Former church member launches ‘Mormon Wikileaks’

[Analyzing]

For those outside of Utah, thought you might want to see this. But then again nothing bothering me here. Move along Michael Alison Chandler and get a life. I just read this news article but I will continue to refuse to STAY AWAY from Mormon Wikileaks website.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=42827128&nid=14 ... lds-church" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The $120,000 annual salary given to the GA's is in addition to a very large and substantial financial 'gift' that is given to them when they are first called as a GA. I won't reveal what that is as it would cause great uproar here on the board.

So here's my question... many Stake Presidents and Bishops (and their Counselors) also give a LOT of their time to serve in the church - why aren't they compensated financially for their time? I know of some Bishops who serve up to 15-20 hours per week in their callings - where's their $60,000?

What bunch of crap, Flagg. I know from a very close, personal source this is not true.

The Mormon Wikileaks site is going to die because the only crap it can dig up is boring.

It is only when some source starts forcing the Church to make public what people confess to their Bishops that things will ever get interesting.

As it is now, this "information" isn't interesting, it doesn't add to transparency and it showcases how petty and weak the anti-movement has become.

so then the GA receiving money is or is not true then?

It is NOT true.

Gordon B. Hinckley
I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... g=eng&_r=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"General Authorities leave their careers when they are called into full-time church service," said Eric Hawkins, spokesman for the church. "When they do so, they focus all of their time on serving the church, and are given a living allowance. The living allowance is uniform for all General Authorities. None of the funds for this living allowance come from the tithing of church members, but instead from proceeds of the church's financial investments."

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=42827128&nid=14 ... lds-church

[skmo]

My first problem with an organization like this is clear: It almost certainly does not start with a desire to find pure fact, but rather someone's "truth" they wish others to share. It's very existence will serve as a tool that says "The LDS Church is hiding something and I'm going to find it."

That kind of an attitude can, I say CAN be motivated by a pure desire to ensure not one cent is ever misplaced of the Widow's Mite. In that same vein, political candidates CAN be honest in their campaign promises. Only a fool believes either will ever come to fruition. No one involved in this WANTS to make sure the LDS Church is shown to be fair and honest. If that happens, they don't succeed (and thereby get fame and/or fortune) by finding proper actions. They only look good by making sure other people look bad.

My second problem is this: Since they are specifically looking for something bad, they're going to find it. If it doesn't exist, someone will make sure to create what is needed. If you look for something long enough, you find it, even if it didn't previously exist. It's kind of the opposite of a placebo effect.

[JandD6572]

guess my concern with church money is something that I read today that the general authorities receive what is called a "cost of living" expense? of over 100 thousand a year?? apparently this is no secret with the western Mormons?? because this is new to me, also, is really bothering considering always being taught that they are not paid, so can someone share some light on this new (to me) information?? I never knew they received a pay check.

It was really disturbing for me when I first found out, too. Our family had sacrificed a lot in order to pay our 10% tithing on gross regularly.

Then I learned about how the scriptures teach that tithing is paid on your surplus only- meaning after you provide for your needs and the needs of your family, you then look at what is left over. This left over amount is what you take 10% of to pay your tithing.

This is also how mission presidents are instructed to pay tithing - only on their surplus.

We have a lot of poverty- stricken members in our ward. I try to help relieve that burden by explaining how the scriptures teach about tithing. Then when they find out that the GAs receive a nice salary, these members will not have withheld food from their families in order to sustain those salaries/stipends/allowances.

Now see, here again, tithing, this also is not how we been taught here in the East. we are always taught to pay it on the gross amount before paying anything else, it must come out first, and the lord will take care of the rest. so many different teachings for the very same principle. guess the way it is enforced in our minds is by asking if we want the before or after blessings. guilting us into more money? and still even the after taxes it is to be paid before anything else. makes living very difficult at times, and then only to find out that the GA's get a healthy sum of that very money what we struggle so hard to try and pay after being taught our entire lives that they do not get money. the church released today that they do receive a living expense. could you share with me the scriptures that tithing is to be paid from our surplus.

