exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

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Doug
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:05 pm

Robin Hood,
Moses 6
59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
What does this scripture mean to you? Does it mean that we can have Eternal Life (meaning the life that God lives, Eternal is one of his names) and live in Eternal Glory (the same Glory God has, Eternal is one of his names)?
D&C 19
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

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Robin Hood
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:47 pm

brlenox wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:21 pm
Robin Hood wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:05 am
brlenox wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:05 am
Robin Hood wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:19 pm

It is very important not to build our doctrine on something Lucifer said to Eve, or to anyone else. He is a liar and has been from the very beginning. His statements are of no value to us, do not edify, and are calculated to confuse and deceive.
I am under no obligation to believe a word he speaks and refuse to give him any credibility regarding this or any other matter.
What verses are you referencing that define Satan as the origin of the doctrine that we can be as God?
I'm not.
It's in the title of the thread.
Let me restate for clarity, You state that "It is very important not to build our doctrine on something Lucifer said to Eve" and you stated "His statements are of no value to us" and finally you opined that you are "under no obligation to believe a word he speaks".

My inquiry is, what scriptural sources have you used to define what "Lucifer said to Eve" where are "His statements" that you consider "of no value to us" and where is recorded the "word he speaks" that has to do with Satan making claims that man has the potential to become as God (capitol "G")?

Before I can engage your thoughts I would like to know from wince they originate so that I can read, and study them out if necessary and then intelligently converse on your perspectives.
"God was a man like you (serpent to Eve)" is the title of this thread.
"Thou shalt not surely die" is one example of his lying tongue from the scriptures. Last time I checked Eve is dead and so are her sons and daughters.
Then we have that ridiculous threat in the temple endowment presentation about living up to every covenant or we'll be in his power. Who does he think he is! Why should we take his threat seriously when we know he is the father of lies and was a liar from the very beginning?
Not only that, but nobody keeps the covenants they make in the temple 100%. Are we in his power? Clearly not, so he is once again exposed as a bare-faced liar (which is why I believe that is in the presentation).

We know his is a liar but we choose to believe him when he says we can become as God if we take the fruit.
Really? I've not noticed my omnipotence of late, nor my omnipresence. I can't see into the future or the past, I can't read people's thoughts, do much more than one thing at a time, create anything..... the list goes on.
So when Lucifer rocks up in the garden and tells Eve that if she takes the fruit she won't die and will be as God, he was clearly deceiving her.
Why put any faith in the words of a known habitual liar?

So if we discount the claim made by Lucifer regarding our Godhood, where do we find it in the scriptures?

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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:54 pm

Robin Hood wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:47 pm

"God was a man like you (serpent to Eve)" is the title of this thread.
"Thou shalt not surely die" is one example of his lying tongue from the scriptures. Last time I checked Eve is dead and so are her sons and daughters.
Then we have that ridiculous threat in the temple endowment presentation about living up to every covenant or we'll be in his power. Who does he think he is! Why should we take his threat seriously when we know he is the father of lies and was a liar from the very beginning?
Not only that, but nobody keeps the covenants they make in the temple 100%. Are we in his power? Clearly not, so he is once again exposed as a bare-faced liar (which is why I believe that is in the presentation).

We know his is a liar but we choose to believe him when he says we can become as God if we take the fruit.
Really? I've not noticed my omnipotence of late, nor my omnipresence. I can't see into the future or the past, I can't read people's thoughts, do much more than one thing at a time, create anything..... the list goes on.
So when Lucifer rocks up in the garden and tells Eve that if she takes the fruit she won't die and will be as God, he was clearly deceiving her.
Why put any faith in the words of a known habitual liar?

So if we discount the claim made by Lucifer regarding our Godhood, where do we find it in the scriptures?
Very interesting! Certainly not everything the adversary says is a lie, but I never thought of that line quite like that before. Thank you.
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:57 pm

Robin Hood wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:47 pm
brlenox wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:21 pm
Robin Hood wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:05 am
brlenox wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:05 am


What verses are you referencing that define Satan as the origin of the doctrine that we can be as God?
I'm not.
It's in the title of the thread.
Let me restate for clarity, You state that "It is very important not to build our doctrine on something Lucifer said to Eve" and you stated "His statements are of no value to us" and finally you opined that you are "under no obligation to believe a word he speaks".

