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- Robin Hood
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13159
- Location: England
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4066
- Location: Vineyard, Utah
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
Polygamy is just like physical intimacy. It is a gift, and sometimes a trial, from our Father. Both of these gifts are given to us with very strict restrictions on their use, and both have been bastardized under the influence of the adversary.
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Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
3 Nephi 27
11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.
The works of men, and the works of the devil both have the same outcome -- they are hewn down and cast into the fire.
Therefore the question is valid, polygamy (at any particular time) is either of God or Satan.
This is also why I cringe when people say that sometimes our prophets, seers and revelators speak for God, and sometimes they are expressing their own opinions. I say that one better be able to discern the difference if that is the case.
11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.
The works of men, and the works of the devil both have the same outcome -- they are hewn down and cast into the fire.
Therefore the question is valid, polygamy (at any particular time) is either of God or Satan.
This is also why I cringe when people say that sometimes our prophets, seers and revelators speak for God, and sometimes they are expressing their own opinions. I say that one better be able to discern the difference if that is the case.
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1585
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
I know by personal revelation that it was of God through Joseph Smith, and anciently as He had occasion to command. I likewise know it was by revelation that the practice ceased and yet has remained as a doctrine and practiced today in ways that the OP has observed.
The Lord intends for families to be exalted together. It was for this wise purpose that it was done. Those privileged to live in on this earth and those who are byproducts of such unions have much to be grateful for. The veil is very thin for those with ancestors who lived it. This I know VERY well.
The Lord intends for families to be exalted together. It was for this wise purpose that it was done. Those privileged to live in on this earth and those who are byproducts of such unions have much to be grateful for. The veil is very thin for those with ancestors who lived it. This I know VERY well.
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- Follow the Prophet
- Posts: 8801
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives.... I am innocent of all these charges.... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers."ebenezerarise wrote: ↑June 19th, 2017, 7:23 pm I know by personal revelation that it was of God through Joseph Smith, and anciently as He had occasion to command. I likewise know it was by revelation that the practice ceased and yet has remained as a doctrine and practiced today in ways that the OP has observed.
The Lord intends for families to be exalted together. It was for this wise purpose that it was done. Those privileged to live in on this earth and those who are byproducts of such unions have much to be grateful for. The veil is very thin for those with ancestors who lived it. This I know VERY well.
Interesting that you know that Joseph Smith had other wives when even he didn't know. I believe he had a name for the people saying he had other wives. "perjurers"? Take a second to realize that the prophet of the restoration is calling you a perjurer :ymhug:
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- Posts: 5072
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
It can make sense depending on how you look at it and how deep you take it. Yes all things are either going to be "eventually" good or bad. But, don't underestimate the power of man to initiate and orchestrate their own plan and solutions and interpretations.CelestialAngel wrote: ↑June 19th, 2017, 4:37 pmYour answer makes no sense. Explain yourself. Today we do plural sealings for those who have passed on and for those who divorce civally but don't get a temple cancellation.
People can very well start something on their own accord without it first having a signed paper from God or Satan.
Just a generalized statement here, not saying anything specifically about polygamy.
- Robin Hood
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13159
- Location: England
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
The question is quite polarised. It gave only 2 options. It assumed polygamy was either of God or of the devil.
I think this is an unhelpful assumption as it ignores another possibility...... that it was of man; nothing to do with either God or the devil.
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- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 8534
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
"the natural man is an enemy to God..."CelestialAngel wrote: ↑June 20th, 2017, 5:48 pmALL things are either from God or Satan. There is no from man.Robin Hood wrote: ↑June 20th, 2017, 1:00 amThe question is quite polarised. It gave only 2 options. It assumed polygamy was either of God or of the devil.
I think this is an unhelpful assumption as it ignores another possibility...... that it was of man; nothing to do with either God or the devil.
