DACA and the Book of Mormon

[LatterDayLizard]

"But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of MY SEED. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto ME, and to MY children forever, AND ALSO all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be BROUGHT BY THE HAND OF THE LORD."

- 2 Nephi 1: 5-6

The people who have come into this country and who will come in the future are all brought here by the hand of the Lord. Whether their coming is to our benefit or to our detriment is entirely up to us.

The Lord's ways are not our ways. His work is not to preserve one culture over another, but rather to bring about the immortality and eternal life of ALL of his children.

This country was founded to be the cradle of the restoration. Through that work, he is preparing this land and this people to build Zion. How ironic it would be if our obsession with walls and laws threatened the delay of Zion, blinding us to that greater obligation we have as christians to "withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of (our) hand to do it."

President Trump has a valid point:
DACA = overreach of presidential power. The rule of law matters. We should support wise implementation and enforcement of immigration laws. Poor enforcement / skirting the law is, frankly, on our own heads as Americans. We have not been able to unite and press congress to act one way or another, and they've been avoiding this issue for decades. Why? Because immigrant labor is so cheap. Illegals have no recourse if an employer abuses, underpays, or withholds their pay entirely. We should think twice about that.
Ecomonies built on the backs of slave labor are destined to crumble.

We should also think twice about how we choose to treat those whom the Lord has brought here, by His own hand (and, really, as the result of our own greed.)

"Dreamers" are here through no fault of their own. America is what they know. Imagine your children being shipped to a third world country because of something you did; the hell they would be put through.

"Too bad, they broke the law."

Remember that the next time you're struggling to make your house pmnt and a traffic cop lets you off with a verbal warning rather than slapping you with a $200 speeding ticket.

"withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it." - Proverbs 3:27

[markharr]

Trump is dealing with this correctly.

He repealed an unconstitutional executive memo and put pressure on Congress to legislate it as it should have been done in the first place.

I still believe a wall should be built. The American people voted for that. We have immigration laws and they should be followed. I hope that trump at least got commitments from the Democrats on full funding for his wall, and a tax cut out of the debt ceiling increase.

[LatterDayLizard]

Trump is dealing with this correctly.

He repealed an unconstitutional executive memo and put pressure on Congress to legislate it as it should have been done in the first place.

I agree. Congress needs to man up and do what's right rather than what's politically expedient. They may as well; whatever position they take at this point will cost them votes.

I still believe a wall should be built. The American people voted for that. We have immigration laws and they should be followed. I hope that trump at least got commitments from the Democrats on full funding for his wall, and a tax cut out of the debt ceiling increase.

A wall is a reasonable precaution imo.
Trump made his own mess by promising Mexico would pay to build a wall. Sure, it helped get him in office, but it places him well within the ranks of the lying "elite", a group he supposedly opposes. I don't know how he will turn that around in his favor, to be honest.

[Robin Hood]

Which country is Lehi talking about?
Is it the US? Canada? Mexico? ..... etc.
Or all of the above.

[LatterDayLizard]

Which country is Lehi talking about?
Is it the US? Canada? Mexico? ..... etc.
Or all of the above.

1 Nephi 13 makes it clear that the "land of promise" is the United States. Whether that extends north into Canada or south into Mexico I'm not sure.

[Robin Hood]

Which country is Lehi talking about?
Is it the US? Canada? Mexico? ..... etc.
Or all of the above.

1 Nephi 13 makes it clear that the "land of promise" is the United States. Whether that extends north into Canada or south into Mexico I'm not sure.

Interesting interpretation.
I used to share that view but I have been tempted to modify it in recent times.
To hold that the BofM land of promise is the US we have to jettison many of the theories regarding the location of the BofM story and accept the Heartland or Great Lakes model. This would mean we would also have to accept the limited geography model rather than a hemispheric one. Therefore, is it possible Lehi was referring to land he was to inherit (limited geography) rather than what constitutes the US today?
Maybe the original 13 colonies to which the Constitution originally applied?

[LatterDayLizard]

Which country is Lehi talking about?
Is it the US? Canada? Mexico? ..... etc.
Or all of the above.

1 Nephi 13 makes it clear that the "land of promise" is the United States. Whether that extends north into Canada or south into Mexico I'm not sure.

Interesting interpretation.
I used to share that view but I have been tempted to modify it in recent times.
To hold that the BofM land of promise is the US we have to jettison many of the theories regarding the location of the BofM story and accept the Heartland or Great Lakes model. This would mean we would also have to accept the limited geography model rather than a hemispheric one. Therefore, is it possible Lehi was referring to land he was to inherit (limited geography) rather than what constitutes the US today?
Maybe the original 13 colonies to which the Constitution originally applied?

Or maybe Lehi was referring to the Americas, from Canada to Chile (Isaiah's "wings").

We can be certain that the U.S. is included under the definition of the promised land. The prophets have been pretty clear about that.

[Michelle]

"But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of MY SEED. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto ME, and to MY children forever, AND ALSO all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be BROUGHT BY THE HAND OF THE LORD."

- 2 Nephi 1: 5-6

The people who have come into this country and who will come in the future are all brought here by the hand of the Lord. Whether their coming is to our benefit or to our detriment is entirely up to us.

The Lord's ways are not our ways. His work is not to preserve one culture over another, but rather to bring about the immortality and eternal life of ALL of his children.

This country was founded to be the cradle of the restoration. Through that work, he is preparing this land and this people to build Zion. How ironic it would be if our obsession with walls and laws threatened the delay of Zion, blinding us to that greater obligation we have as christians to "withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of (our) hand to do it."

