My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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Thomas wrote:
BrianM wrote:
Thomas wrote:The D&C contained a revelation that marriage was between one man and one wife
Actually that was not presented as a "revelation". It was written by Oliver Cowdery and he had the Saints vote on including it during a Conference when Joseph wasn't even present.
Thanks for the correction. I don't think there is any question that Joseph publicly backed that up. After the Nancy Rigdon letter which led to disciplinary action against John C Bennett, The leadership of the church gave a public statement that they knew of no other form of marriage but of that spelled in the D&C (one man, one woman). They also attributed spiritual wifery ( polygamy)to John C Bennett and attested to the fact that Joseph never taught it.

I have some pretty serious doubts about sect132 coming from Joseph. Are you familiar with the Peace Maker and Udney Jacob? There is also some writing style analysis that matches the writing style of 132 to Brigham Young.
Yes, the original section 101 was not a "Thus saith the Lord" oracle. Rather, it was a statement of policy. And, it didn't just say one man and one woman only. It gave an exception where it said "except in the cause of death". This is because it is an established law that when a man dies the man's brother is to receive his brother's widow to take care of her and the orphans as well as to raise up seed to his deceased brother. There is nothing that has ever reversed this provision. The widow's right of redemption is only able to be fulfilled by means of plural marriage. Also, polygamy is wrong and evil because a woman is not to be married to more than one man in a conflicting manner. That said, it is possible for a woman to be married to one man for time and another man for eternity. There is no conflict in this and so there is no polygamy in this. What D&C 132 talks about is polyandry, not polygamy.

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shadow
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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In polygamy, the LDS version, each marriage is between one man and one woman.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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LDS Dude wrote:Ok, at first I thought it was some derogatory reference to a particular anti-Mormon, snuff referring to snuff film, or a film where someone is purported to have committed suicide. Snuff also referring to breaking the word of wisdom and Jack Mormons that could be defined by that general term. Then I just thought that must be the screen name of someone who lives near Denver, CO on some other forum that had gained a following amongst a few.
I have seen quite a few people in many parts of the internet wondering if that was his real name. It's a common question.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton wrote:
A Random Phrase wrote:
jwharton wrote:But, if you ask too many questions or start to pry into the areas where they are shown as charlatans then they become very insecure and can't have you kicked out fast enough.
Kicked out of what? Denver is starting no formal organization.
I said this appears to be the direction he is heading in, that I have seen examples of before.
It will be interesting to see what actually happens. Will Denver go the way of Harmston or Jim Jones? Or a hundred (thousand?) other impostors and deceivers? Will he be another charlatan or liar? Only time will tell.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton wrote:What I see happening surrounding DS is everyone being encouraged to throw off their organizational ties and to more or less all go their own way and do their own thing.
I can understand people being enticed by this but it isn't going to bring to pass the unity and oneness that Zion requires.
God's ways are not man's ways. If the Lord really did appear to DS many times, really did tell him to give 10 lectures on certain subjects, really is behind this movement, then Zion will happen if enough people cooperate with the Lord by casting off their false beliefs, turning to Him with their whole souls, sacrificing everything - and are diligent, obedient, and patient.

I think we are arrogant when we assume that our paradigms match God's reality. We don't know God. We probably never did in this life. We know of Him. We know a trace, if we've had any real interactions with Him. But we don't know Him - and that is what He is inviting us to do. To know Him is to have eternal life, said Jesus. Know, not believe. Know, just like you know your best friend.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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LukeAir2008 wrote:... Brigham Young being sealed to women who were already married and classes this as adultery. Does he not realise that Joseph did the exact same thing ? Brigham Young did nothing and taught nothing other than that which he had seen Joseph do and heard Joseph say.
So say our false traditions. So say the lies we believe as we look at the history that was carefully manipulated by those who had a stake in convincing Joseph Smith III that his parents were liars, who had a stake in convincing the U.S. government that polygamy had been part of the Church since JS was alive (so the go'vt would stop persecuting them for practicing polygamy).

