Mysteries of the Kingdom

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Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

JaredBees wrote: September 8th, 2017, 9:57 pm Wow, alot of great questions! I will try to answer. I hope Marc is reading this-- he could give you a great understanding. Give me a second.
OK, full disclosure. I'm using the Socratic Method.
I've think I've figured this out but all my searches have turned up no writings on it.
so, I'm looking for either
1) someone willing to walk down the path of my train of thinking
or
2) someone who actually knows and maybe know of some writings on it

So, are you are still willing.

diligently seeking
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1272

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by diligently seeking »

#2

I woul direct you this direction:

https://purerevelations.wordpress.com/a ... velation1/

If you are open and willing and move forward with faith-- praying to Father for help to suspend and protect against and eventually eliminate fear--- then this Samuel on the wall will blow your spiritual mind by what he's experienced and what you can learn through that which Jesus etc has revealed to him for yours and everybody's advantage who is and wants to be awake spiritually. If you DON'T believe the church is still under condemnation (which it is) and as a result is only. × amount of % true and is compromised as a result-- then this gentleman's writings will not be beneficial for you. If you want help understanding how to receive a "greater portion of God's word" / advance in this life receiving the desired spiritual blessings along with better understanding God's doctrines and mysteries then proceed forward with faith and heavenly blessed confidence reading his info.

Ps this man's information is not needed. ( dang is it helpful though) We have so much at our disposal through the resources of the restoration along with the spirit of revelation which will allow us to obtain...

The author of this blog and these amazing books encourages you to read his first book entitled "how to receive your second comforter" it is a book that shows the journey he took and life lived leading up to receiving his second comforter. This man is not a stone thrower at the church. However, he shares truth about its condition which can depending on where you're at either cut deep or confirm what has already been revealed to you. He is an active member from what I understand--- the difference is he is fully awake and has received and received and received... H.B.M.H. , God Bless you in your efforts to like wise receive.
Last edited by diligently seeking on September 9th, 2017, 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

umm, ya that is what I though.

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 8th, 2017, 3:59 pm I will show that the cannon of scripture and the teachings of Brigham Young are in harmony
Just to be thorough:
Adam and Michael are the same personage.
D&C 27:11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;
And Michael is not "a" but "the" archangel. (only one)
D&C 88:112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.
What is an archangel – the word is prefixed arch-angel
What is the meaning of the root word Arch?
It comes from the GREEK archos. From this basic meaning it is associated with chief or head or king or origin in one way or another. You can make many words with ARCH, from ARCHbishop to ARCHfoe, from ARCHfriend to ARCHilar.
And what is an angel?
D&C 129:1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
Adam, Michael is the Chief/Head/King Angel
or Adam, Michael is the Chief/Head/King resurrected personage, having a body of flesh and bones
Whereas Christ does not yet have a physical body – mortal or immortal
Ether 3:9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?
So who has greater power? Adam or Christ?
that would be Adam.
Is a person of greater power superior or subordinate to one of lesser power
that would be superior
Therefore Adam is superior to Christ.

Back to Michael is the Chief/Head/King resurrected personage, having a body of flesh and bones would make him God the Father.
And looking at “Adam, the father of all” might make sense as the father of all the spirits that come to this world rather that father of all mortals, which he is not.

And all of the above give credibility to
“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.”
(Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)
At least this teaching of Brigham Young is in complete harmony with the cannon of scripture.
And of course it would.
Joseph Smith taught this to Brigham - “ and Joseph taught this principle”
Joseph Smith translated and brought forth the Book of Mormon
and the D&C is mostly revelations given to Joseph Smith
why would anyone expect anything else?

Anyone can chose to believe it or they can chose to disbelieve it or they can chose to fight against it.
It is your agency, use it wisely.

But if you are going to criticize it be honest as to what is said here and
Back it up or Shut it up
What, your mouth?

