We should refuse to participate in Church

[Seed Starter]

I stopped paying tithing after the plandemic along with masonic temple attendance. My attendance fell off a cliff when I learned of Q15 collaborated with globalists.

When I leave Utah, I will be resigning my membership.

Coward! Staying in is like continuing to wear a mask, it perpetuates the lie! Are you serving the members somehow by remaining, or do you fear ostracization?

I don't think it's appropriate to be calling someone a coward for staying. There are so many different reasons that someone might continue participating in one form or another. As @larsenb would say, that's too black & white to automatically assume someone is a coward for staying. There could be some who stay because they are cowards, but there is so much context you would need to make that judgment. I'd rather not judge someone's intent in that way.

I agree. Something else to consider is that some people may have what a pastor friend calls "divine appointments" they must keep before walking out the door for the last time. Some people know they will leave but aren't clear about the right time so they wait and listen. If God lets you know it's time to go and you stay then you are a coward. You might even be a coward with good reasons. I live on the Wasatch front and Covid definitely made it easier for me to break away. Many thought we just never went back for health reasons but I've spoken to many in my area so they know exactly why we never went back.

Some families and communities around here will certainly make you feel like an outsider for leaving but overall my experience has been ok. I'm still friendly with my neighbors but they know I've drawn a line in the sand about participating in church things. I'm officially not a member since last December. My parents didn't know we left until 9/9 when my Dad sent me RMN's birthday bash video trying to reactivate us. They were the ones I was most anxious about telling and now they know. They accepted it with love but I imagine some people might write their kids out of the will for this sort of thing. I know several former members who are waiting for their parents to die before leaving or being open about already having left the church. It takes some deep conditioning for people to act like this. It's very sad.

[creator]

Sorry. Coward is not meant in that other sense except to provoke the reaction to the extreme cost of leaving. Leaving publicly in a 2% member region is expensive; in the 50% membership bubble that is wasatch; I cannot imagine the social cost. ... Is ostracization as big a threat as many claim to have experienced?

Sorry that you experienced an extreme cost related to leaving the Church, that can't be an easy thing, but it's going to be very different for every individual.

I can tell you (based on experience from knowing several who left the Church, or were exed, inactive, or are seriously questioning the state of the Church, etc.) that in the "membership bubble that is wasatch" the social cost is not necessarily as extreme as you are assuming. It could be for some, but not for others. Some already have a very supportive like-minded social circle before they leave. Some have family and friends that react differently. Some have spouses and family members that are on the same page. Because there is such a large % of LDS in the area, there are also more members that are nuanced, pimo (physically in, mentally out), inactive, etc. So the ostracization factor varies for everyone.

All that to say, for some the cost of leaving may be high and for others it is extremely low.

[RosyPosy]

My reason is I do not wish my name to associated with a globalist organization. They have a seat with the UN leadership that makes the church a globalist organization.

[AgeOfAquarius]

My reason is I do not wish my name to associated with a globalist organization. They have a seat with the UN leadership that makes the church a globalist organization.

Well said.

[Seed Starter]

Sorry. Coward is not meant in that other sense except to provoke the reaction to the extreme cost of leaving. Leaving publicly in a 2% member region is expensive; in the 50% membership bubble that is wasatch; I cannot imagine the social cost.

Perhaps I cannot understand your statement. You'd leave if not for the Church's ubiquitousness where you live now? Is ostracization as big a threat as many claim to have experienced?
Is contributing to an organization that hasn't made the dire message of repentance their only charge worth your time, talent, attention and energy?

11:9 Say nothing but repentance unto this generation...

I’m not fully understanding the back and forths here, but my thought is that leaving accomplishes nothing. You disappear into your own bubble, influencing nothing.
Are you sure about this? The church used to get money from me but now they don't. They would have likely received a lot of money in the future from my many children. That's not going to happen anymore because I acted. Less money means less support for the leaders' vain ambitions to build their legacy. I'm not attending so that also impacts the ward budget. Another thing is people like me talk to other people about faith as often as I can. Guess who I won't be helping the church with their work? Me. You know the how people talk about the same 10 people doing things in a ward? I was fast approaching that level when I was active. Now they'll have to find someone else. Smart and capable people are leaving. You are right that some people just leave God behind but many don't. I was supported by a friend who left a year before I did. Him leaving helped me leave sooner. You can start to see the domino effect. I was influenced by him and I am influencing people. Sometimes even in positive ways

Say there 500,000 members like you who each, on their own, decide to withdraw from the church and go off on their own, maybe to attend some random Mormon offshoot, maybe some non-denominational church, maybe no church at all. The only thing I believe these members accomplished was INCREASE the share of liberal members and pacified TBMs. Every member like you that leaves, is another reason for the Leaders in Salt Lake City to cater to the Mormon with the pride flag in front of their house.
True. However if the leaders are being led instead of leading they aren't really inspired leaders and why would anyone follow leaders who are fraudulent? I attend a Christian church where the work of salvation is taken to the streets all the time and not just by 19 year old. I think the number one priority in this world is helping my fellow men and women find salvation through Christ instead of being obsessed with salvation. If God sees fit to give me something I'll take it but I'm not chasing it. Not saying you are either.

In my opinion, ironically, I think you not only accelerate the downfall or the church, but you make the church more liberal, and more likely to continue down its path.
The church corp is going to fall. Jesus still saves. If liberals are staying and conservatives are leaving that points to a massive issue with leadership. THEY/THEM are running this thing into the rocks. We can choose to stay in or awaken and leave so that we can get on with the business of bringing souls to Christ. The church as is has a putrid stench that won't be tolerated by conservative newcomers for long. One day members of the church who stay at all costs will look around and recognize that something is very wrong. Hopefully they will recognize that counting themselves among LDS is a liability, not a blessing.

I don’t necessarily blame those that leave, since these hypothetical 500,000 are not a group but are all individuals who know nothing about each other..
Many of us know about each other and fellowship with one another. We aren't self-isolating. Leaving is a huge jump for us and those who are still with God know what we need to do and we try to keep our divine appointments. Where two or three are gathered in my name...

but I still think had all 500,000 remained while explicitly telling leadership they don’t want to participate(stop short of saying church leaders are fallen), then you all will have made the biggest possible difference by now.

Chruch leaders are fallen and not saying so places many in great danger. Since nobody removed them from leadership I let myself out so I won't be counted among their followers. I mean no offense with my post but wanted to share my perspective as one who left. I've been in the church over half a century and I just barely finished the Gospels. I was told to take the Bible with a grain of salt and to focus on the most perfect book Big mistake! I was ashamed of myself skimming the big book all those years.

[Zathura]

Sorry. Coward is not meant in that other sense except to provoke the reaction to the extreme cost of leaving. Leaving publicly in a 2% member region is expensive; in the 50% membership bubble that is wasatch; I cannot imagine the social cost.

Perhaps I cannot understand your statement. You'd leave if not for the Church's ubiquitousness where you live now? Is ostracization as big a threat as many claim to have experienced?
Is contributing to an organization that hasn't made the dire message of repentance their only charge worth your time, talent, attention and energy?

11:9 Say nothing but repentance unto this generation...