President Trump has a valid point:
DACA = overreach of presidential power. The rule of law matters. We should support wise implementation and enforcement of immigration laws. Poor enforcement / skirting the law is, frankly, on our own heads as Americans. We have not been able to unite and press congress to act one way or another, and they've been avoiding this issue for decades. Why? Because immigrant labor is so cheap. Illegals have no recourse if an employer abuses, underpays, or withholds their pay entirely. We should think twice about that.
Ecomonies built on the backs of slave labor are destined to crumble.

We should also think twice about how we choose to treat those whom the Lord has brought here, by His own hand (and, really, as the result of our own greed.)

"Dreamers" are here through no fault of their own. America is what they know. Imagine your children being shipped to a third world country because of something you did; the hell they would be put through.

"Too bad, they broke the law."

Remember that the next time you're struggling to make your house pmnt and a traffic cop lets you off with a verbal warning rather than slapping you with a $200 speeding ticket.

"withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it." - Proverbs 3:27

Careful. You seem to want your comment to mean that all who come are brought by the hand of the Lord BECAUSE they are righteous and it is their rightful inheritance, but he brought Laman and Lemuel as well so that they, and their children, could be a scourge unto the righteous decedents of Nephi and turn them to God. Not all who come are righteous. We have plenty of history to prove that.

I am not trying to imply that is the purpose of illegal immigrants in God's plan, but your comment (one I've seen from many people before) doesn't actually imply what you seem to want it to mean.

Also, is just America the promised land? What about Mexico and Canada, maybe South America as well?

Second, we do believe in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law.

What if America denied the sovereignty of Mexico and said, "We're sick of how things are going. Your decisions and choices are affecting us to heavily. We're going to send a whole bunch of people in uninvited to change things." Would you defend the USA in doing so?

I went through the immigration process with my first husband, from Mexico. I grant you it is not easy. I have many friends who have gone through the process as well and many who skirted the law.

I have seen first hand how those who refuse to obey the law, hurt those who do obey the law. If you want the Lord's blessings, you have to do it in the Lord's way.

Finally, wanting something a lot is not the same as it being the right answer. Christ asked his Heavenly Father if he could avoid drinking the bitter cup of the Atonement, but at the same time, said "Thy will be done."

Those who come here illegally are not submitting to the law. They are making their own law. One of the biggest problems with that is that we are a nation of laws. The rule of law has set us apart in the world and led to great progress and prosperity. Breaking laws, instead of working to change laws, would be our downfall. We must ask, if one will break this law, what keeps him from breaking another law?

Finally, there are victims. In order to work here many of my former family members would get fake SS cards. Those fake cards affected real people. Identity theft is not a joke. It is a life changer. It is the worst kind of theft because it steals not only your temporal goods, but your opportunities as well. Not OK.

Now, I agree that life is difficult and dangerous in many places and that is why people choose to leave. But for every person that comes illegally, there are those that would have been invited legally that are left behind. What of their lives? Why is one more important than another? No offense intended, but I prefer the law abiding immigrant to the illegal.

So, what about the kids? Do you really want to teach your kids that it is ok to break the law as long as you don't get caught or at least caught for a long time? Do you want them to think that the rules don't apply to them, as long as they really want something? Parents make choices every day that affect their kids lives forever. Some good, some bad. Why do we hold this consequence above others? People move from one country to another everyday. Some require more adjustments than others. Besides, if your parents are from that country, you at least have an advantage as to culture and how to get along compared to those who do not have family from the area. Why not be glad for your time here and use what you learned to improve your country of origin?

Not everyone will live in America. That is ok. Not everyone wants to. That is ok too. We don't get everything we want in life. And it would not be good for us if we did.

Integrity is vital to salvation. No one stands over God's shoulder to make sure he follows the rules. If we want to be like him, we have to do what is right, even when no one is watching and even if we don't get caught.

Finally, I agree that we should let more people come. But that requires changing the law, not breaking it. That is essentially what Trump is doing. Obama broke the law, Trump is giving it back to Congress and saying "This was broken when I got here, and since it is rightfully yours, I am giving it back to you to fix."

America is our home, and like every country on the planet, we get to choose who comes in the front door.

(PS, There are plenty of laws here I don't like, but I still follow them. There are also legal things I believe to be contrary to God's laws, morally wrong, that I don't take advantage of even when eligible: like welfare. We still have agency.)

Edit: Whoops, lots of "finally"s. I was interrupted a lot while typing. lol

[markharr]

I personally believe that Trump is being blackmailed.

We know the Russian Dossier was fabricated. They used that as an excuse to get a special prosecutor. The special prosecutor immediately started hiring dozens of Hillary supporter liberal lawyers and went well beyond the Russian collusion investigation. They obviously found something that could use as justification to get Trump impeached, land him in prison, or at very least something that would be embarrassing if it was released publicly. They are using it as leverage to get Trump to play ball. They would have done it to any candidate who won who wasn't on board with their agenda.

We live in a bloated bureaucratic superstate with millions of laws and regulations. We probably all break the law several times a day without even realizing it. Someone like Trump with multi-billion dollar businesses probably breaks a dozen laws a day, and it's all stored in that data center in Draper.

I don't have any proof, just looking at the empirical evidence.

[LatterDayLizard]

"But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of MY SEED. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto ME, and to MY children forever, AND ALSO all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be BROUGHT BY THE HAND OF THE LORD."

- 2 Nephi 1: 5-6

The people who have come into this country and who will come in the future are all brought here by the hand of the Lord. Whether their coming is to our benefit or to our detriment is entirely up to us.

The Lord's ways are not our ways. His work is not to preserve one culture over another, but rather to bring about the immortality and eternal life of ALL of his children.

This country was founded to be the cradle of the restoration. Through that work, he is preparing this land and this people to build Zion. How ironic it would be if our obsession with walls and laws threatened the delay of Zion, blinding us to that greater obligation we have as christians to "withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of (our) hand to do it."

