Is Capitalism Moral?

[Separatist]

Apologies. I wasn't implying that you weren't. I was replying to jwharton (being jaded).

haha, jwharton is jaded. just kidding j.

have fun in TX. whereabouts will you be?

[marc]

My hometown, El Paso. Visiting parents.

[jwharton]

Apologies. I wasn't implying that you weren't. I was replying to jwharton (being jaded).

haha, jwharton is jaded. just kidding j.

have fun in TX. whereabouts will you be?

LOL! I can slip in that direction at times.

[digdug75]

Capitalism is based on the individual and choices of groups of individuals. The paper money system is one of the problems. Paper money has a monopoly and people are not free to choose anything else. Socialist rules/laws created the paper money system. There 3 things I have found interferes with capitalism. Government tax incentives, subsidies, and socialist laws. You can still apply capitalism with the barter system.

There is a good video about paper money on youtube. If an individual lacks some morals then the use of that system becomes corrupt. There is opposition in all things. Socialism is also corruptible as with all other economic systems. Question is which provides the most freedom? I remember the war in heaven and reasons for the 1/3 of angels separating. The word "force" is what I had applied to Lucifer's plan freedom or agency is what I applied to Heavenly Fathers plan. Which economic system provides the least amount of force?

No offence to replier who brought up the Garden of Eden. As this is just my own point of view. The Garden of Eden example is irrelevant, because it was before the fall. I agree all is God's and given to us. We are given talents and many other things. We are here in my opinion to learn. The body and spirit are 2 separate things for a lack of a better word. We are to learn to control our bodies. Which include emotions, and actions. We receive a reward according to how much we have learned. This as far as I know includes what body of glory we receive.

I agree with the law of consecration. I believe it to be a celestial law. I also believe it to be a type of economic system. Which requires charity from my point of view.

Hugh Nibley was into socialist ideology as far as I understand. Correct me if I am wrong. Hugh Nibley had enabled people to question and encouraged people to research and learn for themselves as far as I understand.

We are to use prayer and the Gift of the Holy Ghost to receive testimonies regarding truth amongst other things. So we listen to leaders we pray to receive testimony of truth. Scripture warns us of knowledge of men or the world. We are to learn about as much truth as possible. we are to do as according to what we learn. All satan has to do is keep us from progressing, or using our talents.

Lastly we do not currently have a true form of capitalism. We have corporatism in my point of view which is the blending of both capitalism and socialism. An interesting subject to research would be Karl Marx immigration to the United States in 1851. A few other subjects to read would be Woodrow Wilson and laws passed by him and Franklin D. Roosevelt and laws passed by him. The communist part, aclu history of, and the Committee of the 48. The use of taxes by Government was one of the other worst things to happen to our country. In my humble opinion.

Still learning the History involved with Homesteading and ownership of property. A whole other topic in a sense, but still has economic effects. But my interest in this is property tax and foreign governments(aliens) being able to buy United States Property.

[skmo]

Is capitalism moral? Well ask yourself this: Is killing animals moral? Is driving a car moral? Is having sex moral? It all depends on the circumstances. Nothing wrong with legally and humanely killing an animal to provide meat for my family in moderation. Driving around late at night with a shotgun blowing away bunnies and leaving the, to rot just because it's fun to kill things is immoral. Nothing wrong with a husband and wife both willingly and lovingly sharing sexual intimacy privately with each other. Throwing your genitalia around indiscriminately with whomever is available is immoral.

Capitalism, when applied fairly and equitably is a good means of accounting and distribution of resources, among the only good forms on earth. It can be abused just like anything else in life, but it's also just a tool.

[Franco]

The free market allows people to make their own choices and be rewarded for making the right choices. God gave us the Constitution that allows for our liberty and freedom to make choices. That should settle the question.

[freedomforall]

Still, the free market does not concern itself with the building up of Zion and establishing God's kingdom and thus isn't free. Until we are redeemed, we remain in bondage. The wages of sin is death. Those who labor for money (or anything other than Zion) perish. Thus anything less than what the Lord has decreed cometh of evil. The free market is an illusion.

Unless I am mistaken as to what free market is, let's learn what can be achieved pertaining to buying and selling freely. If done properly is it then an illusion?

Helaman 6:7-8
7 And behold, there was peace in all the land, insomuch that the Nephites did go into whatsoever part of the land they would, whether among the Nephites or the Lamanites.
8 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did also go whithersoever they would, whether it were among the Lamanites or among the Nephites; and thus they did have free intercourse one with another, to buy and to sell, and to get gain, according to their desire.
9 And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites; and they did have an exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver, and of all manner of precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north.