I’m not fully understanding the back and forths here, but my thought is that leaving accomplishes nothing. You disappear into your own bubble, influencing nothing.
Are you sure about this? The church used to get money from me but now they don't. They would have likely received a lot of money in the future from my many children. That's not going to happen anymore because I acted. Less money means less support for the leaders' vain ambitions to build their legacy. I'm not attending so that also impacts the ward budget. Another thing is people like me talk to other people about faith as often as I can. Guess who I won't be helping the church with their work? Me. You know the how people talk about the same 10 people doing things in a ward? I was fast approaching that level when I was active. Now they'll have to find someone else. Smart and capable people are leaving. You are right that some people just leave God behind but many don't. I was supported by a friend who left a year before I did. Him leaving helped me leave sooner. You can start to see the domino effect. I was influenced by him and I am influencing people. Sometimes even in positive ways

Say there 500,000 members like you who each, on their own, decide to withdraw from the church and go off on their own, maybe to attend some random Mormon offshoot, maybe some non-denominational church, maybe no church at all. The only thing I believe these members accomplished was INCREASE the share of liberal members and pacified TBMs. Every member like you that leaves, is another reason for the Leaders in Salt Lake City to cater to the Mormon with the pride flag in front of their house.
True. However if the leaders are being led instead of leading they aren't really inspired leaders and why would anyone follow leaders who are fraudulent? I attend a Christian church where the work of salvation is taken to the streets all the time and not just by 19 year old. I think the number one priority in this world is helping my fellow men and women find salvation through Christ instead of being obsessed with salvation. If God sees fit to give me something I'll take it but I'm not chasing it. Not saying you are either.

In my opinion, ironically, I think you not only accelerate the downfall or the church, but you make the church more liberal, and more likely to continue down its path.
The church corp is going to fall. Jesus still saves. If liberals are staying and conservatives are leaving that points to a massive issue with leadership. THEY/THEM are running this thing into the rocks. We can choose to stay in or awaken and leave so that we can get on with the business of bringing souls to Christ. The church as is has a putrid stench that won't be tolerated by conservative newcomers for long. One day members of the church who stay at all costs will look around and recognize that something is very wrong. Hopefully they will recognize that counting themselves among LDS is a liability, not a blessing.

I don’t necessarily blame those that leave, since these hypothetical 500,000 are not a group but are all individuals who know nothing about each other..
Many of us know about each other and fellowship with one another. We aren't self-isolating. Leaving is a huge jump for us and those who are still with God know what we need to do and we try to keep our divine appointments. Where two or three are gathered in my name...

but I still think had all 500,000 remained while explicitly telling leadership they don’t want to participate(stop short of saying church leaders are fallen), then you all will have made the biggest possible difference by now.

Chruch leaders are fallen and not saying so places many in great danger. Since nobody removed them from leadership I let myself out so I won't be counted among their followers. I mean no offense with my post but wanted to share my perspective as one who left. I've been in the church over half a century and I just barely finished the Gospels. I was told to take the Bible with a grain of salt and to focus on the most perfect book Big mistake! I was ashamed of myself skimming the big book all those years.

Makes sense, you make good points

[MikeMaillet]

Sorry. Coward is not meant in that other sense except to provoke the reaction to the extreme cost of leaving. Leaving publicly in a 2% member region is expensive; in the 50% membership bubble that is wasatch; I cannot imagine the social cost.

Perhaps I cannot understand your statement. You'd leave if not for the Church's ubiquitousness where you live now? Is ostracization as big a threat as many claim to have experienced?
Is contributing to an organization that hasn't made the dire message of repentance their only charge worth your time, talent, attention and energy?

11:9 Say nothing but repentance unto this generation...

I’m not fully understanding the back and forths here, but my thought is that leaving accomplishes nothing. You disappear into your own bubble, influencing nothing.

Say there 500,000 members like you who each, on their own, decide to withdraw from the church and go off on their own, maybe to attend some random Mormon offshoot, maybe some non-denominational church, maybe no church at all. The only thing I believe these members accomplished was INCREASE the share of liberal members and pacified TBMs. Every member like you that leaves, is another reason for the Leaders in Salt Lake City to cater to the Mormon with the pride flag in front of their house.

In my opinion, ironically, I think you not only accelerate the downfall or the church, but you make the church more liberal, and more likely to continue down its path.

I don’t necessarily blame those that leave, since these hypothetical 500,000 are not a group but are all individuals who know nothing about each other.. but I still think had all 500,000 remained while explicitly telling leadership they don’t want to participate(stop short of saying church leaders are fallen), then you all will have made the biggest possible difference by now.

I had thought of staying for exactly that reason, that maybe I might be able to influence someone or plant a few seeds. I knew that if I was true to this idea that I would very soon be hauled in front a court of looooove where I would have to sit in a stuffy room with Stake leaders in stuffy suits looking down at me. The problems would have started at the next GC where I would have had to vote in the negative when sustaining votes are taken. I could never publicly affirm that the Q15 are Prophets, Seers and Revelators without feeling disgusted with myself. My family name is important and I do not want my good name to be associated with an organization that builds malls and plays the stock market whilst pretending to be the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. Yeah right. I opted to write my Bishop a detailed letter and get the clerk to remove my name. My Bishop is a good man and I did not want him to have to deal with a noisy exit.

A good member of this forum once called me black & white and maybe this is one of those instances where he may be right about me. My leaving the church was not a difficult or nuanced one. Principles which I hold dear had been violated and it is what it is.

We each have our own path to follow but sooner or later we will need to follow the Iron Rod and I do not believe that the Iron Rod works out of the church office building.

Mike

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Sorry. Coward is not meant in that other sense except to provoke the reaction to the extreme cost of leaving. Leaving publicly in a 2% member region is expensive; in the 50% membership bubble that is wasatch; I cannot imagine the social cost.

Perhaps I cannot understand your statement. You'd leave if not for the Church's ubiquitousness where you live now? Is ostracization as big a threat as many claim to have experienced?
Is contributing to an organization that hasn't made the dire message of repentance their only charge worth your time, talent, attention and energy?

11:9 Say nothing but repentance unto this generation...

I’m not fully understanding the back and forths here, but my thought is that leaving accomplishes nothing. You disappear into your own bubble, influencing nothing.

Say there 500,000 members like you who each, on their own, decide to withdraw from the church and go off on their own, maybe to attend some random Mormon offshoot, maybe some non-denominational church, maybe no church at all. The only thing I believe these members accomplished was INCREASE the share of liberal members and pacified TBMs. Every member like you that leaves, is another reason for the Leaders in Salt Lake City to cater to the Mormon with the pride flag in front of their house.

In my opinion, ironically, I think you not only accelerate the downfall or the church, but you make the church more liberal, and more likely to continue down its path.

I don’t necessarily blame those that leave, since these hypothetical 500,000 are not a group but are all individuals who know nothing about each other.. but I still think had all 500,000 remained while explicitly telling leadership they don’t want to participate(stop short of saying church leaders are fallen), then you all will have made the biggest possible difference by now.

I had thought of staying for exactly that reason, that maybe I might be able to influence someone or plant a few seeds. I knew that if I was true to this idea that I would very soon be hauled in front a court of looooove where I would have to sit in a stuffy room with Stake leaders in stuffy suits looking down at me. The problems would have started at the next GC where I would have had to vote in the negative when sustaining votes are taken. I could never publicly affirm that the Q15 are Prophets, Seers and Revelators without feeling disgusted with myself. My family name is important and I do not want my good name to be associated with an organization that builds malls and plays the stock market whilst pretending to be the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. Yeah right. I opted to write my Bishop a detailed letter and get the clerk to remove my name. My Bishop is a good man and I did not want him to have to deal with a noisy exit.

A good member of this forum once called me black & white and maybe this is one of those instances where he may be right about me. My leaving the church was not a difficult or nuanced one. Principles which I hold dear had been violated and it is what it is.

We each have our own path to follow but sooner or later we will need to follow the Iron Rod and I do not believe that the Iron Rod works out of the church office building.

Mike

Iron rod is probably the wrong metaphor. That’s a Joseph smith , Oliver cowdery, Dartmouth college seminary term. Narrow is the way that leads to eternal life is likely a better one.

