LoF: God is NOT a personage of spirit.

[brlenox]

Joseph Fielding Smith said the following concerning their removal:

a) They were not received as revelations by the prophet Joseph Smith.
b) They are instructions relative to the general subject of faith. They are explanations of this principle but not doctrine.
c) They are not complete as to their teachings regarding the Godhead. More complete instructions on the point of doctrine are given in section 130 of the 1876 and all subsequent editions of the Doctrine and Covenants.
d) It was thought by Elder James E. Talmage, chairman, and other members of the committee who were responsible for their omission that to avoid confusion and contention on this vital point of belief, it would be better not to have them bound in the same volume as the commandments or revelations which make up the Doctrine and Covenants.

Opinions on the authorship and status of the lectures in Latter-day Saint literature have varied widely among both scholars and church authorities. Elders Bruce R. McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith both saw Joseph Smith as a principal author of the lectures and believed he had approved them in full, having revised and prepared them for publication.11 However, that view does not appear to have been generally shared by the church leadership that discontinued official publication of the seven lectures in 1921

At least some of the presiding brethren possibly held the view published later by Elder John A. Widtsoe, who believed they were "written by Sidney Rigdon and others."13 Three independent authorship studies conducted in recent decades and using different reputable techniques all conclude that Sidney Rigdon was the primary author of the lectures. Based on these studies, not a single lecture can conclusively be attributed to Joseph Smith.

Very good Arenera. I am pleased that you put a little backing behind your refutations. So much so that I am not going to bother with an analysis of what you have shared. My analysis is less important than the fact that you have sought some sort of supporting material. Let's just leave it at that and hope that you will continue in such progress.

[brlenox]

It absolutely does. The fact that sixteen of the brethren in the "school of the prophets" were visited while in the flesh by both members of the Godhead at the same time is the fruit of their collective labors in having specifically written the Lectures on Faith for the school of the prophets.

A most brilliant and notable observation.

[marc]

In the spirit of fostering harmony, I am bowing out as well.

[Arenera]

Unquestionably (if predictably) the most problematic chapter in the commentary section is Robert L. Millet’s discussion of Lecture 5 and the Godhead. Millet follows Bruce R. McConkie in arguing that Lecture 5 “is without question the most excellent summmary of revealed and eternal truth relative to the Godhead that is now extant in mortal language” (p. 221). Such unadulterated poppycock displays the Mormon harmonist tradition in its worst light; if such a statement were true, then Elders Talmage, Widtsoe and Smith should never have recommended the deletion of the Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants. I believe this is a case where Joseph Fidlding Smith, who freely acknolwledged the doctrinal inadequacy of Lecture 5, was on much firmer ground than his son-in-law. Millet tries hard to harmonize with traditional Mormon doctrine statements to the effect that (i) there are two personages in the Godhead, (ii) the Father is a personage of spirit, and (iii) the Holy Spirit is the mind of the Father and the Son, but ultimately fails.

There is much of value in the Lectures on Faith; they certainly deserve wider study, and this volume will be a useful tool in encouraging such study. They cannot, however, seriously compete with the scriptures. Portions of the Lectures are ponderously pedantic, and some of the material is simply wrong. Call me old fashioned, but I whole-heartedly concur with the decision to remove the Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants, and I view attempts to elevate the authority of the Lectures to a par with the scriptures themselves as misguided.

Kevin Barney

[Serragon]

Unquestionably (if predictably) the most problematic chapter in the commentary section is Robert L. Millet’s discussion of Lecture 5 and the Godhead. Millet follows Bruce R. McConkie in arguing that Lecture 5 “is without question the most excellent summmary of revealed and eternal truth relative to the Godhead that is now extant in mortal language” (p. 221). Such unadulterated poppycock displays the Mormon harmonist tradition in its worst light; if such a statement were true, then Elders Talmage, Widtsoe and Smith should never have recommended the deletion of the Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants. I believe this is a case where Joseph Fidlding Smith, who freely acknolwledged the doctrinal inadequacy of Lecture 5, was on much firmer ground than his son-in-law. Millet tries hard to harmonize with traditional Mormon doctrine statements to the effect that (i) there are two personages in the Godhead, (ii) the Father is a personage of spirit, and (iii) the Holy Spirit is the mind of the Father and the Son, but ultimately fails.

