Presidency of the Seventy letter to affirm LDS/BSA Relationship

[Craig Johnson]

You have a fascinating background in scouting! My oldest two sons are eagles. Which I almost got the impression you are saying that is not a big deal. It was for us! Man did we (especially my wife due to my deployments) put a lot of time and effort into their achievement. I am not certain why the gay thing is not a big deal in other countries, but, due to my Navy career you can bet I have some insight into that and not because there is a lot of gayness in the Navy which there isn't, well wasn't. We cannot change our perception and revulsion for homosexuality and pedophilia based on what other countries perceptions are, even if they want to arrest us for them, which I don't doubt that at all, tells me a lot. I was molested by a homosexual pedophile as a youth in the mid-sixties. They have vastly proliferated since then. We owe our children a safe environment from that, not a risky one. It's worth thinking about and taking action on, which the church has done and I think they are maintaining vigilance, it is not an insignificant or lesser issue. It can and does ruin lives.

[creator]

I'm an Eagle Scout (through my own motivation, not my parents). My experiences in scouts were positive but I do hope the Church parts ways with the BSA - it's not a good organization.

[Craig Johnson]

I'm an Eagle Scout (through my own motivation, not my parents). My experiences in scouts were positive but I do hope the Church parts ways with the BSA - it's not a good organization.

I am also opposed to the BSA due to their capitulation to worldliness. I will only support it as long as the church does and then I will be done when they are. My boys would not have made it to eagle without parenting, I am very certain.

[gkearney]

You have a fascinating background in scouting! My oldest two sons are eagles. Which I almost got the impression you are saying that is not a big deal. It was for us! Man did we (especially my wife due to my deployments) put a lot of time and effort into their achievement. I am not certain why the gay thing is not a big deal in other countries, but, due to my Navy career you can bet I have some insight into that and not because there is a lot of gayness in the Navy which there isn't, well wasn't. We cannot change our perception and revulsion for homosexuality and pedophilia based on what other countries perceptions are, even if they want to arrest us for them, which I don't doubt that at all, tells me a lot. I was molested by a homosexual pedophile as a youth in the mid-sixties. They have vastly proliferated since then. We owe our children a safe environment from that, not a risky one. It's worth thinking about and taking action on, which the church has done and I think they are maintaining vigilance, it is not an insignificant or lesser issue. It can and does ruin lives.

I was not saying that Eagle Scout is not a worthwhile thing for a young person to strive for. What I was saying is that advancement is not the beginning and end of scouting. It is just one of the methods.

As for gays, I have never heard of anyone anywhere in the world, including in the US or the church asking a scout if they were gay or depriving that young person of scouting because they were gay. Indeed if you look at it from a purely statistical perspective there would be more gay LDS scouts as a percentage than any other group because the church has enrolled all it's young men, gay and straight into scouting automatically. As a Scout Chaplain with the WOSM I would NEVER under any conditions ever ask a scout any such question and I don't believe any other scout leader should or hopefully would ask such a thing. My work as a chaplain has centered around running religious services at camp, finding the direction of Mecca when there was a question about it, consoling a homesick scout, handing out rosaries as needed and relieving a scout leader who was at his or her whitts end with his charges.

As to the matter of leaders, I have never seen any direction from Salt Lake, either in the General Handbook or in the Church Scouting Handbook for the U.S. which instructs that homosexuals should not be called as scout leaders based on that trait alone. Remember that a scout leader is just about the only calling in the church in which there really is a background check don on the person. Done by the BSA I would point out not the Church.

[Craig Johnson]

You have a fascinating background in scouting! My oldest two sons are eagles. Which I almost got the impression you are saying that is not a big deal. It was for us! Man did we (especially my wife due to my deployments) put a lot of time and effort into their achievement. I am not certain why the gay thing is not a big deal in other countries, but, due to my Navy career you can bet I have some insight into that and not because there is a lot of gayness in the Navy which there isn't, well wasn't. We cannot change our perception and revulsion for homosexuality and pedophilia based on what other countries perceptions are, even if they want to arrest us for them, which I don't doubt that at all, tells me a lot. I was molested by a homosexual pedophile as a youth in the mid-sixties. They have vastly proliferated since then. We owe our children a safe environment from that, not a risky one. It's worth thinking about and taking action on, which the church has done and I think they are maintaining vigilance, it is not an insignificant or lesser issue. It can and does ruin lives.

