Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

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Joel
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by Joel »

Officer who arrested U of U nurse fired as part-time paramedic

(KUTV) Gold Cross Ambulance has fired Jeff Payne, the officer who arrested a nurse at the University of Utah.

Payne was a part time paramedic for the Utah ambulance service.The termination was announced in a press release Tuesday from Gold Cross that said in part, "...we take his inappropriate remarks regarding patient transports seriously." The company said it would "continue to maintain our values of outstanding patient focused care, safety, and the complete trust of the communities we serve."

The termination is effective immediately.

Payne has received national attention since he arrested nurse Alex Wubbles who denied him access to a patient to draw blood. She said his arrest was assault. Video of the arrest from Payne's body camera was released. Since Wubbles approached the media, University of Utah Hospital police, have issued an apology for not protecting her.

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Joel
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by Joel »

Utah hospital to police: Stay away from our nurses

The University of Utah Hospital, where a nurse was manhandled and arrested by police as she protected the legal rights of a patient, has imposed new restrictions on law enforcement, including barring officers from patient-care areas and from direct contact with nurses.

Gordon Crabtree, interim chief executive of the hospital, said at a Monday news conference that he was “deeply troubled” by the arrest and manhandling of burn unit nurse Alex Wubbels on July 26. In accord with hospital policy and the law, she had refused to allow a Salt Lake City police officer to take a blood sample from an unconscious patient. Wubbels obtained a copy of the body cam video of the confrontation and, after consulting her lawyer, the hospital and police officials, released it last week.

“This will not happen again,” Crabtree said, praising Wubbels for “putting her own safety at risk” to “protect the rights of patients.”

Margaret Pearce, chief nursing officer for the University of Utah hospital system, said she was “appalled” by the officer’s actions and has already implemented changes in hospital protocol to avoid any repetition.

She said police will no longer be permitted in patient-care areas, such as the burn unit where Wubbels was the charge nurse on the day of the incident and from emergency rooms.

In addition, officers will have to deal with “house supervisors” instead of nurses when they have a request.

This will guarantee that nurses devote themselves entirely to patient care without interruptions, she said, while other officials deal with police requests.

The policy was implemented in August, before the incident became public.

The incident, which has attracted nationwide attention in part because of the dramatic video, involved Detective Jeff Payne, who persisted in demanding a blood sample from an unconscious truck driver at the hospital who had earlier been involved in an accident stemming from police pursuit of a suspect.

The hospital and the law in Utah and nationwide require police to have a warrant or permission from the patient to draw a blood sample in such circumstances. Payne had neither.

After Wubbels politely and repeatedly read hospital policy to him and had a supervisor back her up on a speakerphone connection, Payne snapped. He seized hold of the nurse, shoved her out of the building and cuffed her hands behind her back. A bewildered Wubbels screamed “help me” and “you’re assaulting me” as the detective forced her into an unmarked car and accused her of interfering with an investigation.

On Friday, the police department said two of its employees had been placed on administrative leave pending the results of an investigation but did not give details. A criminal investigation is underway, according to Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill, and the city’s mayor and its police chief apologized to Wubbels in a statement.

Wubbels recounted the altercation with Payne in interviews with NBC’s “Today” show and CNN’s “New Day” on Monday morning. She told “Today” hosts that weeks after the incident she didn’t feel like police were being held accountable.

“The conversations I had with the Salt Lake City police initially were progressive, they wanted to walk down a path of positive change. But I did not have that same response from the university police and the university security,” Wubbels said. “So it was a little bit of a trigger to say, all right, this is what you need to see. If you’re not willing to see it then I’ll show it to you.”

Wubbels told “Today” that she didn’t want to “police the police,” but said she and her attorney were considering a lawsuit if the departments involved in the incident didn’t update their policies.

On CNN’s “New Day,” Wubbels said she felt betrayed by both Salt Lake City police and university security. She described how she tried to get guards to intervene, saying that Payne seemed angry from the moment he arrived. In the video, university officers can be seen standing by as Payne violently arrests the nurse.

“I was scared to death,” Wubbels said. “I went down into the emergency department to get help, to have someone protect me because I felt unsafe from Officer Payne from the beginning.”

In Monday’s news conference, University of Utah Police Chief Dale Brophy apologized to Wubbels and hospital staff for his early response to the incident. He said he didn’t watch the body camera footage until Thursday evening and realized then that he didn’t take it seriously enough.