My inquiry is, what scriptural sources have you used to define what "Lucifer said to Eve" where are "His statements" that you consider "of no value to us" and where is recorded the "word he speaks" that has to do with Satan making claims that man has the potential to become as God (capitol "G")?

Before I can engage your thoughts I would like to know from wince they originate so that I can read, and study them out if necessary and then intelligently converse on your perspectives.
"God was a man like you (serpent to Eve)" is the title of this thread.
"Thou shalt not surely die" is one example of his lying tongue from the scriptures. Last time I checked Eve is dead and so are her sons and daughters.
Then we have that ridiculous threat in the temple endowment presentation about living up to every covenant or we'll be in his power. Who does he think he is! Why should we take his threat seriously when we know he is the father of lies and was a liar from the very beginning?
Not only that, but nobody keeps the covenants they make in the temple 100%. Are we in his power? Clearly not, so he is once again exposed as a bare-faced liar (which is why I believe that is in the presentation).

We know his is a liar but we choose to believe him when he says we can become as God if we take the fruit.
Really? I've not noticed my omnipotence of late, nor my omnipresence. I can't see into the future or the past, I can't read people's thoughts, do much more than one thing at a time, create anything..... the list goes on.
So when Lucifer rocks up in the garden and tells Eve that if she takes the fruit she won't die and will be as God, he was clearly deceiving her.
Why put any faith in the words of a known habitual liar?

So if we discount the claim made by Lucifer regarding our Godhood, where do we find it in the scriptures?
I am looking for your sources particularly as that, in my supposition, is what informs your opinion.

From what you have responded with so far I can't make the conclusions that you actually have any sources that I can refer to.

Above in your response I can find nothing that references anything where Satan has Claimed to Eve or otherwise that we shall be as "God" with the big "G".
Robin Hood wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:10 pm
We don't become God's.
According to scripture we become god's. I believe there is great significance in the deliberate use of the lower case "g".
What I do find is in direct opposition to this observation you made above. Your point is we do not become "God"s and you indicate this is a teaching of Satan.

You further sustain that you believe we are "gods" with a little "g" and this is the scripturally supported acknowledgment of our potential.

However, in the following verses we will note that Satan makes no such claim:
Moses 4:11
11 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:15
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
As best as I can tell these are possibly the verses you at referring to but they do not support your conclusion. In fact using your observation that what Satan says is a lie then we are not even "gods" with a little "g" which you claim is what you are comfortable with. However, this is the designation that Satan gave to Eve that you accept.

Now there is at least one scriptural source that does use the big "G" designation. This is the observation that Alma makes concerning the very same event of man becoming as the "God" of the big "G" after partaking of the fruit. Please note:
Alma 42:3

3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit-
Alma being a prophet, and this being a scriptural source and based on all of your exact words cited above, I am wondering if Alma's choice of "God" and not "god" is of any meaning to you? Does it lead to any potential for a reconsidering on this subject?

To be clear, I am not saying we are not "gods" as well, even though Satan designates us such, however is there any potential that some might be potentially "Gods" as Alma indicates? - conditionally of course. It is scriptural after all.

There is much more we can discuss concerning this doctrine but it is not of merit to discuss unless perhaps you note cause to reconsider your stance from the observations above.

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Doug
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:35 pm

Robin Hood,
You are operating under one of the greatest fallacies of Satan,
The fallacy,
Satan lies, therefore he is a liar.
Satan is a liar, therefore everything he says is a lie.

Satan teaches many truths to loll us into one lie.
Also, so that we will reject some truths.

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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:20 pm

Doug wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:35 pm
Robin Hood,
You are operating under one of the greatest fallacies of Satan,
The fallacy,
Satan lies, therefore he is a liar.
Satan is a liar, therefore everything he says is a lie.

Satan teaches many truths to loll us into one lie.
Also, so that we will reject some truths.
You misjudge my position.
I am saying that we cannot trust Lucifers word if it is the only scriptural source. There has to be corroberating evidence; and there isn't.
We are under no obligation to accept anything he says; indeed there is great danger when we attempt to filter his twisted truth from his calculated error.

Those who have maintained their position on this issue have yet to provide a single evidential scriptural source for the their belief that we can become God. Instead, I am repeatedly asked, in effect, to prove a negative.

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Doug
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:31 pm

Robin Hood wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:20 pm
Doug wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:35 pm
Robin Hood,
You are operating under one of the greatest fallacies of Satan,
The fallacy,
Satan lies, therefore he is a liar.
Satan is a liar, therefore everything he says is a lie.