President Trump has a valid point:
DACA = overreach of presidential power. The rule of law matters. We should support wise implementation and enforcement of immigration laws. Poor enforcement / skirting the law is, frankly, on our own heads as Americans. We have not been able to unite and press congress to act one way or another, and they've been avoiding this issue for decades. Why? Because immigrant labor is so cheap. Illegals have no recourse if an employer abuses, underpays, or withholds their pay entirely. We should think twice about that.
Ecomonies built on the backs of slave labor are destined to crumble.

We should also think twice about how we choose to treat those whom the Lord has brought here, by His own hand (and, really, as the result of our own greed.)

"Dreamers" are here through no fault of their own. America is what they know. Imagine your children being shipped to a third world country because of something you did; the hell they would be put through.

"Too bad, they broke the law."

Remember that the next time you're struggling to make your house pmnt and a traffic cop lets you off with a verbal warning rather than slapping you with a $200 speeding ticket.

"withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it." - Proverbs 3:27

Careful. You seem to want your comment to mean that all who come are brought by the hand of the Lord BECAUSE they are righteous and it is their rightful inheritance, but he brought Laman and Lemuel as well so that they, and their children, could be a scourge unto the righteous decedents of Nephi and turn them to God. Not all who come are righteous. We have plenty of history to prove that.

I am not trying to imply that is the purpose of illegal immigrants in God's plan, but your comment (one I've seen from many people before) doesn't actually imply what you seem to want it to mean.

Also, is just America the promised land? What about Mexico and Canada, maybe South America as well?

Second, we do believe in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law.

What if America denied the sovereignty of Mexico and said, "We're sick of how things are going. Your decisions and choices are affecting us to heavily. We're going to send a whole bunch of people in uninvited to change things." Would you defend the USA in doing so?

I went through the immigration process with my first husband, from Mexico. I grant you it is not easy. I have many friends who have gone through the process as well and many who skirted the law.

I have seen first hand how those who refuse to obey the law, hurt those who do obey the law. If you want the Lord's blessings, you have to do it in the Lord's way.

Finally, wanting something a lot is not the same as it being the right answer. Christ asked his Heavenly Father if he could avoid drinking the bitter cup of the Atonement, but at the same time, said "Thy will be done."

Those who come here illegally are not submitting to the law. They are making their own law. One of the biggest problems with that is that we are a nation of laws. The rule of law has set us apart in the world and led to great progress and prosperity. Breaking laws, instead of working to change laws, would be our downfall. We must ask, if one will break this law, what keeps him from breaking another law?

Finally, there are victims. In order to work here many of my former family members would get fake SS cards. Those fake cards affected real people. Identity theft is not a joke. It is a life changer. It is the worst kind of theft because it steals not only your temporal goods, but your opportunities as well. Not OK.

Now, I agree that life is difficult and dangerous in many places and that is why people choose to leave. But for every person that comes illegally, there are those that would have been invited legally that are left behind. What of their lives? Why is one more important than another? No offense intended, but I prefer the law abiding immigrant to the illegal.

So, what about the kids? Do you really want to teach your kids that it is ok to break the law as long as you don't get caught or at least caught for a long time? Do you want them to think that the rules don't apply to them, as long as they really want something? Parents make choices every day that affect their kids lives forever. Some good, some bad. Why do we hold this consequence above others? People move from one country to another everyday. Some require more adjustments than others. Besides, if your parents are from that country, you at least have an advantage as to culture and how to get along compared to those who do not have family from the area. Why not be glad for your time here and use what you learned to improve your country of origin?

Not everyone will live in America. That is ok. Not everyone wants to. That is ok too. We don't get everything we want in life. And it would not be good for us if we did.

Integrity is vital to salvation. No one stands over God's shoulder to make sure he follows the rules. If we want to be like him, we have to do what is right, even when no one is watching and even if we don't get caught.

Finally, I agree that we should let more people come. But that requires changing the law, not breaking it. That is essentially what Trump is doing. Obama broke the law, Trump is giving it back to Congress and saying "This was broken when I got here, and since it is rightfully yours, I am giving it back to you to fix."

America is our home, and like every country on the planet, we get to choose who comes in the front door.

(PS, There are plenty of laws here I don't like, but I still follow them. There are also legal things I believe to be contrary to God's laws, morally wrong, that I don't take advantage of even when eligible: like welfare. We still have agency.)

Edit: Whoops, lots of "finally"s. I was interrupted a lot while typing. lol

Great, thoughtful response, thank you! I have to run but will give a better reply than this, hopefully later today.

[Robin Hood]

I think the Americas is far too big to be the promised land. Compare it with the first scriptural promised land and you'll see what I mean.
I also think the US is too big.

It is thought there were all kinds of people in the Americas during the thousand year Nephite presence; they can't all have been brought by the hand of God to a promised land!

So, in my view it has to be a much more limited geography. I don't think places like California or Alaska can be included in Lehi's promise.

[Alaris]

I think the Americas is far too big to be the promised land. Compare it with the first scriptural promised land and you'll see what I mean.
I also think the US is too big.

It is thought there were all kinds of people in the Americas during the thousand year Nephite presence; they can't all have been brought by the hand of God to a promised land!

So, in my view it has to be a much more limited geography. I don't think places like California or Alaska can be included in Lehi's promise.

The borders of ZION may be a good indicator as to what specifically is the promised land.

[Robin Hood]

The borders of ZION may be a good indicator as to what specifically is the promised land.

I assume you're referring to Yorkshire.

[Alaris]

The borders of ZION may be a good indicator as to what specifically is the promised land.

I assume you're referring to Yorkshire.