I was not saying that Eagle Scout is not a worthwhile thing for a young person to strive for. What I was saying is that advancement is not the beginning and end of scouting. It is just one of the methods.

As for gays, I have never heard of anyone anywhere in the world, including in the US or the church asking a scout if they were gay or depriving that young person of scouting because they were gay. Indeed if you look at it from a purely statistical perspective there would be more gay LDS scouts as a percentage than any other group because the church has enrolled all it's young men, gay and straight into scouting automatically. As a Scout Chaplain with the WOSM I would NEVER under any conditions ever ask a scout any such question and I don't believe any other scout leader should or hopefully would ask such a thing. My work as a chaplain has centered around running religious services at camp, finding the direction of Mecca when there was a question about it, consoling a homesick scout, handing out rosaries as needed and relieving a scout leader who was at his or her whitts end with his charges.

As to the matter of leaders, I have never seen any direction from Salt Lake, either in the General Handbook or in the Church Scouting Handbook for the U.S. which instructs that homosexuals should not be called as scout leaders based on that trait alone. Remember that a scout leader is just about the only calling in the church in which there really is a background check don on the person. Done by the BSA I would point out not the Church.

Sorry, I did not mean to infer that. I am concerned about pedophile homosexual LEADERS not the children.

[pjbrownie]

I am pretty certain the only time they do it is when the background of someone is not really known very well, like when people move into a new area and there is any reason to be unsure. For instance, they show up with no temple recommend or something is wrong with their membership record, on this I am guessing, but I do know records are flagged and please don't ask me how I know this because I would not reveal what happened to a certain in-law even though he might not complain about it. In these cases although an inspiration can be strong, it is a really good idea to make certain said persons have not victimized anyone. The church leadership has a legal right and a moral duty to protect the vulnerable adults and children in all wards and stakes.

The only background check done is through former ecclesiastical leaders. Unless they collect a social security number from you and ask for your permission, you aren't getting a background check.

[gkearney]

The only background check done is through former ecclesiastical leaders. Unless they collect a social security number from you and ask for your permission, you aren't getting a background check.

In the United States and Canada this is true but not so in other countries. In Australia and New Zealand people who work or volunteer in situations when one comes in contact with children 0-18 must have a "Working with Children Card" I had one as a scout leader, my wife had one as a children's librarian, teachers have one, police and firefighters have one and so on. You can not get one if you have any kind of violent criminal conviction in your past as well as certain other convictions where you have engaged in behaviour which endangers the public in some fashion. Of course any kind of case which involved children will rule you out.

I was a stake clerk and it fell to me to check that everyone called to any such position, from nursery worker to Bishop had one of these before the calling could be extended. Yes this law applied to churches as well. The authorities took this very seriously and would, audit us on the matter, the church would also audit us as well. Most of the time. It wasn't a big deal. I would fill out the paperwork. the person would go to the Post Office and get a ID card photo of themselves, I would send it off and a week or so later I would have the clearance back with the plastic card to give them.

We did have one situation where things went off the rails. We had a opening for a Bishop. The stake leadership went through the whole process, sent the name to be cleared through Salt Lake everything was in order and I was working the paperwork when I asked to see his working with children card. He told me he didn't have one. No problem I thought and I filled out the paperwork and sent him to the post office for the picture. I waited for the clearance to come back, and waited and waited.

The Stake President was breathing down my neck about it. Then one day I got a letter from the police. The name had not cleared. I checked all the paperwork with this man, did I have all the details right? Everything was correct. So I went into a meeting with him and the Stake President. The poor follow was racking his brain trying to figure out any reason for the denial. Then he asked how far bact the records go. I said as far back as when you are 18. His eyes grew big. As a young man he had served in the Army and had been disciplined for driving an army vehicle under the influence. This it turned out marked his application for rejection. As I said you can be rejected for acts in your past which endangers the public and drink driving was one of those.

So the Stake President had to go through the whole process again after explaining to Salt Lake why he could not call the original man to be Bishop. In effect the government of Australia and its states have a veto of who the church can call as a Bishop or many other calling. I will leave it to all of you here to consider just what this means.

By the way it is possible to get such convictions expunged from your record but it is a long process with the police to do so. This man did do this process. but it took like a year to complete.

[LdsMarco]

Well, that's just disappointing.

