GA Excommunicated

[Finrock]

The church confirmed that this action was not taken because of disillusionment or apostasy.

Sounds like they might have found one of the people leaking church documents. Either that or adultery. About the only 2 things I can think of that would warrant excommunication and not be disillusionment or apostasy.

Other options are child molestation or abuse of some sort.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

its funny how almost everyone jumps to the conclusion that this man sinned and needs to repent, no one has heard what he did yet most jump to assumptions. (I know i will get ridiculed for say this) but do you think its possible the excommunication was done in error? Not a single person took that into consideration nor i doubt many will. There have been some men of God that has been excommunicated. Maybe we should take our own religious belief into accord here and judge not that ye be not judge. without knowing him(or anyone really) should we not give them the benefit of the doubt? just my 2¢

True. Could be that he is innocent of wrong doing and a mistake was made.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Apart for the private particulars of this case, the manner in which this was handled from the Public Affairs department of the church leaves something to be desired.

First off we have the rather strange statement that this was not due to "disillusionment or apostasy". Since when is one excommunicated for disillusionment? But that is another issue.

However the greater problem here is that given the limited number of things one can be excommunicated for and given that the church statement ruled out one of the major ones, apostasy we are now down to just a few others. I think it is safe to say that this was not a case of murder, and it seem rather unlikely to me that a member of the 70 would have access to church funds that he could convert to his own use. A case of abuse would likely have landed in the courts prior to an excommunication so that seems not likely at all. This leads us to only one other place. So in attempting to tamp down rumours the PA department has only served to fuel them.

So how might this have been handled? A couple of things come to mind. They could have just released him and let the local Stake President deal with the matter. He could have been excommunicated and the new release simple state that he had been released from his calling for personal reasons and never mentioned the excommunication at all, it really isn't a public issue anyway.

But as it stands the way this was done would seem to add to the pain inflicted on hime and his family's and invite the worse sort of rumour mongering.

Thank goodness the world is blessed with your presence and wisdom, seeing that your unique gifts have led you to grace us with a critique on how the First Presidency and 12 apostles chose to handle this situation.

The only prophet, his counselors, and 12 apostles of the Lord...think about what you're saying.

Yeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock

[brlenox]

Apart for the private particulars of this case, the manner in which this was handled from the Public Affairs department of the church leaves something to be desired.

First off we have the rather strange statement that this was not due to "disillusionment or apostasy". Since when is one excommunicated for disillusionment? But that is another issue.

However the greater problem here is that given the limited number of things one can be excommunicated for and given that the church statement ruled out one of the major ones, apostasy we are now down to just a few others. I think it is safe to say that this was not a case of murder, and it seem rather unlikely to me that a member of the 70 would have access to church funds that he could convert to his own use. A case of abuse would likely have landed in the courts prior to an excommunication so that seems not likely at all. This leads us to only one other place. So in attempting to tamp down rumours the PA department has only served to fuel them.

So how might this have been handled? A couple of things come to mind. They could have just released him and let the local Stake President deal with the matter. He could have been excommunicated and the new release simple state that he had been released from his calling for personal reasons and never mentioned the excommunication at all, it really isn't a public issue anyway.

But as it stands the way this was done would seem to add to the pain inflicted on hime and his family's and invite the worse sort of rumour mongering.

Thank goodness the world is blessed with your presence and wisdom, seeing that your unique gifts have led you to grace us with a critique on how the First Presidency and 12 apostles chose to handle this situation.

The only prophet, his counselors, and 12 apostles of the Lord...think about what you're saying.

Yeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock

You've never gotten it and I suspect never will. You consider yourself as one person capable of being guided by the spirit and yet somehow question that 15 Apostles having far better spiritual capacity than you have ever manifest could as a body mistake the inspiration of the spirit. If one were unclear at any given moment the unified, prayerful process and seeking of the spirit would unite them.

I have conducted disciplinary councils in the church and have observed my perception changed in a moment when the spirit manifest what the Lord wanted. You have not.

Thus having no experience, it is shear folly for you to comment on something that you do not understand, cannot understand, and most likely will never understand unless your attitude changed.

I have observed few activities in the church where the unifying aspect of the spirits direction is more palpable and discernable than in something so significant considering it's measure is the worth of a soul as the unity in a disciplinary council.

[Robin Hood]

Apart for the private particulars of this case, the manner in which this was handled from the Public Affairs department of the church leaves something to be desired.

First off we have the rather strange statement that this was not due to "disillusionment or apostasy". Since when is one excommunicated for disillusionment? But that is another issue.

However the greater problem here is that given the limited number of things one can be excommunicated for and given that the church statement ruled out one of the major ones, apostasy we are now down to just a few others. I think it is safe to say that this was not a case of murder, and it seem rather unlikely to me that a member of the 70 would have access to church funds that he could convert to his own use. A case of abuse would likely have landed in the courts prior to an excommunication so that seems not likely at all. This leads us to only one other place. So in attempting to tamp down rumours the PA department has only served to fuel them.

So how might this have been handled? A couple of things come to mind. They could have just released him and let the local Stake President deal with the matter. He could have been excommunicated and the new release simple state that he had been released from his calling for personal reasons and never mentioned the excommunication at all, it really isn't a public issue anyway.

But as it stands the way this was done would seem to add to the pain inflicted on hime and his family's and invite the worse sort of rumour mongering.

Thank goodness the world is blessed with your presence and wisdom, seeing that your unique gifts have led you to grace us with a critique on how the First Presidency and 12 apostles chose to handle this situation.

The only prophet, his counselors, and 12 apostles of the Lord...think about what you're saying.

Yeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock

You've never gotten it and I suspect never will. You consider yourself as one person capable of being guided by the spirit and yet somehow question that 15 Apostles having far better spiritual capacity than you have ever manifest could as a body mistake the inspiration of the spirit. If one were unclear at any given moment the unified, prayerful process and seeking of the spirit would unite them.

I have conducted disciplinary councils in the church and have observed my perception changed in a moment when the spirit manifest what the Lord wanted. You have not.

Thus having no experience, it is shear folly for you to comment on something that you do not understand, cannot understand, and most likely will never understand unless your attitude changed.

I have observed few activities in the church where the unifying aspect of the spirits direction is more palpable and discernable than in something so significant considering it's measure is the worth of a soul as the unity in a disciplinary council.

