Evil ISLAM. Isil, IS, Isis, Daesh.

[KMCopeland]

I hear these stories about ISIS's success in recruiting. A few weeks ago it was 2 teenage girls from London leaving comfortable homes and solid families to go join ISIS. I wonder how they could possibly be attracted to it, and I chalk it up to something I probably just don't understand about ISIS. But now there's a story of a veteran of the USAF, from New Jersey, who decided he'd join up. He is a recent convert to Islam, and he does live in the Middle East -- but his background is a pretty ordinary American one. This is getting pretty close to home. Home -- where ISIS seems so hard to understand, right? But haven't we had our own version of ISIS here? Didn't we once have a powerful, frightening group of people riding around the country killing people they didn't like? The KKK comes to mind. Is it the same thing? I think it's closer than we'd like to admit.

Estimates of ISIS's strength are all over the place. A low estimate is around 20,000, and a high one says nearly 200,000. But the Klan at its height was 5,000,000 strong. There was a time, and not all that long ago, that you needed Klan endorsement to be elected to public office, and that wasn't confined to the South by any means. It was true in lots of states well outside the South. ISIS doesn't have that kind of clout yet, and from the way the people in the region are laying down their lives to fight them, there's a good chance they never will. I guess we'll see.

The Koran condemns murder as roundly as the Bible does -- yet both the Klan and ISIS had/have no trouble at all murdering anyone in fact, it is/was the reason for their existences: the murdering of people they decide need to be murdered. The most upsetting similarity, to me, is that otherwise perfectly decent, normal people, approved of the Klan's attempt at genocide, they cheered it on, and they joined up to help them accomplish it. Like London teenagers, and an American Air Force veteran have done.

I've been disgusted by ISIS's refusal to show their faces by wearing masks -- the Klan does the same thing.

Those images of the little boys that ISIS is using -- they call them "lion cubs," made me nauseous. The Klan does the same thing.

ISIS pretends they're patriots. So does the Klan.

ISIS has perverted their religion. They claim their interpretation of Islam is the correct one. The Klan lays claim to Christianity too. They actually believed their murders were approved of by God. Much like ISIS does.


I'm sure that this "let's join ISIS and kill people we don't like so the only people left living are people we like" thing is the same thing that gave the Klan its appeal, to whatever benighted human beings found, and still find, the Ku Klux Klan appealing. Who still, believe it or not, join up. I think we should face the fact ISIS is not a Muslim phenomenon.

I'm pretty sure the Klan's heyday is over, while ISIS probably hasn't peaked yet. But the Klan is still around, and still recruiting, amazingly enough. And I see threads like "Evil Islam," and other hate speech about our own president and his family, sprinkled liberally around not just here, but all over political forums all over the internet, and I wonder just how far we might be from the barbarity that ISIS is engaged in -- which barbarity we feel so superior about. Because we're Christians after all.

[samizdat]

You bring an interesting perspective to this forum. PLEASE do not leave it. Why do you think I didn't immediately gripe at what Obama had to say about Christians doing the things they did a thousand years ago or more recently under the Jim Crow laws? The Klan weren't just against blacks but also against Catholics, Jews, AND Mormons. I would know because I grew up in Texas and my dad's family grew up in the South. Despicable people.

The main difference is that today the Klan is largely rejected except in racist pockets in the deep South, but in Europe neo-Nazi movements are growing up once again. And in the Middle East, ISIS is certainly not losing its popularity though there are Muslims against them. I say not losing popularity because they struck another museum in another North African country...

[KMCopeland]

You bring an interesting perspective to this forum. PLEASE do not leave it. Why do you think I didn't immediately gripe at what Obama had to say about Christians doing the things they did a thousand years ago or more recently under the Jim Crow laws? The Klan weren't just against blacks but also against Catholics, Jews, AND Mormons. I would know because I grew up in Texas and my dad's family grew up in the South. Despicable people.

The main difference is that today the Klan is largely rejected except in racist pockets in the deep South, but in Europe neo-Nazi movements are growing up once again. And in the Middle East, ISIS is certainly not losing its popularity though there are Muslims against them. I say not losing popularity because they struck another museum in another North African country...

Thanks buddy. I will disagree with you on one point: the Klan has chapters in almost all 50 states. The Pennsylvania group is one of the most active. Southerners are ashamed of the fact that it was born here, and of the horrible things they did here for so long -- so ashamed that they overcompensate. There are still racists here -- but boy are they unwelcome.

