The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

[LoveIsTruth]

Everyone, I just realized something interesting:

The false idea that "there was no other way for Adam" that was started by the devil, and that so many still believe, is directly derived from the false idea that Adam is greater than Jesus.

One follows the other. Both are false.

One "Adam greater than Jesus" nonsense has been officially denounced by the Church in 1976 through Spencer W. Kimball; the other that "there was no other way" for Adam but to partake, contrary to God's commandment, still lingers, but it too will fall, just as sure as the first falsehood fell!

Truth is unconquerable. All will learn this. All.

He who has ears to hear let him hear.

[LoveIsTruth]

So, I wonder who the next Christ is.

I think it is obvious. The next Christ is the Holy Ghost, the third member of the Godhead. And the next Father is Christ.

[LoveIsTruth]

The Title given Michael(Adam), the archangel (king resurrected being) proves who he is. And D&C 129 is supporting evidence that he was a resurrected being of flesh and bones while Christ (before the Atonement) was a being of spirit body.

No disharmony here. Yet it goes ignored.

Can a resurrected body die? I hope you agree that it cannot. Yet the scripture says:

"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." (Gen. 5:5) And in another place it says that if Adam did NOT die, it would make God a liar: "And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die." (Alma 12:23)

Thus unless you throw away the Scriptures, or call God a liar, you have an irrefutable proof that Adam did die, which directly contradicts what you are saying, because resurrected bodies CANNOT die.

Secondly, Adam was called Michael, the archangel even before his resurrection, just like Jesus, who is Jehovah, was called the God of Israel and the God of the whole earth, even before he was born. You have to agree that Jesus (Jehovah) was a God even BEFORE his birth, for scriptures tell us that much. And so is the Holy Ghost a God, even though he does not yet have a body. So if being a God is accurate for people before they are even born, why being an archangel is not accurate for Adam BEFORE his resurrection? It is. So calling Adam archangel does not mean he was already resurrected. It is a title he had even BEFORE God put into him the breath of life and gave him a body.

Thirdly, after the resurrection, many of those who are not gods will also be called angels. "For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever."(D&C 132:17) So having a body, or even a resurrected body, does not make you greater in intelligence and authority than Jehovah, the God of the whole earth, who was so even BEFORE his birth and resurrection.

Cain will also be resurrected, but he is not greater than Jehovah in intelligence and authority before or after Jehovah's birth.

"And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory." ( D&C 88:24 )

"And they who remain shall also be quickened [resurrected]; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." ( D&C 88:32 )

So your logic that resurrection somehow makes one spirit greater in intelligence and authority than another is wrong, because if that were true, then resurrected Cain, who will go to outer darkness after his resurrection, will be greater in intelligence and authority than the God of Israel, Jehovah, before He was born, which I hope you agree is utter lunacy!

So your logic and reasoning are fundamentally broken on this point, my friend.

The only question remains, are you man enough to admit that your were wrong?

But whether you do or not, it does not change the truth that Jesus, before and after his resurrection, was greater than Adam in intelligence and authority, and that Jesus redeemed (and resurrected) Adam, and not the other way around!

[LoveIsTruth]

Brigham, the best man to teach the true nature of God, told us that much of the Garden story is a hollow toad stool story, a fable designed to hide more than it teaches. A story to satisfy but not to teach enough to condemn.

Most of the scriptures you contradict about Adam and the Garden are modern day revelations received through and recorded by Joseph himself. What you are saying contradicts: The Book Of Mormon, The Book of Moses in the Perle of Great Price, and the D&C, all received by revelation through Joseph himself.

So your statement about thousand year old, and therefore supposedly irrelevant scriptures is totally wrong. Why? Because it was given by God anew (He could have given anything else) in THIS dispensation for OUR day, through a modern-day Prophet of God, through a proper channel of unanimous consent of the authorities of the church, which God himself appointed.

"Adam greater than Jesus" garbage violates that channel, because that doctrine was officially condemned in 1976 by Spencer W. Kimball, a prophet for the Church. And more importantly it contradicts reason and the revealed word of God.

And besides, you have to agree, that canonized modern day scripture received by revelation of God has more weight than un-canonized, and officially condemned by a Prophet in 1976, personal opinions of earlier prophets at odds with reason and with the revealed word of God.

Joseph taught you this. But you do not believe him.

Moreover you are incapable of answering questions because it quickly collapses the entire house of cards you promote.

> Did Adam die after the fall?

> What about point by point refutation of your analysis of D&C 129 I gave you in the previous post?