I have to agree with this.
Fortunately I have not had to conduct many disciplinary councils, but when I have, I have had unmistakable manifestations of the Spirit. I will always remember one in particular.
Obviously, no details will be forthcoming, but it was a profound experience; probably the highlight of my time as a bishop.

[sushi_chef]

looks like people/bishops judge them, not vice versa

"
38 For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion.
39 And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known.
40 And even the bishop, who is a judge, and his counselors, if they are not faithful in their stewardships shall be condemned, and others shall be planted in their stead.
41 For, behold, I say unto you that Zion shall flourish, and the glory of the Lord shall be upon her;
42 And she shall be an ensign unto the people, and there shall come unto her out of every nation under heaven.
43 And the day shall come when the nations of the earth shall tremble because of her, and shall fear because of her terrible ones. The Lord hath spoken it. Amen.

Section 64
:-B

[Red]

Apart for the private particulars of this case, the manner in which this was handled from the Public Affairs department of the church leaves something to be desired.

First off we have the rather strange statement that this was not due to "disillusionment or apostasy". Since when is one excommunicated for disillusionment? But that is another issue.

However the greater problem here is that given the limited number of things one can be excommunicated for and given that the church statement ruled out one of the major ones, apostasy we are now down to just a few others. I think it is safe to say that this was not a case of murder, and it seem rather unlikely to me that a member of the 70 would have access to church funds that he could convert to his own use. A case of abuse would likely have landed in the courts prior to an excommunication so that seems not likely at all. This leads us to only one other place. So in attempting to tamp down rumours the PA department has only served to fuel them.

So how might this have been handled? A couple of things come to mind. They could have just released him and let the local Stake President deal with the matter. He could have been excommunicated and the new release simple state that he had been released from his calling for personal reasons and never mentioned the excommunication at all, it really isn't a public issue anyway.

But as it stands the way this was done would seem to add to the pain inflicted on hime and his family's and invite the worse sort of rumour mongering.

Thank goodness the world is blessed with your presence and wisdom, seeing that your unique gifts have led you to grace us with a critique on how the First Presidency and 12 apostles chose to handle this situation.

The only prophet, his counselors, and 12 apostles of the Lord...think about what you're saying.

Yeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock

You've never gotten it and I suspect never will. You consider yourself as one person capable of being guided by the spirit and yet somehow question that 15 Apostles having far better spiritual capacity than you have ever manifest could as a body mistake the inspiration of the spirit. If one were unclear at any given moment the unified, prayerful process and seeking of the spirit would unite them.

I have conducted disciplinary councils in the church and have observed my perception changed in a moment when the spirit manifest what the Lord wanted. You have not.

Thus having no experience, it is shear folly for you to comment on something that you do not understand, cannot understand, and most likely will never understand unless your attitude changed.

I have observed few activities in the church where the unifying aspect of the spirits direction is more palpable and discernable than in something so significant considering it's measure is the worth of a soul as the unity in a disciplinary council.

What is it from your past, BRLenox, that makes you speak so harshly to others? And pass judgment so quickly? Why are you so sharp? I see sparks of inspired moments and then weird judgments out of left field that don't mesh with the inspiration. Sometimes I see sentiments that you share with Finrock and other times i feel like Rewcox has returned. It's very confusing.

[Durzan]

Something does seem off about this situation. Not gonna point any fingers at the Brethren or anyone else, but something is amiss here. If we get anymore information, we can analyze it then.

Best we reserve judgement and watch vigilantly.

[brlenox]

Thank goodness the world is blessed with your presence and wisdom, seeing that your unique gifts have led you to grace us with a critique on how the First Presidency and 12 apostles chose to handle this situation.

The only prophet, his counselors, and 12 apostles of the Lord...think about what you're saying.

Yeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock

You've never gotten it and I suspect never will. You consider yourself as one person capable of being guided by the spirit and yet somehow question that 15 Apostles having far better spiritual capacity than you have ever manifest could as a body mistake the inspiration of the spirit. If one were unclear at any given moment the unified, prayerful process and seeking of the spirit would unite them.

I have conducted disciplinary councils in the church and have observed my perception changed in a moment when the spirit manifest what the Lord wanted. You have not.

Thus having no experience, it is shear folly for you to comment on something that you do not understand, cannot understand, and most likely will never understand unless your attitude changed.

I have observed few activities in the church where the unifying aspect of the spirits direction is more palpable and discernable than in something so significant considering it's measure is the worth of a soul as the unity in a disciplinary council.

What is it from your past, BRLenox, that makes you speak so harshly to others? And pass judgment so quickly? Why are you so sharp? I see sparks of inspired moments and then weird judgments out of left field that don't mesh with the inspiration. Sometimes I see sentiments that you share with Finrock and other times i feel like Rewcox has returned. It's very confusing.

First, that you compare me to rewcox is quite a compliment - another TBM that was not ever critical of the Brethren.

I suspect that my first response should own up to the fact that I am a putz in certain situations. (maybe all the time) I can be painfully patient with those who are innocent in knowledge and who err on the part of ignorance. However, there is one style of response that I can be quick and fierce in my defense.

It has ever been my pattern, practice, preference, passion to testify of the distinct and singular brethren that have been called to lead this church. Most often my harshest tone is in response to those who should know better, who have adequate understanding, or who make certain claims like having their calling and election made sure, that then turn around and willingly allow Satan to guide their tongue in defamation of the Apostles and prophets and make liars of themselves.

I am of course surprised why anyone seems oblivious to the fact that they seem to not be able to pass up the opportunity to put down the brethren. Take Finrock for instance, sometimes he can participate in a discussion and seem a reasonable sort. However, practically everytime any sort or support for the brethren is manifest he cannot, simply cannot stop himself from commenting. Always negative and undermining.

Now the question I ask you is why his response, obviously undermining and disrespectful, skirting under your particular line of offense. Why are you not asking him why is he so bent on speaking evil of he Lords anointed. Why does it not matter to you that he is acting on the part of a burgeoning apostate tendency and that he does this unfailingly. Why does it not concern you that he might be the cause for weakening someone else's testimony of the brethren. Lots of that going around these days and I do not understand the saints who cannot see the risk to the soul of those who undermine the brethren and the risk to those who might be persuaded by their conversation.

Perhaps I am the putz, or just plain stupid. Maybe I come off in your book as harsh and critical but I would rather stand here as the stupid, harsh critical, putz of dubious social talent but be all those things in testimony and defense of the brethren than to fly under the radar by limiting my critical comments to the brethren as it seems is more common.