[Seed Starter]

I’m not fully understanding the back and forths here, but my thought is that leaving accomplishes nothing. You disappear into your own bubble, influencing nothing.
Are you sure about this? The church used to get money from me but now they don't. They would have likely received a lot of money in the future from my many children. That's not going to happen anymore because I acted. Less money means less support for the leaders' vain ambitions to build their legacy. I'm not attending so that also impacts the ward budget. Another thing is people like me talk to other people about faith as often as I can. Guess who I won't be helping the church with their work? Me. You know the how people talk about the same 10 people doing things in a ward? I was fast approaching that level when I was active. Now they'll have to find someone else. Smart and capable people are leaving. You are right that some people just leave God behind but many don't. I was supported by a friend who left a year before I did. Him leaving helped me leave sooner. You can start to see the domino effect. I was influenced by him and I am influencing people. Sometimes even in positive ways

Say there 500,000 members like you who each, on their own, decide to withdraw from the church and go off on their own, maybe to attend some random Mormon offshoot, maybe some non-denominational church, maybe no church at all. The only thing I believe these members accomplished was INCREASE the share of liberal members and pacified TBMs. Every member like you that leaves, is another reason for the Leaders in Salt Lake City to cater to the Mormon with the pride flag in front of their house.
True. However if the leaders are being led instead of leading they aren't really inspired leaders and why would anyone follow leaders who are fraudulent? I attend a Christian church where the work of salvation is taken to the streets all the time and not just by 19 year old. I think the number one priority in this world is helping my fellow men and women find salvation through Christ instead of being obsessed with salvation. If God sees fit to give me something I'll take it but I'm not chasing it. Not saying you are either.

In my opinion, ironically, I think you not only accelerate the downfall or the church, but you make the church more liberal, and more likely to continue down its path.
The church corp is going to fall. Jesus still saves. If liberals are staying and conservatives are leaving that points to a massive issue with leadership. THEY/THEM are running this thing into the rocks. We can choose to stay in or awaken and leave so that we can get on with the business of bringing souls to Christ. The church as is has a putrid stench that won't be tolerated by conservative newcomers for long. One day members of the church who stay at all costs will look around and recognize that something is very wrong. Hopefully they will recognize that counting themselves among LDS is a liability, not a blessing.

I don’t necessarily blame those that leave, since these hypothetical 500,000 are not a group but are all individuals who know nothing about each other..
Many of us know about each other and fellowship with one another. We aren't self-isolating. Leaving is a huge jump for us and those who are still with God know what we need to do and we try to keep our divine appointments. Where two or three are gathered in my name...

but I still think had all 500,000 remained while explicitly telling leadership they don’t want to participate(stop short of saying church leaders are fallen), then you all will have made the biggest possible difference by now.

Chruch leaders are fallen and not saying so places many in great danger. Since nobody removed them from leadership I let myself out so I won't be counted among their followers. I mean no offense with my post but wanted to share my perspective as one who left. I've been in the church over half a century and I just barely finished the Gospels. I was told to take the Bible with a grain of salt and to focus on the most perfect book Big mistake! I was ashamed of myself skimming the big book all those years.

Makes sense, you make good points

What a kind reply. You're a great example for me. Thank you for considering my point of view without trying to diminish it.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Sorry. Coward is not meant in that other sense except to provoke the reaction to the extreme cost of leaving. Leaving publicly in a 2% member region is expensive; in the 50% membership bubble that is wasatch; I cannot imagine the social cost.

Perhaps I cannot understand your statement. You'd leave if not for the Church's ubiquitousness where you live now? Is ostracization as big a threat as many claim to have experienced?
Is contributing to an organization that hasn't made the dire message of repentance their only charge worth your time, talent, attention and energy?

11:9 Say nothing but repentance unto this generation...

I’m not fully understanding the back and forths here, but my thought is that leaving accomplishes nothing. You disappear into your own bubble, influencing nothing.

Say there 500,000 members like you who each, on their own, decide to withdraw from the church and go off on their own, maybe to attend some random Mormon offshoot, maybe some non-denominational church, maybe no church at all. The only thing I believe these members accomplished was INCREASE the share of liberal members and pacified TBMs. Every member like you that leaves, is another reason for the Leaders in Salt Lake City to cater to the Mormon with the pride flag in front of their house.

In my opinion, ironically, I think you not only accelerate the downfall or the church, but you make the church more liberal, and more likely to continue down its path.

I don’t necessarily blame those that leave, since these hypothetical 500,000 are not a group but are all individuals who know nothing about each other.. but I still think had all 500,000 remained while explicitly telling leadership they don’t want to participate(stop short of saying church leaders are fallen), then you all will have made the biggest possible difference by now.

I had thought of staying for exactly that reason, that maybe I might be able to influence someone or plant a few seeds. I knew that if I was true to this idea that I would very soon be hauled in front a court of looooove where I would have to sit in a stuffy room with Stake leaders in stuffy suits looking down at me. The problems would have started at the next GC where I would have had to vote in the negative when sustaining votes are taken. I could never publicly affirm that the Q15 are Prophets, Seers and Revelators without feeling disgusted with myself. My family name is important and I do not want my good name to be associated with an organization that builds malls and plays the stock market whilst pretending to be the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. Yeah right. I opted to write my Bishop a detailed letter and get the clerk to remove my name. My Bishop is a good man and I did not want him to have to deal with a noisy exit.

A good member of this forum once called me black & white and maybe this is one of those instances where he may be right about me. My leaving the church was not a difficult or nuanced one. Principles which I hold dear had been violated and it is what it is.

We each have our own path to follow but sooner or later we will need to follow the Iron Rod and I do not believe that the Iron Rod works out of the church office building.

Mike

Iron rod is probably the wrong metaphor. That’s a Joseph smith , Oliver cowdery, Dartmouth college seminary term. Narrow is the way that leads to eternal life is likely a better one.

[larsenb]

1. The only people the church is interested in kicking out are those who criticize leaders, while men in open gay marriages like Charlie Bird receive church callings

2. There is no effort whatsoever in guiding or correcting active members who promote movements/organizations/individuals that contradict gospel principles. The number of members that fly the pride flag and post support for pride on social media increases every year. Every day that passes, they are emboldened (Brandon Sanderson is but one example). The end result will be full official full acceptance and likely the largest schism in the history of the church, completely destroying it in the process. It might not happen until Millenials are calling the shots, but it will happen, and it is today’s leaders that are making that future possible.

3. On the topic of tithing being 10% gross vs increase, most bishops these days take the “it’s between you and God” stance. The men running this church likely know everyone pays far too much tithing (For example, a family that makes $60,000 should maybe pay $500 instead of $6000), yet instead of clarifying once and for all, they let members choose to pay far more.

4. The men running this church are not real leaders. They do not take the difficult path. When it came to covid, they had to opportunity to stand up and be an example, and yet instead chose to go all in with the crowd.

5. The money they put towards charity is a tiny portion of the money they have, and is a smaller portion than what they ask of members.

6. Given their obsession with “follow the prophet”, I would have assumed they’d at least heed early Presidents of the Church when it comes to the Constitution, yet shockingly, they do not. They do nothing to fight for the constitution.

7. They are buddy buddy with countless global Gadianton organizations/initiatives.


There are plenty of other problems I have , teachings I disagree with, church history, etc. Those were never enough for me to choose not to participate, as I had no way of knowing if I’m really correct about those items.

The items I listed though, pushed me past my personal red line.
I hope that one day there will be a movement within the church where members, apart from partaking in the Sacrament, choose not to participate until the leaders are compelled to confront the reality of what they’ve created and where we are headed.

I for one have chosen not to participate beyond the occasional sacrament meeting. My wife participates a little more than that. Where I am really at is in a waiting period to see where the Lord leads me next. I'm reading the New Testament anticipating the likelihood that the Lord will lead me full Christian. My faith has always been about Jesus Christ for me, his death and resurrection and salvation. The more I read Paul's epistles, the more I realize how freeing the simple gospel really is, and I want it in its fulness and simplicity.

I think most of us recognize the advantages of having a living prophet in our day, but I am just not so sure we have one of those, at least not in the sense the LDS church understands it. Prophecy is a gift of the Spirit and could be given to any believer God so chooses.

