christian. Yes, I do believe if what you are saying, but let me add to it. The language in Joel 2 with respect to the invading army is very similar to Isaiah in the Book of Mormon and 2 Nephi's interpretation. I think you understand the Book of Mormon passages here, you understand Joel 2.

There will be a physical deliverance of Zion. It will have political rule over America, but before this, it must be cleansedd of the wicked.

If you feel that the there will be a physical component to the wars, sun, moon, fire, etc, then I hope you are inspired to recognize that fulfillment when, and if, it comes. If you are touched by the explanation that 911 represented "wonders in the heavens and in the earth", that's good for you. Others have felt comfortable with the fires in Kuwait, eclipses, or other physical events as fulfillment of this prophecy. If it deepens their faith, fine.

My personal opinion is that Joel, Moroni, Elijah, Peter, and GBH were not considering the twin towers when contemplating the wonders of heaven and earth (fire, blood, pillars of smoke) as they relate to the restoration or the cleansing, for that matter.

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LukeAir2008
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by LukeAir2008 »

Yes I agree! :roll:
Last edited by LukeAir2008 on September 22nd, 2010, 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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pjbrownie
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by pjbrownie »

Carlos wrote:
pjbrownie wrote: Yes, Carlos, Joel 2 has been fulfilled historically (the Great Apostasy and the restoration is the historical fulfillment). There is also a spiritual interpretation--which I have no argument with. I'm saying that there is a physical interpretation that is yet to come that has not been completely fulfilled. I feel like a Mormon missionary teaching to a good Christian. Yes, I do believe if what you are saying, but let me add to it. The language in Joel 2 with respect to the invading army is very similar to Isaiah in the Book of Mormon and 2 Nephi's interpretation. I think you understand the Book of Mormon passages here, you understand Joel 2.

There will be a physical deliverance of Zion. It will have political rule over America, but before this, it must be cleansedd of the wicked.

If you feel that the there will be a physical component to the wars, sun, moon, fire, etc, then I hope you are inspired to recognize that fulfillment when, and if, it comes. If you are touched by the explanation that 911 represented "wonders in the heavens and in the earth", that's good for you. Others have felt comfortable with the fires in Kuwait, eclipses, or other physical events as fulfillment of this prophecy. If it deepens their faith, fine.

My personal opinion is that Joel, Moroni, Elijah, Peter, and GBH were not considering the twin towers when contemplating the wonders of heaven and earth (fire, blood, pillars of smoke) as they relate to the restoration or the cleansing, for that matter.
Well it wasn't my suggestion. I felt chills thinking about 9/11 being a fulfillment of pillars of smoke, but I certainly don't think that is the end all be all of the phrase. We only truly understand prophecy AFTER it has occurred. Signs in many ways are no there for us to tell the future, but for us to see what has already passed. I don't suppose we've seen all there is to see concerning pillars of smoke.

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kathyn
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by kathyn »

I don't suppose we've seen all there is to see concerning pillars of smoke.
pjbrownie, I have to concur. I've always thought pillars of smoke were very descriptive of the way a nuclear blast appears. (I know there have been the bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I feel there is more to come.)

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Mahonri
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by Mahonri »

shadow wrote:
buffalo_girl wrote: I am convinced that the Seventh Seal has been opened.
+1
oh crud. I agree with shadow? I better reevaluate my thinking on this :lol:

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shadow
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by shadow »

Mahonri wrote:
shadow wrote:
buffalo_girl wrote: I am convinced that the Seventh Seal has been opened.
+1
oh crud. I agree with shadow? I better reevaluate my thinking on this :lol:
Apparently we don't have any differences of opinion regarding other topics so I'm not surprised we're in agreement here :P

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Carlos
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by Carlos »

pjbrownie wrote:
Carlos wrote: If you feel that the there will be a physical component to the wars, sun, moon, fire, etc, then I hope you are inspired to recognize that fulfillment when, and if, it comes. If you are touched by the explanation that 911 represented "wonders in the heavens and in the earth", that's good for you. Others have felt comfortable with the fires in Kuwait, eclipses, or other physical events as fulfillment of this prophecy. If it deepens their faith, fine.