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 8th, 2017, 6:04 pm Does anyone know what this means, anyone want to discuse it?
D&C 88
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.
It's not open for discussion. I know exactly what it says, but I'll reveal the answer on a need to know basis. And the word is discuss, not discuse.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Posts: 636

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Yes I most certainly called him a Liar. He lied about what I said and then inferred that I said God lied.
That is indeed what he did. And then he claimed an ad hominem attack. He either doesn't know what it is
or he lied that I did it.

I said there was never a first man in eternity
he said I said there was no first man on this world

So he lied - what more can I say.

He harasses people until they leave the forum - here is an example that he is proud of
freedomforall wrote: July 29th, 2017, 2:47 am The ADAM-GOD DOCTRINE IS FALSE. NO ARGUMENT NEEDED. NO BAITING REQUIRED. NO AMOUNT OF INSULTS CAN OR WILL CHANGE MY TESTIMONY. PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK BAD. YOUR TACTICS ARE THE VERY SAME AS THE PREVIOUS POSTERS COMING HERE TO START A CONFLICT. FRANKLY, I BELIEVE THIS DOCTRINE TO BE OTHER THAN ORTHODOX LDS BELIEF AND OF A FUNDAMENTALIST POINT OF VIEW. AND, APPARENTLY YOU LACK ENOUGH RESPECT FOR MY POSITION OF HAVING ENOUGH OF THIS TOPIC THAT NOW I FIGURE YOU ARE ONLY HERE TO GET FOLLOWERS, NOT TO ACTUALLY HEAR ARGUMENTS OF DIFFERENCE, FOR YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF CHANGING YOUR MIND WHATSOEVER, RATHER TO JAM JS AND BY DOWN OUR THROATS, ALL THE WHILE LETTING SCRIPTURE GATHER DUST ON YOUR SHELF.
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW MY ARGUMENTS, SEARCH THE FORUM. THERE ARE PLENTY. I HAVE NO INCLINATION OF REPEATING MYSELF EVERY TIME A NEW GUY COMES ALONG.

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 8th, 2017, 11:04 pm umm, ya that is what I though.
The word is thought.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
captain of 100
Posts: 636

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

freedomforall wrote: September 9th, 2017, 1:36 am
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 8th, 2017, 6:04 pm Does anyone know what this means, anyone want to discuse it?
D&C 88
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.
It's not open for discussion. I know exactly what it says, but I'll reveal the answer on a need to know basis. And the word is discuss, not discuse.
there is only one word for someone who treats people like this and we all know what it is.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
captain of 100
Posts: 636

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Let's see if it is possible to have a civil discussion.

My question is:

2 Nephi 2: tells us that the consequences of sin are physical and spiritual death.
and it says that spiritual death is separation from the presence of God

D&C 129 tells us that to be in heaven, which is where God is, we need to have either a perfected physical body or a perfected spirit body.


Physical death is the loss of the physical body.
is Spiritual death the loss of the spirit body?

freedomforall
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Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 9th, 2017, 1:38 am Yes I most certainly called him a Liar. He lied about what I said and then inferred that I said God lied.
That is indeed what he did. And then he claimed an ad hominem attack. He either doesn't know what it is
or he lied that I did it.

I said there was never a first man in eternity
he said I said there was no first man on this world

So he lied - what more can I say.

He harasses people until they leave the forum - here is an example that he is proud of
freedomforall wrote: July 29th, 2017, 2:47 am The ADAM-GOD DOCTRINE IS FALSE. NO ARGUMENT NEEDED. NO BAITING REQUIRED. NO AMOUNT OF INSULTS CAN OR WILL CHANGE MY TESTIMONY. PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK BAD. YOUR TACTICS ARE THE VERY SAME AS THE PREVIOUS POSTERS COMING HERE TO START A CONFLICT. FRANKLY, I BELIEVE THIS DOCTRINE TO BE OTHER THAN ORTHODOX LDS BELIEF AND OF A FUNDAMENTALIST POINT OF VIEW. AND, APPARENTLY YOU LACK ENOUGH RESPECT FOR MY POSITION OF HAVING ENOUGH OF THIS TOPIC THAT NOW I FIGURE YOU ARE ONLY HERE TO GET FOLLOWERS, NOT TO ACTUALLY HEAR ARGUMENTS OF DIFFERENCE, FOR YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF CHANGING YOUR MIND WHATSOEVER, RATHER TO JAM JS AND BY DOWN OUR THROATS, ALL THE WHILE LETTING SCRIPTURE GATHER DUST ON YOUR SHELF.
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW MY ARGUMENTS, SEARCH THE FORUM. THERE ARE PLENTY. I HAVE NO INCLINATION OF REPEATING MYSELF EVERY TIME A NEW GUY COMES ALONG.
:(( :(( :((

