Is Capitalism Moral?

[Original_Intent]

Someone didn't watch the video

[Serragon]

Capitalism is evil and is a Babylonian economic system which requires losers and winners.
It requires the exploitation of resources, including people, for personal gain.
It is wicked and will not exist, in any form, in Zion.

This is completely false. This is a definition based upon your own biases, not reality.

Capitalism (or free markets) does not require anything. You are not required you to exploit anything. It does not require you to pursue personal gain. It is simply an environment where you can make decisions based upon your own values.

Zion is a free market system where everyone has chosen consecration over greed and profit.

[Robin Hood]

Zion is a free market system where everyone has chosen consecration over greed and profit.

.... and capitalism is a free market system where everyone has chosen greed and profit over consecration.

[jwharton]

Zion is a free market system where everyone has chosen consecration over greed and profit.

.... and capitalism is a free market system where everyone has chosen greed and profit over consecration.

How about you just talk about greed then?
Put forward any economic system and plug in greed and you have trouble.
At least in a free market system people are free to abstain from having a transaction with a greedy person.
However, if you have greed in a socialist system, people do not have the freedom to navigate around the greed.

[marc]

I'll give this one more shot. I did watch the video, by the way and I will add that I was a capitalist for decades. I loved and engaged in the free market starting when I was about the age of a cub scout. I went door to door offering services for a fair exchange. I would mow lawns or wash cars for two dollars, four or five dollars or whatever folks felt my labor was worth.

I made pretty decent money and even had regular customers. I won't get into the following decades where I became a paperboy, started my own businesses, owned an S corporation and an LLC, etc. Yeah, I made money the same way as always where it was equitable for both myself and my clients. I bought and sold goods and services, etc. Loved the free market.

Since then, however, having been born of the Spirit and because of my personal studies and prayer, I have since worked to reverse that lifestyle. I've owned all kinds of property, goods, toys, etc. But what this does is it robs God because everything that I thought I owned comes from the Earth. It is all God's. Furthermore, this created an inequality between myself and those who have nothing or very little. As long as this condition exists, Zion cannot exist.

Again, everything comes from earth--from under the earth, on the earth and above the earth. God organized matter. He brought all the elements together and created the earth, from which we have carved, created, forged, invented, utilized, traded, bought and sold everything around us. Everything. God ordained everything for the use of man to be used with good judgment, not by excess or extortion. He gave it all to us freely to gladden the heart. King Benjamin taught in his address that our very tabernacles are not our own (we are made from the dust of the earth, which is God's) and even the air we breathe is a gift.

It has always been His will that we be equal in all the things, which He has provided for us. And by doing so, He would bless us bountifully and so much so that when He opens the windows of heaven, there cannot be enough room to receive it. We can take a seed and turn it into a tree. We can take a tree and turn it into an orchard. We could turn the entire Earth into Eden if we hearken to the Lord. But man exacts a price. God does not. He gives freely. We take and then set up stakes. We create conditions above which the Lord has already decreed the conditions. And when we repent, He forgives our sins just for the asking. We don't pay a price. HE paid the price!

Mosiah 4:21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.

This is the economy of God! It is that He gives to us freely for the asking. And He wills that we become equal in ALL that He gives us by also giving just for the asking. Does anyone think that He cannot fill the entire Earth with gold or silver or jewels or anything from which they all came? The universe is filled with all kinds of elements. He did not institute capitalism. He instituted something much greater. Anything else comes of man and man is fallen. And because we are fallen, we are continually evil, as the brother of Jared declared. Man thinks he owns property. Man thinks he can do better than God has ordained. Captialism is just not of God and therefore it is evil. It is corruptible. It leads us away from Zion because God has decreed how Zion is to be built and redeemed.

We think we can do better or we can do something else. We were not meant to have a free market or to even create a market. But He grants us according to our desires according to our agency. And He has given us a law of tithes because we will not consecrate all ̶o̶u̶r̶ His property. And so we continue in this world trying to perfect an imperfect creation. It may be enough for man or for some men, but it falls infinitely short of God. Capitalism has not resulted in Zion. It will never build Zion.

[Serragon]

I'll give this one more shot. I did watch the video, by the way and I will add that I was a capitalist for decades. I loved and engaged in the free market starting when I was about the age of a cub scout. I went door to door offering services for a fair exchange. I would mow lawns or wash cars for two dollars, four or five dollars or whatever folks felt my labor was worth.

