Multiple Mortal Probations Article

[Alaris]

Maybe ... lol

I appreciate you expertly, carefully, accidentally replacing words for the purposes of deception ... that really helps your case keep it up.

The purpose of all those harsh words is to force the matter to a conclusion and bring out the real issue. Behind every doctrine there are underlying principles that support it in the mind of the person teaching the doctrine. Most of the underlying doctrine that you use to support MMP has been squeezed out. And we have now got to the grand finale - one person saved per world and that is the person doing the saving.

I have to challenge things so no investigator or newly baptised person can have their faith destroyed. No person reading this thread can now be deceived - the truth is out there in plainness and my job is done.

Well pat yourself on your back along with the satisfying conclusion you reached with all your harsh language and misstatements including your above text about one Savior per world.

I fixed the text...wording seconds prior to your post - as you can see it is changed in your comment as well.

It was more broken?

I'm trying to find a polite way to say this. You may want to reread my earlier correction. If your misstatements aren't deliberate then you may want to spend more time reading before concluding.

One Son becomes a Father per creation of worlds under His own dominion. Be perfect as I am perfect He taught. Simple.

Also, Saved / Salvation has quite a different meaning than fulness / exaltation.

Way to save the investigator who is 12 pages deep in a thread on multiple mortal probations by such a stellar example of Christ like harshness, misstatements, and condemnation with the invitation that they can discover all truth by the Spirit. No wait that last part was me.

[inho]

alaris,
My earlier comment was not meant to be a threat. I just wanted to make sure that you understand that local priesthood leaders have the right to judge what is false doctrine and what is not. AI2.0 pointed out that a stake president has condemned MMP. Your response was to dismiss that because it was just some stake president. I just wanted to say that if your stake president or bishop took the same stance on MMP and asked you not to teach it (and I'm surprised if they wouldn't take that stance), there really would be serious consequences.

[janderich]

Of course this meat is not meant for the masses. What a daunting thought! Nevertheless, all the scriptures make SO much more sense when you realize you are not exempted from descending below all before inheriting all, and why should you / would you be? Should you be robbed of the opportunity to show the greatest love before wielding the greatest power? Of course not!

The doctrine of only one person is saved per earth and that is the person who is the person doing the saving... If you can believe that you have moved beyond what any person on this earth can offer you...

You have mixed up terms here until they are not clear. Many will be saved through the grace of God and his Son. Because of the resurrection all the righteous will be saved from spiritual and physical death. We will enter the celestial kingdom and receive our glory. Exaltation however is another matter. Indeed we prepare for it on this earth and we will be exalted to the extent that we have grown. But exaltation is a matter that extends well beyond this short mortality. It will continue into the next eternal round, and the next. Eternal progression, eternal exaltation.

Is it really surprising then that Christ has reached an exaltation well above our own? Is it surprising that his exaltation is unique among all the inhabitants of the earth? He was a God before the world was created! Perhaps now you can see how far he actually condescended, when he came to this fallen, mortal realm with all of us.

Now, I also want to let you know that we are not alone in this thinking. For example, Hugh Nibley discussing 2 Jehu (a gnostic text) says:

And this tells us that a person who is sent to take charge of a new world, as Adam was sent to take charge of this world, is called a Jehu, a form of the word “Jehovah”. And then he says, “As Jehu’s become fathers,” (once you have become established, then you become a father), “then you will appoint Jehus for new worlds who will in time become fathers and so on ad infinitum.” So you have the Jehu’s being promoted to fathers and then sending out other sons as Jehu’s and so forth. Each aeon has created for its own host ten thousand times ten thousand. ...Origen is always quoting from the early Church. He says, “This is not my opinion, this is what they used to teach,” what the elders used to teach, when he says, “There will be another world after this one. And in the same way there were other worlds before this one. We thus share a common nature with other worlds.” Or as Methodius, who was the last man to organize this material and bring it together, in the 18th volume of the Patrilogia, “Christ came down from his vast rule and kingdoms and other worlds to save one percent of those on this evil earth. And to enroll the human race in the heavenly register.” For this work is going on in a vast scale and it involves many other worlds. (see https://sites.lib.byu.edu/nibley/1974/0 ... criptures/)

This gospel is more glorious and vast and our progression more extended then this fallen world is willing to accept.

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)

[janderich]

alaris,
My earlier comment was not meant to be a threat. I just wanted to make sure that you understand that local priesthood leaders have the right to judge what is false doctrine and what is not. AI2.0 pointed out that a stake president has condemned MMP. Your response was to dismiss that because it was just some stake president. I just wanted to say that if your stake president or bishop took the same stance on MMP and asked you not to teach it (and I'm surprised if they wouldn't take that stance), there really would be serious consequences.

Perhaps alaris errs in his doctrine. What of it? I would simply say don't teach it as if it were an established doctrine of the LDS church. But I am tired to the core of members of this church trying to limit others and tell them what they must believe and what they must share. Discussion and discourse allow us to learn and grow. Joseph once said this of other religions, "I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things, but the creeds set up stakes, and say, "Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further,' which I cannot subscribe to" (HC 6:67). This might very well be said of many of the members of our church now days. Wherever I see it I likewise cannot subscribe to it.

Based on the criteria a few have set forth here Hugh Nibley should have been excommunicated.

[Spaced_Out]

Abraham came down as a spirit and now has gained his exaltation... How do you explain that - when the scriptures say saved it is the same as exaltation - when we repent of our sins and are forgiven and come out sinless we are then saved according to the promise of the ordinances or salvation. We have eternal increase never to be separated from our bodies and never to be separate from God or in other words eternal life..