My personal opinion is that Joel, Moroni, Elijah, Peter, and GBH were not considering the twin towers when contemplating the wonders of heaven and earth (fire, blood, pillars of smoke) as they relate to the restoration or the cleansing, for that matter.
Well it wasn't my suggestion. I felt chills thinking about 9/11 being a fulfillment of pillars of smoke, but I certainly don't think that is the end all be all of the phrase. We only truly understand prophecy AFTER it has occurred. Signs in many ways are no there for us to tell the future, but for us to see what has already passed. I don't suppose we've seen all there is to see concerning pillars of smoke.
Interesting PJ, considering your opening statement.
I felt the Spirit strongly witness to me that verse 30 (wonders of heaven and earth, smoke, fire, pillars) has definitely been fulfilled through the destructions of 911
This is a problem I have with physical interpretations of prophecy. Every time I turn around, someone comes up with a new fantastic event which they say fulfills a prophecy! Where does it end PJ?

Sorry, I just couldn't resist the temptation to throw your own words back at you. :wink:

Hope the spirit eventually answers your curiosities on these matters.

Carlos

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pjbrownie
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by pjbrownie »

Carlos wrote:
pjbrownie wrote:
Carlos wrote: If you feel that the there will be a physical component to the wars, sun, moon, fire, etc, then I hope you are inspired to recognize that fulfillment when, and if, it comes. If you are touched by the explanation that 911 represented "wonders in the heavens and in the earth", that's good for you. Others have felt comfortable with the fires in Kuwait, eclipses, or other physical events as fulfillment of this prophecy. If it deepens their faith, fine.

My personal opinion is that Joel, Moroni, Elijah, Peter, and GBH were not considering the twin towers when contemplating the wonders of heaven and earth (fire, blood, pillars of smoke) as they relate to the restoration or the cleansing, for that matter.
Well it wasn't my suggestion. I felt chills thinking about 9/11 being a fulfillment of pillars of smoke, but I certainly don't think that is the end all be all of the phrase. We only truly understand prophecy AFTER it has occurred. Signs in many ways are no there for us to tell the future, but for us to see what has already passed. I don't suppose we've seen all there is to see concerning pillars of smoke.
Interesting PJ, considering your opening statement.
I felt the Spirit strongly witness to me that verse 30 (wonders of heaven and earth, smoke, fire, pillars) has definitely been fulfilled through the destructions of 911
This is a problem I have with physical interpretations of prophecy. Every time I turn around, someone comes up with a new fantastic event which they say fulfills a prophecy! Where does it end PJ?

Sorry, I just couldn't resist the temptation to throw your own words back at you. :wink:

Hope the spirit eventually answers your curiosities on these matters.

Carlos
Wow, being snarky--so unlike you. I felt the spirit witness for me that the pillars of smoke was PART of this prophecy, how's that. The Lord didn't qualify it for me as the end all be all. I put no periods on it. After further thought an contemplation, I stand with what I said later.

Every time you turn around, someone comes up with some fantastic new event. Yes, so much easier just to call it spiritual smoke and spiritual darkness--no room for error. Well, Carlos, eventually things have to happen to people, to the planet, and to stuff for Christ to come. Well we have to try to figure it out, because judgments will occur. We do our best to see it through a glass darkly. They key for me has been intense and comprehensive scriptural study of these things. It doesn't make it easier. Try telling me what the Abomination of Desolation is. I still have more questions than I have answers on this one.

Nan
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by Nan »

I believe that it is easy to misread prophecies about what is physically manifested what is spiritually manifested. So I go with the Prophet. I am pretty sure he is much more knowledgeable about whether or not a prophecy has been fulfilled. I believe that we can receive our own spiritual witness that the prophet was right in something being fulfilled. I think that is what PJ did. But I do think most people would rather argue about it then actually ask God if something has been fulfilled like the prophet has said.

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NoGreaterLove
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by NoGreaterLove »

But I do think most people would rather argue about it then actually ask God if something has been fulfilled like the prophet has said.
I agree Nan and a can assure you I have. But I am not going to ask everyone to believe me just because I have received my own answer from HF. I would rather try to reason with them using the scriptures and modern day revelation.

I respect their opinions on the matter, but do not agree.

Nan
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by Nan »

The point is we all should go to Heavenly Father for our answers. And then be okay with the answer we receive despite what others in our lives might feel about it.

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NoGreaterLove
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Re: Another Look at Joel 2

Post by NoGreaterLove »

And then be okay with the answer we receive despite what others in our lives might feel about it.
I think most of us are ok with it. But that does not mean we can not discuss our differences.

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