Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

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freedomforall
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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by freedomforall »

Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2017, 1:02 am
freedomforall wrote: April 29th, 2017, 5:45 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 29th, 2017, 3:14 pm
lundbaek wrote: April 28th, 2017, 4:27 pm I have posted here before that I have LDS friends and acquaintances from when we lived in England and in Denmark who told me they appreciate the principles of the US Constitution and would uphold and support them if they could. One of our friends in Denmark has done just that thru the Danish Conservative Party, which is about as conservative as it gets in DK. But at least he tries.

"Members of the Church probably should" ? To me the statements that I included in my OP make it very clear that Americans LDSs certainly should. But I note that a lot of American LDSs do not feel that way, although I have yet to hear on give a reason other than the Prophet is not talking about it now and/or the Constitution is no longer applicable in the USA. And a few local Church authorities have told me they would be concerned that the principles of the US Constitution would, if promoted as in years past, would create controversy among members.
They may well apreciate it, but that is not the same as studying it.
I have never read the US constitution and have zero desire to do so. It has nothing to do with me, nor I with it.
To expect, for example, Russian LDS to study the US constitution is just ridiculous.
I know you Americans are very fond of your constitution, and rightly so. But it is of no interest to the majority of church members. They have their own constitutions, of which they are no doubt equally fond.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signing_o ... he_signers

Virtually every signer had taken part in the Revolution; at least 29 had served in the Continental forces, most of them in positions of command. All but seven were native to the thirteen colonies:

Pierce Butler, Thomas Fitzsimons, James McHenry, and William Paterson were born in Ireland,
Robert Morris in England,
James Wilson in Scotland, and
Alexander Hamilton in the West Indies.

And you have no interest in reading it?


Scene at the Signing of the Constitution of the United States.jpg
So what!
I also have no interest in these people; all of whom were technically treasonous.
Actually, those men you say were treasonous were among the smarter and wiser ones and this is why God chose them to sign the Constitution. Sad that you don't know your own history or related scripture showing these great men for who they truly were in the sight of God...not men.

Doctrine and Covenants 101:80
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

Treasonous, indeed!

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Robin Hood
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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by Robin Hood »

freedomforall wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:19 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2017, 1:02 am
freedomforall wrote: April 29th, 2017, 5:45 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 29th, 2017, 3:14 pm

They may well apreciate it, but that is not the same as studying it.
I have never read the US constitution and have zero desire to do so. It has nothing to do with me, nor I with it.
To expect, for example, Russian LDS to study the US constitution is just ridiculous.
I know you Americans are very fond of your constitution, and rightly so. But it is of no interest to the majority of church members. They have their own constitutions, of which they are no doubt equally fond.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signing_o ... he_signers

Virtually every signer had taken part in the Revolution; at least 29 had served in the Continental forces, most of them in positions of command. All but seven were native to the thirteen colonies:

Pierce Butler, Thomas Fitzsimons, James McHenry, and William Paterson were born in Ireland,
Robert Morris in England,
James Wilson in Scotland, and
Alexander Hamilton in the West Indies.

And you have no interest in reading it?


Scene at the Signing of the Constitution of the United States.jpg
So what!
I also have no interest in these people; all of whom were technically treasonous.
Actually, those men you say were treasonous were among the smarter and wiser ones and this is why God chose them to sign the Constitution. Sad that you don't know your own history or related scripture showing these great men for who they truly were in the sight of God...not men.

Doctrine and Covenants 101:80
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

Treasonous, indeed!
Let's say Texas decided to rebel against the US and leave the union. They armed a militia and fought against the national guard and other federal agencies sent to bring them into line. They fought them off with the help of the Russians, and then declared their independence.
The ring leaders then sign a new govenance document.
Would these men have committed treason?
I would suggest that most Texans would regard them as heroes, while most of the other 49 states would regard them as traitors.

lundbaek
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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by lundbaek »

It is becoming increasingly obvious to me just from the discussion/controversy on this forum alone why the Church leadership has largely abandoned the effort to persuade its members to learn, uphold and abide by the principles of the US Constitution.