There are others such as Finrock and a few others who know better and I am simply the voice to offset their bad manners.

[brlenox]

Thank goodness the world is blessed with your presence and wisdom, seeing that your unique gifts have led you to grace us with a critique on how the First Presidency and 12 apostles chose to handle this situation.

The only prophet, his counselors, and 12 apostles of the Lord...think about what you're saying.

Yeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock

You've never gotten it and I suspect never will. You consider yourself as one person capable of being guided by the spirit and yet somehow question that 15 Apostles having far better spiritual capacity than you have ever manifest could as a body mistake the inspiration of the spirit. If one were unclear at any given moment the unified, prayerful process and seeking of the spirit would unite them.

I have conducted disciplinary councils in the church and have observed my perception changed in a moment when the spirit manifest what the Lord wanted. You have not.

Thus having no experience, it is shear folly for you to comment on something that you do not understand, cannot understand, and most likely will never understand unless your attitude changed.

I have observed few activities in the church where the unifying aspect of the spirits direction is more palpable and discernable than in something so significant considering it's measure is the worth of a soul as the unity in a disciplinary council.

What is it from your past, BRLenox, that makes you speak so harshly to others? And pass judgment so quickly? Why are you so sharp? I see sparks of inspired moments and then weird judgments out of left field that don't mesh with the inspiration. Sometimes I see sentiments that you share with Finrock and other times i feel like Rewcox has returned. It's very confusing.

Really it is not my past so much as what I have become. In ignorance early in my life I might have come off less decisive but I know what team I am on and I am loyal to a fault. As well you know Finrock and this is no hasty judgement. You should recognize that he has always taken this approach.

[JK4Woods]

I figure he was in the south pacific for too long a time. Perhaps his spouse didn't want to accompany him to New Zealand after the first year or so.... ...grand babies being born and that sort of thing.

Lonliness is a real situation at the top and many try (and fail) to find solace in flirtations with attractive and game potential partners.
My guess is he came home, and went to the Brethern with a repentant attitude and wanting to make things right.

[Spaced_Out]

It does tell us to Judge "righteously" which most aren't of course cause everyone is thinking he did something wrong or sinned (which of course he is a sinner, we all are) so of course we are not judging righteously or no one wouldnt have made assumptions right away, plus what i quoted was Matthew 7:1-2...you assume to much, just because i said the excommunication could have been done in error wasn't me judging, it was just a person keeping an open mind to the possibility that the "natural man" is an enemy of God (even the prophet is a natural man), not saying he is an enemy of God just saying that man errors and most hold the 12 and the presidency (Or as you put it the "Process" which is in essence saying the higher ups from my assumptions from what your saying) as men that would never make a fault or could never be wrong, which I don't agree with holding a man to such high esteem (to me that is idolism) only God should have such obedience from us.

That's why I commented on this thread knowing it will become a challenge to the leadership of the LDS Church. As many have stated it is a disciplinary council, if it is a stake high councils it is 6 for and 6 against by drawn by lots. It removes the so called natural man making a decision by a single person.

The scriptures clearly teach to whom much is give much is required- the greater the punishment or more stripes to those who know the truth, so it is mostly the case when person in church leadership or positions of responsibility are disciplines. There are opportunities for appeal/or request for review of decision made. To excommunicate a GA without real evidence of him being guilty of the sin accused and calming it an error is a very high stretch of a bigoted imagination.

Second we need to give obedience to the Prophets and not speak evil against them - if you think or imagine in your mind that they have sinned it is God's problem to sort out and not yours. Jesus Christ is the head of the LDS church so indirectly you are accusing the Master of allowing sin in the church and the brethren to fail. But this is off topic, and has been discussed ad nausea already.

[Mark]

"However, practically everytime any sort or support for the brethren is manifest he cannot, simply cannot stop himself from commenting. Always negative and undermining."

That is Finrock to a T. The man literally cant observe any discussion voicing support for the Brethren in their stewardship responsibilities without throwing some cold water on the sentiment that the Brethren are or were acting in their capacity as inspired servants of the Lord. He always has to place some kind of doubt and entertain the distinct possibility that the Brethren being mortal could be getting it wrong or are misdirected in their approach. This literally happens time and again! He is a professional contrarian when it come to confidence in the revelatory abilities of these Brethren. It is uncanny to me. I would have pegged him to be a Snuffer advocate but he adamantly denies this. You sure wouldn't know that with his consistency about this issue.

[Red]

Yeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock

You've never gotten it and I suspect never will. You consider yourself as one person capable of being guided by the spirit and yet somehow question that 15 Apostles having far better spiritual capacity than you have ever manifest could as a body mistake the inspiration of the spirit. If one were unclear at any given moment the unified, prayerful process and seeking of the spirit would unite them.

I have conducted disciplinary councils in the church and have observed my perception changed in a moment when the spirit manifest what the Lord wanted. You have not.

Thus having no experience, it is shear folly for you to comment on something that you do not understand, cannot understand, and most likely will never understand unless your attitude changed.

I have observed few activities in the church where the unifying aspect of the spirits direction is more palpable and discernable than in something so significant considering it's measure is the worth of a soul as the unity in a disciplinary council.

What is it from your past, BRLenox, that makes you speak so harshly to others? And pass judgment so quickly? Why are you so sharp? I see sparks of inspired moments and then weird judgments out of left field that don't mesh with the inspiration. Sometimes I see sentiments that you share with Finrock and other times i feel like Rewcox has returned. It's very confusing.

First, that you compare me to rewcox is quite a compliment - another TBM that was not ever critical of the Brethren.
:ymsick:
I suspect that my first response should own up to the fact that I am a putz in certain situations. (maybe all the time) I can be painfully patient with those who are innocent in knowledge and who err on the part of ignorance. However, there is one style of response that I can be quick and fierce in my defense.

It has ever been my pattern, practice, preference, passion to testify of the distinct and singular brethren that have been called to lead this church. Most often my harshest tone is in response to those who should know better, who have adequate understanding, or who make certain claims like having their calling and election made sure, that then turn around and willingly allow Satan to guide their tongue in defamation of the Apostles and prophets and make liars of themselves.

I am of course surprised why anyone seems oblivious to the fact that they seem to not be able to pass up the opportunity to put down the brethren. Take Finrock for instance, sometimes he can participate in a discussion and seem a reasonable sort. However, practically everytime any sort or support for the brethren is manifest he cannot, simply cannot stop himself from commenting. Always negative and undermining.