The entire Book of Mormon is polarized. In other words, it contains examples of 2-way doctrine all the way through. No middle ground, because if you choose the middle ground, you haven't chosen God.
- shadow
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10542
- Location: St. George
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
Actually, polygamy can be both from God and Satan.
And just a correction in the OP- President Hunter wasn't sealed to his second wife. She was a widow already sealed to her first husband.
And just a correction in the OP- President Hunter wasn't sealed to his second wife. She was a widow already sealed to her first husband.
- oneClimbs
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3198
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3064
- Location: Augusta, GA
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Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
Polygamy like adoption was practiced anciently as a welfare system to care for the fatherless and widows.
The family (overseen by religion) is to be used to supply welfare needs of all individuals (not the state).
Any implementation of polygamy for other purposes or motivations is not of God except also for (raise up righteous seed).
The family (overseen by religion) is to be used to supply welfare needs of all individuals (not the state).
Any implementation of polygamy for other purposes or motivations is not of God except also for (raise up righteous seed).
- Robin Hood
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13159
- Location: England
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
No they're not.
Do you really think that God or Satan care whether I have marmalade or jam on my toast?
Man is quite capable of making his own decisions.
As the scripture clearly states; he can act, or be acted upon.
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- captain of 100
- Posts: 570
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
Polygamy has a Godly purpose.
Jacob 2:30
It seems that he recognizes it as a potentially legitimate strategy for fulfilling His purpose30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
Moses 1:39
That does not mean that every instance of it's use comes from heaven.39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1585
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
I never said anything Joseph having other wives. You did.Stahura wrote: ↑June 19th, 2017, 10:48 pm Interesting that you know that Joseph Smith had other wives when even he didn't know. I believe he had a name for the people saying he had other wives. "perjurers"? Take a second to realize that the prophet of the restoration is calling you a perjurer :ymhug:
- brlenox
- A sheep in wolf in sheep's clothing
- Posts: 2615
- shadow
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10542
- Location: St. George
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
Many prophets, even after the restoration taught polygamy.Stahura wrote: ↑June 19th, 2017, 10:48 pm"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives.... I am innocent of all these charges.... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers."ebenezerarise wrote: ↑June 19th, 2017, 7:23 pm I know by personal revelation that it was of God through Joseph Smith, and anciently as He had occasion to command. I likewise know it was by revelation that the practice ceased and yet has remained as a doctrine and practiced today in ways that the OP has observed.
The Lord intends for families to be exalted together. It was for this wise purpose that it was done. Those privileged to live in on this earth and those who are byproducts of such unions have much to be grateful for. The veil is very thin for those with ancestors who lived it. This I know VERY well.
Interesting that you know that Joseph Smith had other wives when even he didn't know. I believe he had a name for the people saying he had other wives. "perjurers"? Take a second to realize that the prophet of the restoration is calling you a perjurer :ymhug:
With Joseph Smith, you have to see the context of the quote. Law's version of polygamy is what Joseph was innocent of. Absolutely he had plural wives. I'm surprised people even argue against it.
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- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5072
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
It's no doubt he was sealed to multiple women but he only has 1 wife, Emma.shadow wrote: ↑June 21st, 2017, 6:28 pmMany prophets, even after the restoration taught polygamy.Stahura wrote: ↑June 19th, 2017, 10:48 pm"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives.... I am innocent of all these charges.... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers."ebenezerarise wrote: ↑June 19th, 2017, 7:23 pm I know by personal revelation that it was of God through Joseph Smith, and anciently as He had occasion to command. I likewise know it was by revelation that the practice ceased and yet has remained as a doctrine and practiced today in ways that the OP has observed.
The Lord intends for families to be exalted together. It was for this wise purpose that it was done. Those privileged to live in on this earth and those who are byproducts of such unions have much to be grateful for. The veil is very thin for those with ancestors who lived it. This I know VERY well.