There is much of value in the Lectures on Faith; they certainly deserve wider study, and this volume will be a useful tool in encouraging such study. They cannot, however, seriously compete with the scriptures. Portions of the Lectures are ponderously pedantic, and some of the material is simply wrong. Call me old fashioned, but I whole-heartedly concur with the decision to remove the Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants, and I view attempts to elevate the authority of the Lectures to a par with the scriptures themselves as misguided.

Kevin Barney

Who is Kevin Barney? And why is his opinion being quoted as though it is more important or authoritative than others?

[Arenera]

Unquestionably (if predictably) the most problematic chapter in the commentary section is Robert L. Millet’s discussion of Lecture 5 and the Godhead. Millet follows Bruce R. McConkie in arguing that Lecture 5 “is without question the most excellent summmary of revealed and eternal truth relative to the Godhead that is now extant in mortal language” (p. 221). Such unadulterated poppycock displays the Mormon harmonist tradition in its worst light; if such a statement were true, then Elders Talmage, Widtsoe and Smith should never have recommended the deletion of the Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants. I believe this is a case where Joseph Fidlding Smith, who freely acknolwledged the doctrinal inadequacy of Lecture 5, was on much firmer ground than his son-in-law. Millet tries hard to harmonize with traditional Mormon doctrine statements to the effect that (i) there are two personages in the Godhead, (ii) the Father is a personage of spirit, and (iii) the Holy Spirit is the mind of the Father and the Son, but ultimately fails.

There is much of value in the Lectures on Faith; they certainly deserve wider study, and this volume will be a useful tool in encouraging such study. They cannot, however, seriously compete with the scriptures. Portions of the Lectures are ponderously pedantic, and some of the material is simply wrong. Call me old fashioned, but I whole-heartedly concur with the decision to remove the Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants, and I view attempts to elevate the authority of the Lectures to a par with the scriptures themselves as misguided.

Kevin Barney

Who is Kevin Barney? And why is his opinion being quoted as though it is more important or authoritative than others?

Kevin Barney is a regular person, who brings up points on the LoF, like the the LoF
- Cannot seriously compete with scriptures.
- Some material is wrong.
- Millet/BRM comments are poppycock.
- Should have been removed, agrees with that decision.

[brlenox]

And through the whole history of the scheme of life and salvation, it is a matter of faith: every man received according to his faith—according as his faith was, so were his blessings and privileges; and nothing was withheld from him when his faith was sufficient to receive it. He could stop the mouths of lions, quench the violence of fire, escape the edge of the sword, wax valiant in fight, and put to flight the armies of the aliens; women could, by their faith, receive their dead children to life again; in a word, there was nothing impossible with them who had faith. All things were in subjection to the Former-day Saints, according as their faith was. By their faith they could obtain heavenly visions, the ministering of angels, have knowledge of the spirits of just men made perfect, of the general assembly and church of the first born, whose names are written in heaven, of God the judge of all, of Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and become familiar with the third heavens, see and hear things which were not only unutterable, but were unlawful to utter. Joseph Smith Lectures on Faith, Pg. 67

These are indeed powerful words. Valuable instructions from the Lectures on Faith.

[brlenox]

Let us here observe, that three things are necessary in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation.

First, the idea that he actually exists.

Secondly, a correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes.

Thirdly, an actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing is according to his will. For without an acquaintance with these three important facts, the faith of every rational being must be imperfect and unproductive; but with this understanding it can become perfect and fruitful, abounding in righteousness, unto the praise and glory of God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, 3:2-5)

The text fully speaks for itself - brilliant material.

[drtanner]

How do modern prophets and apostles feel about the lectures on faith?

Elder Maxwell April Conference 1991
Inspired words do matter, for “when a man works by faith he works by … words.” (Lectures on Faith, 7:3.)

Elder Bednar April Conference 2008 The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “faith [is] the first principle in revealed religion, and the foundation of all righteousness” and that it is also “the principle of action in all intelligent beings” (Lectures on Faith [1985], 1).

President Uchtdorf April 2007 Conference
We need a strong faith in Christ to be able to repent. Our faith has to include a “correct idea of [God’s] character, perfections, and attributes” (Lectures on Faith [1985], 38).
The Prophet Joseph further explained that “faith is not only the principle of action, but of power also, in all intelligent beings, whether in heaven or on earth” (Lectures on Faith, 3)

President Bensen April 1979 Conference
The Prophet Joseph Smith prepared this remarkable statement on the principle of sacrifice for the Lectures on Faith:
“Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation” (Lectures on Faith, 6:7).
“It is in vain for persons to fancy to themselves that they are heirs with those … who have offered their all in sacrifice … unless they, in like manner, offer unto him the same sacrifice (Lectures on Faith, 6:8; italics added).