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Posts: 636

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

So no civility?

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 9th, 2017, 1:46 am
freedomforall wrote: September 9th, 2017, 1:36 am
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 8th, 2017, 6:04 pm Does anyone know what this means, anyone want to discuse it?
D&C 88
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.
It's not open for discussion. I know exactly what it says, but I'll reveal the answer on a need to know basis. And the word is discuss, not discuse.
there is only one word for someone who treats people like this and we all know what it is.
Reciprocate?

Hidingbehindmyhandle
captain of 100
Posts: 636

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Many many years ago, I taught the missionary discussions to a young man that was truly a golden contact.
The question was asked on the second discussion, he said of course, but you will still teach me all the discussions won't you.
A truly marvelous young man, he grasped everything, did everything asked of him with such joy.
After he had his interview were were leaving together and this thought popped into my head.
I stopped him and asked him if he knew the Lord wanted him to be baptized and he said of course.
Then I asked him if Satan wanted him to be baptized, he thought for a bit and said it never crossed his mind
but no he would not want him to be baptized. So between now and your baptism date, do you think he will
try to change your mind. A little surprised he said I guess he will. I felt a little bad because everyone was so happy before
and now we were parting a little somber. The date came and he was baptized, everything went perfect. Just before
we were leaving he came to me and said. How did you know? I have had the worst week ever in my life, the opposition
was terrible but I just looked forward to today. If you had not warned me, I don't know if I would have made it, but I kept hearing does Satan want me to be baptized.

In joining this forum, I have had some delightful private messages, but the rest reminds me of this marvelous young man's final week before his baptism.

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 9th, 2017, 1:55 am Let's see if it is possible to have a civil discussion.

My question is:

2 Nephi 2: tells us that the consequences of sin are physical and spiritual death.
and it says that spiritual death is separation from the presence of God

D&C 129 tells us that to be in heaven, which is where God is, we need to have either a perfected physical body or a perfected spirit body.


Physical death is the loss of the physical body.
is Spiritual death the loss of the spirit body?
No

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

why?

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 9th, 2017, 3:17 am why?
Our spirit is our first estate. When Lucifer rebelled against God, he lost his first estate and was cast down to earth along with one third of the hosts of heaven, of whom, decided to follow his plan.

We, on the other, after obtaining our first estate came to earth to receive our second estate (body of flesh and bone) to dwell here and follow the plan of God.

When we die, as an intelligence housed with a spirit and body, will go forward and be in our third estate, meaning we have kept the other two to never be divided ever again.

Cain will rule over Lucifer due to the fact that Cain has a body and Lucifer does not.

Moses 5
23 If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him;
24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

Moses 5:30
30 And Satan sware unto Cain that he would do according to his commands. And all these things were done in secret.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Posts: 636

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

freedomforall wrote: September 9th, 2017, 2:15 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 9th, 2017, 3:17 am why?
Our spirit is our first estate. When Lucifer rebelled against God, he lost his first estate and was cast down to earth along with one third of the hosts of heaven, of whom, decided to follow his plan.

We, on the other, after obtaining our first estate came to earth to receive our second estate (body of flesh and bone) to dwell here and follow the plan of God.