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

Abraham 3:23-24
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

What do the scriptures and church teach concerning exaltation...... You cant just make up your own doctrine that contradicts all things we are taught in scripture and by the prophets...

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/exalt ... ang=eng#p5
The highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial kingdom.

In thy presence is fulness of joy, Ps. 16:11.
They are gods, even the sons of God—wherefore, all things are theirs, D&C 76:58–59.
The Saints shall receive their inheritance and be made equal with him, D&C 88:107.
These angels did not abide my law; therefore, they remain separately and singly, without exaltation, D&C 132:17.
Men and women must marry according to God’s law in order to gain exaltation, D&C 132:19–20.
Strait is the gate and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation, D&C 132:22–23.
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have entered into their exaltation, D&C 132:29, 37.
I seal upon you your exaltation, D&C 132:49.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

The first resurrection at the second coming all the righteous saints will be exalted and equal to Christ... This is not a future estate but a direct received salvation and exaltation at the coming where one is resurrected never to be separated from our bodies again and receive exaltation...

[Spaced_Out]

I have previously mentioned about Christ visiting all the spirits in the spirit world after his crucifixion Adam to all the righteous dead were there i.e. they had no bodies but were waiting for their redemption and long separation of their bodies from their spirits. How is that if Adam and Abraham already had immortal bodies prior to coming to earth..... Again deceit of a doctrine to destroy the church and the works of God and do the work of Satan.

Exaltation is also defined as a fullness of joy..... D&C138

12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;
13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.
14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.
16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.
18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;
19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

[Spaced_Out]

You guys teach we have to be sacrificed as Jesus was sacrificed in order to gain exaltation. We do not need to be a savour of a world and live a perfect life to gain exaltation as Christ has suffer for our sins. What we need to do is "offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God" we suffer in this world and choose good over evil that is offering sacrifice in the similitude or example of Jesus. alairs teaches different level of progression and the final one being law of concentration. There are many saints that have given up everything they own for the Gospel. Like in early church in Australia or South Africa people would sell their houses cars all they own take a bus trip then a train ride and boat to the nearest country that had a temple - get their endowments done and return with no job no nothing and have to rebuild their entire lives.

It is a sacrifice in the similitude of the only begotten, and suffering tribulation in the redeemers name - that is sufficient to demonstrate ability to live the law of concentration and enter into a fullness of joy and gain exaltation. The promises is certain God has redeemed us - the ordinances of salvation give the same promise - anyone teaching otherwise is anti-Christ and ad deceiver. Again note all the righteous dead from Adam to Jesus receive there redemption - resurrection never to be separated from their bodies again.... This is the teaching of the LDS church any other doctrine is fake and a lie...

D&C138
12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;
13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.
14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.
16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.
18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;
19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

[Spaced_Out]

Now, I also want to let you know that we are not alone in this thinking. For example, Hugh Nibley discussing 2 Jehu (a gnostic text) says:

And this tells us that a person who is sent to take charge of a new world, as Adam was sent to take charge of this world, is called a Jehu, a form of the word “Jehovah”. And then he says, “As Jehu’s become fathers,” (once you have become established, then you become a father), “then you will appoint Jehus for new worlds who will in time become fathers and so on ad infinitum.” So you have the Jehu’s being promoted to fathers and then sending out other sons as Jehu’s and so forth. Each aeon has created for its own host ten thousand times ten thousand. ...Origen is always quoting from the early Church. He says, “This is not my opinion, this is what they used to teach,” what the elders used to teach, when he says, “There will be another world after this one. And in the same way there were other worlds before this one. We thus share a common nature with other worlds.” Or as Methodius, who was the last man to organize this material and bring it together, in the 18th volume of the Patrilogia, “Christ came down from his vast rule and kingdoms and other worlds to save one percent of those on this evil earth. And to enroll the human race in the heavenly register.” For this work is going on in a vast scale and it involves many other worlds. (see https://sites.lib.byu.edu/nibley/1974/0 ... criptures/)

This gospel is more glorious and vast and our progression more extended then this fallen world is willing to accept.

I have no issue with that quote it does not teach MMP but that in the spirit world people are called and assigned for work to be done on this earth, and the same pattern is repeated. He also sates Christ came down to save 1% - you guys teach no one is saved only Christ saved himself - the rest of us all have to go and repeat mortality and do the same works Christ did - you are not in line with the quotes you give.......
That quote is also not official church doctrine.

[Spaced_Out]

The promise of the ordinances of salvation are in full force when out of this world - and we go strait to exaltation....) passing by the angles and gods to our exaltation...

Exaltation is also defined as a fullness of joy..... D&C138
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

[Silver]

Spaced_Out, thanks for all the posts. Sooner or later alarisherem will understand the depth of his deception.

[Alaris]

The promise of the ordinances of salvation are in full force when out of this world - and we go strait to exaltation....) passing by the angles and gods to our exaltation...

Exaltation is also defined as a fullness of joy..... D&C138
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

It feels odd having such a humorous interaction over such a deep, beautiful doctrine but yes keep it up Spaced_Out. I especially like the posts with fewer misstatements and more scriptures that you post that support mmp as shown above. I'll bold the parts you are unable to explain while rejecting mmp.

How do you explain it not in this resurrection then the next?

Do we inherit thrones dominions principalities etc all at once?

All of this is stated as shall, a nice future tense word that in no way excludes mmp.

[mirkwood]

Wow...and I thought Denver was good at wresting scripture...