Elder Christofferson April 2009 Conference“It was [the knowledge that their course in life conformed to the will of God] that enabled the ancient saints to endure all their afflictions and persecutions, and to take … not only the spoiling of their goods, and the wasting of their substance, joyfully, but also to suffer death in its most horrid forms; knowing (not merely believing) that when this earthly house of their tabernacle was dissolved, they had a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2 Cor. 5:1.)” (Lectures on Faith [1985], 67).
They further pointed out that in offering whatever sacrifice God may require of us, we obtain the witness of the Spirit that our course is right and pleasing to God (see Lectures on Faith, 69–71).

Elder Maxwell 2000 Oct Conference It also helps in resisting the tugs and pulls of the world if we, though imperfect, know that currently the course of our life is generally acceptable to the Lord (see Lectures on Faith [1985], 67).

Elder Carmack April Conference 1993 In the Lectures on Faith, prepared by brethren under the direction of Joseph Smith in Kirtland, Ohio, the authors asked, “What are we to understand by a man’s working by faith? We answer—we understand that when a man works by faith he works by mental exertion instead of physical force. It is by words, instead of exerting his physical powers, with which every being works when he works by faith.”

Elder Tuttle October 1975 Conference There is great power in faith. “Faith is the moving cause of all action. …” (Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, p. 8.)

And the list goes on and on

[Serragon]

The Lectures on Faith are beautiful. I believe them to be some of the best writing on faith given to us in our modern dispensation.

I find it hard to understand that some want to basically throw them away. I believe Aneara said earlier that "we don't need them."

Much of what we use as source material in our modern church is not scripture, yet still has amazing value. Most of our sacrament meeting talks are based off of General Conference talks. Our Quorum lessons are based on non-scriptural utterances of modern prophets. And yet we don't reject them. We allow the Spirit to enlighten and enlarge us while we consume and study them. Can't the same be true of the Lectures on Faith?

[Arenera]

The LoF don’t compete with scripture, especially when there are some errors, like in L5.

They are ok for a teaching manual in the 1800’s. Most people are confused thinking JS wrote them, he didn’t. And where are the Book of Mormon scriptures, the most correct book in the world?

[icarus]

I want to thank marc and mcusick. I was contemplating the discussed LoF points and have been confused for quite some time.

The flood light came on and now I feel peace.

[Finrock]

The LoF don’t compete with scripture, especially when there are some errors, like in L5.

They are ok for a teaching manual in the 1800’s. Most people are confused thinking JS wrote them, he didn’t. And where are the Book of Mormon scriptures, the most correct book in the world?

Arenera,

The errors in this case are not in the LoF, L5, but in your understanding/interpretation. L5 and what is being taught there is truly a beautiful, eye opening, and wonderful truth about Heavenly Father, the Godhead, and us. The seeming error and contradiction does not actually exist. I see no error and I see no contradiction with the LoF and the other standard works. I used see what I believed was an error and I used to chalk it up to the idea that the LoF represented a kinda of a first step in understanding and that later Joseph Smith got a more full understanding of the gospel, and the LoF were kind of an transitional document as the doctrine fully developed. I know now that I was wrong and that Joseph Smith was right to allow this to stand as scripture and doctrine for decades, along with other prophets, seers, and revelators, who esteemed the LoF as such. The LoF faith actually entails the most comprehensive and the most accurate portrayal and understanding of the doctrine of God and the Godhead that we have available to us. So, not to be elitist or to come across as superior, better, or more righteous (because I am not) it wasn't until the Holy Spirit opened my eyes that I was able to realize what it is that is being taught and all of my concerns about the LoF, including L5, disappeared.

-Finrock

[Arenera]

The LoF don’t compete with scripture, especially when there are some errors, like in L5.

They are ok for a teaching manual in the 1800’s. Most people are confused thinking JS wrote them, he didn’t. And where are the Book of Mormon scriptures, the most correct book in the world?

