The questions Denver's movement can't and won't answer

[totsuzen]

I can't find anyone in Denver's movement who can or is even willing to try to answer the questions in that post - including Denver. Can you?

https://awakeandariseandgoforth.blogspo ... -have.html

-His wife has not received her Second Comforter.
-Denver isn't talking with the Lord face to face but for a few times. He has received some visions and he says that he has interacted more with the Savior more than Joseph Smith which he downplays with a comment that it's probably because he's a slow learner.

***LOOK CLOSELY *** For anyone who is paying attention to the psychological gymnastics Denver contorts you will see those comments for what they are. Boasting and then putting yourself down. It's a passive/aggressive message which is used to manipulate the mind. Look at some examples and see if they sound familiar:

"I'm nobody - don't follow me...I'm the Davidic servant - but its such a bad name."
"I've seen more/interacted with the Savior more than Joseph, but it's because I'm slow..."
"I won't start a church...but here's how you are to run women's councils and baptisms and tithing and fellowships..."
"I want everyone to receive their Second Comforter...(Someone receives Christ) No. That person conjures..."
"Women should conduct the entire Boise conference because they are so special...there is a place for B-itching and moaning...and it's filled with women..."

Here is the terminology for what he does:

An applicable neologism is humblebrag, a boast couched in self-deprecation. Henry Alford describes it as the false modesty of a plea intended to be met with both awe and sympathy. Humblebrag is attributed to Harris Wittels, a writer for the NBC sitcom Parks and Recreation who Tweets celebrity examples at that handle and has collected them into a book.

A less popular term from a different U.S. sitcom is backdoor brag, from a 2008 episode of 30 Rock. While not as buzzworthy a term, the example used in the episode matches one of yours:

It’s sneaking something wonderful about yourself into everyday conversation… Like when I tell people "it’s hard for me to watch American Idol, because I have perfect pitch.”

[jdt]

I can't find anyone in Denver's movement who can or is even willing to try to answer the questions in that post - including Denver. Can you?

https://awakeandariseandgoforth.blogspo ... -have.html

totsuzen, are your questions meant to be an inquiry or a declarative statement? In other words, are you sincerely interested in an answer or are you trying to "prove snufferism false" with your questions?
If it is the former, is there a particular area you want to start with first? I counted over 20 questions.
Peace.

[totsuzen]

Sincerely seeking the answer. I could only answer a few of them that are the obvious ones (do they allow comments - no, etc.).

I'll copy and paste the questions here for anyone willing to show their reasoning (not looking for an argument).

Do they allow comments on their blog or do they heavily sensor comments?
If they don’t allow comments - do they allow you to email them?
If you email them sincere questions, how do they answer?
Is there a chain of command or an inner circle with this person?
Have they shared their experiences so that you know, to a fair degree, what they have experienced with angels or the Lord?
If they don't share details about their experiences, do they use some of these as their reasons:
"Don’t cast pearls before swine"
"It's too sacred"
They don’t want to share their experience and "inadvertently become the object of adoration"
"In order to keep things focused on the Savior", they don’t reveal details.
Are you able to gauge how frequently they have met with the Savior or even the most frequent visits they have had with the Savior?
When you ask the author/speaker/or blogger to tell more about their experiences with Christ do they say things like:
"I do this reluctantly..."
"I don’t want to be idolized..."
"I don’t want people to desire an association with me..."
"The Lord told me not to share details because I would be set up as the object of worship and not Christ..."
"Read what I write...test those fruits.”

Do they teach repentance? Are you changed by their preaching of it?
Do they teach Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost? Do you understand it better?
Do they share as many details of their Second Comforter experience like those found in scripture (ex. Lehi, the Brother of Jared, Abraham, Moses, etc.)
Do they share conversation exchanges they had with the Savior (ex. Lehi, the Brother of Jared, Abraham, Moses, etc. etc. etc.)?
Do they share the visions the Savior showed them (as much as is allowed - Lehi, the Brother of Jared, Abraham, Moses, etc. etc. etc.)?
Do they share dates and/or how they were praying before obtaining a visitation (Joseph Smith, etc. etc. etc.)?
Do they encourage readers/hearers to also obtain their Second Comforter?
If they did encourage all to receive their Second Comforter at one time, do they still presently and frequently teach/encourage it?
If someone else has an experience with Christ - do they negatively label it with words like “conjuring” and thereby place themselves as the authority on what is acceptable and what is not?
Has reading their experiences or writings motivated and helped you to do the same?

