Marriage - don't know how to find spouse

[WhereCanITurn4Peace]

Just as Elizabeth is free to believe as she wishes, there are those who are free to believe what she espouses is racist and/or derogatory. She has no qualms stating her views (over and over, I might add) here, so it should come as no surprise that others will have differing opinions and will debate what she so unashamedly posts. There's no evidence of "bullying" her...what I observe is surprise, indignation or questioning.

As other posters have mentioned, there is a big difference between preferring and associating with your "own kind" as opposed to thinking your own race is above all the rest.

Let's not play silly word games of is she or isn't she racist. She clearly is and has the right to be if she wants...and if she expresses these views then there will be the consequence of those who have a rebuttal or two of their own.

Dictionary.com definition of racist:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

[David13]

The issue here I think is that some are excluding groups of persons from possible marriage on race alone, not considering any other conditions. Personally I would rather see a mixed race marriage were the couple share common values, religion and such while respecting the ethnicity of the other partner than one in which they are of the same race but have differing values. I would rather have a couple married in the temple, sharing the same belief system than I would care about their racial backgrounds.

There is a subtext in all of this I would like to approach. It seems to me that society and the membership of the church are more accepting of interracial marriages when the boy is white and the girl is of another race. I wonder why this would be the case? I also wonder if this dynamic is shaping Elizabeth's views in all of this? This is after all her daughter we are speaking of here so any mixed race marriage would involve her marrying a man of a different race. In any event this dynamic which seems to extend well beyond the church is to me an interesting one and worthy of some consideration.

gk
First, values stem from culture. And race to an extreme extent identifies culture. And thus if you want matching or close values, you will stay within your race and culture. Did you marry out of your race and culture? You see, sometimes no one practices what they preach. In other words, the preaching is for other people, not the preacher.
Second, I have never seen nor known of the dynamic of which you post in your second paragraph. But I have seen many interracial marriages fail, fast, too. Could it be because of the dynamic of values too far apart, coming from different races and cultures?
I do believe it and why is Elizabeth the only one who recognizes it? Why set a marriage up for failure from the get go? Why not take the better odds. Isn't that what you did in your marriage?
dc

[David13]

So what you are saying is, because you did not marry a person of a different race than yourself, you are a racist.
That is just total nonsense.
And also I think it very inappropriate that you would attempt to bully Elizabeth.
dc

That's actually the exact opposite of what I said. And there's no bullying, I asked a simple question. And for what it's worth, you and she are free to believe whatever you want, even if you want to be a racist.

Since "racist" is today an empty politically motivated epithet, it hardly bothers me for you to, in your misguided understanding of the term, call me such. So your attempt to bully me into accepting your erroneous understanding fails.
Yes we are free to hold our beliefs, without regard to your name calling.

But, answer the question: Did you marry outside your race and culture? Or, do you practice what you preach.
dc

[David13]

Thankfully, none of my family are race traitors.

I can assure you that someplace at some point in your family’s past there are persons of differing races. That is true of every person on this earth. You, me, everyone on LDSFF, everyone. There is not a single person of “pure blood”.

Well then you have never experienced the "Mexican Culture" of Los Angeles. They are constantly harping about "puro meh he cahn oh" which they purport to be, "e ho day Xochimilco." And of course they would only ever date and marry another of the same pure blood of which they purport.

Yes, it's nonsense, there is no more mixed "race" (Mexican is actually not a race, but a country of origin) than Mexican.
But I do believe you may well find quite a few far more "pure" types such as Norwegian, Swedes, Finns, etc. They have spent a lot of time in those locations without too many foreign "invaders" until recent years.
dc

[Fiannan]

Claim a person is racist for preferring to date people of their own race if you like but there are probably male bigots on this board who would not date a woman who was born a man:

http://newbostonpost.com/2017/07/06/are ... en-bigots/

All I can say is that you better repent.