[butterfly]

guess my concern with church money is something that I read today that the general authorities receive what is called a "cost of living" expense? of over 100 thousand a year?? apparently this is no secret with the western Mormons?? because this is new to me, also, is really bothering considering always being taught that they are not paid, so can someone share some light on this new (to me) information?? I never knew they received a pay check.

It was really disturbing for me when I first found out, too. Our family had sacrificed a lot in order to pay our 10% tithing on gross regularly.

Then I learned about how the scriptures teach that tithing is paid on your surplus only- meaning after you provide for your needs and the needs of your family, you then look at what is left over. This left over amount is what you take 10% of to pay your tithing.

This is also how mission presidents are instructed to pay tithing - only on their surplus.

We have a lot of poverty- stricken members in our ward. I try to help relieve that burden by explaining how the scriptures teach about tithing. Then when they find out that the GAs receive a nice salary, these members will not have withheld food from their families in order to sustain those salaries/stipends/allowances.

Now see, here again, tithing, this also is not how we been taught here in the East. we are always taught to pay it on the gross amount before paying anything else, it must come out first, and the lord will take care of the rest. so many different teachings for the very same principle. guess the way it is enforced in our minds is by asking if we want the before or after blessings. guilting us into more money? and still even the after taxes it is to be paid before anything else. makes living very difficult at times, and then only to find out that the GA's get a healthy sum of that very money what we struggle so hard to try and pay after being taught our entire lives that they do not get money. the church released today that they do receive a living expense. could you share with me the scriptures that tithing is to be paid from our surplus.

I totally understand where you're coming from.
There are lots of threads on the forum that discuss how to calculate tithing. This is a good one that explains the view of paying on your surplus.
Everyone has an opinion, of course. Ultimately, pray about it and do as the spirit directs.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=40759&hilit=paying+tithing#p666693" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Analyzing]

My first problem with an organization like this is clear: It almost certainly does not start with a desire to find pure fact, but rather someone's "truth" they wish others to share. It's very existence will serve as a tool that says "The LDS Church is hiding something and I'm going to find it."

That kind of an attitude can, I say CAN be motivated by a pure desire to ensure not one cent is ever misplaced of the Widow's Mite. In that same vein, political candidates CAN be honest in their campaign promises. Only a fool believes either will ever come to fruition. No one involved in this WANTS to make sure the LDS Church is shown to be fair and honest. If that happens, they don't succeed (and thereby get fame and/or fortune) by finding proper actions. They only look good by making sure other people look bad.

My second problem is this: Since they are specifically looking for something bad, they're going to find it. If it doesn't exist, someone will make sure to create what is needed. If you look for something long enough, you find it, even if it didn't previously exist. It's kind of the opposite of a placebo effect.

I came to peace with the subject long ago. However, If I were to mention this subject in Sunday School or Priesthood meeting I would be excoriated.

Regardless, intent of those releasing information does not negate the subject. To believe that someone is at a mature enough spiritual level to accept that some people will end up in outer darkness for eternity yet it will be disrupting to spiritual progression to talk candidly about the financial benefits of the GA's is insulting.
I believe confusion and frustration among faithful members of the church is the problem.

guess my concern with church money is something that I read today that the general authorities receive what is called a "cost of living" expense? of over 100 thousand a year?? apparently this is no secret with the western Mormons?? because this is new to me, also, is really bothering considering always being taught that they are not paid, so can someone share some light on this new (to me) information?? I never knew they received a pay check.

The Presidency and GA's of the Church set the standards for how members are to conduct themselves. Honest and forthright is how members are instructed to conduct their lives and affairs. Definition of forthright: a : directly forward b : without hesitation. Synonyms for forthright
adj straightforward, honest,
categorical, sincere, outspoken. candid. plainspoken, blunt, aboveboard, bald, direct, directly, forward, frank, open, plain, real, simple, straight, up front, call a spade a spade, from the hip, like it is, no lie, undisguised.