Satan teaches many truths to loll us into one lie.
Also, so that we will reject some truths.
You misjudge my position.
I am saying that we cannot trust Lucifers word if it is the only scriptural source. There has to be corroberating evidence; and there isn't.
We are under no obligation to accept anything he says; indeed there is great danger when we attempt to filter his twisted truth from his calculated error.

Those who have maintained their position on this issue have yet to provide a single evidential scriptural source for the their belief that we can become God. Instead, I am repeatedly asked, in effect, to prove a negative.
But when some is presented, you just ignore it
Postby Doug » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:05 pm

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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:06 am

Doug wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:31 pm
Robin Hood wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:20 pm
Doug wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:35 pm
Robin Hood,
You are operating under one of the greatest fallacies of Satan,
The fallacy,
Satan lies, therefore he is a liar.
Satan is a liar, therefore everything he says is a lie.

Satan teaches many truths to loll us into one lie.
Also, so that we will reject some truths.
You misjudge my position.
I am saying that we cannot trust Lucifers word if it is the only scriptural source. There has to be corroberating evidence; and there isn't.
We are under no obligation to accept anything he says; indeed there is great danger when we attempt to filter his twisted truth from his calculated error.

Those who have maintained their position on this issue have yet to provide a single evidential scriptural source for the their belief that we can become God. Instead, I am repeatedly asked, in effect, to prove a negative.
But when some is presented, you just ignore it
Postby Doug » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:05 pm
I don't ignore it.
It's just that nothing has been presented.

Let's just make sure we understand the issue here.
It is maintained by some that we are destined to become God. Not just a god in the biblical, C.S. Lewis kind of sense ("ye are gods"), but God in the almighty, omnipotent, omnipresent, creative sense. We are to be prayed to and worshipped, and we are to have billions of spirit children etc.
I think we can agree that this is what the belief held by many in the church and on this forum amounts to.

Now, it is my claim that this view is not supported by scripture.
In this respect it appears my claim is likely correct as no scriptural evidence, despite repeated protestations that it exists, has been presented.

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Doug
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:15 am

That is what Moses said, and it is in the scripture I presented.

Eternal Life is God's life.
Eternal Life to to have spirit children and to provide for them
What more do you want to be told?

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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:17 am

Doug wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:05 pm
Robin Hood,
Moses 6
59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
What does this scripture mean to you? Does it mean that we can have Eternal Life (meaning the life that God lives, Eternal is one of his names) and live in Eternal Glory (the same Glory God has, Eternal is one of his names)?
D&C 19
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.
I think I must have missed your post.
We have to link the "words of eternal life" with actual "eternal life". One cannot be substantially different from the other.
The words of eternal life are contained in the scriptures. Therefore, what Moses is saying here is that the promises made in the scriptures will be kept.
So the issue is, what are those promises?
Are they omnipotence? Are they fathering/mothering billions? Are they creating universes? Do they specify that we will be prayed to and worshipped etc?

It isn't good enough to hide behind a concept of what eternal life probably is, and then pass this off as church doctrine. Like I said earlier, even the church is now backing off from this and claiming our aim is to be like God, rather than to be God; a subtle but significant difference.

You ask "What does this scripture mean to you? Does it mean that we can have Eternal Life (meaning the life that God lives...?"
This gets to the crux of the matter. You are making a significant and, in my view unjustified assumption, that eternal life for us means "the life that God lives".
In my view it is really important that we don't fill in the gaps by putting our own spin on scripture.
The truth is we do not know what eternal life will be like for us.

But it is clear from scripture that God is the self-existent one. He relies on no one, nor is he subject to any other being. He rules absolutely and his right to reign is unquestioned. (One guy challenged God once, but it didn't end well for him and he has been pretty miffed ever since)

The scriptures do not say we will live that life.

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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:36 am

Robin Hood wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:17 am
Doug wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:05 pm
Robin Hood,
Moses 6
59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
What does this scripture mean to you? Does it mean that we can have Eternal Life (meaning the life that God lives, Eternal is one of his names) and live in Eternal Glory (the same Glory God has, Eternal is one of his names)?
D&C 19
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.
I think I must have missed your post.
We have to link the "words of eternal life" with actual "eternal life". One cannot be substantially different from the other.
The words of eternal life are contained in the scriptures. Therefore, what Moses is saying here is that the promises made in the scriptures will be kept.
I am not sure if I agree with Robin Hood about the "words of eternal life" being a reference to the scriptures here.