When we die, as an intelligence housed with a spirit and body, will go forward and be in our third estate, meaning we have kept the other two to never be divided ever again.
This does not say anything about why you say spiritual Death does not mean the loss of the Spirit Body.
And you are so into the scriptures, why no references

Ether 3
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
This says we become Christ's Sons and Daughters, in what way? Do we become his spirit Children?
D&C 88
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
This would seem to indicate we get a spirit body back. How can you get it back if you didn't lose it.?

And d&C 129 says that to be in heaven, you have to have a body, ether perfected physical or spirit.
Wouldn't not having a spirit body keep us out of heaven.

2 Nephi 9
12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.
This says spiritual death is hell. In the book, Joseph Smith's Teachings, Joseph tells us that Spirit Paradise, Spirit Prison, Hades, Shaol, Hell are all the same place, The Spirit world of more properly, the World of Spirits.

So spiritual death is that we go to hell, what keeps us there. not having a body keeps us out of heaven. So maybe not having a spirit body keeps us in hell

this verse also tells us that this spiritual death will deliver up its dead by the power of the resurrection.
so we are back to Ether 3:14 Do we become the spirit children of Christ?

The consequences of sin are death - all except Christ
both physical death - loss of physical body
and spiritual death - loss of spirit body

redeemed by Christ - become his sons & daughters - his spirit children - rise again, a spiritual body

is this the way it works, the scriptures seem to be saying that?

what else do the scriptures say about this?

eddie
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Posts: 2405

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by eddie »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 6th, 2017, 5:39 pm
freedomforall wrote: September 6th, 2017, 3:42 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 6th, 2017, 6:02 am Out of the best books ... would the prophet say the book you are sponsoring is a "best book"? Better yet, have you asked him?
And when you asked him, what did he say?
However, I can tell you what they would say, they would approve. A major source for the book is the JOD. The First Pres. approved its publication. Not only that, the church paid for it's compilation and publication. Many of the other sources are preserved in the Church Archives
And btw I didn't sponsor it, just offered a link to it

And what is better than the writings of the prophets of God. The answer is as plain as a stool in a pool...depends on where they come from, if they're not accepted by church leaders, they are not canon. Try teaching this stuff in church and see how far you get with it!
I taught priesthood for 14 years and I did teach some of it. It has been 10 years since I taught and I still have many brothers telling me they miss my teaching. I still answer questions from them.

So just give it a rest dude (you first), you are not the truth cop here. And you're not? Almost every post I enter is followed by a comment from you. What does this mean, dude2? It means that you are policing all my words and making every attempt to thwart my messages. Get real, evennnn! And let's get something straight, I am Mr. Dude. Do you need a rest? You seem @-)
Doug started this thread to see if anyone could answer some of his questions. Twice you have gone on major rants against this doctrine. You have constantly criticized The greatest prophet next to Christ and his closest and most loyal friend. Not Mr. Dude at all, just dud. But you are kind of right on one thing, it is us that could use a rest, from you.


There is not anything in the book that is not in harmony with the scriptures. So you say? Does your bishop agree with your assertion? Could you stand at the pulpit on Sunday and teach this stuff?
I don't know, I've not talked to him much. But my Group Lead definitely does. He approached me one day and wanted to share something amazing that he had learned. When I told him I knew it, he said I'm not surprised, I thought you might. This guy was called as a Bishop when 26 and served for a few decades.
Well, lets see, Joseph told us that Adam was an Exalted Resurrected being when he came to the Garden. And the Scriptures clearly confirmed that.
So there is at least one thing. If you would take the time, you would find they all do.

I
In general, no, I would not teach it over the pulpit, that is not the place for this kind of doctrine, there are two many (like you) that are not ready for it.