Interesting that you know that Joseph Smith had other wives when even he didn't know. I believe he had a name for the people saying he had other wives. "perjurers"? Take a second to realize that the prophet of the restoration is calling you a perjurer :ymhug:
With Joseph Smith, you have to see the context of the quote. Law's version of polygamy is what Joseph was innocent of. Absolutely he had plural wives. I'm surprised people even argue against it.
- Robin Hood
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13159
- Location: England
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
Absolutely!MMbelieve wrote: ↑June 21st, 2017, 7:17 pmIt's no doubt he was sealed to multiple women but he only has 1 wife, Emma.shadow wrote: ↑June 21st, 2017, 6:28 pmMany prophets, even after the restoration taught polygamy.Stahura wrote: ↑June 19th, 2017, 10:48 pm"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives.... I am innocent of all these charges.... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers."ebenezerarise wrote: ↑June 19th, 2017, 7:23 pm I know by personal revelation that it was of God through Joseph Smith, and anciently as He had occasion to command. I likewise know it was by revelation that the practice ceased and yet has remained as a doctrine and practiced today in ways that the OP has observed.
The Lord intends for families to be exalted together. It was for this wise purpose that it was done. Those privileged to live in on this earth and those who are byproducts of such unions have much to be grateful for. The veil is very thin for those with ancestors who lived it. This I know VERY well.
Interesting that you know that Joseph Smith had other wives when even he didn't know. I believe he had a name for the people saying he had other wives. "perjurers"? Take a second to realize that the prophet of the restoration is calling you a perjurer :ymhug:
With Joseph Smith, you have to see the context of the quote. Law's version of polygamy is what Joseph was innocent of. Absolutely he had plural wives. I'm surprised people even argue against it.
I've been saying this for years. Most people shout me down, but the evidence is clear when you strip away the back written "Utah layers".
- Col. Flagg
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 16961
- Location: Utah County
- kgrigio
- captain of 100
- Posts: 423
- Location: Iowa
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
Robin Hood wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2017, 12:52 am
Absolutely!
I've been saying this for years. Most people shout me down, but the evidence is clear when you strip away the back written "Utah layers".
https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marri ... o?lang=engThe first plural marriage in Nauvoo took place when Louisa Beaman and Joseph Smith were sealed in April 1841.19 Joseph married many additional wives and authorized other Latter-day Saints to practice plural marriage. The practice spread slowly at first. By June 1844, when Joseph died, approximately 29 men and 50 women had entered into plural marriage, in addition to Joseph and his wives. When the Saints entered the Salt Lake Valley in 1847, at least 196 men and 521 women had entered into plural marriages.20 Participants in these early plural marriages pledged to keep their involvement confidential, though they anticipated a time when the practice would be publicly acknowledged.
Robin, are you saying the church is lying then? The implications of your statement is the church is knowingly lying about Joseph practicing polygamy.
- Mark
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6929
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
kgrigio wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2017, 8:12 pmRobin Hood wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2017, 12:52 am
Absolutely!
I've been saying this for years. Most people shout me down, but the evidence is clear when you strip away the back written "Utah layers".https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marri ... o?lang=engThe first plural marriage in Nauvoo took place when Louisa Beaman and Joseph Smith were sealed in April 1841.19 Joseph married many additional wives and authorized other Latter-day Saints to practice plural marriage. The practice spread slowly at first. By June 1844, when Joseph died, approximately 29 men and 50 women had entered into plural marriage, in addition to Joseph and his wives. When the Saints entered the Salt Lake Valley in 1847, at least 196 men and 521 women had entered into plural marriages.20 Participants in these early plural marriages pledged to keep their involvement confidential, though they anticipated a time when the practice would be publicly acknowledged.
Robin, are you saying the church is lying then? The implications of your statement is the church is knowingly lying about Joseph practicing polygamy.
