My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by jwharton »

Meili wrote:Despite my desire not to argue, I want to answer those things you addressed that I have not covered yet.

I sure hope I have cast no stone at the church or anyone with my words. I have been mindful of my covenants as well. I have fulfilled them all.

I expect my testimony is not complete if I do not boldly say that I do not believe the LDS Church is the bride of Christ. I believe the lines that delineate between the church of the lamb and the church of the devil are not set by any specific institution. I expect that when the time for the marriage comes, there will be those both in and out of the LDS church who are invited in. If I did not believe so, I would still be in the LDS church. The heart of the matter is, when I stopped believing I had to remain in the LDS church in order to be saved, there was nothing left keeping me there.
I don't consider exchanging point for point back and fourth to be a contentious argument.
It only becomes a contentious argument when one person withdraws their love and sincerity.
While you wish to bear witness and testimony of your personal feelings, of which I appreciate and have total sympathy towards, I too wish to bear witness and testimony to truths that are clear and explicit in the Word of God that have bearing upon this subject of vital importance. There are prophesies that when carefully considered teach very clear and simple truths. I agree that many people will attain glorious levels of salvation through Christ who are not members of any particular institution. There are indeed many mansions in the Father's House and it sounds to me like you have become comfortable accepting whatever mansion befits you. Because of this I do not wish to press you one way or another assuming that I know which mansion is best for you. I am also of a like-minded acceptance that I belong somewhere in the grand scheme of it all and that it may not be what others think I should strive for or desire.

My current frame of reference has me understanding that the "woman" spoken of in Revelation chapter 12 is in fact a distinct tangible being of flesh and bone, which means that it is a body of people united together by way of a consistent and uniform covenant administered by a priesthood organization that has the authority to represent God's side of the covenant. This means that to be a part of this body means that there is a specific organizational structure to it that you could call an institution but it in fact is supposed to be the Church of Christ. The way that God operates through the priesthood doesn't give allowance for this body to be a nebulous grouping of disparate people but rather a specific group of people who are striving for union and unity of faith, doctrine, belief, prosperity, etc. This is the context wherein which the Lord speaks of the only true and living church upon the face of the earth because it is the only covenant body that has been ordained and authorized through valid priesthood power. The creation narrative wasn't Adam and his harem but it was Adam and Eve. This is the Bride who is the "woman" who is Michael's bride prophesied of in Daniel 12 and Rev 12. All are invited to be a part of this true and living Bride and to be received into union with the Bridegroom. But, we also learn, there are some perils and challenges that this Bride suffers and endures before that wedding is complete and their union in Celestial Exaltation is fully consummated.

From what I hear you saying you desire with all of your heart to have the deepest most intimate connection with the Bridegroom that is possible and that you really wouldn't want to suffer any degree of separation from this full potential. I understand this to be exaltation in the highest degree of Celestial Glory, which is an entirely separate matter from the many varying degrees of salvation people can otherwise obtain. This is why I feel to urge you to consider doing a re-calibration of your perspective on the distinct tangible church body that represents the new Eve of the new Creation that is being brought about right now. This victory that we seek is to fully overcome the collective sin and darkness that prevails in our world right now through obtaining union with Christ at the deepest level. Before this happens we are to be proven true and faithful in all things, which means we will be subjected to many trials and tribulations and even perils. All of this will have far reaching consequences when you look at what Eve goes through before She is cleansed and redeemed and exalted in this manner. Being a member of this body in its cleansed, redeemed and exalted state is the manner in which we can attain to this highest degree of connection and intimacy with Christ. This is why I implore you to keep your eye upon the distinct and tangible body that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is the only body that fulfills all of the criteria in prophecy that points you to being ready to meet the Bridegroom when He comes. She started out being placed in the Garden of Eden, which we know as Jackson County Missouri, and that She transgresses and goes through a season of buffeting and tribulation in the wilderness, which we know as the Great Basin wasteland that became Utah. We know that She becomes severely polluted and usurped by the adversary during this time but that She does eventually get redeemed and is able to yet enter into exaltation in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom as the Mother of all Living for the new Creation she is the exalted Mother in Heaven of.

This is why I urge people to guard their feelings carefully in regard to this specific body of people. There isn't any other specific body of people who meet all of these detailed criteria. There are so many other aspects that align the Church with Eve that it is unequivocally and without question that the Church is Eve and that its destiny to be exalted as Eve is sure, no matter the pains, perils and pollutions endured along the way. It is easy to spurn Her while she is in the midst of peril as a usurped and polluted institution that is totally infested with tares, but it is so vitally important that you do not lose sight of the cleansing and redemption that will come. Maybe you needed to tap-out to step away from the front lines of this spiritual battle and perhaps you have a mission to accomplish to prepare the disenfranchised remnant that will be ready and waiting in the wings for when the cleansing is to take place and the tares who are all about the Luciferian usurpation are finally fully exposed and purged and the rightful saints can come back in and receive their blessings, the blessings you obviously are sincerely intent upon partaking of.

On a more personal note and a confession of my own is that having your eyes wide open to the pollution and corruption and the usurpation of Lucifer that has the Church in great peril and understanding the eternal consequences of these perils being reaped by people who, like you, claim to want to be closer to their Savior, but who through strong delusion are in fact among the Savior's fiercest enemies, it is a heavy weight on my soul to bear and I do just get downright lonely wishing for others to also have a vision to see these truths so that perhaps this weight can be shared and eventually lifted off of the truly penitent who sincerely want to do nothing more or less than build up the Father's Kingdom that our Savior gave his life to make us eligible to do so. We all have a part to play in this and we have a perilous journey to endure in order to bring it to its full fruition. I truly hope to see you there when all is said and done and Eve is cleansed and redeemed and exalted.

boo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1559
Location: Arizona

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by boo »

jwharton wrote:
Meili wrote:Despite my desire not to argue, I want to answer those things you addressed that I have not covered yet.

I sure hope I have cast no stone at the church or anyone with my words. I have been mindful of my covenants as well. I have fulfilled them all.

I expect my testimony is not complete if I do not boldly say that I do not believe the LDS Church is the bride of Christ. I believe the lines that delineate between the church of the lamb and the church of the devil are not set by any specific institution. I expect that when the time for the marriage comes, there will be those both in and out of the LDS church who are invited in. If I did not believe so, I would still be in the LDS church. The heart of the matter is, when I stopped believing I had to remain in the LDS church in order to be saved, there was nothing left keeping me there.
I don't consider exchanging point for point back and fourth to be a contentious argument.
It only becomes a contentious argument when one person withdraws their love and sincerity.
While you wish to bear witness and testimony of your personal feelings, of which I appreciate and have total sympathy towards, I too wish to bear witness and testimony to truths that are clear and explicit in the Word of God that have bearing upon this subject of vital importance. There are prophesies that when carefully considered teach very clear and simple truths. I agree that many people will attain glorious levels of salvation through Christ who are not members of any particular institution. There are indeed many mansions in the Father's House and it sounds to me like you have become comfortable accepting whatever mansion befits you. Because of this I do not wish to press you one way or another assuming that I know which mansion is best for you. I am also of a like-minded acceptance that I belong somewhere in the grand scheme of it all and that it may not be what others think I should strive for or desire.

My current frame of reference has me understanding that the "woman" spoken of in Revelation chapter 12 is in fact a distinct tangible being of flesh and bone, which means that it is a body of people united together by way of a consistent and uniform covenant administered by a priesthood organization that has the authority to represent God's side of the covenant. This means that to be a part of this body means that there is a specific organizational structure to it that you could call an institution but it in fact is supposed to be the Church of Christ. The way that God operates through the priesthood doesn't give allowance for this body to be a nebulous grouping of disparate people but rather a specific group of people who are striving for union and unity of faith, doctrine, belief, prosperity, etc. This is the context wherein which the Lord speaks of the only true and living church upon the face of the earth because it is the only covenant body that has been ordained and authorized through valid priesthood power. The creation narrative wasn't Adam and his harem but it was Adam and Eve. This is the Bride who is the "woman" who is Michael's bride prophesied of in Daniel 12 and Rev 12. All are invited to be a part of this true and living Bride and to be received into union with the Bridegroom. But, we also learn, there are some perils and challenges that this Bride suffers and endures before that wedding is complete and their union in Celestial Exaltation is fully consummated.

From what I hear you saying you desire with all of your heart to have the deepest most intimate connection with the Bridegroom that is possible and that you really wouldn't want to suffer any degree of separation from this full potential. I understand this to be exaltation in the highest degree of Celestial Glory, which is an entirely separate matter from the many varying degrees of salvation people can otherwise obtain. This is why I feel to urge you to consider doing a re-calibration of your perspective on the distinct tangible church body that represents the new Eve of the new Creation that is being brought about right now. This victory that we seek is to fully overcome the collective sin and darkness that prevails in our world right now through obtaining union with Christ at the deepest level. Before this happens we are to be proven true and faithful in all things, which means we will be subjected to many trials and tribulations and even perils. All of this will have far reaching consequences when you look at what Eve goes through before She is cleansed and redeemed and exalted in this manner. Being a member of this body in its cleansed, redeemed and exalted state is the manner in which we can attain to this highest degree of connection and intimacy with Christ. This is why I implore you to keep your eye upon the distinct and tangible body that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is the only body that fulfills all of the criteria in prophecy that points you to being ready to meet the Bridegroom when He comes. She started out being placed in the Garden of Eden, which we know as Jackson County Missouri, and that She transgresses and goes through a season of buffeting and tribulation in the wilderness, which we know as the Great Basin wasteland that became Utah. We know that She becomes severely polluted and usurped by the adversary during this time but that She does eventually get redeemed and is able to yet enter into exaltation in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom as the Mother of all Living for the new Creation she is the exalted Mother in Heaven of.

This is why I urge people to guard their feelings carefully in regard to this specific body of people. There isn't any other specific body of people who meet all of these detailed criteria. There are so many other aspects that align the Church with Eve that it is unequivocally and without question that the Church is Eve and that its destiny to be exalted as Eve is sure, no matter the pains, perils and pollutions endured along the way. It is easy to spurn Her while she is in the midst of peril as a usurped and polluted institution that is totally infested with tares, but it is so vitally important that you do not lose sight of the cleansing and redemption that will come. Maybe you needed to tap-out to step away from the front lines of this spiritual battle and perhaps you have a mission to accomplish to prepare the disenfranchised remnant that will be ready and waiting in the wings for when the cleansing is to take place and the tares who are all about the Luciferian usurpation are finally fully exposed and purged and the rightful saints can come back in and receive their blessings, the blessings you obviously are sincerely intent upon partaking of.

On a more personal note and a confession of my own is that having your eyes wide open to the pollution and corruption and the usurpation of Lucifer that has the Church in great peril and understanding the eternal consequences of these perils being reaped by people who, like you, claim to want to be closer to their Savior, but who through strong delusion are in fact among the Savior's fiercest enemies, it is a heavy weight on my soul to bear and I do just get downright lonely wishing for others to also have a vision to see these truths so that perhaps this weight can be shared and eventually lifted off of the truly penitent who sincerely want to do nothing more or less than build up the Father's Kingdom that our Savior gave his life to make us eligible to do so. We all have a part to play in this and we have a perilous journey to endure in order to bring it to its full fruition. I truly hope to see you there when all is said and done and Eve is cleansed and redeemed and exalted.
J as a minor point to your analysis you recognize I trust that there is no direct and tangible body bearing the name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints . There is legally no such entity . It is at very most a registered trademark. The entity that owns the trademark is the Corporation of the President of the CoJCoLDS... That entity as I suppose you know is a corporation sole the SOLE member of which is Thomas Monson.. Your stirring language suffers from a failure to speak accurately.How is one to follow a trademark? How is one to follow a corporation which does not permit my membership ? I can follow a person but a trademark really?

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Mark
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6929

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by Mark »

boo wrote:
jwharton wrote:
Meili wrote:Despite my desire not to argue, I want to answer those things you addressed that I have not covered yet.

I sure hope I have cast no stone at the church or anyone with my words. I have been mindful of my covenants as well. I have fulfilled them all.