This is just bad at this point. The church should have taken the opportunity to do their own worldwide youth program that would help Strengthen the Youth and unify them with common moral standings, goals and ideals.

Personally I thought they were just keeping with scouting till President Monson died.

And who is going to do it? I don't know about your stake/ward, but where I'm at, we have no one who is committed to fulfill these callings. It's truly sad. Our stake has now created a Super Pac and taken control of the cub scouts because it's gotten so bad. If parents were more supportive, it would make things much easier. I use to hate (not dislike, but hate) the scout program because I felt it was not working (and it's not), but I now know why scouts is very important. It's to prepare men (and women/girl scouts) for survival. This was manifested to me by the spirit by revelation. I've never met a parent (including me) who teaches their kids to know how to survive in case of an emergency (including a doomsday scenario). This is why I believe the church still continues this program but it wouldn't surprise me that it will be demolished because of the lack of commitment. I've heard many members complain on why the church doesn't talk about preparedness much.... uuum, open your eyes. The scout program is part of it

[Sunain]

Well, that's just disappointing.

This is just bad at this point. The church should have taken the opportunity to do their own worldwide youth program that would help Strengthen the Youth and unify them with common moral standings, goals and ideals.

Personally I thought they were just keeping with scouting till President Monson died.

And who is going to do it? I don't know about your stake/ward, but where I'm at, we have no one who is committed to fulfill these callings. It's truly sad. Our stake has now created a Super Pac and taken control of the cub scouts because it's gotten so bad. If parents were more supportive, it would make things much easier. I use to hate (not dislike, but hate) the scout program because I felt it was not working (and it's not), but I now know why scouts is very important. It's to prepare men (and women/girl scouts) for survival. This was manifested to me by the spirit by revelation. I've never met a parent (including me) who teaches their kids to know how to survive in case of an emergency (including a doomsday scenario). This is why I believe the church still continues this program but it wouldn't surprise me that it will be demolished because of the lack of commitment. I've heard many members complain on why the church doesn't talk about preparedness much.... uuum, open your eyes. The scout program is part of it

There is absolutely no question that the scouting program is very good having gone through it myself for skills and preparedness but it just doesn't align with the church anymore as it's been stated above. We should not be supporting an organization that is opposed to what the God has taught us about family values and it is our moral responsibility to take the higher ground to be an example to the world, something scouting used to teach! Scouting used to align morally with the church and now it doesn't and that is the crux of most people's opposition to the church continuing with supporting scouting.

The church could easily create a similar Youth men's program (the young women have their own program), where the values, skills and preparedness that scouting provides could still be taught without having to support an external organization that is now misaligned. We have the Duty to God award and the On My Honor award, so it's not like we could just revolve the young men's program around getting those. Create young men's activities that could help with the requirements for both.

I'm in the BC, Canada area and there just isn't that many youth active in the church here. Even when I was in scouting, troops here were multi-ward to get enough for the minimum to be organized and run. I can't imagine there being more than a couple thousand young men in scouting in Canada, at best. The young men have always had an option here in Canada not to do scouting from 14 to 16 and even then some of the younger youth also just 'skip' out and join in with them.

[e-eye2.0]

Well, that's just disappointing.

This is just bad at this point. The church should have taken the opportunity to do their own worldwide youth program that would help Strengthen the Youth and unify them with common moral standings, goals and ideals.

Personally I thought they were just keeping with scouting till President Monson died.

And who is going to do it? I don't know about your stake/ward, but where I'm at, we have no one who is committed to fulfill these callings. It's truly sad. Our stake has now created a Super Pac and taken control of the cub scouts because it's gotten so bad. If parents were more supportive, it would make things much easier. I use to hate (not dislike, but hate) the scout program because I felt it was not working (and it's not), but I now know why scouts is very important. It's to prepare men (and women/girl scouts) for survival. This was manifested to me by the spirit by revelation. I've never met a parent (including me) who teaches their kids to know how to survive in case of an emergency (including a doomsday scenario). This is why I believe the church still continues this program but it wouldn't surprise me that it will be demolished because of the lack of commitment. I've heard many members complain on why the church doesn't talk about preparedness much.... uuum, open your eyes. The scout program is part of it

There is absolutely no question that the scouting program is very good having gone through it myself for skills and preparedness but it just doesn't align with the church anymore as it's been stated above. We should not be supporting an organization that is opposed to what the God has taught us about family values and it is our moral responsibility to take the higher ground to be an example to the world, something scouting used to teach! Scouting used to align morally with the church and now it doesn't and that is the crux of most people's opposition to the church continuing with supporting scouting.