Arenera,

The errors in this case are not in the LoF, L5, but in your understanding/interpretation. L5 and what is being taught there is truly a beautiful, eye opening, and wonderful truth about Heavenly Father, the Godhead, and us. The seeming error and contradiction does not actually exist. I see no error and I see no contradiction with the LoF and the other standard works. I used see what I believed was an error and I used to chalk it up to the idea that the LoF represented a kinda of a first step in understanding and that later Joseph Smith got a more full understanding of the gospel, and the LoF were kind of an transitional document as the doctrine fully developed. I know now that I was wrong and that Joseph Smith was right to allow this to stand as scripture and doctrine for decades, along with other prophets, seers, and revelators, who esteemed the LoF as such. The LoF faith actually entails the most comprehensive and the most accurate portrayal and understanding of the doctrine of God and the Godhead that we have available to us. So, not to be elitist or to come across as superior, better, or more righteous (because I am not) it wasn't until the Holy Spirit opened my eyes that I was able to realize what it is that is being taught and all of my concerns about the LoF, including L5, disappeared.

-Finrock

It’s available for any to study. Elder Talmage and others believed it shouldn’t be part of the scriptures, so they aren’t.

[Arenera]

Which is quoted more, CS Lewis or LoF?

[diligently seeking]

The Father is a personage of spirit AND glory AND power. That is why it also describes Him possessing ALL perfection AND fullness. You and I are personages of spirit AND tabernacle ONLY. But we do not have glory or power. One cannot have glory AND power without a tabernacle of flesh (and bone), which the Father has, possessing ALL perfection AND fullness. Once Jesus was resurrected, He became a personage of spirit AND glory AND power just like His Father, whereas during His mortal ministry, he was a personage of spirit and tabernacle. There are, however, many people yet to be born into this mortal life who are ONLY personages of spirit.

What vital and beautiful functions of Christ's POWER these words / truths are that we need to lay hold upon:

Moroni 10:
30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.

31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.
34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen.
The End

[brlenox]

The LoF don’t compete with scripture, especially when there are some errors, like in L5.

They are ok for a teaching manual in the 1800’s. Most people are confused thinking JS wrote them, he didn’t. And where are the Book of Mormon scriptures, the most correct book in the world?

Arenera,

The errors in this case are not in the LoF, L5, but in your understanding/interpretation. L5 and what is being taught there is truly a beautiful, eye opening, and wonderful truth about Heavenly Father, the Godhead, and us. The seeming error and contradiction does not actually exist. I see no error and I see no contradiction with the LoF and the other standard works. I used see what I believed was an error and I used to chalk it up to the idea that the LoF represented a kinda of a first step in understanding and that later Joseph Smith got a more full understanding of the gospel, and the LoF were kind of an transitional document as the doctrine fully developed. I know now that I was wrong and that Joseph Smith was right to allow this to stand as scripture and doctrine for decades, along with other prophets, seers, and revelators, who esteemed the LoF as such. The LoF faith actually entails the most comprehensive and the most accurate portrayal and understanding of the doctrine of God and the Godhead that we have available to us. So, not to be elitist or to come across as superior, better, or more righteous (because I am not) it wasn't until the Holy Spirit opened my eyes that I was able to realize what it is that is being taught and all of my concerns about the LoF, including L5, disappeared.

-Finrock

It’s available for any to study. Elder Talmage and others believed it shouldn’t be part of the scriptures, so they aren’t.

Have you ever studied it?

[justkeepswimming]

Marc, I dare say nobody is better at quoting church history and scripture better than you, but anybody can find this stuff. What makes a man unique is his ability to articulate his personal experiences in order to edify those around him, to lift them up. I'm personally here looking for that kind of man but all I see from you is man who is behind the curtain of history and scripture which we ALL have access to. What I don't have access to is learning from your experience that you have had with God the Father. Help me / us with that.

[marc]

Marc, I dare say nobody is better at quoting church history and scripture better than you, but anybody can find this stuff. What makes a man unique is his ability to articulate his personal experiences in order to edify those around him, to lift them up. I'm personally here looking for that kind of man but all I see from you is man who is behind the curtain of history and scripture which we ALL have access to. What I don't have access to is learning from your experience that you have had with God the Father. Help me / us with that.

I have shared my most intimate experiences with very few. It is probably better this way because they are meant for me. They would hinder most because of their unbelief, especially considering my low station in life and the church. I am nobody with "authority." The point of the LoF is not to prove how inspired they are or aren't. They are intended to produce a result, which they did and have for only a handful of people in the last two hundred years. LDS Anarchist asks, "who cares?" because they don't contain God's holy word. Arenera asks where are the Book of Mormon scriptures, the most correct book in the world? Here are the most important words from the Book of Mormon, which summarize the purpose the LoF were created and why the BoM contain the fullness of the gospel, which fulness people reject and for which we are under condemnation:

Ether 4:7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.