I expect my testimony is not complete if I do not boldly say that I do not believe the LDS Church is the bride of Christ. I believe the lines that delineate between the church of the lamb and the church of the devil are not set by any specific institution. I expect that when the time for the marriage comes, there will be those both in and out of the LDS church who are invited in. If I did not believe so, I would still be in the LDS church. The heart of the matter is, when I stopped believing I had to remain in the LDS church in order to be saved, there was nothing left keeping me there.
I don't consider exchanging point for point back and fourth to be a contentious argument.
It only becomes a contentious argument when one person withdraws their love and sincerity.
While you wish to bear witness and testimony of your personal feelings, of which I appreciate and have total sympathy towards, I too wish to bear witness and testimony to truths that are clear and explicit in the Word of God that have bearing upon this subject of vital importance. There are prophesies that when carefully considered teach very clear and simple truths. I agree that many people will attain glorious levels of salvation through Christ who are not members of any particular institution. There are indeed many mansions in the Father's House and it sounds to me like you have become comfortable accepting whatever mansion befits you. Because of this I do not wish to press you one way or another assuming that I know which mansion is best for you. I am also of a like-minded acceptance that I belong somewhere in the grand scheme of it all and that it may not be what others think I should strive for or desire.

My current frame of reference has me understanding that the "woman" spoken of in Revelation chapter 12 is in fact a distinct tangible being of flesh and bone, which means that it is a body of people united together by way of a consistent and uniform covenant administered by a priesthood organization that has the authority to represent God's side of the covenant. This means that to be a part of this body means that there is a specific organizational structure to it that you could call an institution but it in fact is supposed to be the Church of Christ. The way that God operates through the priesthood doesn't give allowance for this body to be a nebulous grouping of disparate people but rather a specific group of people who are striving for union and unity of faith, doctrine, belief, prosperity, etc. This is the context wherein which the Lord speaks of the only true and living church upon the face of the earth because it is the only covenant body that has been ordained and authorized through valid priesthood power. The creation narrative wasn't Adam and his harem but it was Adam and Eve. This is the Bride who is the "woman" who is Michael's bride prophesied of in Daniel 12 and Rev 12. All are invited to be a part of this true and living Bride and to be received into union with the Bridegroom. But, we also learn, there are some perils and challenges that this Bride suffers and endures before that wedding is complete and their union in Celestial Exaltation is fully consummated.

From what I hear you saying you desire with all of your heart to have the deepest most intimate connection with the Bridegroom that is possible and that you really wouldn't want to suffer any degree of separation from this full potential. I understand this to be exaltation in the highest degree of Celestial Glory, which is an entirely separate matter from the many varying degrees of salvation people can otherwise obtain. This is why I feel to urge you to consider doing a re-calibration of your perspective on the distinct tangible church body that represents the new Eve of the new Creation that is being brought about right now. This victory that we seek is to fully overcome the collective sin and darkness that prevails in our world right now through obtaining union with Christ at the deepest level. Before this happens we are to be proven true and faithful in all things, which means we will be subjected to many trials and tribulations and even perils. All of this will have far reaching consequences when you look at what Eve goes through before She is cleansed and redeemed and exalted in this manner. Being a member of this body in its cleansed, redeemed and exalted state is the manner in which we can attain to this highest degree of connection and intimacy with Christ. This is why I implore you to keep your eye upon the distinct and tangible body that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is the only body that fulfills all of the criteria in prophecy that points you to being ready to meet the Bridegroom when He comes. She started out being placed in the Garden of Eden, which we know as Jackson County Missouri, and that She transgresses and goes through a season of buffeting and tribulation in the wilderness, which we know as the Great Basin wasteland that became Utah. We know that She becomes severely polluted and usurped by the adversary during this time but that She does eventually get redeemed and is able to yet enter into exaltation in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom as the Mother of all Living for the new Creation she is the exalted Mother in Heaven of.

This is why I urge people to guard their feelings carefully in regard to this specific body of people. There isn't any other specific body of people who meet all of these detailed criteria. There are so many other aspects that align the Church with Eve that it is unequivocally and without question that the Church is Eve and that its destiny to be exalted as Eve is sure, no matter the pains, perils and pollutions endured along the way. It is easy to spurn Her while she is in the midst of peril as a usurped and polluted institution that is totally infested with tares, but it is so vitally important that you do not lose sight of the cleansing and redemption that will come. Maybe you needed to tap-out to step away from the front lines of this spiritual battle and perhaps you have a mission to accomplish to prepare the disenfranchised remnant that will be ready and waiting in the wings for when the cleansing is to take place and the tares who are all about the Luciferian usurpation are finally fully exposed and purged and the rightful saints can come back in and receive their blessings, the blessings you obviously are sincerely intent upon partaking of.

On a more personal note and a confession of my own is that having your eyes wide open to the pollution and corruption and the usurpation of Lucifer that has the Church in great peril and understanding the eternal consequences of these perils being reaped by people who, like you, claim to want to be closer to their Savior, but who through strong delusion are in fact among the Savior's fiercest enemies, it is a heavy weight on my soul to bear and I do just get downright lonely wishing for others to also have a vision to see these truths so that perhaps this weight can be shared and eventually lifted off of the truly penitent who sincerely want to do nothing more or less than build up the Father's Kingdom that our Savior gave his life to make us eligible to do so. We all have a part to play in this and we have a perilous journey to endure in order to bring it to its full fruition. I truly hope to see you there when all is said and done and Eve is cleansed and redeemed and exalted.
J as a minor point to your analysis you recognize I trust that there is no direct and tangible body bearing the name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints . There is legally no such entity . It is at very most a registered trademark. The entity that owns the trademark is the Corporation of the President of the CoJCoLDS... That entity as I suppose you know is a corporation sole the SOLE member of which is Thomas Monson.. Your stirring language suffers from a failure to speak accurately.How is one to follow a trademark? How is one to follow a corporation which does not permit my membership ? I can follow a person but a trademark really?

How very sad to see that someone like Boo who has served in the church as a Bishop and a temple worker only see's the restored Church of Jesus Christ as a trademarked corporation really no different than any other trademarked corporation functioning out there in babylon. He has made sacred covenants to sacrifice all for that church and kingdom of God on earth bearing the Saviors name and yet he now thinks so little of that kingdom that he has reduced it's significance to being nothing more than just a trademarked corporation sole. It truly is a sifting period in the church. :(

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Rose Garden
Don't ask . . .
Posts: 7031
Contact:

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by Rose Garden »

Mark wrote:
boo wrote:
jwharton wrote:
Meili wrote:Despite my desire not to argue, I want to answer those things you addressed that I have not covered yet.

I sure hope I have cast no stone at the church or anyone with my words. I have been mindful of my covenants as well. I have fulfilled them all.

I expect my testimony is not complete if I do not boldly say that I do not believe the LDS Church is the bride of Christ. I believe the lines that delineate between the church of the lamb and the church of the devil are not set by any specific institution. I expect that when the time for the marriage comes, there will be those both in and out of the LDS church who are invited in. If I did not believe so, I would still be in the LDS church. The heart of the matter is, when I stopped believing I had to remain in the LDS church in order to be saved, there was nothing left keeping me there.
I don't consider exchanging point for point back and fourth to be a contentious argument.
It only becomes a contentious argument when one person withdraws their love and sincerity.
While you wish to bear witness and testimony of your personal feelings, of which I appreciate and have total sympathy towards, I too wish to bear witness and testimony to truths that are clear and explicit in the Word of God that have bearing upon this subject of vital importance. There are prophesies that when carefully considered teach very clear and simple truths. I agree that many people will attain glorious levels of salvation through Christ who are not members of any particular institution. There are indeed many mansions in the Father's House and it sounds to me like you have become comfortable accepting whatever mansion befits you. Because of this I do not wish to press you one way or another assuming that I know which mansion is best for you. I am also of a like-minded acceptance that I belong somewhere in the grand scheme of it all and that it may not be what others think I should strive for or desire.

My current frame of reference has me understanding that the "woman" spoken of in Revelation chapter 12 is in fact a distinct tangible being of flesh and bone, which means that it is a body of people united together by way of a consistent and uniform covenant administered by a priesthood organization that has the authority to represent God's side of the covenant. This means that to be a part of this body means that there is a specific organizational structure to it that you could call an institution but it in fact is supposed to be the Church of Christ. The way that God operates through the priesthood doesn't give allowance for this body to be a nebulous grouping of disparate people but rather a specific group of people who are striving for union and unity of faith, doctrine, belief, prosperity, etc. This is the context wherein which the Lord speaks of the only true and living church upon the face of the earth because it is the only covenant body that has been ordained and authorized through valid priesthood power. The creation narrative wasn't Adam and his harem but it was Adam and Eve. This is the Bride who is the "woman" who is Michael's bride prophesied of in Daniel 12 and Rev 12. All are invited to be a part of this true and living Bride and to be received into union with the Bridegroom. But, we also learn, there are some perils and challenges that this Bride suffers and endures before that wedding is complete and their union in Celestial Exaltation is fully consummated.

From what I hear you saying you desire with all of your heart to have the deepest most intimate connection with the Bridegroom that is possible and that you really wouldn't want to suffer any degree of separation from this full potential. I understand this to be exaltation in the highest degree of Celestial Glory, which is an entirely separate matter from the many varying degrees of salvation people can otherwise obtain. This is why I feel to urge you to consider doing a re-calibration of your perspective on the distinct tangible church body that represents the new Eve of the new Creation that is being brought about right now. This victory that we seek is to fully overcome the collective sin and darkness that prevails in our world right now through obtaining union with Christ at the deepest level. Before this happens we are to be proven true and faithful in all things, which means we will be subjected to many trials and tribulations and even perils. All of this will have far reaching consequences when you look at what Eve goes through before She is cleansed and redeemed and exalted in this manner. Being a member of this body in its cleansed, redeemed and exalted state is the manner in which we can attain to this highest degree of connection and intimacy with Christ. This is why I implore you to keep your eye upon the distinct and tangible body that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is the only body that fulfills all of the criteria in prophecy that points you to being ready to meet the Bridegroom when He comes. She started out being placed in the Garden of Eden, which we know as Jackson County Missouri, and that She transgresses and goes through a season of buffeting and tribulation in the wilderness, which we know as the Great Basin wasteland that became Utah. We know that She becomes severely polluted and usurped by the adversary during this time but that She does eventually get redeemed and is able to yet enter into exaltation in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom as the Mother of all Living for the new Creation she is the exalted Mother in Heaven of.

This is why I urge people to guard their feelings carefully in regard to this specific body of people. There isn't any other specific body of people who meet all of these detailed criteria. There are so many other aspects that align the Church with Eve that it is unequivocally and without question that the Church is Eve and that its destiny to be exalted as Eve is sure, no matter the pains, perils and pollutions endured along the way. It is easy to spurn Her while she is in the midst of peril as a usurped and polluted institution that is totally infested with tares, but it is so vitally important that you do not lose sight of the cleansing and redemption that will come. Maybe you needed to tap-out to step away from the front lines of this spiritual battle and perhaps you have a mission to accomplish to prepare the disenfranchised remnant that will be ready and waiting in the wings for when the cleansing is to take place and the tares who are all about the Luciferian usurpation are finally fully exposed and purged and the rightful saints can come back in and receive their blessings, the blessings you obviously are sincerely intent upon partaking of.

On a more personal note and a confession of my own is that having your eyes wide open to the pollution and corruption and the usurpation of Lucifer that has the Church in great peril and understanding the eternal consequences of these perils being reaped by people who, like you, claim to want to be closer to their Savior, but who through strong delusion are in fact among the Savior's fiercest enemies, it is a heavy weight on my soul to bear and I do just get downright lonely wishing for others to also have a vision to see these truths so that perhaps this weight can be shared and eventually lifted off of the truly penitent who sincerely want to do nothing more or less than build up the Father's Kingdom that our Savior gave his life to make us eligible to do so. We all have a part to play in this and we have a perilous journey to endure in order to bring it to its full fruition. I truly hope to see you there when all is said and done and Eve is cleansed and redeemed and exalted.
J as a minor point to your analysis you recognize I trust that there is no direct and tangible body bearing the name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints . There is legally no such entity . It is at very most a registered trademark. The entity that owns the trademark is the Corporation of the President of the CoJCoLDS... That entity as I suppose you know is a corporation sole the SOLE member of which is Thomas Monson.. Your stirring language suffers from a failure to speak accurately.How is one to follow a trademark? How is one to follow a corporation which does not permit my membership ? I can follow a person but a trademark really?