[h_p]

Since "racist" is today an empty politically motivated epithet, it hardly bothers me for you to, in your misguided understanding of the term, call me such. So your attempt to bully me into accepting your erroneous understanding fails.
Yes we are free to hold our beliefs, without regard to your name calling.

But, answer the question: Did you marry outside your race and culture? Or, do you practice what you preach.
dc

I've already defined what I consider racist in a previous post to this thread, and I didn't call you a racist; I called Elizabeth one. Try to keep up. You seem to have a hard time with reading comprehension, so I don't know what good it'll do to respond to your question, but I'll happily answer: yes, I did marry outside my race. And somewhat outside my culture. We're going on 25 years now, and our relationship is stronger than it has ever been.

I'll say it again in case you're already confused: I don't think there's anything wrong with people preferring their own race, or preferring any other race. But you ("you" in general, not "you" in particular, in case you think I'm bullying again) cross a line when you call people who do a race traitor, or require someone to marry within their race.

If humans were dogs, we'd all practically be the same breed. People who are racist make way too big a deal of someone's skin color.

[djinwa]

To the OP, you might want to plan on being single. Marriage is becoming more and more risky for men.

Feminism, which affects the church, indoctrinates women to believe men are oppressive and abusive and instills the victim mentality. Soon her husband doesn't look so good, and she assumes she can do better. Which leads to divorce.

Most divorces are initiated by women, and then they have the advantage in divorce court, getting money and custody. Millions of men have had their lives ruined, and with the internet, more young men are opting out.

Men are regularly told of their deficiencies, so why would they want to burden a woman? And they aren't really needed any more, as women can earn their own money.

There was once a tradeoff of power in marriage - sex for money. Now that women can get their own money, men can't trade it for sex.

A study found on a dating site that on average, women thought they were better than 80% of the guys on there. So they supposedly have to "settle". Rarely hear of guys having to settle - all the women are just sweet, beautiful angels, apparently.

http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc ... ner-abuse/

"SUMMARY: According to a 2010 national survey by the Centers for Disease Control and Department of Justice, in the last 12 months more men than women were victims of intimate partner physical violence and over 40% of severe physical violence was directed at men. Men were also more often the victim of psychological aggression and control over sexual or reproductive health. Despite this, few services are available to male victims of intimate partner violence."

[Spaced_Out]

To the OP, you might want to plan on being single. Marriage is becoming more and more risky for men.,,,,,,

That is another issue and has been discussed extensively already. II does have relevance at to the huge gender gap in the Church and why many will not have opportunity to get married. Also why my advice is to become independent financially is the way to go for women and not look to marriage to get out of bad situations or to make them happy.

The other day I was reading comments on a survivalist/prepper YouTube site, The one woman posted where are all the real men, another woman answered they are either taken or have been disillusioned by having being previously partnered with a feminist and are no longer available. The gender gap in the church is only widening.
Perhaps the starter of the thread has some opportunity as a few guys might look elsewhere for a partner. There are a few things with the person that started this thread that confuses me...but so be it.

[Fiannan]

The gender gap in the church is only widening.

Men are regularly told of their deficiencies, so why would they want to burden a woman?

I personally believe that there are plenty of good single women in the Church. However, women tend to form an ideal of men based on thier father; but sometimes the ideal can shift onto leaders of the Church. These are particularly dangerous women, in fact I would prefer to date a feminist over such a woman. You see, the feminist may be a bit off on ideology but you will never measure up to the ideal the other woman has. Maybe that is why I caution my sons to look for women in the Church who are devout but also are willing to question something before they adopt the teaching in their lives - and also pray about it.

[Spaced_Out]

The gender gap in the church is only widening.

Men are regularly told of their deficiencies, so why would they want to burden a woman?