Yep!

[Sandinista]

I personally believe that Trump is being blackmailed.

We know the Russian Dossier was fabricated. They used that as an excuse to get a special prosecutor. The special prosecutor immediately started hiring dozens of Hillary supporter liberal lawyers and went well beyond the Russian collusion investigation. They obviously found something that could use as justification to get Trump impeached, land him in prison, or at very least something that would be embarrassing if it was released publicly. They are using it as leverage to get Trump to play ball. They would have done it to any candidate who won who wasn't on board with their agenda.

We live in a bloated bureaucratic superstate with millions of laws and regulations. We probably all break the law several times a day without even realizing it. Someone like Trump with multi-billion dollar businesses probably breaks a dozen laws a day, and it's all stored in that data center in Draper.

I don't have any proof, just looking at the empirical evidence.

Interesting take on it. Don't know if it is really the case or not, but makes you think.

[markharr]

I personally believe that Trump is being blackmailed.

We know the Russian Dossier was fabricated. They used that as an excuse to get a special prosecutor. The special prosecutor immediately started hiring dozens of Hillary supporter liberal lawyers and went well beyond the Russian collusion investigation. They obviously found something that could use as justification to get Trump impeached, land him in prison, or at very least something that would be embarrassing if it was released publicly. They are using it as leverage to get Trump to play ball. They would have done it to any candidate who won who wasn't on board with their agenda.

We live in a bloated bureaucratic superstate with millions of laws and regulations. We probably all break the law several times a day without even realizing it. Someone like Trump with multi-billion dollar businesses probably breaks a dozen laws a day, and it's all stored in that data center in Draper.

I don't have any proof, just looking at the empirical evidence.

Interesting take on it. Don't know if it is really the case or not, but makes you think.

It's not just Trump. Edward Snowden has stated that when he started asking too many questions he was called into a meeting with NSA heads where they started listing off information about his girlfriend, and basically making veiled threats.

We lost our government when the patriot act was passed. They now have information on everyone and can blackmail anyone who isn't on board with their agenda including government employees.

NSA snooping hasn't prevented a single terror attack by their own admission.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/nsa- ... 2D11783588

And, there are thousands of abuses per year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 1c04f98a7e

If it isn't accomplishing it's stated goal, and it's rife with abuse, why keep it?

Because it was never about preventing terror. They don't see ISIS, or Iran, or North Korea as the biggest threat. They see the American people as the biggest threat.

[lundbaek]

I agree that "We should also think twice about how we choose to treat those whom the Lord has brought here, by His own hand (and, really, as the result of our own greed.)" Lehi prophesied that "there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by he hand of the Lord." That's clear enough. Now consider carefully that many have come to America who have contributed greatly to its deterioration: for example: the Rothschild agents who financed both sides of the American Civil War, Paul Warburg, Leon Trotsky, Victor Perlo, Bella Dodd (who did repent in her later years), Henry Kissinger, and others whose names elude me at the moment, but who infiltrated into government, education, finance, and communication. (See PROPHETS, PRINCIPLES, AND NATIONAL SURVIVAL by Jerreld Newquist, Pages 222 & 316)

I is my conviction that much if not most of the illegal immigration into America has been fomented for the express purpose of making such a shambles of America in order to facilitate the establishment of a centralized socialist government and submission to regional and then world government. This has been especially apparent to me ever since President G.W. Bush took office and greatly facilitated illegal immigration.

I believe we are bound to accommodate those already here because it was due to our inattention to the machinations of the secret combinations working to destroy America. But I fully support the "wall" and any other means to restrict immigration into America to people who come here legally.

[larsenb]

I agree that "We should also think twice about how we choose to treat those whom the Lord has brought here, by His own hand (and, really, as the result of our own greed.)" Lehi prophesied that "there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by he hand of the Lord." That's clear enough. Now consider carefully that many have come to America who have contributed greatly to its deterioration: for example: the Rothschild agents who financed both sides of the American Civil War, Paul Warburg, Leon Trotsky, Victor Perlo, Bella Dodd (who did repent in her later years), Henry Kissinger, and others whose names elude me at the moment, but who infiltrated into government, education, finance, and communication. (See PROPHETS, PRINCIPLES, AND NATIONAL SURVIVAL by Jerreld Newquist, Pages 222 & 316)

I is my conviction that much if not most of the illegal immigration into America has been fomented for the express purpose of making such a shambles of America in order to facilitate the establishment of a centralized socialist government and submission to regional and then world government. This has been especially apparent to me ever since President G.W. Bush took office and greatly facilitated illegal immigration.

I believe we are bound to accommodate those already here because it was due to our inattention to the machinations of the secret combinations working to destroy America. But I fully support the "wall" and any other means to restrict immigration into America to people who come here legally.

Just a minor correction. Bella Dodd's parents had migrated to America and her mother discovered she was pregnant with Bella on board a ship returning to Italy to conduct some family business. She gave birth to Bella in Italy, but left her there in the care of family friends. I.e., Bella was conceived in America but was only retrieved by her mother back to America when she was 5-6 years old. Her mother had not wanted to subject her to the sailing trip as a tiny baby, but it took 5 years to save enough money for her mother to fetch her back from Italy.

Bella is an example of a highly intelligent, capable person caught up in the cause of social justice, who just finally could no longer stomach the contradictions, irrational course changes, and just plain evil she kept encountering in the Communist Party. She only acceded to higher Party leadership in NY fairly late in her social justice career, having spent most of her time fighting for teacher's and other worker's rights via unions and other means. One of the final straws for her was seeing first hand how the head of the Communist Party of America, Earl Browder, was cast aside and vilified when he no longer served the purposes of the greater Communist machinations directed from the Soviet Union.