How very sad to see that someone like Boo who has served in the church as a Bishop and a temple worker only see's the restored Church of Jesus Christ as a trademarked corporation really no different than any other trademarked corporation functioning out there in babylon. He has made sacred covenants to sacrifice all for that church and kingdom of God on earth bearing the Saviors name and yet he now thinks so little of that kingdom that he has reduced it's significance to being nothing more than just a trademarked corporation sole. It truly is a sifting period in the church. :(
Lol. That was very manipulative, Mark.

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Rose Garden
Don't ask . . .
Posts: 7031
Contact:

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by Rose Garden »

boo wrote:
jwharton wrote:
Meili wrote:Despite my desire not to argue, I want to answer those things you addressed that I have not covered yet.

I sure hope I have cast no stone at the church or anyone with my words. I have been mindful of my covenants as well. I have fulfilled them all.

I expect my testimony is not complete if I do not boldly say that I do not believe the LDS Church is the bride of Christ. I believe the lines that delineate between the church of the lamb and the church of the devil are not set by any specific institution. I expect that when the time for the marriage comes, there will be those both in and out of the LDS church who are invited in. If I did not believe so, I would still be in the LDS church. The heart of the matter is, when I stopped believing I had to remain in the LDS church in order to be saved, there was nothing left keeping me there.
I don't consider exchanging point for point back and fourth to be a contentious argument.
It only becomes a contentious argument when one person withdraws their love and sincerity.
While you wish to bear witness and testimony of your personal feelings, of which I appreciate and have total sympathy towards, I too wish to bear witness and testimony to truths that are clear and explicit in the Word of God that have bearing upon this subject of vital importance. There are prophesies that when carefully considered teach very clear and simple truths. I agree that many people will attain glorious levels of salvation through Christ who are not members of any particular institution. There are indeed many mansions in the Father's House and it sounds to me like you have become comfortable accepting whatever mansion befits you. Because of this I do not wish to press you one way or another assuming that I know which mansion is best for you. I am also of a like-minded acceptance that I belong somewhere in the grand scheme of it all and that it may not be what others think I should strive for or desire.

My current frame of reference has me understanding that the "woman" spoken of in Revelation chapter 12 is in fact a distinct tangible being of flesh and bone, which means that it is a body of people united together by way of a consistent and uniform covenant administered by a priesthood organization that has the authority to represent God's side of the covenant. This means that to be a part of this body means that there is a specific organizational structure to it that you could call an institution but it in fact is supposed to be the Church of Christ. The way that God operates through the priesthood doesn't give allowance for this body to be a nebulous grouping of disparate people but rather a specific group of people who are striving for union and unity of faith, doctrine, belief, prosperity, etc. This is the context wherein which the Lord speaks of the only true and living church upon the face of the earth because it is the only covenant body that has been ordained and authorized through valid priesthood power. The creation narrative wasn't Adam and his harem but it was Adam and Eve. This is the Bride who is the "woman" who is Michael's bride prophesied of in Daniel 12 and Rev 12. All are invited to be a part of this true and living Bride and to be received into union with the Bridegroom. But, we also learn, there are some perils and challenges that this Bride suffers and endures before that wedding is complete and their union in Celestial Exaltation is fully consummated.

From what I hear you saying you desire with all of your heart to have the deepest most intimate connection with the Bridegroom that is possible and that you really wouldn't want to suffer any degree of separation from this full potential. I understand this to be exaltation in the highest degree of Celestial Glory, which is an entirely separate matter from the many varying degrees of salvation people can otherwise obtain. This is why I feel to urge you to consider doing a re-calibration of your perspective on the distinct tangible church body that represents the new Eve of the new Creation that is being brought about right now. This victory that we seek is to fully overcome the collective sin and darkness that prevails in our world right now through obtaining union with Christ at the deepest level. Before this happens we are to be proven true and faithful in all things, which means we will be subjected to many trials and tribulations and even perils. All of this will have far reaching consequences when you look at what Eve goes through before She is cleansed and redeemed and exalted in this manner. Being a member of this body in its cleansed, redeemed and exalted state is the manner in which we can attain to this highest degree of connection and intimacy with Christ. This is why I implore you to keep your eye upon the distinct and tangible body that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is the only body that fulfills all of the criteria in prophecy that points you to being ready to meet the Bridegroom when He comes. She started out being placed in the Garden of Eden, which we know as Jackson County Missouri, and that She transgresses and goes through a season of buffeting and tribulation in the wilderness, which we know as the Great Basin wasteland that became Utah. We know that She becomes severely polluted and usurped by the adversary during this time but that She does eventually get redeemed and is able to yet enter into exaltation in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom as the Mother of all Living for the new Creation she is the exalted Mother in Heaven of.

This is why I urge people to guard their feelings carefully in regard to this specific body of people. There isn't any other specific body of people who meet all of these detailed criteria. There are so many other aspects that align the Church with Eve that it is unequivocally and without question that the Church is Eve and that its destiny to be exalted as Eve is sure, no matter the pains, perils and pollutions endured along the way. It is easy to spurn Her while she is in the midst of peril as a usurped and polluted institution that is totally infested with tares, but it is so vitally important that you do not lose sight of the cleansing and redemption that will come. Maybe you needed to tap-out to step away from the front lines of this spiritual battle and perhaps you have a mission to accomplish to prepare the disenfranchised remnant that will be ready and waiting in the wings for when the cleansing is to take place and the tares who are all about the Luciferian usurpation are finally fully exposed and purged and the rightful saints can come back in and receive their blessings, the blessings you obviously are sincerely intent upon partaking of.

On a more personal note and a confession of my own is that having your eyes wide open to the pollution and corruption and the usurpation of Lucifer that has the Church in great peril and understanding the eternal consequences of these perils being reaped by people who, like you, claim to want to be closer to their Savior, but who through strong delusion are in fact among the Savior's fiercest enemies, it is a heavy weight on my soul to bear and I do just get downright lonely wishing for others to also have a vision to see these truths so that perhaps this weight can be shared and eventually lifted off of the truly penitent who sincerely want to do nothing more or less than build up the Father's Kingdom that our Savior gave his life to make us eligible to do so. We all have a part to play in this and we have a perilous journey to endure in order to bring it to its full fruition. I truly hope to see you there when all is said and done and Eve is cleansed and redeemed and exalted.
J as a minor point to your analysis you recognize I trust that there is no direct and tangible body bearing the name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints . There is legally no such entity . It is at very most a registered trademark. The entity that owns the trademark is the Corporation of the President of the CoJCoLDS... That entity as I suppose you know is a corporation sole the SOLE member of which is Thomas Monson.. Your stirring language suffers from a failure to speak accurately.How is one to follow a trademark? How is one to follow a corporation which does not permit my membership ? I can follow a person but a trademark really?
Boo, there is such an entity. This is the point that I am trying to make. Can the existence of a corporation sole erase the impact of millions of people who call themselves members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Does not the fact that individual people believe with all their souls that they are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually mean that such a church exists? It is what is in the hearts of the individuals that matters.

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by jwharton »

boo wrote:J as a minor point to your analysis you recognize I trust that there is no direct and tangible body bearing the name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints . There is legally no such entity . It is at very most a registered trademark. The entity that owns the trademark is the Corporation of the President of the CoJCoLDS... That entity as I suppose you know is a corporation sole the SOLE member of which is Thomas Monson. Your stirring language suffers from a failure to speak accurately.How is one to follow a trademark? How is one to follow a corporation which does not permit my membership ? I can follow a person but a trademark really?
I am aware of the factual points you are making here.
I also do consider them more than just minor points.
I also consider this as part of the generalized references I made to part of Eve's perils.

You are correct in that I am not advocating fidelity to a charter of a corporation sole or to a trademark.
I am advocating loyalty to the church body organized according to the oracles of God given to Joseph Smith Jr.
I am advocating that this distinct and tangible body is the "woman" prophecy speaks of who yet remains out in the wilderness in need of redemption.

I have not taken it upon myself to itemize all of the pollution and usurpation, etc. that She currently needs redemption from.

So, because I have only addressed them in a general sense, I leave the door open to you to apply your own point of view.

It sounds to me like according to you an important part of the process of the Bride's redemption would be to unshackle Her from this legal restructuring that put Her under the jurisdiction of a corporate charter and by extension beholden to a corrupt government rather than under the sole governance of the oracles of God.

Perhaps you should also mention that this restructuring into a corporation sole didn't happen until the early 1900's, I believe, under Heber J. Grant.

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Rose Garden
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by Rose Garden »

jwharton wrote:
Meili wrote:Despite my desire not to argue, I want to answer those things you addressed that I have not covered yet.

I sure hope I have cast no stone at the church or anyone with my words. I have been mindful of my covenants as well. I have fulfilled them all.

I expect my testimony is not complete if I do not boldly say that I do not believe the LDS Church is the bride of Christ. I believe the lines that delineate between the church of the lamb and the church of the devil are not set by any specific institution. I expect that when the time for the marriage comes, there will be those both in and out of the LDS church who are invited in. If I did not believe so, I would still be in the LDS church. The heart of the matter is, when I stopped believing I had to remain in the LDS church in order to be saved, there was nothing left keeping me there.
I don't consider exchanging point for point back and fourth to be a contentious argument.
It only becomes a contentious argument when one person withdraws their love and sincerity.
While you wish to bear witness and testimony of your personal feelings, of which I appreciate and have total sympathy towards, I too wish to bear witness and testimony to truths that are clear and explicit in the Word of God that have bearing upon this subject of vital importance. There are prophesies that when carefully considered teach very clear and simple truths. I agree that many people will attain glorious levels of salvation through Christ who are not members of any particular institution. There are indeed many mansions in the Father's House and it sounds to me like you have become comfortable accepting whatever mansion befits you. Because of this I do not wish to press you one way or another assuming that I know which mansion is best for you. I am also of a like-minded acceptance that I belong somewhere in the grand scheme of it all and that it may not be what others think I should strive for or desire.

My current frame of reference has me understanding that the "woman" spoken of in Revelation chapter 12 is in fact a distinct tangible being of flesh and bone, which means that it is a body of people united together by way of a consistent and uniform covenant administered by a priesthood organization that has the authority to represent God's side of the covenant. This means that to be a part of this body means that there is a specific organizational structure to it that you could call an institution but it in fact is supposed to be the Church of Christ. The way that God operates through the priesthood doesn't give allowance for this body to be a nebulous grouping of disparate people but rather a specific group of people who are striving for union and unity of faith, doctrine, belief, prosperity, etc. This is the context wherein which the Lord speaks of the only true and living church upon the face of the earth because it is the only covenant body that has been ordained and authorized through valid priesthood power. The creation narrative wasn't Adam and his harem but it was Adam and Eve. This is the Bride who is the "woman" who is Michael's bride prophesied of in Daniel 12 and Rev 12. All are invited to be a part of this true and living Bride and to be received into union with the Bridegroom. But, we also learn, there are some perils and challenges that this Bride suffers and endures before that wedding is complete and their union in Celestial Exaltation is fully consummated.

From what I hear you saying you desire with all of your heart to have the deepest most intimate connection with the Bridegroom that is possible and that you really wouldn't want to suffer any degree of separation from this full potential. I understand this to be exaltation in the highest degree of Celestial Glory, which is an entirely separate matter from the many varying degrees of salvation people can otherwise obtain. This is why I feel to urge you to consider doing a re-calibration of your perspective on the distinct tangible church body that represents the new Eve of the new Creation that is being brought about right now. This victory that we seek is to fully overcome the collective sin and darkness that prevails in our world right now through obtaining union with Christ at the deepest level. Before this happens we are to be proven true and faithful in all things, which means we will be subjected to many trials and tribulations and even perils. All of this will have far reaching consequences when you look at what Eve goes through before She is cleansed and redeemed and exalted in this manner. Being a member of this body in its cleansed, redeemed and exalted state is the manner in which we can attain to this highest degree of connection and intimacy with Christ. This is why I implore you to keep your eye upon the distinct and tangible body that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is the only body that fulfills all of the criteria in prophecy that points you to being ready to meet the Bridegroom when He comes. She started out being placed in the Garden of Eden, which we know as Jackson County Missouri, and that She transgresses and goes through a season of buffeting and tribulation in the wilderness, which we know as the Great Basin wasteland that became Utah. We know that She becomes severely polluted and usurped by the adversary during this time but that She does eventually get redeemed and is able to yet enter into exaltation in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom as the Mother of all Living for the new Creation she is the exalted Mother in Heaven of.

