Setting aside the rhetoric that some would consider inflammatory, does this article make any good points?

[gardener4life]

If you talk to some of the old timers in your ward that are still around a lot of them will tell you that paper has always been a hard liner stance against the church. They will tell you when J.F. Smith was prophet they attacked him relentlessly. They have a history of being hard liner anti mormons for yearssssssss. You can go back and look at their archive and see that they've published anti-mormon articles for a long time.

What I don't get is why people buy their paper? It doesn't do good to have someone destroying faith in your area, so why support that paper? People should just all at once boycott that paper.

[larsenb]

If you talk to some of the old timers in your ward that are still around a lot of them will tell you that paper has always been a hard liner stance against the church. They will tell you when J.F. Smith was prophet they attacked him relentlessly. They have a history of being hard liner anti mormons for yearssssssss. You can go back and look at their archive and see that they've published anti-mormon articles for a long time.

What I don't get is why people buy their paper? It doesn't do good to have someone destroying faith in your area, so why support that paper? People should just all at once boycott that paper.

Apparently Paul Huntsman, a son of Jon Huntsman, Sr., bought the Tribune. I wonder if that will change their anti-LDS stance? Maybe it will start giving us balanced information regarding Pres. Trump, in opposition to the Deseret News??

[TrueIntent]

I realize people say things they don't mean, and we should offer mercy that maybe he didn't mean what he said the way he said it, But over time, people like oaks establish patterns of communication that reveal that yes...they did mean what they said the way they said it.

. . . .

You mentioned President Uchtdorf. I have met him, by the way, and I love that man more than I can express for some very personal reasons that I won't share publicly (nothing serious, just personal). However, I have known people that have worked with him in the church and I can tell you he can be extremely stern, and maybe even harsh, when things don't meet his expectations. I really love his talks and you are right, he speaks to a different audience. I often wonder if that causes any sort of tension among the 12. . . . . .

You may want to edit that name. The way you spell it could be taken as deprecation of the man.

I'm no respecter of persons, I misspell his name, along with many others. I type on an iPad, and sometimes a cellphone with two thumbs....i don't give much for spelling, because it already takes longer than I would like to type, and spell check doesn't show like it does on my computer, and sometimes I don't even proofread,...whoa!!!! I know...just irreverent.

[TrueIntent]

declared themselves to be infallible or completely void of any faults or failings. Just the opposite in fact

Mark stating from the pulpit that the prophet will never lead you astray is pretty much a claim of infallibility.

Mark, I have heard this paraphrased and quoted countless times over the pulpit...I used to believe it myself....you will find it in the official declaration of your scriptures behind doctrine and covenants . The leadership has quoted or paraphrased it in general conference as well many times..pointing to themselves ....it's false teaching, it reminds me of the line in th video.....tell everyone you know to "trust us"....that really made me feel uncomfortable.

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

I have addressed this multiple times in the past but just for the record again if you go to section 107 the Lord answers this for you.

79 And the Presidency of the council of the High Priesthood shall have power to call other high priests, even twelve, to assist as counselors; and thus the Presidency of the High Priesthood and its counselors shall have power to decide upon testimony according to the laws of the church.

80 And after this decision it shall be had in remembrance no more before the Lord; for this is the highest council of the church of God, and a final decision upon controversies in spiritual matters.

81 There is not any person belonging to the church who is exempt from this council of the church.

82 And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood;

83 And their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him.

84 Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness.

Now remember the laws of God are done in order according to truth and righteousness. That is why Priesthood Govt as set up by the Lord is so critical to the operations of the kingdom. If the President of the High Priesthood transgresses those laws in his stewardship role he will be dealt with righteously thru Priesthood Govt. councils just like the Lord has outlined in section 107. At that point the controversy is over. Now If you believe all of these Priesthood Govt. councils set up in TCOJCOLDS have become corrupted well then there really isnt anything else for us to talk about. Our divide would be just to great. You would be better suited to just go join another organization like Snuffers or Harmstons or ... ad naseum and take your chances. Cheers.