[totsuzen]

I am sincerely interested in an answer from either side of the fence without arguments or demeaning conversation.

[Thomas]

Sincerely seeking the answer. I could only answer a few of them that are the obvious ones (do they allow comments - no, etc.).

I'll copy and paste the questions here for anyone willing to show their reasoning (not looking for an argument).
I will answer in red to the questions that apply to Denver but keep in mind, I do not represent him.


Do they allow comments on their blog or do they heavily sensor comments? No. He used to but it got out of hand. He had to spend too much time policing comments.
If they don’t allow comments - do they allow you to email them? Yes.
If you email them sincere questions, how do they answer? E- mail or blog post.
Is there a chain of command or an inner circle with this person? No.
Have they shared their experiences so that you know, to a fair degree, what they have experienced with angels or the Lord? See the book Come Let Us Adore Him, which contains a very detailed account of seeing the Savior.
If they don't share details about their experiences, do they use some of these as their reasons:
"Don’t cast pearls before swine"
"It's too sacred"
They don’t want to share their experience and "inadvertently become the object of adoration"
"In order to keep things focused on the Savior", they don’t reveal details.
Are you able to gauge how frequently they have met with the Savior or even the most frequent visits they have had with the Savior? Yes.
When you ask the author/speaker/or blogger to tell more about their experiences with Christ do they say things like:
"I do this reluctantly..."
"I don’t want to be idolized..."
"I don’t want people to desire an association with me..."
"The Lord told me not to share details because I would be set up as the object of worship and not Christ..."
"Read what I write...test those fruits.”

Do they teach repentance? Are you changed by their preaching of it? Yes.
Do they teach Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost? Do you understand it better? Yes.
Do they share as many details of their Second Comforter experience like those found in scripture (ex. Lehi, the Brother of Jared, Abraham, Moses, etc.) Yes.
Do they share conversation exchanges they had with the Savior (ex. Lehi, the Brother of Jared, Abraham, Moses, etc. etc. etc.)? Yes.
Do they share the visions the Savior showed them (as much as is allowed - Lehi, the Brother of Jared, Abraham, Moses, etc. etc. etc.)?Yes.
Do they share dates and/or how they were praying before obtaining a visitation (Joseph Smith, etc. etc. etc.)? Yes
Do they encourage readers/hearers to also obtain their Second Comforter? Yes. Wrote an instruction manual on how to do it.
If they did encourage all to receive their Second Comforter at one time, do they still presently and frequently teach/encourage it? Yes.
If someone else has an experience with Christ - do they negatively label it with words like “conjuring” and thereby place themselves as the authority on what is acceptable and what is not? Depends on who it is and the way they describe it. Denver has accepted that many have seen Christ but seems to call into question those who claim to be able to have Christ appear on command, like they are summoning a waiter or butler. Christ is the master. He comes on his terms and time table.
Has reading their experiences or writings motivated and helped you to do the same? Hasn't happened yet but I remain hopeful. Denver said it took him 30 years. Some people have complained that they have tried his teachings, without success, but they have not followed the recipe, which calls for changes to your life that may take 30 years to accomplish or may not happen at all if you not willing to sacrifice. You must be like Christ.

I don't think you tried very hard to find any answers. Denver Snuffer has millions of words in print, many of which answer those questions.

[totsuzen]

I guess I view it differently and we will likely need to agree to disagree. I don't like accusing statements such as I "didn't try very hard to find answers". That's untrue. His wife has not received her second comforter. For someone who is leading a movement and writing an instruction manual on how to have your second comforter, he seems to be having very infrequent visits, and none recently, as well as no success among his people.

[whatever]

I guess I view it differently and we will likely need to agree to disagree. I don't like accusing statements such as I "didn't try very hard to find answers". That's untrue. His wife has not received her second comforter. For someone who is leading a movement and writing an instruction manual on how to have your second comforter, he seems to be having very infrequent visits, and none recently, as well as no success among his people.

I find statements like these to be mind blowing. How exactly do you KNOW these things? This is rhetorical, by the way.

[Thomas]

I am pretty sure Denver said, his wife has seen the Lord. I know a few others that have as well. Some have given testimony of it.

