Some LGBT Mormons Feel Like Outsiders In Their Own Church (HBO)

[LdsMarco]

John Dehlin says in 20 more years you can guarantee that we will have gay and lesbian Mormons married and singing in the Mormon tabernacle choir

[gardener4life]

So you think they will do a legal or other hostile takeover to push that to happen?

I want to understand you better on what you think on this. What do you think? Are you hoping to sort of warn against a danger or worried about helping them?

I do feel that all people are children of God. Some will wait in faith for help and others will try to force the issue before the Lord helps them. Some will let HIM in through the front door, but others won't. Others won't even notice he's knocking. I think there's some things that just can't be fixed in this life and that we have to wait them out...like the death of a spouse or family member and this condition may be similar to those. (And we didn't cause that condition in them but I hope they can be happy and at peace through Christ and receive empathy. But I won't just throw out the rules for anyone with a sad story.)

I have been worried about the of them pushing it on everyone else like how gay marriage was pushed and accepted everywhere when they could have just gone to another state to get married. And they are changing and pushing big changes in elementary school curriculum in a lot of states too (not just middle schools and high schools. So in a lot of ways they are very hostile in how they are pushing it onto everyone else.)

[BeNotDeceived]

John Dehlin says in 20 more years you can guarantee that we will have gay and lesbian Mormons married and singing in the Mormon tabernacle choir

He's right

A trans guy marries a trans girl and biologically they are hetrosexual.

Sometimes two wrongs, do make a right.

[PressingForward]

Dehlin is an apostate. The Church will be in apostasy if they ever accept Gay marriage. Nothing more need be said.

[LdsMarco]

So you think they will do a legal or other hostile takeover to push that to happen?

Just be happy Hillary Clinton isn't president and if anyone like her does become one - then yes, we have a serious problem

[tdj]

Eventually, and it WILL happen, someone like Obama or worse will give the ultimatum to the lds church that either they perform same sex weddings in the temple or risk lawsuits, or possibly arrests. The church leaders will either have to comply, or shut the temple doors. It's also possible the govt. could try and confiscate the temples. The question is what kind of stuff are our leaders made of? On that day, we'll KNOW.

[gkearney]

Well first up there are likely already gays in the Tabernacle Choir, just as there are gays in many other aspect of Church life.

As to marriage of the same in the temple. I think the threat of this is way overblown. Even if the government could by some means force the church to do them the church has a simple and effective out. We simply no longer perform marriages, either in the temple or in our church buildings. Then we only perform sealings, not marriages and the problem goes away.

I would point out that the Church has temples all over the world and in many countries where same sex marriage has been legal in some cases for quite some time. Nowhere has the church ever been forced to perform marriages of gay or been forced to perform marriages against it will in any venue temple or not.

[Michelle]

Well first up there are likely already gay in the Tabernacle Choir, just as there are gay in many other aspect of Church life.

As to marriage of the same in the temple. I think the threat of this is way overblown. Even if the government could by some means force the church to do them the church has a simple and effective out. We simply no longer perform marriages, either in the temple or in our church buildings. Then we only perform sealings, not marriages and the problem goes away.

I would point out that the Church has temples all over the world and in many countries where same sex marriage has been legal in some cases for quite some time. Nowhere has the church ever been forced to perform marriages of gay or been forced to perform marriages against it will in any venue temple or not.

I agree. The temple will only be for sealings if the issue is forced. Just like if you want to exchange rings, they have you step aside from the altar. It is not part of the sealing ceremony.

[oneClimbs]

I wonder if "gay" will be a thing in the coming years. It used to be that you had straight and gay, you were either hard-wired and attracted to the opposite sex or not, it seemed black and white. Nowadays sexuality or attraction is preached as a "spectrum" so if nobody is really truly "straight" then is anyone truly "gay?" While some might abide in one particular aspect of that spectrum more than others, I think the entire movement will come to see that there is a choice in the matter.

For instance, all human beings are driven by a spectrum of attractions across a variety of topics. People like different colors, different foods, different activities, etc. It should come as no surprise that some people have different sexual desires. But like everything else, we must look at what God has ordained for us and then make a decision whether or not we will sacrifice our own desires for a greater purpose and ultimately eternal happiness rather than our own mortal desires.