The church could easily create a similar Youth men's program (the young women have their own program), where the values, skills and preparedness that scouting provides could still be taught without having to support an external organization that is now misaligned. We have the Duty to God award and the On My Honor award, so it's not like we could just revolve the young men's program around getting those. Create young men's activities that could help with the requirements for both.

I'm in the BC, Canada area and there just isn't that many youth active in the church here. Even when I was in scouting, troops here were multi-ward to get enough for the minimum to be organized and run. I can't imagine there being more than a couple thousand young men in scouting in Canada, at best. The young men have always had an option here in Canada not to do scouting from 14 to 16 and even then some of the younger youth also just 'skip' out and join in with them.

The church already has a system in place ready for when they do leave scouting. I am a little careful in my wording. I don't say that the church should leave scouting as that is not my decision however or authority, I will be 100% okay when they do. I think the focus should be more on the Duty to God program but it kind of gets put on the back shelf.

The move from scouting is and will be a slow process which has already started. It's hard to replace what was a good program already and due to the missionary opportunities that scouting presents and many other good things it's not just something you drop all at once. Being that the church has something to replace it makes me believe they have seen the writing on the wall for awhile now.

[gkearney]

OK in what way has the BSA become come kind of cesspool of immorality? Is it because of gay scouts? I would remind you all that statically there are more gay LDS scouts than any other group because the church enrolls all the boys gay or straight in scouting. I have never heard of a scout being drummed out of a troop either LDS or otherwise for being gay. It is also worth remembering that the BSA followed the church's lead in this matter in permitting all boy gay and straight to be scouts.

Is it the fact that there might be gay scout leaders? Again there is nothing whatsoever in the handbooks for the church that instructs that a homosexual should not be called to be a scout leader based only on the fact of his sexual orientation. Again I would remind you all that teh BSA, unlike the church conducts background checks on all the adult leaders. The same can not be said for your child's Sunday School teachers.

Is it because the BSA after many, many years is now a coed program? Please, we send our children to all manner of coed programs from schools to church classes and beyond. How is having girls in scouting really leading to moral decay? How is teaching girls and your women citizenship, leadership and self reliance leading our youth to moral ruin?

Now you can complain about the way the BSA is run, the pay they give executives, the methods they employ in fundraising. But to somehow sit here and say that they have become some kind of morally corrupting influence upon our youth just seem to be a stretch to me.

[gkearney]

The church already has a system in place ready for when they do leave scouting. I am a little careful in my wording. I don't say that the church should leave scouting as that is not my decision however or authority, I will be 100% okay when they do. I think the focus should be more on the Duty to God program but it kind of gets put on the back shelf.

The move from scouting is and will be a slow process which has already started. It's hard to replace what was a good program already and due to the missionary opportunities that scouting presents and many other good things it's not just something you drop all at once. Being that the church has something to replace it makes me believe they have seen the writing on the wall for awhile now.

And just what program would that be pray tell? The church left scouting in Australia over 20 year ago and the Australians are still, to this day, waiting for the "program" to materialize from the church. If such a system is really "in place" why have they been holding out on providing it to the youth of the church around the world?

I've been hearing about this mythical program for years and years now with nothing whatsoever to show for it.

[e-eye2.0]

The church already has a system in place ready for when they do leave scouting. I am a little careful in my wording. I don't say that the church should leave scouting as that is not my decision however or authority, I will be 100% okay when they do. I think the focus should be more on the Duty to God program but it kind of gets put on the back shelf.

The move from scouting is and will be a slow process which has already started. It's hard to replace what was a good program already and due to the missionary opportunities that scouting presents and many other good things it's not just something you drop all at once. Being that the church has something to replace it makes me believe they have seen the writing on the wall for awhile now.

And just what program would that be pray tell? The church left scouting in Australia over 20 year ago and the Australians are still, to this day, waiting for the "program" to materialize from the church. If such a system is really "in place" why have they been holding out on providing it to the youth of the church around the world?

I've been hearing about this mythical program for years and years now with nothing whatsoever to show for it.