No answer? Of course not. Because you CANNOT answer anything except "Brigham and Joseph said it." Yet it is in direct contradiction of what the scriptures and reason say.

It is not enough to say "Joseph or Brigham said it." Let's agree on that at least! Why? Because Joseph himself said it is NOT enough.

What is enough? Proof by reason based on revealed word of God, including that in, and in harmony with, canonized scriptures of this Church.

> Can we agree at least on that?

Thanks.

Unless you missed it ">" means a specific question. And if you cannot, or do not answer them, it proves my point that you CANNOT answer them without collapsing the whole house of cards you cling to.

[LoveIsTruth]

Here is another great way to prove that Jesus is over Adam:

It is a 3 step proof:

Step 1: Adam (Michael) is not the Most High:
"saith the Lord God, the Holy One of Zion, who hath established the foundations of Adam-ondi-Ahman;
Who hath appointed Michael your prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the Holy One, who is without beginning of days or end of life." ( D&C 78:15,16 )

Step 2: Jesus is the Son of the Most High:
And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired. (1 Nephi 11:6 )

Step 3: Therefore Jesus is NOT the direct son of Adam, and Adam is NOT the direct Father of Jesus.

Done.

This should put an end to this lunacy!

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Here is another great way to prove that Jesus is over Adam:

It is a 3 step proof:

Step 1: Adam (Michael) is not the Most High:
"saith the Lord God, the Holy One of Zion, who hath established the foundations of Adam-ondi-Ahman;
Who hath appointed Michael your prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the Holy One, who is without beginning of days or end of life." ( D&C 78:15,16 )

Step 2: Jesus is the Son of the Most High:
And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired. (1 Nephi 11:6 )

Step 3: Therefore Jesus is NOT the direct son of Adam, and Adam is NOT the direct Father of Jesus.

Done.

This should put an end to this lunacy!

And there is the problem, you do not understand what you have quoted.
none of the figures mentioned in D&C 78:15,16 are Jesus Christ, until you know who they are, you can not understand the verses.

And in (1 Nephi 11:6 ) the two figures are the most high and the son of the most high, Christ is clearly the son of the most high and that puts him subordinate to whoever the most high is.

It is amazing, those who refuse to read and accept the writings of the prophets of the restoration are so ill equipped to argue against their teachings as though the prophets only understood the scriptures as poorly as they do, go figure.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Why would someone want to even try to disprove these statements is puzzeling!

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God. Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

They are simple, direct, determinate and short. They provide multiple witnesses to the same doctrine.
One would have to be ignorant of the English language to misunderstand what they say.
Yet they are denied. It is as though they don't want to know and understand, ether that or they follow after the
spirit of Zeezrom.

But I am understanding why the say the prophets are not in harmony with the cannon of scripture, because they understand neither.

[LoveIsTruth]

Here is another great way to prove that Jesus is over Adam:

It is a 3 step proof:

Step 1: Adam (Michael) is not the Most High:
"saith the Lord God, the Holy One of Zion, who hath established the foundations of Adam-ondi-Ahman;
Who hath appointed Michael your prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the Holy One, who is without beginning of days or end of life." ( D&C 78:15,16 )

Step 2: Jesus is the Son of the Most High:
And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired. (1 Nephi 11:6 )

Step 3: Therefore Jesus is NOT the direct son of Adam, and Adam is NOT the direct Father of Jesus.

Done.

This should put an end to this lunacy!

And there is the problem, you do not understand what you have quoted.
none of the figures mentioned in D&C 78:15,16 are Jesus Christ, until you know who they are, you can not understand the verses.

The only purpose of me quoting D&C 78:15,16 was to prove that Michael is NOT the Most High. And it clearly proves that point, because by definition, the Most High would not be "under the counsel" of anyone like Michael is. So Step 1 stands proven.

And in (1 Nephi 11:6 ) the two figures are the most high and the son of the most high, Christ is clearly the son of the most high and that puts him subordinate to whoever the most high is.

Yes. And in step 1 we established that Adam is NOT the Most High. Therefore Steps (2) and (3) still hold, which proves my point.

Besides, anyone who have seen the endowment knows that the Most High is the Father Elohim. Not Adam!

[LoveIsTruth]

Why would someone want to even try to disprove these statements is puzzeling!

There is nothing puzzling there. I am disproving your interpretation of these statements (that Adam is the immediate Father of Jesus), because it is self-contradictory, and because it contradicts the scriptures and the words of God in multiple points, rendering God a liar.

I ask you again Did Adam die? Because if he did, he cannot possibly be the Most High whose life is without beginning of days or end of years.
If Adam died, he cannot therefore possibly be the immediate Father of Jesus Christ.