I do not hesitate to say, however, that Mormons generally have failed America. They/We are the only people on this planet who have been told by the Lord that He established the Constitution of the United States. And He told us how: that He established it by the hands of wise men whom He raised up unto that very purpose. (D&C 101: 80) He even told them that it was to be maintained for the rights and protection of all people (D&C 98: 5 and D&C 101: 77), and that its principles were to be established forever. (D&C 109: 54)

Mormons have also been told of the vital importance of learning the principles of the US Constitution as it was meant to be understood, or "in the tradition of the Founding Fathers" as Presidents McKay and Benson expressed on occasion, and of defending, upholding and adhering to its principles. In fact, almost every prophet in this dispensation has spoken of the importance of defending, upholding, and adhering to the Constitution. In the year 1987 alone we were told that "We, as Latter-day Saints, MUST be vigilant in doing our part to preserve the Constitution and safeguard the way of life it makes possible" (15 January 1987 First Presidency Statement), that "We MUST learn the principles of the Constitution and then abide by its precepts" (September 1987, The Ensign), and that "We MUST learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers" President Benson, October 1987 General Conference.) Note, please, my emphasis on the word "MUST". The worl "MUST" makes that a commandment to me.

Unfortunately, Mormons have failed America by not being united or faithful in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States. Not only have they generally ignored the admonitions in their scriptures and from their prophets and apostles to study, uphold, and abide by the principles of the US Constitution, but they have also largely ignored the warnings about secret combinations among them striving to destroy their Constitution, gain control over their government and steal their wealth. And many, probably most American LDS voters have supported politicians and candidates for elected offices who have proposed and promoted legislation, government actions, and programs that have been egregious violations of constitutional principles. Is it any wonder that several prophets have warned that Americans have apostatized in various ways from the Constitution ?

According to statements in the Doctrine and Covenants and recorded statements especially of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, Melvin J. Ballard, J. Reuben Clark, Harold B. Lee, and Ezra Taft Benson, it appears that God committed to Americans the task of learning and upholding the principles of the US Constitution as it was intended to be understood by the Lord such that by example those principles would reverberate to other nations where people would desire to live by its precepts and choose to be governed by them, and those principles would eventually apply to "all flesh" and "be established forever". Interesting, is it not, that those statements were given specifically and only to Latter-day Saints.

freedomforall
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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by freedomforall »

Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:43 pm
freedomforall wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:19 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2017, 1:02 am
freedomforall wrote: April 29th, 2017, 5:45 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signing_o ... he_signers

Virtually every signer had taken part in the Revolution; at least 29 had served in the Continental forces, most of them in positions of command. All but seven were native to the thirteen colonies:

Pierce Butler, Thomas Fitzsimons, James McHenry, and William Paterson were born in Ireland,
Robert Morris in England,
James Wilson in Scotland, and
Alexander Hamilton in the West Indies.

And you have no interest in reading it?


Scene at the Signing of the Constitution of the United States.jpg
So what!
I also have no interest in these people; all of whom were technically treasonous.
Actually, those men you say were treasonous were among the smarter and wiser ones and this is why God chose them to sign the Constitution. Sad that you don't know your own history or related scripture showing these great men for who they truly were in the sight of God...not men.

Doctrine and Covenants 101:80
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

Treasonous, indeed!
Let's say Texas decided to rebel against the US and leave the union. They armed a militia and fought against the national guard and other federal agencies sent to bring them into line. They fought them off with the help of the Russians, and then declared their independence.
The ring leaders then sign a new govenance document.
Would these men have committed treason?
I would suggest that most Texans would regard them as heroes, while most of the other 49 states would regard them as traitors.
It's strange to think that a bishop outside of the US who has all the gifts of the Spirit cannot discern the importance of the Constitution, or even acknowledge that it came from God, how and why, even to the point of mocking it and its origin.