However, I agree with Robin that there is no clear passage of scripture that would say that we would become exactly like God and do the same things as He has done.
All the scriptures relating to this issue may be interpreted in several ways. For example, Doug interprets that having eternal life means that we can have exactly the same kind of life as God (whose name is Eternal). Does that mean that if we have Eternal punishment, we will have a punishment which is exactly the same kind of punishment God is experiencing? Of course it does not mean that. Eternal punishment is a punishment given by God. Similarly, eternal life is a life given by God. Does it mean that this life is exactly similar to the life God himself is living? The scriptures do not say that. Some interpret this and other scriptures that way, but looking at the scriptures at the face value, that is not the only possible interpretation.

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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:36 am

There is none so blind as those who will not see.

It seems that you will only accept very specific text telling you something.
Gods are not the singular independent being that you say, they always come in groups, usually three.

I gave you moses, it says that we are to become Gods.
I can give you more, but you will not accept that.

But there are other writings that that are a little less subtle, the writings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, ...
They will tell you things that are not in the scriptures.
They will explain things that are in the scriptures.
But they may also say things that you just can't handle.
But none of these will help you if you just deny what they say.

What is the real issue? Do you just not want to be a God. Are you afraid to be a God? Do you lake the confidence that you can become a God?
It isn't that the scriptures don't say it, they do.
It isn't that you've not seen it, you have.

So what is it really.

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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:05 am

Doug wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:36 am
There is none so blind as those who will not see.

It seems that you will only accept very specific text telling you something.
Gods are not the singular independent being that you say, they always come in groups, usually three.

I gave you moses, it says that we are to become Gods.
I can give you more, but you will not accept that.

But there are other writings that that are a little less subtle, the writings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, ...
They will tell you things that are not in the scriptures.
They will explain things that are in the scriptures.
But they may also say things that you just can't handle.
But none of these will help you if you just deny what they say.

What is the real issue? Do you just not want to be a God. Are you afraid to be a God? Do you lake the confidence that you can become a God?
It isn't that the scriptures don't say it, they do.
It isn't that you've not seen it, you have.

So what is it really.
Doug,
Can you not see that there is more than one way to look at this?
I used to believe as you appear to do. But when I examined the scriptures for what they actually say, rather than what I had been told they say or wanted them to say, I found my previous position unsustainable.

In my view, you and others are making unjustified assumptions and wresting the scriptures to a certain extent.
I have simply stopped doing that and accepted that I don't know and am probably not supposed to know.

To answer your question about whether I want to be "God", the truth is, I don't care.
This is because I believe I have sufficient faith in God to trust him completely regarding my eternal welfare. The promises of scripture are there for me to read and to accept. I accept that he will do right by me and will never, ever let me down.
As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "....eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him".
I would suggest this should be good enough for all of us.
Perhaps we would do well to quit counting our mansions on high and get to work in the here and now.

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Doug
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:21 am

You are right, you can look at it anyway you want, you can read it for what it is or you can deny it for what it is.
But the scriptures and the endowment are pretty much all about the plan of salvation, which is the plan
such that we can all gain what the father has and be what the father is.

In the endowment, we are told that we are to become Adams and Eves
Do you know what that means?
If you are an Adam, what are you, what would you do, besides eating fruit in a garden.
Do you know? I think that you do not. Why not?

In D&C 76 it says that salvation is for all except perdition.
Do you know what salvation is? If you have experienced salvation,
what are you now? what do you do? where are you? what do you have?
I think that you do not know what salvation is. Why not?

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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:39 am

All so, something you seem to have missed

the offspring of cats are cats and they grow up to do what cats do
the offspring of dogs are dogs and they grow up to do what dogs do
the offspring of cows are cows and they grow up to do what cows do
...
...
...

we ARE children of God and we grow up to do what Gods do

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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:35 am

Doug wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:21 am

In the endowment, we are told that we are to become Adams and Eves
No we aren't.
At no point does the endowment presentation say that we are to become Adam or Eve in some other world. You may interpret it that way, but that is you reading things into it.
And even if it did, that is a long way from being almighty God!