This is why I urge people to guard their feelings carefully in regard to this specific body of people. There isn't any other specific body of people who meet all of these detailed criteria. There are so many other aspects that align the Church with Eve that it is unequivocally and without question that the Church is Eve and that its destiny to be exalted as Eve is sure, no matter the pains, perils and pollutions endured along the way. It is easy to spurn Her while she is in the midst of peril as a usurped and polluted institution that is totally infested with tares, but it is so vitally important that you do not lose sight of the cleansing and redemption that will come. Maybe you needed to tap-out to step away from the front lines of this spiritual battle and perhaps you have a mission to accomplish to prepare the disenfranchised remnant that will be ready and waiting in the wings for when the cleansing is to take place and the tares who are all about the Luciferian usurpation are finally fully exposed and purged and the rightful saints can come back in and receive their blessings, the blessings you obviously are sincerely intent upon partaking of.

On a more personal note and a confession of my own is that having your eyes wide open to the pollution and corruption and the usurpation of Lucifer that has the Church in great peril and understanding the eternal consequences of these perils being reaped by people who, like you, claim to want to be closer to their Savior, but who through strong delusion are in fact among the Savior's fiercest enemies, it is a heavy weight on my soul to bear and I do just get downright lonely wishing for others to also have a vision to see these truths so that perhaps this weight can be shared and eventually lifted off of the truly penitent who sincerely want to do nothing more or less than build up the Father's Kingdom that our Savior gave his life to make us eligible to do so. We all have a part to play in this and we have a perilous journey to endure in order to bring it to its full fruition. I truly hope to see you there when all is said and done and Eve is cleansed and redeemed and exalted.
I don't see exchanging points back and forth as contentious either, but I don't want to underestimate my propensity to puff myself up and cause contention even if only in my own heart. I feel no contention thus far so I'll continue.

I'm trying to consider what is the best way to organize my thoughts. Please forgive my difficulty in putting everything together.

I think that what concerns me most is that, as you said, I am considered "among the Savior's fiercest enemies." I am not sure what behavior of mine has brought on that evaluation. Is the mere fact that I currently reside outside of the body of the church an undeniable witness that I am an enemy to Christ?

My purpose is to seek Christ myself and do all in my power to help others to do so. If I endeavor to help others come unto Christ, I do so at whatever level they are at. I encourage members of the LDS church to follow the prophet, as they believe is right, and have several times offered to study the General Conference talks with them (but no one has taken me up on the offer). I try my very best to keep my comments within the parameters that church members recognize as truth and to never entice them to leave the church or feel any feelings of disaffection towards it. I recognize that I have no need to separate anyone from the church in order to invite them to come to Christ.

The only reason I am engaging in this conversation was because I felt your comments warranted a response and I felt that I ought to bear witness of what I perceive to be the truth. I focused on myself because that is the only sphere that I believe I am qualified to truly testify of. I am addressing you as an individual. I have said nothing, as I see it, to attack the church, but only have claimed that in my fervent desire to follow the Savior I was led out of it. That is the truth and I cannot in truth say any different but I do not mean to cast the church in a bad light because of it.

If I truly am an enemy to Christ, I want to know why that is. I cannot see, even in your comments, specifically why that would be. Please feel free to expound on that point.

To me, if I am faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ, then I cannot be unfaithful to his bride. I do expect that, as you stated, if the church is truly the bride of Christ, I will be led back to it according to the wisdom and order of the Lord. When I say I don't expect that to happen, it is because I don't see the LDS church, as it is currently organized, to be the bride of Christ. That could change if revelation led me to believe otherwise. I just don't expect that to happen.

To me, there is no difference between being within or without the body of the "corporation sole" church, as Boo states. As I mentioned in my comments to him, it is about the individual heart. If millions of people believe they are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints then the church exists. If they all become convinced, for whatever reason, that they are no longer members, then it will cease to exist. If all the members come to believe that the LDS church is merely a corporation sole and they've been taken for a ride, then the church will cease to exist. This is why I feel no fidelity to the church. I see it as something that could be dissolved.

But any individual, inside or outside of the church, could be convinced that they personally are Christ's, that they personally are wholly dedicated to him. Any individual can be so dedicated to Jesus Christ that they would fall down trembling in fear at the thought of doing anything against his will. And if a person is at that point, who can say that they are not His bride? They can only say in truthfulness, I believe, that at some time when the body of Christ's bride is healed and comes together in a perfected state, they will be within that body.

Please understand that you are not alone. You are taking an individual journey because all of us must individually come to Christ, but you are not alone in taking that journey. You are my brother.

I would love to hear anything that you would like to share about your understanding of Eve and how the church fits the pattern you have seen. While we don't see eye to eye on the church, I consider your insights inspired and have found them helpful on my spiritual journey before.

boo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1559
Location: Arizona

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by boo »

jwharton wrote:
boo wrote:J as a minor point to your analysis you recognize I trust that there is no direct and tangible body bearing the name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints . There is legally no such entity . It is at very most a registered trademark. The entity that owns the trademark is the Corporation of the President of the CoJCoLDS... That entity as I suppose you know is a corporation sole the SOLE member of which is Thomas Monson. Your stirring language suffers from a failure to speak accurately.How is one to follow a trademark? How is one to follow a corporation which does not permit my membership ? I can follow a person but a trademark really?
I am aware of the factual points you are making here.
I also do consider them more than just minor points.
I also consider this as part of the generalized references I made to part of Eve's perils.

You are correct in that I am not advocating fidelity to a charter of a corporation sole or to a trademark.
I am advocating loyalty to the church body organized according to the oracles of God given to Joseph Smith Jr.
I am advocating that this distinct and tangible body is the "woman" prophecy speaks of who yet remains out in the wilderness in need of redemption.

I have not taken it upon myself to itemize all of the pollution and usurpation, etc. that She currently needs redemption from.

So, because I have only addressed them in a general sense, I leave the door open to you to apply your own point of view.

It sounds to me like according to you an important part of the process of the Bride's redemption would be to unshackle Her from this legal restructuring that put Her under the jurisdiction of a corporate charter and by extension beholden to a corrupt government rather than under the sole governance of the oracles of God.

Perhaps you should also mention that this restructuring into a corporation sole didn't happen until the early 1900's, I believe, under Heber J. Grant.
You are correct it was Heber . J Grant As a point of interest he is also the guy who make drinking beer and wine contrary to the WoW. In general I agree with your analysis. In my narrow and some would say erroneous view what we see happening sadly is what the Lord prophesied in 3Nephi 16 and Moroni in Mormon 8

boo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1559
Location: Arizona

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by boo »

Meili wrote:
boo wrote:
jwharton wrote:
Meili wrote:Despite my desire not to argue, I want to answer those things you addressed that I have not covered yet.

I sure hope I have cast no stone at the church or anyone with my words. I have been mindful of my covenants as well. I have fulfilled them all.

I expect my testimony is not complete if I do not boldly say that I do not believe the LDS Church is the bride of Christ. I believe the lines that delineate between the church of the lamb and the church of the devil are not set by any specific institution. I expect that when the time for the marriage comes, there will be those both in and out of the LDS church who are invited in. If I did not believe so, I would still be in the LDS church. The heart of the matter is, when I stopped believing I had to remain in the LDS church in order to be saved, there was nothing left keeping me there.
I don't consider exchanging point for point back and fourth to be a contentious argument.
It only becomes a contentious argument when one person withdraws their love and sincerity.
While you wish to bear witness and testimony of your personal feelings, of which I appreciate and have total sympathy towards, I too wish to bear witness and testimony to truths that are clear and explicit in the Word of God that have bearing upon this subject of vital importance. There are prophesies that when carefully considered teach very clear and simple truths. I agree that many people will attain glorious levels of salvation through Christ who are not members of any particular institution. There are indeed many mansions in the Father's House and it sounds to me like you have become comfortable accepting whatever mansion befits you. Because of this I do not wish to press you one way or another assuming that I know which mansion is best for you. I am also of a like-minded acceptance that I belong somewhere in the grand scheme of it all and that it may not be what others think I should strive for or desire.

My current frame of reference has me understanding that the "woman" spoken of in Revelation chapter 12 is in fact a distinct tangible being of flesh and bone, which means that it is a body of people united together by way of a consistent and uniform covenant administered by a priesthood organization that has the authority to represent God's side of the covenant. This means that to be a part of this body means that there is a specific organizational structure to it that you could call an institution but it in fact is supposed to be the Church of Christ. The way that God operates through the priesthood doesn't give allowance for this body to be a nebulous grouping of disparate people but rather a specific group of people who are striving for union and unity of faith, doctrine, belief, prosperity, etc. This is the context wherein which the Lord speaks of the only true and living church upon the face of the earth because it is the only covenant body that has been ordained and authorized through valid priesthood power. The creation narrative wasn't Adam and his harem but it was Adam and Eve. This is the Bride who is the "woman" who is Michael's bride prophesied of in Daniel 12 and Rev 12. All are invited to be a part of this true and living Bride and to be received into union with the Bridegroom. But, we also learn, there are some perils and challenges that this Bride suffers and endures before that wedding is complete and their union in Celestial Exaltation is fully consummated.

From what I hear you saying you desire with all of your heart to have the deepest most intimate connection with the Bridegroom that is possible and that you really wouldn't want to suffer any degree of separation from this full potential. I understand this to be exaltation in the highest degree of Celestial Glory, which is an entirely separate matter from the many varying degrees of salvation people can otherwise obtain. This is why I feel to urge you to consider doing a re-calibration of your perspective on the distinct tangible church body that represents the new Eve of the new Creation that is being brought about right now. This victory that we seek is to fully overcome the collective sin and darkness that prevails in our world right now through obtaining union with Christ at the deepest level. Before this happens we are to be proven true and faithful in all things, which means we will be subjected to many trials and tribulations and even perils. All of this will have far reaching consequences when you look at what Eve goes through before She is cleansed and redeemed and exalted in this manner. Being a member of this body in its cleansed, redeemed and exalted state is the manner in which we can attain to this highest degree of connection and intimacy with Christ. This is why I implore you to keep your eye upon the distinct and tangible body that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is the only body that fulfills all of the criteria in prophecy that points you to being ready to meet the Bridegroom when He comes. She started out being placed in the Garden of Eden, which we know as Jackson County Missouri, and that She transgresses and goes through a season of buffeting and tribulation in the wilderness, which we know as the Great Basin wasteland that became Utah. We know that She becomes severely polluted and usurped by the adversary during this time but that She does eventually get redeemed and is able to yet enter into exaltation in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom as the Mother of all Living for the new Creation she is the exalted Mother in Heaven of.

This is why I urge people to guard their feelings carefully in regard to this specific body of people. There isn't any other specific body of people who meet all of these detailed criteria. There are so many other aspects that align the Church with Eve that it is unequivocally and without question that the Church is Eve and that its destiny to be exalted as Eve is sure, no matter the pains, perils and pollutions endured along the way. It is easy to spurn Her while she is in the midst of peril as a usurped and polluted institution that is totally infested with tares, but it is so vitally important that you do not lose sight of the cleansing and redemption that will come. Maybe you needed to tap-out to step away from the front lines of this spiritual battle and perhaps you have a mission to accomplish to prepare the disenfranchised remnant that will be ready and waiting in the wings for when the cleansing is to take place and the tares who are all about the Luciferian usurpation are finally fully exposed and purged and the rightful saints can come back in and receive their blessings, the blessings you obviously are sincerely intent upon partaking of.

On a more personal note and a confession of my own is that having your eyes wide open to the pollution and corruption and the usurpation of Lucifer that has the Church in great peril and understanding the eternal consequences of these perils being reaped by people who, like you, claim to want to be closer to their Savior, but who through strong delusion are in fact among the Savior's fiercest enemies, it is a heavy weight on my soul to bear and I do just get downright lonely wishing for others to also have a vision to see these truths so that perhaps this weight can be shared and eventually lifted off of the truly penitent who sincerely want to do nothing more or less than build up the Father's Kingdom that our Savior gave his life to make us eligible to do so. We all have a part to play in this and we have a perilous journey to endure in order to bring it to its full fruition. I truly hope to see you there when all is said and done and Eve is cleansed and redeemed and exalted.
J as a minor point to your analysis you recognize I trust that there is no direct and tangible body bearing the name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints . There is legally no such entity . It is at very most a registered trademark. The entity that owns the trademark is the Corporation of the President of the CoJCoLDS... That entity as I suppose you know is a corporation sole the SOLE member of which is Thomas Monson.. Your stirring language suffers from a failure to speak accurately.How is one to follow a trademark? How is one to follow a corporation which does not permit my membership ? I can follow a person but a trademark really?
Boo, there is such an entity. This is the point that I am trying to make. Can the existence of a corporation sole erase the impact of millions of people who call themselves members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Does not the fact that individual people believe with all their souls that they are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually mean that such a church exists? It is what is in the hearts of the individuals that matters.
Unfortunately while what is in ones heart matters a great deal it can not change the requirements of God . To the extent such people have repented and come unto the Savior they are members of a church even his church D&C10: 67 ,but that church is the Church of the Lamb. Alas there is no necessary correspondence between the two. All of the wishing and hoping in the world by an individual can not change the fact that we have as Jwarthon argues "polluted the Holy church of God " Mormon 8:38 . The only church in which membership counts eternally is the Church of thr Lamb. That is why some can serve a trademark recognizing that by doing so we serve our brothers and sisters in the Church of the Lamb.