My salvation isn't a product I can buy from church incorporated. It's God's gift to believers. And my participation in Mormon Mania didn't get me any more saved than I already was.

All the covenants that have to do with things that matter (obedience to God, chastity, etc.) are based on principles fully known to mankind and are available for free for a person to grow into in full faith. I don't have to pay for the building of temples to gain access to the opportunity to grow in faith and principle.

I understand and even agree with your stance to a certain degree, but it's a stance that seems to partake of simply falling back into the pre-restoration, 1,800 year old Christian mix that the restoration was designed to adjust, fix or add on to.

One of the fruits of the restoration, in my view was to universalize the experience of the High Priest in the ancient Jewish temple. Very much like universalizing Christianity (belief in a savior) to the world, and not just to the Jews.

And the covenants and experiences in the temple don't 'save' you, per se. What they do is give you a chance to reify experiences with the Spirit in real time and in the presence of others, with the covenants helping you to focus more behavior and commitment that are more likely to give you experiences with this Spirit.

It is experiences and connectivity with the Spirit that increase your faith and make you more able to redirect your behavior more to the path of righteousness . . . . which is how you are 'saved'. I.e., the restoration Temple is an add-on . . . if used right.

You may want to ask yourself the question, if the direction you are heading in is propelling you into the group constituting the gentiles who first accept then reject the 'fullness of the gospel', is that the group you want to be in?

[LostCreekAcres]

Yeah.. I don’t think getting kicked out or leaving is the right way.
... But maybe I am wrong for thinking there’s something we can do. Maybe we really do just need to Endure and let God do His thing

It seems the options are (1) leave, (2) stay and be quiet, (3) stay and speak out and eventually get kicked out. What you've basically proposed here is the third option.

Makes me wonder... The war in heaven and those who sat on the fence like this or did everyone choose a side? Am I that lukewarm individual that will be spewed from His mouth because of my staying and being quiet? Although I suppose you couldn't really say I've been staying - I go about once every two months to Sacrament meeting and don't have any responsibilities as such.

[creator]

Makes me wonder... The war in heaven and those who sat on the fence like this or did everyone choose a side? Am I that lukewarm individual that will be spewed from His mouth because of my staying and being quiet?

I would argue that whether or not you attend weekly church services has nothing to do with whether you are a hot, cold, or lukewarm follower of Christ.

[Being There]

Going to church is not what's going to save you.

As I've said many times over the years in this forum.

Anyone can go to church.

I stopped going to church
when I learned that going to church and really following Jesus and living His gospel,
are 2 different things.

Anyone can go to church -
but the very act of going to church won't save anyone.
Spirituality is not a once a week thing.

Going to church IS NOT what's going to save you my brothers and sisters.
There are thousands of Christians that don't go to church, but know, and love, and serve Jesus Christ;
and have a relationship with Him.

ANYONE can go to church.

YOU ARE NOT SAVED JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A MEMBER
AND YOU GO TO CHURCH.
Those who think they are righteous and are saved just by
attending their church meetings and even the temple,
church callings, etc. and think they've done their spiritual duty
for the week, will be cast out and burned with the tares.

But those who humble themselves daily, with a
Broken Heart and Contrite Spirit, on their knees repenting of their sins,
continually seeking the Lords face in prayer, asking the
Lord for his spirit to be with them always, to guide there lives,
to enlighten their minds and teach them all things of his gospel,
Taking upon you the name of Jesus Christ.
Servants of Christ - doing the things He did,
loving, teaching, helping and forgiving others.
This, and much more is the gospel of Jesus Christ,
and not just attending church.
Spiritually is not an outwardly thing you do once a week
by going to church.

Anyone can go to church

It's one thing to say "I Love You"
but it's entirely another to demonstrate that
love, showing continually, unconditionally,
in many ways your unwavering love for that person.

It's one thing going to church, but it's entirely another
thing to accept and to live The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Is going to church in itself spirituality ? no.
The very act of going to church won't save anyone.
Anyone can go to church.
I guarantee you that church attendance records
are not kept in heaven.
Just like I believe that just because you get married in the temple
doesn't mean you will be together forever, if you have a terrible
relationship with your spouse that has flustered and died away,
but because they got married in the temple, do you really
think they would be together or should be together ? I don't.

Too many members go to church like they go to the gym.
They go, they've done their (spiritual) duty
for the week and feel good about it.
Going to church doesn't make you closer to God. (unless)
it changes your life ! And it shows in your life by your fruits.
Again - going to church is like going to college.
You can go for years, and learn a lot but that won't get you
anywhere with your career unless you take what you've learned
and go out and apply it, in our lives and in the lives of others.
For many - The Gospel of Jesus Christ is like - a man was given an
expensive car to go on an extravagant vacation to a beautiful place,
but he didn't want to work to get the money for gas
and prepare himself doing the things he needed to do so he could go there.
Are you living how you need to and doing the things you need to do ?
Not just by going to church,
but by following Christ's example and by doing the things He did.

"Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be?
Verily I say unto you, even as I am."
3 Nephi 27:27

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

"so faith without works is dead"
"I will shew thee my faith by my works"
James 2

Jesus said
"But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant."

Mosiah Chapter 2:17
"And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom;
that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of
your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God."

Matthew 25:40

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,
ye have done it unto me.

He's there, waiting for you.
Christ is at the door, but we have to
open the door and fully accept him into our lives and do the things he did.
He will be in us, and work through us to do his work.

[Clerkinator]

Going to church is not what's going to save you.

As I've said many times over the years in this forum.

Anyone can go to church.

I stopped going to church
when I learned that going to church and really following Jesus and living His gospel,
are 2 different things.

Anyone can go to church -
but the very act of going to church won't save anyone.
Spirituality is not a once a week thing.

Going to church IS NOT what's going to save you my brothers and sisters.
There are thousands of Christians that don't go to church, but know, and love, and serve Jesus Christ;
and have a relationship with Him.

ANYONE can go to church.

YOU ARE NOT SAVED JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A MEMBER
AND YOU GO TO CHURCH.
Those who think they are righteous and are saved just by
attending their church meetings and even the temple,
church callings, etc. and think they've done their spiritual duty
for the week, will be cast out and burned with the tares.

But those who humble themselves daily, with a
Broken Heart and Contrite Spirit, on their knees repenting of their sins,
continually seeking the Lords face in prayer, asking the
Lord for his spirit to be with them always, to guide there lives,
to enlighten their minds and teach them all things of his gospel,
Taking upon you the name of Jesus Christ.
Servants of Christ - doing the things He did,
loving, teaching, helping and forgiving others.
This, and much more is the gospel of Jesus Christ,
and not just attending church.
Spiritually is not an outwardly thing you do once a week
by going to church.

Anyone can go to church

It's one thing to say "I Love You"
but it's entirely another to demonstrate that
love, showing continually, unconditionally,
in many ways your unwavering love for that person.

It's one thing going to church, but it's entirely another
thing to accept and to live The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Is going to church in itself spirituality ? no.
The very act of going to church won't save anyone.
Anyone can go to church.
I guarantee you that church attendance records
are not kept in heaven.
Just like I believe that just because you get married in the temple
doesn't mean you will be together forever, if you have a terrible
relationship with your spouse that has flustered and died away,
but because they got married in the temple, do you really
think they would be together or should be together ? I don't.

Too many members go to church like they go to the gym.
They go, they've done their (spiritual) duty
for the week and feel good about it.
Going to church doesn't make you closer to God. (unless)
it changes your life ! And it shows in your life by your fruits.
Again - going to church is like going to college.
You can go for years, and learn a lot but that won't get you
anywhere with your career unless you take what you've learned
and go out and apply it, in our lives and in the lives of others.
For many - The Gospel of Jesus Christ is like - a man was given an
expensive car to go on an extravagant vacation to a beautiful place,
but he didn't want to work to get the money for gas
and prepare himself doing the things he needed to do so he could go there.
Are you living how you need to and doing the things you need to do ?
Not just by going to church,
but by following Christ's example and by doing the things He did.

"Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be?
Verily I say unto you, even as I am."
3 Nephi 27:27

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

"so faith without works is dead"
"I will shew thee my faith by my works"
James 2

Jesus said
"But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant."

Mosiah Chapter 2:17
"And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom;
that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of
your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God."

Matthew 25:40

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,
ye have done it unto me.

He's there, waiting for you.
Christ is at the door, but we have to
open the door and fully accept him into our lives and do the things he did.
He will be in us, and work through us to do his work.

Agreed.

Also one does not need the approval of an imperfect person or persons to tell them that they are on GODs good list.

Or conversely not on said list.

[larsenb]

Going to church is not what's going to save you.

As I've said many times over the years in this forum.

Anyone can go to church.

I stopped going to church
when I learned that going to church and really following Jesus and living His gospel,
are 2 different things.

Anyone can go to church -
but the very act of going to church won't save anyone.
Spirituality is not a once a week thing.

Going to church IS NOT what's going to save you my brothers and sisters.
There are thousands of Christians that don't go to church, but know, and love, and serve Jesus Christ;
and have a relationship with Him.

ANYONE can go to church.

YOU ARE NOT SAVED JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A MEMBER
AND YOU GO TO CHURCH.
Those who think they are righteous and are saved just by
attending their church meetings and even the temple,
church callings, etc. and think they've done their spiritual duty
for the week, will be cast out and burned with the tares.

But those who humble themselves daily, with a
Broken Heart and Contrite Spirit, on their knees repenting of their sins,
continually seeking the Lords face in prayer, asking the
Lord for his spirit to be with them always, to guide there lives,
to enlighten their minds and teach them all things of his gospel,
Taking upon you the name of Jesus Christ.
Servants of Christ - doing the things He did,
loving, teaching, helping and forgiving others.
This, and much more is the gospel of Jesus Christ,
and not just attending church.
Spiritually is not an outwardly thing you do once a week
by going to church.

Anyone can go to church

It's one thing to say "I Love You"
but it's entirely another to demonstrate that
love, showing continually, unconditionally,
in many ways your unwavering love for that person.

It's one thing going to church, but it's entirely another
thing to accept and to live The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Is going to church in itself spirituality ? no.
The very act of going to church won't save anyone.
Anyone can go to church.
I guarantee you that church attendance records
are not kept in heaven.
Just like I believe that just because you get married in the temple
doesn't mean you will be together forever, if you have a terrible
relationship with your spouse that has flustered and died away,
but because they got married in the temple, do you really
think they would be together or should be together ? I don't.

Too many members go to church like they go to the gym.
They go, they've done their (spiritual) duty
for the week and feel good about it.
Going to church doesn't make you closer to God. (unless)
it changes your life ! And it shows in your life by your fruits.
Again - going to church is like going to college.
You can go for years, and learn a lot but that won't get you
anywhere with your career unless you take what you've learned
and go out and apply it, in our lives and in the lives of others.
For many - The Gospel of Jesus Christ is like - a man was given an
expensive car to go on an extravagant vacation to a beautiful place,
but he didn't want to work to get the money for gas
and prepare himself doing the things he needed to do so he could go there.
Are you living how you need to and doing the things you need to do ?
Not just by going to church,
but by following Christ's example and by doing the things He did.

"Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be?
Verily I say unto you, even as I am."
3 Nephi 27:27

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

"so faith without works is dead"
"I will shew thee my faith by my works"
James 2

Jesus said
"But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant."

Mosiah Chapter 2:17
"And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom;
that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of
your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God."

Matthew 25:40

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,
ye have done it unto me.

He's there, waiting for you.
Christ is at the door, but we have to
open the door and fully accept him into our lives and do the things he did.
He will be in us, and work through us to do his work.

You seem to be rather mixed up about the activity of "going to church". The activity is mainly focused on associating with other people of the same faith and benefiting from their faith and testimonies, and taking the sacrament. Many experiences in this context simply strengthen your own commitment and faith as well as your faith-driven activities involving service to your family and others.

All of this should be encompassed by your own scripture study and attempts to assimilate the lessons from those scriptures into your own life, and should lead to a greater acceptance of and association with your savior.

And of course, a large group doing these things has great capacity to influence others and to hopefully change the surrounding culture into something better.

Now, if you don't think the restoration, including the Book of Mormon heads in this direction, I guess your main option is to leave it.

[Being There]

Going to church is not what's going to save you.

As I've said many times over the years in this forum.

Anyone can go to church.

I stopped going to church
when I learned that going to church and really following Jesus and living His gospel,
are 2 different things.

Anyone can go to church -
but the very act of going to church won't save anyone.
Spirituality is not a once a week thing.

Going to church IS NOT what's going to save you my brothers and sisters.
There are thousands of Christians that don't go to church, but know, and love, and serve Jesus Christ;
and have a relationship with Him.

ANYONE can go to church.

YOU ARE NOT SAVED JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A MEMBER
AND YOU GO TO CHURCH.
Those who think they are righteous and are saved just by
attending their church meetings and even the temple,
church callings, etc. and think they've done their spiritual duty
for the week, will be cast out and burned with the tares.

But those who humble themselves daily, with a
Broken Heart and Contrite Spirit, on their knees repenting of their sins,
continually seeking the Lords face in prayer, asking the
Lord for his spirit to be with them always, to guide there lives,
to enlighten their minds and teach them all things of his gospel,
Taking upon you the name of Jesus Christ.
Servants of Christ - doing the things He did,
loving, teaching, helping and forgiving others.
This, and much more is the gospel of Jesus Christ,
and not just attending church.
Spiritually is not an outwardly thing you do once a week
by going to church.

Anyone can go to church

It's one thing to say "I Love You"
but it's entirely another to demonstrate that
love, showing continually, unconditionally,
in many ways your unwavering love for that person.

It's one thing going to church, but it's entirely another
thing to accept and to live The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Is going to church in itself spirituality ? no.
The very act of going to church won't save anyone.
Anyone can go to church.
I guarantee you that church attendance records
are not kept in heaven.
Just like I believe that just because you get married in the temple
doesn't mean you will be together forever, if you have a terrible
relationship with your spouse that has flustered and died away,
but because they got married in the temple, do you really
think they would be together or should be together ? I don't.

Too many members go to church like they go to the gym.
They go, they've done their (spiritual) duty
for the week and feel good about it.
Going to church doesn't make you closer to God. (unless)
it changes your life ! And it shows in your life by your fruits.
Again - going to church is like going to college.
You can go for years, and learn a lot but that won't get you
anywhere with your career unless you take what you've learned
and go out and apply it, in our lives and in the lives of others.
For many - The Gospel of Jesus Christ is like - a man was given an
expensive car to go on an extravagant vacation to a beautiful place,
but he didn't want to work to get the money for gas
and prepare himself doing the things he needed to do so he could go there.
Are you living how you need to and doing the things you need to do ?
Not just by going to church,
but by following Christ's example and by doing the things He did.

"Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be?
Verily I say unto you, even as I am."
3 Nephi 27:27

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

"so faith without works is dead"
"I will shew thee my faith by my works"
James 2

Jesus said
"But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant."

Mosiah Chapter 2:17
"And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom;
that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of
your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God."

Matthew 25:40

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,
ye have done it unto me.

He's there, waiting for you.
Christ is at the door, but we have to
open the door and fully accept him into our lives and do the things he did.
He will be in us, and work through us to do his work.

You seem to be rather mixed up about the activity of "going to church". The activity is mainly focused on associating with other people of the same faith and benefiting from their faith and testimonies, and taking the sacrament. Many experiences in this context simply strengthen your own commitment and faith as well as your faith-driven activities involving service to your family and others.