Ok...thats fair, I do believe in a government and body for governing in the church....but I also believe that the church is only as righteous (and its operation) as the people running it...just like the Book of Mormon, when the people become prideful, it infiltrates the "government" of the church....when people are wicked, they eventually overrun the church.....

So back to that quote...I believe the use of that quote, reflects the beliefs of the body of the membership, ....the way you use it now, sounds like a fair statement(you are referencing the governing body of the priesthood) , but the way I have heard it used in context, is that the leaders do not make mistakes....and when I have asked questions, or had concerns, that quote is used in the context of...."they can't lead us astray....this is the true church that can't fall...alll is well in Zion...follow the brethren...the church will roll forth "I would also like to add in context, this quote was given attached to the manifesto, when members were leaving in groves, and wilford woodruff was under a lot of pressure....and it's still not doctrinal....the Lord doesn't remove anyone from president of the church....we do. We as a righteous body, are supposed to remove wicked leaders out of OUR Midst. There are quorums and governing bodies in place for courts, and excommunication. In the early church, leaders who were not repentant, or who would not correct themselves, were called to repentance....

By the way, I'm not saying anybody is wicked and that they need to be removed from office. But there should be an obvious admission of guilt, or ownership taken for the handling of church history. But should someone be removed from office or position, I think not . But it is very likely they will lose trust and respect of the membership if they don't at least make a full admission....it's their choice. The. Gospel is about repentance...which require confession

[Juliet]

I wish the temple recommend question was do we sustain the church leaders as they act in harmony with the Holy Spirit. The way the question is worded now seems gestapo. Why do we teach to follow the prophet? This culture is not appropriate. We are to listen to the Holy Spirit and through it sustain the words said by those called as prophets as prophetic. D&C 50 tells us to use discernment because many false spirits are received by members and leaders that are not of God. So, does the prophet teach by the Spirit of truth, or by some other way? If it is some other way, it is not of God. We sustain them folks, we sustain them. Let's be responsible for who we sustain because it is our obligation to take upon us the name of Christ and do what Jesus would do, to stand up for truth and righteousness at all times, things and places. The prophets lead in a telestial world. When that changes, their keys will be given back to Jesus Christ.

This presupposes that you have the Holy Spirit and can discern that they lack the same.

Why would you think that you have greater access to that spirit than those called of the Lord would have?

How would you discern that your guidance is from the Holy Spirit and theirs is not?

It isn't supposed to be greater it is supposed to be equal, your witness and their witness are a double witness. If I go around feeling in my heart a certain truth and then I hear it in general conference, then I have 2 witnesses that feeling on my heart was from the correct spirit. I have actually had that happen. Actually I even had a blog which is down now where one of the psalms I pointed about that King David wrote about how obedience done out of fear leads to wisdom, and Elder Bednar gave the same scripture and made the same point that I had made in my blog in his talk about obeying first and then receiving the light and knowledge after.

I think we are all learning together and we have to trust ourselves because even if trusting our self turns out to be wrong, it is better to make a mistake and learn from it then never trust yourself and be gullible to anything anyone says and then you are not able to learn from your own experiences. That doesn't mean don't obey the prophet if you don't want to, because usually doing the right thing is the hardest thing to do. But if we give away our facilities of reason then how can we expect them to improve?

I guess what I am saying is we don't know for sure but we do our best and when we find we were not correct in discerning the Spirit of truth, then; we repent.

[Juliet]

I wish the temple recommend question was do we sustain the church leaders as they act in harmony with the Holy Spirit. The way the question is worded now seems gestapo. Why do we teach to follow the prophet? This culture is not appropriate. We are to listen to the Holy Spirit and through it sustain the words said by those called as prophets as prophetic. D&C 50 tells us to use discernment because many false spirits are received by members and leaders that are not of God. So, does the prophet teach by the Spirit of truth, or by some other way? If it is some other way, it is not of God. We sustain them folks, we sustain them. Let's be responsible for who we sustain because it is our obligation to take upon us the name of Christ and do what Jesus would do, to stand up for truth and righteousness at all times, things and places. The prophets lead in a telestial world. When that changes, their keys will be given back to Jesus Christ.