I personally believe that there are plenty of good single women in the Church. However, women tend to form an ideal of men based on thier father; but sometimes the ideal can shift onto leaders of the Church. These are particularly dangerous women, in fact I would prefer to date a feminist over such a woman. You see, the feminist may be a bit off on ideology but you will never measure up to the ideal the other woman has. Maybe that is why I caution my sons to look for women in the Church who are devout but also are willing to question something before they adopt the teaching in their lives - and also pray about it.

I think you missed the point, it is the men who are not good enough and unable to live up the the required standards and most figure that out while still in the youth programs so by the time they progress in age to YSA the gender gap is like ?? only guessing 5:1 female to male. One would think all those lovely confident and independent woman would attract or keep the male species in the church - but there is a major failure somewhere. Also a lot males have no interest in marriage where the woman have a strong focus on marriage.

It is a serous issue that can no longer be glossed over. Employment stability, cost of housing and pornography is also a contributing causes, but there are deeper underlying problems. This discussion is now well outside of the thread and has been extensively discussed before.

[Fiannan]

I think you missed the point, it is the men who are not good enough and unable to live up the the required standards and most figure that out while still in the youth programs...

No, the females have thier issues and the males have their's. Problem in that in our Church the leadership is more than willing to chastize the males while they live in the illusion that girls are still "sugar and spice and everything nice." Oh, by the way, males who are young and believe that way generally don't do so well in the dating scene while males who live under no such delusions for some reason are quite popular with the ladies.

[Spaced_Out]

I think you missed the point, it is the men who are not good enough and unable to live up the the required standards and most figure that out while still in the youth programs...

No, the females have thier issues and the males have their's. Problem in that in our Church the leadership is more than willing to chastize the males while they live in the illusion that girls are still "sugar and spice and everything nice." Oh, by the way, males who are young and believe that way generally don't do so well in the dating scene while males who live under no such delusions for some reason are quite popular with the ladies.

So the ever widening gender gap is simply due to males being chastised by PH leaders, and chased out the church. That should be a simple correction one would think.

[Gage]

I think you missed the point, it is the men who are not good enough and unable to live up the the required standards and most figure that out while still in the youth programs...

No, the females have thier issues and the males have their's. Problem in that in our Church the leadership is more than willing to chastize the males while they live in the illusion that girls are still "sugar and spice and everything nice." Oh, by the way, males who are young and believe that way generally don't do so well in the dating scene while males who live under no such delusions for some reason are quite popular with the ladies.

Yep if most Bishops only knew what many of the young LDS women were doing. I dont know if they just dont want to see it or believe it or they really think they are innocent and pure. A young woman that is having premarital sex can answer no she is not when asked the question by the Bishop and I can assure you there is no gift of discernment, he simply smiles in agreement. Bishops think the girls are innocent, because most lie about what they are doing and they cannot see through the lies, or dont try to see it. I think they are hesitant to say anything, not with males, heck I have been asked questions in my youth and be telling the truth and the Bishop ask me if I was sure I was telling the truth. I have seen an instance where a young lady was told on and the Bishop still would not believe it was happening.

[Spaced_Out]

I think you missed the point, it is the men who are not good enough and unable to live up the the required standards and most figure that out while still in the youth programs...

No, the females have thier issues and the males have their's. Problem in that in our Church the leadership is more than willing to chastize the males while they live in the illusion that girls are still "sugar and spice and everything nice." Oh, by the way, males who are young and believe that way generally don't do so well in the dating scene while males who live under no such delusions for some reason are quite popular with the ladies.

Yep if most Bishops only knew what many of the young LDS women were doing. I dont know if they just dont want to see it or believe it or they really think they are innocent and pure. A young woman that is having premarital sex can answer no she is not when asked the question by the Bishop and I can assure you there is no gift of discernment, he simply smiles in agreement. Bishops think the girls are innocent, because most lie about what they are doing and they cannot see through the lies, or dont try to see it. I think they are hesitant to say anything, not with males, heck I have been asked questions in my youth and be telling the truth and the Bishop ask me if I was sure I was telling the truth. I have seen an instance where a young lady was told on and the Bishop still would not believe it was happening.

