Mysteries of the Kingdom

[inho]

The three figures in the Garden were Elohim, Yahovah and Michael. So, If Yahovah is Jesus Christ, the Son. And Michael is Adam or God the Father, then who is Elohim.

I think it is fascinating how many different versions of Adam-God belief there are. As I have understand it, most people believing in AG think that Jehovah is not the same as Jesus.

If not Jesus, then who?

This is not my personal belief, so I don't like to defend it. But since I started to talk about this, I guess I should answer you.

Elohim, Jehovah, Michael and Jesus are four generations.

Edward Stevenson wrote the following March, 1896, of having had "more pleasure than usual with a deep talk with Pres. L. Snow on the subject"; others spoke of discussions in October 1897 and January 1899, in addition to the December 1897 deliberations mentioned in the text. As to the identities and relative standing of the personages under discussion, Stevenson wrote in his diary for February 28, 1896: "Certainly Heloheim, and Jehovah stands before Adam, or else I am very much mistaken. Then 1st Heloheim 2d Jehovah, 3d Michael-Adam, 4th Jesus Christ, Our Elder Brother, in the other World from whence our spirits come ... Then Who is Jehovah? The only begoton Son of Heloheim on Jehovahs world." This is in essence what Brigham told the School of the Prophets nearly three decades earlier.

Buerger, The Adam-God Doctrine (Dialogue Vol 15, No. 1)

One needs to also understand that it basically only since Talmage when the title Jehovah has been used solely for Jesus in the church. In the early days, there was some flexibility in the use of names Elohim and Jehovah (see Kirkland Jehovah as the Father, Elohim and Jehovah in the Mormonism and the Bible, or Davis & Hoskinsson Usage of the Title "Elohim")

One could think that the endowment would make it clear that Jehovah is Jesus, but those believing in Adam-God doctrine say that the endowment has been changed, and that they used to be separate. As evidence, they quote things like this:

[The St. George Temple veil ceremony] probably was not the first time Adam-God had been mentioned in the endowment ceremony. Although official temple scripts do not exist prior to 1877, several unfriendly published accounts of the Endowment House ceremony contain cast listings and dialogues of different characters during the creation scene for Elohim, Jehovah, Jesus, and Michael (Hyde 1857, 92-93; Remy and Brenchley 1861, 2:67-68; Waite 1866, 246-49, 252; Beadle 1870, 486, 489-91; Young 1876, 357).

Buerger, The Development of the Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony (Dialogue, Vol 20, No. 4)

Since you seem to believe the Adam-God doctrine, I'm surprised that you don't know this stuff. It seems that you haven't studied the issue in depth. Maybe if you did study it more, that could change your views.

[Doug]

Who is Edward Stevenson that I should take his word over Brigham's, does he have stewardship over Brigham?
Who visited the earth was a First Presidency, that being 3 members not 4, Brigham made that clear.
And he named the three, not the four, the three, and he told us who they are,
father, son, grand son which is also grand father , father (The Father), and son (The Son).
If you chose to believe Edward Stevenson's account of what Brigham said, OK.
But I chose to believe Brigham's account of what Brigham said.

[Doug]

inho, I owe you an apology, I miss read your statement that it is NOT your belief.
I am sorry, I will pay better attention from now on.

[inho]

Who is Edward Stevenson that I should take his word over Brigham's, does he have stewardship over Brigham?
Who visited the earth was a First Presidency, that being 3 members not 4, Brigham made that clear.
And he named the three, not the four, the three, and he told us who they are,
father, son, grand son which is also grand father , father (The Father), and son (The Son).
If you chose to believe Edward Stevenson's account of what Brigham said, OK.
But I chose to believe Brigham's account of what Brigham said.

I think that all who believes in AG would agree that the Earth was organized by Elohim, Jehovah and Michael. That is, these three (not four) are the First Presidency of the creation. This presidency does not include Holy Ghost, and depending on whom you ask, it does not include Jesus either. You quoted BY saying “Elohim, Jehovah and Michael were father, Son and grandson." Most people would understand that to mean that Jehovah is the son of Elohim and the father of Michael. You don't. And you are not alone, if you read Kirkland's article Jehovah as the Father, you might have noticed that George Q. Cannon believed in AG and yet he believed that Jehovah is Jesus. However, there are plenty of quotations that say the opposite (there is a whole chapter in Drew Briney's book Understandig Adam-God Teachings).

The whole thing is messy. There are several versions of Adam-God doctrine. Proponents of all the versions are able to quote BY and others to defend their view.