The church is teaching everything it knows about God's will for us. We don't know everything yet, but we do have a path in front of us and that path reflects a pattern that goes back to Genesis. A man leaves his father and mother and cleaves unto his wife and they become one flesh. One may diverge from that at their own risk but this is what is known and there is a historical precedent going back to creation. This is a big challenge for some people, but marriage in and of itself is as well, so is parenting, serving missions, giving up careers to raise a family, tithing, repentance, faith, service, and forgiveness. To take a person's sexual preferences and raise them up as a challenge that surpasses all other things is false. Every individual has their own Abrahamic test, to trust God so much that they would give up the one thing they don't think they ever could for something greater.

[David13]

My understanding is that there are already homos in the choir. Which taints my desire to even look at the choir. I look away, and just listen to the music.

I didn't watch the video. I really have no desire to watch it.

As to the title. Feel like outsiders in their own church.
Maybe it's just simply that they are in the wrong church. This isn't a church of unrepentant sinners, it's of repentant sinners. And what you have here are people who have distorted things where they don't think they have anything to repent for.

There are churches out there who would I'm sure accommodate their perversions. Celebrate their sins, take pride in their sins. Maybe that's their church. Maybe they left this church and don't know it.

The Catholic church, for instance. There are those who have said that this perverted Pope they have now will be the one who will bring homosexual marriage into the church.

All the Catholics I know who hear that, or think that will be the case, are horrified, and insist it will never happen. But if you watch that Pope, that's the course he's on.
dc

[tdj]

My understanding is that there are already homos in the choir. Which taints my desire to even look at the choir. I look away, and just listen to the music.

I didn't watch the video. I really have no desire to watch it.

As to the title. Feel like outsiders in their own church.
Maybe it's just simply that they are in the wrong church. This isn't a church of unrepentant sinners, it's of repentant sinners. And what you have here are people who have distorted things where they don't think they have anything to repent for.

There are churches out there who would I'm sure accommodate their perversions. Celebrate their sins, take pride in their sins. Maybe that's their church. Maybe they left this church and don't know it.

The Catholic church, for instance. There are those who have said that this perverted Pope they have now will be the one who will bring homosexual marriage into the church.

All the Catholics I know who hear that, or think that will be the case, are horrified, and insist it will never happen. But if you watch that Pope, that's the course he's on.
dc

I'm not convinced they have anything to repent OF, if they haven't acted on the homosexual feelings. If you have urges, but pray about them and struggle not to give into them, then what more can anyone possibly ask? I can't even imagine being in a position where in order to be right with God or the church I attend, I can never hope to marry the types of people I am sexually attracted too, or get involved with them in any way. When you're straight, you have the chance to marry someone you are genuinely sexually attracted too, but to never have that opportunity and know you never CAN must be difficult.

[gkearney]

My understanding is that there are already homos in the choir. Which taints my desire to even look at the choir. I look away, and just listen to the music.

Life must be tough for you. How do you ever manage going to Church knowing there are gays there? Yes there are homosexuals in your ward why they could even be sitting right next to you and your family in sacrament meeting. Or going out and about any place where everywhere where you look there might be homosexuals?

[David13]

My understanding is that there are already homos in the choir. Which taints my desire to even look at the choir. I look away, and just listen to the music.

Life must be tough for you. How do you ever manage going to Church knowing there are gays there? Yes there are homosexuals in your ward why they could even be sitting right next to you and your family in sacrament meeting. Or going out and about any place where everywhere where you look there might be homosexuals?

No, Charlie, not so at all.
dc

[David13]

My understanding is that there are already homos in the choir. Which taints my desire to even look at the choir. I look away, and just listen to the music.

I didn't watch the video. I really have no desire to watch it.

As to the title. Feel like outsiders in their own church.
Maybe it's just simply that they are in the wrong church. This isn't a church of unrepentant sinners, it's of repentant sinners. And what you have here are people who have distorted things where they don't think they have anything to repent for.

There are churches out there who would I'm sure accommodate their perversions. Celebrate their sins, take pride in their sins. Maybe that's their church. Maybe they left this church and don't know it.

The Catholic church, for instance. There are those who have said that this perverted Pope they have now will be the one who will bring homosexual marriage into the church.

All the Catholics I know who hear that, or think that will be the case, are horrified, and insist it will never happen. But if you watch that Pope, that's the course he's on.
dc

I'm not convinced they have anything to repent OF, if they haven't acted on the homosexual feelings. If you have urges, but pray about them and struggle not to give into them, then what more can anyone possibly ask? I can't even imagine being in a position where in order to be right with God or the church I attend, I can never hope to marry the types of people I am sexually attracted too, or get involved with them in any way. When you're straight, you have the chance to marry someone you are genuinely sexually attracted too, but to never have that opportunity and know you never CAN must be difficult.