Jesus: The Perfect Leader
By President Spencer W. Kimball

Because Jesus loved his followers, he was able to level with them, to be candid and forthright with them.

“Line upon Line, Precept upon Precept” (2Nephi 28:30)
By Elder David A. Bednar Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Sister Bednar and I have learned much as we visit with the youth of the Church. You are eager and anxious to learn the doctrines of the restored gospel. You want direct and forthright answers to your gospel questions. And you have earnest desires to appropriately apply correct principles in your daily lives.

Without Guile
Joseph B. Wirthlin Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

...If we are without guile, we are honest, true, and righteous. All of these are attributes of Deity and are required of the Saints. Those who are honest are fair and truthful in their speech, straightforward in their dealings, free of deceit, and above stealing, misrepresentation, or any other fraudulent action. Honesty is of God and dishonesty of the devil; the devil was a liar from the beginning. Righteousness is living a life that is in harmony with the laws, principles, and ordinances of the gospel....I believe the necessity for the members of the Church to be without guile may be more urgent now than at other times because many in the world apparently do not understand the importance of this virtue or are indifferent to it. We see and hear reports of fraud and deception in all levels of our society. A few citizens of some nations betray their country by exchanging sensitive information for money, information they have stolen or with which they have been entrusted. The entertainment industry seems to have lost, in large measure, the concept of moral values. Employees falsify expense accounts. These few examples of guile illustrate how pervasive it is.

Of far greater concern than the outward acts of guile are the inner feelings and the attitudes that motivate them. Fraud and deception appear to be increasingly acceptable; the only wrongdoing seems to be in being caught. The objective often is to get gain or to profit, regardless of the injury, loss, or damage to others. This attitude is totally contrary to the principles of the gospel. It hinders or thwarts the spiritual progress of anyone afflicted by it. The practice of guile prevents the Holy Ghost from prompting, guiding, and instructing us, leaving us ever more susceptible to the buffetings of Satan. When we break the commandments, we close ourselves to God’s influence and open ourselves to Satan’s influence.

If we practice guile in small matters, we soon can find ourselves entangled in an ever-increasing, unending spiral, because each lie or other deception often requires a larger one to cover the first. Moreover, the practice of guile often leads to hypocrisy, which is the false pretense of virtue or righteousness and pretending to be something that we are not. If we know what is right and profess to live by that knowledge but, in fact, do not, we are hypocrites. The Savior denounced hypocrites in unmistakable language. He declared:

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of … all uncleanness.

“Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity” (Matt. 23:27–28).

To the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord revealed: “Wo unto them that are deceivers and hypocrites, for, thus saith the Lord, I will bring them to judgment. …

“[They] shall be detected and shall be cut off, … and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world” (D&C 50:6,

What are the Latter-day Saints to do? The answer is plain. The Saints are to be absolutely without guile in every aspect of their lives: in their homes and families, Church callings, all business dealings, and, especially, the private and personal parts of their lives into which only they and the Lord see.

I suggest that we look into our hearts and see whether our motives and actions are pure and above reproach and to see whether we are free of deceit and fraud. Perhaps we can ask ourselves a few questions.

Are we totally free of guile in our conversations and associations with our spouses and children so they always know what to expect and always have unquestioning trust and confidence in us?

Are we forthright in our interviews with our bishops and other priesthood leaders?

Are we true to ourselves, our classmates, and our teachers in our schoolwork, even if a little cheating might improve our grades?

Do we do more work than our employers expect or require, and are we always alert for ways to do our work better?

Do we pay our employees fairly for their labors?

Do we file accurate tax returns?

Are we scrupulous in all business transactions to the extent that our associates always know they are being treated fairly and would feel secure if they had no contract?

Are we satisfied with our personal standards of integrity, morality, and honesty? Can we say of ourselves, as Jesus said of Nathanael, that we are without guile?

[Separatist]

Is 120k modest? I figure I've lived a pretty simple, modest lifestyle, and don't come close to 120k,

We can't get around the fact that this is paid priesthood / clergy, which seems problematic for a variety of reasons to me.