As far as receiving the second Comforter, the recipe must be followed. Denver said it took him 30 years and you want to criticize because people are not doing it in a few short years. In the book, Ten Parables, it took 20 years for the man visiting the beggar to acquire the missing virtue required for angelic ministrations. I guess we live in an instant gratification society, where people want results without work or sacrifice. Receiving the Second Comforter is a life long endeavor.

I guess it is easier to conjure up Jesus though, without any work to be like him.

As far as not trying hard to find answers, all you had to do was ask. Your thread title makes it sounds as if you had some problematic questions that people were trying to avoid. The thread title made it sound like you asked all kinds of people. I know hundreds of people that could have answered all the questions and that is because they have actually studied what Denver says. I meant no disrespect. I was only trying to point out how easily those questions could be answered if someone really wanted to know.

[lemuel]

I guess I view it differently and we will likely need to agree to disagree. I don't like accusing statements such as I "didn't try very hard to find answers". That's untrue. His wife has not received her second comforter. For someone who is leading a movement and writing an instruction manual on how to have your second comforter, he seems to be having very infrequent visits, and none recently, as well as no success among his people.

I find statements like these to be mind blowing. How exactly do you KNOW these things? This is rhetorical, by the way.

Nephi, Jacob, Moses, Enoch, and Mormon all said their wives have had the TSC. A source tells me that Brigham Young had at least 13 of his wives receive TSC.

[Silver Pie]

Your thread title makes it sounds as if you had some problematic questions that people were trying to avoid. The thread title made it sound like you asked all kinds of people.

Yep. It sure did sound like the person had asked dozens, if not hundreds of people. Turns out that s/he either had not read enough (or anything) from Denver, or was offended because s/he thought Denver said things directed at him/her.

[jdt]

I guess I view it differently and we will likely need to agree to disagree. I don't like accusing statements such as I "didn't try very hard to find answers". That's untrue. His wife has not received her second comforter. For someone who is leading a movement and writing an instruction manual on how to have your second comforter, he seems to be having very infrequent visits, and none recently, as well as no success among his people.

I am going to ask you again totsuzen: what is your motivation? And as a bonus, what do you really want to state and what do you really want to inquire?
You say you sincerely want to know the answers, but give a provocative thread title that implies these questions are problematic to "Denver's movement". Thomas then gives his response to the questions you posted, then immediately without any asking for clarification state an impasse has been reached "I guess I view it differently and we will likely need to agree to disagree." And I might add the question that you are displeased with the answer to was one Thomas did not answer, because it was one you did not post here (only on the other website).
If you want to make declarations like "I don't believe a husband and wife would be unequally yoked when it comes to the Second Comforter" or "I think doubt people who claim the Second Comforter, who claim to have less than one visit from the Lord every 6 months (or whatever constitutes infrequent)" or "I think that people who claim the Second Comforter should open their blogs to comments" any of those are fine statements to make and we can discuss them. But frankly it appears you have been less than direct in your communications to date. Please if you have an honest question, ask it. But if you want to make a declarative statement, please simply state your understanding or opinion. Then we can have a real conversation.

[totsuzen]

My motivation is to ask for answers to those questions beyond a "yes"/"no" answer. I said 'agree to disagree' with Thomas because I took that as his final answer. He believes Denver is sharing those things, I am having trouble seeing it. He didn't show references where I could see how he reached that conclusion and so I could see that he (and all those who have responded thus far) are fulfilling what I titled this post - they either can't or won't show the answers to those questions.

I am less than direct in my communications because I am getting responders who don't have the answers and when they don't, they use demeaning statements like, "you didn't try very hard", "you haven't read anything from Denver or have been offended", etc. It is the default setting for people who are afraid or don't know something. Name call or distract from the fact that they don't have an answer.

I don't want a battle of put downs. I want anyone from this movement to show where to find the answer(s).

Let's just do three questions to help simplify it for now:

When was the last time Denver made reference to speaking face to face with the Lord?
Since his wife hasn't received her second comforter, how does this movement expect to do the same and bring about Zion?
What is the most detailed account Denver has given, besides Come Let Us Adore Him, with the Savior?