However, I myself am following Wilford Woodruffs counsel:

How much longer I shall talk to this people I do not know; but I want to say this to all Israel: Cease troubling yourselves about who God is; who Adam is, who Christ is, who Jehovah is. For heaven’s sake, let these things alone. Why trouble yourselves about these things? God has revealed himself and when the 121st Section of the Doctrine and Covenants is fulfilled, whether there be one God or many Gods, they will be revealed to the children of men, as well as all thrones and dominions, principalities, and powers. Then why trouble yourselves about these things? God is God. Christ is Christ. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost. That should be enough for you and me to know. If we want to know any more, wait till we get where God is in person. I say this because we are troubled every little while with inquiries from Elders anxious to know who God is, who Christ is, and who Adam is. I say to the Elders of Israel, stop this.

[Doug]

It is hard for me to think that Jesus would not be involved in the beginning of this world since he is it's savior. And, therefore it is his world. After it is Celestialized, it is where he will reside, just as The Father resides on the world he saved.

I think Wilford Woodruff's advice was very good for the time and for those who are not seeking. But there are other doctrines to learn that require a a much better understanding of the true nature of the Father and The Son. We learn line upon line. If we do not learn a particular line we will not be able to learn the next. As we approach the final days, more and more of what has been hidden will be revealed.

So, If I don't understand the that the next sphere for Christ is to be an Adam, meaning that after he saves a world for his father he will then Father a world by redeeming all except perdition by providing spirit bodies for all his children and then taking those children to a new world and providing physical bodies for them, then how will I know what will be expected of me. How can I continue to learn more of this great plan if I will not the true identities of those providing this great opertunity to participate in that plan.

At the time of Wilford Woodruff, the church was threatened with a lot of unbelief, even within the 12. For the Church to progress, it was more inportant that the contention over this and other doctrines subside that the doctrins be known and understood.

It is interesting that those who actually sat at the feet of Joseph and Brigham seem to say what Joseph and Brigham said. There were some temporary exceptions to that but those Apostles repented and were returned to full fellowship in the qourum.

There is indeed far more to study about Adam God than I have studied. Most of all that is second, third, fourth ... hand. When I have first hand and I understand it, I see no need for all the others. I have friends that have become so involved in knowing everything there is to know that the results is the same as if they refused to believe it all, their learning is damned, stop, blockaided. For me it's more like, OK, it's true, I still have some questions but it's true - what's next.

I guess I'm rambling on here but something inportamt to me is not just what is true, but why is it true. Like ther were three(what) because they are a presidency(why). OK, that rings true. The Plan of Salvation is reasonable, meaning it can be reasoned out keven enough hints.

inho, Thnks for sharing,
Doug

[Juliet]

If you find yourself thinking about the mysteries, then maybe that is the Holy Spirit's way of putting it on your heart to prepare you to be taught something new, that you have never thought of before. Those small little insights are so incredible and are just another brick of the house you are building. When you have the proper foundation built upon the rock of Jesus Christ, then you can start building your house of knowledge until it reaches high into the heavens.

[freedomforall]

I'm not claiming all of this to be true, but I am claiming that this info makes more sense than any other. I read most of this and find it interesting, but have no confirmation of it being fact.

Jehovah/Jesus Christ is the literal son of God the Father, spiritually and physically as we all are.
Jehovah/Christ is the Only begotten Son of God the Father, being created by God the Father in spirit and born in the flesh through Mary, his earthly mother.

Michael is another offspring of God the Father in spirit, of whom, was born via copulation by God the Father and Heavenly Mother and then placed on this earth as Adam, thus, he is not a resurrected being, has never had a body prior to this earth and Eve likewise.

Now, if God the Father has the name of Adam, then we could reasonably say Adam-God.
Then we have Adam, a son named Adam, of whom is Michael, then we have Adam Senior and Adam Junior.

Then years and years later Jesus was born in the flesh. he being Jehovah, having spoken to the brother of Jared and stating that he, himself, was being looked upon in his spirit form, and he told the brother of Jared that he was coming into the world the next day.

So now we have God the Father (Adam Sr?)), Adam/Michael (Adam Jr?) and Jehovah/Christ.

This is what I got out of this article. You decide for yourself.

The article does not cover this tidbit.

But remember 1st Cor in relation to another individual referred to as Adam:

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

D&C 84:16
16 And from Enoch to Abel, who was slain by the conspiracy of his brother, who received the priesthood by the commandments of God, by the hand of his father Adam, who was the first man—

Rom. 5:14
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

figure....GR type, pattern. 1 Cor. 15:45. (above)

John 5:21
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

and:

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

So, here is the website:

ADAM - GOD Elden Watson

Please enjoy!

[Doug]

I'm not claiming all of this to be true, but I am claiming that this info makes more sense than any other. I read most of this and find it interesting, but have no confirmation of it being fact.

Jehovah/Jesus Christ is the literal son of God the Father, spiritually and physically as we all are.
Jehovah/Christ is the Only begotten Son of God the Father, being created by God the Father in spirit and born in the flesh through Mary, his earthly mother.

