Does anyone know..

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reese
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Does anyone know..

Post by reese »

Does anybody know anything about a man named Ogden Kraut?

Rand
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by Rand »

Nope, but I have heard of him. I found this at:
http://www.morningliberty.com/2010/05/2 ... den-kraut/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The Life of Ogden Kraut
Ogden Kraut was a convert to the LDS Church, “ the Mormons. “
Coming to grips with the truth of the Book of Mormon and gaining a conviction that Joseph Smith was a modern day Prophet in his day are a couple of the vivid transitions that people go through after they join the L D S Church.
In the oceans there are all kinds of fish. In the Mormon Church there are all kinds of members, people with varying degrees of religious understanding. Some men and women simply do what they are told by their clergy leaders. Some people worship Jesus and try to fit in with changing leadership and policies. A few people go off, on their own and pursue their own study, gaining their own understanding of things.
Joseph Smith used to teach and practice doctrines that the main Church today keeps trying to put behind them.
You can't hide the true history of the L D S Church.
Ogden Kraut became a Sunday School teacher. Easy, P C answers to gospel questions were not enough for him.
Before Ogden Kraut passed away his reputation proceeded him and most people either loved him or hated him. Ogden Kraut's life became a living example to ' all of the truths, “ that Joseph Smith used to espouse.
Ogden Kraut became a prolific writer on significant Principles of the Gospel that Joseph Smith used to teach and live. As Ogden Kraut continued to research he would share the true documentation of the true Mormon History that he found.
A few Mormon researchers love the research and documentation that Ogden Kraut has offered to the public. Ogden Kraut was famous for documenting the true history of polygamy and the Adam-God Doctrine and Blood Atonement and the Dream Mine, just to name a few.
Most Mormons have never heard of Ogden Kraut's work and if they did they would disdain him and his claims.
There are many Ultra Mormon sects, “ Mormon Fundamentalists, “ and some of these thousands and thousands of followers of Joseph Smith appreciate some of Ogden Kraut's work and some fundamentalists despise Ogden's work.
Whether you choose to love Ogden Kraut or hate Ogden Kraut at least here is 1 man who risked everything to follow his convictions and he was willing to discuss these things publicly.

Rand
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by Rand »

More here:
http://ofimmortalityandheaven.blogspot. ... kraut.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Does anyone know..

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reese wrote:Does anybody know anything about a man named Ogden Kraut?
Not a whole lot... but I know he is a Fundamentalist, and has written a lot of books: http://ogdenkraut.com/bookavailability.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He's also no longer living.

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iamse7en
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by iamse7en »

I believe he falls under the "Independent Fundamentalist Mormons" category. He was a member of the LDS Church and decided he must practice plural marriage, believe Adam-God, etc. You can get a better idea of his story by listening to one of his wives' story (Anne Wilde).

I have read quite a few of his books. I really like them. He does good research, the books are short and sweet, however I don't like some of his conclusions. For example, he believes the LDS Church is in a state of apostasy (surely true of quite a few members, but he's referring to the prophets as well). We apostatized by giving up plural marriage, denying AG teachings, giving priesthood to blacks, etc. However, I still recommend his books to a seasoned member. Not for every new convert. :)

Update: Here's a good backstory:
One of the most renown of all “independents,” Ogden Kraut was set apart as a “Seventy” by Joseph W. Musser in the mid-1940s, but afterwards served a mission for the Church.[1] Excommunicated in 1972 for “teaching and promoting the living of plural marriage in our day,”[2] he went on to champion the cause of polygamy by authoring more than sixty books defending its continued practice. Staying neutral regarding the specific teachings of the larger “groups,” most fundamentalists applauded Kraut’s writings even if they didn’t agree with all of his interpretation of fundamentalist traditions. Though an activist in many ways, he did not support violence or confrontation as a way to promote the practice of plural marriage. His diplomacy earned him the respect of most of the people he met, regardless of their stand on plural marriage.