Is there a "+ benefits" to this package as well?

[Lizzy60]

Is 120k modest? I figure I've lived a pretty simple, modest lifestyle, and don't come close to 120k,

We can't get around the fact that this is paid priesthood / clergy, which seems problematic for a variety of reasons to me.

Is there a "+ benefits" to this package as well?

Yes, there is a +benefits to this salary. It includes health care, automobiles, a housing allowance, college tuition, travel, etc.
Pres Monson owns 3 homes (moderate, but still, three) and lives in a condo provided by the Church.

[Onsdag]

Sad, really.

Revelation from the Lord, Jesus Christ, to the Prophet Joseph Smith:

D&C 24:
15. And in whatsoever place ye shall enter, and they receive you not in my name, ye shall leave a cursing instead of a blessing, by casting off the dust of your feet against them as a testimony, and cleansing your feet by the wayside.
16. And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall lay their hands upon you by violence, ye shall command to be smitten in my name; and, behold, I will smite them according to your words, in mine own due time.
17. And whosoever shall go to law with thee shall be cursed by the law.
18. And thou shalt take no purse nor scrip, neither staves, neither two coats, for the church shall give unto thee in the very hour what thou needest for food and for raiment, and for shoes and for money, and for scrip.
19. For thou art called to prune my vineyard with a mighty pruning, yea, even for the last time; yea, and also all those whom thou hast ordained, and they shall do even according to this pattern. Amen.

The Lord has obviously commanded the Church in the latter-days to supply for the wants and needs of the Prophet and the Apostles - including monetary needs - so that they may labor unimpeded in the vineyard. Jesus Christ himself is the one who set the pattern for us. I ask you all now, has this command ever been rescinded? Why then are we disputing and arguing over the fact that current Prophets and Apostles receive monetary compensation from the Church? I'll tell you why - because Satan has great hold upon your hearts and is stirring you up in anger against the Lord's anointed servants. Indeed, as the scriptures tell us, unless you quickly repent you will find that you will receive "a cursing instead of a blessing" because you are not receiving His chosen servants in the name of Jesus Christ.

Good luck with that. =;

Edit: I might add for all those who have commented - that it's really a sign of your faith (or lack thereof) in the Lord Jesus Christ, His Church, and the Prophets and Apostles. This isn't about whether or not the Prophets and Apostles receive money from the Church - it's about where you stand and where your hearts are. Your hearts have been bared for all to see. The wheat and the tares continue to grow together until the time of harvest...

[Robin Hood]

For those outside of Utah, thought you might want to see this. But then again nothing bothering me here. Move along Michael Alison Chandler and get a life. I just read this news article but I will continue to refuse to STAY AWAY from Mormon Wikileaks website.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=42827128&nid=14 ... lds-church" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The $120,000 annual salary given to the GA's is in addition to a very large and substantial financial 'gift' that is given to them when they are first called as a GA. I won't reveal what that is as it would cause great uproar here on the board.

So here's my question... many Stake Presidents and Bishops (and their Counselors) also give a LOT of their time to serve in the church - why aren't they compensated financially for their time? I know of some Bishops who serve up to 15-20 hours per week in their callings - where's their $60,000?

15-20 hours? It's more like 25-30 hours most weeks.

Many years ago bishop's could keep 10% of the tithing receipts as compensation for the time they spent administering it. Then it was reduced to 8%, and at some point it was dropped altogether.
30+ years ago a bishop could claim an allowance based on the size of the congregation and the distance to the stake centre.

All of this has stopped.

[Analyzing]

Sad, really.

Revelation from the Lord, Jesus Christ, to the Prophet Joseph Smith:

D&C 24:
15. And in whatsoever place ye shall enter, and they receive you not in my name, ye shall leave a cursing instead of a blessing, by casting off the dust of your feet against them as a testimony, and cleansing your feet by the wayside.
16. And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall lay their hands upon you by violence, ye shall command to be smitten in my name; and, behold, I will smite them according to your words, in mine own due time.
17. And whosoever shall go to law with thee shall be cursed by the law.
18. And thou shalt take no purse nor scrip, neither staves, neither two coats, for the church shall give unto thee in the very hour what thou needest for food and for raiment, and for shoes and for money, and for scrip.
19. For thou art called to prune my vineyard with a mighty pruning, yea, even for the last time; yea, and also all those whom thou hast ordained, and they shall do even according to this pattern. Amen.