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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:18 am

Robin Hood wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:20 pm

Those who have maintained their position on this issue have yet to provide a single evidential scriptural source for the their belief that we can become God. Instead, I am repeatedly asked, in effect, to prove a negative.
Hmmm. You make the above statement but I notice you have ignored my post wherein we can analyze your logic and see that the manner in which you claim to have made your determination is the opposite of the conclusion you espouse. I'm not saying that I find your logic compelling but it is what you have qualified as adequate for yourself.

Therefore my point in presenting the points I have is first, to illustrate you are not being consistent in your own thought processes and second to measure whether this is a conversation worth having because you actually have the capacity to step outside of misinformed opinion to actually trying to understand correct principles.

I seem to recall one other time where I engaged you on a subject and, if memory serves, you completely discounted the prophets as sources of truth and seemed limited to having only one point of influence - yourself. If that is correct and I remember this properly then I suspect that you may not be able to see other possibilities.

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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:20 am

brlenox wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:18 am
Robin Hood wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:20 pm

Those who have maintained their position on this issue have yet to provide a single evidential scriptural source for the their belief that we can become God. Instead, I am repeatedly asked, in effect, to prove a negative.
Hmmm. You make the above statement but I notice you have ignored my post wherein we can analyze your logic and see that the manner in which you claim to have made your determination is the opposite of the conclusion you espouse. I'm not saying that I find your logic compelling but it is what you have qualified as adequate for yourself.

Therefore my point in presenting the points I have is first, to illustrate you are not being consistent in your own thought processes and second to measure whether this is a conversation worth having because you actually have the capacity to step outside of misinformed opinion to actually trying to understand correct principles.

I seem to recall one other time where I engaged you on a subject and, if memory serves, you completely discounted the prophets as sources of truth and seemed limited to having only one point of influence - yourself. If that is correct and I remember this properly then I suspect that you may not be able to see other possibilities.
I'm not going to repeat myself and say the same thing individually to everyone.
Read my responses to Doug.

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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:39 am

Doug wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:39 am
All so, something you seem to have missed

the offspring of cats are cats and they grow up to do what cats do
the offspring of dogs are dogs and they grow up to do what dogs do
the offspring of cows are cows and they grow up to do what cows do
...
...
...

we ARE children of God and we grow up to do what Gods do

"The offspring of cows are cows and they grow up to do what cows do......"

OK I think I understand your position a little more clearly now. It appears to me you're talking about some kind of pre-destination.
That we are all tiny little gods and will naturally grow up, just like the cow or the dog or the cat in your example, and become great big Gods.
So you're some kind of Mormon Calvinist? :)

Although your comment about cows, dogs and cats sounds quite reasonable (if not rather simplistic), I invite you to demonstrate this from the scriptures.

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Robin Hood
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:41 am

Doug wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:21 am


In D&C 76 it says that salvation is for all except perdition.
Do you know what salvation is? If you have experienced salvation,
what are you now? what do you do? where are you? what do you have?
I think that you do not know what salvation is. Why not?
I think I do, but have my doubts about you.
Are you getting salvation and exaltation mixed up?

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Doug
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:49 am

According to Joseph Smith, they ARE the same thing. There is a doctrine taught by him and others that expains that, but it is not in the scriptures so to you it does not matter.
There is no point, you will not see.

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Doug
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:52 am

Robin Hood wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:39 am
Doug wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:39 am
All so, something you seem to have missed

the offspring of cats are cats and they grow up to do what cats do
the offspring of dogs are dogs and they grow up to do what dogs do
the offspring of cows are cows and they grow up to do what cows do
...
...
...

we ARE children of God and we grow up to do what Gods do

"The offspring of cows are cows and they grow up to do what cows do......"

OK I think I understand your position a little more clearly now. It appears to me you're talking about some kind of pre-destination.
That we are all tiny little gods and will naturally grow up, just like the cow or the dog or the cat in your example, and become great big Gods.
So you're some kind of Mormon Calvinist? :)

Although your comment about cows, dogs and cats sounds quite reasonable (if not rather simplistic), I invite you to demonstrate this from the scriptures.
D&C 93:38
Ether 3:14
But you will not chose to understand

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Robin Hood
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:00 am

Doug wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:49 am
.... they ARE the same thing. There is a doctrine taught by him and others that expains that, but it is not in the scriptures so
The church leadership have consistently taught that salvation is a free gift and is manifested by virtue of the resurrection.
Exaltation on the other hand is salvation in the Celestial Kingdom of God. Indeed, the very highest part of the Celestial Kingdom.
Therefore these two things are not the same.