Now the question I ask you is why his response, obviously undermining and disrespectful, skirting under your particular line of offense. Why are you not asking him why is he so bent on speaking evil of he Lords anointed. Why does it not matter to you that he is acting on the part of a burgeoning apostate tendency and that he does this unfailingly. Why does it not concern you that he might be the cause for weakening someone else's testimony of the brethren. Lots of that going around these days and I do not understand the saints who cannot see the risk to the soul of those who undermine the brethren and the risk to those who might be persuaded by their conversation.

Perhaps I am the putz, or just plain stupid. Maybe I come off in your book as harsh and critical but I would rather stand here as the stupid, harsh critical, putz of dubious social talent but be all those things in testimony and defense of the brethren than to fly under the radar by limiting my critical comments to the brethren as it seems is more common.

There are others such as Finrock and a few others who know better and I am simply the voice to offset their bad manners.

I didn't really find it undermining or disrespectful. But I also don't think that there's a single person on the earth that's better than I, nor am I better than anyone else. I think this is how the Lord intends his people to be, whether they are apostle or Baptist. I can't put words into Fin's mouth, but those were my thoughts when I read his words. I let myself be guided by the spirit as often as possible. Fin's comments have never made me feel as though the spirit were not also with him. I can't say I've read everything he's ever written. I do not know him enough to want to defend him, but I can tell you this: I feel Christ when I read his words and I can feel goodness, but your words make me feel darkness. I don't think our Savior would have us be as harsh as you are. That's why I ask what has happened in your past to make you this way. Someone must have done you wrong at some point and this is how you make up for it. I hope you can find peace with whatever it is so you no longer have that wedge between you and the Savior.

[Red]

"However, practically everytime any sort or support for the brethren is manifest he cannot, simply cannot stop himself from commenting. Always negative and undermining."

That is Finrock to a T. The man literally cant observe any discussion voicing support for the Brethren in their stewardship responsibilities without throwing some cold water on the sentiment that the Brethren are or were acting in their capacity as inspired servants of the Lord. He always has to place some kind of doubt and entertain the distinct possibility that the Brethren being mortal could be getting it wrong or are misdirected in their approach. This literally happens time and again! He is a professional contrarian when it come to confidence in the revelatory abilities of these Brethren. It is uncanny to me. I would have pegged him to be a Snuffer advocate but he adamantly denies this. You sure wouldn't know that with his consistency about this issue.

I won't defend Fin, I will say without bias: I don't think he's a Snufferite. He pretty much dances to the sound of his own drum. He's not the type to follow anyone but God. It's pretty evident in one on one conversations.

[brlenox]

You've never gotten it and I suspect never will. You consider yourself as one person capable of being guided by the spirit and yet somehow question that 15 Apostles having far better spiritual capacity than you have ever manifest could as a body mistake the inspiration of the spirit. If one were unclear at any given moment the unified, prayerful process and seeking of the spirit would unite them.

I have conducted disciplinary councils in the church and have observed my perception changed in a moment when the spirit manifest what the Lord wanted. You have not.

Thus having no experience, it is shear folly for you to comment on something that you do not understand, cannot understand, and most likely will never understand unless your attitude changed.

I have observed few activities in the church where the unifying aspect of the spirits direction is more palpable and discernable than in something so significant considering it's measure is the worth of a soul as the unity in a disciplinary council.

What is it from your past, BRLenox, that makes you speak so harshly to others? And pass judgment so quickly? Why are you so sharp? I see sparks of inspired moments and then weird judgments out of left field that don't mesh with the inspiration. Sometimes I see sentiments that you share with Finrock and other times i feel like Rewcox has returned. It's very confusing.

First, that you compare me to rewcox is quite a compliment - another TBM that was not ever critical of the Brethren.
:ymsick: :-BD
I suspect that my first response should own up to the fact that I am a putz in certain situations. (maybe all the time) I can be painfully patient with those who are innocent in knowledge and who err on the part of ignorance. However, there is one style of response that I can be quick and fierce in my defense.

It has ever been my pattern, practice, preference, passion to testify of the distinct and singular brethren that have been called to lead this church. Most often my harshest tone is in response to those who should know better, who have adequate understanding, or who make certain claims like having their calling and election made sure, that then turn around and willingly allow Satan to guide their tongue in defamation of the Apostles and prophets and make liars of themselves.

I am of course surprised why anyone seems oblivious to the fact that they seem to not be able to pass up the opportunity to put down the brethren. Take Finrock for instance, sometimes he can participate in a discussion and seem a reasonable sort. However, practically everytime any sort or support for the brethren is manifest he cannot, simply cannot stop himself from commenting. Always negative and undermining.

Now the question I ask you is why his response, obviously undermining and disrespectful, skirting under your particular line of offense. Why are you not asking him why is he so bent on speaking evil of he Lords anointed. Why does it not matter to you that he is acting on the part of a burgeoning apostate tendency and that he does this unfailingly. Why does it not concern you that he might be the cause for weakening someone else's testimony of the brethren. Lots of that going around these days and I do not understand the saints who cannot see the risk to the soul of those who undermine the brethren and the risk to those who might be persuaded by their conversation.

Perhaps I am the putz, or just plain stupid. Maybe I come off in your book as harsh and critical but I would rather stand here as the stupid, harsh critical, putz of dubious social talent but be all those things in testimony and defense of the brethren than to fly under the radar by limiting my critical comments to the brethren as it seems is more common.

There are others such as Finrock and a few others who know better and I am simply the voice to offset their bad manners.

I didn't really find it undermining or disrespectful. But I also don't think that there's a single person on the earth that's better than I, nor am I better than anyone else. I think this is how the Lord intends his people to be, whether they are apostle or Baptist. I can't put words into Fin's mouth, but those were my thoughts when I read his words. I let myself be guided by the spirit as often as possible. Fin's comments have never made me feel as though the spirit were not also with him. I can't say I've read everything he's ever written. I do not know him enough to want to defend him, but I can tell you this: I feel Christ when I read his words and I can feel goodness, but your words make me feel darkness. I don't think our Savior would have us be as harsh as you are. That's why I ask what has happened in your past to make you this way. Someone must have done you wrong at some point and this is how you make up for it. I hope you can find peace with whatever it is so you no longer have that wedge between you and the Savior.