The Lord has obviously commanded the Church in the latter-days to supply for the wants and needs of the Prophet and the Apostles - including monetary needs - so that they may labor unimpeded in the vineyard. Jesus Christ himself is the one who set the pattern for us. I ask you all now, has this command ever been rescinded? Why then are we disputing and arguing over the fact that current Prophets and Apostles receive monetary compensation from the Church? I'll tell you why - because Satan has great hold upon your hearts and is stirring you up in anger against the Lord's anointed servants. Indeed, as the scriptures tell us, unless you quickly repent you will find that you will receive "a cursing instead of a blessing" because you are not receiving His chosen servants in the name of Jesus Christ.

Good luck with that. =;

Edit: I might add for all those who have commented - that it's really a sign of your faith (or lack thereof) in the Lord Jesus Christ, His Church, and the Prophets and Apostles. This isn't about whether or not the Prophets and Apostles receive money from the Church - it's about where you stand and where your hearts are. Your hearts have been bared for all to see. The wheat and the tares continue to grow together until the time of harvest...

Onsdag, Why do so many members of the LDS Church fervently believe that GA's do not receive financial benefits? I was told this by non members for years and did not believe it until President Hinckley's General Conference talk. Then I did not know what to think. Even after that talk. when I was seeking to understand. I was repeatedly told by local leadership things like... they have their travel and hotel and meals paid for etc. Never a honest forthright answer. As I said previously..

I came to peace with the subject long ago. However, If I were to mention this subject in Sunday School or Priesthood meeting I would be excoriated.

Why are people put in a situation of, as this thread demonstrates, not knowing and then if they ask being told that in some way their heart is not in the right place? This is an institutional problem. Not a members hate the Brethren problem. Why do you and others not help rid our Church of this stumbling block instead of coming after the question arises to chastise and shame? Where is your heart letting Mormon myth have a place in the Gospel?
Edit: spelling.

[Onsdag]

Onsdag, Why do so many members of the LDS Church fervently believe that GA's do not receive financial benefits? I was told this by non members for years and did not believe it until President Hinckley's General Conference talk. Then I did not know what to think.

I don't know. Maybe you should ask them. Maybe it's just an assumption on their part? Maybe they read the scripture where Christ tells his disciples to take neither purse nor scrip when they go proselyting and assume the same is to be applied now as well? I can see how such might be assumed, but I don't ever recall being taught as gospel that the General Authorities don't ever receive any financial compensation.

Even after that talk. when I was seeking to understand. I was repeatedly told by local leadership things like... they have their travel and hotel and meals paid for etc. Never a honest forthright answer.

That sounds like a pretty honest and candid answer to me. They receive help to cover living expenses as they travel and perform their callings. How is this not clear? What is being hidden or secretly covered up?

As I said previously..

I came to peace with the subject long ago. However, If I were to mention this subject in Sunday School or Priesthood meeting I would be excoriated.

Why are people put in a situation of, as this thread demonstrates, not knowing and then if they ask being told that in some way their heart is not in the right place? This is an institutional problem. Not a members hate the Brethren problem.

I'm not sure what to say. I specifically worded my statement to be both vindicating to the righteous, and to call out the wicked to repentance. If you go back and read my post you'll notice that I didn't call anyone specific out in this thread - yourself included. Perhaps if someone is pricked in their hearts then they should do some serious self-examination as to why that would be. As Nephi taught: "I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified,.. wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center."

How is it an institutional problem? I showed, in scripture, where the Lord has set forth (or instituted) the commandment for the Church to take care of the needs of the Prophet and the Apostles - including financial needs. If there is a problem it's not with the institution, but rather with the people who take issue with the practice the Lord has instituted or established.