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A Random Phrase
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton wrote:Denver says he intends to figure out what the more ancient Adamic order was, right?
Does Eve have any part of that ancient order that established Zion?
Or, was Eve just told to go and pick daisies?
I expect Denver already knows what it was. It is us who are trying to figure it out. Eve most definitely was part of that. Her daughters will be part of that after it is established.
jwharton wrote:So far the only thing I see coming out of Denver Snuffer is tearing down much of our foundation and this kind of vague posturing that he is the servant to make it how it is supposed to be according to the ancient order of Adam. However, he offers no substantive further light and knowledge along those lines as to what this actually is.
If one is built upon a false foundation, that foundation needs to be torn down so that the true and firm foundation can be built. Otherwise, Zion will never come to be - and when the Second Coming happens, all the people here will be fried because none were able to bear the Lord's presence in the flesh let alone the Lord and those who will come with Him.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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Thomas wrote:I have some pretty serious doubts about sect132 coming from Joseph. Are you familiar with the Peace Maker and Udney Jacob? There is also some writing style analysis that matches the writing style of 132 to Brigham Young.
I believe that there are parts of Section 132 that came from God, but that BY had Wm Clayton alter it to suit BY's purposes. The pattern of embellishing scriptures had been laid when a committee took the revelations that had been in the Book of Commandments and put them into the first edition of the D&C. Joseph was concentrating on editing the Lectures on Faith at the time - and maybe even thought the learned men did a better job when they added to the revelations God gave to him.

jwharton
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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A Random Phrase wrote:
jwharton wrote:What I see happening surrounding DS is everyone being encouraged to throw off their organizational ties and to more or less all go their own way and do their own thing.
I can understand people being enticed by this but it isn't going to bring to pass the unity and oneness that Zion requires.
God's ways are not man's ways. If the Lord really did appear to DS many times, really did tell him to give 10 lectures on certain subjects, really is behind this movement, then Zion will happen if enough people cooperate with the Lord by casting off their false beliefs, turning to Him with their whole souls, sacrificing everything - and are diligent, obedient, and patient.

I think we are arrogant when we assume that our paradigms match God's reality. We don't know God. We probably never did in this life. We know of Him. We know a trace, if we've had any real interactions with Him. But we don't know Him - and that is what He is inviting us to do. To know Him is to have eternal life, said Jesus. Know, not believe. Know, just like you know your best friend.
That's still less than truly knowing someone.
For example, even my best friends don't really know me.
They know my voice and have seen my face, but I know that they do not really know me.
I have not shared some of the most defining and challenging aspects of my life with them.
The only person I have confidence that really knows me better than anyone else is my wife.
This is because we have a covenant together and a high degree of intimacy one with another.
And, most of all, because I share everything with her and treat her as if she is my own flesh.
None of this would be possible if there wasn't the foundation of a covenant between us.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton wrote:That's still less than truly knowing someone.
For example, even my best friends don't really know me.
They know my voice and have seen my face, but I know that they do not really know me.
I have not shared some of the most defining and challenging aspects of my life with them.
The only person I have confidence that really knows me better than anyone else is my wife.
This is because we have a covenant together and a high degree of intimacy one with another.
And, most of all, because I share everything with her and treat her as if she is my own flesh.
None of this would be possible if there wasn't the foundation of a covenant between us.
You bring up some really good points. Things I had not thought of.

Jesus, in scripture, called some people His friends. Perhaps that is all they were (referring to your comment, above).

But the scriptures liken Christ to the bridegroom and the Church to the bride. Perhaps there is something more, something more intimate, that we are supposed to be learning and understanding in our relationship with the Lord. If that is the case, I think we are even further away than I thought.

jwharton
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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A Random Phrase wrote:
jwharton wrote:That's still less than truly knowing someone.
For example, even my best friends don't really know me.
They know my voice and have seen my face, but I know that they do not really know me.
I have not shared some of the most defining and challenging aspects of my life with them.
The only person I have confidence that really knows me better than anyone else is my wife.
This is because we have a covenant together and a high degree of intimacy one with another.
And, most of all, because I share everything with her and treat her as if she is my own flesh.
None of this would be possible if there wasn't the foundation of a covenant between us.
You bring up some really good points. Things I had not thought of.