I used to think that because I was so evil, wicked, and worthless that I was all alone in life. I didn't feel and I didn't believe that Jesus Christ was with me, helping me, or sustaining me. Then one day all of this changed. When I was ready to believe and ready to accept Jesus, He came to me and washed away all of my sins and made me clean. After this event I was able to discern with my spiritual eyes and looking back on my life and I now knew that Jesus Christ was always with me. He had never abandoned me, and was constantly supporting me and blessing me, even when I was acting wickedly.

I learned from this that a person doesn't need to be acting in all righteousness or always be doing the right things in order for me to sustain them. Jesus was sustaining me all along no matter what I did, so it would be hypocritical of me to demand that others live up to my expectations before I sustain them.

God is merciful, kind, good hearted, meek, and submissive. He doesn't abandon us and He blesses both the wicked and the righteous. I believe I need to be the same in how I treat others, including the leaders of the Church.

-Finrock

Thank you for sharing this view, it really helps.

[inho]

I think this blog post does a relatively good job in addressing both Elder Ballard's statements and FearlessFixxer's opinion piece:
Elder Ballard Talks Church History, and the MormonLeaks Team Responds

If you don't have time to read the whole thing, here are the conclusions:

Most of the suggestions by the MormonLeaks team have merit, but the way the article was written puts in question the intentions of the authors. Ryan McKnight has done several blogposts for the site Medium, some more sober and penitent, others oozing with sarcasm. This was closer to the latter than the former. This was venting (real frustration) and taking advantage of a recent gaffe to “stick it to the man.” Had he really been wanting the attention of orthodox members, it’s unlikely he would’ve gone to the Tribune. In his most recent Medium post, McKnight noted the Salt Lake Tribune is “affectionately known as Satan’s Printing Press and Korihor’s Soapbox by most internet tough guys and gals who could defend a sexual predator to the point of worshipping him as a prophet of god…”

Which is incredibly frustrating, because Elder Ballard’s statements deserved better. The editorial was a missed opportunity.

[buffalo_girl]

It isn't supposed to be greater it is supposed to be equal, your witness and their witness are a double witness. If I go around feeling in my heart a certain truth and then I hear it in general conference, then I have 2 witnesses that feeling on my heart was from the correct spirit. I have actually had that happen. Actually I even had a blog which is down now where one of the psalms I pointed about that King David wrote about how obedience done out of fear leads to wisdom, and Elder Bednar gave the same scripture and made the same point that I had made in my blog in his talk about obeying first and then receiving the light and knowledge after.

I agree with 'double witness' confirmation.

However, I really don't know of anything in Christ's Gospel which has required that I "obey out of fear". I'm not sure I understand how 'fearful obedience' applies to Christ's Gospel. (I can certainly understand David's paranoia, but I'm not David.)

I prefer to TRUST The LORD's hope for me to become who He knows I can be, rather than to ignorantly 'obey out of fear'. What is so egregious we are asked - by The LORD to DO - requiring fear to make it happen? (Please don't use 'our prophet told us not to have multiple ear piercings' as an example. Sorry, I'm being cynical. That's the one most often heard in Relief Society when the 'obey the prophet' principle is discussed.)

I thought it was FAITH upon which our mortal lives are founded and motivated - which to my mind, equates to TRUST in God the Father, His Plan of Salvation as exemplified by His Son, Jesus Christ.

Indeed, there are eternal LAWS upon which this Plan is fulfilled; LAWS which - as children of God - we are blessed with the Intelligence to understand and the Will to apply as we seek our Savior's succor in our spiritual development.

TRUST

[Juliet]

It isn't supposed to be greater it is supposed to be equal, your witness and their witness are a double witness. If I go around feeling in my heart a certain truth and then I hear it in general conference, then I have 2 witnesses that feeling on my heart was from the correct spirit. I have actually had that happen. Actually I even had a blog which is down now where one of the psalms I pointed about that King David wrote about how obedience done out of fear leads to wisdom, and Elder Bednar gave the same scripture and made the same point that I had made in my blog in his talk about obeying first and then receiving the light and knowledge after.