In one of his more popular publications is 95 Theses, Kraut attempted to mimic Martin Luther who on 31 October 1517 nailed a list of “95 Theses” or problems he had identified with the Catholic Church, on the door of the castle church at Wittenberg, Germany. Some of the “95” topics included by Kraut are unimpressive such as “fear of enemies” and “healing instruments.” However, he also listed the dozen or so more common concerns consistently repeated in fundamentalist literature.[3]

Curiously in all of his writings, it appears that he never explained his beliefs regarding the “one” man mentioned in D&C 132. Reportedly he approached Louis Kelsch to perform some sealings in the early 1970s, but later was influenced by Alex Joseph and Robert C. Crossfield. In 1991, one of his plural wives was asked regarding the sealing authority used to solemnize his own marriages, she paused a moment and then responded, “I’ll have to ask him.”[4] On one occasion he complained: “It is a very perplexing problem today for individuals who want to enter into the law of Abraham, to find someone to perform the sealing, because of the restrictions established by the groups themselves and even some of the independent prophets. If the Lord should reveal to a man and a woman that they are to be joined in the law, and they approach someone they feel has that calling in one of the groups, they are usually told that they must first be baptized into their church group, attend meetings for a year, and pay their tithing to them. The people feel it is priestcraft because it looks like they are required to pay for that ordinance.”[5]

In defense of the distance he kept from the larger polygamist groups, Kraut wrote: “John Taylor authorized and set apart several men to perpetuate the principle of plural marriage and gave them the calling to perform such marriage, regardless of what the Church or the government might say or do... There is no mention of setting up a church, taking tithing, having weekly meetings, or setting up a colony somewhere. Their calling (or keys) was to (1) live plural marriage, (2) perform plural marriage sealings, and (3) set apart others with this same calling.”[6]

Shortly before his death in July of 2002, Kraut penned his opinion of the status of modern polygamy: “The fulness of the Gospel is still alive B seriously wounded, but it does survive. It has been splintered and the splinters have splinters B who disagree over who has the most ‘authority’ or the most ‘keys.’ But a few righteous Saints still defend the restored Gospel and its eternal Priesthood laws as given to Joseph Smith, scattered though they may be.”[7] He also added: “The Mormon Church believes Joseph Smith is a prophet and so do the Fundamentalists; so why are they at such odds with each other? The answer is simple: one believes everything the Prophet Joseph taught, and the other does not. And the gap grows wider.”[8]
Update 2:
Rand wrote:I found this at: http://www.morningliberty.com/2010/05/2 ... den-kraut/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That was a very interesting interview. Thanks for the link! (Kraut comes on at 23:40).

More interviews here. I am enjoying them.

Update 3: Here is an excerpt form Anne's interview, talking about Ogden (they were married in 1969):

Last edited by iamse7en on August 2nd, 2011, 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by HeirofNumenor »

In other words he is an apostate who didn't believe that God would have His prophets do something different. He did a lot of intellectual research and used his research to change his opinions, and pushed out the Holy Ghost.

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iamse7en
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by iamse7en »

Some more information from this 1998 article about Ogden Kraut (he died in 2002):

Ogden Kraut served a mission for the LDS church in 1948 after being ordained to the office of seventy for that mission by Joseph W. Musser, fundamentalist leader and publisher of Truth. Kraut continued as an active elder in the LDS church and as a fundamentalist seventy and publisher until his excommunication for apostasy in 1972.

Ogden Kraut was a fundamentalist for twenty-one years as an adult before he married a plural wife in 1969.

Ogden Kraut observes that the organized groups regard an increase in the number of wives as requirement or reward for each level of presiding office. Even though Kraut himself now has five wives, he waited two decades to marry polygamously, and says, "Personally, I don't just don't think that they ought to be running around looking for a bunch of wives. Some of the groups kind of have the idea that the more wives you have the more power, authority, whatever."

After the Singer-Swapp family bombed an LDS chapel and barricaded themselves at their family compound, Ogden Kraut's efforts at defusing the situation endeared him to the law enforcement agencies. When the resulting publicity of Kraut's polygamous status endangered his position as a civilian employee of the U.S. Army, the local FBI chief and the Utah attorney general intervened with the post commander to protect Kraut's position.

Ogden Kraut observed that there are "professors of religion that I'm acquainted with who believe all the doctrines of Fundamentalism, and yet they're teaching at BYU, seminaries, and institutes" of the LDS church. He added in another interview that these fundamentalist sympathizers include "high councilmen, bishops, and in some cases stake presidents."

---

Fascinating article. Especially interesting was the section on how Fundamentalists view the LDS Church, particularly when you consider how the LDS Church treats them.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by A Random Phrase »

The grade-school-age son of a friend of mine was playing around a dumpster at a church building and found a book called "Jesus Was Married" by Ogden Kraut. (This was over twenty years ago.) He brought it home to his mother and she let me read it. It was very interesting and brought up some good points. At the time, I had no idea if the author was alive or dead. The book looked pretty old to me.


Edit: forgot the word "son"
Last edited by A Random Phrase on April 14th, 2012, 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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iamse7en
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by iamse7en »

I first read "Jesus Was Married" on my mission, and I had no idea it was written by an ex'd fundamentalist. ;) It was a great book. I like a lot of his books. Good research. I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but I could say the same about lots of authors I love reading.