And to say that Adam did not die, is to make God a liar according to:
"And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die." (Alma 12:23)

So the interpretation you promote makes God a liar. And this is why Spencer W. Kimball declared this interpretation false doctrine in 1976.

That's why I am disproving it. and there is nothing puzzling about it! It would be puzzling if I didn't!

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Why would someone want to even try to disprove these statements is puzzeling!

There is nothing puzzling there. I am disproving your interpretation of these statements (that Adam is the immediate Father of Jesus), because it is self-contradictory, and because it contradicts the scriptures and the words of God in multiple points, rendering God a liar.

I ask you again Did Adam die? Because if he did, he cannot possibly be the Most High whose life is without beginning of days or end of years.
If Adam died, he cannot therefore possibly be the immediate Father of Jesus Christ.

And to say that Adam did not die, is to make God a liar according to:
"And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die." (Alma 12:23)

So the interpretation you promote makes God a liar. And this is why Spencer W. Kimball declared this interpretation false doctrine in 1976.

That's why I am disproving it. and there is nothing puzzling about it! It would be puzzling if I didn't!

So you are claiming that all error in the scriptures are actually God lying rather than humans making mistakes or purposely changing meaning. Is that really what you are saying.


So was God lying when he withdrew the Gospel and The Priesthood from among the people and gave them the lay of Moses to replace it.
was Christ lying when he taught with parable so those that can see can see and those that can not see can not see.


Do you really believe that you know the scriptures better that Joseph and Brigham and they are just lying when they say

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

Is Pres. Kimbal also lying when he says

A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow blood, the life-giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal, subject to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there, a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in a remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegrate and cause trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render it immortal.
Ensign Sept. 1978 First Presidency Message Absolute Truth By President Spencer W. Kimball

I believe that Brigham never said anthing truer than

Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873 How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God

[freedomforall]

God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God

This is shear horse pucky. Adam is not God The Father nor has he ever been. He is one of "the" Gods that helped Christ form the earth, and he is Michael the Archangel, a Chief Prince, and our foremost Patriarch...that is all.

D&C107:56
56 And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation.

Adam

The name Adam is given to the first man of the human family on this earth as cited in the account of the Creation in the books of Genesis, Moses, and Abraham and in many instances in the New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. From these scriptures we learn that Adam is the father and patriarch of the human race on the earth. The aggregate of the scriptures certifies that his transgression in the garden of Eden, although designated as a “fall,” was necessary to the advancement and spiritual progress of humanity on this earth, and Adam rightly should be honored, not denigrated. Adam is the Ancient of Days and is also known as Michael. He is the archangel and will come again to the earth in power and glory as the patriarch of the human family preparatory to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Dan. 7:9–14; D&C 116; HC 3:385–87; 4:207–8).

From latter-day revelation we learn that Adam had a pure and perfect language that was both written and spoken (Moses 6:5–6); that he was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ (Moses 6:51–63); that he was baptized in water and received the Holy Ghost (Moses 6:64–68); and that he was visited personally by the Lord (D&C 107:55–56). Other references to Adam include Luke 3:38; Rom. 5:12–21; 1 Cor. 11:9; 15:20–22, 45–49; 1 Tim. 2:13; 2 Ne. 2:20–26; Mosiah 3:11, 16; D&C 29:34–44; 107:41–57; Moses 2–6. See also Eve; Fall of Adam and Eve.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God

This is shear horse pucky. Adam is not God The Father nor has he ever been. He is one of "the" Gods that helped Christ form the earth, and he is Michael the Archangel, a Chief Prince, and our foremost Patriarch...that is all.

D&C107:56
56 And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation.

Adam

The name Adam is given to the first man of the human family on this earth as cited in the account of the Creation in the books of Genesis, Moses, and Abraham and in many instances in the New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. From these scriptures we learn that Adam is the father and patriarch of the human race on the earth. The aggregate of the scriptures certifies that his transgression in the garden of Eden, although designated as a “fall,” was necessary to the advancement and spiritual progress of humanity on this earth, and Adam rightly should be honored, not denigrated. Adam is the Ancient of Days and is also known as Michael. He is the archangel and will come again to the earth in power and glory as the patriarch of the human family preparatory to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Dan. 7:9–14; D&C 116; HC 3:385–87; 4:207–8).