Jesus, in scripture, called some people His friends. Perhaps that is all they were (referring to your comment, above).

But the scriptures liken Christ to the bridegroom and the Church to the bride. Perhaps there is something more, something more intimate, that we are supposed to be learning and understanding in our relationship with the Lord. If that is the case, I think we are even further away than I thought.
Consider Balaam. He saw the face of God and knew His voice, but he still didn't really know God.

This is why people ought to be cautioned about people claiming to hear God's voice and to have seen His face.

I especially get uncomfortable when those who claim such start saying things to undermine our covenant with God, which brings us into the body of the Bride being prepared for Him. If we wish to partake of the marriage with the Bridegroom, we need to put our efforts into perfecting Her and making Her ready, which is the Church.

And, even though so much looks to be out of order in the organization and that such seems inconceivable, please see my posts in the thread called "I'm Committing Mormon Suicide in 2015" where I address this person who has given up on the church. Jump in at this post here:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=37612&p=601703#p601651" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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A Random Phrase
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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Knowing Christ really boils down to our own personal relationship with him. Another person cannot save us, no matter how true of a prophet he is, for example. Other people may have met Christ and think they know Him, but even if that is true, it cannot save us (and may not save them, if they haven't done all that the Lord requires of them, personally).

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Jonesy
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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You also know Him by obeying His commandments and becoming as He is.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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Jonesy1982 wrote:You also know Him by obeying His commandments and becoming as He is.
True.

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Jonesy
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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I just want to share this vision from Hollie Moody found here:

http://voiceofwarning.blogspot.com/2009 ... -plan.html

It describes the predicaments in which we currently find ourselves. There is much confusion to abate; but it is all about finding His voice.

What of the truth and words, hollow logic and reasoning? Let it be that we hear God speak the truth to us and not the devil.

I find that instead of criticizing and condemning the Church (however seemingly deserving), I find it more advantageous to just continue in faith in Jesus Christ and teach others about that principle.

I didn't expect it to be when I first saw it in the theaters, but my favorite all-time movie right now is "The Croods". It's about following the light in your life.

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Jonesy
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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Looking back, I think I was a little overzealous in my efforts. I don't want in any way to condemn Denver Snuffer nor those associated with him. I still disagree with his path, but I do feel remorse in how hard I came across. I'm sorry for thinking that I know where he is in life or who I think he may be. That doesn't matter. I knew that before. I was trying to express why that path was not mine anymore. I'm sorry I condemned him or those associated. I wish him and everyone else the best.

I'll share this, too from President Nelson:
Thus, when Jesus said “repent,” He asked us to change—to change our mind, knowledge, and spirit—even our breath. A prophet explained that such a change in one’s breath is to breathe with grateful acknowledgment of Him who grants each breath. King Benjamin said, “If ye should serve him who has created you … and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath … from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.”30

Yes, the Lord has commanded us to repent, to change our ways, to come unto Him, and be more like Him.31 This requires a total change. Alma so taught his son: “Learn wisdom in thy youth,” he said. “Learn in thy youth to keep the commandments of God. … Let all thy thoughts be directed unto the Lord; yea, let the affections of thy heart be placed upon the Lord forever.”32

To repent fully is to convert completely to the Lord Jesus Christ and His holy work. Alma taught that concept when he posed these questions: “I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?”33 That change comes when we are “born again,” converted and focused upon our journey to the kingdom of God.