Not only are they saying that the church and those who serve in leadership today are lying but the denyers are also saying that all those who succeeded Joseph in the leadership positions after Josephs death from Brigham Young to John Taylor to Wilford Woodruff and all those who served in the councils of the church during their tenures are also lying about this. The ramifications would be endless. The church would be shown to have no integrity. How could one trust anything about the foundations if this was just thought to be a big scam set up to satisfy lustful desires?
- Robin Hood
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13159
- Location: England
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
I'm saying there is a difference between "sealing" and "marriage".kgrigio wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2017, 8:12 pmRobin Hood wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2017, 12:52 am
Absolutely!
I've been saying this for years. Most people shout me down, but the evidence is clear when you strip away the back written "Utah layers".https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marri ... o?lang=engThe first plural marriage in Nauvoo took place when Louisa Beaman and Joseph Smith were sealed in April 1841.19 Joseph married many additional wives and authorized other Latter-day Saints to practice plural marriage. The practice spread slowly at first. By June 1844, when Joseph died, approximately 29 men and 50 women had entered into plural marriage, in addition to Joseph and his wives. When the Saints entered the Salt Lake Valley in 1847, at least 196 men and 521 women had entered into plural marriages.20 Participants in these early plural marriages pledged to keep their involvement confidential, though they anticipated a time when the practice would be publicly acknowledged.
Robin, are you saying the church is lying then? The implications of your statement is the church is knowingly lying about Joseph practicing polygamy.
The passage you quote from LDS.org even says "Louisa Beaman and Joseph Smith were sealed in April 1841" rather than married. The assumption is made that sealing and marriage are synonymous.
I dispute this.
Later in Utah the records were back written (because records of these things were not kept in Nauvoo) by which time "sealing" and "marriage" had become conflated in the minds and practice of the Saints.
- Robin Hood
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13159
- Location: England
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
In my view, the whole thing is based on a significant misunderstanding.Mark wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2017, 9:31 amkgrigio wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2017, 8:12 pmRobin Hood wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2017, 12:52 am
Absolutely!
I've been saying this for years. Most people shout me down, but the evidence is clear when you strip away the back written "Utah layers".https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marri ... o?lang=engThe first plural marriage in Nauvoo took place when Louisa Beaman and Joseph Smith were sealed in April 1841.19 Joseph married many additional wives and authorized other Latter-day Saints to practice plural marriage. The practice spread slowly at first. By June 1844, when Joseph died, approximately 29 men and 50 women had entered into plural marriage, in addition to Joseph and his wives. When the Saints entered the Salt Lake Valley in 1847, at least 196 men and 521 women had entered into plural marriages.20 Participants in these early plural marriages pledged to keep their involvement confidential, though they anticipated a time when the practice would be publicly acknowledged.
Robin, are you saying the church is lying then? The implications of your statement is the church is knowingly lying about Joseph practicing polygamy.
Not only are they saying that the church and those who serve in leadership today are lying but the denyers are also saying that all those who succeeded Joseph in the leadership positions after Josephs death from Brigham Young to John Taylor to Wilford Woodruff and all those who served in the councils of the church during their tenures are also lying about this. The ramifications would be endless. The church would be shown to have no integrity. How could one trust anything about the foundations if this was just thought to be a big scam set up to satisfy lustful desires?
There may have been lustful men involved at various stages (Bennett and Higbee for example) but I believe most people who entered the practice did so with good intentions and really believed they were doing their duty.
They weren't, but they thought they were.
Joseph Smith denied, almost to his dying breath, that he was involved in polygamy and insisted that he had only one wife.
Do you believe Joseph was a liar?
- Mark
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6929
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
Robin Hood wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2017, 9:52 amIn my view, the whole thing is based on a significant misunderstanding.Mark wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2017, 9:31 amkgrigio wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2017, 8:12 pmRobin Hood wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2017, 12:52 am
Absolutely!