My declarative statements to the above questions:
-Denver hasn't, from all that I have read (and I study what he writes because I am looking for truth wherever I can find it), spoken face to face with the Lord in years. I have gone back through his writings from the last two years and there is no face to face reference anywhere. I could go further but two years is a long time, in my opinion.
-Because his wife hasn't received the second comforter, I don't understand why people are jumping on board to build Zion (eventually) when he isn't able to teach his wife how to obtain it. How can an entire movement with whom he is unequally yoked going to be able to understand the process any better than his co-equal?
-All I can find is the answer to the covenant. He references the Lord having given him the covenant but no details as to how, i.e. revelation, face to face, a voice in his mind, etc. If Come Let Us Adore Him is the most Denver has seen it was 1. years ago and 2. not befitting a Davidic Servant who is to be a prophet, seer, revelator, and translator. The whole package.

[jdt]

My motivation is to ask for answers to those questions beyond a "yes"/"no" answer. I said 'agree to disagree' with Thomas because I took that as his final answer. He believes Denver is sharing those things, I am having trouble seeing it. He didn't show references where I could see how he reached that conclusion and so I could see that he (and all those who have responded thus far) are fulfilling what I titled this post - they either can't or won't show the answers to those questions.

To be fair, the questions you asked were yes or no questions. Let's start with:

Do they teach repentance? Are you changed by their preaching of it?

This could be easily transformed into a more open ended question like: "For those in the movement, how have these teachings encouraged you to repent?"

I am less than direct in my communications because I am getting responders who don't have the answers and when they don't, they use demeaning statements like, "you didn't try very hard", "you haven't read anything from Denver or have been offended", etc. It is the default setting for people who are afraid or don't know something. Name call or distract from the fact that they don't have an answer.

Again there are some questions on your list like:

Do they allow comments on their blog or do they heavily sensor comments?

I am going to come out and say that at least with regards to Denver himself, you either know the answer to that question or you did not try very hard. Again this could have been very different (at least in this case, since I don't know about any prior conversations), had you simply instead asked, "Why do you think Denver does not allow comments on his blog? Shouldn't he be completely open?"

I don't want a battle of put downs. I want anyone from this movement to show where to find the answer(s).

Agreed. I say what I have said, not as a put down, but hopefully so you can get better insight into how I think. You may not agree with it, but at least you hopefully understand where I am coming from.

Let's just do three questions to help simplify it for now:

When was the last time Denver made reference to speaking face to face with the Lord?

I don't know for sure. He does not often bring up the subject. I know in one of his talks he said he spoke more often with the Lord than has been recorded with Joseph Smith. He attributed that to him being a slower learner than Joseph. I don't recall which talk that was.

Since his wife hasn't received her second comforter, how does this movement expect to do the same and bring about Zion?

I have never heard anything one way or the other about Stephanie having received the Second Comforter or not. So the question is based on a premise I am unsure of.

What is the most detailed account Denver has given, besides Come Let Us Adore Him, with the Savior?

Again Denver has seemed rather guarded about sharing details of these experiences. Frankly, I don't know what would rank as #2.

My declarative statements to the above questions:
-Denver hasn't, from all that I have read (and I study what he writes because I am looking for truth wherever I can find it), spoken face to face with the Lord in years. I have gone back through his writings from the last two years and there is no face to face reference anywhere. I could go further but two years is a long time, in my opinion.

This assumes he has mentioned every visitation. Which may or may not be true. As I read the question, I feel an implication in it (namely that Denver should not be disbelieved because he has not reported such a visitation). So I will ask you the questions I think are important to the implication (that may just be my interpretation).
Is it normal for a prophet to discuss all his/her encounters with the Lord?
How often should a prophet meet with the Lord?
What is your basis for answering the other 2 questions (i.e. scriptural examples, etc)?
(Now I asked these to you, but it is perfectly acceptable to reflect these and say, I am unsure, what do you think?)

-Because his wife hasn't received the second comforter, I don't understand why people are jumping on board to build Zion (eventually) when he isn't able to teach his wife how to obtain it. How can an entire movement with whom he is unequally yoked going to be able to understand the process any better than his co-equal?

As mentioned above I do not know of any statement either way about his wife having received the Second Comforter.
My questions:
What leads you to believe that his wife has not received the Second Comforter?
What connection do you see between receiving the Second Comforter and establishing Zion?
Why do you think that it is necessary for couples to receive the Second Comforter together?
What do you think it means to be equally yoked?
How do you think Zion will be built?
What is your basis for answering the other questions (i.e. scriptural examples, etc)?