There are many places where one may think that (policingofall certainly believes that),
but there are things in the scriptures that Brigham calls "hollow toadstool stories"
- not the truth out of mercy (so people link policingofall won't blow a gaskett)
I would admonish anyone to always have a study companion, the spirit. The right spirit truly helps, however. Satan can appear as an angel of light.
I am sure you can tell us all about him, you have certainly spoken with that kind of spirit here more than once.
Are you JWharton? If not, the comparison is exponentially similar. I suppose there are similarities among some of us, strong willed and unrelenting. Only our messages are different. Sad.
You have a way to mathematically compare people? That's amazing. Tell us more.
I don't know JWharton, must be one of your friends?
What is sad is that I revel in the words of Joseph and Brigham and you deny them.
Yep, Jwharton it is, very similar attitude. No one has denied Joseph or Brigham, why twist and turn what has been said. Unrelenting is an appropriate definition.
We teach from the standard works, simple as that. The 4 standard works is by which all doctrine is taught.

Hidingbehindyourwhatever teaches false doctrine and sarcasm, not good. " Be not wise in thine own eyes."

Hidingbehindmyhandle
captain of 100
Posts: 636

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

eddie wrote: September 9th, 2017, 3:15 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 6th, 2017, 5:39 pm
freedomforall wrote: September 6th, 2017, 3:42 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 6th, 2017, 6:02 am Out of the best books ... would the prophet say the book you are sponsoring is a "best book"? Better yet, have you asked him?
And when you asked him, what did he say?
However, I can tell you what they would say, they would approve. A major source for the book is the JOD. The First Pres. approved its publication. Not only that, the church paid for it's compilation and publication. Many of the other sources are preserved in the Church Archives
And btw I didn't sponsor it, just offered a link to it

And what is better than the writings of the prophets of God. The answer is as plain as a stool in a pool...depends on where they come from, if they're not accepted by church leaders, they are not canon. Try teaching this stuff in church and see how far you get with it!
I taught priesthood for 14 years and I did teach some of it. It has been 10 years since I taught and I still have many brothers telling me they miss my teaching. I still answer questions from them.

So just give it a rest dude (you first), you are not the truth cop here. And you're not? Almost every post I enter is followed by a comment from you. What does this mean, dude2? It means that you are policing all my words and making every attempt to thwart my messages. Get real, evennnn! And let's get something straight, I am Mr. Dude. Do you need a rest? You seem @-)
Doug started this thread to see if anyone could answer some of his questions. Twice you have gone on major rants against this doctrine. You have constantly criticized The greatest prophet next to Christ and his closest and most loyal friend. Not Mr. Dude at all, just dud. But you are kind of right on one thing, it is us that could use a rest, from you.


There is not anything in the book that is not in harmony with the scriptures. So you say? Does your bishop agree with your assertion? Could you stand at the pulpit on Sunday and teach this stuff?
I don't know, I've not talked to him much. But my Group Lead definitely does. He approached me one day and wanted to share something amazing that he had learned. When I told him I knew it, he said I'm not surprised, I thought you might. This guy was called as a Bishop when 26 and served for a few decades.
Well, lets see, Joseph told us that Adam was an Exalted Resurrected being when he came to the Garden. And the Scriptures clearly confirmed that.
So there is at least one thing. If you would take the time, you would find they all do.

I
In general, no, I would not teach it over the pulpit, that is not the place for this kind of doctrine, there are two many (like you) that are not ready for it.


There are many places where one may think that (policingofall certainly believes that),
but there are things in the scriptures that Brigham calls "hollow toadstool stories"
- not the truth out of mercy (so people link policingofall won't blow a gaskett)
I would admonish anyone to always have a study companion, the spirit. The right spirit truly helps, however. Satan can appear as an angel of light.
I am sure you can tell us all about him, you have certainly spoken with that kind of spirit here more than once.
Are you JWharton? If not, the comparison is exponentially similar. I suppose there are similarities among some of us, strong willed and unrelenting. Only our messages are different. Sad.
You have a way to mathematically compare people? That's amazing. Tell us more.
I don't know JWharton, must be one of your friends?
What is sad is that I revel in the words of Joseph and Brigham and you deny them.
Yep, Jwharton it is, very similar attitude. No one has denied Joseph or Brigham, why twist and turn what has been said. Unrelenting is an appropriate definition.
We teach from the standard works, simple as that. The 4 standard works is by which all doctrine is taught.