jwharton
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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I know this is old, but I should have responded to it.
A Random Phrase wrote:
jwharton wrote:Denver says he intends to figure out what the more ancient Adamic order was, right?
Does Eve have any part of that ancient order that established Zion?
Or, was Eve just told to go and pick daisies?
I expect Denver already knows what it was.
Your expectation here is an assumption.
I assure you Denver doesn't already know.
A Random Phrase wrote:It is us who are trying to figure it out.
Many are ignorant of these things and Denver is taking advantage of this.
I don't say he is consciously doing this for a malevolent purpose.
This is what I would call the blind leading the blind.
A Random Phrase wrote:Eve most definitely was part of that. Her daughters will be part of that after it is established.
Eve surely was part of the ancient order. She is the Bride of the Bridegroom, the Church.
And, yes, she goes out into the wilderness and is put in great peril and her destruction is sought.
But, in due time, despite all odds and despite being heavily usurped and polluted, She is cleansed and redeemed.
However, this is the very organization that Denver Snuffer is attempting to disaffect people towards.
Rather than calling for Eve's members to facilitate organizational repentance he is calling for abandonment.
His belief is there isn't a foundation including Prophets, Apostles, Teachers, Evangelists, and so fourth.
He is appealing to people's innate desire to all want to go their own way and worship their own God.
In reality, he is calling for people to break the new and everlasting covenant established with the Bride.
A Random Phrase wrote:
jwharton wrote:So far the only thing I see coming out of Denver Snuffer is tearing down much of our foundation and this kind of vague posturing that he is the servant to make it how it is supposed to be according to the ancient order of Adam. However, he offers no substantive further light and knowledge along those lines as to what this actually is.
If one is built upon a false foundation, that foundation needs to be torn down so that the true and firm foundation can be built.
And that is my point, Denver has taken the position that the foundation was not laid properly and that it all needs to be ripped up.
My position is that the foundation was laid and that it is a firm foundation and that we were indeed given the ancient order of Adam already.
We don't need what we were given to be entirely replaced with something else, especially something so nebulous and ill-defined as Denver's movement.
If you take away our covenants and all of our covenant responsibilities, such as temple work for the dead, that are associated to the Church, what's left?
Denver Snuffer is attempting to revert Mormonism back to little more than what the Christians who fought against the early restoration believed.
A Random Phrase wrote:Otherwise, Zion will never come to be - and when the Second Coming happens, all the people here will be fried because none were able to bear the Lord's presence in the flesh let alone the Lord and those who will come with Him.
What he is doing, causing people to reject the Bride of the Bridegroom, is definitely making them ill-prepared to be a part of the Bride's Redemption.
He is causing people to reject Her in Her time of peril in the wilderness and puffing up their sense of self-righteousness and taking them into a blind alley.

jwharton
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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When I said in the previous post that Denver Snuffer is taking people into a blind alley, I realize that is a serious allegation. I'll back this up.

In Denver's 3rd of his 10 talks he said God wanted the ancient Adamic order established but that we got the church government outlined in section 107 instead. He claims what we were given there was in fact the result of a curse the people brought upon themselves for wanting a true church. He justified this by pointed out how section 107 would interject in things about the ancient Adamic order while it was outlining several priesthood offices in the church government. This is definitely him reading between some wide lines to draw a rather drastic conclusion. It could just as easily be claimed that those interjections were to indicate that it was in fact the ancient Adamic order being further defined right then and there.

So, let's say Denver's presumption is correct that the ancient Adamic order wasn't established in the days of Joseph Smith and that it yet awaits, What that means is there is yet to be a new place designated as the Garden of Eden of the "new world" and that the saints shall be called to gather specifically to that new place. And, that when they get there and endeavor to set things up and establish the Kingdom of God that they would transgress and be driven out into the lone and dreary wilderness somewhere and be put under the buffetings of the adversary for a season where the adversary would have power to usurp them in his bid to utterly destroy them. The "woman" would be in great travail and pain and she would eventually deliver the Son of Man who will be hated and rejected but who shall overcome death and eventually redeem His Mother and Father and enable the Kingdom of God to be victorious over the adversary.

Do people subscribing to what Denver Snuffer is advocating realize that he is attempting to set us nearly 200 years back in the narrative and do a repeat on all of the terrible suffering and trials that the early saints endured when they were placed in the Garden of Eden in Jackson County Missouri and were driven out into the lone and dreary wilderness of the Great Basis where we have been buffeted harshly by the government until the government finally usurped us and brought us to conform with what it required of us? And, that we have become polluted and in dire need of redemption?