Why do you and others not help rid our Church of this stumbling block instead of coming after the question arises to chastise and shame? Where is your heart letting Mormon myth have a place in the Gospel?
Edit: spelling.

Excuse me? I am stepping forth to help address this "stumbling block." You are bothered that I'm coming forward now, after the question arises? Well when is the best time to answer a question? After the question is asked, of course! I'm really left scratching my head on this one - as soon as I become aware of an issue I try to address the issue, but you rebuke me for not coming sooner before I was even aware of the issue?

[Dlight]

Sad, really.



The Lord has obviously commanded the Church in the latter-days to supply for the wants and needs of the Prophet and the Apostles - including monetary needs - so that they may labor unimpeded in the vineyard. Jesus Christ himself is the one who set the pattern for us. I ask you all now, has this command ever been rescinded? Why then are we disputing and arguing over the fact that current Prophets and Apostles receive monetary compensation from the Church? I'll tell you why - because Satan has great hold upon your hearts and is stirring you up in anger against the Lord's anointed servants. Indeed, as the scriptures tell us, unless you quickly repent you will find that you will receive "a cursing instead of a blessing" because you are not receiving His chosen servants in the name of Jesus Christ.

The thing is I don't want to judge. I am in a place where I would prefer not to judge, and hope the Lord will offer me grace in my weakness. I do have some thoughts, but I am still undecided. I think of Korihor however. He accused Alma of this very thing:

31 And he did rise up in great swelling words before Alma, and did revile against the priests and teachers, accusing them of leading away the people after the silly traditions of their fathers, for the sake of glutting on the labors of the people.

32 Now Alma said unto him: Thou knowest that we do not glut ourselves upon the labors of this people; for behold I have labored even from the commencement of the reign of the judges until now, with mine own hands for my support, notwithstanding my many travels round about the land to declare the word of God unto my people.

33 And notwithstanding the many labors which I have performed in the church, I have never received so much as even one senine for my labor; neither has any of my brethren, save it were in the judgment-seat; and then we have received only according to law for our time.

34 And now, if we do not receive anything for our labors in the church, what doth it profit us to labor in the church save it were to declare the truth, that we may have rejoicings in the joy of our brethren?

So if the brethren were confronted by Korihor they would not be able to answer the way Alma did. Now you can argue, "but the brethren aren't being paid for their church service they are being paid for there stewardship as CEOS of the corporate arm of the church." But should a corproate for profit arm really exist? And if so shouldnt a different set of people head it and be paid like regular jobs, and let the brethren focus entriely on spiritual matters?


Or you could say that, "today's finances and situations are much different than in the past, and require greater funds."

But we also know they they Get 120K + all travel expenses, + healthcare, Housing food allowances and more...So maybe 120 is too much? That doesn't include all their book deals either?

There was another person in Alma 1 who first did something like this.

2 And it came to pass that in the first year of the reign of Alma in the judgment-seat, there was a man brought before him to be judged, a man who was large, and was noted for his much strength.

3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people.

Later Alma says

12 But Alma said unto him: Behold, this is the first time that priestcraft has been introduced among this people.

I don't want to judge. I kind of feel wrong about it the same way I've never felt right about being paid to teach institute or seminary. IT always felt off to me, but in the end I will live my life the best I can, and let the Lord decide how to judge this. I can still learn and feel the spirit at church and the brethren still seem to give inspired messages.

[Separatist]

Jesus Christ himself is the one who set the pattern for us. I ask you all now, has this command ever been rescinded? Why then are we disputing and arguing over the fact that current Prophets and Apostles receive monetary compensation from the Church? I'll tell you why - because Satan has great hold upon your hearts and is stirring you up in anger against the Lord's anointed servants. Indeed, as the scriptures tell us, unless you quickly repent you will find that you will receive "a cursing instead of a blessing" because you are not receiving His chosen servants in the name of Jesus Christ.