D&C 46:27
27 And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.

freedomforall
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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by freedomforall »

Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:43 pmLet's say Texas decided to rebel against the US and leave the union. They armed a militia and fought against the national guard and other federal agencies sent to bring them into line. They fought them off with the help of the Russians, and then declared their independence.
The ring leaders then sign a new govenance document.
Would these men have committed treason?
I would suggest that most Texans would regard them as heroes, while most of the other 49 states would regard them as traitors.
This sounds like stories out of the Book of Mormon. Sometimes Lamanites became Nephites and vice versa and fought side by side against their own people. So what's new?

If you think that those men chosen by God to fight for the American side were traitors, I suggest you take it up with God. After all, the goal was to gain freedom from oppression and nut jobs trying to control everyone else.

Why else would God call our land the promised land, a land for prosperity and freedom? It's in the book!

eddie
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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by eddie »

MEN RAISED UP


The success of the Declaration of Independence and the Revolutionary War came about through men who were raised up by God for this special purpose. You must read the Declaration of Independence to feel its inspiration. You merely need to study history to recognize that a group of fledgling colonies defeating the world’s most powerful nation stemmed from a force greater than man. Where else in the world do we find a group of men together in one place at one time who possessed greater capacity and wisdom than the founding fathers—Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, and others? But it was not to their own abilities that they gave the credit. They acknowledged Almighty God and were certain of the impossibility of their success without his help. Benjamin Franklin made an appeal for daily prayers in the Constitutional Convention. In that appeal he said, “If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? I believe without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the building of Babel.” (Mark E. Petersen, The Great Prologue, Deseret Book Co., 1975, p. 88.)

Spaced_Out
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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by Spaced_Out »

lundbaek wrote: April 30th, 2017, 5:09 pm I do not hesitate to say, however, that Mormons generally have failed America. They/We are the only people on this planet who have been told by the Lord that He established the Constitution of the United States. And He told us how: that He established it by the hands of wise men whom He raised up unto that very purpose. (D&C 101: 80) He even told them that it was to be maintained for the rights and protection of all people (D&C 98: 5 and D&C 101: 77), and that its principles were to be established forever. (D&C 109: 54)
The constitution is a a righteous standard to live by. You constitutionalists are worse than conspiracy theorists - just a one tracked mined and ignore the bigger issue at stake. Blame every one else for failure, but cant see the real issues. The US Constitution cant save people it cant force righteousness the people have to have a good moral code of living as dictated by the bible else the constitution has no worth. Those that wrote the constitution understood that, how is it that you guys are unable to understand it. Just run around like a chicken without a head crying if more people stood up for the constitution the world would be a righteous place. No the moral code of conduct comes first prior to the constitution.

In a last ditch effort to save the world the Prophets started the Hastening, way to late to for some constitution to save the people. No no no no the people refused to repent when the missionaries preached the gospel to the citizens of the US that is why things have failed. The D&C is awash with scriptures saying the saints will be spared the the wicked who did not repent will be burnt. You now judge the members as being the cause of the wickedness - it is a pathetic misunderstanding and there are many scriptures to prove it.

D&C 109:45 We know that thou hast spoken by the mouth of thy prophets terrible things concerning the wicked, in the last days—that thou wilt pour out thy judgments, without measure;
46 Therefore, O Lord, deliver thy people from the calamity of the wicked; enable thy servants to seal up the law, and bind up the testimony, that they may be prepared against the day of burning.
Alma 31:5
5 And now, as the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just—yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them—therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God.

Helaman 4:22
22 And that they had altered and trampled under their feet the alaws of Mosiah, or that which the Lord commanded him to give unto the people; and they saw that their laws had become corrupted, and that they had become a wicked people, insomuch that they were wicked even like unto the Lamanites.