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by jwharton »

Meili wrote: I don't see exchanging points back and forth as contentious either, but I don't want to underestimate my propensity to puff myself up and cause contention even if only in my own heart. I feel no contention thus far so I'll continue.

I'm trying to consider what is the best way to organize my thoughts. Please forgive my difficulty in putting everything together.

I think that what concerns me most is that, as you said, I am considered "among the Savior's fiercest enemies." I am not sure what behavior of mine has brought on that evaluation. Is the mere fact that I currently reside outside of the body of the church an undeniable witness that I am an enemy to Christ?
I so appreciate your willingness to continue. I also request for you to be patient with me as well. I don't always get words out as I intend.

I apologize if you felt that I was directly assessing you as being "among the Savior's fiercest enemies". What I was hoping to do was to help reveal the principle upon which otherwise well-intending people can slip over into that category. Please simply grasp the concept and then perform your own self-evaluation.
Meili wrote:My purpose is to seek Christ myself and do all in my power to help others to do so. If I endeavor to help others come unto Christ, I do so at whatever level they are at. I encourage members of the LDS church to follow the prophet, as they believe is right, and have several times offered to study the General Conference talks with them (but no one has taken me up on the offer). I try my very best to keep my comments within the parameters that church members recognize as truth and to never entice them to leave the church or feel any feelings of disaffection towards it. I recognize that I have no need to separate anyone from the church in order to invite them to come to Christ.
That is definitely a respectful posture and it shows maturity on your part, which I respect.
But, if you represent or teach that the ordinances are unimportant and irrelevant, then you are going contrary to Christ's doctrine.
If you also represent or teach that ordinances can be performed outside of a body duly authorized to do so, you are also going contrary to Christ's doctrine.
While your heart is in as right of a place as you have power to get it, there are also important formalities deserving of full consideration too.
This is why the dilemma we are in is such a significant problem. We need to form a covenant body where we are united in one faith and in one baptism so that we can truly be a spiritual family all of one uniform spirit. There is only so much and so far we can go if we are all in maverick mode.

And, for the time being, maverick mode is more or less being imposed upon us by our circumstances, but for the Father's Kingdom to fully manifest in all of its power and glory and to be able to rise above the powers of the adversary, we need to get out of maverick mode and actually accomplish what Jesus has been pointing us to all along, which is the Father's Kingdom. He wasn't prepping us to all just go our own way but he was teaching us the principles upon which a true union (at-one-ment) is possible as a covenant body. This is the purpose of the intercessory prayer that we all may become one together.

I won't respond to your remaining remarks because they seemed to be geared towards something I wasn't really intending to convey.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by jwharton »

boo wrote:You are correct it was Heber . J Grant As a point of interest he is also the guy who make drinking beer and wine contrary to the WoW. In general I agree with your analysis. In my narrow and some would say erroneous view what we see happening sadly is what the Lord prophesied in 3Nephi 16 and Moroni in Mormon 8
I believe Heber J. Grant was heard lamenting that "the heavens are as brass to me" when he would go in and seek the Word of the Lord in the holy of holies.

According to this admission, something very tangible had become lost by that time. This is why there are no further "oracles" received because the heavens became as brass and have remained as brass, at least insofar as Celestial ministration is concerned. Our leaders certainly qualify for Telestial ministration by the Holy Ghost, but if you reject and no longer live the higher laws you also lose the capacity to receive the higher ministration.

Note: Brass is non-conductive so it is used as a metaphor to say there was nothing but silence.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by Rose Garden »

boo wrote:
Meili wrote:
boo wrote:
jwharton wrote: I don't consider exchanging point for point back and fourth to be a contentious argument.
It only becomes a contentious argument when one person withdraws their love and sincerity.
While you wish to bear witness and testimony of your personal feelings, of which I appreciate and have total sympathy towards, I too wish to bear witness and testimony to truths that are clear and explicit in the Word of God that have bearing upon this subject of vital importance. There are prophesies that when carefully considered teach very clear and simple truths. I agree that many people will attain glorious levels of salvation through Christ who are not members of any particular institution. There are indeed many mansions in the Father's House and it sounds to me like you have become comfortable accepting whatever mansion befits you. Because of this I do not wish to press you one way or another assuming that I know which mansion is best for you. I am also of a like-minded acceptance that I belong somewhere in the grand scheme of it all and that it may not be what others think I should strive for or desire.

My current frame of reference has me understanding that the "woman" spoken of in Revelation chapter 12 is in fact a distinct tangible being of flesh and bone, which means that it is a body of people united together by way of a consistent and uniform covenant administered by a priesthood organization that has the authority to represent God's side of the covenant. This means that to be a part of this body means that there is a specific organizational structure to it that you could call an institution but it in fact is supposed to be the Church of Christ. The way that God operates through the priesthood doesn't give allowance for this body to be a nebulous grouping of disparate people but rather a specific group of people who are striving for union and unity of faith, doctrine, belief, prosperity, etc. This is the context wherein which the Lord speaks of the only true and living church upon the face of the earth because it is the only covenant body that has been ordained and authorized through valid priesthood power. The creation narrative wasn't Adam and his harem but it was Adam and Eve. This is the Bride who is the "woman" who is Michael's bride prophesied of in Daniel 12 and Rev 12. All are invited to be a part of this true and living Bride and to be received into union with the Bridegroom. But, we also learn, there are some perils and challenges that this Bride suffers and endures before that wedding is complete and their union in Celestial Exaltation is fully consummated.

From what I hear you saying you desire with all of your heart to have the deepest most intimate connection with the Bridegroom that is possible and that you really wouldn't want to suffer any degree of separation from this full potential. I understand this to be exaltation in the highest degree of Celestial Glory, which is an entirely separate matter from the many varying degrees of salvation people can otherwise obtain. This is why I feel to urge you to consider doing a re-calibration of your perspective on the distinct tangible church body that represents the new Eve of the new Creation that is being brought about right now. This victory that we seek is to fully overcome the collective sin and darkness that prevails in our world right now through obtaining union with Christ at the deepest level. Before this happens we are to be proven true and faithful in all things, which means we will be subjected to many trials and tribulations and even perils. All of this will have far reaching consequences when you look at what Eve goes through before She is cleansed and redeemed and exalted in this manner. Being a member of this body in its cleansed, redeemed and exalted state is the manner in which we can attain to this highest degree of connection and intimacy with Christ. This is why I implore you to keep your eye upon the distinct and tangible body that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is the only body that fulfills all of the criteria in prophecy that points you to being ready to meet the Bridegroom when He comes. She started out being placed in the Garden of Eden, which we know as Jackson County Missouri, and that She transgresses and goes through a season of buffeting and tribulation in the wilderness, which we know as the Great Basin wasteland that became Utah. We know that She becomes severely polluted and usurped by the adversary during this time but that She does eventually get redeemed and is able to yet enter into exaltation in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom as the Mother of all Living for the new Creation she is the exalted Mother in Heaven of.

This is why I urge people to guard their feelings carefully in regard to this specific body of people. There isn't any other specific body of people who meet all of these detailed criteria. There are so many other aspects that align the Church with Eve that it is unequivocally and without question that the Church is Eve and that its destiny to be exalted as Eve is sure, no matter the pains, perils and pollutions endured along the way. It is easy to spurn Her while she is in the midst of peril as a usurped and polluted institution that is totally infested with tares, but it is so vitally important that you do not lose sight of the cleansing and redemption that will come. Maybe you needed to tap-out to step away from the front lines of this spiritual battle and perhaps you have a mission to accomplish to prepare the disenfranchised remnant that will be ready and waiting in the wings for when the cleansing is to take place and the tares who are all about the Luciferian usurpation are finally fully exposed and purged and the rightful saints can come back in and receive their blessings, the blessings you obviously are sincerely intent upon partaking of.

On a more personal note and a confession of my own is that having your eyes wide open to the pollution and corruption and the usurpation of Lucifer that has the Church in great peril and understanding the eternal consequences of these perils being reaped by people who, like you, claim to want to be closer to their Savior, but who through strong delusion are in fact among the Savior's fiercest enemies, it is a heavy weight on my soul to bear and I do just get downright lonely wishing for others to also have a vision to see these truths so that perhaps this weight can be shared and eventually lifted off of the truly penitent who sincerely want to do nothing more or less than build up the Father's Kingdom that our Savior gave his life to make us eligible to do so. We all have a part to play in this and we have a perilous journey to endure in order to bring it to its full fruition. I truly hope to see you there when all is said and done and Eve is cleansed and redeemed and exalted.
J as a minor point to your analysis you recognize I trust that there is no direct and tangible body bearing the name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints . There is legally no such entity . It is at very most a registered trademark. The entity that owns the trademark is the Corporation of the President of the CoJCoLDS... That entity as I suppose you know is a corporation sole the SOLE member of which is Thomas Monson.. Your stirring language suffers from a failure to speak accurately.How is one to follow a trademark? How is one to follow a corporation which does not permit my membership ? I can follow a person but a trademark really?
Boo, there is such an entity. This is the point that I am trying to make. Can the existence of a corporation sole erase the impact of millions of people who call themselves members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Does not the fact that individual people believe with all their souls that they are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually mean that such a church exists? It is what is in the hearts of the individuals that matters.
Unfortunately while what is in ones heart matters a great deal it can not change the requirements of God . To the extent such people have repented and come unto the Savior they are members of a church even his church D&C10: 67 ,but that church is the Church of the Lamb. Alas there is no necessary correspondence between the two. All of the wishing and hoping in the world by an individual can not change the fact that we have as Jwarthon argues "polluted the Holy church of God " Mormon 8:38 . The only church in which membership counts eternally is the Church of thr Lamb. That is why some can serve a trademark recognizing that by doing so we serve our brothers and sisters in the Church of the Lamb.
I agree with you that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isn't necessarily the church of the lamb. My only point is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does indeed exist. The corporation sole and everything that goes along with it only exists in the minds of those who know of it and honor it. Those who abide in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and who are truly seeking Christ and believe that their membership in the LDS church is vital to their relationship with Christ are, I believe, every bit a part of the church of the lamb as any of the rest of us blind sheep. The Lord's sheep hear his voice and do their best to follow him, but as is often reminded us, even the very elect struggle with deceit.

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Rose Garden
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by Rose Garden »

jwharton wrote:
Meili wrote: I don't see exchanging points back and forth as contentious either, but I don't want to underestimate my propensity to puff myself up and cause contention even if only in my own heart. I feel no contention thus far so I'll continue.

I'm trying to consider what is the best way to organize my thoughts. Please forgive my difficulty in putting everything together.

I think that what concerns me most is that, as you said, I am considered "among the Savior's fiercest enemies." I am not sure what behavior of mine has brought on that evaluation. Is the mere fact that I currently reside outside of the body of the church an undeniable witness that I am an enemy to Christ?
I so appreciate your willingness to continue. I also request for you to be patient with me as well. I don't always get words out as I intend.