Now, now, keep clean thoughts everyone.

[freedomforall]

The free market allows people to make their own choices and be rewarded for making the right choices. God gave us the Constitution that allows for our liberty and freedom to make choices. That should settle the question.

And this is why Obama hates the Constitution. He is seeking New World Government control over all people.
He swore and oath to defend the Constitution, to abide by it...but the words I Do was a big fat lie.

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

What freedom of choice was there when Obamacare was shoved down the throats of the American people? Just who is it that pays for this service for the less fortunate?

I agree with you Franco, however, liberty and freedom nowadays is an illusion. The PC crowd is robbing people of liberty.
The government setting up free speech zones is robbing us of freedom.

Obama running loose and doing whatever he feels like is robbing us of the security we were supposed to have, protected and preserved by a good president, not a tyrant.

And this ------- is considering a third term. And he's got so many people buffaloed he may just slide right into a third term with no resistance whatsoever.

Yet if the patriotic portion of society with some reading skills would have read the Declaration of Independence as to what power the American people really have, our present POTUS would have been kicked out of office long before now.

Freedom and Liberty are now hiss and bywords.

This verse describes our condition:

Helaman 5:2
2 For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted.

History repeating itself, again.

[marc]

Still, the free market does not concern itself with the building up of Zion and establishing God's kingdom and thus isn't free. Until we are redeemed, we remain in bondage. The wages of sin is death. Those who labor for money (or anything other than Zion) perish. Thus anything less than what the Lord has decreed cometh of evil. The free market is an illusion.

Unless I am mistaken as to what free market is, let's learn what can be achieved pertaining to buying and selling freely. If done properly is it then an illusion?

Helaman 6:7-8
7 And behold, there was peace in all the land, insomuch that the Nephites did go into whatsoever part of the land they would, whether among the Nephites or the Lamanites.
8 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did also go whithersoever they would, whether it were among the Lamanites or among the Nephites; and thus they did have free intercourse one with another, to buy and to sell, and to get gain, according to their desire.
9 And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites; and they did have an exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver, and of all manner of precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north.

Now, now, keep clean thoughts everyone.

Great! They were all rich. Where did that lead them? Why were their lands destroyed prior to Christ's visit? The bottom line is the formula they followed was not God's.

[freedomforall]

Still, the free market does not concern itself with the building up of Zion and establishing God's kingdom and thus isn't free. Until we are redeemed, we remain in bondage. The wages of sin is death. Those who labor for money (or anything other than Zion) perish. Thus anything less than what the Lord has decreed cometh of evil. The free market is an illusion.

Unless I am mistaken as to what free market is, let's learn what can be achieved pertaining to buying and selling freely. If done properly is it then an illusion?

Helaman 6:7-8
7 And behold, there was peace in all the land, insomuch that the Nephites did go into whatsoever part of the land they would, whether among the Nephites or the Lamanites.
8 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did also go whithersoever they would, whether it were among the Lamanites or among the Nephites; and thus they did have free intercourse one with another, to buy and to sell, and to get gain, according to their desire.
9 And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites; and they did have an exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver, and of all manner of precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north.

Now, now, keep clean thoughts everyone.

Great! They were all rich. Where did that lead them? Why were their lands destroyed prior to Christ's visit? The bottom line is the formula they followed was not God's.

17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you.
18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.
19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Many of us, however, do not remember the charity portion of the equation. But this doe not mean it isn't God's formula.

If we do not act charitable, then we are told this:

Alma 39:14
14 Seek not after riches nor the vain things of this world; for behold, you cannot carry them with you.

[marc]

I will concede that a free market has its place.

[Franco]

The free market allows people to make their own choices and be rewarded for making the right choices. God gave us the Constitution that allows for our liberty and freedom to make choices. That should settle the question.

And this is why Obama hates the Constitution. He is seeking New World Government control over all people.
He swore and oath to defend the Constitution, to abide by it...but the words I Do was a big fat lie.

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

What freedom of choice was there when Obamacare was shoved down the throats of the American people? Just who is it that pays for this service for the less fortunate?

I agree with you Franco, however, liberty and freedom nowadays is an illusion. The PC crowd is robbing people of liberty.
The government setting up free speech zones is robbing us of freedom.