9 And at my command the heavens are opened and are shut; and at my word the earth shall shake; and at my command the inhabitants thereof shall pass away, even so as by fire.

10 And he that believeth not my words believeth not my disciples; and if it so be that I do not speak, judge ye; for ye shall know that it is I that speaketh, at the last day.

11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.

12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel...

The LoF were written for the same purpose that Moses sought diligently to sanctify his people (D&C 84).

26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.

28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

When ALL the people are prophets, they will know the covenant made to their fathers. They will know because they will have stood face to face with the Lord as the bro of Jared. They will have been made partakers of His heavenly gift (4 Nephi 1:3, Ether 12:8, Hebrews 6:4). They will have been redeemed from the Fall. They will be Zion.

D&C 84:23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also...

Most don't believe. They don't want to believe. They don't want to sacrifice. They will not obey the words of the Lord as given to Moroni in Ether 4. That stuff is only for "extremists" and "fanatics." There is nothing left for me to write.

[Arenera]

Marc, I dare say nobody is better at quoting church history and scripture better than you, but anybody can find this stuff. What makes a man unique is his ability to articulate his personal experiences in order to edify those around him, to lift them up. I'm personally here looking for that kind of man but all I see from you is man who is behind the curtain of history and scripture which we ALL have access to. What I don't have access to is learning from your experience that you have had with God the Father. Help me / us with that.

I have shared my most intimate experiences with very few. It is probably better this way because they are meant for me. They would hinder most because of their unbelief, especially considering my low station in life and the church. I am nobody with "authority." The point of the LoF is not to prove how inspired they are or aren't. They are intended to produce a result, which they did and have for only a handful of people in the last two hundred years. LDS Anarchist asks, "who cares?" because they don't contain God's holy word. Arenera asks where are the Book of Mormon scriptures, the most correct book in the world? Here are the most important words from the Book of Mormon, which summarize the purpose the LoF were created and why the BoM contain the fullness of the gospel, which fulness people reject and for which we are under condemnation:

Ether 4:7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.

9 And at my command the heavens are opened and are shut; and at my word the earth shall shake; and at my command the inhabitants thereof shall pass away, even so as by fire.

10 And he that believeth not my words believeth not my disciples; and if it so be that I do not speak, judge ye; for ye shall know that it is I that speaketh, at the last day.

11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.

12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel...

The LoF were written for the same purpose that Moses sought diligently to sanctify his people (D&C 84).

26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.

28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

When ALL the people are prophets, they will know the covenant made to their fathers. They will know because they will have stood face to face with the Lord as the bro of Jared. They will have been made partakers of His heavenly gift (4 Nephi 1:3, Ether 12:8, Hebrews 6:4). They will have been redeemed from the Fall. They will be Zion.

D&C 84:23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also...

Most don't believe. They don't want to believe. They don't want to sacrifice. They will not obey the words of the Lord as given to Moroni in Ether 4. That stuff is only for "extremists" and "fanatics." There is nothing left for me to write.

Actually marc, you have been a good example for me. You helped me see the fulness that is in the Book of Mormon, thank you for sharing what you have. I don't expect you to share sacred information but I do like your thoughts on the fulness.

I agree with you that most don't understand or don't want to believe. When you share your threads, I enjoy them and try to help (except maybe this thread). Posters here seem more interested in politics, weird stuff and future predicting.

With your background, I know that the LoF open up to you. While I may have a different opinion on some things, if the LoF are a benefit to a person that is great. I don't believe the LoF are a reason to leave the Church.

[Arenera]

The LoF don’t compete with scripture, especially when there are some errors, like in L5.

They are ok for a teaching manual in the 1800’s. Most people are confused thinking JS wrote them, he didn’t. And where are the Book of Mormon scriptures, the most correct book in the world?