I am assuming you know about the three degrees of glory etc.

Maybe I have assumed too much regarding your basic knowledge of the Plan of Salvation. I don't mean that as some kind of put down or anything. It's just that you appear to be espousing some kind of universalism; a doctrine roundly condemned in the Book of Mormon.

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Robin Hood
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:09 am

Doug wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:52 am
Robin Hood wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:39 am
Doug wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:39 am
All so, something you seem to have missed

the offspring of cats are cats and they grow up to do what cats do
the offspring of dogs are dogs and they grow up to do what dogs do
the offspring of cows are cows and they grow up to do what cows do
...
...
...

we ARE children of God and we grow up to do what Gods do

"The offspring of cows are cows and they grow up to do what cows do......"

OK I think I understand your position a little more clearly now. It appears to me you're talking about some kind of pre-destination.
That we are all tiny little gods and will naturally grow up, just like the cow or the dog or the cat in your example, and become great big Gods.
So you're some kind of Mormon Calvinist? :)

Although your comment about cows, dogs and cats sounds quite reasonable (if not rather simplistic), I invite you to demonstrate this from the scriptures.
D&C 93:38
Ether 3:14
But you will not chose to understand
D&C 93:38 is addressing the fact that infants are blameless before God. They can sin inasmuch as they can do something wrong and break a commandment, but they have been redeemed in their infant state by Christ's atoning sacrifice.
I don't see where it says we will become God.

Ether 3:14 is Christ addressing the truth that he is the father and the son and that those who are faithful and believe on his name will become his sons and daughters. Again, it doesn't say anything about becoming God, or the Son, or a preacher, or a carpenter..... I mean, how far are you taking this idea?

So, if this was your attempt to demonstrate your cow, dog and cat theology from the scriptures, it has to go down as a fail I'm afraid.

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Doug
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:13 am

Robin Hood wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:00 am
Doug wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:49 am
.... they ARE the same thing. There is a doctrine taught by him and others that expains that, but it is not in the scriptures so
The church leadership have consistently taught that salvation is a free gift and is manifested by virtue of the resurrection.
Exaltation on the other hand is salvation in the Celestial Kingdom of God. Indeed, the very highest part of the Celestial Kingdom.
Therefore these two things are not the same.

I am assuming you know about the three degrees of glory etc.

Maybe I have assumed too much regarding your basic knowledge of the Plan of Salvation. I don't mean that as some kind of put down or anything. It's just that you appear to be espousing some kind of universalism; a doctrine roundly condemned in the Book of Mormon.
You assume, that is what you condemn us for, assuming!
You don't know because you don't want to. You don't hunger and thirst after knowledge, you revel in ignorance.
You won't seek Joseph Smiths definition of salvation, you like to claim everyone who believes to be more ignorant than you.
You deny your heritage and lineage to maintain you position.

But you are a child of God.

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brlenox
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:15 am

Robin Hood wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:05 am


Doug,
Can you not see that there is more than one way to look at this?
I used to believe as you appear to do. But when I examined the scriptures for what they actually say, rather than what I had been told they say or wanted them to say, I found my previous position unsustainable.

In my view, you and others are making unjustified assumptions and wresting the scriptures to a certain extent.
I have simply stopped doing that and accepted that I don't know and am probably not supposed to know.

To answer your question about whether I want to be "God", the truth is, I don't care.
This is because I believe I have sufficient faith in God to trust him completely regarding my eternal welfare. The promises of scripture are there for me to read and to accept. I accept that he will do right by me and will never, ever let me down.
As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "....eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him".

I would suggest this should be good enough for all of us.
Perhaps we would do well to quit counting our mansions on high and get to work in the here and now.
You have here presented another thinking pattern that is not consistent with proper understanding of God or his Gospel. It may be suitable for you and you will only move to the points in the eternities to which you have limited yourself but it is not correct.

I am going to try to illustrate this issue, using the scriptures but we are going to have to up the means of understanding to application of principles contained within the scriptures over the explicit contents of the verse. Many people do not have this ability but we shall see how it works for you.

The verses in question are these found in the Doctrine and covenants:
D & C 19:8-10

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it!
The important observations to make are that the Lord is about to explain a mystery which he states "is meet" which is to say is proper, or right that they should know because they are his apostles. But the critical distinction is found in verse 9 "that you may enter into my rest". The point is that before these people could be qualified to enter into the rest of God (synonym for calling and election) there are certain points of knowledge that they must possess. Without that particular piece of knowledge they could not enter into God's "rest".