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sadie_Mormon
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by sadie_Mormon »

HeirofNumenor wrote:In other words he is an apostate who didn't believe that God would have His prophets do something different. He did a lot of intellectual research and used his research to change his opinions, and pushed out the Holy Ghost.

huh?

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by A Random Phrase »

iamse7en wrote:I first read "Jesus Was Married" on my mission, and I had no idea it was written by an ex'd fundamentalist. ;) It was a great book. I like a lot of his books. Good research. I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but I could say the same about lots of authors I love reading.
Same here (with the exception of reading it on my mission).

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iamse7en
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Re: Does anyone know Ogden Kraut..

Post by iamse7en »

Read this recently and thought it was excellent. Ogden has some great stuff.
Before we were born, we listened to two different programs presented for this earth. The devil's plan was not that he would let people kill, rob, rape, go to war and do evil. Absolutely not! Rather, he said, "I'm going to save everyone; I'm going to make them obey. I'm going to establish federal police, state police, city police, officers and agents. I'll issue thousands and thousands of laws, codes, statutes, rules and regulations for the people to obey. I will make people get licenses, permits, charters, and exemptions. They will need to be finger-printed, photographed, registered, and computerized. They will be identified in numerous ways including numbering.

And, we are going to protect them by offering many different ways to get welfare, food stamps, grants, loans, aid--even foreign aid. And we will institute a complete taxing system to tax everyone except those who are on our welfare programs.

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Joel
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Anne’s Marriage – Was Jesus a Polygamist?

Post by Joel »

I’m excited to talk to Anne Wilde about her own polygamist marriage to Ogden Kraut. She was the second wife of Ogden. We’ll also talk a little bit about Jesus. Was he a polygamist?


More of her interview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4juEh8 ... YB-1GCodKv

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Rose Garden
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by Rose Garden »

I know his son Kevin a bit.

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sandman45
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by sandman45 »

reese wrote: July 24th, 2011, 3:30 pm Does anybody know anything about a man named Ogden Kraut?
He wrote some amazing books. I have read a couple of them. They were very well written and researched with sources etc..

check it out here

http://ogdenkraut.com/

Prattaking
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by Prattaking »

i did have heard about this man but never actually knew anything about him. All I heard is that he's a writer if i'm not wrong, but not sure what he writes. thanks for all the information here, might be useful!

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skmo
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by skmo »

Although it's off topic, the title of this thread made me think of this song, and I found myself melancholy about when musicians made music, not just pelvic grinding.
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gardener4life
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by gardener4life »

Most comments here bring to light the fact that he is a teacher and followed the gospel etc, but fail to bring up he was excommunicated. When you are excommunicated there's a reason. No offense but I think some of the answers above are misleading about him. If you don't say it like how it is people will get confused and start looking at sources of teaching not approved by the Lord.

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inho
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by inho »

gardener4life wrote: November 29th, 2017, 4:39 pm Most comments here bring to light the fact that he is a teacher and followed the gospel etc, but fail to bring up he was excommunicated. When you are excommunicated there's a reason. No offense but I think some of the answers above are misleading about him. If you don't say it like how it is people will get confused and start looking at sources of teaching not approved by the Lord.
That is a good clarification,. As said in many of the responses above, he was a fundamentalist. However, his books are often more like collections of quotes than something written by himself. So if one is interested in the gift of tongues, three Nephites, or dreams or something else, one can check his books and read quote after quote about the topic. Usually it is pretty easy to skip the fundamentalist stuff in them. And not all of his books have any fundamentalist agenda at all. Many orthodox Mormons enjoy his books too.

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The Airbender
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by The Airbender »

gardener4life wrote: November 29th, 2017, 4:39 pm Most comments here bring to light the fact that he is a teacher and followed the gospel etc, but fail to bring up he was excommunicated. When you are excommunicated there's a reason. No offense but I think some of the answers above are misleading about him. If you don't say it like how it is people will get confused and start looking at sources of teaching not approved by the Lord.
What sources are not approved by the Lord?

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Alaris
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Re: Does anyone know..

Post by Alaris »

Be wary of those who sing the praises of Ogden Kraut as he is the one fundamentalists look towards to justify their continued polygamy. The basic premise is the church lost its way when they abandoned polygamy and thus God abandoned the church. Of course the only way to stay true to the Lord is to then force under age girls into marriage and chase off your young men.

Many fundamentalists go online to justify themselves, probably only to themselves ultimately, but will rarely be upfront about who they are.

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