Arenera,

The errors in this case are not in the LoF, L5, but in your understanding/interpretation. L5 and what is being taught there is truly a beautiful, eye opening, and wonderful truth about Heavenly Father, the Godhead, and us. The seeming error and contradiction does not actually exist. I see no error and I see no contradiction with the LoF and the other standard works. I used see what I believed was an error and I used to chalk it up to the idea that the LoF represented a kinda of a first step in understanding and that later Joseph Smith got a more full understanding of the gospel, and the LoF were kind of an transitional document as the doctrine fully developed. I know now that I was wrong and that Joseph Smith was right to allow this to stand as scripture and doctrine for decades, along with other prophets, seers, and revelators, who esteemed the LoF as such. The LoF faith actually entails the most comprehensive and the most accurate portrayal and understanding of the doctrine of God and the Godhead that we have available to us. So, not to be elitist or to come across as superior, better, or more righteous (because I am not) it wasn't until the Holy Spirit opened my eyes that I was able to realize what it is that is being taught and all of my concerns about the LoF, including L5, disappeared.

-Finrock

It’s available for any to study. Elder Talmage and others believed it shouldn’t be part of the scriptures, so they aren’t.

Have you ever studied it?

I have read the LoF a couple of times. I didn't receive any spiritual confirmations about the LoF.

Only recently did I read Noel Reynolds research, which I do agree with. I think it is easy to see that Sidney Rigdon wrote them. I think the reason that those who like the LoF are because they believe Joseph Smith wrote them.

Here is an example:

Robert Millet tries to explain Lecture 5
https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/lectures-f ... -lecture-5

After many years of concentrated study of the Lectures on Faith, and particularly Lecture 5, I have come to appreciate Elder McConkie’s assessment; I believe the doctrines taught therein to be true and the concepts presented—though difficult and in some cases seemingly at odds with more traditional discussions of God and the Godhead—to be deep, penetrating, and, when fully grasped, soul inspiring.

Because the Prophet was not at liberty to reveal all he knew, we are under solemn obligation to read, study, teach, and take seriously that which God did see fit to make known to the Latter-day Saints through him.

Because Joseph Smith was given the mind of Deity, and because he was given the unique power and authorization of “expounding all scriptures” (see D&C 24:5, 9) unto the people of this dispensation, it is both fitting and proper that as we search and prayerfully consider matters pertaining to the Godhead, we give solemn and ponderous thought to insights provided by “the choice seer” of the last days.

Joseph Smith explained
but as the Prophet later observed
Again quoting from the Prophet
the Prophet appears
We cannot avoid the possible conclusion that Joseph Smith simply did not understand the corporeal or physical nature of God at the time the Lectures on Faith were delivered in the winter of 1834–35.
Joseph knew that the heavens
A second possibility is that Joseph Smith

Since Robert Millet views the LoF as being written by Joseph Smith, he believes it is worth "many years of concentrated study".


Another BYU professor's research, Noel Reynolds, shows that Sidney Rigdon wrote the LoF with the style of his protestant learning and living.

When you understand that Joseph Smith did not write the LoF, you can't explain away the inconsistencies.

I believe a person's "many years of concentrated study" would be more useful focusing on the Book of Mormon.

Here is an example of explaining the LoF, from me:

From the LoF:“They are the Father and the Son: the Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fulness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, is a personage of tabernacle”

D&C 130:30 22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

D&C 110 2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.

3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying


The Father and the Son have a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, with glory, and power, and possessing all perfection and fulness. Their eyes as flames of fire, their hair as white as pure snow, their countenance shines above the brightness of the sun, their voices as the sound of rushing great waters.

[brlenox]

Arenera,

The errors in this case are not in the LoF, L5, but in your understanding/interpretation. L5 and what is being taught there is truly a beautiful, eye opening, and wonderful truth about Heavenly Father, the Godhead, and us. The seeming error and contradiction does not actually exist. I see no error and I see no contradiction with the LoF and the other standard works. I used see what I believed was an error and I used to chalk it up to the idea that the LoF represented a kinda of a first step in understanding and that later Joseph Smith got a more full understanding of the gospel, and the LoF were kind of an transitional document as the doctrine fully developed. I know now that I was wrong and that Joseph Smith was right to allow this to stand as scripture and doctrine for decades, along with other prophets, seers, and revelators, who esteemed the LoF as such. The LoF faith actually entails the most comprehensive and the most accurate portrayal and understanding of the doctrine of God and the Godhead that we have available to us. So, not to be elitist or to come across as superior, better, or more righteous (because I am not) it wasn't until the Holy Spirit opened my eyes that I was able to realize what it is that is being taught and all of my concerns about the LoF, including L5, disappeared.

-Finrock

It’s available for any to study. Elder Talmage and others believed it shouldn’t be part of the scriptures, so they aren’t.