[Elizabeth]

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/04/husba ... -123381278" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Says Abu Bakr of his wife’s arreston jihad terror charges: “I don’t believe any of it, period. We are all shocked, the whole community. That’s not who she is.” But back in 2007, Abu Bakr was photographed at the Muslim Day Parade in New York City with the black flag of jihad. He carried it at other parades as well.
…One of the two Queens women accused of plotting a homemade bomb strike on American soil worked at a preschool,
Asia Siddiqui, a 31-year-old native of Saudi Arabia, was behind bars Friday, locked up with her best friend and accused sister in jihad Noelle Valentzas, 28.
A federal criminal complaint said the two suspects were overheard repeatedly discussing violent activities with the undercover agent — including a plot to bomb a police funeral. Siddiqui was arrested in possession of propane gas tanks and instructions on converting them into bombs. "

[David13]

Oh but Regina, they only do that for peaceful purposes. They are of a religion of peace. I know, Obama said so.
dc

[Elizabeth]

[gruden2.0]

Interesting that citizens of our country call an entire religion evil, while said country flies drones over many of their countries, bombing and killing hundreds of people daily without due process - many of which are innocent and are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or the thousands of Iraqi children born with horrible deformities due to the fallout from depleted uranium the US forces used during the invasion. Is that good?

You might also want to Google Gen. Wesley Clark and who he indicated was responsible for the creation of an organization like ISIS in the first place.

Maybe the people of this country should do a little soul-search before making such outrageous judgments about others. There's lots of blood on our hands.

[Elizabeth]

Which country are you referring to as "our" and "this". This is the world wide internet, not confined to a specific country.

Interesting that citizens of our country call an entire religion evil,...

... Maybe the people of this country should do a little soul-search before making such outrageous judgments about others. There's lots of blood on our hands.

[KMCopeland]

Oh but Regina, they only do that for peaceful purposes. They are of a religion of peace. I know, Obama said so. dc

Wasn't it George Bush who said that?

[samizdat]

A few things about Islam that people should know on this forum...

The word ALLAH means God in the same sense that YHVH means God in Hebrew. Kitaab al Mormon (the Arabic translation of the Book of Mormon) has God down as ALLAH.

Many people joined Islam looking for a reestablishing of the Church order having been lost previously and they saw Mohammed as a type of person that rejuvenated the truth. Where Mohammed and I part ways is where he said that Jesus wasn't the son of God and also some of his more violent Suras before the end of his life.

Islam does not mean peace. It means submission to the will of Allah. Not that much different than the Mormon practice of sacrifice and obedience to God, submitting ourselves to the will of the Father.

Islam evil? I doubt it. Evil practitioners of Islam? There are, especially in parts of Syria, Iraq, Libya, and Nigeria right now. Evil practitioners of Christianity? There are, especially in the Ku Klux Klan and some militia groups. Evil practitioners of Judaism? Those that killed Christ, definitely so. Evil practitioners of Mormonism? Look up Mountain Meadows.

Good practitioners of Islam? Rizwan Khan (there's a movie about him) is one example. The leaders of the Caliphate of Cordoba, where Moshe Maimonides (a Jewish philosopher) as well as many Christians that lived under him lived in peace, other examples.

Moral of the story? There are good and bad practitioners of any faith. To call a religion one hundred times bigger than your own in membership questions strikes me of insecurity more than any other thing.

[KMCopeland]

Which country are you referring to as "our" and "this". This is the world wide internet, not confined to a specific country.

His comment still applies.

[KMCopeland]

Moral of the story? There are good and bad practitioners of any faith. To call a religion one hundred times bigger than your own in membership questions strikes me of insecurity more than any other thing.

Or just garden variety mean-spiritedness and sanctimony. Plus the age-old need to feel superior to someone -- anyone. I think that especially unattractive part of human nature, that need to feel superior, is at the bottom of racism too, side by side with this "evil Islam" nonsense.

[samizdat]

Moral of the story? There are good and bad practitioners of any faith. To call a religion one hundred times bigger than your own in membership questions strikes me of insecurity more than any other thing.

Or just garden variety mean-spiritedness and sanctimony. Plus the age-old need to feel superior to someone -- anyone. I think that especially unattractive part of human nature, that need to feel superior, is at the bottom of racism too, side by side with this "evil Islam" nonsense.

This is the reverse effort of the Potemkin village that Uchtdorf mentioned in Priesthood meeting. It strikes of insecurity more than any other thing.