I apologize if you felt that I was directly assessing you as being "among the Savior's fiercest enemies". What I was hoping to do was to help reveal the principle upon which otherwise well-intending people can slip over into that category. Please simply grasp the concept and then perform your own self-evaluation.
Meili wrote:My purpose is to seek Christ myself and do all in my power to help others to do so. If I endeavor to help others come unto Christ, I do so at whatever level they are at. I encourage members of the LDS church to follow the prophet, as they believe is right, and have several times offered to study the General Conference talks with them (but no one has taken me up on the offer). I try my very best to keep my comments within the parameters that church members recognize as truth and to never entice them to leave the church or feel any feelings of disaffection towards it. I recognize that I have no need to separate anyone from the church in order to invite them to come to Christ.
That is definitely a respectful posture and it shows maturity on your part, which I respect.
But, if you represent or teach that the ordinances are unimportant and irrelevant, then you are going contrary to Christ's doctrine.
If you also represent or teach that ordinances can be performed outside of a body duly authorized to do so, you are also going contrary to Christ's doctrine.
While your heart is in as right of a place as you have power to get it, there are also important formalities deserving of full consideration too.
This is why the dilemma we are in is such a significant problem. We need to form a covenant body where we are united in one faith and in one baptism so that we can truly be a spiritual family all of one uniform spirit. There is only so much and so far we can go if we are all in maverick mode.

And, for the time being, maverick mode is more or less being imposed upon us by our circumstances, but for the Father's Kingdom to fully manifest in all of its power and glory and to be able to rise above the powers of the adversary, we need to get out of maverick mode and actually accomplish what Jesus has been pointing us to all along, which is the Father's Kingdom. He wasn't prepping us to all just go our own way but he was teaching us the principles upon which a true union (at-one-ment) is possible as a covenant body. This is the purpose of the intercessory prayer that we all may become one together.

I won't respond to your remaining remarks because they seemed to be geared towards something I wasn't really intending to convey.
It did seem like you were indicating that I personally was an enemy to Christ. I was not offended, however. I'm still not quite sure what the principle is that you are referring to, but I would certainly agree that anyone seeking to draw people out of the church are ill-advised, if that is what it is.

I can't with any conscious say that the ordinances (within the LDS church) are unimportant and irrelevant. I do believe they have power to help someone come to Christ. I would say my perspective may differ in that I feel that the outer ordinances are only symbols of the real thing and that they of themselves can't save us. I believe that we can use the symbols in the ordinances of the LDS church to help us understand what we must do on a spiritual level to go to the Lord.

I'm going into philosophizing here, so don't hold this against me, but I think that the physical ordinances might be of greater spiritual effect if the church were more spiritually guided in their practice of them. If I'm understanding what I have read, Joseph Smith performed ordinances on specific people as guided by the Spirit. I believe that those people had to have completed the spiritual ordinances before they were afforded the physical ones. I think the mode in which people are approved to attend the temple has been greatly disassociated from the Spirit and therefore temple attendance serves more as a classroom type experience than perhaps it has the potential to be. In other words, it serves to teach people to seek Christ rather than seals those blessings on them.

At any rate, one part of my last post that you overlooked was my invitation to share more of what you understand about the church being a representative of the body of Eve or Christ's bride. Please, if you feel it is appropriate to share those things, I would love to read them (perhaps on a new thread dedicated to that purpose). I am intrigued by the idea and would like to know what you see.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by jwharton »

Meili wrote:I agree with you that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isn't necessarily the church of the lamb. My only point is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does indeed exist. The corporation sole and everything that goes along with it only exists in the minds of those who know of it and honor it. Those who abide in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and who are truly seeking Christ and believe that their membership in the LDS church is vital to their relationship with Christ are, I believe, every bit a part of the church of the lamb as any of the rest of us blind sheep. The Lord's sheep hear his voice and do their best to follow him, but as is often reminded us, even the very elect struggle with deceit.
I really like the way you put this. That is my point as well.

Just because the church restructured the legal instrument it controls ownership of its physical assets in did not change the fact that it is still the covenant body authorized to perform the ordinances of salvation. I question the wisdom of having done this because I believe it was unwise to put the entire wealth of the church in a single legal entity, but that is what was done. I believe doing such makes the church that much easier to control by external governmental or corrupt powers. I would much rather see all of the church's assets held in local living trusts administered by the several bishops. Distribution of power and control in this manner would make it nearly impossible to confiscate all of the church's assets. They would have to have a legal battle with every single ward in the entire world to clean us out. As it is now, one judge could totally gut the church of its entire assets. Actually, there is more than one corporation, but the tendency to begin the centralization and consolidation of power and control from all the wards and branches has been ongoing for some time now.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by jwharton »

I didn't finish responding to parts of your post that I yet wanted to.
Meili wrote:To me, if I am faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ, then I cannot be unfaithful to his bride. I do expect that, as you stated, if the church is truly the bride of Christ, I will be led back to it according to the wisdom and order of the Lord. When I say I don't expect that to happen, it is because I don't see the LDS church, as it is currently organized, to be the bride of Christ. That could change if revelation led me to believe otherwise. I just don't expect that to happen.
I understand this perspective and it does make sense. You are saying, and I believe rightly so, that nothing short of a miracle would be required.
But, isn't this exactly what the Book of Revelation indicates where the woman is concerned?
How many other places do we see a polluted and/or adultress woman being cleansed and redeemed instead of condemned and punished.
Look at the Gospel of John where the woman, who would only be the man's wife, is brought to Jesus charged with adultery, caught in the very act.
Yet, what does Jesus do? Instead of condemning her, as the law would ordinarily require, instead she is forgiven and redeemed.
This is a type and a shadow for what happens when a covenant bride is delivered over to the buffetings of the adversary until the day of redemption comes. Yes, there is a period of suffering and a season of peril and tribulation, but that only lasts for so long before redemption comes. Such is the case for Eve and therefore such is also the case for the Church too.
Meili wrote:To me, there is no difference between being within or without the body of the "corporation sole" church, as Boo states.
I agree it isn't the corporation that is what you need to be in. The tangible covenant body I am talking about is distinct from that.

Put another way, just because the true Bride has Her assets transferred into a position of greater vulnerability to the government doesn't change the fact that beneath it is still the Bride of Christ.
Meili wrote:As I mentioned in my comments to him, it is about the individual heart.
Where people get into trouble is they think it is an either/or situation.
But, the truth of the matter is both are required.
You need your individual heart right and you also need to have valid ordinances performed by valid priesthood holders and have them properly recorded.
People don't realize it but it is Adam and Eve's responsibility to give all "creatures" their "names" and to totally "organize" (create) the whole next cycle of Creation to follow. When we talk about creating "worlds" we are not talking about new physical planets somewhere in the galaxy. What we are talking about are eternal families who are tied to a land of inheritance somewhere on this planet. Sealing together families for eternity in the temples is the very process of creation performed by the priesthood. This stuff all matters VERY MUCH and good feelings in your heart won't save our deceased ancestors. They need to have their ordinances and their names recorded in the "book of life" that we are the authors of through Melchizedek Priesthood authority. This is the creation of the register that defines the "measure of creation" for every soul who goes into the "world to come". It determines the parameters for all of the angelic beings who minister to those in the flesh when their turn on earth comes again. These records are of vital importance.
Meili wrote:If millions of people believe they are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints then the church exists. If they all become convinced, for whatever reason, that they are no longer members, then it will cease to exist. If all the members come to believe that the LDS church is merely a corporation sole and they've been taken for a ride, then the church will cease to exist. This is why I feel no fidelity to the church. I see it as something that could be dissolved.
The important thing is to see precisely how the Bride goes through all that She does to be proven out true and faithful in all things and ultimately ends up being exalted. This is why the endowment is the road map, our road map, to exaltation. When we see Eve as the covenant body of the Church we can then more accurately understand what all we must pass through before we reach that ultimate end. We as individuals need to understand our relationship to Christ's Bride and strive to both identify Her and to worthily be a member of this covenant body. And, if by some manner we find ourselves cast out unjustly we need to be careful to maintain a proper respect none-the-less and wait for the time that this injustice can be rectified. In some people's cases the pollution is so strong that they need to withdraw from participation for sake of their own personal spiritual health. This is why I don't judge someone being active, inactive, or cast out. There are worthy and valid saints in all of these categories. But, I do judge someone's attitude towards the church if they are disrespectful and dismissive beyond simply rendering constructive and objective criticism of it.
Meili wrote:But any individual, inside or outside of the church, could be convinced that they personally are Christ's, that they personally are wholly dedicated to him.
And they can use that notion as a means to rationalize their refusal to step up and help the Bride in Her time of peril.
The men who brought the woman to Christ caught in the act of adultery thought they loved God and were doing Him service too.
Meili wrote:Any individual can be so dedicated to Jesus Christ that they would fall down trembling in fear at the thought of doing anything against his will. And if a person is at that point, who can say that they are not His bride? They can only say in truthfulness, I believe, that at some time when the body of Christ's bride is healed and comes together in a perfected state, they will be within that body.
That is indeed the hope and if they are sincere in their devotion to Christ then they will be there.
Meili wrote:Please understand that you are not alone. You are taking an individual journey because all of us must individually come to Christ, but you are not alone in taking that journey. You are my brother.
Thank you. Your words warmed my heart. I needed that.
Meili wrote:I would love to hear anything that you would like to share about your understanding of Eve and how the church fits the pattern you have seen. While we don't see eye to eye on the church, I consider your insights inspired and have found them helpful on my spiritual journey before.
For me, when I came to discover this association, it completely opened up my ability to understand things so much better.
The endowment narrative finally made complete sense to me, especially how it tells us to consider ourselves as Adam and Eve.
It was kind of a "duh" experience where I came to see that the Lord has been telling us explicitly to take it this way all along.

So, now, instead of speculating on what Adam and Eve were 6,000 years ago, I can see them here and now in the flesh and learn first-hand.
Because of this discovery, I have been able to completely call everything I thought I knew into question and rebuild my view of everything.

It was a rather painful process because the implications of this is a real table-turning of seeing things in an entirely new light.
I had to dispense with some things that were just fantasies and this was a difficult process, but the truths uncovered made up for it.
Not only was I able to come to see Adam and Eve in the flesh, meaning flesh and bone, but also Cain, Abel and Seth as well.
I also came to see that with my eyes opened to see things on this level that much of latter-day prophecy is already behind us.
The Son of Man has already come and He has been rejected and turned into a man of sorrows and He is yet held in contempt.
But, I can see how in due time it will all be to the credit of the Son of Man that Adam and Eve are redeemed and obtain victory.

In short, I now see so much of what Joseph Smith Jr. was trying to lead people to understand in a crystal clear manner.
Brigham Young's deeper doctrinal things about Adam also came into an entirely new focus as well.
I experienced tapping into something that put the whole restoration and end times into a crystal clear focus.
I continue to make new discoveries every time I apply this template or blueprint that confirms the truthfulness of Joseph Smith's calling.

And, most of all, praise the Lord, it enabled me to snap out of the strong delusion that has so many mainstream LDS in very serious trouble.
But, it has also put me in a place where it seems people don't know what to do with me and my views so it is rather lonely too.
For the most part I just keep quiet about all of this, except with very close personal friends.

Not to mention, it also has given me a basis of knowledge to discern false prophets, such as Denver Snuffer, and many others.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by Rose Garden »

jwharton wrote:I didn't finish responding to parts of your post that I yet wanted to.
Meili wrote:To me, if I am faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ, then I cannot be unfaithful to his bride. I do expect that, as you stated, if the church is truly the bride of Christ, I will be led back to it according to the wisdom and order of the Lord. When I say I don't expect that to happen, it is because I don't see the LDS church, as it is currently organized, to be the bride of Christ. That could change if revelation led me to believe otherwise. I just don't expect that to happen.
I understand this perspective and it does make sense. You are saying, and I believe rightly so, that nothing short of a miracle would be required.
But, isn't this exactly what the Book of Revelation indicates where the woman is concerned?
How many other places do we see a polluted and/or adultress woman being cleansed and redeemed instead of condemned and punished.
Look at the Gospel of John where the woman, who would only be the man's wife, is brought to Jesus charged with adultery, caught in the very act.
Yet, what does Jesus do? Instead of condemning her, as the law would ordinarily require, instead she is forgiven and redeemed.
This is a type and a shadow for what happens when a covenant bride is delivered over to the buffetings of the adversary until the day of redemption comes. Yes, there is a period of suffering and a season of peril and tribulation, but that only lasts for so long before redemption comes. Such is the case for Eve and therefore such is also the case for the Church too.
Meili wrote:To me, there is no difference between being within or without the body of the "corporation sole" church, as Boo states.
I agree it isn't the corporation that is what you need to be in. The tangible covenant body I am talking about is distinct from that.