From latter-day revelation we learn that Adam had a pure and perfect language that was both written and spoken (Moses 6:5–6); that he was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ (Moses 6:51–63); that he was baptized in water and received the Holy Ghost (Moses 6:64–68); and that he was visited personally by the Lord (D&C 107:55–56). Other references to Adam include Luke 3:38; Rom. 5:12–21; 1 Cor. 11:9; 15:20–22, 45–49; 1 Tim. 2:13; 2 Ne. 2:20–26; Mosiah 3:11, 16; D&C 29:34–44; 107:41–57; Moses 2–6. See also Eve; Fall of Adam and Eve.

You deny Joseph Smith, one who knows the scripture better than anyone save Jesus?
The prophet of the restoration.
The key holder of the dispensation of the fullness of times.

If you knew the true identity of Joseph Smith, maybe you would then understand the peril in which you place your salvation. But since you do not know, mercy applies.

[freedomforall]

God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God

This is shear horse pucky. Adam is not God The Father nor has he ever been. He is one of "the" Gods that helped Christ form the earth, and he is Michael the Archangel, a Chief Prince, and our foremost Patriarch...that is all.

D&C107:56
56 And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation.

Adam

The name Adam is given to the first man of the human family on this earth as cited in the account of the Creation in the books of Genesis, Moses, and Abraham and in many instances in the New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. From these scriptures we learn that Adam is the father and patriarch of the human race on the earth. The aggregate of the scriptures certifies that his transgression in the garden of Eden, although designated as a “fall,” was necessary to the advancement and spiritual progress of humanity on this earth, and Adam rightly should be honored, not denigrated. Adam is the Ancient of Days and is also known as Michael. He is the archangel and will come again to the earth in power and glory as the patriarch of the human family preparatory to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Dan. 7:9–14; D&C 116; HC 3:385–87; 4:207–8).

From latter-day revelation we learn that Adam had a pure and perfect language that was both written and spoken (Moses 6:5–6); that he was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ (Moses 6:51–63); that he was baptized in water and received the Holy Ghost (Moses 6:64–68); and that he was visited personally by the Lord (D&C 107:55–56). Other references to Adam include Luke 3:38; Rom. 5:12–21; 1 Cor. 11:9; 15:20–22, 45–49; 1 Tim. 2:13; 2 Ne. 2:20–26; Mosiah 3:11, 16; D&C 29:34–44; 107:41–57; Moses 2–6. See also Eve; Fall of Adam and Eve.

You deny Joseph Smith, No, I never said I deny Joseph Smith. What I have said is I deny much of his teachings not born of revealed scripture. Big difference. See how you play word games to somehow imply that I am a reprobate?
The prophet of the restoration.
The key holder of the dispensation of the fullness of times.

If you knew the true identity of Joseph Smith, maybe you would then understand the peril in which you place your salvation. But since you do not know, mercy applies.

More horse pucky. I think you will say anything in order to invoke some kind of guilt trip, and using your own judging ways to make it stick. But guess what, this is a fruitless, worthless and ridiculous effort that means absolutely nothing. If today's prophet wanted us to make Joseph Smith an idol, they would quote him more often and tell us that everything he ever said is gospel truth. It saddens me to think you can be so gullible.

Apparently you make scripture fit Joseph's narrative instead of testing Joseph's words to see if they fit the narrative in scripture. Scripture trumps anyone. It is scripture that all these people you use as idols are supposed to relate their knowledge from.

I have to give you credit for being self-willed, head strong and just plain huffy when it comes to the knowledge and testimony of those who know better than to be taken in by this ridiculous doctrine known as the Adam-God doctrine.

As it has been pointed out to you by a variety of forum members how crazy this doctrine is, you just keep ignoring our point of view for yours, clearly a one sided conversation.

And I knew, I knew, all those questions you were asking me were a set up in an attempt to get me to accept your views. Well, guess what, it didn't work and cannot work because I know what is in scripture, so maybe it is you that does not understand. Maybe it is you that will find out the hard way and will have to repent. However, you won't know this until your last breath because your pride and judging nature will get in the way at every turn.

I'm sorry our conversation went south, but I refuse to be treated as dross so your pride can further the swelling of your head and increasing your level of importance. You could really do well to learn humility.

[LoveIsTruth]

...Do you really believe that you know the scriptures better that Joseph and Brigham ...

Irrelevant!

You still avoided my question: Did Adam die?

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God

This is shear horse pucky. Adam is not God The Father nor has he ever been. He is one of "the" Gods that helped Christ form the earth, and he is Michael the Archangel, a Chief Prince, and our foremost Patriarch...that is all.

D&C107:56
56 And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation.