John Adams
Gentleman,
While our country remains untainted with the principles and manners which are now producing desolation in so many parts of the world; while she continues sincere, and incapable of insidious and impious policy, we shall have the strongest reason to rejoice in the local destination assigned us by Providence. But should the people of America once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another, and towards foreign nations, which assumes the language of justice and moderation while it is practising iniquity and extravagance, and displays I have received from Major-General Hull and Brigadier, General Walker your unanimous address from Lexington, animated with a martial spirit, and expressed with a military dignity becoming your character and the memorable plains on which it was adopted. in the most captivating manner the charming pictures of candor, frankness, and sincerity, while it is rioting in rapine and insolence, this country will be the most miserable habitation in the Nvorld; because we have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, • would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by Robin Hood »

freedomforall wrote: April 30th, 2017, 5:27 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:43 pm
freedomforall wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:19 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2017, 1:02 am

So what!
I also have no interest in these people; all of whom were technically treasonous.
Actually, those men you say were treasonous were among the smarter and wiser ones and this is why God chose them to sign the Constitution. Sad that you don't know your own history or related scripture showing these great men for who they truly were in the sight of God...not men.

Doctrine and Covenants 101:80
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

Treasonous, indeed!
Let's say Texas decided to rebel against the US and leave the union. They armed a militia and fought against the national guard and other federal agencies sent to bring them into line. They fought them off with the help of the Russians, and then declared their independence.
The ring leaders then sign a new govenance document.
Would these men have committed treason?
I would suggest that most Texans would regard them as heroes, while most of the other 49 states would regard them as traitors.
It's strange to think that a bishop outside of the US who has all the gifts of the Spirit cannot discern the importance of the Constitution, or even acknowledge that it came from God, how and why, even to the point of mocking it and its origin.

D&C 46:27
27 And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.
Strange for you maybe.
The truth is that some, and I emphasise the word "some" American members, even on this otherwise excellemt forum, exhibit what can only be described as arrogance when it comes to this issue.
Pride in ones country is one thing (and a good thing), but when that morphes into an arrogance that desires or even requires people not of ones country to comply with ones love of ones country's founding document, there is something seriously misguided in that national pride. It's a pride which has developed it's reasoming from "we're great" to "we're better than you".

Can you not see that we, non-American LDS, love our own country much more than we love yours? Can you not see that we have our own constitutions which were also inspired by God for our benefit? Have you not considered the possibility that God has a purpose in the nations; that it might just be possible that he isn't himself an American?

Celebrating your Constitution and the rights and priveleges it provides for the people of the US, and the good it's influence has done in the world through the American nation, is a good thing. Reading and studying it is also a good thing. But questioning the motivations of non-American committed LDS members residing happily in other nations, is thoroughly out of order, and in my view, very unAmerican.

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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by Spaced_Out »

Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2017, 2:14 am Strange for you maybe.
The truth is that some, and I emphasise the word "some" American members, even on this otherwise excellemt forum, exhibit what can only be described as arrogance when it comes to this issue.
Pride in ones country is one thing (and a good thing), but when that morphes into an arrogance that desires or even requires people not of ones country to comply with ones love of ones country's founding document, there is something seriously misguided in that national pride. It's a pride which has developed it's reasoming from "we're great" to "we're better than you".

Can you not see that we, non-American LDS, love our own country much more than we love yours? Can you not see that we have our own constitutions which were also inspired by God for our benefit? Have you not considered the possibility that God has a purpose in the nations; that it might just be possible that he isn't himself an American?

Celebrating your Constitution and the rights and priveleges it provides for the people of the US, and the good it's influence has done in the world through the American nation, is a good thing. Reading and studying it is also a good thing. But questioning the motivations of non-American committed LDS members residing happily in other nations, is thoroughly out of order, and in my view, very unAmerican.
Americans have crated more bloodshed and horror than any other nation on the earth all under the name of democracy - ISIS, Iran N.Korea Cuba, Somalia etc are all products of American hate and deservedly so....

lundbaek
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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by lundbaek »

It is not Americans generally that have created the bloodshed and horror to which Spaced-Out refers. It is "this secret combination" which the Lord thru Moroni told us "shall be among you", and which a latter-day Prophet, President Benson, told us "seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations and countries [and] is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world." that is responsible for the bloodshed and horror to which Spaced-Out refers. I fault some Americans for fomenting it, many Americans for not recognizing and trying to prevent it. And for those who think all the bloodshed and horror was created to promote democracy, I once again have a nice piece of real estate across the East River between Brooklyn and Manhattan for sale at a cheap price.