For me, she is kind of a Whitaker Chambers kind of person. She wrote an autobiographical book about her life and experiences and lessons learned called: School of Darkness. I've got an autographed copy of the book, in which she wrote: "To Bill Troutman. It is good to meet a fellow patriot from Atlanta. God bless you. Sincerely yours, Dr. Bella Dodd, July 7, 1968." . . . . which shows where her heart ended up.

Her experiences are especially interesting to me, because Earl Browder is a 4th cousin, 3 times removed, to me. Distant, granted; but close enough to make the fellow more interesting to me. One of his grandsons, William Browder, has been tagged as leading the charge in renewing the 'cold war' against Russia.

[LatterDayLizard]

Careful. You seem to want your comment to mean that all who come are brought by the hand of the Lord BECAUSE they are righteous and it is their rightful inheritance, but he brought Laman and Lemuel as well so that they, and their children, could be a scourge unto the righteous decedents of Nephi and turn them to God. Not all who come are righteous. We have plenty of history to prove that.

I agree.

I am not trying to imply that is the purpose of illegal immigrants in God's plan, but your comment (one I've seen from many people before) doesn't actually imply what you seem to want it to mean.

I don't follow what you said here.

Also, is just America the promised land? What about Mexico and Canada, maybe South America as well?

Take a look at 1 Nephi 13.

Second, we do believe in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law.

I agree.

What if America denied the sovereignty of Mexico and said, "We're sick of how things are going. Your decisions and choices are affecting us to heavily. We're going to send a whole bunch of people in uninvited to change things." Would you defend the USA in doing so?

I wasn't attempting to tackle a solution to illegal immigration. I was addressing DACA, which deals with the aftermath of illegal immigration. But since you asked, no I would not defend that.

I went through the immigration process with my first husband, from Mexico. I grant you it is not easy. I have many friends who have gone through the process as well and many who skirted the law.

I have seen first hand how those who refuse to obey the law, hurt those who do obey the law. If you want the Lord's blessings, you have to do it in the Lord's way.

All true

Finally, wanting something a lot is not the same as it being the right answer. Christ asked his Heavenly Father if he could avoid drinking the bitter cup of the Atonement, but at the same time, said "Thy will be done."

Those who come here illegally are not submitting to the law. They are making their own law. One of the biggest problems with that is that we are a nation of laws. The rule of law has set us apart in the world and led to great progress and prosperity. Breaking laws, instead of working to change laws, would be our downfall. We must ask, if one will break this law, what keeps him from breaking another law?

Perhaps, but the children of illegal immigrants did not break any laws themselves. And I used the example of speeding to illustrate how mercy can function w/in a law abiding society.

Finally, there are victims. In order to work here many of my former family members would get fake SS cards. Those fake cards affected real people. Identity theft is not a joke. It is a life changer. It is the worst kind of theft because it steals not only your temporal goods, but your opportunities as well. Not OK.

This is one of the many problems associated with illegal immigration which congress has been remiss in dealing with.

Now, I agree that life is difficult and dangerous in many places and that is why people choose to leave. But for every person that comes illegally, there are those that would have been invited legally that are left behind. What of their lives? Why is one more important than another? No offense intended, but I prefer the law abiding immigrant to the illegal.

They are not more important than those who are patiently waiting, but they are here nonetheless, in part because we left the door wide open.

So, what about the kids? Do you really want to teach your kids that it is ok to break the law as long as you don't get caught or at least caught for a long time? Do you want them to think that the rules don't apply to them, as long as they really want something? Parents make choices every day that affect their kids lives forever. Some good, some bad. Why do we hold this consequence above others? People move from one country to another everyday. Some require more adjustments than others. Besides, if your parents are from that country, you at least have an advantage as to culture and how to get along compared to those who do not have family from the area. Why not be glad for your time here and use what you learned to improve your country of origin?

Because this is their home. Again, they didn't choose to come. Sending them away would be like placing a child for adoption then having their birth mother show up 9 yrs later and having her take the child back. Legal, yes, but wrong on so many levels. Cohesive families and a healthy childhood should be our #1 priority, otherwise we set the stage for delinquency (a scourge).

Not everyone will live in America. That is ok. Not everyone wants to. That is ok too. We don't get everything we want in life. And it would not be good for us if we did.

And yet they are here. Have you considered that aside from those who have ill intent and who were permitted to come as a scourge among us, there are also those who the Lord has brought here because there was no other way in? Immigration is not open to all, especially among the poor south of the border. Do you think the Lord cares what job skills they bring? Immigration law is for man, yes, but the Lord's work is not bound by it. "No unhallowed hand..."

Integrity is vital to salvation. No one stands over God's shoulder to make sure he follows the rules. If we want to be like him, we have to do what is right, even when no one is watching and even if we don't get caught.

All true. But then there are those, like Jean Val Jean, who have run out of options. And they may not have the strength of conviction that comes because of your faith. Perhaps they were brought here to find it.

Finally, I agree that we should let more people come. But that requires changing the law, not breaking it. That is essentially what Trump is doing. Obama broke the law, Trump is giving it back to Congress and saying "This was broken when I got here, and since it is rightfully yours, I am giving it back to you to fix."

True. We should be seeking out those who came here because they truly were that desperate. The law should serve us in endeavoring to do so.

America is our home, and like every country on the planet, we get to choose who comes in the front door.

Actually, the Lord does. ;) But yes, you're right. We do have that responsibility, and should have been taking it seriously years ago.
We still need laws to accept people in an orderly fashion and at least attempt to keep out smugglers and gang bangers. Our leaders have neglected enforcing what's already on the books for decades and now we have as many illegals as we do because of our own negligence. We can't just say " whatever, come on in!" but we also don't need to be hard nosed and unmerciful with those who are here when we've been fostering for decades a culture of looking the other way. Especially when there are innocent victims and those who legitimately were fleeing from danger among the throngs.