Michael is another offspring of God the Father in spirit, of whom, was born via copulation by God the Father and Heavenly Mother and then placed on this earth as Adam, thus, he is not a resurrected being, has never had a body prior to this earth and Eve likewise.

Now, if God the Father has the name of Adam, then we could reasonably say Adam-God.
Then we have Adam, a son named Adam, of whom is Michael, then we have Adam Senior and Adam Junior.

Then years and years later Jesus was born in the flesh. he being Jehovah, having spoken to the brother of Jared and stating that he, himself, was being looked upon in his spirit form, and he told the brother of Jared that he was coming into the world the next day.

So now we have God the Father (Adam Sr?)), Adam/Michael (Adam Jr?) and Jehovah/Christ.

This is what I got out of this article. You decide for yourself.

The article does not cover this tidbit.

But remember 1st Cor in relation to another individual referred to as Adam:

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

D&C 84:16
16 And from Enoch to Abel, who was slain by the conspiracy of his brother, who received the priesthood by the commandments of God, by the hand of his father Adam, who was the first man—

Rom. 5:14
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

figure....GR type, pattern. 1 Cor. 15:45. (above)

John 5:21
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

and:

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

So, here is the website:

ADAM - GOD Elden Watson

Please enjoy!

I've met with Eldon Watson to discuss his paper, Again, I would stick to what was written by those who sat at the feet of Joseph.
Eldon scared me right out of his house, couldn't get out of there quick enough.

There is an interesting thing I see in people like Eldon, if they don't agree with or undertand what Brigahm et al, said, they tend to make something up. Sidney Rigdon would do that.

[Alaris]

Father son father son

Abram Isaac Jacob Joseph

Abraham Isaac Israel Joseph

Father of nations, sacrificial son, father of tribes, savior of his people

Elohim, Jesus, Adam,...? Davidic Servant maybe

Father of creations, only begotten sacrificial son, father of mankind, temporal savior of Israel... his people

Father son father son is a great sign and symbol of the heavenly hierarchy imho.

[freedomforall]

I'm not claiming all of this to be true, but I am claiming that this info makes more sense than any other. I read most of this and find it interesting, but have no confirmation of it being fact.

Jehovah/Jesus Christ is the literal son of God the Father, spiritually and physically as we all are.
Jehovah/Christ is the Only begotten Son of God the Father, being created by God the Father in spirit and born in the flesh through Mary, his earthly mother.

Michael is another offspring of God the Father in spirit, of whom, was born via copulation by God the Father and Heavenly Mother and then placed on this earth as Adam, thus, he is not a resurrected being, has never had a body prior to this earth and Eve likewise.

Now, if God the Father has the name of Adam, then we could reasonably say Adam-God.
Then we have Adam, a son named Adam, of whom is Michael, then we have Adam Senior and Adam Junior.

Then years and years later Jesus was born in the flesh. he being Jehovah, having spoken to the brother of Jared and stating that he, himself, was being looked upon in his spirit form, and he told the brother of Jared that he was coming into the world the next day.

So now we have God the Father (Adam Sr?)), Adam/Michael (Adam Jr?) and Jehovah/Christ.

This is what I got out of this article. You decide for yourself.

The article does not cover this tidbit.

But remember 1st Cor in relation to another individual referred to as Adam:

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

D&C 84:16
16 And from Enoch to Abel, who was slain by the conspiracy of his brother, who received the priesthood by the commandments of God, by the hand of his father Adam, who was the first man—

Rom. 5:14
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

figure....GR type, pattern. 1 Cor. 15:45. (above)

John 5:21
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

and:

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

So, here is the website:

ADAM - GOD Elden Watson

Please enjoy!

I've met with Eldon Watson to discuss his paper, Again, I would stick to what was written by those who sat at the feet of Joseph.
Eldon scared me right out of his house, couldn't get out of there quick enough.

There is an interesting thing I see in people like Eldon, if they don't agree with or undertand what Brigahm et al, said, they tend to make something up. Sidney Rigdon would do that.

I'm not going to discard Eldon's version, it is about as good as anyone's I've ever heard, and actually makes more sense. In my heart I know that the Majesty on High and Adam are not the same person in body or any other way. Eldon's arguments are always backed by scripture, not JS or BY solely. This is the reason I like his version more than any other. He explains the erroneous doctrines coming forth and why they are of no value. What more can I say? :-ss
I also find that once a person reads the words of someone else long enough, they begin to believe it to the point of discrediting anyone else's ideas and studies. I also believe that for anyone believing the words of other than God's written words, it is dangerous ground to be on. Even prophets can be off track unless they are acting as a prophet and say "thus saith the Lord.
Let me clue you in on something. If people think that every word out of Joseph Smith's mouth as well as Brigham Young's can be taken to the bank, this is also a mistake.
Today, in our church, we hear it said that "next to Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith did more to bring the church along (not verbatim). But since you hang on everything you read that JS, BY or whoever said in yesteryear, let me give you something to try to reconcile.