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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by EmmaLee »

Spaced_Out wrote: May 1st, 2017, 5:20 amAmericans have crated more bloodshed and horror than any other nation on the earth all under the name of democracy - ISIS, Iran N.Korea Cuba, Somalia etc are all products of American hate and deservedly so....
main-qimg-4f068db3c8820967b8944a795d8a7569-c.jpg
main-qimg-4f068db3c8820967b8944a795d8a7569-c.jpg (67.13 KiB) Viewed 1829 times

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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by creator »

So we need a graphic showing which US presidents killed the most people...

EmmaLee
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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by EmmaLee »

BrianM wrote: May 1st, 2017, 4:10 pm So we need a graphic showing which US presidents killed the most people...
Have any U.S. presidents killed more people than the men in the above graph? If so, please tell us their names and how many millions of people they have killed.

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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by Serragon »

Spaced_Out wrote: May 1st, 2017, 5:20 am
Americans have crated more bloodshed and horror than any other nation on the earth all under the name of democracy - ISIS, Iran N.Korea Cuba, Somalia etc are all products of American hate and deservedly so....
This is simply false. I am amazed that anyone could feel comfortable proselytizing a message like this when the truth is so readily available. You have to be extremely willfully ignorant to believe nonsense like this. There is no equation you can create where you can show the those tyrannical deathpits to be the product of the USA.

We definately have our sins to repent of. But in the scheme of things, western culture has been a bright light in an otherwise abysmally dark world. The very fact you can evangelize a ridiculous sentiment like you did is evidence of such.

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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by creator »

I don't know, it would be interesting to see a comparison.. and a comparison between different US presidents.
EmmaLee wrote: May 1st, 2017, 4:17 pm
BrianM wrote: May 1st, 2017, 4:10 pm So we need a graphic showing which US presidents killed the most people...
Have any U.S. presidents killed more people than the men in the above graph? If so, please tell us their names and how many millions of people they have killed.

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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by EmmaLee »

It would be. My guess is FDR or Lincoln would take the lead, don't know for sure though. My point (obviously) in posting the graph was to show what an ignorant statement was made by saying Americans have killed more people than anyone else in the world. Since no U.S. president has killed anywhere near the number of people these other dictators have, I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. Having said that, it's shameful that the U.S. has killed anyone that hasn't directly attacked us on our own soil. As bad as those numbers may be, they pale in comparison to the true mass murderers of the last century or two.
BrianM wrote: May 1st, 2017, 4:28 pm I don't know, it would be interesting to see a comparison.. and a comparison between different US presidents.
EmmaLee wrote: May 1st, 2017, 4:17 pm
BrianM wrote: May 1st, 2017, 4:10 pm So we need a graphic showing which US presidents killed the most people...
Have any U.S. presidents killed more people than the men in the above graph? If so, please tell us their names and how many millions of people they have killed.

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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by freedomforall »

Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2017, 2:14 am
freedomforall wrote: April 30th, 2017, 5:27 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:43 pm
freedomforall wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:19 pm

Actually, those men you say were treasonous were among the smarter and wiser ones and this is why God chose them to sign the Constitution. Sad that you don't know your own history or related scripture showing these great men for who they truly were in the sight of God...not men.

Doctrine and Covenants 101:80
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

Treasonous, indeed!
Let's say Texas decided to rebel against the US and leave the union. They armed a militia and fought against the national guard and other federal agencies sent to bring them into line. They fought them off with the help of the Russians, and then declared their independence.
The ring leaders then sign a new govenance document.
Would these men have committed treason?
I would suggest that most Texans would regard them as heroes, while most of the other 49 states would regard them as traitors.
It's strange to think that a bishop outside of the US who has all the gifts of the Spirit cannot discern the importance of the Constitution, or even acknowledge that it came from God, how and why, even to the point of mocking it and its origin.