“I was able to see firsthand how poorly this situation was handled,” Brophy said. “This is not how law enforcement professionals should act.” He added that Wubbels “should not have been subjected to arrest for doing her job” and vowed to put his officers through de-escalation training.

The patient Wubbels sought to protect was 43-year-old William Gray, a truck driver who is also a reserve officer with the police department in Rigby, Idaho. Gray was driving down the highway near Logan, Utah, when a suspect fleeing police crossed into oncoming traffic and crashed head-on into his tractor trailer. The truck caught fire, and Gray was severely burned in the blaze. The suspect died in the crash.

The Rigby Police Department praised Wubbels’s professionalism in a statement Friday and thanked her for “standing firm.”

“Protecting the rights of others is a truly heroic act,” the statement read.

Gray was still recovering in the hospital, according to the department. He was not suspected of any wrongdoing in connection with the crash.

Wubbels, 41, has worked as a nurse at the hospital since 2009. She was previously a member of the U.S. alpine ski team and competed in the 1998 and 2002 Winter Olympics. “I think many of you know she was an Olympian,” Crabtree said. “In this event she was truly an Olympic-size hero.”

Hospital officials said she returned to the burn unit about a week and a half after the arrest. Wubbels said Monday she needed the time to “give my emotions a rest so that I could come out and be pragmatic and effective in my communication.”

“I stood my ground. I stood for what was right, which was to protect the patient,” Wubbels told CNN. “Any nurse, I think, would have done exactly what I did.”

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Joel wrote: September 5th, 2017, 5:29 pm
Utah hospital to police: Stay away from our nurses

The University of Utah Hospital, where a nurse was manhandled and arrested by police as she protected the legal rights of a patient, has imposed new restrictions on law enforcement, including barring officers from patient-care areas and from direct contact with nurses.

Gordon Crabtree, interim chief executive of the hospital, said at a Monday news conference that he was “deeply troubled” by the arrest and manhandling of burn unit nurse Alex Wubbels on July 26. In accord with hospital policy and the law, she had refused to allow a Salt Lake City police officer to take a blood sample from an unconscious patient. Wubbels obtained a copy of the body cam video of the confrontation and, after consulting her lawyer, the hospital and police officials, released it last week.

“This will not happen again,” Crabtree said, praising Wubbels for “putting her own safety at risk” to “protect the rights of patients.”

Margaret Pearce, chief nursing officer for the University of Utah hospital system, said she was “appalled” by the officer’s actions and has already implemented changes in hospital protocol to avoid any repetition.

She said police will no longer be permitted in patient-care areas, such as the burn unit where Wubbels was the charge nurse on the day of the incident and from emergency rooms.

In addition, officers will have to deal with “house supervisors” instead of nurses when they have a request.

This will guarantee that nurses devote themselves entirely to patient care without interruptions, she said, while other officials deal with police requests.

The policy was implemented in August, before the incident became public.

The incident, which has attracted nationwide attention in part because of the dramatic video, involved Detective Jeff Payne, who persisted in demanding a blood sample from an unconscious truck driver at the hospital who had earlier been involved in an accident stemming from police pursuit of a suspect.

The hospital and the law in Utah and nationwide require police to have a warrant or permission from the patient to draw a blood sample in such circumstances. Payne had neither.

After Wubbels politely and repeatedly read hospital policy to him and had a supervisor back her up on a speakerphone connection, Payne snapped. He seized hold of the nurse, shoved her out of the building and cuffed her hands behind her back. A bewildered Wubbels screamed “help me” and “you’re assaulting me” as the detective forced her into an unmarked car and accused her of interfering with an investigation.

On Friday, the police department said two of its employees had been placed on administrative leave pending the results of an investigation but did not give details. A criminal investigation is underway, according to Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill, and the city’s mayor and its police chief apologized to Wubbels in a statement.

Wubbels recounted the altercation with Payne in interviews with NBC’s “Today” show and CNN’s “New Day” on Monday morning. She told “Today” hosts that weeks after the incident she didn’t feel like police were being held accountable.

“The conversations I had with the Salt Lake City police initially were progressive, they wanted to walk down a path of positive change. But I did not have that same response from the university police and the university security,” Wubbels said. “So it was a little bit of a trigger to say, all right, this is what you need to see. If you’re not willing to see it then I’ll show it to you.”