[AI2.0]

My responses in blue;

I'm pretty sure they are relating D&C 129 to the shaking of hands. And if they didn't shake hands, how did they know who it really was? Without going into it too much online.

btw, I had this question in the past and heard of a possible solution which made me think, eh, there's probably an explanation to it so haven't worried too much about it.

Funny to see the selective literal interpretation. It says never but that's not a real handshake.

Alaris, I'm not sure what you mean here. What do you mean by "It says never but that's not a real handshake." Thanks.

Apologies HappyCamper8. It's been a super busy week. I've done my best to stay engaged in this thread, but that has meant more misspelled words than usual and shorter posts. Here is what I mean.

Naysayer: "The resurrection is the spirit and the body reuniting never to be divided! It's literal! It means forever ever foreverness!They say that because that is what we preach. From the Bible dictionary: "The resurrection consists in the uniting of the spirit body with the body of flesh and bones, never to be divided." I don't know why you think that's to be interpreted literally. As long as I've been a member of this church, that is how it has been presented. It's doctrine. Sure Adam was forever never to die until he did,Per the Book of Mormon, Lehi's teachings, Adam would have lived forever if he'd remained in the garden. He did become subject to death when he partook of the fruit and his days were prolonged in mortality, so he would have time to repent before he died.. There's nothing to misunderstand with this. It's also doctrine. and sure endless torment was a deliberate word play to hide the meat from the milk drinkers, but this time .. this time it says never! You're not reading it right. I'll post it 10 more times. etc."I'm not sure what you are getting at with that. It is the Lord who is explaining 'endless torment'. It IS endless and will be endless for those who are in hell and will not repent. The Lord is not lying to you.

Naysayer: *read this in Pat Gray's genius voice* "Well Lucifer carried an apple sure, and Peter, James, and John shook hands sure ... but that's just figurative!"It is figurative because of LDS doctrine, which is plain and clear. Lucifer was denied a body. That means per LDS doctrine he doesn't have a body. Do I have to find an official statement for this, because I'm certain that any member of the church who attend and reads scripture will tell you that Lucifer was cast out, along with 1/3 of the hosts of Heaven and they lost their chance for a body. Therefore, when the actor who portrays Lucifer picks the fruit and hands it to Eve, it's understood that he still does not have a physical body. Because that's LDS doctrine. And the same goes for Peter, James and John. When they shake hands, we are to understand that they don't have physical bodies, because they haven't been born yet. They shake hands because it's actors portraying something to teach us. They are human and so they have physical bodies, but we are supposed to think of this as in the time of Adam and Eve, when there were no other children of Heavenly Father in physical form--since they hadn't been born yet. That's LDS doctrine.

Sorry that felt like mocking. It's been a long week and I try to draw the line at sarcasm. Like I said, I've still a ways to go myself on my progression.

Anyway, the point I'm making is that of course there are symbols and of course there are things that are literal. But trying to judge which is which and throwing up a hard wall is about the dumbest thing you can do to yourself. Humbly submit to the Father as a child submits to a parent. I've referred to Mosiah 3:19 enough in this thread, I should actually quote it here. Perhaps this will reinforce the amazing lesson I've learned witnessing the... *thinking of a civil word*... base.. attacks in this thread:If you are going to try to claim that Lucifer and Peter, James and John have physical bodies, you are going to be told you are wrong, because of what LDS doctrine teaches. So, you say the LDS church is wrong to teach this, but I say I believe the church and will believe what they teach, not what you teach.

Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Submissive, meek, humble, patient (I'm actually doing a little better here all sarcasm aside), full of love (need some improvement here). Still this formula is exactly what is needed to counter the effects of Alma 12. I mean, is there any level of self awareness here. *Pat Gray voice again* Well gee ... I know Jesus says love thy neighbor but Alaris is a sick, lying troll whose membership should be revoked. I mean maybe if it were me truly lost I'd throw in some love there....

Well, this is a great lesson for me as well. I love you guys. Truly. Pray. Just ... pray. Ask for guidance - be nonspecific - and listen. The Lord loves you all and wants you all to succeed on the path to salvation, whether that's one body or many.

I don't know how to be more clear on this. I'm LDS, I believe the LDS church teaches true doctrine. I believe Lucifer did not have a body, because the church says he doesn't:

Elder Bednar: "The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. "

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2010/06/thin ... e?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/04/the- ... n?lang=eng

Since the devil and his premortal angels have no physical body of flesh and bones, they often seek to possess the bodies of mortal beings. There are many such instances recorded in scripture (Matt. 9:32; 12:22; Mark 1:24; 5:7; Luke 8:30; Acts 19:15; see also Mosiah 3:6).

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/devil

I think most people realize that since Adam and Eve are in the Garden, and have not had children yet, Peter James and John are in spirit form. Spirit form does consist of refined matter, though.

If you want to call me a 'naysayer' or accuse me of rejecting 'more', I disagree. I'm reiterating LDS doctrine and I'm rejecting what you are sharing which is not in harmony with revealed LDS doctrine and scripture.

[Spaced_Out]

If you want to call me a 'naysayer' or accuse me of rejecting 'more', I disagree. I'm reiterating LDS doctrine and I'm rejecting what you are sharing which is not in harmony with revealed LDS doctrine and scripture.[/color]

Just came back from church guess what the SS lesson was on the preexistence and the first and second estate. Satan never kept the first estate as a spirit in the preexistence and was cast out never to get a body. It is very clear in the scriptures we only have one first estate and one second estate.
In the temple the interaction between Adam and Peter James and John - Adam is figurative for all mankind - those actual events did not take place - it is even mentioned as such - theses guys teach any false doctrine make multiple straw man augments in an attempt to prove there dark teachings...
They teach Satan has PH and power therefore he must of had a body - not true Jesus as a Spirit had PH and power and created the earth including the body of Adam fashioned after his spiritual body. Making false links to prove false doctrine.