(PS, There are plenty of laws here I don't like, but I still follow them. There are also legal things I believe to be contrary to God's laws, morally wrong, that I don't take advantage of even when eligible: like welfare. We still have agency.)

And that's right! But if you didn't have that faith and your family was starving and there was no recourse...or if your son was being hunted by local gang recruiters...or if you were uneducated, isolated, and had no idea what you were getting yourself into when you gave your life savings to a coyote who promised you the moon, only to end up as a sex slave or working in sweat shop conditions, indebted to your employer and unable to leave...

As we try to hammer out how to move forward with legislative changes, enforcement, etc. all I'm saying is let's not forget who the real victims are and what our responsibilities are towards them as disciples of Christ. DACA is one way we can try to remedy the side effects. I truly believe God will care more at the end of the day with how we treated his children (yes, while we enforce our laws) than He will with what party line we towed or what position we took on immigration reform.

Edit: Whoops, lots of "finally"s. I was interrupted a lot while typing. lol

3 yr old in my house. I totally get it.

[lundbaek]

John Nolte of Breitbart news, gives a rundown of all the emotional blackmail the mainstream media (MSM) are trying to tag America with, along with the 20 things about DACA the media won’t tell you:

Man alive, the emotional blackmail.

If your only understanding of this complicated issue comes from the MSM, of course you are outraged over the fact that Trump is about [to] order an army of jackbooted ICE agents to kick in daycare center doors, snatch up all the “brown children,” and then hurl the angelic toddlers (with actual rings of gold hovering over their heads) into cattle cars headed south.

Hopefully the list below will offer some clarity and context. The first point, I think, is the most important.

1. This Is Only the Fault of the Parents: My wife was born in Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, and came to America as a small child. But she was brought here by her parents legally and remained here legally until she obtained her citizenship, something she prizes above most everything else. This is how immigration is supposed to work. If you ask my wife about DACA, she blames the parents of these children who, unlike her own parents, broke the law and put their children in this situation.

If your parents don’t pay the rent, is it the landlord’s fault when you are evicted, or is it the fault of your parents? If your parents sneak you into Disneyland without paying, is it Disney’s fault when you are booted out, or is it the fault of your parents? If your parents sneak you into a country illegally, is it the country’s fault when you get deported, or is it the fault of your parents?

2. DACA Recipients Are Illegal Aliens: This simple fact has been so downplayed and memory-holed, it just needed to be spoken out loud.

3. DACA Is a Massive Amnesty Program: Although the DREAMers are in the country illegally, DACA allows some 800,000 to stay in the country legally without any kind of penalty. Qualified DREAMers are not only given a two-year deferment from deportation, they are eligible for a work permit, which means they can legally take a job in America.

4. DACA Recipients Are Not the Children: DACA is eligible only to those aged 15-32. A very large percentage of DACA recipients are adults, not children or even minors.

5. DACA Recipients Take Jobs Americans WILL Do: The idea that illegal aliens take jobs Americans won’t do is, of course, a lie. Plenty of Americans, most especially young Americans, would love the opportunity to work on a construction site or some other manual labor job. Moreover, if the wages were better, plenty of American would be willing to work in the fields. An untold number of young Americans who live in farm communities already do. But when you flood the country with illegal and/or foreign workers this — by design — suppresses wages to a point where only those willing to be exploited are willing to do this work for almost no money.

Nevertheless, even this lie does not apply to DREAMers, many of whom have a high school diploma or a GED, and a work permit. These are not field workers, these are hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens competing for the same jobs against the 4 million young Americans who enter the workforce every year.

6. Some DACA Recipients are Criminals: Over 5 years, between 2013 and 2017, a total of 2,139 DACA recipients lost their amnesty benefits “due to criminality or gang affiliated concerns.” The DACA screening process is in reality a joke, a rubber stamp.

7. DACA Is Not a Law, It Is the Violation of Law: President Obama’s DACA program is not a law or even a policy. Rather, it is a brazen violation of the immigration law as written and passed by the American people’s representatives in congress. People in the country illegally are supposed to be deported and repatriated into their own country. That is the law here in America. That is the law in every country in the world, including Mexico.

8. Most DACA Recipients are Not Overachievers: It seems as though every time we see a DACA recipient in the media, he or she is the next Albert Einstein, someone on the verge of curing cancer and poverty.

The reality is actually quite different: “The [DACA] eligibility bar was set very low, explicitly allowing people with multiple misdemeanor and certain felony convictions to be approved. Only a handful of the applicants were ever interviewed, and only rarely was the information on the application ever verified,” said Jessica M. Vaughan, director of policy studies at the Washington-based Center for Immigration Studies….

“[T]his statistic undercuts the image of DACA that has been spread by the pro-illegal alien groups and the news media, that the DACA recipients are mostly college kids. This is not true. We don’t know much about the population, but one of the few credible studies that has been done, by a scholar at Harvard University, found that at most are more than 22 years old, and only about 20 percent graduated from or attended a four-year college. A significant share never went beyond high school. This is not really all that surprising, since over 72 percent come from a family at or below poverty level and accessing some public assistance.”

9. DACA Is Wildly Unfair to Americans, Most Especially Young Americans Just Starting Out: You followed the rules. Your parents obeyed the law. You are one of the 4 million Americans ready to enter the workforce every year, eager to begin your own life, to pursue the American dream, but you have to compete against hundreds of thousands of line-jumpers for the same entry-level job.