All of this should be encompassed by your own scripture study and attempts to assimilate the lessons from those scriptures into your own life, and should lead to a greater acceptance of and association with your savior.

And of course, a large group doing these things has great capacity to influence others and to hopefully change the surrounding culture into something better.

Now, if you don't think the restoration, including the Book of Mormon heads in this direction, I guess your main option is to leave it.

You seem to be rather mixed up about the activity of "going to church".

activity - of "going to church". Associating ?
And here I thought,
that for Mormons, church was supposed to be just a little more than a social function.*****

Again - Anyone can go to church -
and going to church and attending the temple - is not what's going to save you.
So I think you're then one mixed up.
NO ONE - needs to enter a Mormon church - or Mormon temple - to be saved by our Lord Jesus Christ. -
especially in a church that has become corrupt and fallen into apostasy.

1. Do I need to be a member of the church - to hear the voice of the Lord ?
2. Do I need the Book of Mormon - to hear the voice of the Lord ?
3. Do I need Joseph Smith - to hear the voice of the Lord ?
ANSWER: NO

Christ's AT-ONE-MENT - and our salvation, are an individual thing for each one of us.

If members can just crawl out of that dark hole - the Mormon Matrix for a moment -
Do you have any idea just how many Christians there are out there, that know the Lord,
and that love the Lord - with all their heart, and serve Him,
that will NEVER enter an LDS church or temple ?

so what about them ?
I guess you just think they're completely lost to Him !
The good shepherd knows His sheep.
And the sheep know who their shepherd is.

And as a Christian would say -
"do you really think that these scriptures and words of Jesus Christ are specifically for Mormons only ?
and these things Jesus said don't apply to me because I'm not a member of the Mormon church."

please read carefully His words. (from the Bible only)


John 11
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

Matthew 7
7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Matthew 17
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you,
If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mark 9
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Philippians 4:13

John 15
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit:
"for without me ye can do nothing."

John 14
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jeremiah 29
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.


“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:
if any man hear my voice, and open the door,
I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
Revelation 3:20


People come to Christ everyday, but not through any church.

Sorry but - JESUS ISN'T MORMON

I have listened to many Christians that do not believe in Joseph Smith nor the Book of Mormon,
and they receive more revelation from the Lord in 10 minutes than our so-called prophets have in a 100 years.


and speaking about the Book of Mormon -
try keeping the Lord's commandment - to "search diligently the words of Isaiah" -
"for great are the words of Isaiah"


3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."

3 "And all things that he spake have been - and shall be,
even according to the words which he spake."

4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE"

3 "And all things that he spake (HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE),
even according to the words which he spake." 3 Nephi 23.

So what the Lord is saying is first,
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah.,"
and that, the things that Isaiah is saying are still in the future
"AND SHALL BE even according to the words which he spake." !




Isaiah 24:5
5 "The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants:
they have transgressed the laws,
changed the ordinances, set at nought the ancient covenant."

Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith declared that;
“It is the L. D. Saints who have transgressed the laws, change the ordinance, broke the everlasting covenant.”
Joseph Fielding Smith (Deseret News, Church Section, Oct. 17, 1936)

explanation:
"Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” , thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void.
Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5-11; 52:14)."


10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets,
and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
13 Wherefore the Lord said,
Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
Isaiah 29



*****
Isaiah 1
14 Your monthly and regular meetings my soul detests. They have become a burden on me;
I am weary of putting up with them.


Isaiah 1

10 Hear the word of Jehovah, O leaders of Sodom; give heed to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah!

To call Jehovah’s people and their leaders by the names Sodom and Gomorrah is to compare their moral degeneracy to that of those cities’ ancient inhabitants.
As the leaders of a people generally reflect the people themselves, and as the political and ecclesiastical leaders of Jehovah’s people parallel each other in the Book of Isaiah, their spiritual condition holds little hope for the rising generation.
When things reach that point, Jehovah’s people are fortunate indeed if Jehovah offers them a last warning.
For those who accept it, there may yet be a chance of deliverance; otherwise, their destruction is assured.

Hear the word of Jehovah . . . give heed to the law of our God.
Knowing that Jehovah does nothing unless he reveals his secret to his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7), he sends a warning voice before destroying his people. In the Book of Isaiah, that warning voice is Jehovah’s servant, of whom Isaiah is a type.
Pointing them to Jehovah’s “law” and “word—to the terms of his covenant—the servant directs them to the one thing that has the power to reverse their circumstances.
Replacing current aberrant religious practices with keeping Jehovah’s law and word remains his people’s only hope.

11 For what purpose are your abundant sacrifices to me? says Jehovah.I have had my fill of offerings of rams and fat of fatted beasts;
the blood of bulls and sheep and he-goatsI do not want.

While the worship of Jehovah goes on as if nothing has changed, its rituals have become a substitute for spirituality.
As when Samuel rebukes Saul: “Does Jehovah delight in burnt sacrifices and offerings as much as in heeding the voice of Jehovah? Listen up! To obey is better than sacrifice and to comply than the fat of rams” (1 Samuel 15:22).
The purpose of temple worship—and the measure of one’s devotion to God—isn’t to multiply ordinances.
It is to keep the terms of his covenant that assures Jehovah’s people the same privileges enjoyed by ancestors who walked and talked with him.

Offerings of rams and fat of fatted beasts; the blood of bulls and sheep and he-goats. The literalness of the animals—reflecting their ancient use as temple sacrifices—may seem to preclude their relevance to the end-time. Isaiah, however, uses ritually clean beasts as a metaphor of Jehovah’s people (Isaiah 34:1-7; 40:11; 53:7; 60:3-9). In other words, just as sacrificial animals anciently served as proxies for Jehovah’s people who transgressed—thereby forestalling God’s justice—so their end-time relevance applies to the temple-goers themselves: their proxy rituals are no longer acceptable.

12 When you come to see me, who requires you to trample my courts so?

The question asked at the beginning of verse 11 is answered at the beginning of verse 12:
Jehovah’s people attend the temple to see Jehovah. If they aren’t there for that purpose, then all else doesn’t count for much.
That reveals an appalling paradox: instead of going to see Jehovah, his people resemble the dumb animals that were anciently brought for sacrifice, which were unaware of their reason for being there. Instead of making an offering of their whole souls to God—as symbolized by the burnt offerings and shedding of the animals’ blood—his people trudge about the temple’s courts defiling it.

13 Bring no more worthless offerings; they are as a loathsome incense to me. As for convening meetings at the New Month and on the Sabbath,wickedness with the solemn gathering I cannot approve.

Although Jehovah had commanded the offering of incense (Exodus 30:1-8; 40:26-27)—symbolic of the prayers of the righteous ascending to his presence (Psalm 141:2; Revelation 8:3-4)—the idea of a “loathsome incense” likens it to a nauseating odor.
Their sacrifices have become “worthless” because they aren’t backed up by personal righteousness (Isaiah 61:8). Even their religious meetings and assemblies Jehovah can’t approve because those who attend them are encumbered with offenses. Their wickedness—their unrepented sins and iniquities—turns their services into solemn mockery.

*****14 Your monthly and regular meetings my soul detests.
They have become a burden on me; I am weary of putting up with them.

As Jehovah attaches importance to Sabbath and monthly meetings elsewhere (Isaiah 56:2, 6; 58:13; 66:23), it isn’t that they of themselves are unacceptable.
It is that his people measure their righteousness before God in terms of their attendance at them,
not by their personal integrity.
Word links show what kinds of things burden and weary Jehovah, but also that by repenting of evil his people may become clean: “You have burdened me with your sins, wearied me with your iniquities. But it is I myself, and for my own sake, who blot out your offenses, remembering your sins no more” (Isaiah 43:24-25).

[Being There]

JESUS ISN'T MORMON
He restored His church, but what is His church ?