Abraham 3:6 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.-
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

Moses 4:3
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

[Spaced_Out]

The promise of the ordinances of salvation are in full force when out of this world - and we go strait to exaltation....) passing by the angles and gods to our exaltation...

Exaltation is also defined as a fullness of joy..... D&C138
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

It feels odd having such a humorous interaction over such a deep, beautiful doctrine but yes keep it up Spaced_Out. I especially like the posts with fewer misstatements and more scriptures that you post that support mmp as shown above. I'll bold the parts you are unable to explain while rejecting mmp.

How do you explain it not in this resurrection then the next? You should be embarrassed posting this, The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and if one does not receive that then the second resurrection of the wicked at the end of the millennium and they are not able to progress and enter into the celestial -- it is very simple ---- there is only one resurrection for each individual.

Do we inherit thrones dominions principalities etc all at once? Simple if we are faithful we inherit all the father has and become one with him and the son- Oath and covenant of the PH. Resurrected to celestial clothed as Jesus is clothed at his second coming - the first resurrection, You teach multiple levels of resurrection - sad to say those the get the second resurrection are those that are cast out...

All of this is stated as shall, a nice future tense word that in no way excludes mmp. A single future world - not multiple...... not MMP. raised and exalted at the Resurrection..

Comment in red and blue.

For someone who claims to know the mysteries of the kingdom - you should be very embarrassed posting those comments showing lack of even very elementary aspects of the gospel. God greatests gift to man is ........ Eternal life -- you definition of saved and exalted is false and deceptive...

Doctrine and Covenants 14:7
7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.


The righteous are raised through the resurrection and gain eternal life
Mosiah 15:23-25
23 They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death.

What are the requirements for eternal life - see if you can figure it out without a detailed explanation..
1 John 5:13
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Keep the commandments in this life we gain eternal life - live with God forever and ever....
Alma 7:16
16 And whosoever doeth this, and keepeth the commandments of God from thenceforth, the same will remember that I say unto him, yea, he will remember that I have said unto him, he shall have eternal life, according to the testimony of the Holy Spirit, which testifieth in me.

2 Nephi 31:20
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a clove of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.


16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the ommandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Eternal life is gained this life - the greatest of all gifts - you teaching on MMP be dammed to hell - it is antiChrist and a lie..
Doctrine and Covenants 20:26-27
26 Not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, in the flesh, but all those from the beginning, even as many as were before he came, who believed in the words of the holy prophets, who spake as they were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, who truly testified of him in all things, should have eternal life,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Mosiah 26:20
20 Thou art my servant; and I covenant with thee that thou shalt have aeternal life; and thou shalt serve me and go forth in my name, and shalt gather together my sheep.


John 3:15
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Eternal life is linked to the first resurrection of the just

Mosiah 18:9
9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

[Alaris]

My responses in blue;

Funny to see the selective literal interpretation. It says never but that's not a real handshake.

Alaris, I'm not sure what you mean here. What do you mean by "It says never but that's not a real handshake." Thanks.

Apologies HappyCamper8. It's been a super busy week. I've done my best to stay engaged in this thread, but that has meant more misspelled words than usual and shorter posts. Here is what I mean.

Naysayer: "The resurrection is the spirit and the body reuniting never to be divided! It's literal! It means forever ever foreverness!They say that because that is what we preach. From the Bible dictionary: "The resurrection consists in the uniting of the spirit body with the body of flesh and bones, never to be divided." I don't know why you think that's to be interpreted literally. As long as I've been a member of this church, that is how it has been presented. It's doctrine. Sure Adam was forever never to die until he did,Per the Book of Mormon, Lehi's teachings, Adam would have lived forever if he'd remained in the garden. He did become subject to death when he partook of the fruit and his days were prolonged in mortality, so he would have time to repent before he died.. There's nothing to misunderstand with this. It's also doctrine. and sure endless torment was a deliberate word play to hide the meat from the milk drinkers, but this time .. this time it says never! You're not reading it right. I'll post it 10 more times. etc."I'm not sure what you are getting at with that. It is the Lord who is explaining 'endless torment'. It IS endless and will be endless for those who are in hell and will not repent. The Lord is not lying to you.

Naysayer: *read this in Pat Gray's genius voice* "Well Lucifer carried an apple sure, and Peter, James, and John shook hands sure ... but that's just figurative!"It is figurative because of LDS doctrine, which is plain and clear. Lucifer was denied a body. That means per LDS doctrine he doesn't have a body. Do I have to find an official statement for this, because I'm certain that any member of the church who attend and reads scripture will tell you that Lucifer was cast out, along with 1/3 of the hosts of Heaven and they lost their chance for a body. Therefore, when the actor who portrays Lucifer picks the fruit and hands it to Eve, it's understood that he still does not have a physical body. Because that's LDS doctrine. And the same goes for Peter, James and John. When they shake hands, we are to understand that they don't have physical bodies, because they haven't been born yet. They shake hands because it's actors portraying something to teach us. They are human and so they have physical bodies, but we are supposed to think of this as in the time of Adam and Eve, when there were no other children of Heavenly Father in physical form--since they hadn't been born yet. That's LDS doctrine.