People who do not live the gospel or keep the commandments end up drifting away from the church irrespective of what the bishop does. So the gender gap is unworthy sisters attending church, where the unworthy males leave. Not true, I have been a Bishop and twice a branch president, and very many times as councilor.

[Fiannan]

People who do not live the gospel or keep the commandments end up drifting away from the church irrespective of what the bishop does. So the gender gap is unworthy sisters attending church, where the unworthy males leave. Not true, I have been a Bishop and twice a branch president, and very many times as councilor.

When was the last GC Relief Society society talk in which women were told they were lucky to have the husband they have, and that they should see his happiness as the measure of their success?

[brianj]

The issue here I think is that some are excluding groups of persons from possible marriage on race alone, not considering any other conditions. Personally I would rather see a mixed race marriage were the couple share common values, religion and such while respecting the ethnicity of the other partner than one in which they are of the same race but have differing values. I would rather have a couple married in the temple, sharing the same belief system than I would care about their racial backgrounds.

I married in the temple. My ancestry, as far back as I can research, is entirely European and Scandinavian. She refused to seriously perform family history research, but what little I do know convinces me her ancestry is mostly, if not entirely, Hakka - which are Han Chinese from Hakka speaking provinces.

She professed a strong testimony and deep desire to do what is right, but shortly after we married she made it clear that, like her contemporary ancestors, she would never submit to her husband or respect him as an authority in the family. Throughout the marriage it became increasingly clear that she placed a greater value on cultural traditions than contradicting religious teachings.

Though not a universal constant, people of different races tend to have different cultures. While they mesh well for some couples, they lead to conflict for many other couples. I know more couples than I care to count that were married for time and eternity but their marriage was torn apart in large measure due to cultural conflicts.

On the subject of children, I have observed that my two children deal with a lot of struggles and difficulty that arises from a mixed race parentage.

I wonder if people here think my unwillingness to date outside my culture and race, based on my experiences, means that I am a racist who should resign his church membership.

[Silver]

Here's my favorite James E. Faust quote ever:

"I have learned to admire, respect, and love the good people from every race, culture, and nation that I have been privileged to visit. In my experience, no race or class seems superior to any other in spirituality and faithfulness. Those who seem less caring spiritually are those individuals—regardless of race, culture, or nationality—spoken of by the Savior in the parable of the sower who are “choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.” (close quote)

So, racists, you can repent now, or repent later of your racist tendencies. However, I assure you that you will eventually repent of them.

To Elder Faust's testimony we can add Elder Cook's:
"Anyone who claims superiority under the Father’s plan because of characteristics like race, sex, nationality, language, or economic circumstances," said Elder Quentin L. Cook of the Quorum of the Twelve, "is morally wrong and does not understand the Lord’s true purpose for all of our Father’s children."

Elder Cook cautioned against pride and arrogance and drew a distinction between humility and a modern use of the term "authentic."
Source: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865 ... rnoon.html

[David13]

Here's my favorite James E. Faust quote ever:

"I have learned to admire, respect, and love the good people from every race, culture, and nation that I have been privileged to visit. In my experience, no race or class seems superior to any other in spirituality and faithfulness. Those who seem less caring spiritually are those individuals—regardless of race, culture, or nationality—spoken of by the Savior in the parable of the sower who are “choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.” (close quote)

So, racists, you can repent now, or repent later of your racist tendencies. However, I assure you that you will eventually repent of them.

To Elder Faust's testimony we can add Elder Cook's:
"Anyone who claims superiority under the Father’s plan because of characteristics like race, sex, nationality, language, or economic circumstances," said Elder Quentin L. Cook of the Quorum of the Twelve, "is morally wrong and does not understand the Lord’s true purpose for all of our Father’s children."