Obama running loose and doing whatever he feels like is robbing us of the security we were supposed to have, protected and preserved by a good president, not a tyrant.

And this ------- is considering a third term. And he's got so many people buffaloed he may just slide right into a third term with no resistance whatsoever.

Yet if the patriotic portion of society with some reading skills would have read the Declaration of Independence as to what power the American people really have, our present POTUS would have been kicked out of office long before now.

Freedom and Liberty are now hiss and bywords.

This verse describes our condition:

Helaman 5:2
2 For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted.

History repeating itself, again.

Moroni prophesied of the corruption in Ether 8:24-25, and he was talking about us.

"Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you, that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up."

"For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies."

[Darren]

The temple on the far right on Capitoline Hill is the temple of Juno Moneta. Notice that in this picture her temple is a little more elevated than the temples of the other gods. From Moneta we get the words mint and money, her name is also found in the word admonition and means, to warn. Literally her name means, to warn the agents of government of invaders who do not respect their money controls, emanating from their politically run Empire Capital/Capitol.

Money and Capitalism come from the practice of government employing material proxies, and philosopher king control for human energy. That practice began with the government at Babel and is at the heart of the kingdoms that Daniel told King Nebuchadnezzar would come after his. Money is a continuing principle of those false kingdoms. Capitalism is the modern name for the economic practices that had their beginnings at ancient Babel. Money and Capitalism are sin.

On the other hand, "The Free Enterprise System" as set up on the Island of Fyn in Denmark, operated upon the practice of making and keeping promises, upon trust inherent in that system, in the bond market of those people bound to God.

Read "The History of Money" at my www link.

Seek true intelligence, not the wisdom that will perish with the world's wise men.

God Bless,
Darren

[skmo]

I will concede that a free market has its place.

This follows along with my point: Capitalism is neither evil nor good on its own, it is simply a tool.

Is abortion evil? No, but the VAST majority of its use is evil.

Is murder evil? No, but the VAST majority of its use is evil.

[freedomforall]

Is Capitalism Moral?
Is a stool in a pool to be enjoyed while swimming?
There's the answer.

[skmo]

Is a stool in a pool to be enjoyed while swimming?
There's the answer.

I'm going to say that's a yes.

PoolBar.jpg (116.88 KiB) Viewed 1965 times

[freedomforall]

Is a stool in a pool to be enjoyed while swimming?
There's the answer.

I'm going to say that's a yes.

PoolBar.jpg

Aaaaahh, folks, a stool is long, sometimes multicolored feces. Picture a huge floater in the pool above. Now do you want to go swimming?
Your answer may, or certainly would in my case, coincide with the original question, is capitalism moral?
I suppose you could sit on a "stool" (provided) and wait for the water to flow through the filter after the "stool" (the undesirable object) has been removed.

[skmo]

Aaaaahh, folks, a stool is long, sometimes multicolored feces. Picture a huge floater in the pool above. Now do you want to go swimming?

My response was just a joke, but I'd certainly enjoy the stools at the bar in my picture. It was just my first reaction when I read your crappy answer (yes, that was just meant as a joke, too.)

Again, my answer is that capitalism is just a tool, one that can be used morally or immorally.

[freedomforall]

Aaaaahh, folks, a stool is long, sometimes multicolored feces. Picture a huge floater in the pool above. Now do you want to go swimming?

My response was just a joke, but I'd certainly enjoy the stools at the bar in my picture. It was just my first reaction when I read your crappy answer (yes, that was just meant as a joke, too.)

Again, my answer is that capitalism is just a tool, one that can be used morally or immorally.

I thought so. But it was even funnier when someone agreed with you while swimming near a stool. Just don't try sitting on it, the stool that is.

[BeNotDeceived]

Someone didn't watch the video

One day soon I'll be able to watch videos again, at least there's hope; 'till then I'm clueless.

Marc sent me here so I'm bumping this thread just because. :o)

[freedomforall]

To the OP....NO!

[Darren]

Q: Is Capitalism Moral?
A: No

As I have said before on this Forum. Linguists are the miners of the coal, who have paid the price to know. The dictionary companies are the sellers of the coal.

Capital vs. capitol

As a noun, capital refers to (1) a city that serves as a center of government, (2) wealth in the form of money or property, and (3) a capital letter. As an adjective, it means (1) principal, (2) involving financial assets, and (3) deserving of the death penalty. There are other definitions of capital, but these are the most commonly used ones.