10. DACA Was Already Litigated and Debated in 2016: The American people have already had the DACA debate. Hillary Clinton promised to expand DACA. Trump promised to end DACA. Trump won.

11. DACA Encourages More Illegal Immigrants: Although DACA does not officially grant amnesty to the children of illegal immigrants who have arrived after 2007, the message is still clear: America does not have the will to enforce its own immigration laws. Of course that message works as a magnet for illegals. If you recall…

Obama declared his DACA amnesty in 2012. Central Americans saw the announcement, read the details — and roughly 400,000 people headed north during the next four years... In Most States, DACA Recipients are Eligible for Welfare Benefits

Obama’s deputies low-balled his election-campaign giveaway by initially predicting it would only reach about 560,000 younger illegals who were supposedly brought into the United States by their parents before they turned 16.

But the amnesty has already provided almost 900,000 work-permits and Social Security cards to illegals who say they are aged 36 or less. More than 92 percent of the applicants got their DACA approvals, with a rejection rate of only 7 percent. The amnesty is expected to rise above 1.9 million people as additional younger illegals become adults and try to enroll in Obama’s giveaway.

12. DACA Ignores Some Criminal Behavior: Center for Immigration Studies: “DACA applies to individuals up to age 31 (as of June 2012, so 35 now) — hardly children; consequently, many Dreamers have long-since terminated their studies and most have committed multiple felonies in order to get jobs — Social Security fraud, forgery, perjury on I-9 forms, falsification of green cards and drivers’ licenses, identity theft, etc. Dreamers continue to commit these job-related crimes right up to the day their DACA status is approved and they obtain work permits and their own genuine Social Security numbers.

In addition, many illegal aliens qualifying for DACA status have previously been arrested and convicted of multiple misdemeanors and some have previously been or continue to be associated with violent gangs, as evidenced by a report in the Seattle Times that states that over 1,500 Dreamers have had their DACA status revoked since 2012 due to their involvement with criminal gangs.

My source for this in the World Affairs Brief of 9/8/2017. I still maintain that much if not most of the illegal immigration into America has been fomented by globalists / latter-day gadiantons for the express purpose of making such a shambles of America in order to facilitate the establishment of a centralized socialist government and submission to regional and then world government. This has been especially apparent to me ever since President G.W. Bush took office and greatly facilitated illegal immigration. And I believe we are bound to accommodate those already here because it was facilitated in large part because of our inattention to the machinations of the secret combinations working to destroy America, our failure to awake to a sense of our awful situation.

[JohnnyL]

"But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of MY SEED. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto ME, and to MY children forever, AND ALSO all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be BROUGHT BY THE HAND OF THE LORD."

I'm sure this also includes drug lords, cartel members, Russian mafia, terrorists, etc.
What should we do with them?
If they come by the hand of the Lord, does that somehow mean we can't send them back?

[LatterDayLizard]

"But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of MY SEED. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto ME, and to MY children forever, AND ALSO all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be BROUGHT BY THE HAND OF THE LORD."

I'm sure this also includes drug lords, cartel members, Russian mafia, terrorists, etc.
What should we do with them?
If they come by the hand of the Lord, does that somehow mean we can't send them back?

No, it doesn't. What it means is that we would do well to pressure congress to pass DACA, or something in that same spirit.

[LatterDayLizard]

John Nolte of Breitbart news, gives a rundown of all the emotional blackmail the mainstream media (MSM) are trying to tag America with, along with the 20 things about DACA the media won’t tell you:

Man alive, the emotional blackmail.

If your only understanding of this complicated issue comes from the MSM, of course you are outraged over the fact that Trump is about [to] order an army of jackbooted ICE agents to kick in daycare center doors, snatch up all the “brown children,” and then hurl the angelic toddlers (with actual rings of gold hovering over their heads) into cattle cars headed south.

Hopefully the list below will offer some clarity and context. The first point, I think, is the most important.

1. This Is Only the Fault of the Parents: My wife was born in Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, and came to America as a small child. But she was brought here by her parents legally and remained here legally until she obtained her citizenship, something she prizes above most everything else. This is how immigration is supposed to work. If you ask my wife about DACA, she blames the parents of these children who, unlike her own parents, broke the law and put their children in this situation.

If your parents don’t pay the rent, is it the landlord’s fault when you are evicted, or is it the fault of your parents? If your parents sneak you into Disneyland without paying, is it Disney’s fault when you are booted out, or is it the fault of your parents? If your parents sneak you into a country illegally, is it the country’s fault when you get deported, or is it the fault of your parents?

2. DACA Recipients Are Illegal Aliens: This simple fact has been so downplayed and memory-holed, it just needed to be spoken out loud.

3. DACA Is a Massive Amnesty Program: Although the DREAMers are in the country illegally, DACA allows some 800,000 to stay in the country legally without any kind of penalty. Qualified DREAMers are not only given a two-year deferment from deportation, they are eligible for a work permit, which means they can legally take a job in America.

4. DACA Recipients Are Not the Children: DACA is eligible only to those aged 15-32. A very large percentage of DACA recipients are adults, not children or even minors.

5. DACA Recipients Take Jobs Americans WILL Do: The idea that illegal aliens take jobs Americans won’t do is, of course, a lie. Plenty of Americans, most especially young Americans, would love the opportunity to work on a construction site or some other manual labor job. Moreover, if the wages were better, plenty of American would be willing to work in the fields. An untold number of young Americans who live in farm communities already do. But when you flood the country with illegal and/or foreign workers this — by design — suppresses wages to a point where only those willing to be exploited are willing to do this work for almost no money.

Nevertheless, even this lie does not apply to DREAMers, many of whom have a high school diploma or a GED, and a work permit. These are not field workers, these are hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens competing for the same jobs against the 4 million young Americans who enter the workforce every year.