I don't have to demean another religion to raise mine up. I leave that to the so called Christian ministries that have historically tried to down Mormonism. I once took part in that myself to discredit Denver Snuffer. While I don't believe he is a prophet, I figure that if I leave him alone, he won't bother me.

President Uchtdorf really opened up my eyes to what really needs to be going on in the house of the faithful. We all have some repenting to do.

[KMCopeland]

Moral of the story? There are good and bad practitioners of any faith. To call a religion one hundred times bigger than your own in membership questions strikes me of insecurity more than any other thing.

Or just garden variety mean-spiritedness and sanctimony. Plus the age-old need to feel superior to someone -- anyone. I think that especially unattractive part of human nature, that need to feel superior, is at the bottom of racism too, side by side with this "evil Islam" nonsense.

This is the reverse effort of the Potemkin village that Uchtdorf mentioned in Priesthood meeting. It strikes of insecurity more than any other thing.

I don't have to demean another religion to raise mine up. I leave that to the so called Christian ministries that have historically tried to down Mormonism. I once took part in that myself to discredit Denver Snuffer. While I don't believe he is a prophet, I figure that if I leave him alone, he won't bother me.

President Uchtdorf really opened up my eyes to what really needs to be going on in the house of the faithful. We all have some repenting to do.

Yes we do.

[David13]

Mountain Meadows, one lone sole incident long ago, does not in any way compare with what Islam is up to today.
I think it's mean spirited and sanctimonious to deny the truth.
But if somebody has an agenda to follow then the truth will only get in the way.
dc

[samizdat]

Mountain Meadows, one lone sole incident long ago, does not in any way compare with what Islam is up to today.
I think it's mean spirited and sanctimonious to deny the truth.
But if somebody has an agenda to follow then the truth will only get in the way.
dc

Why do several Church authorities then, such as President Hinckley, President Packer, and even early Church leaders such as Joseph Smith and George Q. Cannon praise Mohammed and Islam?

Why does the Church have congregations in Muslim lands such as Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, Turkey, and Albania? Or in central Nigeria where Boko Haram is active?

This isn't about an agenda. If they wanted to kill all of us they would have done so by now and easily considering that one in five people on the earth are Muslim.

Calling an entire religion evil for the actions of a few people is absurd and reeks of insecurity.

There are people that go off on the Mormons for what happened in Mountain Meadows, even though that was a tiny minority of the people involved in that. I illustrated the MMM for precisely that purpose.

[samizdat]

Mountain Meadows, one lone sole incident long ago, does not in any way compare with what Islam is up to today.
I think it's mean spirited and sanctimonious to deny the truth.
But if somebody has an agenda to follow then the truth will only get in the way.
dc

What is the truth? That in Islam, there are quite a few people who have used it as a banner to slaughter innocents. If Islam is such a bad religion that has no tolerance, how come it was the most tolerant religion 1000 years ago, where Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived in peace in the Caliphate of Cordoba, Spain? And when the Catholic kings of Spain took over the country, it was the Muslims who welcomed the Jews into Northern Africa.

How come Reccep Erdogan, Turkey's president who is the most visible Islamist the country has seen since the Ottoman Empire, not only recognized the LDS Church in his country but permitted the entrance of proselyting missionaries?

How come Pakistan, the protector of the Taliban and the Wahhabist Saudi Arabian mindset, has allowed proselyting missionaries within its borders and where there are three districts?

How come Indonesia, the most populous Muslim country in the world, has been able to live peacefully with Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists, not to mention the Church which has two stakes and a district within its country?

How come the Church maintains a presence (granted, among expatriates) in several Arabian Peninsula countries?

How come the Church has maintained afloat in Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, and Morocco?

[KMCopeland]

Mountain Meadows, one lone sole incident long ago, does not in any way compare with what Islam is up to today.

The difference is of degree. The point is to get you to understand that human beings are more the same than different, regardless of religion.

I think it's mean spirited and sanctimonious to deny the truth.

But it isn't. It's merely ignorant.

But if somebody has an agenda to follow then the truth will only get in the way. dc

Truer words were never spoken.