-All I can find is the answer to the covenant. He references the Lord having given him the covenant but no details as to how, i.e. revelation, face to face, a voice in his mind, etc. If Come Let Us Adore Him is the most Denver has seen it was 1. years ago and 2. not befitting a Davidic Servant who is to be a prophet, seer, revelator, and translator. The whole package.

The answer and covenant is very recent. And yes is just presented as a revelation, without transmission details. But, the Testimony of John is within the last year as well and represents a major revelation/translation/seership.
My questions:
How do you think the Lord gives information to His prophet(s)?
Is the prophet under a constraint to share the exact method used for receiving information?
How often does a prophet need to receive major information from the Lord before he/she should no longer be considered a prophet?
What is your basis for answering the other questions (i.e. scriptural examples, etc)?

That's a lot of questions. Probably more than can be answered in one response. Pick the one(s) you feel most important and we can continue with a smaller scope.

[Arenera]

There are some better questions to ask.

Abinadi was sent to give a message to some people whose ancestors had been believers but had become wicked. This was a very direct approach.

If DS had spoken with Christ and Christ wanted him to deliver a message, why didn’t DS:
- Tell the leaders of the Church that they were apostates and were in wickedness?
- That DS was the Davidic Servant and would now lead people to Zion?
- That there was no more need of the Church, but the people would now be contentious communities?

The answer is DS is making this stuff up as he goes along.

[AI2.0]

I am pretty sure Denver said, his wife has seen the Lord. I know a few others that have as well. Some have given testimony of it.

As far as receiving the second Comforter, the recipe must be followed. Denver said it took him 30 years and you want to criticize because people are not doing it in a few short years. In the book, Ten Parables, it took 20 years for the man visiting the beggar to acquire the missing virtue required for angelic ministrations. I guess we live in an instant gratification society, where people want results without work or sacrifice. Receiving the Second Comforter is a life long endeavor.

I guess it is easier to conjure up Jesus though, without any work to be like him.

As far as not trying hard to find answers, all you had to do was ask. Your thread title makes it sounds as if you had some problematic questions that people were trying to avoid. The thread title made it sound like you asked all kinds of people. I know hundreds of people that could have answered all the questions and that is because they have actually studied what Denver says. I meant no disrespect. I was only trying to point out how easily those questions could be answered if someone really wanted to know.

You are the first person I've seen to suggest that Denver Snuffer's wife has 'seen the Lord'. Do you have a reference for making this claim?

So, if Denver's Books are supposed to help others 'see the Lord', I think they'd expect quicker results. Some people don't have 30 years left on earth, and per Denver, if they don't see him in THIS LIFE, then they are relegated to a lower Kingdom. I'd say that if they are going to believe Denver then they'll want a quicker route to receiving the second comforter. In the past, he hasn't promoted this as something a person should wait a 'lifetime' for, since their entrance into the Celestial Kingdom depends on it. This is a big drawback to Denver's bizarre insistence that the whole end and being of our lives and the only thing that matters(not even the Atonement!) to allow us to live with God is something that's a very private experience and mostly known by us when it happened to a prophet and he wrote about it.

But, this is the religion that some of you have chosen, so I guess you don't have a problem with it. I can't help but wonder how many of Snuffer's faithful claim to have seen the Lord....

[AI2.0]

I guess I view it differently and we will likely need to agree to disagree. I don't like accusing statements such as I "didn't try very hard to find answers". That's untrue. His wife has not received her second comforter. For someone who is leading a movement and writing an instruction manual on how to have your second comforter, he seems to be having very infrequent visits, and none recently, as well as no success among his people.

I find statements like these to be mind blowing. How exactly do you KNOW these things? This is rhetorical, by the way.

Nephi, Jacob, Moses, Enoch, and Mormon all said their wives have had the TSC. A source tells me that Brigham Young had at least 13 of his wives receive TSC.

Something else I've never heard of--Call for reference that Nephi, Jacob, Moses, Enoch and Mormon's wives all saw the Lord while in the flesh. Is this something that Denver is now claiming? Did he receive some more 'revelations' to add to the Snuffer scriptures to bolster his teachings? And where's the source for the Claim that 13 of Brigham Young's wives saw the Lord in the flesh??? They probably received their second anointing blessing, a lot did, but the SNufferites don't count that as receiving the second comforter.

You'll need to back these claims up with actual, verifiable sources.