Wubbels told “Today” that she didn’t want to “police the police,” but said she and her attorney were considering a lawsuit if the departments involved in the incident didn’t update their policies.

On CNN’s “New Day,” Wubbels said she felt betrayed by both Salt Lake City police and university security. She described how she tried to get guards to intervene, saying that Payne seemed angry from the moment he arrived. In the video, university officers can be seen standing by as Payne violently arrests the nurse.

“I was scared to death,” Wubbels said. “I went down into the emergency department to get help, to have someone protect me because I felt unsafe from Officer Payne from the beginning.”

In Monday’s news conference, University of Utah Police Chief Dale Brophy apologized to Wubbels and hospital staff for his early response to the incident. He said he didn’t watch the body camera footage until Thursday evening and realized then that he didn’t take it seriously enough.

“I was able to see firsthand how poorly this situation was handled,” Brophy said. “This is not how law enforcement professionals should act.” He added that Wubbels “should not have been subjected to arrest for doing her job” and vowed to put his officers through de-escalation training.

The patient Wubbels sought to protect was 43-year-old William Gray, a truck driver who is also a reserve officer with the police department in Rigby, Idaho. Gray was driving down the highway near Logan, Utah, when a suspect fleeing police crossed into oncoming traffic and crashed head-on into his tractor trailer. The truck caught fire, and Gray was severely burned in the blaze. The suspect died in the crash.

The Rigby Police Department praised Wubbels’s professionalism in a statement Friday and thanked her for “standing firm.”

“Protecting the rights of others is a truly heroic act,” the statement read.

Gray was still recovering in the hospital, according to the department. He was not suspected of any wrongdoing in connection with the crash.

Wubbels, 41, has worked as a nurse at the hospital since 2009. She was previously a member of the U.S. alpine ski team and competed in the 1998 and 2002 Winter Olympics. “I think many of you know she was an Olympian,” Crabtree said. “In this event she was truly an Olympic-size hero.”

Hospital officials said she returned to the burn unit about a week and a half after the arrest. Wubbels said Monday she needed the time to “give my emotions a rest so that I could come out and be pragmatic and effective in my communication.”

“I stood my ground. I stood for what was right, which was to protect the patient,” Wubbels told CNN. “Any nurse, I think, would have done exactly what I did.”
I found it interesting that Payne would accuse Wubbels of interfering with an investigation. This is usually used as a contempt of cop charge. But in Utah, failure to act does not constitute interference, someone has to actually do something that interferes.

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Elizabeth
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by Elizabeth »

She did not have to fight, scream and yell nor resist arrest, which is a serious matter in itself, whether you think you are in the right or not.

buffalo_girl
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by buffalo_girl »

She did not have to fight, scream and yell nor resist arrest, which is a serious matter in itself, whether you think you are in the right or not.

Why do you think she screamed & yelled?

I didn't see her 'resist arrest'.

Officer Payne's arrest was illegal. Alex Wubbels read the law to Officer Payne several times and was also supported by her supervisor via cell phone as to the illegal demand to draw blood.

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David13
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by David13 »

Elizabeth wrote: September 5th, 2017, 6:35 pm She did not have to fight, scream and yell nor resist arrest, which is a serious matter in itself, whether you think you are in the right or not.

Exactly. There was no need for that ridiculous squealing like a stuck pig. Total lack of decorum.
If you are going in, go in. Never mind the histrionics. What is she, a ham actor, bucking for a role on some sleazy tv show? Maybe "Jerry"?
Show some dignity, take it like a man. Or, in her case, a woman, not a screaming banshee.
dc

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David13
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by David13 »

buffalo_girl wrote: September 5th, 2017, 6:57 pm
She did not have to fight, scream and yell nor resist arrest, which is a serious matter in itself, whether you think you are in the right or not.

Why do you think she screamed & yelled?

I didn't see her 'resist arrest'.

Officer Payne's arrest was illegal. Alex Wubbels read the law to Officer Payne several times and was also supported by her supervisor via cell phone as to the illegal demand to draw blood.
"Why do you think she screamed & yelled?"