[David13]

Well, I cannot see much of any similarity betwixt and between Mormons and Moslims. Nor between any Moslim country I have visited and say Utah.
So yeah, degree is exactly my point.
Evil is when good men do nothing. Have you heard that before? So denying the truth can become dangerous, can't it.
I also have to ask, how did Islam get classified as a religion. I am not at all convinced that it is a religion.
Is communism a religion? Do you classify communism as a religion? Are you aware of the communist attitude toward religion? Communism has been called the religion of the state, where the state is the God, the father, the parents, all things to the individual.
With regard to Mountain Meadow, did John Lee and company declare a holy war on the deceased prior to the attack? Did they even know what the religion of the other settlers was, if any?
Degree. That is like the difference between a mountain and a molehill, isn't it?
dc

[KMCopeland]

Well, I cannot see much of any similarity betwixt and between Mormons and Moslims. Nor between any Moslim country I have visited and say Utah.

The similarity is that Mormons and Muslims are both human beings. The religions aren't real similar, and neither are Utah and Egypt.

Evil is when good men do nothing. Have you heard that before? So denying the truth can become dangerous, can't it.

I have heard that before, but denying the truth isn't good men doing nothing. It's bad men doing something bad. And yes, denying the truth can be dangerous. Who's denying the truth? Me by insisting Islam is not inherently evil? Since it isn't?

You can't deny a truth if it's a falsehood.

I also have to ask, how did Islam get classified as a religion. I am not at all convinced that it is a religion.

My goodness. Well, it got classified as a religion the same way any religion gets classified as a religion: by the people who claim it as their religion. In the 6th or 7th century. And I'm afraid it qualifies by pretty much any definition of religion.

Is communism a religion? Do you classify communism as a religion?

No. I don't classify communism as a religion. Communism is a political system.

Are you aware of the communist attitude toward religion?

I thought I was.

Communism has been called the religion of the state, where the state is the God, the father, the parents, all things to the individual.

Who called it that? You? Weren't you just objecting to someone saying something is a religion if it doesn't qualify as one?

Marx and Lenin were both atheists. I don't know what you're talking about.

With regard to Mountain Meadow, did John Lee and company declare a holy war on the deceased prior to the attack? Did they even know what the religion of the other settlers was, if any?

No, and no. You're supposed to see that you don't have to be a Muslim to commit mass murder in the name of religion.

[David13]

KM
It seems like you are quite frustrated here.
You didn't say anything about comparing a mountain to a molehill. I think it's because you know the difference.
You tell me what I'm supposed to see.
Well, let me tell you what you must see, unless you are blind.
Virtually all of the hundreds, no thousands of mass murders committed in the world today, world wide, not just southern Utah, but southern Utah also, is committed by not, n o t, not the Mormons but by one religion and one religion alone. And this word Jihad, this is not a Mormon word. Where does it come from? Yes, you know.
And you see this. And you deny this.
And that is wrong. And that is what you are supposed to see. Fact. Not slander. Not speaking ill of a religion, if it is one, but speaking truth.
There is danger afoot. And people are "embracing" it. It is being imported. Brought in. Made our next door neighbors.
dc

[samizdat]

KM
It seems like you are quite frustrated here.
You didn't say anything about comparing a mountain to a molehill. I think it's because you know the difference.
You tell me what I'm supposed to see.
Well, let me tell you what you must see, unless you are blind.
Virtually all of the hundreds, no thousands of mass murders committed in the world today, world wide, not just southern Utah, but southern Utah also, is committed by not, n o t, not the Mormons but by one religion and one religion alone. And this word Jihad, this is not a Mormon word. Where does it come from? Yes, you know.
And you see this. And you deny this.
And that is wrong. And that is what you are supposed to see. Fact. Not slander. Not speaking ill of a religion, if it is one, but speaking truth.
There is danger afoot. And people are "embracing" it. It is being imported. Brought in. Made our next door neighbors.
dc

No one (except maybe Obama) is denying that the Islamic State has Islamic roots. But it seems that your intepretation of Islam has been morphed by the neocons that ironically decided to have elections in Palestine and Iraq that resulted in more Islamic governments.

The way of the Islamic State is a radically intepreted view of Islam. Think: a type of Crusade if you will but from another religion. There are many, many Muslims that have been slaughtered by them because they don't like the way they worship Allah. Just as in the Crusades where many victims also happened to be Christian that did not share the same fervor as the Pope or that happened to belong to the nascent Orthodox faith (which they will argue that the Catholics were the nascent ones and not them).

You go to Yugoslavia, in THIS century, or Ireland, there are people fighting over the correct interpretation of Christianity. The Orthodox Serbs had the Catholic Croatian's fingers cut off so that they couldn't do the sign of the cross with all five fingers, but with only three fingers (which is the Orthodox tradition). Read up on the Balkans or the Ireland conflict and you will see where I am going with this.