Elder Cook cautioned against pride and arrogance and drew a distinction between humility and a modern use of the term "authentic."
Source: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865 ... rnoon.html

To quote a phrase "there you go again."

Just because someone understands what can so easily go wrong in a marriage like that mentioned above by brianj does not mean they are declaring "superiority". They are declaring differences, glaring irreconcilable differences that warn, or compel against these marriages. You perhaps do not know that the basis for divorce (dissolution of marriage - under California law) is ... irreconcilable differences.

To say that some of us have no intention of entering into a marriage, or do not want our daughter to enter into a marriage with the seed, no the actual basis for divorce in it is not racism, but just ordinary common sense. A rare thing indeed today, oh, and I suppose not "politically correct" crime of all crimes today.
dc

[Silver]

Here's my favorite James E. Faust quote ever:

"I have learned to admire, respect, and love the good people from every race, culture, and nation that I have been privileged to visit. In my experience, no race or class seems superior to any other in spirituality and faithfulness. Those who seem less caring spiritually are those individuals—regardless of race, culture, or nationality—spoken of by the Savior in the parable of the sower who are “choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.” (close quote)

So, racists, you can repent now, or repent later of your racist tendencies. However, I assure you that you will eventually repent of them.

To Elder Faust's testimony we can add Elder Cook's:
"Anyone who claims superiority under the Father’s plan because of characteristics like race, sex, nationality, language, or economic circumstances," said Elder Quentin L. Cook of the Quorum of the Twelve, "is morally wrong and does not understand the Lord’s true purpose for all of our Father’s children."

Elder Cook cautioned against pride and arrogance and drew a distinction between humility and a modern use of the term "authentic."
Source: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865 ... rnoon.html

To quote a phrase "there you go again."

Just because someone understands what can so easily go wrong in a marriage like that mentioned above by brianj does not mean they are declaring "superiority". They are declaring differences, glaring irreconcilable differences that warn, or compel against these marriages. You perhaps do not know that the basis for divorce (dissolution of marriage - under California law) is ... irreconcilable differences.

To say that some of us have no intention of entering into a marriage, or do not want our daughter to enter into a marriage with the seed, no the actual basis for divorce in it is not racism, but just ordinary common sense. A rare thing indeed today, oh, and I suppose not "politically correct" crime of all crimes today.
dc

Says the man who is arguing with General Authorities and not with Silver.

[h_p]

Just because someone understands what can so easily go wrong in a marriage like that mentioned above by brianj does not mean they are declaring "superiority".

People who understand that don't call people in interracial marriages "race traitors."

[Fiannan]

Just because someone understands what can so easily go wrong in a marriage like that mentioned above by brianj does not mean they are declaring "superiority".

People who understand that don't call people in interracial marriages "race traitors."

Yet can we say there is not a basis for their ideas rooted in prophetic statements? Just asking.

[David13]

Here's my favorite James E. Faust quote ever:

"I have learned to admire, respect, and love the good people from every race, culture, and nation that I have been privileged to visit. In my experience, no race or class seems superior to any other in spirituality and faithfulness. Those who seem less caring spiritually are those individuals—regardless of race, culture, or nationality—spoken of by the Savior in the parable of the sower who are “choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.” (close quote)

So, racists, you can repent now, or repent later of your racist tendencies. However, I assure you that you will eventually repent of them.

To Elder Faust's testimony we can add Elder Cook's:
"Anyone who claims superiority under the Father’s plan because of characteristics like race, sex, nationality, language, or economic circumstances," said Elder Quentin L. Cook of the Quorum of the Twelve, "is morally wrong and does not understand the Lord’s true purpose for all of our Father’s children."

Elder Cook cautioned against pride and arrogance and drew a distinction between humility and a modern use of the term "authentic."
Source: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865 ... rnoon.html

To quote a phrase "there you go again."