I agree with 'double witness' confirmation.

However, I really don't know of anything in Christ's Gospel which has required that I "obey out of fear". I'm not sure I understand how 'fearful obedience' applies to Christ's Gospel. (I can certainly understand David's paranoia, but I'm not David.)

I prefer to TRUST The LORD's hope for me to become who He knows I can be, rather than to ignorantly 'obey out of fear'. What is so egregious we are asked - by The LORD to DO - requiring fear to make it happen? (Please don't use 'our prophet told us not to have multiple ear piercings' as an example. Sorry, I'm being cynical. That's the one most often heard in Relief Society when the 'obey the prophet' principle is discussed.)

I thought it was FAITH upon which our mortal lives are founded and motivated - which to my mind, equates to TRUST in God the Father, His Plan of Salvation as exemplified by His Son, Jesus Christ.

Indeed, there are eternal LAWS upon which this Plan is fulfilled; LAWS which - as children of God - we are blessed with the Intelligence to understand and the Will to apply as we seek our Savior's succor in our spiritual development.

TRUST

That is because you are not wicked. Wicked people only know fear, so that's the only way they obey until they learn what truth and love feels like. But that is a side point.

[buffalo_girl]

I suspect truly 'wicked' people are incapable of godly fear.

[Ratbag]

This article is nothing more than a pathetic hit piece by two whiners and crybabies who are looking for something to complain about. I will say this for the article: it's fairly grammatically correct, which is about all you can say for it. Any Latter-day Saint who gives any credibility to this "journalism" (I really have to stretch the term to include this article) has a problem with his testimony in the first place. If you think the Church is hiding something, then you simply have not done any research for yourself; you have not expended any effort. The information is out there and accessible. If you are lazy and aren't interested in investigating anything beyond the three hours in Church on Sunday, you won't learn a single thing. A sincere, genuinely interested attitude of learning is necessary to discover the truth. Watching reruns of the Simpsons won't cut it.

[Rand]

I wish the temple recommend question was do we sustain the church leaders as they act in harmony with the Holy Spirit. The way the question is worded now seems gestapo. Why do we teach to follow the prophet? This culture is not appropriate. We are to listen to the Holy Spirit and through it sustain the words said by those called as prophets as prophetic. D&C 50 tells us to use discernment because many false spirits are received by members and leaders that are not of God. So, does the prophet teach by the Spirit of truth, or by some other way? If it is some other way, it is not of God. We sustain them folks, we sustain them. Let's be responsible for who we sustain because it is our obligation to take upon us the name of Christ and do what Jesus would do, to stand up for truth and righteousness at all times, things and places. The prophets lead in a telestial world. When that changes, their keys will be given back to Jesus Christ.

I think one of the greatest challenges in life is humbling yourself to put yourself in their hands. I have had two experiences lately where sisters going through marital problems were both given horrible advise from their leaders. It was awful, demeaning advise... until some time had passed, and the wisdom of the seeming horrible advise became apparent.
The Special Witnesses of HIs name, the Apostles, are His servants. They are called to stand in His stead. They are in His hands. He will counsel, correct, redirect, chasten, hasten and humble as He sees fit. If we feel to stand between Him and HIs chosen servants, and take it upon our selves to reprove disapprove or advise, we are indeed steadying the ark.
Once we gain the witness that they are His witnesses we are to trust that knowledge, just like finding out the Book of Mormon is true, we don't have to seek validation about every teaching it contains. We seek the spirit to instruct about those teachings, to deepen out understanding, but not as to wether they are inspired or not. I think the same thing is true of His chosen servants. Once you find that out, trust it. Then, seek greater insight from their teachings, but don't question those teachings. I think it is great you are learning new ideas before they teach them. I thin it is a sure sign you are on the right path.
Now, Juliet, I know you are way smarter than I am. I am a rather simple person. But, I would try to ease your burden in some way, if I can. Bless you.