Adam

The name Adam is given to the first man of the human family on this earth as cited in the account of the Creation in the books of Genesis, Moses, and Abraham and in many instances in the New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. From these scriptures we learn that Adam is the father and patriarch of the human race on the earth. The aggregate of the scriptures certifies that his transgression in the garden of Eden, although designated as a “fall,” was necessary to the advancement and spiritual progress of humanity on this earth, and Adam rightly should be honored, not denigrated. Adam is the Ancient of Days and is also known as Michael. He is the archangel and will come again to the earth in power and glory as the patriarch of the human family preparatory to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Dan. 7:9–14; D&C 116; HC 3:385–87; 4:207–8).

From latter-day revelation we learn that Adam had a pure and perfect language that was both written and spoken (Moses 6:5–6); that he was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ (Moses 6:51–63); that he was baptized in water and received the Holy Ghost (Moses 6:64–68); and that he was visited personally by the Lord (D&C 107:55–56). Other references to Adam include Luke 3:38; Rom. 5:12–21; 1 Cor. 11:9; 15:20–22, 45–49; 1 Tim. 2:13; 2 Ne. 2:20–26; Mosiah 3:11, 16; D&C 29:34–44; 107:41–57; Moses 2–6. See also Eve; Fall of Adam and Eve.

You deny Joseph Smith, No, I never said I deny Joseph Smith. What I have said is I deny much of his teachings not born of revealed scripture. Big difference. See how you play word games to somehow imply that I am a reprobate?
The prophet of the restoration.
The key holder of the dispensation of the fullness of times.

If you knew the true identity of Joseph Smith, maybe you would then understand the peril in which you place your salvation. But since you do not know, mercy applies.

More horse pucky. I think you will say anything in order to invoke some kind of guilt trip, and using your own judging ways to make it stick. But guess what, this is a fruitless, worthless and ridiculous effort that means absolutely nothing. If today's prophet wanted us to make Joseph Smith an idol, they would quote him more often and tell us that everything he ever said is gospel truth. It saddens me to think you can be so gullible.

Apparently you make scripture fit Joseph's narrative instead of testing Joseph's words to see if they fit the narrative in scripture. Scripture trumps anyone. It is scripture that all these people you use as idols are supposed to relate their knowledge from.

I have to give you credit for being self-willed, head strong and just plain huffy when it comes to the knowledge and testimony of those who know better than to be taken in by this ridiculous doctrine known as the Adam-God doctrine.

As it has been pointed out to you by a variety of forum members how crazy this doctrine is, you just keep ignoring our point of view for yours, clearly a one sided conversation.

And I knew, I knew, all those questions you were asking me were a set up in an attempt to get me to accept your views. Well, guess what, it didn't work and cannot work because I know what is in scripture, so maybe it is you that does not understand. Maybe it is you that will find out the hard way and will have to repent. However, you won't know this until your last breath because your pride and judging nature will get in the way at every turn.

I'm sorry our conversation went south, but I refuse to be treated as dross so your pride can further the swelling of your head and increasing your level of importance. You could really do well to learn humility.

I am not trying to get you to do anything. I have said more than once, I am OK if you don't believe it. And if it offends you so much, stop following the topic and don't read my posts.

I tried to offer the olive branch and tried to ask an honest question on this topic - not even Adam is God.
And all I have done since them is defend my basis, the ground work for the question.

I did not demand that you participate. And I have tried to respond to everything you have said.

But you misrepresent me

Apparently you make scripture fit Joseph's narrative instead of testing Joseph's words to see if they fit the narrative in scripture. Scripture trumps anyone. It is scripture that all these people you use as idols are supposed to relate their knowledge from.

You present ad mominem attacks

I have to give you credit for being self-willed, head strong and just plain huffy when it comes to the knowledge and testimony of those who know better than to be taken in by this ridiculous doctrine known as the Adam-God doctrine.

And nothing and no one can force you to do anything, not even the truth.

And I knew, I knew, all those questions you were asking me were a set up in an attempt to get me to accept your views. Well, guess what, it didn't work and cannot work because I know what is in scripture, so maybe it is you that does not understand. Maybe it is you that will find out the hard way and will have to repent. However, you won't know this until your last breath because your pride and judging nature will get in the way at every turn.

The question was clearly not addressed to you, It was addressed to someone that knows and understands.
So, quite frankly, if I had any say, I wish you would just go away. I wish to never see another post from you and your friends

As it has been pointed out to you by a variety of forum members how crazy this doctrine is, you just keep ignoring our point of view for yours, clearly a one sided conversation.

But I expect this sticks in your craw and you just can't leave it be. Just like an apostate can leave the church but can't leave it be.