[Thomas]

I guess I view it differently and we will likely need to agree to disagree. I don't like accusing statements such as I "didn't try very hard to find answers". That's untrue. His wife has not received her second comforter. For someone who is leading a movement and writing an instruction manual on how to have your second comforter, he seems to be having very infrequent visits, and none recently, as well as no success among his people.

I find statements like these to be mind blowing. How exactly do you KNOW these things? This is rhetorical, by the way.

Nephi, Jacob, Moses, Enoch, and Mormon all said their wives have had the TSC. A source tells me that Brigham Young had at least 13 of his wives receive TSC.

Something else I've never heard of--Call for reference that Nephi, Jacob, Moses, Enoch and Mormon's wives all saw the Lord while in the flesh. Is this something that Denver is now claiming? Did he receive some more 'revelations' to add to the Snuffer scriptures to bolster his teachings? And where's the source for the Claim that 13 of Brigham Young's wives saw the Lord in the flesh??? They probably received their second anointing blessing, a lot did, but the SNufferites don't count that as receiving the second comforter.

You'll need to back these claims up with actual, verifiable sources.

I cant speak for Lemuel but I think he was being sarcastic. Truth is we don't have any information on if the wives of any of these people saw Christ. Yet the OP seems to suggest that Denver is a Liar because the poster assumes that Denver's wife has not.

[Thomas]

My motivation is to ask for answers to those questions beyond a "yes"/"no" answer. I said 'agree to disagree' with Thomas because I took that as his final answer. He believes Denver is sharing those things, I am having trouble seeing it. He didn't show references where I could see how he reached that conclusion and so I could see that he (and all those who have responded thus far) are fulfilling what I titled this post - they either can't or won't show the answers to those questions.

I am less than direct in my communications because I am getting responders who don't have the answers and when they don't, they use demeaning statements like, "you didn't try very hard", "you haven't read anything from Denver or have been offended", etc. It is the default setting for people who are afraid or don't know something. Name call or distract from the fact that they don't have an answer.

I don't want a battle of put downs. I want anyone from this movement to show where to find the answer(s).

Let's just do three questions to help simplify it for now:

When was the last time Denver made reference to speaking face to face with the Lord?
Since his wife hasn't received her second comforter, how does this movement expect to do the same and bring about Zion?
What is the most detailed account Denver has given, besides Come Let Us Adore Him, with the Savior?

My declarative statements to the above questions:
-Denver hasn't, from all that I have read (and I study what he writes because I am looking for truth wherever I can find it), spoken face to face with the Lord in years. I have gone back through his writings from the last two years and there is no face to face reference anywhere. I could go further but two years is a long time, in my opinion.
-Because his wife hasn't received the second comforter, I don't understand why people are jumping on board to build Zion (eventually) when he isn't able to teach his wife how to obtain it. How can an entire movement with whom he is unequally yoked going to be able to understand the process any better than his co-equal?
-All I can find is the answer to the covenant. He references the Lord having given him the covenant but no details as to how, i.e. revelation, face to face, a voice in his mind, etc. If Come Let Us Adore Him is the most Denver has seen it was 1. years ago and 2. not befitting a Davidic Servant who is to be a prophet, seer, revelator, and translator. The whole package.

I would like to repeat what Whatever said:

I find statements like these to be mind blowing. How exactly do you KNOW these things?

[inho]

So, if Denver's Books are supposed to help others 'see the Lord', I think they'd expect quicker results. Some people don't have 30 years left on earth, and per Denver, if they don't see him in THIS LIFE, then they are relegated to a lower Kingdom. I'd say that if they are going to believe Denver then they'll want a quicker route to receiving the second comforter. In the past, he hasn't promoted this as something a person should wait a 'lifetime' for, since their entrance into the Celestial Kingdom depends on it. This is a big drawback to Denver's bizarre insistence that the whole end and being of our lives and the only thing that matters(not even the Atonement!) to allow us to live with God is something that's a very private experience and mostly known by us when it happened to a prophet and he wrote about it.

I would like to hear some Snufferite to address this. Is it necessary to receive Second Comforter in this life? I mean, doesn't Denver also teach some version of multiple mortal probation (although he doesn't use that term)? Is it necessary to see the Lord in this probation, or can one ascend to that rung of the ladder in a future probation? If it is not necessary, then why all the fuss about the topic? If it is necessary, should one expect the amount of people having that experience to be larger?

[BeNotDeceived]

It’s often what you don’t say, that makes the greater statement.

Was my reply in another thread, but seems revealed as an elusive general principle.