Have you ever studied it?

I have read the LoF a couple of times. I didn't receive any spiritual confirmations about the LoF.

Only recently did I read Noel Reynolds research, which I do agree with. I think it is easy to see that Sidney Rigdon wrote them. I think the reason that those who like the LoF are because they believe Joseph Smith wrote them.

Here is an example:

Robert Millet tries to explain Lecture 5
https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/lectures-f ... -lecture-5

After many years of concentrated study of the Lectures on Faith, and particularly Lecture 5, I have come to appreciate Elder McConkie’s assessment; I believe the doctrines taught therein to be true and the concepts presented—though difficult and in some cases seemingly at odds with more traditional discussions of God and the Godhead—to be deep, penetrating, and, when fully grasped, soul inspiring.

Because the Prophet was not at liberty to reveal all he knew, we are under solemn obligation to read, study, teach, and take seriously that which God did see fit to make known to the Latter-day Saints through him.

Because Joseph Smith was given the mind of Deity, and because he was given the unique power and authorization of “expounding all scriptures” (see D&C 24:5, 9) unto the people of this dispensation, it is both fitting and proper that as we search and prayerfully consider matters pertaining to the Godhead, we give solemn and ponderous thought to insights provided by “the choice seer” of the last days.

Joseph Smith explained
but as the Prophet later observed
Again quoting from the Prophet
the Prophet appears
We cannot avoid the possible conclusion that Joseph Smith simply did not understand the corporeal or physical nature of God at the time the Lectures on Faith were delivered in the winter of 1834–35.
Joseph knew that the heavens
A second possibility is that Joseph Smith

Since Robert Millet views the LoF as being written by Joseph Smith, he believes it is worth "many years of concentrated study".


Another BYU professor's research, Noel Reynolds, shows that Sidney Rigdon wrote the LoF with the style of his protestant learning and living.

When you understand that Joseph Smith did not write the LoF, you can't explain away the inconsistencies.

I believe a person's "many years of concentrated study" would be more useful focusing on the Book of Mormon.

Here is an example of explaining the LoF, from me:

From the LoF:“They are the Father and the Son: the Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fulness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, is a personage of tabernacle”

D&C 130:30 22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

D&C 110 2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.

3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying


The Father and the Son have a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, with glory, and power, and possessing all perfection and fulness. Their eyes as flames of fire, their hair as white as pure snow, their countenance shines above the brightness of the sun, their voices as the sound of rushing great waters.

Again, Kudos on a good effort that illustrates that your opinion is based on some type of support. While I have read both of their material on the LOF, Millet and Reynolds tend to be the types I very seldom refer to when I am seeking spiritual insight, though I deem them each good men they lack the authority that creates a sound witness. So naturally I disagree entirely as I have found the lectures illuminating. However, I appreciate your efforts at presenting the appearance of a modicum of study and research that minimizes this as just one more rant by someone who didn't have a clue.

[Arenera]

However, I appreciate your efforts at presenting the appearance of a modicum of study and research that minimizes this as just one more rant by someone who didn't have a clue.

You are so devious.

[brlenox]

However, I appreciate your efforts at presenting the appearance of a modicum of study and research that minimizes this as just one more rant by someone who didn't have a clue.

You are so devious.

[Finrock]

Marc, I dare say nobody is better at quoting church history and scripture better than you, but anybody can find this stuff. What makes a man unique is his ability to articulate his personal experiences in order to edify those around him, to lift them up. I'm personally here looking for that kind of man but all I see from you is man who is behind the curtain of history and scripture which we ALL have access to. What I don't have access to is learning from your experience that you have had with God the Father. Help me / us with that.

I have shared my most intimate experiences with very few. It is probably better this way because they are meant for me. They would hinder most because of their unbelief, especially considering my low station in life and the church. I am nobody with "authority." The point of the LoF is not to prove how inspired they are or aren't. They are intended to produce a result, which they did and have for only a handful of people in the last two hundred years. LDS Anarchist asks, "who cares?" because they don't contain God's holy word. Arenera asks where are the Book of Mormon scriptures, the most correct book in the world? Here are the most important words from the Book of Mormon, which summarize the purpose the LoF were created and why the BoM contain the fullness of the gospel, which fulness people reject and for which we are under condemnation:

Ether 4:7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.