I've been saying this for years. Most people shout me down, but the evidence is clear when you strip away the back written "Utah layers".https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marri ... o?lang=engThe first plural marriage in Nauvoo took place when Louisa Beaman and Joseph Smith were sealed in April 1841.19 Joseph married many additional wives and authorized other Latter-day Saints to practice plural marriage. The practice spread slowly at first. By June 1844, when Joseph died, approximately 29 men and 50 women had entered into plural marriage, in addition to Joseph and his wives. When the Saints entered the Salt Lake Valley in 1847, at least 196 men and 521 women had entered into plural marriages.20 Participants in these early plural marriages pledged to keep their involvement confidential, though they anticipated a time when the practice would be publicly acknowledged.
Robin, are you saying the church is lying then? The implications of your statement is the church is knowingly lying about Joseph practicing polygamy.
Not only are they saying that the church and those who serve in leadership today are lying but the denyers are also saying that all those who succeeded Joseph in the leadership positions after Josephs death from Brigham Young to John Taylor to Wilford Woodruff and all those who served in the councils of the church during their tenures are also lying about this. The ramifications would be endless. The church would be shown to have no integrity. How could one trust anything about the foundations if this was just thought to be a big scam set up to satisfy lustful desires?
There may have been lustful men involved at various stages (Bennett and Higbee for example) but I believe most people who entered the practice did so with good intentions and really believed they were doing their duty.
They weren't, but they thought they were.
Joseph Smith denied, almost to his dying breath, that he was involved in polygamy and insisted that he had only one wife.
Do you believe Joseph was a liar?
So you are saying that Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball and all those Brethren who succeeded Joseph in the leadership of the church were just innocently deceived into thinking they were doing their duty? Go back and read their words. They solemnly testify that it was Joseph who taught them the principle of celestial marriage and they chose with great anguish to follow that principle as outlined by the Prophet after confirmation from God. These men had great spiritual manifestations given them. How in the world can you say that they were just innocently mistaken in adopting this principle? How do you KNOW this?
- Robin Hood
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13159
- Location: England
Re: Was polygamy from God or Satan?
Like I have already said, "sealing" and "marriage" became conflated. They're not the same thing. Sealing is dynastical whereas marriage can and does exist without a sealing and includes other aspects. Even Helen Kimball, the 14 year old that Joseph supposedly "married", said that she understood it to be a sealing for dynastical purposes, with no question of it being a marriage in the common understanding of the word.Mark wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2017, 10:30 amRobin Hood wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2017, 9:52 amIn my view, the whole thing is based on a significant misunderstanding.Mark wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2017, 9:31 amkgrigio wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2017, 8:12 pm
https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marri ... o?lang=eng
Robin, are you saying the church is lying then? The implications of your statement is the church is knowingly lying about Joseph practicing polygamy.
Not only are they saying that the church and those who serve in leadership today are lying but the denyers are also saying that all those who succeeded Joseph in the leadership positions after Josephs death from Brigham Young to John Taylor to Wilford Woodruff and all those who served in the councils of the church during their tenures are also lying about this. The ramifications would be endless. The church would be shown to have no integrity. How could one trust anything about the foundations if this was just thought to be a big scam set up to satisfy lustful desires?
There may have been lustful men involved at various stages (Bennett and Higbee for example) but I believe most people who entered the practice did so with good intentions and really believed they were doing their duty.
They weren't, but they thought they were.
Joseph Smith denied, almost to his dying breath, that he was involved in polygamy and insisted that he had only one wife.
Do you believe Joseph was a liar?
So you are saying that Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball and all those Brethren who succeeded Joseph in the leadership of the church were just innocently deceived into thinking they were doing their duty? Go back and read their words. They solemnly testify that it was Joseph who taught them the principle of celestial marriage and they chose with great anguish to follow that principle as outlined by the Prophet after confirmation from God. These men had great spiritual manifestations given them. How in the world can you say that they were just innocently mistaken in adopting this principle? How do you KNOW this?