SEE: https://carm.org/joseph-smith-boasted

We read: God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

So, which account is the truth?

Apparently, some things said by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were misconstrued and written to mean other than what they meant. Therefore, I stick with the scriptures and glean from them, not the writings of men that cannot be understood and plainly presented for the purpose of learning facts and truth.

[Doug]

I'm not claiming all of this to be true, but I am claiming that this info makes more sense than any other. I read most of this and find it interesting, but have no confirmation of it being fact.

Jehovah/Jesus Christ is the literal son of God the Father, spiritually and physically as we all are.
Jehovah/Christ is the Only begotten Son of God the Father, being created by God the Father in spirit and born in the flesh through Mary, his earthly mother.

Michael is another offspring of God the Father in spirit, of whom, was born via copulation by God the Father and Heavenly Mother and then placed on this earth as Adam, thus, he is not a resurrected being, has never had a body prior to this earth and Eve likewise.

Now, if God the Father has the name of Adam, then we could reasonably say Adam-God.
Then we have Adam, a son named Adam, of whom is Michael, then we have Adam Senior and Adam Junior.

Then years and years later Jesus was born in the flesh. he being Jehovah, having spoken to the brother of Jared and stating that he, himself, was being looked upon in his spirit form, and he told the brother of Jared that he was coming into the world the next day.

So now we have God the Father (Adam Sr?)), Adam/Michael (Adam Jr?) and Jehovah/Christ.

This is what I got out of this article. You decide for yourself.

The article does not cover this tidbit.

But remember 1st Cor in relation to another individual referred to as Adam:

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

D&C 84:16
16 And from Enoch to Abel, who was slain by the conspiracy of his brother, who received the priesthood by the commandments of God, by the hand of his father Adam, who was the first man—

Rom. 5:14
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

figure....GR type, pattern. 1 Cor. 15:45. (above)

John 5:21
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

and:

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

So, here is the website:

ADAM - GOD Elden Watson

Please enjoy!

I've met with Eldon Watson to discuss his paper, Again, I would stick to what was written by those who sat at the feet of Joseph.
Eldon scared me right out of his house, couldn't get out of there quick enough.

There is an interesting thing I see in people like Eldon, if they don't agree with or undertand what Brigahm et al, said, they tend to make something up. Sidney Rigdon would do that.

I'm not going to discard Eldon's version, it is about as good as anyone's I've ever heard, and actually makes more sense. In my heart I know that the Majesty on High and Adam are not the same person in body or any other way. Eldon's arguments are always backed by scripture, not JS or BY solely. This is the reason I like his version more than any other. He explains the erroneous doctrines coming forth and why they are of no value. What more can I say? :-ss
I also find that once a person reads the words of someone else long enough, they begin to believe it to the point of discrediting anyone else's ideas and studies. I also believe that for anyone believing the words of other than God's written words, it is dangerous ground to be on. Even prophets can be off track unless they are acting as a prophet and say "thus saith the Lord.
Let me clue you in on something. If people think that every word out of Joseph Smith's mouth as well as Brigham Young's can be taken to the bank, this is also a mistake.
Today, in our church, we hear it said that "next to Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith did more to bring the church along (not verbatim). But since you hang on everything you read that JS, BY or whoever said in yesteryear, let me give you something to try to reconcile.

SEE: https://carm.org/joseph-smith-boasted

We read: God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

So, which account is the truth?

Apparently, some things said by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were misconstrued and written to mean other than what they meant. Therefore, I stick with the scriptures and glean from them, not the writings of men that cannot be understood and plainly presented for the purpose of learning facts and truth.

The point of discussion my friend and I had with Eldon was where in the scriptures is there a mention of Adam Sr. and Adam Jr.. He had only one, I really wish I remembered the reference, but his interpretation of that scripture was way off base. When we told him that is how we felt and how authorities understood that scriptures, the room darkened and we left.
If you find a reference too Both Adam Sr. and Adam Jr. in the D&C, I would like to see it.

As per Brigham's writings not understood or not clear, I have 230 quotes from the prophets of this dispensation both for and against Adam God. But I have not found a way to share a .pdf on this forum. If there was I would be delighted to add it to the record of discussions here. But with all 230 quotes, both for and against, the preponderance of the evidence painted a pretty clear picture, at least in my mind.

[freedomforall]

If you find a reference too Both Adam Sr. and Adam Jr. in the D&C, I would like to see it.