Hidingbehindyourwhatever teaches false doctrine and sarcasm, not good. " Be not wise in thine own eyes."
I ask an honest question
you answer with a terse no - with no expatiation no scripture (which you demand of me)

I ask an honest question, I show my homework from the scriptures
you claim they are all that matters so when I use only them
you do this.

I offered the olive branch
you do this

I ask for a civil discussion of gospel doctrines
you do this

why?

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 9th, 2017, 2:48 pm
freedomforall wrote: September 9th, 2017, 2:15 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 9th, 2017, 3:17 am why?
Our spirit is our first estate. When Lucifer rebelled against God, he lost his first estate and was cast down to earth along with one third of the hosts of heaven, of whom, decided to follow his plan.

We, on the other, after obtaining our first estate came to earth to receive our second estate (body of flesh and bone) to dwell here and follow the plan of God.

When we die, as an intelligence housed with a spirit and body, will go forward and be in our third estate, meaning we have kept the other two to never be divided ever again.
This does not say anything about why you say spiritual Death does not mean the loss of the Spirit Body.
And you are so into the scriptures, why no references
Because a person having taught priesthood classes for 14 years should already know this doctrine inside and out. They, likewise, should know how to use provided references on every page in scripture.
Ether 3
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
This says we become Christ's Sons and Daughters, in what way? Do we become his spirit Children? This material is off topic. We are discussing "estates", not in becoming sons and daughters.
D&C 88
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
This would seem to indicate we get a spirit body back. How can you get it back if you didn't lose it.? Again, this is off topic. We are not discussing the condition of our spirit and body at death and resurrection. Read Alma Chaps 40-42 to get this information.

And d&C 129 says that to be in heaven, you have to have a body, ether perfected physical or spirit.
Wouldn't not having a spirit body keep us out of heaven.



Again, off topic, but I will address it this way. Which verse(s) tell us what you claim they say? They say what types are there but not what type is required.

D&C 129
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not alesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

Matt. 27:52 (52–53)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


2 Nephi 9
12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.
This says spiritual death is hell. In the book, Joseph Smith's Teachings, Joseph tells us that Spirit Paradise, Spirit Prison, Hades, Shaol, Hell are all the same place, The Spirit world of more properly, the World of Spirits.

So spiritual death is that we go to hell, what keeps us there. not having a body keeps us out of heaven. So maybe not having a spirit body keeps us in hell

Notice the contrast. Upon being righteous the Lord seals us his; upon being evil and without God in the world, the devil seals us his. A spiritually dead person cannot dwell with God. They would be miserable.

Mosiah 5:15
15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

Alma 34:35
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.


this verse also tells us that this spiritual death will deliver up its dead by the power of the resurrection.
so we are back to Ether 3:14 Do we become the spirit children of Christ?
No, only those that Christ seals as his can dwell with him

The consequences of sin are death - all except Christ
both physical death - loss of physical body Until the resurrection
and spiritual death - loss of spirit body Incorrect. It is the death of spirituality, of righteousness and being clean before God.

redeemed by Christ - become his sons & daughters - his spirit children - rise again, a spiritual body Spiritual body and spirit, both united in purity and righteousness forever.

is this the way it works, the scriptures seem to be saying that?


Spirit created = first estate
Spirit comes to earth and gains body = second estate
Spirit and body is the soul of man = Doctrine and Covenants 88:15
The soul lives a wicked life, no repentance, no concern for God, the devil seals him his = spiritual death
The soul lives a good life, repents often, keeps the commandments, prays and endures to the end of his life = eternal life



what else do the scriptures say about this? Alma Chaps 40-42, D&C 76 for a good start
Jude 1:6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Abr. 3:26 (24–28)
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
captain of 100
Posts: 636

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Off topic, that is the topic. I should know, I's my topic.
I guess civil is too much to expect.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 9th, 2017, 5:12 pm Off topic, that is the topic. I should know, I's my topic.
Okay, so what did I say (explain in detail) pertaining to your ambiguous topic? One portion deals with estates, one being first estate, and two, the second estate. Additionally, once we die and go to heaven, this will be our third estate.