D&C 46:27
27 And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.
Strange for you maybe.
The truth is that some, and I emphasise the word "some" American members, even on this otherwise excellemt forum, exhibit what can only be described as arrogance when it comes to this issue.
Pride in ones country is one thing (and a good thing), but when that morphes into an arrogance that desires or even requires people not of ones country to comply with ones love of ones country's founding document, there is something seriously misguided in that national pride. It's a pride which has developed it's reasoming from "we're great" to "we're better than you".

Can you not see that we, non-American LDS, love our own country much more than we love yours? Can you not see that we have our own constitutions which were also inspired by God for our benefit? Have you not considered the possibility that God has a purpose in the nations; that it might just be possible that he isn't himself an American?

Celebrating your Constitution and the rights and priveleges it provides for the people of the US, and the good it's influence has done in the world through the American nation, is a good thing. Reading and studying it is also a good thing. But questioning the motivations of non-American committed LDS members residing happily in other nations, is thoroughly out of order, and in my view, very unAmerican.
So what is it called when a non American who loves their country calls the Founders of our Constitution having been written and signed by non Americans,some from your beloved country....traitors? How does it feel to have the tables turned?

freedomforall
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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by freedomforall »

Genocides in history

United States

During the American Indian Wars, the American Army carried out a number of massacres and forced relocations of Indigenous peoples, acts that some scholars say constitute genocide. The Sand Creek Massacre, which caused outrage in its own time, has been called genocide. General John Chivington led a 700-man force of Colorado Territory militia in a massacre of 70–163 peaceful Cheyenne and Arapaho, about two-thirds of whom were women, children, and infants. Chivington and his men took scalps and other body parts as trophies, including human fetuses and male and female genitalia.[85] In defense of his actions Chivington stated.............

Read more at website.

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Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by Robin Hood »

freedomforall wrote: May 1st, 2017, 7:05 pm
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2017, 2:14 am
freedomforall wrote: April 30th, 2017, 5:27 pm
Robin Hood wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:43 pm

Let's say Texas decided to rebel against the US and leave the union. They armed a militia and fought against the national guard and other federal agencies sent to bring them into line. They fought them off with the help of the Russians, and then declared their independence.
The ring leaders then sign a new govenance document.
Would these men have committed treason?
I would suggest that most Texans would regard them as heroes, while most of the other 49 states would regard them as traitors.
It's strange to think that a bishop outside of the US who has all the gifts of the Spirit cannot discern the importance of the Constitution, or even acknowledge that it came from God, how and why, even to the point of mocking it and its origin.

D&C 46:27
27 And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.
Strange for you maybe.
The truth is that some, and I emphasise the word "some" American members, even on this otherwise excellemt forum, exhibit what can only be described as arrogance when it comes to this issue.
Pride in ones country is one thing (and a good thing), but when that morphes into an arrogance that desires or even requires people not of ones country to comply with ones love of ones country's founding document, there is something seriously misguided in that national pride. It's a pride which has developed it's reasoming from "we're great" to "we're better than you".

Can you not see that we, non-American LDS, love our own country much more than we love yours? Can you not see that we have our own constitutions which were also inspired by God for our benefit? Have you not considered the possibility that God has a purpose in the nations; that it might just be possible that he isn't himself an American?

Celebrating your Constitution and the rights and priveleges it provides for the people of the US, and the good it's influence has done in the world through the American nation, is a good thing. Reading and studying it is also a good thing. But questioning the motivations of non-American committed LDS members residing happily in other nations, is thoroughly out of order, and in my view, very unAmerican.
So what is it called when a non American who loves their country calls the Founders of our Constitution having been written and signed by non Americans,some from your beloved country....traitors? How does it feel to have the tables turned?
If the cap fits.......