Well, there is no question that I am a flawed character in many ways and at times I can be too direct for many. ?(Harsh as you would say)However as far as my past, I have led a charmed life in many respects. I have never had anyone that I can recollect do anything to me that was even in the least bit harmful. I realize it may disappoint you that I wasn't beat up in some dark alley somewhere at least once in my life....which reminds me there was that time in fourth grade on the playground when Eva Whitlock kicked my booty. Scarred me for life I'm sure.

However, truth be told, in spite of others in my family having had some unfortunate things happen to them, the Lord has always blessed me to always be somewhere else when things were going sideways.

As for Finrock, I'm not inclined to say that everything he says is wrong, a lot of it but not all of it. In fact I practically never engage Finrock since our interaction on this thread here where he proved himself to be untruthful several times over:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45629

I now only show up for the most part to counter his overwhelming negativity for the Brethren - his stand on the General Authorities is pretty much peppered throughout the forum.

If his statement and the dripping sarcasm it showcased did not bother you then there is cause for you to review your own allegiances. No person who claims the Apostles and Prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ are misled, knows Jesus Christ. If those where your thoughts then I can see why you find light in his words and why we will find ourselves on the opposite sides of many discussions as has been the case.

[Red]

What is it from your past, BRLenox, that makes you speak so harshly to others? And pass judgment so quickly? Why are you so sharp? I see sparks of inspired moments and then weird judgments out of left field that don't mesh with the inspiration. Sometimes I see sentiments that you share with Finrock and other times i feel like Rewcox has returned. It's very confusing.

First, that you compare me to rewcox is quite a compliment - another TBM that was not ever critical of the Brethren.
:ymsick: :-BD
I suspect that my first response should own up to the fact that I am a putz in certain situations. (maybe all the time) I can be painfully patient with those who are innocent in knowledge and who err on the part of ignorance. However, there is one style of response that I can be quick and fierce in my defense.

It has ever been my pattern, practice, preference, passion to testify of the distinct and singular brethren that have been called to lead this church. Most often my harshest tone is in response to those who should know better, who have adequate understanding, or who make certain claims like having their calling and election made sure, that then turn around and willingly allow Satan to guide their tongue in defamation of the Apostles and prophets and make liars of themselves.

I am of course surprised why anyone seems oblivious to the fact that they seem to not be able to pass up the opportunity to put down the brethren. Take Finrock for instance, sometimes he can participate in a discussion and seem a reasonable sort. However, practically everytime any sort or support for the brethren is manifest he cannot, simply cannot stop himself from commenting. Always negative and undermining.

Now the question I ask you is why his response, obviously undermining and disrespectful, skirting under your particular line of offense. Why are you not asking him why is he so bent on speaking evil of he Lords anointed. Why does it not matter to you that he is acting on the part of a burgeoning apostate tendency and that he does this unfailingly. Why does it not concern you that he might be the cause for weakening someone else's testimony of the brethren. Lots of that going around these days and I do not understand the saints who cannot see the risk to the soul of those who undermine the brethren and the risk to those who might be persuaded by their conversation.

Perhaps I am the putz, or just plain stupid. Maybe I come off in your book as harsh and critical but I would rather stand here as the stupid, harsh critical, putz of dubious social talent but be all those things in testimony and defense of the brethren than to fly under the radar by limiting my critical comments to the brethren as it seems is more common.

There are others such as Finrock and a few others who know better and I am simply the voice to offset their bad manners.

I didn't really find it undermining or disrespectful. But I also don't think that there's a single person on the earth that's better than I, nor am I better than anyone else. I think this is how the Lord intends his people to be, whether they are apostle or Baptist. I can't put words into Fin's mouth, but those were my thoughts when I read his words. I let myself be guided by the spirit as often as possible. Fin's comments have never made me feel as though the spirit were not also with him. I can't say I've read everything he's ever written. I do not know him enough to want to defend him, but I can tell you this: I feel Christ when I read his words and I can feel goodness, but your words make me feel darkness. I don't think our Savior would have us be as harsh as you are. That's why I ask what has happened in your past to make you this way. Someone must have done you wrong at some point and this is how you make up for it. I hope you can find peace with whatever it is so you no longer have that wedge between you and the Savior.

Well, there is no question that I am a flawed character in many ways and at times I can be too direct for many. ?(Harsh as you would say)However as far as my past, I have led a charmed life in many respects. I have never had anyone that I can recollect do anything to me that was even in the least bit harmful. I realize it may disappoint you that I wasn't beat up in some dark alley somewhere at least once in my life....which reminds me there was that time in fourth grade on the playground when Eva Whitlock kicked my booty. Scarred me for life I'm sure.

However, truth be told, in spite of others in my family having had some unfortunate things happen to them, the Lord has always blessed me to always be somewhere else when things were going sideways.

As for Finrock, I'm not inclined to say that everything he says is wrong, a lot of it but not all of it. In fact I practically never engage Finrock since our interaction on this thread here where he proved himself to be untruthful several times over:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45629

I now only show up for the most part to counter his overwhelming negativity for the Brethren - his stand on the General Authorities is pretty much peppered throughout the forum.

If his statement and the dripping sarcasm it showcased did not bother you then there is cause for you to review your own allegiances. No person who claims the Apostles and Prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ are misled, knows Jesus Christ. If those where your thoughts then I can see why you find light in his words and why we will find ourselves on the opposite sides of many discussions as has been the case.

You said misled. Did you mean they make mistakes? Or maybe that's what your brain said that Fin was saying. Fin (and correct me if I'm wrong because I'm generalizing what I know he usually says) says they make mistakes. The prophet and apostles are not perfect. They make mistakes. They made a mistake when they ex-ed Avraham Gileadi. Be careful putting prophets and apostles on pedestals, as they have not died for a remission of our sins. You sound like you worship them. (Note that I didn't say you DID worship them. I know where you're going with your thoughts, haha).

[brlenox]

First, that you compare me to rewcox is quite a compliment - another TBM that was not ever critical of the Brethren.
:ymsick: :-BD
I suspect that my first response should own up to the fact that I am a putz in certain situations. (maybe all the time) I can be painfully patient with those who are innocent in knowledge and who err on the part of ignorance. However, there is one style of response that I can be quick and fierce in my defense.

It has ever been my pattern, practice, preference, passion to testify of the distinct and singular brethren that have been called to lead this church. Most often my harshest tone is in response to those who should know better, who have adequate understanding, or who make certain claims like having their calling and election made sure, that then turn around and willingly allow Satan to guide their tongue in defamation of the Apostles and prophets and make liars of themselves.