"Saul, Saul, why persecutith thou me"

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

...Do you really believe that you know the scriptures better that Joseph and Brigham ...

Irrelevant!

You still avoided my question: Did Adam die?

Am I obligated to answer your question?
If so, what obligated me to do so?

[LoveIsTruth]

...Do you really believe that you know the scriptures better that Joseph and Brigham ...

Irrelevant!

You still avoided my question: Did Adam die?

Am I obligated to answer your question?
If so, what obligated me to do so?

Ha ha. Nothing really.

The truth is you CANNOT answer this question truthfully without revealing how truly insane your position is!

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

...Do you really believe that you know the scriptures better that Joseph and Brigham ...

Irrelevant!

You still avoided my question: Did Adam die?

Am I obligated to answer your question?
If so, what obligated me to do so?

Ha ha. Nothing really.

The truth is you CANNOT answer this question truthfully without revealing how truly insane your position is!

All I can do is reveal what Joseph taught, but your reason to ask is not to know but to condemn. You know very well what my answer is, the only answer that is consistent with "Adam the archangel".

[freedomforall]

You present ad mominem attacks. Ad what? Come on, you know that Joseph has merely pulled things out of the air, not out of scripture, because you cannot quote one verse that says Adam is our Father and God, not one. Neither can you quote one verse that says that Jesus is subservient to Adam. Not one without trying to quote either JS or BY. Let's see you find just one verse saying what you think it says without anyone elses opinions or input.

I have to give you credit for being self-willed, head strong and just plain huffy when it comes to the knowledge and testimony of those who know better than to be taken in by this ridiculous doctrine known as the Adam-God doctrine.

And nothing and no one can force you to do anything, not even the truth. Ditto. Try saying things without Joseph's help. BTW, you need to offer truth before it can be used to persuade anyone.

And I knew, I knew, all those questions you were asking me were a set up in an attempt to get me to accept your views. Well, guess what, it didn't work and cannot work because I know what is in scripture, so maybe it is you that does not understand. Maybe it is you that will find out the hard way and will have to repent. However, you won't know this until your last breath because your pride and judging nature will get in the way at every turn.

The question was clearly not addressed to you, It was addressed to someone that knows and understands. You're on the wrong forum then, conducting the wrong choir...this is afterall, an LDS website last time I checked. Here, you will receive more truth than you will ever be willing to acknowledge.

So, quite frankly, if I had any say, I wish you would just go away. You first. I wish to never see another post from you and your friends. Truth does hurt doesn't it. Try answering some questions instead of either dodging them or replacing them with more questions as has already been pointed out to you.

As it has been pointed out to you by a variety of forum members how crazy this doctrine is, you just keep ignoring our point of view for yours, clearly a one sided conversation.

But I expect this sticks in your craw and you just can't leave it be. Just like an apostate can leave the church but can't leave it be. False doctrine does stick in our craw, but as of yet, you can't figure that out. You just keep going and going and going hoping to gain some like minded individuals. Why else would you persist so relentlessly. Why can't you just concede and move on?

"Saul, Saul, why persecutith thou me" Now on a pity party, are we? Why do you feel the need to be persecuted when it is only your doctrine that is problematic and vehemently rejected? Can you tell the difference?

[freedomforall]

...Do you really believe that you know the scriptures better that Joseph and Brigham ...

Irrelevant!

You still avoided my question: Did Adam die?

Am I obligated to answer your question?
If so, what obligated me to do so?

Ha ha. Nothing really.

The truth is you CANNOT answer this question truthfully without revealing how truly insane your position is!

We're at an impasse, are we?

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

You present ad mominem attacks. Ad what? Come on, you know that Joseph has merely pulled things out of the air, not out of scripture, because you cannot quote one verse that says Adam is our Father and God, not one. Neither can you quote one verse that says that Jesus is subservient to Adam. Not one without trying to quote either JS or BY. Let's see you find just one verse saying what you think it says without anyone elses opinions or input.

I have to give you credit for being self-willed, head strong and just plain huffy when it comes to the knowledge and testimony of those who know better than to be taken in by this ridiculous doctrine known as the Adam-God doctrine.

And nothing and no one can force you to do anything, not even the truth. Ditto. Try saying things without Joseph's help. BTW, you need to offer truth before it can be used to persuade anyone.

And I knew, I knew, all those questions you were asking me were a set up in an attempt to get me to accept your views. Well, guess what, it didn't work and cannot work because I know what is in scripture, so maybe it is you that does not understand. Maybe it is you that will find out the hard way and will have to repent. However, you won't know this until your last breath because your pride and judging nature will get in the way at every turn.