Some people are attracted to children. Some to animals. What next.
dc

[Robin Hood]

Some LBGT Mormons feel like outsiders in the church?

Good.

[inho]

I'm not convinced they have anything to repent OF, if they haven't acted on the homosexual feelings. If you have urges, but pray about them and struggle not to give into them, then what more can anyone possibly ask? I can't even imagine being in a position where in order to be right with God or the church I attend, I can never hope to marry the types of people I am sexually attracted too, or get involved with them in any way. When you're straight, you have the chance to marry someone you are genuinely sexually attracted too, but to never have that opportunity and know you never CAN must be difficult.

Some people are attracted to children. Some to animals. What next.
dc

Even they are children of our Father in Heaven and are welcome to the church as long as they don't act on those attractions. As tdj said: "If you have [sinful] urges, but pray about them and struggle not to give into them, then what more can anyone possibly ask?" If they are unable to control themselves, we certainly need to take measures to protect the innocence. Yet we keep loving them and wish their best. Obviously, if one yields to some sinful urges, there needs to be legal consequences and one needs to submit to those legal actions. Yet if their will is to come to Christ, we should support them on their struggle.

[David13]

I'm not convinced they have anything to repent OF, if they haven't acted on the homosexual feelings. If you have urges, but pray about them and struggle not to give into them, then what more can anyone possibly ask? I can't even imagine being in a position where in order to be right with God or the church I attend, I can never hope to marry the types of people I am sexually attracted too, or get involved with them in any way. When you're straight, you have the chance to marry someone you are genuinely sexually attracted too, but to never have that opportunity and know you never CAN must be difficult.

Some people are attracted to children. Some to animals. What next.
dc

Even they are children of our Father in Heaven and are welcome to the church as long as they don't act on those attractions. As tdj said: "If you have [sinful] urges, but pray about them and struggle not to give into them, then what more can anyone possibly ask?" If they are unable to control themselves, we certainly need to take measures to protect the innocence. Yet we keep loving them and wish their best. Obviously, if one yields to some sinful urges, there needs to be legal consequences and one needs to submit to those legal actions. Yet if their will is to come to Christ, we should support them on their struggle.

That's pure nonsense.

Why do you think the homos have homo pride parades? Because they are NOT going to act on their impulse, or because they don't think it's a sin, and they think that it's perfectly ok in the eyes of God (which we know it isn't) and that they must make it ok in your eyes, that they think they have the right to prevent you from believing it is sin?

And that they have the right to force you to 'celebrate' their homo marriage in the Temple? Which do you think it is?

(And, so you understand: RHETORICAL QUESTION.)
dc

[inho]

I'm not convinced they have anything to repent OF, if they haven't acted on the homosexual feelings. If you have urges, but pray about them and struggle not to give into them, then what more can anyone possibly ask? I can't even imagine being in a position where in order to be right with God or the church I attend, I can never hope to marry the types of people I am sexually attracted too, or get involved with them in any way. When you're straight, you have the chance to marry someone you are genuinely sexually attracted too, but to never have that opportunity and know you never CAN must be difficult.

Some people are attracted to children. Some to animals. What next.
dc

Even they are children of our Father in Heaven and are welcome to the church as long as they don't act on those attractions. As tdj said: "If you have [sinful] urges, but pray about them and struggle not to give into them, then what more can anyone possibly ask?" If they are unable to control themselves, we certainly need to take measures to protect the innocence. Yet we keep loving them and wish their best. Obviously, if one yields to some sinful urges, there needs to be legal consequences and one needs to submit to those legal actions. Yet if their will is to come to Christ, we should support them on their struggle.

That's pure nonsense.

Why do you think the homos have homo pride parades? Because they are NOT going to act on their impulse, or because they don't think it's a sin, and they think that it's perfectly ok in the eyes of God (which we know it isn't) and that they must make it ok in your eyes, that they think they have the right to prevent you from believing it is sin?

And that they have the right to force you to 'celebrate' their homo marriage in the Temple? Which do you think it is?

(And, so you understand: RHETORICAL QUESTION.)
dc

Well that was nonsense.

Homo pride parades have nothing to do with the LGBT Mormons who feel like outsiders in the church.

[David13]

Some people are attracted to children. Some to animals. What next.
dc

Even they are children of our Father in Heaven and are welcome to the church as long as they don't act on those attractions. As tdj said: "If you have [sinful] urges, but pray about them and struggle not to give into them, then what more can anyone possibly ask?" If they are unable to control themselves, we certainly need to take measures to protect the innocence. Yet we keep loving them and wish their best. Obviously, if one yields to some sinful urges, there needs to be legal consequences and one needs to submit to those legal actions. Yet if their will is to come to Christ, we should support them on their struggle.