D&C 10
67
Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me,
the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me,
but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end,
him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

now where have I heard that before - "rock" "and upon this rock I will build my church"
Matthew 16
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood
hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

* "every time "church" is mentioned in the New Testament,
it refers only to the people who believe in Christ"

so the Lord is saying,
WHOEVER repents, and comes to Him IS His church, (ANYONE)
and He will build His church, with those that come to Him, the way how it was revealed to Peter that He was the Christ -
that is - through the rock of revelation - His spirit - the Holy Ghost.


to quote a Christian -

"The imagery and symbolism of marriage is applied to Christ and the body of believers known as the church.
The church is comprised of those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior
and have received eternal life. Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25–27). Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him (2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:24).
At the rapture, the church will be united with the Bridegroom and the official “wedding ceremony” will take place and, with it, the eternal union of Christ and His bride will be actualized (Revelation 19:7–9; 21:1-2)."

[larsenb]

Going to church is not what's going to save you.

As I've said many times over the years in this forum.

Anyone can go to church.

I stopped going to church
when I learned that going to church and really following Jesus and living His gospel,
are 2 different things.

Anyone can go to church -
but the very act of going to church won't save anyone.
Spirituality is not a once a week thing.

Going to church IS NOT what's going to save you my brothers and sisters.
There are thousands of Christians that don't go to church, but know, and love, and serve Jesus Christ;
and have a relationship with Him.

That was a LOT of output to show that you totally missed my points; one of which was: if you don't think the restoration, including the Book of Mormon was real and true and has any real efficacy beyond the New Testament, of course your main option is to leave it.

So, according to your apparent beliefs, you've done the right thing.

[TheChristian]

A certain Christian once prayed whom belonged to the "True Church" , here is the answer he recieved from the Lord Jesus, if any man can profit by it, so be it.......

"I give to whomsoever I please the blessings of My Heaven,
For they are Mine to give alone,
No man, nor set of men have a monopoly over My blessings,
They are given without measure and without price from My own hands to both those that seek them and even unto those whom do not,
And were ever there is Faith in My name I am to be found amongst those that possess it,
As it was when I walked amongst men, so shall it be in these last of days,
And behold these are they that are of my true fold they that love Me and love their fellow men and show unto them the very same mercy that I have shown unto them. Amen."

"Jesus of Nazerath is Lord"

[larsenb]

A certain Christian once prayed whom belonged to the "True Church" , here is the answer he recieved from the Lord Jesus, if any man can profit by it, so be it.......

"I give to whomsoever I please the blessings of My Heaven,
For they are Mine to give alone,
No man, nor set of men have a monopoly over My blessings,
They are given without measure and without price from My own hands to both those that seek them and even unto those whom do not,
And were ever there is Faith in My name I am to be found amongst those that possess it,
As it was when I walked amongst men, so shall it be in these last of days,
And behold these are they that are of my true fold they that love Me and love their fellow men and show unto them the very same mercy that I have shown unto them. Amen."

"Jesus of Nazerath is Lord"

This is certainly the iron-clad fall-back position of those who come to believe that Joseph Smith and the restoration, including rites of the temple, are fraudulent, and who still follow Christ,, regardless of who produced what you've quoted.

These ideas are valid and can be conjoined by almost any Christian well versed in the New Testament. They would be more compelling in support of the thesis that JS was a fraud if your Christian had prayed about whether or not the Mormon church was established by Christ or not.

[TheChristian]

.The Good Shepard shall gather in the scattered sheep of His fold were ever they may be apon the earth .... Not one shall be lost that calls out for the Shepard.
I believe in the Biblical Jesus and put my utter trust in His promises to "ALL" that call apon Him in these Latter days shall be Saved! ....

Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to Jews amongst other things, "This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:"

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved." Amen....

This is a promise to all men, that call apon His name, not just to any particular group or nation, but to everybody, a promise with a very, very simple message that gives Salvation, namely to call apon the name of "Jesus Christ of Nazerath"

[Being There]

Going to church is not what's going to save you.

As I've said many times over the years in this forum.

Anyone can go to church.

I stopped going to church
when I learned that going to church and really following Jesus and living His gospel,
are 2 different things.

Anyone can go to church -
but the very act of going to church won't save anyone.
Spirituality is not a once a week thing.

Going to church IS NOT what's going to save you my brothers and sisters.
There are thousands of Christians that don't go to church, but know, and love, and serve Jesus Christ;
and have a relationship with Him.

That was a LOT of output to show that you totally missed my points; one of which was: if you don't think the restoration, including the Book of Mormon was real and true and has any real efficacy beyond the New Testament, of course your main option is to leave it.

So, according to your apparent beliefs, you've done the right thing.

so sorry to disappoint you.
I've left the LDS Gentile church -
that has become corrupt and fallen into apostasy -
and has lost Christ's gospel that was restored to them - and doctrine - that they no longer teach or live by, but I haven't left at all the once restored gospel Christ's "church" - that He restored,
and as Jesus has already told us -
what His "church" really is - as I've already shown to you.
I think you need to read this part again - and what the Lord has said - His church really is *****


And I didn't miss your point at all.
You missed mine.
I truly believe in the restoration and in the Book of Mormon -
and THAT"S - the point !

Can a people who once had the gospel - lose it ?
It happened in the Book of Mormon - why do you think we have it -
this book of warning - warning to who - THE MORMONS - The LDS Gentiles -
the people who the book came to - warning us to not make the same mistakes as they did -
when they too had the gospel - but became full of pride and riches -
like us now - saying and thinking "we have the restored gospel, and it will never be taken away from us.


Elder H. Verlan Andersen, who would later serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy,
made the following observation:

HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED

"Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch,
“No people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants
for more than a few generations.
Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group
who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away,
thus bringing upon themselves His judgments.

This cycle of human folly, which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity, that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take. . . .
The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred.".

"Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent. (Eth. 2:11; 8:23)."

WE SHOULD OF LISTENED TO THEIR WARNINGS


So now The Times of the Gentiles will end,
and America will be swept clean.

We will lose the gospel back to them, and suffer the same consequences as they did -
with the destruction and downfall of America.


The first will be last and the last, first

"At the first, the Jews (in the Book of Mormon vernacular, meaning the house of Israel) were redeemed, then they rejected God and the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. (Acts 10.)
In these last days, Joseph Smith restored the gospel among the Gentiles;
and when they reject it, it will be taken back to the Jews, and they will be redeemed.
Hence, the first will be last and the last, first."
(1 Ne. 13:42; Jacob 5:63; Ether 13:12; D&C 88:59; Matt. 19:30; 20:8,16.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*****
JESUS ISN'T MORMON
He restored His church, but what is His church ?

D&C 10
67
Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me,
the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me,
but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end,
him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

now where have I heard that before - "rock" "and upon this rock I will build my church"
Matthew 16
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood
hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

* "every time "church" is mentioned in the New Testament,
it refers only to the people who believe in Christ"

so the Lord is saying,
WHOEVER repents, and comes to Him IS His church, (ANYONE)
and He will build His church, with those that come to Him, the way how it was revealed to Peter that He was the Christ -
that is - through the rock of revelation - His spirit - the Holy Ghost.


to quote a Christian -

"The imagery and symbolism of marriage is applied to Christ and the body of believers known as the church.
The church is comprised of those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior
and have received eternal life. Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25–27). Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him (2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:24).
At the rapture, the church will be united with the Bridegroom and the official “wedding ceremony” will take place and, with it, the eternal union of Christ and His bride will be actualized (Revelation 19:7–9; 21:1-2)."

[larsenb]

Going to church is not what's going to save you.

As I've said many times over the years in this forum.

Anyone can go to church.

I stopped going to church
when I learned that going to church and really following Jesus and living His gospel,
are 2 different things.

Anyone can go to church -
but the very act of going to church won't save anyone.
Spirituality is not a once a week thing.

Going to church IS NOT what's going to save you my brothers and sisters.
There are thousands of Christians that don't go to church, but know, and love, and serve Jesus Christ;
and have a relationship with Him.