Good luck with that. =;

Were the early saints casting stones at Joseph and Sidney who rejected the High Councils decision to pay them a salary?

After negotiations, they agreed to offer Rigdon and Smith an annual contract of $1,100 apiece, more than three times what the average worker of the day could earn. Ebenezer Robinson, the High Council's clerk, later wrote that "when it was noised abroad that the Council had taken such a step, the members of the Church, almost to a man, lifted their voices against it. The expression of disapprobation was so strong and emphatic that at the next meeting of the High Council, the resolution voting them a salary was rescinded." (Richard S. Van Wagoner, Sidney Rigdon, Pg 230.)

I would suggest the true pattern is full disclosure/transparency from the outset, and then accepted or rejected by the members. NOT something that is hidden that needs to be leaked out via Mormon wikileaks.

[ebenezerarise]

I don't know why this is so hard for people.

If you don't like how the Church handles its money then don't be a member of the Church and certainly don't give them money.

The Church has plainly said for DECADES the upper leadership of the Church gets paid a stipend and that those funds come from the businesses the Church owns NOT the tithing of the people.

Imagine that -- those same people who rail on Church owned things like malls and real estate are also the same people who think that highly educated, experienced professional people will give up outside opportunities at positions and income to be paid much less as church leaders and yet INSIST they give up all their time and outside pursuits FOR FREE.

Get real.

Better yet, get a clue.

There is one reason and one reason only for Mormon Wikileaks and it is only to sow discord through dissemination of information they should never have for the purposes of creating confusion and misunderstanding.

The Church is a private organization, not a public entity. It owes no explanations to anyone. If you don't like that, don't join it.

It always gets back to agency. Yours.

[tribrac]

So, with the news that the CIA is capturing and hacking data from all computer systems and all kinds of devices, and their hacking tools make it look like others did it.... you don't suppose this MormonLeaks is a setup by the CIA to maintain leverage over the church do you?

It is not hard to imagine the CIA through one of its many minions, asks the church to support __________ (pick a candidate or position), the church hesitates and the next week the unwitting Ryan McKnight gets an anonymous email with a few pay stubs from Elder Eyring.

Just a 'friendly reminder' of what is at stake.

[gruden2.0]

15-20 hours? It's more like 25-30 hours most weeks.

Many years ago bishop's could keep 10% of the tithing receipts as compensation for the time they spent administering it. Then it was reduced to 8%, and at some point it was dropped altogether.
30+ years ago a bishop could claim an allowance based on the size of the congregation and the distance to the stake centre.

All of this has stopped.

Interesting, I never knew that.

One thing I do know is Mission Presidents get some pretty hefty benefits for their work. As a missionary I was financial secretary for a while and it was evident that my Prez had a nice deal going.

[gruden2.0]

The Church is a private organization, not a public entity. It owes no explanations to anyone. If you don't like that, don't join it.

You're right, the LDS Church is an entity wholly owned by the Corporation of the First Presidency as a corporate sole, the same financial structure used by the Catholic church. Brigham Young first incorporated the church in 1851, if memory serves, and had everyone re-baptized into it. After the Supreme Court anuled the corporation, it was re-incorporated again in the early 1900s. Being as it is a corporation owned by only 15 men that is not publicly traded, it is under no obligation to disclose finances to the unwashed masses. Given that it markets itself as a church, it would seem a good gesture to open the books to show it's doing good deeds and other churchy things with its money. Yet they do not.

Interestingly, MormonLeaks would not exist if the Church made public disclosures of it's finances as it did until 1959. Question is, why did they stop? If they're being smart with the money, of what harm is it?

[ebenezerarise]

The Church is a private organization, not a public entity. It owes no explanations to anyone. If you don't like that, don't join it.

You're right, the LDS Church is an entity wholly owned by the Corporation of the First Presidency as a corporate sole, the same financial structure used by the Catholic church. Brigham Young first incorporated the church in 1851, if memory serves, and had everyone re-baptized into it. After the Supreme Court anuled the corporation, it was re-incorporated again in the early 1900s. Being as it is a corporation owned by only 15 men that is not publicly traded, it is under no obligation to disclose finances to the unwashed masses. Given that it markets itself as a church, it would seem a good gesture to open the books to show it's doing good deeds and other churchy things with its money. Yet they do not.