When a store clerk queries “may I help you find what you are looking for?”

A likely item is the one that’s no longer on the shelf. What is now on the shelf was less desirous than the items that sold out.

Politicians and the Press engage in acrobatic dodge the question, and some try to stipulate things, before the interview begins.

What words did John the Baptist say as he baptized Jesus?

[AI2.0]

I find statements like these to be mind blowing. How exactly do you KNOW these things? This is rhetorical, by the way.

Nephi, Jacob, Moses, Enoch, and Mormon all said their wives have had the TSC. A source tells me that Brigham Young had at least 13 of his wives receive TSC.

Something else I've never heard of--Call for reference that Nephi, Jacob, Moses, Enoch and Mormon's wives all saw the Lord while in the flesh. Is this something that Denver is now claiming? Did he receive some more 'revelations' to add to the Snuffer scriptures to bolster his teachings? And where's the source for the Claim that 13 of Brigham Young's wives saw the Lord in the flesh??? They probably received their second anointing blessing, a lot did, but the SNufferites don't count that as receiving the second comforter.

You'll need to back these claims up with actual, verifiable sources.

I cant speak for Lemuel but I think he was being sarcastic. Truth is we don't have any information on if the wives of any of these people saw Christ. Yet the OP seems to suggest that Denver is a Liar because the poster assumes that Denver's wife has not.

Is there some reason why you assume he's being sarcastic? There is no way to tell in the writing of his post and you were being sincere when you suggested that Snuffer's wife saw Christ.

I think the Op writer is suggesting (and rightly so) that if Snuffer is able to teach this to anyone, we'd expect his wife to be among the first, but I've never even heard this hinted at---until your post. It's a reasonable question.

[AI2.0]

So, if Denver's Books are supposed to help others 'see the Lord', I think they'd expect quicker results. Some people don't have 30 years left on earth, and per Denver, if they don't see him in THIS LIFE, then they are relegated to a lower Kingdom. I'd say that if they are going to believe Denver then they'll want a quicker route to receiving the second comforter. In the past, he hasn't promoted this as something a person should wait a 'lifetime' for, since their entrance into the Celestial Kingdom depends on it. This is a big drawback to Denver's bizarre insistence that the whole end and being of our lives and the only thing that matters(not even the Atonement!) to allow us to live with God is something that's a very private experience and mostly known by us when it happened to a prophet and he wrote about it.

I would like to hear some Snufferite to address this. Is it necessary to receive Second Comforter in this life? I mean, doesn't Denver also teach some version of multiple mortal probation (although he doesn't use that term)? Is it necessary to see the Lord in this probation, or can one ascend to that rung of the ladder in a future probation? If it is not necessary, then why all the fuss about the topic? If it is necessary, should one expect the amount of people having that experience to be larger?

When I first joined the forum, they were more honest about this and back then, the Remnant was not a separate religious movement, it was more like Snuffer was teaching the 'mysteries' to those who were seeking more knowledge and light-- I can't say for sure what Snuffer's views on reincarnation are, but many of his followers believe in it and maybe they think they will get another shot at the Celestial kingdom in another life.

Snuffer said that if they didn't see Christ in the flesh in this life, they would go to the Terestrial kingdom. (Passing the heavenly gift) He also condemned those who follow prophets (the arm of flesh) to the Telestial kingdom.(Grand Junction lecture)

But don't expect any of his adherents to admit this. Now that they have their own religion, they are more cagey about actually admitting to what Snuffer has preached in the past.

A very good question to ask Snuffer is about his views on the Atonement of Christ and the purpose of Repentance. They seem to be of little importance to his doctrines. Repentance in the Snuffer movement seems to be simple (as we saw in the case of John Doe)--get rebaptized. As far as I've read, in the Remnant, the Atonement isn't necessary because all that's necessary is seeing Christ in the flesh and a person doesn't not have to be righteous to experience this.

[Thomas]

Nephi, Jacob, Moses, Enoch, and Mormon all said their wives have had the TSC. A source tells me that Brigham Young had at least 13 of his wives receive TSC.

Something else I've never heard of--Call for reference that Nephi, Jacob, Moses, Enoch and Mormon's wives all saw the Lord while in the flesh. Is this something that Denver is now claiming? Did he receive some more 'revelations' to add to the Snuffer scriptures to bolster his teachings? And where's the source for the Claim that 13 of Brigham Young's wives saw the Lord in the flesh??? They probably received their second anointing blessing, a lot did, but the SNufferites don't count that as receiving the second comforter.