Do the people following after Denver's claims realize the implications of all of the suffering they and their posterity will have to go through?
Why not rather acknowledge that we have already been through these troubled portions of the Adamic narrative already?
Why throw away the obvious fact that the ancient orders of Adam and Eve as the Priesthood and the Church were already established?
Why cast yourself out of Eve's body and no longer be a member of Her when She is approaching Her darkest hour and needs help the most?

All those who follow after Denver Snuffer's claims are being deceived by him and are throwing themselves out of their vehicle for exaltation.

They are doing it because they have become puffed up in their self-righteous judgment of Eve during Her time of peril.
So, rather than being a part of Eve's redemption and going on to their eventual exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, they are cutting themselves off.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton, I feel your bold words require a bold answer. I will attempt to provide that.

I have left the church and I believe that I can be considered by others as one who has been deceived by Denver. I don't know enough about the matter to provide any opinion on your commentary about the Adamic order. I intend to answer the charges of having been deceived and having committed self-righteous judgment. I intend to bear testimony, stating precisely things as they are, as best I am able to convey in human language.

I have sought the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart. I have fallen down in agony at times when I felt I had drifted from him. I know that I would prefer to die than be separated from him. There is nothing in this world more terrifying to me than the idea that I might be severed from my Lord Jesus Christ.

I am certain I have been deceived in some things. What those things are, I don't know. If I knew, I would immediately set things right and would no longer be deceived. I feel it would be utterly foolish to say with any degree of certainty that I am not deceived. All I can say is that I have done all that I can to discern the truth. I have spent hours upon hours in prayer, seeking the Lord's instruction. I can say I have done all I know to do to avoid being deceived.

Despite my desire to remain close to Christ and to avoid deception, I have been led away from the church. I do not believe that my departure is due to self-righteous judgment. I had no intention of ever leaving the church and yet I found myself outside of it as I pursued my journey to know Christ. I don't see myself every returning. There is nothing there for me anymore.

If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's true church, then there can be no danger to the church in my leaving it. The Lord is powerful over all. The only danger is to myself. The only danger is eternal damnation for myself.

Long ago I had to face this possibility. Long ago I had to face my weakness and inability to know with a surety what the truth is. I had to make a decision at one point of whether I was going to follow the Spirit that spoke to my soul no matter what it asked of me or not. I chose to follow the Spirit and this is where I have been led.

At some time all truth will be known. Both you and I will know exactly what the status of the LDS church is before the Lord. Both you and I will know exactly the status of Denver is before the Lord. Whatever happens at that point in time is of little concern to me because right here and now I can say that I have done all I can do to serve the Lord Jesus Christ. If I fail then it is not due to my lack of effort. What more can I give than my all?

If you judge me, you judge Jesus Christ. He is the Savior. If I have done what he asked, which is to love him with all my heart, might, and mind; then whatever I lack is his doing. If I am condemned for leaving the church, it is his condemnation.

I would urge you to do all you can to ensure that your position is correct. If not, you place yourself under condemnation for judging those who are seeking Jesus with all their hearts.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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Meili wrote:jwharton, I feel your bold words require a bold answer. I will attempt to provide that.
Yes, my words were bold and I definitely intended them to be.
Meili wrote:I have left the church and I believe that I can be considered by others as one who has been deceived by Denver. I don't know enough about the matter to provide any opinion on your commentary about the Adamic order.
It probably wouldn't take too much to find the paragraph or two where he goes over that. If you want, I will find the quotes for you.
Meili wrote:I intend to answer the charges of having been deceived and having committed self-righteous judgment. I intend to bear testimony, stating precisely things as they are, as best I am able to convey in human language.

I have sought the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart. I have fallen down in agony at times when I felt I had drifted from him. I know that I would prefer to die than be separated from him. There is nothing in this world more terrifying to me than the idea that I might be severed from my Lord Jesus Christ.