I am of course surprised why anyone seems oblivious to the fact that they seem to not be able to pass up the opportunity to put down the brethren. Take Finrock for instance, sometimes he can participate in a discussion and seem a reasonable sort. However, practically everytime any sort or support for the brethren is manifest he cannot, simply cannot stop himself from commenting. Always negative and undermining.

Now the question I ask you is why his response, obviously undermining and disrespectful, skirting under your particular line of offense. Why are you not asking him why is he so bent on speaking evil of he Lords anointed. Why does it not matter to you that he is acting on the part of a burgeoning apostate tendency and that he does this unfailingly. Why does it not concern you that he might be the cause for weakening someone else's testimony of the brethren. Lots of that going around these days and I do not understand the saints who cannot see the risk to the soul of those who undermine the brethren and the risk to those who might be persuaded by their conversation.

Perhaps I am the putz, or just plain stupid. Maybe I come off in your book as harsh and critical but I would rather stand here as the stupid, harsh critical, putz of dubious social talent but be all those things in testimony and defense of the brethren than to fly under the radar by limiting my critical comments to the brethren as it seems is more common.

There are others such as Finrock and a few others who know better and I am simply the voice to offset their bad manners.

I didn't really find it undermining or disrespectful. But I also don't think that there's a single person on the earth that's better than I, nor am I better than anyone else. I think this is how the Lord intends his people to be, whether they are apostle or Baptist. I can't put words into Fin's mouth, but those were my thoughts when I read his words. I let myself be guided by the spirit as often as possible. Fin's comments have never made me feel as though the spirit were not also with him. I can't say I've read everything he's ever written. I do not know him enough to want to defend him, but I can tell you this: I feel Christ when I read his words and I can feel goodness, but your words make me feel darkness. I don't think our Savior would have us be as harsh as you are. That's why I ask what has happened in your past to make you this way. Someone must have done you wrong at some point and this is how you make up for it. I hope you can find peace with whatever it is so you no longer have that wedge between you and the Savior.

Well, there is no question that I am a flawed character in many ways and at times I can be too direct for many. ?(Harsh as you would say)However as far as my past, I have led a charmed life in many respects. I have never had anyone that I can recollect do anything to me that was even in the least bit harmful. I realize it may disappoint you that I wasn't beat up in some dark alley somewhere at least once in my life....which reminds me there was that time in fourth grade on the playground when Eva Whitlock kicked my booty. Scarred me for life I'm sure.

However, truth be told, in spite of others in my family having had some unfortunate things happen to them, the Lord has always blessed me to always be somewhere else when things were going sideways.

As for Finrock, I'm not inclined to say that everything he says is wrong, a lot of it but not all of it. In fact I practically never engage Finrock since our interaction on this thread here where he proved himself to be untruthful several times over:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45629

I now only show up for the most part to counter his overwhelming negativity for the Brethren - his stand on the General Authorities is pretty much peppered throughout the forum.

If his statement and the dripping sarcasm it showcased did not bother you then there is cause for you to review your own allegiances. No person who claims the Apostles and Prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ are misled, knows Jesus Christ. If those where your thoughts then I can see why you find light in his words and why we will find ourselves on the opposite sides of many discussions as has been the case.

You said misled. Did you mean they make mistakes? Or maybe that's what your brain said that Fin was saying. Fin (and correct me if I'm wrong because I'm generalizing what I know he usually says) says they make mistakes. The prophet and apostles are not perfect. They make mistakes. They made a mistake when they ex-ed Avraham Gileadi. Be careful putting prophets and apostles on pedestals, as they have not died for a remission of our sins. You sound like you worship them. (Note that I didn't say you DID worship them. I know where you're going with your thoughts, haha).

I have noted that you are not always good with context. However, test out your skills by reading the statement Finrock made and you should be able to see that his context is that they were wrong.

"True. Could be that he is innocent of wrong doing and a mistake was made.

-Finrock

And this fabulous followup:

Yeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock

Where the context falls apart is that when the twelve gather in consideration of this type of event and most others in consideration of the church they are seeking the will of the Lord. To imply that they all as a group made a mistake is to say that they were misled in their efforts to find the will of the Lord. My perspective is that it is impossible that the brethren would not be able to hear and understand the spirit. In your critiques of my harshness as not being Christlike, and I do not dispute the possibility, do you suspect he would say what Finrock said and what you thought was acceptable to his apostles and prophets?

[Red]

I didn't really find it undermining or disrespectful. But I also don't think that there's a single person on the earth that's better than I, nor am I better than anyone else. I think this is how the Lord intends his people to be, whether they are apostle or Baptist. I can't put words into Fin's mouth, but those were my thoughts when I read his words. I let myself be guided by the spirit as often as possible. Fin's comments have never made me feel as though the spirit were not also with him. I can't say I've read everything he's ever written. I do not know him enough to want to defend him, but I can tell you this: I feel Christ when I read his words and I can feel goodness, but your words make me feel darkness. I don't think our Savior would have us be as harsh as you are. That's why I ask what has happened in your past to make you this way. Someone must have done you wrong at some point and this is how you make up for it. I hope you can find peace with whatever it is so you no longer have that wedge between you and the Savior.

Well, there is no question that I am a flawed character in many ways and at times I can be too direct for many. ?(Harsh as you would say)However as far as my past, I have led a charmed life in many respects. I have never had anyone that I can recollect do anything to me that was even in the least bit harmful. I realize it may disappoint you that I wasn't beat up in some dark alley somewhere at least once in my life....which reminds me there was that time in fourth grade on the playground when Eva Whitlock kicked my booty. Scarred me for life I'm sure.

However, truth be told, in spite of others in my family having had some unfortunate things happen to them, the Lord has always blessed me to always be somewhere else when things were going sideways.

As for Finrock, I'm not inclined to say that everything he says is wrong, a lot of it but not all of it. In fact I practically never engage Finrock since our interaction on this thread here where he proved himself to be untruthful several times over:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45629

I now only show up for the most part to counter his overwhelming negativity for the Brethren - his stand on the General Authorities is pretty much peppered throughout the forum.

If his statement and the dripping sarcasm it showcased did not bother you then there is cause for you to review your own allegiances. No person who claims the Apostles and Prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ are misled, knows Jesus Christ. If those where your thoughts then I can see why you find light in his words and why we will find ourselves on the opposite sides of many discussions as has been the case.