You'll need to back these claims up with actual, verifiable sources.

I cant speak for Lemuel but I think he was being sarcastic. Truth is we don't have any information on if the wives of any of these people saw Christ. Yet the OP seems to suggest that Denver is a Liar because the poster assumes that Denver's wife has not.

Is there some reason why you assume he's being sarcastic? There is no way to tell in the writing of his post and you were being sincere when you suggested that Snuffer's wife saw Christ.

I think the Op writer is suggesting (and rightly so) that if Snuffer is able to teach this to anyone, we'd expect his wife to be among the first, but I've never even heard this hinted at---until your post. It's a reasonable question.

What makes you think Snuffer's wife has not seen the Savior? What do you base this assumption on?

Some question to totsuzen. Show me where you have obtained this information.

[Thomas]

So, if Denver's Books are supposed to help others 'see the Lord', I think they'd expect quicker results. Some people don't have 30 years left on earth, and per Denver, if they don't see him in THIS LIFE, then they are relegated to a lower Kingdom. I'd say that if they are going to believe Denver then they'll want a quicker route to receiving the second comforter. In the past, he hasn't promoted this as something a person should wait a 'lifetime' for, since their entrance into the Celestial Kingdom depends on it. This is a big drawback to Denver's bizarre insistence that the whole end and being of our lives and the only thing that matters(not even the Atonement!) to allow us to live with God is something that's a very private experience and mostly known by us when it happened to a prophet and he wrote about it.

I would like to hear some Snufferite to address this. Is it necessary to receive Second Comforter in this life? I mean, doesn't Denver also teach some version of multiple mortal probation (although he doesn't use that term)? Is it necessary to see the Lord in this probation, or can one ascend to that rung of the ladder in a future probation? If it is not necessary, then why all the fuss about the topic? If it is necessary, should one expect the amount of people having that experience to be larger?

As Joseph Smith taught, once you have had your calling and calling and election made sure, you then have the privilege of having the Savior visit you from time to time. JS also said. this is a literally, physical visit. If your calling and election is not made sure, then it is unsure. You have no promise of anything.

We can also see that if you have not been brought into the presence of the Father and given a covenant from Him, you remain under the bondage of sin.

D&C 84
44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.

45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.

47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.

49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

This is describing the way the gospel is supposed to work. You obtain the spirit. Then you harken to or obey the spirit. That will eventually lead to having your calling and election made sure. Then you will be taught by Christ, in person, who will prepare you to meet the Father. The Father will give you a covenant for eternal life. Without this you have no promise of anything. You remain under the bondage of sin. Whether you get another chance at it, in another life, I really don't know. I suspect it I the case though.

The Book of Mormon says, Satan will deceive by telling us, all is well as he leads us carefully down to hell.

[AI2.0]

Something else I've never heard of--Call for reference that Nephi, Jacob, Moses, Enoch and Mormon's wives all saw the Lord while in the flesh. Is this something that Denver is now claiming? Did he receive some more 'revelations' to add to the Snuffer scriptures to bolster his teachings? And where's the source for the Claim that 13 of Brigham Young's wives saw the Lord in the flesh??? They probably received their second anointing blessing, a lot did, but the SNufferites don't count that as receiving the second comforter.

You'll need to back these claims up with actual, verifiable sources.

I cant speak for Lemuel but I think he was being sarcastic. Truth is we don't have any information on if the wives of any of these people saw Christ. Yet the OP s

eems to suggest that Denver is a Liar because the poster assumes that Denver's wife has not.

Is there some reason why you assume he's being sarcastic? There is no way to tell in the writing of his post and you were being sincere when you suggested that Snuffer's wife saw Christ.

I think the Op writer is suggesting (and rightly so) that if Snuffer is able to teach this to anyone, we'd expect his wife to be among the first, but I've never even heard this hinted at---until your post. It's a reasonable question.

What makes you think Snuffer's wife has not seen the Savior? What do you base this assumption on?

Some question to totsuzen. Show me where you have obtained this information.

uh...You can't prove a negative, Thomas. But you can provide evidence of a claim such as the one you made.

Therefor, On what do you base your assumption that she has? Please provide a reference that supports your assumption that she has, otherwise we should assume that she hasn't.