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by Spaced_Out »

Serragon wrote: May 1st, 2017, 4:26 pm
Spaced_Out wrote: May 1st, 2017, 5:20 am
Americans have crated more bloodshed and horror than any other nation on the earth all under the name of democracy - ISIS, Iran N.Korea Cuba, Somalia etc are all products of American hate and deservedly so....
This is simply false. I am amazed that anyone could feel comfortable proselytizing a message like this when the truth is so readily available. You have to be extremely willfully ignorant to believe nonsense like this. There is no equation you can create where you can show the those tyrannical deathpits to be the product of the USA.

We definately have our sins to repent of. But in the scheme of things, western culture has been a bright light in an otherwise abysmally dark world. The very fact you can evangelize a ridiculous sentiment like you did is evidence of such.
:-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
America has destabilised and impoverished countless countries, Just as an example Ukraine, Libya, Afghanistan, and Syria were the latest CIA interference that started those wars. I fought in Angola and Namibia a war started by the US tying to prevent Russian influence in Africa. Angola today has the highest percentage of cripples. Where ever America interferes it leaves a trail of destruction. America is also the number one exporter of vice like porn and abortion.

If one had to do a real body count the US will be on top of the list by a factor of 10... You still believe all that propaganda they teach in the US schools.. haha you guys are too busy killing your own children to even care, and we won't talk about the Laminate genocide 50-100 million..

Abortions +60 million 300,000 just this year to date.
http://www.numberofabortions.com/

Just as an example - Korean War 1.5 million...

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/28/world ... ast-facts/
U.S. Troops Statistics:
Source: Dept. of Defense
U.S. Deaths:
Hostile: 33,739
Non-Hostile: 2,835
Total In-Theatre: 36,574
U.S. Wounded in Action - 103,284
Other Casualties by Country (killed and missing):
Source: Encyclopedia Britannica
South Korea - (217,000 military, 1,000,000 civilian)
North Korea - (406,000 military, 600,000 civilian)
China - (600,000 military)
Last edited by Spaced_Out on May 2nd, 2017, 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by Spaced_Out »

BrianM wrote: May 1st, 2017, 4:10 pm So we need a graphic showing which US presidents killed the most people...
Those guys represent a nation or were life presidents. US president only in office a few years t not applicable. See my previous post the US nation has killed and cause/ funded more wars than any other nation.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by freedomforall »

Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 12:14 am
freedomforall wrote: May 1st, 2017, 7:05 pm
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2017, 2:14 am
freedomforall wrote: April 30th, 2017, 5:27 pm
It's strange to think that a bishop outside of the US who has all the gifts of the Spirit cannot discern the importance of the Constitution, or even acknowledge that it came from God, how and why, even to the point of mocking it and its origin.

D&C 46:27
27 And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.
Strange for you maybe.
The truth is that some, and I emphasise the word "some" American members, even on this otherwise excellemt forum, exhibit what can only be described as arrogance when it comes to this issue.
Pride in ones country is one thing (and a good thing), but when that morphes into an arrogance that desires or even requires people not of ones country to comply with ones love of ones country's founding document, there is something seriously misguided in that national pride. It's a pride which has developed it's reasoming from "we're great" to "we're better than you".

Can you not see that we, non-American LDS, love our own country much more than we love yours? Can you not see that we have our own constitutions which were also inspired by God for our benefit? Have you not considered the possibility that God has a purpose in the nations; that it might just be possible that he isn't himself an American?

Celebrating your Constitution and the rights and priveleges it provides for the people of the US, and the good it's influence has done in the world through the American nation, is a good thing. Reading and studying it is also a good thing. But questioning the motivations of non-American committed LDS members residing happily in other nations, is thoroughly out of order, and in my view, very unAmerican.
So what is it called when a non American who loves their country calls the Founders of our Constitution having been written and signed by non Americans,some from your beloved country....traitors? How does it feel to have the tables turned?
If the cap fits.......
Sorry, but we don't wear these type of English manufactured caps.

Image

Ours are more cool looking for every day sports and showing how much Americans have advanced over the centuries.