To play up the victim card, big time. To be able to allege all kinds of nonsensical maladies, diseases, aliments, and mental disorders that she will now have, all as a result of this minor, minor, minor incident. Therefore ... $$$
It's like Benny Hill said, "and then compensation set in".
dc

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Elizabeth wrote: September 5th, 2017, 6:35 pm She did not have to fight, scream and yell nor resist arrest, which is a serious matter in itself, whether you think you are in the right or not.
Actually you do have the right to resist an illegal arrest because it is not an arrest, it is an assault(attack) and kidnap(take them and keep them).
Both of which are criminal actions.

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Elizabeth
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by Elizabeth »

How is that to be determined at the time? Meanwhile, the chance has passed to determine whether the patient was driving under the influence or not.

Lizzy60
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by Lizzy60 »

Elizabeth wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:23 pm How is that to be determined at the time? Meanwhile, the chance has passed to determine whether the patient was driving under the influence or not.
The patient was just a random person hit by the driver who had been speeding, and when police tried to pull him over, he crossed into oncoming traffic and hit the truck driver, who never had a chance to avoid the accident. It was not necessary to get a blood sample, as the police already knew he didn't cause the accident.

A few years ago I was T-boned by a person charging off a side street. She had a stop sign, and I had right-of-way. There were several witnesses, and when I talked with the police officer while the tow truck was scooping up my car, I asked him if the report was clear that I didn't have any causation in the accident. He said, ma'am, you could have been texting, speeding, and sitting on the roof of your car, and you wouldn't have any responsibility for this accident. He never suggested taking a blood sample. At least some officers have some common sense.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Elizabeth wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:23 pm How is that to be determined at the time? Meanwhile, the chance has passed to determine whether the patient was driving under the influence or not.
By being informed.
Know the law. Know your rights. Insist that cops don't violate your rights and stay within the law.
Nurse Wubbel knew the law and insisted that the cop stayed within it. When being assaulted,
she knew her rights were being violated insisted he stop and pleaded that the other cops protect her rights.
That part didn't work so she has the right to seek redress for herself and prosecution for ALL the cops.

Here is an example, do you know if the state you live in is a stop and identify state or not?
do you even know what your legal obligations are to identify in a stop and identify state?
do you even know what your legal obligations are to identify in a non stop and identify state?
do you know what questions from a cop you have a legal obligation to answer and which ones you don't.
do you know under what conditions a cop can detain or arrest you?
do you know the difference between detainment and arrest?

buffalo_girl
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by buffalo_girl »

Meanwhile, the chance has passed to determine whether the patient was driving under the influence or not

Have you read the accounts of the accident?

The driver of the semi-truck did NOT cause the accident.

A pickup driven by someone behaving erratically, slammed into the semi causing an explosive fire while being pursued by law enforcement. The driver being pursued by police died at the scene.

The semi-driver was critically injured and burned. He remains hospitalized.

WHY would anyone think it appropriate to draw blood from an unconscious victim of a horrific accident? He was in critical care in the University of Utah Hospital Burn Unit. The man was in a coma!

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Lizzy60 wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:33 pm
Elizabeth wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:23 pm How is that to be determined at the time? Meanwhile, the chance has passed to determine whether the patient was driving under the influence or not.
The patient was just a random person hit by the driver who had been speeding, and when police tried to pull him over, he crossed into oncoming traffic and hit the truck driver, who never had a chance to avoid the accident. It was not necessary to get a blood sample, as the police already knew he didn't cause the accident.

A few years ago I was T-boned by a person charging off a side street. She had a stop sign, and I had right-of-way. There were several witnesses, and when I talked with the police officer while the tow truck was scooping up my car, I asked him if the report was clear that I didn't have any causation in the accident. He said, ma'am, you could have been texting, speeding, and sitting on the roof of your car, and you wouldn't have any responsibility for this accident. He never suggested taking a blood sample. At least some officers have some common sense.
And from what I have read, treatment at the scene would have made the blood test mote.
It has been suggested that this particular pursuit was against department policy so they were
looking for something to cover up with, to try to shift at least some of the blame on the patient.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Posts: 636

Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:35 pm
Elizabeth wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:23 pm How is that to be determined at the time? Meanwhile, the chance has passed to determine whether the patient was driving under the influence or not.
By being informed.
Know the law. Know your rights. Insist that cops don't violate your rights and stay within the law.
Nurse Wubbel knew the law and insisted that the cop stayed within it. When being assaulted,
she knew her rights were being violated insisted he stop and pleaded that the other cops protect her rights.
That part didn't work so she has the right to seek redress for herself and prosecution for ALL the cops.