Sorry that felt like mocking. It's been a long week and I try to draw the line at sarcasm. Like I said, I've still a ways to go myself on my progression.

Anyway, the point I'm making is that of course there are symbols and of course there are things that are literal. But trying to judge which is which and throwing up a hard wall is about the dumbest thing you can do to yourself. Humbly submit to the Father as a child submits to a parent. I've referred to Mosiah 3:19 enough in this thread, I should actually quote it here. Perhaps this will reinforce the amazing lesson I've learned witnessing the... *thinking of a civil word*... base.. attacks in this thread:If you are going to try to claim that Lucifer and Peter, James and John have physical bodies, you are going to be told you are wrong, because of what LDS doctrine teaches. So, you say the LDS church is wrong to teach this, but I say I believe the church and will believe what they teach, not what you teach.

Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Submissive, meek, humble, patient (I'm actually doing a little better here all sarcasm aside), full of love (need some improvement here). Still this formula is exactly what is needed to counter the effects of Alma 12. I mean, is there any level of self awareness here. *Pat Gray voice again* Well gee ... I know Jesus says love thy neighbor but Alaris is a sick, lying troll whose membership should be revoked. I mean maybe if it were me truly lost I'd throw in some love there....

Well, this is a great lesson for me as well. I love you guys. Truly. Pray. Just ... pray. Ask for guidance - be nonspecific - and listen. The Lord loves you all and wants you all to succeed on the path to salvation, whether that's one body or many.

I don't know how to be more clear on this. I'm LDS, I believe the LDS church teaches true doctrine. I believe Lucifer did not have a body, because the church says he doesn't:

Elder Bednar: "The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. "

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2010/06/thin ... e?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/04/the- ... n?lang=eng

Since the devil and his premortal angels have no physical body of flesh and bones, they often seek to possess the bodies of mortal beings. There are many such instances recorded in scripture (Matt. 9:32; 12:22; Mark 1:24; 5:7; Luke 8:30; Acts 19:15; see also Mosiah 3:6).

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/devil

I think most people realize that since Adam and Eve are in the Garden, and have not had children yet, Peter James and John are in spirit form. Spirit form does consist of refined matter, though.

If you want to call me a 'naysayer' or accuse me of rejecting 'more', I disagree. I'm reiterating LDS doctrine and I'm rejecting what you are sharing which is not in harmony with revealed LDS doctrine and scripture.

There is evidence that the devil and Lucifer are two separate beings. There is a great thread on LDSFF about the evidence. Of course this idea is a lot easier to grasp with mmp and iterations of eternal rounds... Well not even that necessarily... I don't want to derail my own thread.

[Spaced_Out]

There is evidence that the devil and Lucifer are two separate beings. There is a great thread on LDSFF about the evidence. Of course this idea is a lot easier to grasp with mmp and iterations of eternal rounds... Well not even that necessarily... I don't want to derail my own thread.

One pretence leads to another Many Multiple Pretences (MMP)..

One and the same.................. Depth of deception has no bounds.........

D&C 76:26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—

Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old aserpent, which is the bDevil, and Satan, and cbound him a thousand years,

JST, Revelation 12:8
8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth; and his angels were cast out with him.

[Spaced_Out]

Lucifer is only used twice in scripture. Both refer to his previous state as "son of the morning" hence his authority and PH, both mention how he fell and was cast out and became the devil and Satan one and the same....

Isa12 & 3 Nephi 24 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! I
D&C 76:26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

[Spaced_Out]

Wow...and I thought Denver was good at wresting scripture...

One lie leads to another he is digging himself deeper and deeper into a bottomless pit, getting more desperate and latching onto more bizarre things.

I am still giving him a little chance to come to his senses - will see how he responds to my last few posts then I will go full nuclear and no more nice guy..

[Silver]

Wow...and I thought Denver was good at wresting scripture...

One lie leads to another he is digging himself deeper and deeper into a bottomless pit, getting more desperate and latching onto more bizarre things.

I am still giving him a little chance to come to his senses - will see how he responds to my last few posts then I will go full nuclear and no more nice guy..

alarisherem is going to kick against the pricks no matter what we write here. He can control his choices (or maybe he's already bound by the chains of Satan too tightly to help himself), but he can't control the consequences of his choices.

I still find it quite disgusting that alarisherem insists that he's right simply because we opposed him and his heresy. Can you imagine any situation where Father Lehi would have intended his great words in 2 Nephi 2:11 to be used that way? Airheaded, at best.

alarisherem: I declare unto you that snakes make honey not honey bees.
us: no, actually, that's incorrect.
alarisherem: you opposed me so that proves snakes make honey.

Fortunately, we have had the Gift of the Holy Ghost among us for many years. We know the truth of the Plan of Salvation. So when we hear a heretical comment we know immediately it is untrue. The 3rd member of the Godhead is a true companion and comfort.

So what's next for alarisherem? Denver Snuffer, Part 2?

[Alaris]

There is evidence that the devil and Lucifer are two separate beings. There is a great thread on LDSFF about the evidence. Of course this idea is a lot easier to grasp with mmp and iterations of eternal rounds... Well not even that necessarily... I don't want to derail my own thread.

One pretence leads to another Many Multiple Pretences (MMP)..

One and the same.................. Depth of deception has no bounds.........

D&C 76:26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—

Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old aserpent, which is the bDevil, and Satan, and cbound him a thousand years,

JST, Revelation 12:8
8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth; and his angels were cast out with him.