Verse 10 only points to this conversation as what we are discussing are points of the mystery of godliness which you claim you do not need to know certain things about and that you can simply trust that God will carry you along as an ignorant child who does not put forth the effort to own the blessing offered to you. This of course is another principle found in the scriptures when we consider the words of Abraham:

Abraham 1:2

And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

In other words, you have a right and privilege to claim the blessings that God offers you. Nonchalance, ambivalence, fear, or other forms of carelessness will not afford you what you fail to claim. Seek after and claim what is yours to claim and I suspect you will do well.

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brlenox
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:20 am

Robin Hood wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:20 am
brlenox wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:18 am
Robin Hood wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:20 pm

Those who have maintained their position on this issue have yet to provide a single evidential scriptural source for the their belief that we can become God. Instead, I am repeatedly asked, in effect, to prove a negative.
Hmmm. You make the above statement but I notice you have ignored my post wherein we can analyze your logic and see that the manner in which you claim to have made your determination is the opposite of the conclusion you espouse. I'm not saying that I find your logic compelling but it is what you have qualified as adequate for yourself.

Therefore my point in presenting the points I have is first, to illustrate you are not being consistent in your own thought processes and second to measure whether this is a conversation worth having because you actually have the capacity to step outside of misinformed opinion to actually trying to understand correct principles.

I seem to recall one other time where I engaged you on a subject and, if memory serves, you completely discounted the prophets as sources of truth and seemed limited to having only one point of influence - yourself. If that is correct and I remember this properly then I suspect that you may not be able to see other possibilities.
I'm not going to repeat myself and say the same thing individually to everyone.
Read my responses to Doug.

Doug does not address your own mistakes in logic and your egregious errors in thinking although several of his points are sound and should be compelling to you. I am using your own words to illustrate you have not given this subject the consideration you claim as you flat out disagree with yourself. You must understand I begin to fear for your safety because if we put both of you in a room with yourself I am not sure who would overcome the resulting cognitive dissonance.
Last edited by brlenox on Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:25 am

Robin Hood wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:00 am
Doug wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:49 am
.... they ARE the same thing. There is a doctrine taught by him and others that expains that, but it is not in the scriptures so
The church leadership have consistently taught that salvation is a free gift and is manifested by virtue of the resurrection.
Exaltation on the other hand is salvation in the Celestial Kingdom of God. Indeed, the very highest part of the Celestial Kingdom.
Therefore these two things are not the same.

I am assuming you know about the three degrees of glory etc.

Maybe I have assumed too much regarding your basic knowledge of the Plan of Salvation. I don't mean that as some kind of put down or anything. It's just that you appear to be espousing some kind of universalism; a doctrine roundly condemned in the Book of Mormon.
If you are going to reference church leadership and their discussion of the highest levels of the celestial kingdom are you willing to except what they say about who resides there and what status they achieve? I have quotes if you are willing to explore...

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Robin Hood
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:03 am

Doug wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:13 am
Robin Hood wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:00 am
Doug wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:49 am
.... they ARE the same thing. There is a doctrine taught by him and others that expains that, but it is not in the scriptures so
The church leadership have consistently taught that salvation is a free gift and is manifested by virtue of the resurrection.
Exaltation on the other hand is salvation in the Celestial Kingdom of God. Indeed, the very highest part of the Celestial Kingdom.
Therefore these two things are not the same.

I am assuming you know about the three degrees of glory etc.

Maybe I have assumed too much regarding your basic knowledge of the Plan of Salvation. I don't mean that as some kind of put down or anything. It's just that you appear to be espousing some kind of universalism; a doctrine roundly condemned in the Book of Mormon.
You assume, that is what you condemn us for, assuming!
You don't know because you don't want to. You don't hunger and thirst after knowledge, you revel in ignorance.
You won't seek Joseph Smiths definition of salvation, you like to claim everyone who believes to be more ignorant than you.
You deny your heritage and lineage to maintain you position.
Stop beating about the bush and just say what you think. :)

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Robin Hood
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Re: exalted man : "God was a man like you" (serpent to eve)

Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:14 am

Brlenox, Doug,
Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.
Clearly you need a little more maturity in the gospel, and possibly a deeper reverence and humility regarding your standing before Almighty God. Remember Moses' experience?
I'm sure you'll find out for yourselves one day.
I wish you well.

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