That's pure nonsense.

Why do you think the homos have homo pride parades? Because they are NOT going to act on their impulse, or because they don't think it's a sin, and they think that it's perfectly ok in the eyes of God (which we know it isn't) and that they must make it ok in your eyes, that they think they have the right to prevent you from believing it is sin?

And that they have the right to force you to 'celebrate' their homo marriage in the Temple? Which do you think it is?

(And, so you understand: RHETORICAL QUESTION.)
dc

Well that was nonsense.

Homo pride parades have nothing to do with the LGBT Mormons who feel like outsiders in the church.

Peas in a pod.
dc

Either a person is repentant, or they are not. It's not kinda sorta.

[inho]

If a member of a church has homosexual urges, but never acts on them and prays and does all (s)he can to be like Christ, is that person repentant or unrepentant?

[David13]

Apologizing for homosexuality does not make it not a sin.
They have an agenda.
Maybe you just don't understand the agenda. They do, and they follow the agenda.

What if your grandmother had wings? Could she fly?
dc

[LeastDisplayOfMind]

Remember, "there are no homosexual members of the church."

I sympathize with members experiencing same-sex attraction. Must be tough. But we all must put discipleship before our sexual desires. I pray that more LGBT folks will choose the path of righteousness and accept God's grace.

[simpleton]

What would it be like if this was applied today in church and/or at all times.....

Moroni 6:

1 And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.

2 Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.

3 And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.

4 And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.

5 And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls.

6 And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus.

7 And they were strict to observe that there should be no iniquity among them; and whoso was found to commit iniquity, and three witnesses of the church did condemn them before the elders, and if they repented not, and confessed not, their names were blotted out, and they were not numbered among the people of Christ.

8 But as oft as they repented and sought forgiveness, with real intent, they were forgiven.

9 And their meetings were conducted by the church after the manner of the workings of the Spirit, and by the power of the Holy Ghost; for as the power of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach, or to exhort, or to pray, or to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done.

[drtanner]

Not sure why some members have a hard time distinguishing between same sex attraction and acting on those feelings (which would include thoughts). If you have those feelings but do not entertain them, turn to Christ with your whole heart and choose a life consistent with his covenants and commandments, I applaud you, in fact with a standing ovation.

I wonder of those that would cast stones at these people are they attracted to other heterosexual people or images other than their spouse?? Have they ever entertained those thoughts or not looked away when they should have. They are just as guilty, should we cast them out of the church and belittle them for there own guilty attractions?

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[drtanner]

I'm not convinced they have anything to repent OF, if they haven't acted on the homosexual feelings. If you have urges, but pray about them and struggle not to give into them, then what more can anyone possibly ask? I can't even imagine being in a position where in order to be right with God or the church I attend, I can never hope to marry the types of people I am sexually attracted too, or get involved with them in any way. When you're straight, you have the chance to marry someone you are genuinely sexually attracted too, but to never have that opportunity and know you never CAN must be difficult.

Some people are attracted to children. Some to animals. What next.
dc

Even they are children of our Father in Heaven and are welcome to the church as long as they don't act on those attractions. As tdj said: "If you have [sinful] urges, but pray about them and struggle not to give into them, then what more can anyone possibly ask?" If they are unable to control themselves, we certainly need to take measures to protect the innocence. Yet we keep loving them and wish their best. Obviously, if one yields to some sinful urges, there needs to be legal consequences and one needs to submit to those legal actions. Yet if their will is to come to Christ, we should support them on their struggle.

That's pure nonsense.

Why do you think the homos have homo pride parades? Because they are NOT going to act on their impulse, or because they don't think it's a sin, and they think that it's perfectly ok in the eyes of God (which we know it isn't) and that they must make it ok in your eyes, that they think they have the right to prevent you from believing it is sin?

And that they have the right to force you to 'celebrate' their homo marriage in the Temple? Which do you think it is?

(And, so you understand: RHETORICAL QUESTION.)
dc

There are two groups here. The LGBT that would fight for unlawful rights to be infringed on others, and true followers of Christ who are doing everything there power not to act on same sex attractions and living in 100% accordance with the commandments of God. Let’s not chase the latter group out of the church, the very group that may help us preserve these rights, fight our religious freedom battles, and most importantly help others in the other camp come to Christ.