You said misled. Did you mean they make mistakes? Or maybe that's what your brain said that Fin was saying. Fin (and correct me if I'm wrong because I'm generalizing what I know he usually says) says they make mistakes. The prophet and apostles are not perfect. They make mistakes. They made a mistake when they ex-ed Avraham Gileadi. Be careful putting prophets and apostles on pedestals, as they have not died for a remission of our sins. You sound like you worship them. (Note that I didn't say you DID worship them. I know where you're going with your thoughts, haha).

I have noted that you are not always good with context. However, test out your skills by reading the statement Finrock made and you should be able to see that his context is that they were wrong.

"True. Could be that he is innocent of wrong doing and a mistake was made.

-Finrock

And this fabulous followup:

Yeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock

Where the context falls apart is that when the twelve gather in consideration of this type of event and most others in consideration of the church they are seeking the will of the Lord. To imply that they all as a group made a mistake is to say that they were misled in their efforts to find the will of the Lord. My perspective is that is categorically impossible. In your critiques of my harshness as not being Christlike, and I do not dispute the possibility, do you suspect he would say what Finrock said and what you thought was acceptable to his apostles and prophets? Probably not...

Lol, you don't even know me but you said I'm not good with context. Dear Lord, how did I ever manage to graduate with honors in English Literature?

Yes, they can make a mistake as a group. It is certainly possible. It doesn't make a difference if it is true or not because it is most certainly possible.

You didn't address the misled vs mistakes, which likely means that subconsciously you know Fin is right.

In answer to your last question: yes. At least, I think yes. Your question wasn't entirely clear.

Truth be told, you're so rude that I keep waiting for you to say I'm fat, or ugly, but then I remember we don't know one another in real life. I suppose I'll just endure your stabs at my intellect for no apparent reason other than it's the easiest target to hit when you've run out of ammunition.

He sees, though he is blind.

[brlenox]

Well, there is no question that I am a flawed character in many ways and at times I can be too direct for many. ?(Harsh as you would say)However as far as my past, I have led a charmed life in many respects. I have never had anyone that I can recollect do anything to me that was even in the least bit harmful. I realize it may disappoint you that I wasn't beat up in some dark alley somewhere at least once in my life....which reminds me there was that time in fourth grade on the playground when Eva Whitlock kicked my booty. Scarred me for life I'm sure.

However, truth be told, in spite of others in my family having had some unfortunate things happen to them, the Lord has always blessed me to always be somewhere else when things were going sideways.

As for Finrock, I'm not inclined to say that everything he says is wrong, a lot of it but not all of it. In fact I practically never engage Finrock since our interaction on this thread here where he proved himself to be untruthful several times over:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45629

I now only show up for the most part to counter his overwhelming negativity for the Brethren - his stand on the General Authorities is pretty much peppered throughout the forum.

If his statement and the dripping sarcasm it showcased did not bother you then there is cause for you to review your own allegiances. No person who claims the Apostles and Prophets of the Church of Jesus Christ are misled, knows Jesus Christ. If those where your thoughts then I can see why you find light in his words and why we will find ourselves on the opposite sides of many discussions as has been the case.

You said misled. Did you mean they make mistakes? Or maybe that's what your brain said that Fin was saying. Fin (and correct me if I'm wrong because I'm generalizing what I know he usually says) says they make mistakes. The prophet and apostles are not perfect. They make mistakes. They made a mistake when they ex-ed Avraham Gileadi. Be careful putting prophets and apostles on pedestals, as they have not died for a remission of our sins. You sound like you worship them. (Note that I didn't say you DID worship them. I know where you're going with your thoughts, haha).

I have noted that you are not always good with context. However, test out your skills by reading the statement Finrock made and you should be able to see that his context is that they were wrong.

"True. Could be that he is innocent of wrong doing and a mistake was made.

-Finrock

And this fabulous followup:

Yeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock

Where the context falls apart is that when the twelve gather in consideration of this type of event and most others in consideration of the church they are seeking the will of the Lord. To imply that they all as a group made a mistake is to say that they were misled in their efforts to find the will of the Lord. My perspective is that is categorically impossible. In your critiques of my harshness as not being Christlike, and I do not dispute the possibility, do you suspect he would say what Finrock said and what you thought was acceptable to his apostles and prophets? Probably not...

Lol, you don't even know me but you said I'm not good with context. Dear Lord, how did I ever manage to graduate with honors in English Literature?

Yes, they can make a mistake as a group. It is certainly possible. It doesn't make a difference if it is true or not because it is most certainly possible.

You didn't address the misled vs mistakes, which likely means that subconsciously you know Fin is right.

In answer to your last question: yes. At least, I think yes. Your question wasn't entirely clear.

Truth be told, you're so rude that I keep waiting for you to say I'm fat, or ugly, but then I remember we don't know one another in real life. I suppose I'll just endure your stabs at my intellect for no apparent reason other than it's the easiest target to hit when you've run out of ammunition.

He sees, though he is blind.

My comment was just an observation. You do have trouble with context. Think back to the conversation we had a couple of weeks ago and you said something I said was incorrect and then proceeded to illustrate what I said. You do that frequently. It is not a biggie just an observation. And as far as saying "I'm fat or ugly" well it is true, I am both fat and ugly. I mean the fat is obvious, and that I am ugly is kind of relative. I was always pretty average until I got fat and then I see that as a definite downturn. However, it has never really bothered me in terms of others acceptance. I am what I need to be and it has been a wonderful learning experience to have my health deteriorate and I can only be grateful.

You should really read the link I provided earlier and you'll see what the chances are of me thinking Fin was right really are. I'm sure you won't because that would rob you of your plausible deniability for not knowing the nature of the beast.

Again if you had gathered the context of my statements you would clearly understand that I meant misled. The point being that though he said mistake the context he placed it in should be construed as misled. I tried to explain that but that context got by you again.

Well nighty night.

[sushi_chef]

"From 2009 to 2014, Hamula was a member of the Pacific Area Presidency, headquartered in Auckland, New Zealand.
" sl tribune



life is a wonderful journey.
:-B

[LDS Physician]

Apart for the private particulars of this case, the manner in which this was handled from the Public Affairs department of the church leaves something to be desired.

First off we have the rather strange statement that this was not due to "disillusionment or apostasy". Since when is one excommunicated for disillusionment? But that is another issue.