9 And at my command the heavens are opened and are shut; and at my word the earth shall shake; and at my command the inhabitants thereof shall pass away, even so as by fire.

10 And he that believeth not my words believeth not my disciples; and if it so be that I do not speak, judge ye; for ye shall know that it is I that speaketh, at the last day.

11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.

12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel...

The LoF were written for the same purpose that Moses sought diligently to sanctify his people (D&C 84).

26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.

28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

When ALL the people are prophets, they will know the covenant made to their fathers. They will know because they will have stood face to face with the Lord as the bro of Jared. They will have been made partakers of His heavenly gift (4 Nephi 1:3, Ether 12:8, Hebrews 6:4). They will have been redeemed from the Fall. They will be Zion.

D&C 84:23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also...

Most don't believe. They don't want to believe. They don't want to sacrifice. They will not obey the words of the Lord as given to Moroni in Ether 4. That stuff is only for "extremists" and "fanatics." There is nothing left for me to write.

Actually marc, you have been a good example for me. You helped me see the fulness that is in the Book of Mormon, thank you for sharing what you have. I don't expect you to share sacred information but I do like your thoughts on the fulness.

I agree with you that most don't understand or don't want to believe. When you share your threads, I enjoy them and try to help (except maybe this thread). Posters here seem more interested in politics, weird stuff and future predicting.

With your background, I know that the LoF open up to you. While I may have a different opinion on some things, if the LoF are a benefit to a person that is great. I don't believe the LoF are a reason to leave the Church.

The way I see it, it seems that you object to the LoF based on irrelevant criteria, or prejudices.

First, some people perceive and believe that the Book of Mormon contains errors, is anachronistic, has contradictions, and that it reflects a Protestant understanding of God, or even an Trinitarian view of God. Some people have objected to the Book of Mormon saying such things, and I paraphrase, "The BoM reflects Joseph's early beliefs on God and is heavily influenced by Joseph Smith's Protestant background. It isn't until later in the D&C that Joseph starts to believe in a God that is objectionable to Protestants and Catholics." Some people believe that Joseph Smith plagiarized the BoM or that it was mostly written by Sydney Rigdon. You would agree that these people are in error and they misunderstand the BoM and what it says. You are making an equivalent type of argument against the LoF and just as these objections and arguments against the BoM are irrelevant because they come from a place of misunderstanding and disbelief, so in the same way your objections to the LoF come from a place of misunderstanding and disbelief and are irrelevant.

Second, if the words are inspired and come from the Holy Ghost, then the mortal who actually penned the words or wrote them down is irrelevant. This is true for the BoM as well and any other true scripture. You make no objections to the BoM because of who the mortal "author" might be because you believe the BoM is from God. You object to the LoF and you make a big issue of the mortal author because you disbelieve the LoF. In the end, your argument of authorship is irrelevant and further from a rational standpoint you are supporting your disbelief and objection to the LoF because of authorship based on a faulty paper written by Noel Reynolds. To do such a thing is fallacious and logically/rationally weak. You will be surprised to find out that many people believe in the LoF not because they believe Joseph Smith wrote them, but because they believe the Spirit wrote them. A witness of truth and what constitutes truth is not contingent or reliant upon the mortal author, but rather upon the Holy Ghost.

Third, many people have left the Church because of the Book of Mormon, because of the supposed errors that exist in it, contradictions, anachronisms, etc. as I mentioned earlier. How is this relevant to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon? It isn't. It is no more relevant when you apply your argument to the LoF. Who cares if people have left the Church on account of the LoF? Does that make them untrue? Should you object to them prejudicially based on this fact? Of course not. That would be irrational.

The LoF don't contain any errors on who God and the Godhead is. It is in line with everything else that has been revealed in the BoM and with the D&C. I'm a faithful member of the Church (although unorthodox), I sustain the leaders of the Church, and have a testimony through the Spirit that Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet of Jesus Christ and yet I still believe that the Church made a mistake in removing them. I think they were removed because people did not seek to understand them by the power of the Holy Ghost. I'm OK with errors existing in the Church and mistakes being done by those who are in authority in the Church. It doesn't phase me and my testimony because I know that fallible mortals are prone to error and that is what I expect.

The Spirit has witnessed to me (the Good Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit) that the LoF are from God and they are inspired. Billy Joe the bastard son of a clown (fictional character; any resemblance to a real person is pure coincidence) could have penned the words down, I don't care, because the true author, just like with the BoM, is the Spirit.

-Finrock