That was a LOT of output to show that you totally missed my points; one of which was: if you don't think the restoration, including the Book of Mormon was real and true and has any real efficacy beyond the New Testament, of course your main option is to leave it.

So, according to your apparent beliefs, you've done the right thing.

so sorry to disappoint you.
I've left the LDS Gentile church -
that has become corrupt and fallen into apostasy -
and has lost Christ's gospel that was restored to them - and doctrine - that they no longer teach or live by, but I haven't left at all the once restored gospel Christ's "church" - that He restored,
and as Jesus has already told us -
what His "church" really is - as I've already shown to you.
I think you need to read this part again - and what the Lord has said - His church really is *****


And I didn't miss your point at all.
You missed mine.
I truly believe in the restoration and in the Book of Mormon -
and THAT"S - the point !

Can a people who once had the gospel - lose it ?
It happened in the Book of Mormon - why do you think we have it -
this book of warning - warning to who - THE MORMONS - The LDS Gentiles -
the people who the book came to - warning us to not make the same mistakes as they did -
when they too had the gospel - but became full of pride and riches -
like us now - saying and thinking "we have the restored gospel, and it will never be taken away from us.


Elder H. Verlan Andersen, who would later serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy,
made the following observation:

HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED

"Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch,
“No people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants
for more than a few generations.
Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group
who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away,
thus bringing upon themselves His judgments.

This cycle of human folly, which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity, that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take. . . .
The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred.".

"Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent. (Eth. 2:11; 8:23)."

WE SHOULD OF LISTENED TO THEIR WARNINGS


So now The Times of the Gentiles will end,
and America will be swept clean.

We will lose the gospel back to them, and suffer the same consequences as they did -
with the destruction and downfall of America.


The first will be last and the last, first

"At the first, the Jews (in the Book of Mormon vernacular, meaning the house of Israel) were redeemed, then they rejected God and the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. (Acts 10.)
In these last days, Joseph Smith restored the gospel among the Gentiles;
and when they reject it, it will be taken back to the Jews, and they will be redeemed.
Hence, the first will be last and the last, first."
(1 Ne. 13:42; Jacob 5:63; Ether 13:12; D&C 88:59; Matt. 19:30; 20:8,16.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*****
JESUS ISN'T MORMON
He restored His church, but what is His church ?

D&C 10
67
Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me,
the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me,
but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end,
him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

now where have I heard that before - "rock" "and upon this rock I will build my church"
Matthew 16
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood
hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

* "every time "church" is mentioned in the New Testament,
it refers only to the people who believe in Christ"

so the Lord is saying,
WHOEVER repents, and comes to Him IS His church, (ANYONE)
and He will build His church, with those that come to Him, the way how it was revealed to Peter that He was the Christ -
that is - through the rock of revelation - His spirit - the Holy Ghost.


to quote a Christian -

"The imagery and symbolism of marriage is applied to Christ and the body of believers known as the church.
The church is comprised of those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior
and have received eternal life. Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25–27). Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him (2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:24).
At the rapture, the church will be united with the Bridegroom and the official “wedding ceremony” will take place and, with it, the eternal union of Christ and His bride will be actualized (Revelation 19:7–9; 21:1-2)."

Well, from my point of view, you've essentially thrown the baby out with the bath. I don't see the 'church' as the leaders, per se. Most active members are focused on very real testimonies that are independent of the leaders. I'm not going to disregard my own intense experiences of testimony in a church context because a coterie of leaders are going off track

And in my strongly held view, the temple ceremonies/covenants (ceremonies changed or not) are a powerful and essential part of the 'restoration', or establishment of Christ's church. What is your opinion of the LDS temple complex?

[4Joshua8]

That was a LOT of output to show that you totally missed my points; one of which was: if you don't think the restoration, including the Book of Mormon was real and true and has any real efficacy beyond the New Testament, of course your main option is to leave it.

So, according to your apparent beliefs, you've done the right thing.

so sorry to disappoint you.
I've left the LDS Gentile church -
that has become corrupt and fallen into apostasy -
and has lost Christ's gospel that was restored to them - and doctrine - that they no longer teach or live by, but I haven't left at all the once restored gospel Christ's "church" - that He restored,
and as Jesus has already told us -
what His "church" really is - as I've already shown to you.
I think you need to read this part again - and what the Lord has said - His church really is *****


And I didn't miss your point at all.
You missed mine.
I truly believe in the restoration and in the Book of Mormon -
and THAT"S - the point !

Can a people who once had the gospel - lose it ?
It happened in the Book of Mormon - why do you think we have it -
this book of warning - warning to who - THE MORMONS - The LDS Gentiles -
the people who the book came to - warning us to not make the same mistakes as they did -
when they too had the gospel - but became full of pride and riches -
like us now - saying and thinking "we have the restored gospel, and it will never be taken away from us.


Elder H. Verlan Andersen, who would later serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy,
made the following observation:

HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED

"Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch,
“No people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants
for more than a few generations.
Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group
who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away,
thus bringing upon themselves His judgments.

This cycle of human folly, which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity, that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take. . . .
The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred.".

"Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent. (Eth. 2:11; 8:23)."

WE SHOULD OF LISTENED TO THEIR WARNINGS


So now The Times of the Gentiles will end,
and America will be swept clean.

We will lose the gospel back to them, and suffer the same consequences as they did -
with the destruction and downfall of America.


The first will be last and the last, first

"At the first, the Jews (in the Book of Mormon vernacular, meaning the house of Israel) were redeemed, then they rejected God and the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. (Acts 10.)
In these last days, Joseph Smith restored the gospel among the Gentiles;
and when they reject it, it will be taken back to the Jews, and they will be redeemed.
Hence, the first will be last and the last, first."
(1 Ne. 13:42; Jacob 5:63; Ether 13:12; D&C 88:59; Matt. 19:30; 20:8,16.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*****
JESUS ISN'T MORMON
He restored His church, but what is His church ?

D&C 10
67
Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me,
the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me,
but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end,
him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

now where have I heard that before - "rock" "and upon this rock I will build my church"
Matthew 16
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood
hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

* "every time "church" is mentioned in the New Testament,
it refers only to the people who believe in Christ"

so the Lord is saying,
WHOEVER repents, and comes to Him IS His church, (ANYONE)
and He will build His church, with those that come to Him, the way how it was revealed to Peter that He was the Christ -
that is - through the rock of revelation - His spirit - the Holy Ghost.


to quote a Christian -

"The imagery and symbolism of marriage is applied to Christ and the body of believers known as the church.
The church is comprised of those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior
and have received eternal life. Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25–27). Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him (2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:24).
At the rapture, the church will be united with the Bridegroom and the official “wedding ceremony” will take place and, with it, the eternal union of Christ and His bride will be actualized (Revelation 19:7–9; 21:1-2)."

Well, from my point of view, you've essentially thrown the baby out with the bath. I don't see the 'church' as the leaders, per se. Most active members are focused on very real testimonies that are independent of the leaders. I'm not going to disregard my own intense experiences of testimony in a church context because a coterie of leaders are going off track

And in my strongly held view, the temple ceremonies/covenants (ceremonies changed or not) are a powerful and essential part of the 'restoration', or establishment of Christ's church. What is your opinion of the LDS temple complex?

IMO the temple provides nothing that can’t be obtained outside of the temple. Sealing power? They don’t have it. Covenants? They don’t have a monopoly. Promises? The promises of exaltation are relevant and obtainable by every person who believes in Jesus Christ and humbles himself and shares in His suffering. Believers share in Christs inheritance. Paul wasn’t talking to endowed LDS when he said, in Romans 8, that together with Christ we are heirs of God’s glory. He was talking to ordinary believers. The laws and principles of the endowment are widely known by all and no one is limited just because they aren’t LDS temple patrons.