Just ten miles from where I am typing this there is a small town who stones ANYONE coming into the town who isn't Catholic. I was in the Muslim sector of San Cristobal, Chiapas, Mexico, and no one ever bothered me, and I had my name tag on as a missionary there. Next door to the city of San Cristobal is San Juan Chamula, and ANYONE who doesn't suscribe to the Catholic religion mixed with Maya that the people worship there, is summarily chased out of town, their possessions burned.

Go to Buddhist Myanmar and try being a minority religion there. There is heavy persecution there, meted out by Buddhists against Hindus, Muslims, and Christians.

When Obama said what he said about Christians in the prayer breakfast a couple of months ago and Elder Christoffersen attended that, he had nothing to say against the president, but rather congratulated the president on his humility in a FB post. What did we get in the media? A thirty second sound bite blown WAY out of proportion.

[samizdat]

KM
It seems like you are quite frustrated here.
You didn't say anything about comparing a mountain to a molehill. I think it's because you know the difference.
You tell me what I'm supposed to see.
Well, let me tell you what you must see, unless you are blind.
Virtually all of the hundreds, no thousands of mass murders committed in the world today, world wide, not just southern Utah, but southern Utah also, is committed by not, n o t, not the Mormons but by one religion and one religion alone. And this word Jihad, this is not a Mormon word. Where does it come from? Yes, you know.
And you see this. And you deny this.
And that is wrong. And that is what you are supposed to see. Fact. Not slander. Not speaking ill of a religion, if it is one, but speaking truth.
There is danger afoot. And people are "embracing" it. It is being imported. Brought in. Made our next door neighbors.
dc

Jihad is not a Mormon word but an Arabic one that means "struggle." It is the undeclared sixth pillar of Islam. For us Mormons, this has been done once for all by Issa (Jesus Christ) and thus does not need to be done by us, except the part of living the commandments, which for some can be a struggle.

Jahiliyah is not a Mormon word either. It is an Arabic word used by many Muslims that describes the time before Mohammed. The literal translation: Age of Ignorance. Apostasy.

There are quite a few parallels between Mormonism and Islam.

[KMCopeland]

KM It seems like you are quite frustrated here.
You didn't say anything about comparing a mountain to a molehill. I think it's because you know the difference. You tell me what I'm supposed to see.

Well, let me tell you what you must see, unless you are blind.

Virtually all of the hundreds, no thousands of mass murders committed in the world today, world wide, not just southern Utah, but southern Utah also, is committed by not, n o t, not the Mormons but by one religion and one religion alone. And this word Jihad, this is not a Mormon word. Where does it come from? Yes, you know.

And you see this. And you deny this.

I haven't denied that jihad is not a Mormon word. I believe the Saints are among the finest people in the world, bar none. I also know, because it's a statistical certainty, that the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world or good, fine, honorable people too.

I think you are the one being stubborn here. My only point -- the only one -- is that human beings are capable of horrible things. Not religions. It is as unfair to assume all Mormons are mass murderers based on Mountain Meadows as it is to assume all Muslims are mass murderers based on ISIS.

There is danger afoot. And people are "embracing" it. It is being imported. Brought in. Made our next door neighbors. dc

Now that is true. But you imply that before ISIS, there was no danger of mass murder in this country. Of bombs, or terrorism in any form. I think you should face the fact that alert as we must truly be to ISIS's habit of importing terror into this country by stealth, that we've had a problem with domestic terrorism long before ISIS even had a name, which means that ISIS is truly only part of the problem. It may be the latest shiny object to catch our attention. But all that means is we're easily distracted.

[Elizabeth]

http://www.wnd.com/2015/04/u-s-cities-s ... migration/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“With Muslim immigrants streaming into the United States at a rate of 100,000 per year, some of the communities targeted for new arrivals are seeking information on their new neighbours, only to be frustrated by federal bureaucrats and their hired contractors. How does a city get on the U.S. State Department’s list of 190 communities selected for refugee resettlement? How can cities find out who will be coming and when? What services will they use, and what will be the cost to taxpayers? And, the granddaddy of all questions: Can the communities be assured that foreign nationals with ties to ISIS, al-Shabab and other Islamic terrorist groups won’t slip through the government’s porous screening process posing as “refugees”? The answers to these questions are simple. Very little information is available. And there are no guarantees that some very bad apples won’t arrive in your town, says a leading expert on the refugee resettlement program.”