Put another way, just because the true Bride has Her assets transferred into a position of greater vulnerability to the government doesn't change the fact that beneath it is still the Bride of Christ.
Meili wrote:As I mentioned in my comments to him, it is about the individual heart.
Where people get into trouble is they think it is an either/or situation.
But, the truth of the matter is both are required.
You need your individual heart right and you also need to have valid ordinances performed by valid priesthood holders and have them properly recorded.
People don't realize it but it is Adam and Eve's responsibility to give all "creatures" their "names" and to totally "organize" (create) the whole next cycle of Creation to follow. When we talk about creating "worlds" we are not talking about new physical planets somewhere in the galaxy. What we are talking about are eternal families who are tied to a land of inheritance somewhere on this planet. Sealing together families for eternity in the temples is the very process of creation performed by the priesthood. This stuff all matters VERY MUCH and good feelings in your heart won't save our deceased ancestors. They need to have their ordinances and their names recorded in the "book of life" that we are the authors of through Melchizedek Priesthood authority. This is the creation of the register that defines the "measure of creation" for every soul who goes into the "world to come". It determines the parameters for all of the angelic beings who minister to those in the flesh when their turn on earth comes again. These records are of vital importance.
Meili wrote:If millions of people believe they are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints then the church exists. If they all become convinced, for whatever reason, that they are no longer members, then it will cease to exist. If all the members come to believe that the LDS church is merely a corporation sole and they've been taken for a ride, then the church will cease to exist. This is why I feel no fidelity to the church. I see it as something that could be dissolved.
The important thing is to see precisely how the Bride goes through all that She does to be proven out true and faithful in all things and ultimately ends up being exalted. This is why the endowment is the road map, our road map, to exaltation. When we see Eve as the covenant body of the Church we can then more accurately understand what all we must pass through before we reach that ultimate end. We as individuals need to understand our relationship to Christ's Bride and strive to both identify Her and to worthily be a member of this covenant body. And, if by some manner we find ourselves cast out unjustly we need to be careful to maintain a proper respect none-the-less and wait for the time that this injustice can be rectified. In some people's cases the pollution is so strong that they need to withdraw from participation for sake of their own personal spiritual health. This is why I don't judge someone being active, inactive, or cast out. There are worthy and valid saints in all of these categories. But, I do judge someone's attitude towards the church if they are disrespectful and dismissive beyond simply rendering constructive and objective criticism of it.
Meili wrote:But any individual, inside or outside of the church, could be convinced that they personally are Christ's, that they personally are wholly dedicated to him.
And they can use that notion as a means to rationalize their refusal to step up and help the Bride in Her time of peril.
The men who brought the woman to Christ caught in the act of adultery thought they loved God and were doing Him service too.
Meili wrote:Any individual can be so dedicated to Jesus Christ that they would fall down trembling in fear at the thought of doing anything against his will. And if a person is at that point, who can say that they are not His bride? They can only say in truthfulness, I believe, that at some time when the body of Christ's bride is healed and comes together in a perfected state, they will be within that body.
That is indeed the hope and if they are sincere in their devotion to Christ then they will be there.
Meili wrote:Please understand that you are not alone. You are taking an individual journey because all of us must individually come to Christ, but you are not alone in taking that journey. You are my brother.
Thank you. Your words warmed my heart. I needed that.
Meili wrote:I would love to hear anything that you would like to share about your understanding of Eve and how the church fits the pattern you have seen. While we don't see eye to eye on the church, I consider your insights inspired and have found them helpful on my spiritual journey before.
For me, when I came to discover this association, it completely opened up my ability to understand things so much better.
The endowment narrative finally made complete sense to me, especially how it tells us to consider ourselves as Adam and Eve.
It was kind of a "duh" experience where I came to see that the Lord has been telling us explicitly to take it this way all along.

So, now, instead of speculating on what Adam and Eve were 6,000 years ago, I can see them here and now in the flesh and learn first-hand.
Because of this discovery, I have been able to completely call everything I thought I knew into question and rebuild my view of everything.

It was a rather painful process because the implications of this is a real table-turning of seeing things in an entirely new light.
I had to dispense with some things that were just fantasies and this was a difficult process, but the truths uncovered made up for it.
Not only was I able to come to see Adam and Eve in the flesh, meaning flesh and bone, but also Cain, Abel and Seth as well.
I also came to see that with my eyes opened to see things on this level that much of latter-day prophecy is already behind us.
The Son of Man has already come and He has been rejected and turned into a man of sorrows and He is yet held in contempt.
But, I can see how in due time it will all be to the credit of the Son of Man that Adam and Eve are redeemed and obtain victory.

In short, I now see so much of what Joseph Smith Jr. was trying to lead people to understand in a crystal clear manner.
Brigham Young's deeper doctrinal things about Adam also came into an entirely new focus as well.
I experienced tapping into something that put the whole restoration and end times into a crystal clear focus.
I continue to make new discoveries every time I apply this template or blueprint that confirms the truthfulness of Joseph Smith's calling.

And, most of all, praise the Lord, it enabled me to snap out of the strong delusion that has so many mainstream LDS in very serious trouble.
But, it has also put me in a place where it seems people don't know what to do with me and my views so it is rather lonely too.
For the most part I just keep quiet about all of this, except with very close personal friends.

Not to mention, it also has given me a basis of knowledge to discern false prophets, such as Denver Snuffer, and many others.
I have had spiritual impressions that lead me to believe that the Lord is dispensing different spheres of knowledge to different people. In other words, he is creating "experts" in different areas. To one it is given to understand one area of knowledge and to another it is given to understand another. These people each understand one sphere of knowledge to a fascinating depth. But though the subjects are all different, the goal is all the same: to invite others to come unto Christ.

If you are ever willing, please feel free to share what you have learned privately. I can assure you that I will treat it with respect.

I understand what you are saying about ordinances and I assure you that I don't take ordinances lightly. My main difficulty at this time concerning ordinances is that I do not really understand them. I have actually dedicated this year to gaining a spiritual understanding of ordinances.

I desire to receive ordinances performed by authorized servants of the Lord. I am seeking this blessing with all my heart. I wish I could accept that the LDS Church has the authority and simply rely on the ordinances I have already received through the church, but I cannot.

As I read your words, Joseph Smith's dilemma came to mind when he was seeking truth. I feel exactly as he describes. I can't find the answers to my questions from men or even from the scriptures because everyone interprets them so differently. I have to rely on the Spirit to teach me, and yet I also know that I am susceptible to deceit. I find myself ever more dependent on the mercies of Christ. Since I find it so difficult to believe anything else, I hang my hopes this one thing: that Jesus will save me because I love him and am trying my best to follow him. I believe he is a loving God and cannot imagine that he would turn his back on me even if I make mistakes. He will redeem me!

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inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3286
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by inho »

Meili wrote:
boo wrote: J as a minor point to your analysis you recognize I trust that there is no direct and tangible body bearing the name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints . There is legally no such entity . It is at very most a registered trademark. The entity that owns the trademark is the Corporation of the President of the CoJCoLDS... That entity as I suppose you know is a corporation sole the SOLE member of which is Thomas Monson.. Your stirring language suffers from a failure to speak accurately.How is one to follow a trademark? How is one to follow a corporation which does not permit my membership ? I can follow a person but a trademark really?
Boo, there is such an entity. This is the point that I am trying to make. Can the existence of a corporation sole erase the impact of millions of people who call themselves members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Does not the fact that individual people believe with all their souls that they are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually mean that such a church exists? It is what is in the hearts of the individuals that matters.
The Church exists in peoples hearts, but also legally as unincorporated religious association:
However, all that property holding by corporations, for the Church, doesn’t mean that the Church fails to exist. The US Supreme Court has described LDS Church structure thus: “The CPB and the COP are religious entities associated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Church), an unincorporated religious association.” Corporation of the Presiding Bishop v. Amos, 483 U.S. 327 (1987)

(source: Guest Post: About That Corporation at http://www.keepapitchinin.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

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Rose Garden
Don't ask . . .
Posts: 7031
Contact:

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by Rose Garden »

inho wrote:
Meili wrote:
boo wrote: J as a minor point to your analysis you recognize I trust that there is no direct and tangible body bearing the name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints . There is legally no such entity . It is at very most a registered trademark. The entity that owns the trademark is the Corporation of the President of the CoJCoLDS... That entity as I suppose you know is a corporation sole the SOLE member of which is Thomas Monson.. Your stirring language suffers from a failure to speak accurately.How is one to follow a trademark? How is one to follow a corporation which does not permit my membership ? I can follow a person but a trademark really?
Boo, there is such an entity. This is the point that I am trying to make. Can the existence of a corporation sole erase the impact of millions of people who call themselves members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Does not the fact that individual people believe with all their souls that they are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually mean that such a church exists? It is what is in the hearts of the individuals that matters.
The Church exists in peoples hearts, but also legally as unincorporated religious association:
However, all that property holding by corporations, for the Church, doesn’t mean that the Church fails to exist. The US Supreme Court has described LDS Church structure thus: “The CPB and the COP are religious entities associated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Church), an unincorporated religious association.” Corporation of the Presiding Bishop v. Amos, 483 U.S. 327 (1987)

(source: Guest Post: About That Corporation at http://www.keepapitchinin.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Interesting.

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SpeedRacer
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1207
Location: Virginia, just outside of D.C.

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by SpeedRacer »

I am currently a member of the LDS church, but have been asked that if I attend meetings, to not speak anything that is not inline with the manual. This has led me to attend a church where there are not such restrictions.

I was thinking over this situation looking for a way to fix it when it came into my mind the life of Christ. When Christ attended the meetings of the Jews he listened to what was being said, but always used the scriptures to illustrate his point. He was often accused of violating the oral law, then referred the current priesthood leaders back to the scriptures that he had given them. However most of those leaders and the people preferred the oral law to the written law. The oral law told them exactly how to live and what to do, there was no need to go look into it.

I had relished the many talks by Joseph Fielding Smith, and other such early apostles and presidents that were emphatically stating that the scriptures are the standard of truth. They said that they, the leaders, were to be held to them, the scriptures, and that if their words did not align with the standard works their words were to be discarded. They knew they were fallible, and they knew the church had at one point been governed by the scriptures. They preferred the written law of God to the precepts of men. I served a mission in '92, and had written the McConkie quote "the truth of all things is measured by the scriptures" in the front.

In my lifetime, this changed. My parents who were once studious people quit studying. They preferred the oral law to the written law. I had quit studying. I preferred the oral law to the written law. God woke me up in 2010 and I started studying the word. Then as I studied the Lord revealed passages that were sitting right there in scripture to me. It changed my entire view of where I was at and what I was working toward.

I seek this Jesus. The spirit led me to read some books by Snuffer. It was odd to see what he said echoed the things that had been given to me. I attended some of the 40 years lectures, the spirit of the group was great. It has been a great experience to see where people have gone since those lectures.

I am currently in a refining process, praise God for His strength.

Zion has nothing to do with an earthly organization, Zion is a people of one heart and one mind like God. It is laid out in the Lectures on Faith. God has no desire to rule and reign over you, he wants you as His equal, he wants you to live the life He has because it is the way that brings the most joy, and sharing the joy is truly wonderful. The ancient role of King was to be the servant of all, that is why Christ is called the King of Kings. When you seek to nurture, succor and lift, you are serving in the role of a King/Queen. Then he will want to be your King.

The doctrine of faith, repentance, baptism leads you there.

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by jwharton »

SpeedRacer wrote:Zion has nothing to do with an earthly organization...
This is an example of how and why Denver Snuffer's influence is so damaging.
Somehow the net effect of his impact is to cause people to abandon building the Father's literal Kingdom here on earth.
SpeedRacer wrote:God has no desire to rule and reign over you
The whole purpose of the priesthood is to rule and reign, but in a manner that employs righteous dominion.
Adam was given dominion over all things and commanded to bring it into subjection to His rule.
His purpose for doing so was to bring just governance to the world and salvation to the righteous.
SpeedRacer wrote:he wants you as His equal
This is also a false and utterly arrogant fruit of Denver Snuffer's doctrine.
There is no single human being in flesh and blood that is going to be God's equal, ever.

Adam is in the image and likeness of the Eloheim and therefore both are composed of a plurality of individuals.
Our highest potential is to be a member of the body of Adam and then to stay in that body as it undergoes its trials.
Adam is currently being proven true and faithful in all things, including dealing with a polluted and wayward Bride.
In due time this covenant body (Adam) will ascend to become the Eloheim of the cycle of Creation He laid the foundation of.
But, before this happens, it needs to be purged of all of its dross, members that are polluting it with the precepts of men, etc.
We will not ever become an Eloheim in and of ourselves. This is only accomplished in connection with a covenant body.
And, this body will be established here on this earth as a distinct earthly organization that is in a covenant of unity.