I made pretty decent money and even had regular customers. I won't get into the following decades where I became a paperboy, started my own businesses, owned an S corporation and an LLC, etc. Yeah, I made money the same way as always where it was equitable for both myself and my clients. I bought and sold goods and services, etc. Loved the free market.

This is a great example of the free market.

26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.

This is also a great example of the free market. You just don't realize it.

You believe that your first example IS the free market. However, that is simply how you chose to engage. The latter example is just as much a product of free markets as the first. You simply are choosing to engage differently. Your values have changed, and now you engage in trade in a more charitable manner.

Zion is the result of people in a free market choosing to consecrate. Markets are not the construct of man. They exist as a result of our god given nature. In the scripture above, it indicates we should give according to wants. The WANT or NEED creates a market. How that want or need is filled (or not filled) is the result of the choices of those involved... a free market.

[Serragon]

Or to put it another way...

Free markets do not lead to Zion. Free Markets allow an environment where people are free to choose Zion.

The problem isn't capitalism. The problem is our selfish natures and incorrect choices. it may appear that capitalism is to blame because it allows us the freedom to pursue our worst qualities. But it also allows us the freedom to pursue our best if we so choose.

[marc]

Well, according to the video, I need to have proof of performance. I need to have money or some medium of exchange; a "certificate." It is "proof" that I have served my fellow man. I can't just ask for and be given that steak just for the asking. A condition has been set. The first two minutes tells me all I need to know about the "free" market. It isn't free.

[David13]

Marc
"Free" doesn't mean your life consists of mooching off other people. It means you are free to make choices.

Capitalism is moral. To the extent that there are moral people in it. There are people who also follow Christ and make capitalism the benevolent system it was meant to, and has the potential to be.
In any system there will be those evil people who pervert the system.
For instance, 'welfare fraud'.
In no system are people "equal". There is no such thing.
In communism, people are not equal. There are some who become 'more equal' than the others, if you know what I mean.
dc

[marc]

Marc
"Free" doesn't mean your life consists of mooching off other people. It means you are free to make choices.

Capitalism is moral. To the extent that there are moral people in it. There are people who also follow Christ and make capitalism the benevolent system it was meant to, and has the potential to be.
In any system there will be those evil people who pervert the system.
For instance, 'welfare fraud'.
In no system are people "equal". There is no such thing.
In communism, people are not equal. There are some who become 'more equal' than the others, if you know what I mean.
dc

Mooching. I am still not certain people truly understand that we are all moochers. Every. Last. One. Of. Us. We are completely dependent on God for our very breaths. We mooch every single day. Every single minute of the day. You say there is no system where people are equal. I agree that does not exist today in the world. It cannot exist in Babylon. In Zion, it exists perfectly. And that is why we are not yet Zion.

[David13]

Marc
Some mooch. Some earn their way. And some earn enough to pay for others.
It's a world of difference.
dc

[marc]

Marc
Some mooch. Some earn their way. And some earn enough to pay for others.
It's a world of difference.
dc

We can never earn our way. Salvation is a gift. People want to earn their keep on earth despite the Lord's counsel to never deny His gifts, all of which are gifts of the Spirit. We simply cannot earn our keep. We do not have the capacity. We fall infinitely short. It is why God has given it all to us. That brings me back to my lengthy post.

[jwharton]

Marc
Some mooch. Some earn their way. And some earn enough to pay for others.
It's a world of difference.
dc

We can never earn our way. Salvation is a gift. People want to earn their keep on earth. We simply cannot. We fall infinitely short. It is why God has given it all to us. That brings me back to my lengthy post.

Those who enter a United Order who are capable of working but who are idle and slothful are cast out.
The gift is that God provides the foundation of righteousness and a system to liberate the righteous.
It is a mistake to try and make Zion into the one-size-fits-all magic bullet for everyone.
There are many people who are not worthy to be a part of the Zion society.
Worthiness requires those who are able to be a contributing asset.

[marc]

I said nothing of idleness or sloth nor did I imply that such have part.

[Separatist]

I can't just ask for and be given that steak just for the asking.