The question was clearly not addressed to you, It was addressed to someone that knows and understands. You're on the wrong forum then, conducting the wrong choir...this is afterall, an LDS website last time I checked. Here, you will receive more truth than you will ever be willing to acknowledge.

So, quite frankly, if I had any say, I wish you would just go away. You first. I wish to never see another post from you and your friends. Truth does hurt doesn't it. Try answering some questions instead of either dodging them or replacing them with more questions as has already been pointed out to you.

As it has been pointed out to you by a variety of forum members how crazy this doctrine is, you just keep ignoring our point of view for yours, clearly a one sided conversation.

But I expect this sticks in your craw and you just can't leave it be. Just like an apostate can leave the church but can't leave it be. False doctrine does stick in our craw, but as of yet, you can't figure that out. You just keep going and going and going hoping to gain some like minded individuals. Why else would you persist so relentlessly. Why can't you just concede and move on?

"Saul, Saul, why persecutith thou me" Now on a pity party, are we? Why do you feel the need to be persecuted when it is only your doctrine that is problematic and vehemently rejected? Can you tell the difference?

Let he who is without sin throw the first stone at the prophets.

[freedomforall]

Adam brought death. Jesus brought life.

1 Corinthians 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Did anyone know that there are two Adams?

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

D&C 84:16
16 And from Enoch to Abel, who was slain by the conspiracy of his brother, who received the priesthood by the commandments of God, by the hand of his father Adam, who was the first man—

Rom. 5:14
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

John 5:21
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

1 Corinthians 15:47
47 The first man (Adam 1) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (Adam 2) is the Lord from heaven.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

“Eloheim looks round upon the eternity of matter and said to His associates and those that He was pleased to call upon at the time for His counselors, with regard to the Elements, Worlds, Planets, Kingdoms, and Thrones; said He, ‘Yahovah Michael, see that Eternal Matter on all sides, this way and that way; we have already created Worlds upon Worlds, shall we create another World? Yes, go and organize the elements yonder in space…Yahovah Michael go and create a world, make it, organize it, form it; and then put upon it everything in all the variety that you have see[n], that you have been in the habit of being associated with in other worlds, of beasts, birds, fowls, fish, and every insect, and creeping thing, and finally, the whole eternity of element is full of life, bring it together and make of it living creatures’. Yahovah Michael goes down and does as he is told. What I am now going to tell you, will no doubt astonish the whole of you.
When Yahovah Michael had organized the world, and brought from another kingdom the beasts, fish, fowl, and insects, and every tree, and plant with which we are acquainted, and thousands that we never saw, when He had filled the Earth with animal and vegetable life, Michael or Adam goes down to the new made world, and there he stays.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see the Essential Brigham Young pg. 94)

A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow, the life giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal subject to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there, a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in s remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegraye and cause trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render it immortal. The ensign p. 5?6; First Presidency Message; President Spencer w. Kimbal; Absolute Truth; Sept 1978

Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. This is a key for you. The faithful will become Gods, even the sons of God; but this does not overthrow the idea that we have a father. Adam is my Father; (this I will explain to you at some future time;) but it does not prove that he is not my father, if I become a God: it does not prove that I have not a father.” (JD 6:274-275)

“Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true. Where was Michael in the creation of this earth? Did he have a mission to the earth? He did. Where was he? In the Grand Council, and performed the mission assigned him there. Now, if it should happen that we have to pay tribute to Father Adam, what a humiliating circumstance it would be! Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys, and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see the white locks of Father Adam. But those are ideas which do not concern us at present, although it is written in the Bible—‘This is eternal life, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.’” (JD 5:331-332)

"President Young said There never was any world created & Peopled Nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are Ever Exalted and Crowned in the presence of God we shall become Saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the Blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its Effect. Adam made this world and Suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that Redemption & Exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we Cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any Change in the gospel of Salvation, It is an Eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the Endless age of eternity. There will never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same Gosple & Law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World’s End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290

[freedomforall]

You present ad mominem attacks. Ad what? Come on, you know that Joseph has merely pulled things out of the air, not out of scripture, because you cannot quote one verse that says Adam is our Father and God, not one. Neither can you quote one verse that says that Jesus is subservient to Adam. Not one without trying to quote either JS or BY. Let's see you find just one verse saying what you think it says without anyone elses opinions or input.

I have to give you credit for being self-willed, head strong and just plain huffy when it comes to the knowledge and testimony of those who know better than to be taken in by this ridiculous doctrine known as the Adam-God doctrine.