6. Some DACA Recipients are Criminals: Over 5 years, between 2013 and 2017, a total of 2,139 DACA recipients lost their amnesty benefits “due to criminality or gang affiliated concerns.” The DACA screening process is in reality a joke, a rubber stamp.

7. DACA Is Not a Law, It Is the Violation of Law: President Obama’s DACA program is not a law or even a policy. Rather, it is a brazen violation of the immigration law as written and passed by the American people’s representatives in congress. People in the country illegally are supposed to be deported and repatriated into their own country. That is the law here in America. That is the law in every country in the world, including Mexico.

8. Most DACA Recipients are Not Overachievers: It seems as though every time we see a DACA recipient in the media, he or she is the next Albert Einstein, someone on the verge of curing cancer and poverty.

The reality is actually quite different: “The [DACA] eligibility bar was set very low, explicitly allowing people with multiple misdemeanor and certain felony convictions to be approved. Only a handful of the applicants were ever interviewed, and only rarely was the information on the application ever verified,” said Jessica M. Vaughan, director of policy studies at the Washington-based Center for Immigration Studies….

“[T]his statistic undercuts the image of DACA that has been spread by the pro-illegal alien groups and the news media, that the DACA recipients are mostly college kids. This is not true. We don’t know much about the population, but one of the few credible studies that has been done, by a scholar at Harvard University, found that at most are more than 22 years old, and only about 20 percent graduated from or attended a four-year college. A significant share never went beyond high school. This is not really all that surprising, since over 72 percent come from a family at or below poverty level and accessing some public assistance.”

9. DACA Is Wildly Unfair to Americans, Most Especially Young Americans Just Starting Out: You followed the rules. Your parents obeyed the law. You are one of the 4 million Americans ready to enter the workforce every year, eager to begin your own life, to pursue the American dream, but you have to compete against hundreds of thousands of line-jumpers for the same entry-level job.

10. DACA Was Already Litigated and Debated in 2016: The American people have already had the DACA debate. Hillary Clinton promised to expand DACA. Trump promised to end DACA. Trump won.

11. DACA Encourages More Illegal Immigrants: Although DACA does not officially grant amnesty to the children of illegal immigrants who have arrived after 2007, the message is still clear: America does not have the will to enforce its own immigration laws. Of course that message works as a magnet for illegals. If you recall…

Obama declared his DACA amnesty in 2012. Central Americans saw the announcement, read the details — and roughly 400,000 people headed north during the next four years... In Most States, DACA Recipients are Eligible for Welfare Benefits

Obama’s deputies low-balled his election-campaign giveaway by initially predicting it would only reach about 560,000 younger illegals who were supposedly brought into the United States by their parents before they turned 16.

But the amnesty has already provided almost 900,000 work-permits and Social Security cards to illegals who say they are aged 36 or less. More than 92 percent of the applicants got their DACA approvals, with a rejection rate of only 7 percent. The amnesty is expected to rise above 1.9 million people as additional younger illegals become adults and try to enroll in Obama’s giveaway.

12. DACA Ignores Some Criminal Behavior: Center for Immigration Studies: “DACA applies to individuals up to age 31 (as of June 2012, so 35 now) — hardly children; consequently, many Dreamers have long-since terminated their studies and most have committed multiple felonies in order to get jobs — Social Security fraud, forgery, perjury on I-9 forms, falsification of green cards and drivers’ licenses, identity theft, etc. Dreamers continue to commit these job-related crimes right up to the day their DACA status is approved and they obtain work permits and their own genuine Social Security numbers.

In addition, many illegal aliens qualifying for DACA status have previously been arrested and convicted of multiple misdemeanors and some have previously been or continue to be associated with violent gangs, as evidenced by a report in the Seattle Times that states that over 1,500 Dreamers have had their DACA status revoked since 2012 due to their involvement with criminal gangs.

My source for this in the World Affairs Brief of 9/8/2017. I still maintain that much if not most of the illegal immigration into America has been fomented by globalists / latter-day gadiantons for the express purpose of making such a shambles of America in order to facilitate the establishment of a centralized socialist government and submission to regional and then world government. This has been especially apparent to me ever since President G.W. Bush took office and greatly facilitated illegal immigration. And I believe we are bound to accommodate those already here because it was facilitated in large part because of our inattention to the machinations of the secret combinations working to destroy America, our failure to awake to a sense of our awful situation.

None of this comes as a surprise or changes my opinion about DACA. Illegal aliens charged with violent crimes are not protected by DACA, they only remain here because someone isn't enforcing the law. If there are flaws in DACA (likely) I'm sure our republican congress can fix it.
....................ok, well that merely illustrates a much bigger problem inside our government.

Also, talk to Mike Rowe. There are lots of jobs unclaimed by the children of illegal aliens.

[JohnnyL]

Why should someone who comes illegally get free run of everything, while someone who tries to come legally, has to fill out multiple forms, wait months or years, have to pay a lot of money, and have to have a financial sponsor?

Is this right?!

///

Besides, if you are American born in a foreign country, you can (and will) be conscripted (forced to join the military and serve your time). Is that right?! Yet that's the law every such American is under.

///

If you are an American illegally in another country, in general YOU WILL GET DEPORTED. If you are legally in a country but break your restrictions (work without a work permit, even "small jobs" like tutoring or babysitting, etc.), in general YOU WILL GET DEPORTED, or if they are nice, you will lose your visa and need to leave (won't be able to extend, etc.). And you will pay a fine, and have restrictions put on your passport--next time you get caught, you will in all likelihood be put in jail.

[JohnnyL]

BTW, about the third part (American illegally in other country)--no court date, no lawyer, no protesting, no nothing--it's done. You're gone.