The second portion had to do with the state of our spirit and body as a result of what type of life we lived.

Both topics are different in many ways.

So which one was your topic?

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

freedomforall wrote:A spiritually dead person cannot dwell with God. They would be miserable.
Mormon 9:4
4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

eddie
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2405

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by eddie »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: [quote=eddie post_id=806407 time=<a href="tel:1504991744">1504991744</a> user_id=9957]
[quote=Hidingbehindmyhandle post_id=805456 time=<a href="tel:1504741146">1504741146</a> user_id=10597]
[quote=freedomforall post_id=805421 time=<a href="tel:1504734124">1504734124</a> user_id=2299]
[quote=Hidingbehindmyhandle post_id=805274 time=<a href="tel:1504699333">1504699333</a> user_id=10597]
Out of the best books ... would the prophet say the book you are sponsoring is a "best book"? Better yet, have you asked him?
And when you asked him, what did he say?
However, I can tell you what they would say, they would approve. A major source for the book is the JOD. The First Pres. approved its publication. Not only that, the church paid for it's compilation and publication. Many of the other sources are preserved in the Church Archives
And btw I didn't sponsor it, just offered a link to it

And what is better than the writings of the prophets of God. The answer is as plain as a stool in a pool...depends on where they come from, if they're not accepted by church leaders, they are not canon. Try teaching this stuff in church and see how far you get with it!
I taught priesthood for 14 years and I did teach some of it. It has been 10 years since I taught and I still have many brothers telling me they miss my teaching. I still answer questions from them.

So just give it a rest dude (you first), you are not the truth cop here. And you're not? Almost every post I enter is followed by a comment from you. What does this mean, dude2? It means that you are policing all my words and making every attempt to thwart my messages. Get real, evennnn! And let's get something straight, I am Mr. Dude. Do you need a rest? You seem @-)
Doug started this thread to see if anyone could answer some of his questions. Twice you have gone on major rants against this doctrine. You have constantly criticized The greatest prophet next to Christ and his closest and most loyal friend. Not Mr. Dude at all, just dud. But you are kind of right on one thing, it is us that could use a rest, from you.


There is not anything in the book that is not in harmony with the scriptures. So you say? Does your bishop agree with your assertion? Could you stand at the pulpit on Sunday and teach this stuff?
I don't know, I've not talked to him much. But my Group Lead definitely does. He approached me one day and wanted to share something amazing that he had learned. When I told him I knew it, he said I'm not surprised, I thought you might. This guy was called as a Bishop when 26 and served for a few decades.
Well, lets see, Joseph told us that Adam was an Exalted Resurrected being when he came to the Garden. And the Scriptures clearly confirmed that.
So there is at least one thing. If you would take the time, you would find they all do.

I
In general, no, I would not teach it over the pulpit, that is not the place for this kind of doctrine, there are two many (like you) that are not ready for it.


There are many places where one may think that (policingofall certainly believes that),
but there are things in the scriptures that Brigham calls "hollow toadstool stories"
- not the truth out of mercy (so people link policingofall won't blow a gaskett)
I would admonish anyone to always have a study companion, the spirit. The right spirit truly helps, however. Satan can appear as an angel of light.
I am sure you can tell us all about him, you have certainly spoken with that kind of spirit here more than once.
Are you JWharton? If not, the comparison is exponentially similar. I suppose there are similarities among some of us, strong willed and unrelenting. Only our messages are different. Sad.
You have a way to mathematically compare people? That's amazing. Tell us more.
I don't know JWharton, must be one of your friends?
What is sad is that I revel in the words of Joseph and Brigham and you deny them.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Yep, Jwharton it is, very similar attitude. No one has denied Joseph or Brigham, why twist and turn what has been said. Unrelenting is an appropriate definition.
We teach from the standard works, simple as that. The 4 standard works is by which all doctrine is taught.