You want to discuss Lucifer / Devil in the Lucifer thread, I'd be happy to. I like how you bold and color these scriptures over and over again and the selfsame scriptures. These scriptures / ideas are all discussed in that thread.

Devil = Satan. Great. We agree. So do the scriptures.

Lucifer may be a different person. Verse 28 in D&C 76 reads to me like it could be referring to a new person; it would have made a lot more sense to tie those two names together, like, "And then we saw Lucifer who became the Devil" - anyway. I'm not sold on the idea they are separate, but feel free to chime in on and we can see where the spirit of opposition takes you next. This might actually be a great way to uncover truth!

viewtopic.php?p=760280

[Alaris]

Wow...and I thought Denver was good at wresting scripture...

One lie leads to another he is digging himself deeper and deeper into a bottomless pit, getting more desperate and latching onto more bizarre things.

I am still giving him a little chance to come to his senses - will see how he responds to my last few posts then I will go full nuclear and no more nice guy..

alarisherem is going to kick against the pricks no matter what we write here. He can control his choices (or maybe he's already bound by the chains of Satan too tightly to help himself), but he can't control the consequences of his choices.

I still find it quite disgusting that alarisherem insists that he's right simply because we opposed him and his heresy. Can you imagine any situation where Father Lehi would have intended his great words in 2 Nephi 2:11 to be used that way? Airheaded, at best.

alarisherem: I believe in MMP and here's why.
us: Heresy! Lies! Condemnation! Shame! Name calling! Actual lies to confuse and mock!
alarisherem: I still believe in MMP and here's why
us: Scriptures with bold and underlined text and sometimes more condemnation, lies, mockery etc.
alarisherem: Wow, you actually aren't in control of youserlves any more are you? You know you quoted some great scriptures that show MMP. Here's how and why I believe MMP.
us: Go see your Bishop! We'll insult you, condemn you, mock you, lie about what you just said that any reader can scroll up and see (lol)
alarisherem: Wow Alma 12:9-10 shows what happens when you say "We have enough" - we are actually watching this unfold.
us: Go see your Bishop! We'll insult you, condemn you, mock you, lie about what you just said that any reader can scroll up and see (lol) We underline the same scriptures, this time with more exclamation marks!
etc.

Fortunately, we have had the Gift of the Holy Ghost among us for many years. We know the truth of the Plan of Salvation. So when we hear a heretical comment we know immediately it is untrue. The 3rd member of the Godhead is a true companion and comfort.

So what's next for alarisherem? Denver Snuffer, Part 2?

Hahaha you're endless entertainment Silver. I truly appreciate it. Donald Trump would give you a high five for sticking to your condescending nick name! Nice work.

Also, I truly appreciate the Denver Snuffer "compliment." I mean on one hand you .. hold on, let me look up the appropriate term ... ridicule... my beliefs and attempt to marginalize me as the lone heretic, and then on the other you say they're at least legitimate enough to get a snuffer-like following. Except - oops - Alaris isn't the only one who believes in MMP! Lizzy60 chimed in and we used good old ad hominem to marginalize her. Joseph Smith and Heber C Kimball and Brigham Young and Eliza R Snow - all of them believed it and, well I do seem to remember some comments about ignoring these "long dead" people hahaha! Let's see how you are doing with these rules you are following:

Saul Alinksy's Rules For Radicals (The book is dedicated to Lucifer)
Always remember the first rule of power tactics: Power is not only what you have but what the enemy thinks you have.
The second rule is: Never go outside the experience of your people.
…The third rule is: Wherever possible go outside the experience of the enemy. Here you want to cause confusion, fear, and retreat.
…the fourth rule is: Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules.
…the fourth rule carries within it the fifth rule: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.
…the sixth rule is: A good tactic is one that your people enjoy.
…the seventh rule is: A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.
…the eighth rule: Keep the pressure on.
…the ninth rule: The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.
The tenth rule: The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition.
…The eleventh rule is: If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside.
…The twelfth rule: The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative.
…The thirteenth rule: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it

Hey hey not bad! I intended to bold only the rules that apply, but it looks like you're doing very well on nearly all of them. Nice work! Twelve doesn't really apply since you've only succeeded in showing that you have a lot more in common with Saul Alinksy than you do the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I put one of the rules in red that may apply, however. I'm sure most people have gotten the point that you and your high fivers are all suffering from Alma 12:10

Alma 12:10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

PS I fixed your mock conversation between "us" and alarisherem in the quoted text in blue-green. Your nickname is actually quite funny. I wonder how self aware you are of these chains by which you are bound Silver. Do you know and just can't help it? Or do you read that list from Rules for Radicals and have no idea that you are trapped by the same spirit by which Saul Alinsky was trapped?

MMP is real.

2 Kings 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

[Silver]

Wow...and I thought Denver was good at wresting scripture...

One lie leads to another he is digging himself deeper and deeper into a bottomless pit, getting more desperate and latching onto more bizarre things.

I am still giving him a little chance to come to his senses - will see how he responds to my last few posts then I will go full nuclear and no more nice guy..

alarisherem is going to kick against the pricks no matter what we write here. He can control his choices (or maybe he's already bound by the chains of Satan too tightly to help himself), but he can't control the consequences of his choices.

I still find it quite disgusting that alarisherem insists that he's right simply because we opposed him and his heresy. Can you imagine any situation where Father Lehi would have intended his great words in 2 Nephi 2:11 to be used that way? Airheaded, at best.

alarisherem: I declare unto you that snakes make honey not honey bees.
us: no, actually, that's incorrect.
alarisherem: you opposed me so that proves snakes make honey.