Interestingly, MormonLeaks would not exist if the Church made public disclosures of it's finances as it did until 1959. Question is, why did they stop? If they're being smart with the money, of what harm is it?

Why don't you bear your finances to all the world and show what good you're doing?

Stupid, huh?

The Church has nothing to prove. They are entitled to the same level of privacy as anyone else. If you're uncomfortable with that, don't join the Church and don't give them money.

And spend a little time learning some history. BY didn't have everyone get re-baptized. That happened in 1856-57, during the Mormon reformation and it was an effort led by Jedediah Grant, a member of the FP, not BY. Some were rebaptized. Many others were not.

And what, by the way, does that have to do with financial disclosure by the Church?

The Church is doing nothing that causes MormonLeaks to exist. It exists because you've got a disgruntled, former member who can't leave the Church alone tilting at windmills nobody cares about.

Really. Honestly. Truly. Nobody gives a rip about how much money the Church has or how it gets it. You see, the Church has been engaged in building businesses for most of it's history and it has done so legally. And yes, many of those businesses got their beginning off the donation and industry of early Church members. But I would venture that most new businesses the Church gets involved in today like are grown from profits and those funds are used for a variety of purposes that serve the Kingdom.

The Church doesn't flaunt what it does. It does not pay alms.

Don't like? Fine. Go away, leave it alone, move on. It's all pretty simple.

[gruden2.0]

Why don't you bear your finances to all the world and show what good you're doing?

Stupid, huh?

Not really. If I were accepting a lot of money from people as part of some kind of faith-based activity, then yeah, I would feel obligated to show them what is being done with it.

The Church has nothing to prove. They are entitled to the same level of privacy as anyone else. If you're uncomfortable with that, don't join the Church and don't give them money.

1. You're buying into the modern corporate notion that a corporation is treated by law as a person, not an organization. That is a Babylonian philosophy, not a spiritual one.
2. It's becoming increasingly evident people are joining the church in decreasing numbers, so maybe they're following your advice.

And spend a little time learning some history. BY didn't have everyone get re-baptized. That happened in 1856-57, during the Mormon reformation and it was an effort led by Jedediah Grant, a member of the FP, not BY. Some were rebaptized. Many others were not.

I am not conflating the two. Additionally, the leadership was re-ordained as well after the incorporation.

And what, by the way, does that have to do with financial disclosure by the Church?

The Church is doing nothing that causes MormonLeaks to exist. It exists because you've got a disgruntled, former member who can't leave the Church alone tilting at windmills nobody cares about.

Really. Honestly. Truly. Nobody gives a rip about how much money the Church has or how it gets it.

That's a silly comment. Money matters are inherent to any corporation, public or private. There will ALWAYS be people who care about that.

You see, the Church has been engaged in building businesses for most of it's history and it has done so legally. And yes, many of those businesses got their beginning off the donation and industry of early Church members. But I would venture that most new businesses the Church gets involved in today like are grown from profits and those funds are used for a variety of purposes that serve the Kingdom.

According to the Parable of the Talents, it's all supposed to be the Lord's money.

[inho]

...if the Church made public disclosures of it's finances as it did until 1959.

In my opinion, the public disclosures of 1950's and earlier were pretty useless. People often say that church should disclose its finances, but they seldom explain what they mean with that. Read Sam Brunson's article The Present, Past, and Future of LDS Financial Transparency in Dialogue. It tells the history, goes through some alternatives for disclosure, and gives possible reasons for why the church does not disclose its finances.

[ebenezerarise]

Anyone who has a problem with how the Church handles its own money is obviously not a member of the Kingdom and is out of step with the Lord's way of working.

[investigator]

2 Nephi 28: 9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. 10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. 11 Yea, they have all gone out of the away; they have become corrupted.