Capitol has two very specific definitions (outside ancient Rome): (1) a U.S. state legislature building, and (2) the U.S. Capitol building in Washington, D.C. State capitols are located in the capital cities of U.S. states, and the Capitol is located in the capital city of the U.S. If you’re not talking about any of these capitol buildings, then the word you want is probably capital. http://grammarist.com/usage/capitol-capital/

The Lie of “Capitalism.” “What is that?” It is the “-ism,” belief, in a “Capital Building.”

It is that All Monetary Values are controlled from “The Capital Building,” St. Peter’s Vatican Basilica, on the Capital Hill that is right next to the “Capitol Hill” of Rome, where the Idol of Moneta, the Romans’ Pagan Deity of Money was located. All of these Controls, over all Money, come up from a dead body, that is the KYBERNION – the essence of all European-type “Governments,” from the beginnings of Medieval Times on, which dead body is at the bottom of a Hole that is directly under the Ali Baba’s, Baba Ali’s, Tower of Babel’s Chair, which Chair is directly under the “vital” DOME of St. Peter’s Vatican Basilica – that transmits All Correct Hunches, up, through the Tower of Babel’s Chair, up through the current TOWER of Babel, the Vatican Basilica’s “vital” DOME, OUT, TO GO DOWN ONLY THROUGH OTHER, CURRENT TOWERS OF BABEL, THE “VITAL” DOMES OF OTHER CAPITAL BUILDINGS,” THAT MUST BE “brick for brick” Copies of St. Peter’s Vatican Basilica Capital Building, in order for the Correct Hunches, that are transmitted from St. Peter’s Vatican Basilica Capital Building’s DOME, to be receivable through the DOMES of these other Capital Buildings – like the one in Washington DC, the one in almost all other State Capitals, such as the one in Salt Lake City etc., etc., etc. – that are the “brick for brick” Copies of St. Peter’s Vatican Basilica Capital Building. (Bruce Wynder, The History of Money, Part 2, pp. 60-61) http://s98822910.onlinehome.us/thousand ... part_2.pdf

Modern Capitalism is found in the feud to control the credit-belief-faith of the Christian people of Western Europe that began with Niccolo Machiavelli and his statement, that the power to control capital comes from, “... an impulse that impels him to just get up, go out, and grab that power.”

Control of the credit-belief-faith of the Christian people of Western Europe has always been The Free Enterprise System, with its essence being the Freeman's oath, and the Trust of his and his people's system, of a mental fixation and devotion to Virtue.

The Free Enterprise System is working together in Christ's family.
Capitalism is laboring within Satan's Control System.

Cleon Skousen in his book "The Majesty of God's Law" went into the information of where we get true economic freedom, in the millenniums old culture of Nordic Freemen. The empire south of them wanted to control the world with the Babylonian mechanism of coinage, that became the empire's money system of control.

Economic threats come from the use of Babylon's money.

Economic liberty comes from working together by trust.


"Wealth" comes from the German word for "Voting Stock." When we are all co-owners of the Kingdom of the Lord, we are all wealthy.

A "company" is an ancient Germanic way of organization and working together in an economy wherein trust is the means to economic liberty.


In the idol in the dream of King Nebuchadnezzar were the organizations that operate by the material substances of the earth. The stone that is cut out of the mountain without hands, that smashes the idol is when we realize that we can have an economy without those material substances, that are measured out by the god of Babylon.

Capitalism comes from that Capitoline Hill in Rome, upon which was the Temple of Moneta, where the coins were minted. Capitalism is the material control system of those who are a continuation of the activity that took place in that Temple of Moneta. The Federal Reserve is just another Temple of Moneta.

The Free Enterprise System is people who have joined the family of Christ by their oaths to be good and to work together by Trust. This is why London is said to be the financial capital of the world, because they have always operated by their oaths to be London Freemen.

Will we ever learn to work together by our ancestors system given to us and them at Lake Law, Sweden at 43 A.D., that we were supposed to continue in (D&C 86:11)?

Any questions?
Darren

[Oursacredheritage]

Several Things Concerning Capitalism

If you are thinking in terms of Free Enterprise than this is just a small part of the Lords principles when it comes to economics.

In the early days of the church men like joseph Smith and Brigham Young abhorred speculation especially when it came to land. When Parley P Pratt came back from his mission in Europe to Kirtland his great disappointment was when he saw the price of land had skyrocketed, not due to land development but by speculation which he called an illusion of wealth. Brigham Young in Utah did not think it was a correct principle for a man to have more land than he could cultivate. There were instances where land was given to a family that needed it from those that had more than they could do anything with.