Fortunately, we have had the Gift of the Holy Ghost among us for many years. We know the truth of the Plan of Salvation. So when we hear a heretical comment we know immediately it is untrue. The 3rd member of the Godhead is a true companion and comfort.

So what's next for alarisherem? Denver Snuffer, Part 2?

Hahaha you're endless entertainment Silver. I truly appreciate it. Donald Trump would give you a high five for sticking to your condescending nick name! Nice work.

Also, I truly appreciate the Denver Snuffer compliment. I mean on one hand you .. hold on, let me look up the appropriate term ... ridicule my beliefs and then on the other you say they're at least legitimate enough to get a snuffer like following. Except - oops - Alaris isn't the only one who believes in MMP! Lizzy60 chimed in and we used good old ad hominem to marginalize her. Let's see how you are doing with these rules you are following:

Saul Alinksy's Rules For Radicals (The book is dedicated to Lucifer)
Always remember the first rule of power tactics: Power is not only what you have but what the enemy thinks you have.
The second rule is: Never go outside the experience of your people.
…The third rule is: Wherever possible go outside the experience of the enemy. Here you want to cause confusion, fear, and retreat.
…the fourth rule is: Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules.
…the fourth rule carries within it the fifth rule: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.
…the sixth rule is: A good tactic is one that your people enjoy.
…the seventh rule is: A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.
…the eighth rule: Keep the pressure on.
…the ninth rule: The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.
The tenth rule: The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition.
…The eleventh rule is: If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside.
…The twelfth rule: The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative.
…The thirteenth rule: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it

Hey hey not bad! I intended to bold only the rules that apply, but it looks like you're doing very well on nearly all of them. Nice work! Twelve doesn't really apply since you've only succeeded in showing that you have a lot more in common with Saul Alinksy than you do the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I put one of the rules in red that may apply, however. I'm sure most people have gotten the point that you and your high fivers are all suffering from Alma 12:10

Alma 12:10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

My, what a tender little flower alarisherem has turned out to be. Don't stomp on his his fantasy, his pretended special doctrine, or he'll be hurt. When will he learn that his attempts at guilt trips won't work? Maybe never.

lizzy60...bwahahaha. Yes, a definite authority on swords that burn and what not.

For those keeping score, alarisherem digs himself ever deeper into heresy. It's going to take a serious talking with his bishop to save himself.

[Alaris]

One lie leads to another he is digging himself deeper and deeper into a bottomless pit, getting more desperate and latching onto more bizarre things.

I am still giving him a little chance to come to his senses - will see how he responds to my last few posts then I will go full nuclear and no more nice guy..

alarisherem is going to kick against the pricks no matter what we write here. He can control his choices (or maybe he's already bound by the chains of Satan too tightly to help himself), but he can't control the consequences of his choices.

I still find it quite disgusting that alarisherem insists that he's right simply because we opposed him and his heresy. Can you imagine any situation where Father Lehi would have intended his great words in 2 Nephi 2:11 to be used that way? Airheaded, at best.

alarisherem: I declare unto you that snakes make honey not honey bees.
us: no, actually, that's incorrect.
alarisherem: you opposed me so that proves snakes make honey.

Fortunately, we have had the Gift of the Holy Ghost among us for many years. We know the truth of the Plan of Salvation. So when we hear a heretical comment we know immediately it is untrue. The 3rd member of the Godhead is a true companion and comfort.

So what's next for alarisherem? Denver Snuffer, Part 2?

Hahaha you're endless entertainment Silver. I truly appreciate it. Donald Trump would give you a high five for sticking to your condescending nick name! Nice work.

Also, I truly appreciate the Denver Snuffer compliment. I mean on one hand you .. hold on, let me look up the appropriate term ... ridicule my beliefs and then on the other you say they're at least legitimate enough to get a snuffer like following. Except - oops - Alaris isn't the only one who believes in MMP! Lizzy60 chimed in and we used good old ad hominem to marginalize her. Let's see how you are doing with these rules you are following:

Saul Alinksy's Rules For Radicals (The book is dedicated to Lucifer)
Always remember the first rule of power tactics: Power is not only what you have but what the enemy thinks you have.
The second rule is: Never go outside the experience of your people.
…The third rule is: Wherever possible go outside the experience of the enemy. Here you want to cause confusion, fear, and retreat.
…the fourth rule is: Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules.
…the fourth rule carries within it the fifth rule: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.
…the sixth rule is: A good tactic is one that your people enjoy.
…the seventh rule is: A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.
…the eighth rule: Keep the pressure on.
…the ninth rule: The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.
The tenth rule: The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition.
…The eleventh rule is: If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside.
…The twelfth rule: The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative.
…The thirteenth rule: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it

Hey hey not bad! I intended to bold only the rules that apply, but it looks like you're doing very well on nearly all of them. Nice work! Twelve doesn't really apply since you've only succeeded in showing that you have a lot more in common with Saul Alinksy than you do the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I put one of the rules in red that may apply, however. I'm sure most people have gotten the point that you and your high fivers are all suffering from Alma 12:10

Alma 12:10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

My, what a tender little flower alarisherem has turned out to be. Don't stomp on his his fantasy, his pretended special doctrine, or he'll be hurt. When will he learn that his attempts at guilt trips won't work? Maybe never.

lizzy60...bwahahaha. Yes, a definite authority on swords that burn and what not.

For those keeping score, alarisherem digs himself ever deeper into heresy. It's going to take a serious talking with his bishop to save himself.