And nothing and no one can force you to do anything, not even the truth. Ditto. Try saying things without Joseph's help. BTW, you need to offer truth before it can be used to persuade anyone.

And I knew, I knew, all those questions you were asking me were a set up in an attempt to get me to accept your views. Well, guess what, it didn't work and cannot work because I know what is in scripture, so maybe it is you that does not understand. Maybe it is you that will find out the hard way and will have to repent. However, you won't know this until your last breath because your pride and judging nature will get in the way at every turn.

The question was clearly not addressed to you, It was addressed to someone that knows and understands. You're on the wrong forum then, conducting the wrong choir...this is afterall, an LDS website last time I checked. Here, you will receive more truth than you will ever be willing to acknowledge.

So, quite frankly, if I had any say, I wish you would just go away. You first. I wish to never see another post from you and your friends. Truth does hurt doesn't it. Try answering some questions instead of either dodging them or replacing them with more questions as has already been pointed out to you.

As it has been pointed out to you by a variety of forum members how crazy this doctrine is, you just keep ignoring our point of view for yours, clearly a one sided conversation.

But I expect this sticks in your craw and you just can't leave it be. Just like an apostate can leave the church but can't leave it be. False doctrine does stick in our craw, but as of yet, you can't figure that out. You just keep going and going and going hoping to gain some like minded individuals. Why else would you persist so relentlessly. Why can't you just concede and move on?

"Saul, Saul, why persecutith thou me" Now on a pity party, are we? Why do you feel the need to be persecuted when it is only your doctrine that is problematic and vehemently rejected? Can you tell the difference?

Let he who is without sin throw the first stone at the prophets. Reference, please. I don't recall a verse reading this way.

So you're incapable of speaking your own words, scripturally speaking, without regurgitating the words of others? How original.

Did Adam die or not? A very simple yes or no is all that is required.

Do you not want to answer questions using you own brain cells? If not, then maybe you should avoid asking any. That's fair, right? Being unwilling to commit, based on your own comprehension skills is very telling.

Hint: 1 Corinthians 15

[freedomforall]

“Eloheim looks round upon the eternity of matter and said to His associates and those that He was pleased to call upon at the time for His counselors, with regard to the Elements, Worlds, Planets, Kingdoms, and Thrones; said He, ‘Yahovah Michael, see that Eternal Matter on all sides, this way and that way; we have already created Worlds upon Worlds, shall we create another World? Yes, go and organize the elements yonder in space…Yahovah Michael go and create a world, make it, organize it, form it; and then put upon it everything in all the variety that you have see[n], that you have been in the habit of being associated with in other worlds, of beasts, birds, fowls, fish, and every insect, and creeping thing, and finally, the whole eternity of element is full of life, bring it together and make of it living creatures’. Yahovah Michael goes down and does as he is told. What I am now going to tell you, will no doubt astonish the whole of you.
When Yahovah Michael had organized the world, and brought from another kingdom the beasts, fish, fowl, and insects, and every tree, and plant with which we are acquainted, and thousands that we never saw, when He had filled the Earth with animal and vegetable life, Michael or Adam goes down to the new made world, and there he stays.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see the Essential Brigham Young pg. 94)

A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow, the life giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal subject to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there, a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in s remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegraye and cause trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render it immortal. The ensign p. 5?6; First Presidency Message; President Spencer w. Kimbal; Absolute Truth; Sept 1978

Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. This is a key for you. The faithful will become Gods, even the sons of God; but this does not overthrow the idea that we have a father. Adam is my Father; (this I will explain to you at some future time;) but it does not prove that he is not my father, if I become a God: it does not prove that I have not a father.” (JD 6:274-275)

“Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true. Where was Michael in the creation of this earth? Did he have a mission to the earth? He did. Where was he? In the Grand Council, and performed the mission assigned him there. Now, if it should happen that we have to pay tribute to Father Adam, what a humiliating circumstance it would be! Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys, and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see the white locks of Father Adam. But those are ideas which do not concern us at present, although it is written in the Bible—‘This is eternal life, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.’” (JD 5:331-332)

"President Young said There never was any world created & Peopled Nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are Ever Exalted and Crowned in the presence of God we shall become Saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the Blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its Effect. Adam made this world and Suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that Redemption & Exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we Cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any Change in the gospel of Salvation, It is an Eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the Endless age of eternity. There will never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same Gosple & Law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World’s End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290

Jehovah and Michael are two distinct separate individuals, I already addressed this fact. People that attend the temple know this as truth...of whom are willing to really listen and not make up stories.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism. It's in the book!