As per Brigham's writings not understood or not clear, I have 230 quotes from the prophets of this dispensation both for and against Adam God. But I have not found a way to share a .pdf on this forum. If there was I would be delighted to add it to the record of discussions here. But with all 230 quotes, both for and against, the preponderance of the evidence painted a pretty clear picture, at least in my mind.

I'm sorry but 230 quotes mean nothing to me. I, in turn, would like you to show me anywhere in the panoply of scripture where we are told that God the Father is anywhere near of being Adam. And show me where it says that Adam is other than the Father of all living. In this sense he is our father but not as our God! The statement "Father Adam" is correct because he is the father of all living and nothing more in this sense. He is, however, Michael, the Ancient of days, the same who will lead his armies against Satan and his armies in the battle of Gog and Magog after the Millennium.

You know what? It really doesn't matter who God is in name, the plan of salvation is pretty well laid out in scripture.

There is only one life for each individual, because a body and spirit cannot be separated again after leaving this earth. Therefore, Christ could, in no way, ever, ever come back to earth or any other world and become a sinner and acquire a new body.
Adam and Eve are not resurrected beings for the same reason.

It takes intent study as we read scripture in order to truly comprehend what we are taught.

Jesus is also a Father and Son, the Very Eternal Father...Mosiah 15:1-5...the creator of heaven and earth:

1 Nephi 17:36
36 Behold, the Lord (Christ/Jehovah )hath created the earth that it should be inhabited; and he hath created his children that they should possess it.

Isiah 45:18
18 For thus saith the Lord that (a)created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

(a) 8 a created...TG Jesus Christ, Creator.

We cannot use the words of others to wrest what we gain from the word of God.

What say ye?

[Doug]

If you find a reference too Both Adam Sr. and Adam Jr. in the D&C, I would like to see it.

As per Brigham's writings not understood or not clear, I have 230 quotes from the prophets of this dispensation both for and against Adam God. But I have not found a way to share a .pdf on this forum. If there was I would be delighted to add it to the record of discussions here. But with all 230 quotes, both for and against, the preponderance of the evidence painted a pretty clear picture, at least in my mind.

I'm sorry but 230 quotes mean nothing to me. I, in turn, would like you to show me anywhere in the panoply of scripture where we are told that God the Father is anywhere near of being Adam. And show me where it says that Adam is other than the Father of all living. In this sense he is our father but not as our God! The statement "Father Adam" is correct because he is the father of all living and nothing more in this sense. He is, however, Michael, the Ancient of days, the same who will lead his armies against Satan and his armies in the battle of Gog and Magog after the Millennium.

You know what? It really doesn't matter who God is in name, the plan of salvation is pretty well laid out in scripture.

There is only one life for each individual, because a body and spirit cannot be separated again after leaving this earth. Therefore, Christ could, in no way, ever, ever come back to earth or any other world and become a sinner and acquire a new body.
Adam and Eve are not resurrected beings for the same reason.

It takes intent study as we read scripture in order to truly comprehend what we are taught.

Jesus is also a Father and Son, the Very Eternal Father...Mosiah 15:1-5...the creator of heaven and earth:

1 Nephi 17:36
36 Behold, the Lord (Christ/Jehovah )hath created the earth that it should be inhabited; and he hath created his children that they should possess it.

Isiah 45:18
18 For thus saith the Lord that (a)created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

(a) 8 a created...TG Jesus Christ, Creator.

We cannot use the words of others to wrest what we gain from the word of God.

What say ye?

You are right, that is why some points of the Gospel had to be restored. Joseph Smith restored it and taught it. He also told us that Brigham Young was the best person to teach us about God. And that is what he did. And that is what the 230 quotes are about.

I have read in the FAQ that

What attachments are allowed on this board?
Each board administrator can allow or disallow certain attachment types. If you are unsure what is allowed to be uploaded, contact the board administrator for assistance.

So I'm asking.

But failing that, send me an email address in a private message and I'll send you the document.
If you decide to do so, I would prefer that you create a new yahoo/gmail/? address and send that to me.
That way, It is harder to blame me for any spam you get. I'll do the same for your protection.

[freedomforall]

So I'm asking.

But failing that, send me an email address in a private message and I'll send you the document.
If you decide to do so, I would prefer that you create a new yahoo/gmail/? address and send that to me.
That way, It is harder to blame me for any spam you get. I'll do the same for your protection.

Thank you, but I'll pass, it being my best choice.
Did you read the Joseph Smith quote from Church History from a few posts ago?

Give me one good reason why I should ignore scripture and put my trust in the words of man, especially wheres so much confusion and varying interpretations are involved?

[Doug]

You'll have to refresh my mind on that one.

It's curios to me that you'll give credence to Eldon Watson but not Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, et al.
Even more curios, I've said there are quotes both for and against, that you'll pass up an opportunity to prove me wrong with my own evidence.