Capitalism and Free-Enterprise seem to be lacking the laws and principles that we have been given for a better way. One is that in the lords economic system the priesthood rule in spiritual matters as well as temporal which is the only real legitimate government there is. John Taylor called mans attempt to govern outside the laws of God usurpation. His book Government of God goes into better detail.

In todays "Free Market Economy"(which I don't think actually exist due to government regulation, central banking, subsidies, etc) we are forced to compete with those that do business with what is simply legal and do not concern themselves with what is right, moral, or what should not be legal in the first place.

The Lord wants our temporal affairs to be a means for us to become one in temporal things SO that we may become one in spiritual things. Capitalism will not do that.

"It is not meet for one man to posses that which is above another wherefore the world lieth in sin"

Brigham Young was adamant that the Lords economic system would produce a society that was far more wealthy than what could be attained by mere capitalism, if they would abide by the principles and have the patience to see it through. Orson Pratt stated in General Conference “Riches are not a curse, but they are a great blessing: it is inequality in riches that is a great curse. God has made all the riches of the earth, and the riches of all worlds. He made the gold, and the silver, and the precious metals: He formed the flocks and herds, and all useful animals: He has made the earth exceedingly rich; and He has given man dominion over all these things: the more His people enjoy of these things the better he is pleased; it is impossible for His people to become too rich: if the whole world, with all the treasures thereof, were in the hands of the Saints, the Lord would still be delighted for them to have more. But these blessings have become a great curse to man, because they have been unequally possessed." We are told that if we seek riches we will attain them as long as we seek them with the intent to do good. “But I will promise the Latter-day Saints that if they will go into these things allowing God to dictate in the interests of Israel and the building up of his Zion on the earth, and take themselves and their individual interests out of the question, feeling they are acting for him and his kingdom, they will become the wealthiest of all people, and God will bless them and pour out wealth and intelligence and all the blessings that earth can afford. But if you will not, you will go downward, and keep going the downward road to disappointment and poverty in things spiritual as well as temporal. I dare prophesy that in the name of the Lord. JD, 20:163-164.

In 1875 the First Presidency and the twelve apostles put their names to the following address. “One of the great evils with which our own nation is menaced at the present time is the wonderful growth of wealth in the hands of a comparatively few individuals. The very liberties for which our fathers contended so steadfastly and courageously, and which they bequeathed to us as a priceless legacy, are endangered by the monstrous power which this accumulation of wealth gives to a few individuals and a few powerful corporations… If this evil should not be checked, and measures not taken to prevent the continued growth of riches among the class already rich, and the painful increase of destitution and want among the poor, the nation is likely to be overtaken by disaster; for, according to history, such a tendency among nations once powerful was the sure precursor of ruin… Years ago it was perceived that we Latter-day Saints were open to the same dangers as those which beset the rest of the world. A condition of affairs existed among us which was favorable to the growth of riches in the hands of a a few at the expense of the many… The growth of such a class was dangerous to our union… Then it was that the Saints were counselled to enter into co-operation. (Edward J. Allen, “Appendix A: Apostolic Circular of July, 1875.

Another thing to think about are the economic laws given to the Children of Israel when they entered the promised land. Sabatical Years, no gleaning of the fields, no usury, the 50 year jubilee etc. Clearly The Lord thinks much differently about these things than just simply Free Enterprise. (The Capitalist would not like this system very much)

And so again although Capitalism and Free-Enterprise has its place among correct economic principles, but it is only a sliver compared to everything we have been given as Latter-Day Saints. It is not so much about whether capitalism is right or wrong but about what it lacks. We are to stand independent above all things beneath the celestial world in order to gain our inheritance. When we really delve into all those principles that can exalt us spiritually as well as temporally then we will be able to see how remarkable they really are.

[freedomforall]

Is Capitalism when all fifty states have a Capital in it?

[harakim]

I agree with the statement that the accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few leads to destruction. And capitalism leads to this outcome. If you can store your excess in monetary form, you can accumulate far more than you need. Then you have an incentive to make money at any cost because you can make an ulimited amount of it. And this is all manageable and, while negative, also somewhat beneficial. Then you get into the next generation, where they haven't worked but they have a head start. So you don't have a free market anymore. The accumulation of unlimited wealth is not a good thing, but I don't have the silver bullet.