Sure you can. Some may give and some may not. There are places that give free food. But generally people tend to trade their labor (represented in dollars as a more effective media of exchange) for someone else's labor. You traded mowing lawns for a person cutting steak. What if instead of certificates of performance, you consider them certificates of consecration?

I said nothing of idleness or sloth nor did I imply that such have part.

Hmmm, so there's some sort of performance which must be demonstrated in order to stay? I can't just ask?

Is this similar to the above? Trading labor for labor? mowing for steak?

[marc]

I can't just ask for and be given that steak just for the asking.

Sure you can. Some may give and some may not. There are places that give free food. But generally people tend to trade their labor (represented in dollars as a more effective media of exchange) for someone else's labor. You traded mowing lawns for a person cutting steak. What if instead of certificates of performance, you consider them certificates of consecration?

I said nothing of idleness or sloth nor did I imply that such have part.

Hmmm, so there's some sort of performance which must be demonstrated in order to stay? I can't just ask?

Is this similar to the above? Trading labor for labor? mowing for steak?

I think I'm coming to a better understanding of what you are trying to explain. There must be some kind of operation, even supply and demand. I suppose you can say that God demands repentance, consecration, etc. We supply a broken heart, a contrite spirit, etc. The "market" that I have come to understand is one where the labor we perform is not to eat by the sweat of our brow. Manna falls from heaven freely. The windows of heaven open and pour out blessings greater than we are able to use. Capitalism is obsolete. But perhaps we now engage in games of semantics.

The "market" of Zion, as I understand it, is one where temporal needs are already met by the Lord and therefore irrelevant. We are unprofitable servants who take no thought for tomorrow's needs. We have been made equal in heavenly things by the Lord because we learned to be equal in earthly things. Someone asked you for spare change and you chose to give it to him because you were able and because of your love for the Lord and desire to walk as a disciple of Christ. The transaction ended there. It was an unequal transaction, which brought the both of you to more equal ground. It is just as when Christ will redeem us from the fall and into a more equal Celestial ground. Your labors are performed here.

In Zion, or at least, during the Millennium, where we are equal in all things through Christ's merit and not our own, His labors will be our labors. We will continue to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. We will prepare for the celestialization of earth. Free market capitalism, in my opinion, is irrelevant. Such a thing is an endeavor where you scratch my back and I scratch yours. We have no temporal needs that will not be given to us by the Lord. He scratches all our backs. Anyway, I am finding that I cannot adequately express myself.

[jwharton]

I can't just ask for and be given that steak just for the asking.

Sure you can. Some may give and some may not. There are places that give free food. But generally people tend to trade their labor (represented in dollars as a more effective media of exchange) for someone else's labor. You traded mowing lawns for a person cutting steak. What if instead of certificates of performance, you consider them certificates of consecration?

I said nothing of idleness or sloth nor did I imply that such have part.

Hmmm, so there's some sort of performance which must be demonstrated in order to stay? I can't just ask?

Is this similar to the above? Trading labor for labor? mowing for steak?

I think I'm coming to a better understanding of what you are trying to explain. There must be some kind of operation, even supply and demand. I suppose you can say that God demands repentance, consecration, etc. We supply a broken heart, a contrite spirit, etc. The "market" that I have come to understand is one where the labor we perform is not to eat by the sweat of our brow. Manna falls from heaven freely. The windows of heaven open and pour out blessings greater than we are able to use. Capitalism is obsolete. But perhaps we now engage in games of semantics.

The "market" of Zion, as I understand it, is one where temporal needs are already met by the Lord and therefore irrelevant. We are unprofitable servants who take no thought for tomorrow's needs. We have been made equal in heavenly things by the Lord because we learned to be equal in earthly things. Someone asked you for spare change and you chose to give it to him because you were able and because of your love for the Lord and desire to walk as a disciple of Christ. The transaction ended there. It was an unequal transaction, which brought the both of you to more equal ground. It is just as when Christ will redeem us from the fall and into a more equal Celestial ground. Your labors are performed here.

In Zion, or at least, during the Millennium, where we are equal in all things through Christ's merit and not our own, His labors will be our labors. We will continue to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. We will prepare for the celestialization of earth. Free market capitalism, in my opinion, is irrelevant. Such a thing is an endeavor where you scratch my back and I scratch yours. We have no temporal needs that will not be given to us by the Lord. He scratches all our backs. Anyway, I am finding that I cannot adequately express myself.