Here is an example, do you know if the state you live in is a stop and identify state or not?
do you even know what your legal obligations are to identify in a stop and identify state?
do you even know what your legal obligations are to identify in a non stop and identify state?
do you know what questions from a cop you have a legal obligation to answer and which ones you don't.
do you know under what conditions a cop can detain or arrest you?
do you know the difference between detainment and arrest?
I decided I should inform you.
In a stop and identify state, you have to give you name and some other qualifying data depending on your state
when the cop has reasonable and articulable suspicion that you have committed, are committing or will soon commit a crime.

In a non stop and identify state you are obliged to give your information only after being arrested for a crime,
which requires probable cause. a higher standard than reasonable and articulable suspicion.

Other that that every other question they ask should be answered with "I don't answer questions" no matter how innocent the question appears.
For example, cops have tried to detain people saying the way they answered "how are you" was suspicious.
Suspicious behavior not meet reasonable and articulable criteria, there has to be a crime.
A cop has no jurisdiction over you unless you are involved in a crime.


disclaimer:this is not legal advice, it is for entertainment purposes only (cover my ...)

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skmo
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by skmo »

Elizabeth wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:23 pm How is that to be determined at the time?
By knowledge of our rights and the law. Law enforcement officials have the responsibility to uphold the law, but they cannot break the law. Some laws have provisions: A police officer in pursuit of a fleeing felon doesn't have to follow speed limits within reason, for example. However, they may NOT do something in direct violation of the law.

I have to obey lawful commands given to me by law enforcement officers, and I do and will continue. However, if anyone, LEO or not, does something to wrongly threaten or intimidate me, I have the right to resist. I will always do so. If a LEO is unlawfully bullying me, all they have then is tyranny.

Our Founding Fathers decided fighting tyranny was not only their right, but their responsibility as well. I see no reason to believe I should feel differently.

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Elizabeth
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Location: East Coast Australia

Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by Elizabeth »

I am sorry for law enforcement officers in the United States. How anyone there would want the job is a mystery.

In Australia our Police Force is generally respected.
Hopefully immigrants and refugees coming to our Country will not change that.

buffalo_girl
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Posts: 7017

Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by buffalo_girl »

Maybe police in Australia don't behave like Storm Troopers.

Or...Australians feel safer behind razor wire with LRADs deployed often enough to keep everyone docile.

Hopefully immigrants and refugees coming to our Country will not change that.

I should point out that the photographs below were recorded last fall on a public highway running through Native American Treaty Land. When my husband and I spoke at the LDS Branch on the Standing Rock Reservation last August we were required to go through a military roadblock - LEAVING the Reservation - on an Interstate public highway. In October that same highway was closed and razor wire strung for miles on both sides of the Missouri River in order to prevent any travel that might interrupt a PRIVATE company from constructing a pipeline under the River. This 'police action' was overseen by 100's of municipal police officers from several US States and by ND State Military Reserve soldiers. ALL at taxpayer's expense.

Image

Image
Last edited by buffalo_girl on September 6th, 2017, 6:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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David13
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Location: Utah

Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by David13 »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 5th, 2017, 8:02 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:35 pm
Elizabeth wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:23 pm How is that to be determined at the time? Meanwhile, the chance has passed to determine whether the patient was driving under the influence or not.
By being informed.
Know the law. Know your rights. Insist that cops don't violate your rights and stay within the law.
Nurse Wubbel knew the law and insisted that the cop stayed within it. When being assaulted,
she knew her rights were being violated insisted he stop and pleaded that the other cops protect her rights.
That part didn't work so she has the right to seek redress for herself and prosecution for ALL the cops.

Here is an example, do you know if the state you live in is a stop and identify state or not?
do you even know what your legal obligations are to identify in a stop and identify state?
do you even know what your legal obligations are to identify in a non stop and identify state?
do you know what questions from a cop you have a legal obligation to answer and which ones you don't.
do you know under what conditions a cop can detain or arrest you?
do you know the difference between detainment and arrest?
I decided I should inform you.
In a stop and identify state, you have to give you name and some other qualifying data depending on your state
when the cop has reasonable and articulable suspicion that you have committed, are committing or will soon commit a crime.