Not sure - rumor for me too. I have heard from multiple sources - probably the closest thing I have heard is from my friend in a neighboring stake who said when a general authority visited their stake last year they said the church has something to take it's place. That and just people online who say they have either been a part of working on it, or had too heard such rumors.

I don't think it will be anything overwhelming. if you look at us leaving the venturing and varsity and what they have put in place I would guess it's somewhat similar with the younger boys continuing the camp outs each month and various things similar to scouting.

Personally I have been a bigger proponent of Duty to God but I think it's mildly successful due to implementation on the ward level.

[Craig Johnson]

I am pretty certain the only time they do it is when the background of someone is not really known very well, like when people move into a new area and there is any reason to be unsure. For instance, they show up with no temple recommend or something is wrong with their membership record, on this I am guessing, but I do know records are flagged and please don't ask me how I know this because I would not reveal what happened to a certain in-law even though he might not complain about it. In these cases although an inspiration can be strong, it is a really good idea to make certain said persons have not victimized anyone. The church leadership has a legal right and a moral duty to protect the vulnerable adults and children in all wards and stakes.

The only background check done is through former ecclesiastical leaders. Unless they collect a social security number from you and ask for your permission, you aren't getting a background check.

Please look at this link so you can know what is actually done, you will need to read the whole thing:
https://www.lds.org/callings/primary/le ... s?lang=eng

[h_p]

Is it the fact that there might be gay scout leaders? Again there is nothing whatsoever in the handbooks for the church that instructs that a homosexual should not be called to be a scout leader based only on the fact of his sexual orientation.

Would the BSA exclude a scout leader who is living in a homosexual relationship? Their new policy says no. The church would say yes. Would the church exclude a girl who thinks she's a boy? I don't know the answer to that, though it sounds like the answer is yes, but the BSA no longer does.

I don't know if you have a problem with either of those things. But I do.

[gkearney]

Is it the fact that there might be gay scout leaders? Again there is nothing whatsoever in the handbooks for the church that instructs that a homosexual should not be called to be a scout leader based only on the fact of his sexual orientation.

Would the BSA exclude a scout leader who is living in a homosexual relationship? Their new policy says no. The church would say yes. Would the church exclude a girl who thinks she's a boy? I don't know the answer to that, though it sounds like the answer is yes, but the BSA no longer does.

I don't know if you have a problem with either of those things. But I do.

You could say the same for drinking, smoking, living with your girlfriend or any other list of things. The BSA lets us choose who our scout leaders will be they do not impose upon us leaders not of our choosing. Now I have heard some say that there might be such people living in a homosexual relationship with other troops and so we should not take part in scouting because of that. Well good heavens, are we going to cut ourselves off from everything and every situation where our young people might be exposed to someone living in a homosexual relationship? I mean that could be a teacher in school, a police officer, a neighbor or for that matter someone in church. Are we really going to go live in isolation from everything?

Given that BSA is now coed I think the issue with transgender youth is rather irrelevant. I am not sure what the Church position is on such a thing. It may well be they do not even have one.

[pjbrownie]

Is it the fact that there might be gay scout leaders? Again there is nothing whatsoever in the handbooks for the church that instructs that a homosexual should not be called to be a scout leader based only on the fact of his sexual orientation.

Would the BSA exclude a scout leader who is living in a homosexual relationship? Their new policy says no. The church would say yes. Would the church exclude a girl who thinks she's a boy? I don't know the answer to that, though it sounds like the answer is yes, but the BSA no longer does.

I don't know if you have a problem with either of those things. But I do.

You could say the same for drinking, smoking, living with your girlfriend or any other list of things. The BSA lets us choose who our scout leaders will be they do not impose upon us leaders not of our choosing. Now I have heard some say that there might be such people living in a homosexual relationship with other troops and so we should not take part in scouting because of that. Well good heavens, are we going to cut ourselves off from everything and every situation where our young people might be exposed to someone living in a homosexual relationship? I mean that could be a teacher in school, a police officer, a neighbor or for that matter someone in church. Are we really going to go live in isolation from everything?

Given that BSA is now coed I think the issue with transgender youth is rather irrelevant. I am not sure what the Church position is on such a thing. It may well be they do not even have one.

Actually BOTH the BSA and Church are okay with gay Scout leaders as long as they don't ACT on it.

[h_p]

But the BSA is now OK with leaders who do act on it.