I am certain I have been deceived in some things. What those things are, I don't know. If I knew, I would immediately set things right and would no longer be deceived. I feel it would be utterly foolish to say with any degree of certainty that I am not deceived. All I can say is that I have done all that I can to discern the truth. I have spent hours upon hours in prayer, seeking the Lord's instruction. I can say I have done all I know to do to avoid being deceived.

Despite my desire to remain close to Christ and to avoid deception, I have been led away from the church. I do not believe that my departure is due to self-righteous judgment. I had no intention of ever leaving the church and yet I found myself outside of it as I pursued my journey to know Christ. I don't see myself every returning. There is nothing there for me anymore.

If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's true church, then there can be no danger to the church in my leaving it. The Lord is powerful over all. The only danger is to myself. The only danger is eternal damnation for myself.

Long ago I had to face this possibility. Long ago I had to face my weakness and inability to know with a surety what the truth is. I had to make a decision at one point of whether I was going to follow the Spirit that spoke to my soul no matter what it asked of me or not. I chose to follow the Spirit and this is where I have been led.

At some time all truth will be known. Both you and I will know exactly what the status of the LDS church is before the Lord. Both you and I will know exactly the status of Denver is before the Lord. Whatever happens at that point in time is of little concern to me because right here and now I can say that I have done all I can do to serve the Lord Jesus Christ. If I fail then it is not due to my lack of effort. What more can I give than my all?

If you judge me, you judge Jesus Christ. He is the Savior. If I have done what he asked, which is to love him with all my heart, might, and mind; then whatever I lack is his doing. If I am condemned for leaving the church, it is his condemnation.

I would urge you to do all you can to ensure that your position is correct. If not, you place yourself under condemnation for judging those who are seeking Jesus with all their hearts.
I am 100% clear on where you have been deceived.
I have marked in red those points that are dangerous.

I hope you will notice that I did not put in red the fact that you are out of the church.
I don't know what circumstances ultimately had you removed from it.
If you voluntarily resigned your membership then you alone are accountable.
If you were excommunicated for something that was an unjust judgment then it is on them.

But, of a certainty, no matter how polluted the church is with tares, you should maintain a respectful posture toward it.
I know people who cannot attend worship meetings because they get so ill from their sensitivity to the pollution that is there.
You saying that the church offers nothing to you is the kernel of self-righteousness I do not (yet) see you being absolved of.
The Lord will watch over good and pure souls who have done their best, as you say, but He does not take lightly one's posture toward His Bride.
He doesn't take kindly to those who covenanted with Him to "see that no iniquity enter the church" and then just walk away in contempt.
Those who take up a stone to condemn the Bride and treat Her as if She is of no worth of of no value to the Lord are not getting it.
What we are in fact on the cusp of is the time when all those who would abandon and condemn Her shall be made known to the Father.
This isn't to say we are to ignore Her transgressions and act as if She is a perfect little angel, but if we condemn Her we condemn ourselves.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton wrote:I know this is old, but I should have responded to it.
:)) So old that I had forgotten I said that stuff.
jwharton wrote:
A Random Phrase wrote:
jwharton wrote:Denver says he intends to figure out what the more ancient Adamic order was, right?
Does Eve have any part of that ancient order that established Zion?
Or, was Eve just told to go and pick daisies?
I expect Denver already knows what it was.
Your expectation here is an assumption.
I assure you Denver doesn't already know.
:)) I love this! Neither one of us knows Denver personally, unless you do, yet I say, "I expect Denver knows ..." and you say "I assure you Denver doesn't already know ..." Mine was an expectation based on what he has preached. Yours appears to be an absolute knowledge, but from where I do not know. I think the truth is that neither one of us knows and that we were both speculating based on our paradigms. (At this point in my life, I don't really care if Denver knew it or not. It isn't his soul I am to work on saving, it is mine.)