[freedomforall]

You'll have to refresh my mind on that one.

It's curios to me that you'll give credence to Eldon Watson but not Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, et al.
Even more curios, I've said there are quotes both for and against, that you'll pass up an opportunity to prove me wrong with my own evidence.

Scripture is my evidence, and why anyone would allow any other words above them is beyond me. I don't need for and against as if in a court room. The short cut, the right way is to learn from scripture.

Now for the reminder.

Today, in our church, we hear it said that "next to Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith did more to bring the church along (not verbatim). But since you hang on everything you read that JS, BY or whoever said in yesteryear, let me give you something to try to reconcile.

SEE: https://carm.org/joseph-smith-boasted

We read: God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

So, which account is the truth?

When was hearsay ever declared as evidence? Why are un-canonized words ever used as evidence. It is all conjecture, right?

I did not give credence to Watson. I said it was the closest that I've read...not the same thing. I would really appreciate it if people would really read my statements and not jump to untrue conclusions.

[Doug]

I don't know how any testimony can be any clearer than these:

Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and
he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of
generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and
drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is
diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them,
according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for
their spiritual children. This is a key for you. The faithful will
become Gods, even the sons of God; but this does not overthrow the idea
that we have a father. Adam is my Father; (this I will explain to you
at some future time;) but it does not prove that he is not my father, if
I become a God: it does not prove that I have not a father.” (JD
6:274-275)

“One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is
in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God… [and] Our God
and Father in heaven… When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden,
he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his
wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is
MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have
written and spoken – He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with
whom WE have to do… I could tell you much more about this; but were I to
tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the
estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However,
I have told you the truth as far as I have gone… Jesus, our elder
brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the
Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may
hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat
them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or
damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but
a great deal more remains to be told… Treasure up these things in your
hearts.” (JD 1: 50-51, CAPITALS in the original.)

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam;
when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother
Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church
Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do
without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God.
Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal
History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally
written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is
based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being
the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word
for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when
Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite
literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The
Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and
is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December
16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

“Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as
Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true. Where
was Michael in the creation of this earth? Did he have a mission to the
earth? He did. Where was he? In the Grand Council, and performed the
mission assigned him there. Now, if it should happen that we have to
pay tribute to Father Adam, what a humiliating circumstance it would be!
Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass
him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of
the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys,
and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you
come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it
will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him
say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this
dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see
the white locks of Father Adam. But those are ideas which do not
concern us at present, although it is written in the Bible—‘This is
eternal life, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom
thou hast sent.’” (JD 5:331-332)

[freedomforall]

I don't know how any testimony can be any clearer than these:

I can.

Are you here to convince me or merely confirm your need for other than scripture?

Sandman45, JWharton and others have come here with the same attempt. No matter how many traps were set, no matter how many insults I received, and no matter how many scriptures they ignored for the sake of presenting JOD as a irrefutable source...they failed. I have no idea how many times I have to say that the Adam-God doctrine is false. That's just the way it is.

I'm going to let someone else argue with you. Every few months another guy comes here and starts the conflict all over again. Believe me, I've had my fill.

[Doug]

First, not everything is in the canonized scripture, that is why the Gospel had to be "Restored".
And to say that it is not true because it is not in the scriptures is like saying any scripture following Revelations is not scripture.
Again, that is why we have modern prophets, also known as revelators.

Second, Joseph Smith boasting?
It's not even in the scriptures, you stick to the scriptures so why do you even bring it up?
I testify to you, Joseph Smith was called of God before the foundations of this world to be the Prophet of the dispensation of the fullness of times and I agree with my whole soul with

D&C 135:3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!

And I will tell you, even at the risk of you saying it is heresey, That it is Joseph Smith that occupies the third position in the First Presidency of this World, The Godhead. He is the Holy Ghost.
So I care not about any muck raking on him, and if he actually did boast about something, so be it.

Third, Hearsay? I'm not sure what you are talking about. If you are referring to the quotes from modern prophets on Adam God as hearsay, then ALL scripture is hearsay.

Fourth, Credence to Eldon Watson, you gave it some credence, you read it and brought it up here. If no credence, why even mention it?

[freedomforall]

Again......I'm going to let someone else argue with you. Every few months another guy comes here and starts the conflict all over again. Believe me, I've had my fill.

You cannot convince someone that already has a testimony of the truth. I'm done here!

[Doug]

And again you have ignored the clear and simple testimonies of Joseph and Brigham that I have presented.
There is none so blind as those who will not see.

You have said this before, is it true this time. I hope not.
But it does seem to be what you say when you run out of argument against my arguments,
even though it has been you challenging my presentations of what the prophets have said.