Hidingbehindyourwhatever teaches false doctrine and sarcasm, not good. " Be not wise in thine own eyes."
[/quote]
I ask an honest question
you answer with a terse no - with no expatiation no scripture (which you demand of me)

I ask an honest question, I show my homework from the scriptures
you claim they are all that matters so when I use only them
you do this.

I offered the olive branch
you do this

I ask for a civil discussion of gospel doctrines
you do this

why?
[/quote]
freedomforall wrote: September 9th, 2017, 5:07 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 9th, 2017, 2:48 pm
freedomforall wrote: September 9th, 2017, 2:15 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 9th, 2017, 3:17 am why?
Our spirit is our first estate. When Lucifer rebelled against God, he lost his first estate and was cast down to earth along with one third of the hosts of heaven, of whom, decided to follow his plan.

We, on the other, after obtaining our first estate came to earth to receive our second estate (body of flesh and bone) to dwell here and follow the plan of God.

When we die, as an intelligence housed with a spirit and body, will go forward and be in our third estate, meaning we have kept the other two to never be divided ever again.
This does not say anything about why you say spiritual Death does not mean the loss of the Spirit Body.
And you are so into the scriptures, why no references
Because a person having taught priesthood classes for 14 years should already know this doctrine inside and out. They, likewise, should know how to use provided references on every page in scripture.
Ether 3
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
This says we become Christ's Sons and Daughters, in what way? Do we become his spirit Children? This material is off topic. We are discussing "estates", not in becoming sons and daughters.
D&C 88
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
This would seem to indicate we get a spirit body back. How can you get it back if you didn't lose it.? Again, this is off topic. We are not discussing the condition of our spirit and body at death and resurrection. Read Alma Chaps 40-42 to get this information.

And d&C 129 says that to be in heaven, you have to have a body, ether perfected physical or spirit.
Wouldn't not having a spirit body keep us out of heaven.



Again, off topic, but I will address it this way. Which verse(s) tell us what you claim they say? They say what types are there but not what type is required.

D&C 129
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not alesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

Matt. 27:52 (52–53)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


2 Nephi 9
12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.
This says spiritual death is hell. In the book, Joseph Smith's Teachings, Joseph tells us that Spirit Paradise, Spirit Prison, Hades, Shaol, Hell are all the same place, The Spirit world of more properly, the World of Spirits.

So spiritual death is that we go to hell, what keeps us there. not having a body keeps us out of heaven. So maybe not having a spirit body keeps us in hell

Notice the contrast. Upon being righteous the Lord seals us his; upon being evil and without God in the world, the devil seals us his. A spiritually dead person cannot dwell with God. They would be miserable.

Mosiah 5:15
15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

Alma 34:35
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.


this verse also tells us that this spiritual death will deliver up its dead by the power of the resurrection.
so we are back to Ether 3:14 Do we become the spirit children of Christ?
No, only those that Christ seals as his can dwell with him

The consequences of sin are death - all except Christ
both physical death - loss of physical body Until the resurrection
and spiritual death - loss of spirit body Incorrect. It is the death of spirituality, of righteousness and being clean before God.

redeemed by Christ - become his sons & daughters - his spirit children - rise again, a spiritual body Spiritual body and spirit, both united in purity and righteousness forever.

is this the way it works, the scriptures seem to be saying that?


Spirit created = first estate
Spirit comes to earth and gains body = second estate
Spirit and body is the soul of man = Doctrine and Covenants 88:15
The soul lives a wicked life, no repentance, no concern for God, the devil seals him his = spiritual death
The soul lives a good life, repents often, keeps the commandments, prays and endures to the end of his life = eternal life



what else do the scriptures say about this? Alma Chaps 40-42, D&C 76 for a good start
Jude 1:6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Abr. 3:26 (24–28)
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Alma 40:11
11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

2 Nephi 2:27
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

The above explains very nicely what happens to the righteous or the wicked after death.

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