However the greater problem here is that given the limited number of things one can be excommunicated for and given that the church statement ruled out one of the major ones, apostasy we are now down to just a few others. I think it is safe to say that this was not a case of murder, and it seem rather unlikely to me that a member of the 70 would have access to church funds that he could convert to his own use. A case of abuse would likely have landed in the courts prior to an excommunication so that seems not likely at all. This leads us to only one other place. So in attempting to tamp down rumours the PA department has only served to fuel them.

So how might this have been handled? A couple of things come to mind. They could have just released him and let the local Stake President deal with the matter. He could have been excommunicated and the new release simple state that he had been released from his calling for personal reasons and never mentioned the excommunication at all, it really isn't a public issue anyway.

But as it stands the way this was done would seem to add to the pain inflicted on hime and his family's and invite the worse sort of rumour mongering.

Thank goodness the world is blessed with your presence and wisdom, seeing that your unique gifts have led you to grace us with a critique on how the First Presidency and 12 apostles chose to handle this situation.

The only prophet, his counselors, and 12 apostles of the Lord...think about what you're saying.

Yeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock

Didn't say that at all...I was just pointing out that the 15 who sat in counsel with this guy know a lot more about the situation than gkearney and who, because of their positions and stewardships, are much more likely to have inspiration in regards to how to handle the situation both in private and in the public realm than a guy commenting on their actions worlds away from the facts of the case.

I said nothing about them being above reproach. Nor did I say that it is a sin to question any of their decisions. I also never insinuated that they are beyond mortal frailties. Bitterness is getting the best of you, Finrock.

Hearing you spout sarcastic vitriol towards the brethren for no good reason in this particular case is no surprise.

[Red]

You said misled. Did you mean they make mistakes? Or maybe that's what your brain said that Fin was saying. Fin (and correct me if I'm wrong because I'm generalizing what I know he usually says) says they make mistakes. The prophet and apostles are not perfect. They make mistakes. They made a mistake when they ex-ed Avraham Gileadi. Be careful putting prophets and apostles on pedestals, as they have not died for a remission of our sins. You sound like you worship them. (Note that I didn't say you DID worship them. I know where you're going with your thoughts, haha).

I have noted that you are not always good with context. However, test out your skills by reading the statement Finrock made and you should be able to see that his context is that they were wrong.

"True. Could be that he is innocent of wrong doing and a mistake was made.

-Finrock

And this fabulous followup:

Yeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock

Where the context falls apart is that when the twelve gather in consideration of this type of event and most others in consideration of the church they are seeking the will of the Lord. To imply that they all as a group made a mistake is to say that they were misled in their efforts to find the will of the Lord. My perspective is that is categorically impossible. In your critiques of my harshness as not being Christlike, and I do not dispute the possibility, do you suspect he would say what Finrock said and what you thought was acceptable to his apostles and prophets? Probably not...

Lol, you don't even know me but you said I'm not good with context. Dear Lord, how did I ever manage to graduate with honors in English Literature?

Yes, they can make a mistake as a group. It is certainly possible. It doesn't make a difference if it is true or not because it is most certainly possible.

You didn't address the misled vs mistakes, which likely means that subconsciously you know Fin is right.

In answer to your last question: yes. At least, I think yes. Your question wasn't entirely clear.

Truth be told, you're so rude that I keep waiting for you to say I'm fat, or ugly, but then I remember we don't know one another in real life. I suppose I'll just endure your stabs at my intellect for no apparent reason other than it's the easiest target to hit when you've run out of ammunition.

He sees, though he is blind.

My comment was just an observation. You do have trouble with context. Think back to the conversation we had a couple of weeks ago and you said something I said was incorrect and then proceeded to illustrate what I said. You do that frequently. It is not a biggie just an observation. And as far as saying "I'm fat or ugly" well it is true, I am both fat and ugly. I mean the fat is obvious, and that I am ugly is kind of relative. I was always pretty average until I got fat and then I see that as a definite downturn. However, it has never really bothered me in terms of others acceptance. I am what I need to be and it has been a wonderful learning experience to have my health deteriorate and I can only be grateful.

You should really read the link I provided earlier and you'll see what the chances are of me thinking Fin was right really are. I'm sure you won't because that would rob you of your plausible deniability for not knowing the nature of the beast.

Again if you had gathered the context of my statements you would clearly understand that I meant misled. The point being that though he said mistake the context he placed it in should be construed as misled. I tried to explain that but that context got by you again.

Well nighty night.

:)) seriously, I. Can't. Even.

[gkearney]

Apart for the private particulars of this case, the manner in which this was handled from the Public Affairs department of the church leaves something to be desired.

First off we have the rather strange statement that this was not due to "disillusionment or apostasy". Since when is one excommunicated for disillusionment? But that is another issue.

However the greater problem here is that given the limited number of things one can be excommunicated for and given that the church statement ruled out one of the major ones, apostasy we are now down to just a few others. I think it is safe to say that this was not a case of murder, and it seem rather unlikely to me that a member of the 70 would have access to church funds that he could convert to his own use. A case of abuse would likely have landed in the courts prior to an excommunication so that seems not likely at all. This leads us to only one other place. So in attempting to tamp down rumours the PA department has only served to fuel them.

So how might this have been handled? A couple of things come to mind. They could have just released him and let the local Stake President deal with the matter. He could have been excommunicated and the new release simple state that he had been released from his calling for personal reasons and never mentioned the excommunication at all, it really isn't a public issue anyway.

But as it stands the way this was done would seem to add to the pain inflicted on hime and his family's and invite the worse sort of rumour mongering.

Thank goodness the world is blessed with your presence and wisdom, seeing that your unique gifts have led you to grace us with a critique on how the First Presidency and 12 apostles chose to handle this situation.

The only prophet, his counselors, and 12 apostles of the Lord...think about what you're saying.

My comments were not directed at the prophet, his counsellors, and 12 apostles, my comments were directed at the Public Affairs department of the church and the rather indelicate manner in which all of this was transmitted to the public. The prophet, his counsellors, and 12 apostles did what they felt needed to be done under the circumstances and I sustain them in that. I have not however been asked to sustain the church employees of the Public Affairs department whose actions are open to commentary.

[LDS Physician]

I'm fairly certain that in such a matter the prophet, his counselors, and the 12 apostles would be quite involved in what the Public Affairs department put out. In any case, my apologies if I implied untruth!