I added a bit to my last post you may want to check out. Bishops don't save Silver. I don't know if you ..knew that .. or not.

Anyway - I love how you use the word "fantasy" and are the one pretending that Alaris is hurt - and then working yourself up into a frenetic glee over my pretend hurt! So Christlike of you! I called this out pages ago - the naysayer high fivers will keep up the insults and "keep the pressure on" as Saul Alinksy calls it until Alaris loses his cool and then we'll dance and rant and take glee in our victory .... we won! Well, if he never gives in, we'll at least pretend to win if he ever comes close to stooping to this level.

I know tone is hard to convey, but I actually find you quite entertaining Silver - always have. You couldn't ask for a better illustration of Alma 12:10-11.

I know you recognize this. You know you are stuck in this behavior, but just remember - the moment you pray and confess this behavior to the Lord, immediately will the atonement begin to work in your soul. Rise above brother!

Alma 34:31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.

Salvation does not equal Exaltation - You are welcome Spaced_Out!

[Silver]

alarisherem is going to kick against the pricks no matter what we write here. He can control his choices (or maybe he's already bound by the chains of Satan too tightly to help himself), but he can't control the consequences of his choices.

I still find it quite disgusting that alarisherem insists that he's right simply because we opposed him and his heresy. Can you imagine any situation where Father Lehi would have intended his great words in 2 Nephi 2:11 to be used that way? Airheaded, at best.

alarisherem: I declare unto you that snakes make honey not honey bees.
us: no, actually, that's incorrect.
alarisherem: you opposed me so that proves snakes make honey.

Fortunately, we have had the Gift of the Holy Ghost among us for many years. We know the truth of the Plan of Salvation. So when we hear a heretical comment we know immediately it is untrue. The 3rd member of the Godhead is a true companion and comfort.

So what's next for alarisherem? Denver Snuffer, Part 2?

Hahaha you're endless entertainment Silver. I truly appreciate it. Donald Trump would give you a high five for sticking to your condescending nick name! Nice work.

Also, I truly appreciate the Denver Snuffer compliment. I mean on one hand you .. hold on, let me look up the appropriate term ... ridicule my beliefs and then on the other you say they're at least legitimate enough to get a snuffer like following. Except - oops - Alaris isn't the only one who believes in MMP! Lizzy60 chimed in and we used good old ad hominem to marginalize her. Let's see how you are doing with these rules you are following:

Saul Alinksy's Rules For Radicals (The book is dedicated to Lucifer)
Always remember the first rule of power tactics: Power is not only what you have but what the enemy thinks you have.
The second rule is: Never go outside the experience of your people.
…The third rule is: Wherever possible go outside the experience of the enemy. Here you want to cause confusion, fear, and retreat.
…the fourth rule is: Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules.
…the fourth rule carries within it the fifth rule: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.
…the sixth rule is: A good tactic is one that your people enjoy.
…the seventh rule is: A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.
…the eighth rule: Keep the pressure on.
…the ninth rule: The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.
The tenth rule: The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition.
…The eleventh rule is: If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside.
…The twelfth rule: The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative.
…The thirteenth rule: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it

Hey hey not bad! I intended to bold only the rules that apply, but it looks like you're doing very well on nearly all of them. Nice work! Twelve doesn't really apply since you've only succeeded in showing that you have a lot more in common with Saul Alinksy than you do the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I put one of the rules in red that may apply, however. I'm sure most people have gotten the point that you and your high fivers are all suffering from Alma 12:10

Alma 12:10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

My, what a tender little flower alarisherem has turned out to be. Don't stomp on his his fantasy, his pretended special doctrine, or he'll be hurt. When will he learn that his attempts at guilt trips won't work? Maybe never.

lizzy60...bwahahaha. Yes, a definite authority on swords that burn and what not.

For those keeping score, alarisherem digs himself ever deeper into heresy. It's going to take a serious talking with his bishop to save himself.

I added a bit to my last post you may want to check out. Bishops don't save Silver. I don't know if you ..knew that .. or not.

Anyway - I love how you use the word "fantasy" and are the one pretending that Alaris is hurt - and then working yourself up into a frenetic glee over my pretend hurt! So Christlike of you! I called this out pages ago - the naysayer high fivers will keep up the insults and "keep the pressure on" as Saul Alinksy calls it until Alaris loses his cool and then we'll dance and rant and take glee in our victory .... we won! Well, if he never gives in, we'll at least pretend to win if he ever comes close to stooping to this level.

I know tone is hard to convey, but I actually find you quite entertaining Silver - always have. You couldn't ask for a better illustration of Alma 12:10-11.

I know you recognize this. You know you are stuck in this behavior, but just remember - the moment you pray and confess this behavior to the Lord, immediately will the atonement begin to work in your soul. Rise above brother!

Alma 34:31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.

Salvation does not equal Exaltation - You are welcome Spaced_Out!

It's very sad that you don't recognize what a pitiful shell of a heretic you've become as demonstrated by the desperate grasping on to each person who has drifted through this thread and offered a bit of support to you. Then you go off to other threads and talk (with LDS Anarchist, no less...do you want me to share the private message you sent me about him?) about how bored you've become with the naysayers here. (But you're careful to go back and edit those comments out of LDSA's thread, aren't you?) So, you flaming hypocritical heretic, I know exactly how empty your false doctrine is. Then you trot out Alinsky like it has some sort of relevance. Doesn't work. I know the truth. So as long as my Bible says that God works through prophets and as long as you teach the opposite of what the prophets teach, you're a heretic.