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A Random Phrase
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton wrote:
A Random Phrase wrote:It is us who are trying to figure it out.
Many are ignorant of these things and Denver is taking advantage of this.
I don't say he is consciously doing this for a malevolent purpose.
This is what I would call the blind leading the blind.
I don't recall the context of what I said and am too lazy to scroll up to find my actual posts, so I don't know what "it" is. I do know, though, that each of us humans are to figure out our own salvation - and do it between God and ourselves. No man or woman can find our truths for us and live it for us. And if we are connected to God, it cannot be the blind leading the blind, unless God is blind.
jwharton wrote:
A Random Phrase wrote:Eve most definitely was part of that. Her daughters will be part of that after it is established.
Eve surely was part of the ancient order. She is the Bride of the Bridegroom, the Church.
And, yes, she goes out into the wilderness and is put in great peril and her destruction is sought.
But, in due time, despite all odds and despite being heavily usurped and polluted, She is cleansed and redeemed.
Yep.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton wrote:However, this is the very organization that Denver Snuffer is attempting to disaffect people towards.
I disagree. He is simply preaching what the Lord wants him to say and, like all true messengers before him, he offends, is mocked, is cast out. If the organization was the Lord's it would have created a real Zion long ago.
jwharton wrote:Rather than calling for Eve's members to facilitate organizational repentance he is calling for abandonment.
He is calling for repentance. He is calling for returning to the Lord as the base of our religion. He is calling for the doctrine Joseph Smith preached, which is to seek the face of the Lord in this life so that when Jesus returns there will be a people who can withstand His coming without frying.
jwharton wrote:His belief is there isn't a foundation including Prophets, Apostles, Teachers, Evangelists, and so fourth.
His preaching says that God wants to go farther back in time than just to a New Testament Church (which is what Sidney Rigdon was pushing for and got, because God gives us what we are willing to have).

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton wrote:He is appealing to people's innate desire to all want to go their own way and worship their own God.
In reality, he is calling for people to break the new and everlasting covenant established with the Bride.
He is calling for people to break away from idolatry and men-worship and "look at how great we are!" and false traditions that lead us to hell. He is appealing to people's innate desire to connect with God without men who micromanage our lives and teach us to follow them (and that their revelations trump ours).
jwharton wrote:
A Random Phrase wrote:
jwharton wrote:So far the only thing I see coming out of Denver Snuffer is tearing down much of our foundation and this kind of vague posturing that he is the servant to make it how it is supposed to be according to the ancient order of Adam. However, he offers no substantive further light and knowledge along those lines as to what this actually is.
If one is built upon a false foundation, that foundation needs to be torn down so that the true and firm foundation can be built.
And that is my point, Denver has taken the position that the foundation was not laid properly and that it all needs to be ripped up.
My position is that the foundation was laid and that it is a firm foundation and that we were indeed given the ancient order of Adam already.
The Lord was trying to set the proper foundation through Joseph. Much of it is in the revelations, but there are also revelations giving the people what they wanted. The firm foundation is Christ, and coming to Him. Joseph told the people near the time he was going to die, "You never knew me. You never knew my heart." And it was these same people that carried their version of his "legacy" forward, altering more and more as the years and decades passed.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton wrote:We don't need what we were given to be entirely replaced with something else, especially something so nebulous and ill-defined as Denver's movement.
What if this thing is not Denver's movement at all? What if the Lord really is moving to try to save some few souls so that a Zion might eventually be built? A real one, not the faux one we have now with multi-billion dollar malls, banks and other Babylonic enterprises labeled with the word Zion as if that somehow made them legitimate in God's eyes.
jwharton wrote:If you take away our covenants and all of our covenant responsibilities, such as temple work for the dead, that are associated to the Church, what's left?
When we are sealed to our dead, we are sealed to the damned and our work for the dead does no good if we are not the link that links to heaven. And it has to be a real link to heaven, not an ordinance that assures us that it is not the real thing (we are told that the reality depends upon our faithfulness, yet so many of us think that the temple ordinances are the real thing, instead of practice for the real thing).

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