Image

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by freedomforall »

Image

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13109
Location: England

Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by Robin Hood »

freedomforall wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 3:28 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 12:14 am
freedomforall wrote: May 1st, 2017, 7:05 pm
Robin Hood wrote: May 1st, 2017, 2:14 am

Strange for you maybe.
The truth is that some, and I emphasise the word "some" American members, even on this otherwise excellemt forum, exhibit what can only be described as arrogance when it comes to this issue.
Pride in ones country is one thing (and a good thing), but when that morphes into an arrogance that desires or even requires people not of ones country to comply with ones love of ones country's founding document, there is something seriously misguided in that national pride. It's a pride which has developed it's reasoming from "we're great" to "we're better than you".

Can you not see that we, non-American LDS, love our own country much more than we love yours? Can you not see that we have our own constitutions which were also inspired by God for our benefit? Have you not considered the possibility that God has a purpose in the nations; that it might just be possible that he isn't himself an American?

Celebrating your Constitution and the rights and priveleges it provides for the people of the US, and the good it's influence has done in the world through the American nation, is a good thing. Reading and studying it is also a good thing. But questioning the motivations of non-American committed LDS members residing happily in other nations, is thoroughly out of order, and in my view, very unAmerican.
So what is it called when a non American who loves their country calls the Founders of our Constitution having been written and signed by non Americans,some from your beloved country....traitors? How does it feel to have the tables turned?
If the cap fits.......
Sorry, but we don't wear these type of English manufactured caps.

Image

Ours are more cool looking for every day sports and showing how much Americans have advanced over the centuries.

Image
Really?
You surprise me, because we manufacture them exclusively for the American market.
Apparently you guys can't get enough of them. Some chap with the initials "KKK" apparently.

Serragon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3444

Re: Should Members of the Church Study and Abide by the US Constitution?

Post by Serragon »

Spaced_Out wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 1:10 am
Serragon wrote: May 1st, 2017, 4:26 pm
Spaced_Out wrote: May 1st, 2017, 5:20 am
Americans have crated more bloodshed and horror than any other nation on the earth all under the name of democracy - ISIS, Iran N.Korea Cuba, Somalia etc are all products of American hate and deservedly so....
This is simply false. I am amazed that anyone could feel comfortable proselytizing a message like this when the truth is so readily available. You have to be extremely willfully ignorant to believe nonsense like this. There is no equation you can create where you can show the those tyrannical deathpits to be the product of the USA.

We definately have our sins to repent of. But in the scheme of things, western culture has been a bright light in an otherwise abysmally dark world. The very fact you can evangelize a ridiculous sentiment like you did is evidence of such.
:-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
America has destabilised and impoverished countless countries, Just as an example Ukraine, Libya, Afghanistan, and Syria were the latest CIA interference that started those wars. I fought in Angola and Namibia a war started by the US tying to prevent Russian influence in Africa. Angola today has the highest percentage of cripples. Where ever America interferes it leaves a trail of destruction. America is also the number one exporter of vice like porn and abortion.

If one had to do a real body count the US will be on top of the list by a factor of 10... You still believe all that propaganda they teach in the US schools.. haha you guys are too busy killing your own children to even care, and we won't talk about the Laminate genocide 50-100 million..

Abortions +60 million 300,000 just this year to date.
http://www.numberofabortions.com/

Just as an example - Korean War 1.5 million...

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/28/world ... ast-facts/
U.S. Troops Statistics:
Source: Dept. of Defense
U.S. Deaths:
Hostile: 33,739
Non-Hostile: 2,835
Total In-Theatre: 36,574
U.S. Wounded in Action - 103,284
Other Casualties by Country (killed and missing):
Source: Encyclopedia Britannica
South Korea - (217,000 military, 1,000,000 civilian)
North Korea - (406,000 military, 600,000 civilian)
China - (600,000 military)

Numbers without context are just that.. numbers.

There is a vast difference between the Korean War and what Joseph Stalin did. There is a difference between offense and defense. You are drawing equivalency where it doesn't exist and then concluding the US is the worse by a significant measure.

You have accused others in this thread of having their minds fogged and not being able to think. I think a look in the mirror is in order.

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