In light of this, Denver's doctrine is one of the most horrible perversions of the restoration I have yet seen.

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Mark
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6929

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by Mark »

SpeedRacer wrote:I am currently a member of the LDS church, but have been asked that if I attend meetings, to not speak anything that is not inline with the manual. This has led me to attend a church where there are not such restrictions.

I was thinking over this situation looking for a way to fix it when it came into my mind the life of Christ. When Christ attended the meetings of the Jews he listened to what was being said, but always used the scriptures to illustrate his point. He was often accused of violating the oral law, then referred the current priesthood leaders back to the scriptures that he had given them. However most of those leaders and the people preferred the oral law to the written law. The oral law told them exactly how to live and what to do, there was no need to go look into it.

I had relished the many talks by Joseph Fielding Smith, and other such early apostles and presidents that were emphatically stating that the scriptures are the standard of truth. They said that they, the leaders, were to be held to them, the scriptures, and that if their words did not align with the standard works their words were to be discarded. They knew they were fallible, and they knew the church had at one point been governed by the scriptures. They preferred the written law of God to the precepts of men. I served a mission in '92, and had written the McConkie quote "the truth of all things is measured by the scriptures" in the front.

In my lifetime, this changed. My parents who were once studious people quit studying. They preferred the oral law to the written law. I had quit studying. I preferred the oral law to the written law. God woke me up in 2010 and I started studying the word. Then as I studied the Lord revealed passages that were sitting right there in scripture to me. It changed my entire view of where I was at and what I was working toward.

I seek this Jesus. The spirit led me to read some books by Snuffer. It was odd to see what he said echoed the things that had been given to me. I attended some of the 40 years lectures, the spirit of the group was great. It has been a great experience to see where people have gone since those lectures.

I am currently in a refining process, praise God for His strength.

Zion has nothing to do with an earthly organization, Zion is a people of one heart and one mind like God. It is laid out in the Lectures on Faith. God has no desire to rule and reign over you, he wants you as His equal, he wants you to live the life He has because it is the way that brings the most joy, and sharing the joy is truly wonderful. The ancient role of King was to be the servant of all, that is why Christ is called the King of Kings. When you seek to nurture, succor and lift, you are serving in the role of a King/Queen. Then he will want to be your King.

The doctrine of faith, repentance, baptism leads you there.

You need to read this blog brother. The doctrine of continual revelation through living oracles of God is absolutely critical to the success of this great latter day work of the Lord. Those who do not recognize or discount its importance in the kingdom will be misled one way or another. It happened in Josephs time and will continue today.

http://www.templestudy.com/2009/10/23/d ... evelation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

boo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1559
Location: Arizona

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by boo »

SpeedRacer wrote:I am currently a member of the LDS church, but have been asked that if I attend meetings, to not speak anything that is not inline with the manual. This has led me to attend a church where there are not such restrictions.

I was thinking over this situation looking for a way to fix it when it came into my mind the life of Christ. When Christ attended the meetings of the Jews he listened to what was being said, but always used the scriptures to illustrate his point. He was often accused of violating the oral law, then referred the current priesthood leaders back to the scriptures that he had given them. However most of those leaders and the people preferred the oral law to the written law. The oral law told them exactly how to live and what to do, there was no need to go look into it.

I had relished the many talks by Joseph Fielding Smith, and other such early apostles and presidents that were emphatically stating that the scriptures are the standard of truth. They said that they, the leaders, were to be held to them, the scriptures, and that if their words did not align with the standard works their words were to be discarded. They knew they were fallible, and they knew the church had at one point been governed by the scriptures. They preferred the written law of God to the precepts of men. I served a mission in '92, and had written the McConkie quote "the truth of all things is measured by the scriptures" in the front.

In my lifetime, this changed. My parents who were once studious people quit studying. They preferred the oral law to the written law. I had quit studying. I preferred the oral law to the written law. God woke me up in 2010 and I started studying the word. Then as I studied the Lord revealed passages that were sitting right there in scripture to me. It changed my entire view of where I was at and what I was working toward.

I seek this Jesus. The spirit led me to read some books by Snuffer. It was odd to see what he said echoed the things that had been given to me. I attended some of the 40 years lectures, the spirit of the group was great. It has been a great experience to see where people have gone since those lectures.

I am currently in a refining process, praise God for His strength.

Zion has nothing to do with an earthly organization, Zion is a people of one heart and one mind like God. It is laid out in the Lectures on Faith. God has no desire to rule and reign over you, he wants you as His equal, he wants you to live the life He has because it is the way that brings the most joy, and sharing the joy is truly wonderful. The ancient role of King was to be the servant of all, that is why Christ is called the King of Kings. When you seek to nurture, succor and lift, you are serving in the role of a King/Queen. Then he will want to be your King.

The doctrine of faith, repentance, baptism leads you there.
This is so interesting. It almost exactly parallels my own experience . In my library I have more than a thousand books on church doctrine and history. Once I thought when I had carefully read all of them I would qualify as a"gospel scholar" as Joseph Fielding Smith use to encourage. I recognize now that with a few important exceptions those volumes are generally the philosophies of men mingled with scriptures. It is the scptures that will bring us to the Savior not anything published by Deseret Book ( which T.Givens use to hold up as an example of priestcraft) . Thanks for your thoughts.

boo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1559
Location: Arizona

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by boo »

jwharton wrote:
SpeedRacer wrote:Zion has nothing to do with an earthly organization...
This is an example of how and why Denver Snuffer's influence is so damaging.
Somehow the net effect of his impact is to cause people to abandon building the Father's literal Kingdom here on earth.
SpeedRacer wrote:God has no desire to rule and reign over you
The whole purpose of the priesthood is to rule and reign, but in a manner that employs righteous dominion.
Adam was given dominion over all things and commanded to bring it into subjection to His rule.
His purpose for doing so was to bring just governance to the world and salvation to the righteous.
SpeedRacer wrote:he wants you as His equal
This is also a false and utterly arrogant fruit of Denver Snuffer's doctrine.
There is no single human being in flesh and blood that is going to be God's equal, ever.

Adam is in the image and likeness of the Eloheim and therefore both are composed of a plurality of individuals.
Our highest potential is to be a member of the body of Adam and then to stay in that body as it undergoes its trials.
Adam is currently being proven true and faithful in all things, including dealing with a polluted and wayward Bride.
In due time this covenant body (Adam) will ascend to become the Eloheim of the cycle of Creation He laid the foundation of.
But, before this happens, it needs to be purged of all of its dross, members that are polluting it with the precepts of men, etc.
We will not ever become an Eloheim in and of ourselves. This is only accomplished in connection with a covenant body.
And, this body will be established here on this earth as a distinct earthly organization that is in a covenant of unity.

In light of this, Denver's doctrine is one of the most horrible perversions of the restoration I have yet seen.
Do you teach this in your HP group? If so with what success ?

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shadow
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by shadow »

SpeedRacer wrote:
In my lifetime, this changed. My parents who were once studious people quit studying. They preferred the oral law to the written law. I had quit studying. I preferred the oral law to the written law. God woke me up in 2010 and I started studying the word. Then as I studied the Lord revealed passages that were sitting right there in scripture to me. It changed my entire view of where I was at and what I was working toward.
Sounds like you and your parents are the ones who changed and got lazy. That's your own fault. I've never been taught at church that I need not study anymore. I think you've created your own reasoning and justification for leaving the church. I'm always curious why people do that.
If they want to go inactive then go inactive, but don't make up lame excuses that it's the church's fault. What you claim is simply false. Don't believe your own lies.

From the Book of Mormon teachers manual for this year in Sunday School-


"Encourage class members to read the appropriate scripture block and study guide section before coming to class each week."


1.
Help class members understand what the scriptures teach about Jesus Christ. Ask them to consider how certain passages increase their faith in the Savior and help them feel His love.

2.
Ask class members to think of and share specific ways that a scripture passage can apply in their lives. Have them personalize the scriptures by mentally substituting their names in selected passages.

3.
In addition to teaching the doctrine, emphasize inspiring stories in the Book of Mormon. Ensure that class members understand the stories and discuss ways to apply them. Ask, “Why do you think this account was included in the Book of Mormon?” or “What can we learn from this story to help us be better followers of Christ?”

4.
Have class members look for words, phrases, or ideas that are repeated often in a scripture passage or that have special meaning for them.

5.
Encourage class members to use the study aids included at the end of the Latter-day Saint editions of the Bible and the Book of Mormon, such as the Topical Guide and Bible Dictionary for the Bible and the index for the Book of Mormon.

6.
Write on the chalkboard phrases, key words, or questions that relate to the scripture account. Then read or summarize the account. As class members hear the phrases, key words, or answers to the questions, stop and discuss them.

7.
Throughout the Book of Mormon, the phrase “thus we see” is used to introduce a summary of the principles taught (see, for example, Helaman 3:28). After reading a scripture passage, ask class members to explain the passage using the phrase “thus we see.”

8.
Look for and discuss symbols that are used in the Book of Mormon. For example, a strait and narrow path is often used to symbolize the gospel (see 2 Nephi 31:17–20; 33:9; Jacob 6:11; 3 Nephi 14:13–14; 27:33).

9.
Note how people or events in the scriptures can be contrasted or compared with each other. For example, you could contrast Laman and Lemuel with their brothers Nephi and Sam, or compare the Savior’s Sermon on the Mount as recorded in the New Testament with the account in 3 Nephi 12–14.

10.
Have class members dramatize scriptural stories by reading aloud the words of the different people in the stories. Ensure that dramatizations show proper respect for the scriptures.

11.
Divide the class into two or more small groups. After reviewing a scripture account, have each group write down the principles and doctrines taught in the account. Then have the groups take turns discussing how these teachings apply in their lives.

12.
Invite class members to bring pencils to mark significant verses as they discuss them.


All those things ^^ are to get members off their duffs to study the scriptures and apply them in their own lives.

e-eye2.0
captain of 100
Posts: 454

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by e-eye2.0 »

SpeedRacer wrote:I am currently a member of the LDS church, but have been asked that if I attend meetings, to not speak anything that is not inline with the manual. This has led me to attend a church where there are not such restrictions.

I was thinking over this situation looking for a way to fix it when it came into my mind the life of Christ. When Christ attended the meetings of the Jews he listened to what was being said, but always used the scriptures to illustrate his point. He was often accused of violating the oral law, then referred the current priesthood leaders back to the scriptures that he had given them. However most of those leaders and the people preferred the oral law to the written law. The oral law told them exactly how to live and what to do, there was no need to go look into it.

I had relished the many talks by Joseph Fielding Smith, and other such early apostles and presidents that were emphatically stating that the scriptures are the standard of truth. They said that they, the leaders, were to be held to them, the scriptures, and that if their words did not align with the standard works their words were to be discarded. They knew they were fallible, and they knew the church had at one point been governed by the scriptures. They preferred the written law of God to the precepts of men. I served a mission in '92, and had written the McConkie quote "the truth of all things is measured by the scriptures" in the front.

In my lifetime, this changed. My parents who were once studious people quit studying. They preferred the oral law to the written law. I had quit studying. I preferred the oral law to the written law. God woke me up in 2010 and I started studying the word. Then as I studied the Lord revealed passages that were sitting right there in scripture to me. It changed my entire view of where I was at and what I was working toward.

I seek this Jesus. The spirit led me to read some books by Snuffer. It was odd to see what he said echoed the things that had been given to me. I attended some of the 40 years lectures, the spirit of the group was great. It has been a great experience to see where people have gone since those lectures.

I am currently in a refining process, praise God for His strength.

Zion has nothing to do with an earthly organization, Zion is a people of one heart and one mind like God. It is laid out in the Lectures on Faith. God has no desire to rule and reign over you, he wants you as His equal, he wants you to live the life He has because it is the way that brings the most joy, and sharing the joy is truly wonderful. The ancient role of King was to be the servant of all, that is why Christ is called the King of Kings. When you seek to nurture, succor and lift, you are serving in the role of a King/Queen. Then he will want to be your King.

The doctrine of faith, repentance, baptism leads you there.
Boo - When Denver starts his official church will you be leaving the LDS church? I am just wondering if you will keep you name on the records just in case? Sad to see people leave the church but it has been prophesied.

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