I think what Marc is doing is realizing some of the benefits of living in a society absent of usury of any kind, such as interest on loans or rents on assets. Life becomes very different when you don't have a mortgage/rent, car payments, food and energy bills hanging over your head. In the Zion society all of these basic needs will be in place with zero taxes, rents, interest, etc. While there will be a free market in Zion, the landscape will be entirely different than it is in Babylon.

Tie down those two mechanisms from Capitalism and you will have 99.9% of the Zion economic system.
And, here's the thing.... Force is not required to tie them down.

If people would simply consecrate their surplus to be made available usury free, the people would favor it over banks or landlords.
Who would go to a bank for a loan at interest when you can get a loan from the United Order for zero interest?
Who would pay rent to own a home when they could get a zero interest loan and buy a home outright?
It wouldn't be long before the Zion society put Babylon out of business.
So, those who fight for a truly free market economy are in fact fighting for Zion.
The reason the adversary uses all kinds of dirty tricks and intimidation to suppress Zion's economic system is because it will put him out of business.

[marc]

What think ye?

Matthew 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

[jwharton]

What think ye?

Matthew 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

The householder enjoyed the free market.
All should honor their agreements.

[marc]

Ah, but only the laborers called in the morning "agreed" on a wage. Lots of things to consider here.

[Separatist]

A private honest capitalist who understood the laws of supply and demand, paying a premium wage for those workers he needed at the end of the day?

I'd be interested in what would take place on day two. Would the workers who felt shafted arrive late in the day? Thus leaving the master with no workers at the start?

Interesting his response, "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil because I am good?" Interesting the capitalist calling the workers greedy bastards.

How bout these?

Parable of the talents

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Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not covet.

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13 And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.

14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?

15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

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28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

[Separatist]

Honest Money: The Biblical Blueprint for Money and Banking
http://www.garynorth.com/HonestMoney.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[davedan]

Law of Supply and Demand is another way to say "scarcity". We should not have an economy built upon the principle of scarcity which is "fear based".

The United Order would satisfy wants and needs. In reality, needs are very cheap to satisfy. Those in need would be required to do something for everything they receive. But wants, especially, would not be just given to people, but people would be empowered to work to achieve their wants.

Like the new LDS "My Path" program, people will be empowered to "get a new job", get "better employment" or "start a new business".

The economy would have simple or no-interest loans to assit people instead of exploit people.

[jwharton]

Law of Supply and Demand is another way to say "scarcity". We should not have an economy built upon the principle of scarcity which is "fear based".

The United Order would satisfy wants and needs. In reality, needs are very cheap to satisfy. Those in need would be required to do something for everything they receive. But wants, especially, would not be just given to people, but people would be empowered to work to achieve their wants.

Like the new LDS "My Path" program, people will be empowered to "get a new job", get "better employment" or "start a new business".

The economy would have simple or no-interest loans to assit people instead of exploit people.

With consecration implemented through United Orders everything starts to revolve around abundance.
And, instead of tithing consumption, as it is done currently, only abundance will be tithed.
You should only tithe that which is sacred and currently consumption is the name of the game.

[davedan]

My daughter was talking about taxes (income taxes) and that it is the only way for the government to make money. I taught her that the government can make money other pro-Constitutional ways.

1. Tariffs (tax imports to protect domestic manufacturing and prevent exploitation of poor countries)

2. Prime Interest (Constitution says that Congress should "coin" all the money. That means that Congress via the Treasury could lend that money to banks and even individuals with a simple "prime interest" rate (same as a fee). Right now, due to the FED and fractional reserve lending and the "money multiplier", the Congress doesn't create any money and doesn't make any money now on money creation (0% prime interest).


Safety Society System:
1. Congress Print 100% money
2. Congress lend money to communities, individuals, corporations via local SSS Banks
3. Congress charges a simple "prime interest" rate that amounts to a fee (borrowing should be more expensive than saving)
4. Loans only approved for "real assets" (property, buildings)
5. Real assets (land, development, and buildings) are the basis for the money creation
6. Money creation is on-demand as it is qualified for.
7. Local SSS Banks are non-profit and charge a fee to service the loan (loan origination)
8. Missed payments deducted from equity (automatic reverse mortgage = built-in insurance)
9. Default occurs when all equity lost.