In any case, my brother, I wish you nothing but the best. And if you cannot accept the truth in this life you will in a life to come. I say this because I know that all will become either Gods or Perdition, and while I think you stubborn, you are clearly not perdition.

[freedomforall]

The ADAM-GOD DOCTRINE IS FALSE. NO ARGUMENT NEEDED. NO BAITING REQUIRED. NO AMOUNT OF INSULTS CAN OR WILL CHANGE MY TESTIMONY. PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK BAD. YOUR TACTICS ARE THE VERY SAME AS THE PREVIOUS POSTERS COMING HERE TO START A CONFLICT. FRANKLY, I BELIEVE THIS DOCTRINE TO BE OTHER THAN ORTHODOX LDS BELIEF AND OF A FUNDAMENTALIST POINT OF VIEW. AND, APPARENTLY YOU LACK ENOUGH RESPECT FOR MY POSITION OF HAVING ENOUGH OF THIS TOPIC THAT NOW I FIGURE YOU ARE ONLY HERE TO GET FOLLOWERS, NOT TO ACTUALLY HEAR ARGUMENTS OF DIFFERENCE, FOR YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF CHANGING YOUR MIND WHATSOEVER, RATHER TO JAM JS AND BY DOWN OUR THROATS, ALL THE WHILE LETTING SCRIPTURE GATHER DUST ON YOUR SHELF.
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW MY ARGUMENTS, SEARCH THE FORUM. THERE ARE PLENTY. I HAVE NO INCLINATION OF REPEATING MYSELF EVERY TIME A NEW GUY COMES ALONG.

[Alaris]

Thanks for sharing your passion Doug and FFA but contention only accomplishes the ends of the adversary.

If it weren't so late I'd post more, but the quote above about passing Jesus to Adam:

Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass
him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of
the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys,
and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you
come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it
will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him
say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this
dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see
the white locks of Father Adam.

For the full reference see above.

Anyway, this is very interesting given what articles I've written in recent weeks about ascending the levels of mankind. The principle being taught above reinforces the union between dispensations and ascension. Each dispensation represents an ascension, beginning with the last dispensation and ending with the first. This quote taught me another layer. Jesus is the way and the path back to the father in this creation. Just as Jesus did what He saw the father do, Adam will do what he saw Jesus do. Sorry Doug but Jesus is above Adam. Only twisted pride reinforces the false idea that Adam is above Christ and the Holy Spirit of God testifies that Jesus Christ is above Adam in light and progression and seniority. I feel the holy ghost witness as I write it. Be sincerely open to being wrong & say a prayer before reading this next sentence:

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord and Michael is but one of millions of Adams who are all subordinate.

But what about the quote? Well how do Gods creations multiply?

Every Adam beneath Christ who succeeds will ascend to the level of God the Son. Jesus Christ will ascend to God the father. And we will follow our respective Adams who will then become Saviors and we will be the noble and great ones ascending to higher capacities ourselves.

And, so on the creations multiply infinitely. Eventually Adam will ascend to the level of father and guess what? He will be the only God and Father of which we will have anything to do. We will answer to him after having answered to the Lord Jesus Christ several creations earlier.

I really shouldn't be trying to explain this late at night.

except you do thus and so, you cannot pass

This is a reference to each level. I explain the levels in my blog:

lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com

This is why Jesus told Mary:

I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If it seems the Master is talking about two different Gods here its because he is. As an older being from an earlier creation, the father of his spirit may have been a different father than he of Mary's.

Lastly, Michael obviously answers to Jesus Christ in the temple. To say Jehovah is someone else is the only way to make that work. Again listen to the spirit with sincerity:

Jehovah is the Lord Jesus Christ. Can you feel that? I promise I have considered the theory that Adam is above Jesus Christ with sincerity and prayer. There is no spirit there in that doctrine.

The Holy Ghost is conspicuously absent from the temple. If anyone is the Holy Ghost it's Michael. However read the baptismal covenants in Mosiah 18. Are those not the responsibilities of the Holy Ghost? Godhood is participatory even if you just look at God The Son. He was not perfect and did not receive of a fulness until after His resurrection. The noble and great ones all create the earth in Abraham 3. It's creation not an aspect of Godhood?