Just because someone understands what can so easily go wrong in a marriage like that mentioned above by brianj does not mean they are declaring "superiority". They are declaring differences, glaring irreconcilable differences that warn, or compel against these marriages. You perhaps do not know that the basis for divorce (dissolution of marriage - under California law) is ... irreconcilable differences.

To say that some of us have no intention of entering into a marriage, or do not want our daughter to enter into a marriage with the seed, no the actual basis for divorce in it is not racism, but just ordinary common sense. A rare thing indeed today, oh, and I suppose not "politically correct" crime of all crimes today.
dc

Says the man who is arguing with General Authorities and not with Silver.

You can't seem to get anything right, can you?
dc

[David13]

The issue here I think is that some are excluding groups of persons from possible marriage on race alone, not considering any other conditions. Personally I would rather see a mixed race marriage were the couple share common values, religion and such while respecting the ethnicity of the other partner than one in which they are of the same race but have differing values. I would rather have a couple married in the temple, sharing the same belief system than I would care about their racial backgrounds.

I married in the temple. My ancestry, as far back as I can research, is entirely European and Scandinavian. She refused to seriously perform family history research, but what little I do know convinces me her ancestry is mostly, if not entirely, Hakka - which are Han Chinese from Hakka speaking provinces.

She professed a strong testimony and deep desire to do what is right, but shortly after we married she made it clear that, like her contemporary ancestors, she would never submit to her husband or respect him as an authority in the family. Throughout the marriage it became increasingly clear that she placed a greater value on cultural traditions than contradicting religious teachings.

Though not a universal constant, people of different races tend to have different cultures. While they mesh well for some couples, they lead to conflict for many other couples. I know more couples than I care to count that were married for time and eternity but their marriage was torn apart in large measure due to cultural conflicts.

On the subject of children, I have observed that my two children deal with a lot of struggles and difficulty that arises from a mixed race parentage.

I wonder if people here think my unwillingness to date outside my culture and race, based on my experiences, means that I am a racist who should resign his church membership.

I certainly understand that you are not a racist. And that you should not resign your church membership. It's unfortunate you had to learn a simple truth the hard way. You have to forgive yourself.
Your church membership is the most important thing you have, for yourself and your children.
You just have to ignore the politically correct lynch mob that may make false accusations against you.
And better luck the second time around.
dc

[Silver]

To Elder Faust's testimony we can add Elder Cook's:
"Anyone who claims superiority under the Father’s plan because of characteristics like race, sex, nationality, language, or economic circumstances," said Elder Quentin L. Cook of the Quorum of the Twelve, "is morally wrong and does not understand the Lord’s true purpose for all of our Father’s children."

Elder Cook cautioned against pride and arrogance and drew a distinction between humility and a modern use of the term "authentic."
Source: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865 ... rnoon.html

To quote a phrase "there you go again."

Just because someone understands what can so easily go wrong in a marriage like that mentioned above by brianj does not mean they are declaring "superiority". They are declaring differences, glaring irreconcilable differences that warn, or compel against these marriages. You perhaps do not know that the basis for divorce (dissolution of marriage - under California law) is ... irreconcilable differences.

To say that some of us have no intention of entering into a marriage, or do not want our daughter to enter into a marriage with the seed, no the actual basis for divorce in it is not racism, but just ordinary common sense. A rare thing indeed today, oh, and I suppose not "politically correct" crime of all crimes today.
dc

Says the man who is arguing with General Authorities and not with Silver.

You can't seem to get anything right, can you?
dc

Bwahahaha. At least Elizabeth, the Master Racist, is on your side as evidenced by her thanking your post. Elizabeth of "Race Traitor" fame. What a great couple you two make.

[Fiannan]

Bwahahaha. At least Elizabeth, the Master Racist, is on your side as evidenced by her thanking your post. Elizabeth of "Race Traitor" fame. What a great couple you two make.

I enjoy a good round of debate but seriously Silver what is your objective, just being contrary or aren't you getting enough attention from your parents?