[Doug]

The ADAM-GOD DOCTRINE IS FALSE. NO ARGUMENT NEEDED. NO BAITING REQUIRED. NO AMOUNT OF INSULTS CAN OR WILL CHANGE MY TESTIMONY. PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK BAD. YOUR TACTICS ARE THE VERY SAME AS THE PREVIOUS POSTERS COMING HERE TO START A CONFLICT. FRANKLY, I BELIEVE THIS DOCTRINE TO BE OTHER THAN ORTHODOX LDS BELIEF AND OF A FUNDAMENTALIST POINT OF VIEW. AND, APPARENTLY YOU LACK ENOUGH RESPECT FOR MY POSITION OF HAVING ENOUGH OF THIS TOPIC THAT NOW I FIGURE YOU ARE ONLY HERE TO GET FOLLOWERS, NOT TO ACTUALLY HEAR ARGUMENTS OF DIFFERENCE, FOR YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF CHANGING YOUR MIND WHATSOEVER, RATHER TO JAM JS AND BY DOWN OUR THROATS, ALL THE WHILE LETTING SCRIPTURE GATHER DUST ON YOUR SHELF.
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW MY ARGUMENTS, SEARCH THE FORUM. THERE ARE PLENTY. I HAVE NO INCLINATION OF REPEATING MYSELF EVERY TIME A NEW GUY COMES ALONG.

Why such anger? Why all the yelling?
I've done nothing to you to warrant such behavior.

You condemn me claiming that I ignore the scriptures, but you do so in vain.
You claim that Adam is God cannot be proven from canonized scripture and you are correct,
it was removed due to unbelief so I turn to the prophets of the restoration. I can and have, however, shown by scripture alone, just a little of the proof of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives.(other thread).

You claim that I am here to get followers, base on what. I came here hoping for honest, open, enlightening discussion. You have no stewardship over me and therefore no right to special insights over me. I have read you arguments and complaints.
But when I answer your claims or provide statements by prophets, you at best just ignore me, at worst the above.
I have done nothing to assert my agency over yours, I have complete respect for your agency to just leave the thread and go elsewhere. I don't want your arguments against the testimonies of Brigham Young, nor did I even ask for them.
And if you believe I have insulted you, show me the text that does so and I will profusely apologize and seek your forgiveness.
And your belief of my orthodoxy or fundamentalism is of no concern to me. I am concerned with putting my beliefs and understandings in harmony with the prophets and thus God.

Is all this emotion against me or is it against the testimonies of Bro. Brigham below?
No amount of this kind of behavior and no matter how much you assert that I am wrong and that you know the truth
will outshout or stomp out the following testimonies of Bro. Brigham.
I have not and don't have to tell you that you are wrong,
the fact that you are not in harmony with the teachings of Brigham Young as shown below
speaks louder and with such authority that all can hear that above all your anger and yelling.

Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and
he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of
generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and
drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is
diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them,
according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for
their spiritual children. This is a key for you. The faithful will
become Gods, even the sons of God; but this does not overthrow the idea
that we have a father. Adam is my Father; (this I will explain to you
at some future time;) but it does not prove that he is not my father, if
I become a God: it does not prove that I have not a father.” (JD
6:274-275)

“One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is
in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God… [and] Our God
and Father in heaven… When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden,
he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his
wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is
MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have
written and spoken – He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with
whom WE have to do… I could tell you much more about this; but were I to
tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the
estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However,
I have told you the truth as far as I have gone… Jesus, our elder
brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the
Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may
hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat
them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or
damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but
a great deal more remains to be told… Treasure up these things in your
hearts.” (JD 1: 50-51, CAPITALS in the original.)

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam;
when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother
Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church
Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do
without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God.
Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal
History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally
written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is
based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being
the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word
for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when
Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite
literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The
Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and
is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December
16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

“Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as
Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true. Where
was Michael in the creation of this earth? Did he have a mission to the
earth? He did. Where was he? In the Grand Council, and performed the
mission assigned him there. Now, if it should happen that we have to
pay tribute to Father Adam, what a humiliating circumstance it would be!
Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass
him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of
the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys,
and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you
come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it
will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him
say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this
dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see
the white locks of Father Adam. But those are ideas which do not
concern us at present, although it is written in the Bible—‘This is
eternal life, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom
thou hast sent.’” (JD 5:331-332)

Even after such outburst against me, I have no ill will towards you and harbor no offense toward you.
I pray that you will forsake your pride and ponder the majestic testimonies from Brigham Young
presented here for your edification. Even greater doctrines await your discovery. We all learn line upon line, please don't stumble on this line too long that your eternal progression is damned.

I am sincere when I say, my brother, I wish you nothing but the best.

[inho]

I BELIEVE THIS DOCTRINE TO BE OTHER THAN ORTHODOX LDS BELIEF

That certainly is the case. Adam-God is not taught in the church today. In my opinion this leaves us with three options:

• it is false
• it is true, or perhaps misunderstood, but not necessary for our salvation
• it is true and the church is in apostasy, since it has stopped teaching it

I do not believe in the last option. The second option could be true. But even if so, I don't feel like Adam-God is one of the Mysteries of the Kingdom we ought to seek to understand. So even if that option would be true, I would act like the first option was true.

Adam-God interest me only in a similar way than some other religions interest me. It is fascinating to learn what other people believe, but I have my own beliefs.