In a non stop and identify state you are obliged to give your information only after being arrested for a crime,
which requires probable cause. a higher standard than reasonable and articulable suspicion.

Other that that every other question they ask should be answered with "I don't answer questions" no matter how innocent the question appears.
For example, cops have tried to detain people saying the way they answered "how are you" was suspicious.
Suspicious behavior not meet reasonable and articulable criteria, there has to be a crime.
A cop has no jurisdiction over you unless you are involved in a crime.


disclaimer:this is not legal advice, it is for entertainment purposes only (cover my ...)
Speaking of entertainment value, let me understand this.
If any cop decides to take you in, and you decide he doesn't have the right, you are going to get into a physical fight with a man with mace, a taser, a nightstick, handcuffs, and a gun? A man who also has a radio connected to about 100 of his good buddies who all have fast cars and are possibly quite close by?
I'll be watching for the video on that one, and it probably will be amusing.

And that goes for skmo also.
dc

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David13
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Posts: 7072
Location: Utah

Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by David13 »

skmo wrote: September 5th, 2017, 8:36 pm

,,,

I have to obey lawful commands given to me by law enforcement officers, and I do and will continue. However, if anyone, LEO or not, does something to wrongly threaten or intimidate me, I have the right to resist. I will always do so.

,,,
Here is another one who "wasn't going to be taken in". Is this how you are going to do it?

It's a little blurry. Full screen viewing cures that. Oh, viewer discretion advised.


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Rose Garden
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by Rose Garden »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 5th, 2017, 8:02 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:35 pm
Elizabeth wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:23 pm How is that to be determined at the time? Meanwhile, the chance has passed to determine whether the patient was driving under the influence or not.
By being informed.
Know the law. Know your rights. Insist that cops don't violate your rights and stay within the law.
Nurse Wubbel knew the law and insisted that the cop stayed within it. When being assaulted,
she knew her rights were being violated insisted he stop and pleaded that the other cops protect her rights.
That part didn't work so she has the right to seek redress for herself and prosecution for ALL the cops.

Here is an example, do you know if the state you live in is a stop and identify state or not?
do you even know what your legal obligations are to identify in a stop and identify state?
do you even know what your legal obligations are to identify in a non stop and identify state?
do you know what questions from a cop you have a legal obligation to answer and which ones you don't.
do you know under what conditions a cop can detain or arrest you?
do you know the difference between detainment and arrest?
I decided I should inform you.
In a stop and identify state, you have to give you name and some other qualifying data depending on your state
when the cop has reasonable and articulable suspicion that you have committed, are committing or will soon commit a crime.

In a non stop and identify state you are obliged to give your information only after being arrested for a crime,
which requires probable cause. a higher standard than reasonable and articulable suspicion.

Other that that every other question they ask should be answered with "I don't answer questions" no matter how innocent the question appears.
For example, cops have tried to detain people saying the way they answered "how are you" was suspicious.
Suspicious behavior not meet reasonable and articulable criteria, there has to be a crime.
A cop has no jurisdiction over you unless you are involved in a crime.


disclaimer:this is not legal advice, it is for entertainment purposes only (cover my ...)
I ask, what will the consequences be if I do/don't do ______? If I'm asked to sign something, I'll ask what the consequences will be if I don't sign. If I'm asked questions I ask what the consequences will be if I don't answer. Then I based my decisions on the answer I get. If they tell me I'll be under arrest, I go ahead and do what they want. It can be an amusing exercise to see how people react to that. Most have never had anyone do that and they'll do all sorts of interesting things trying to convince you to do what they think you should. However, they can't get around the fact that if the consequences aren't intimidating enough to make you want to do it, then they have no leverage to get you to do it.

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skmo
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by skmo »

David13 wrote: September 5th, 2017, 9:25 pm
If any cop decides to take you in, and you decide he doesn't have the right, you are going to get into a physical fight with a man with mace, a taser, a nightstick, handcuffs, and a gun? A man who also has a radio connected to about 100 of his good buddies who all have fast cars and are possibly quite close by?
I'll be watching for the video on that one, and it probably will be amusing.

And that goes for skmo also.
dc
In the part of the world where you live, are police the only ones who carry defensive aids? I know they're certainly not in my part of the world. I repeat, our Founding Fathers decided fighting tyranny was not only their right, but their responsibility as well. I see no reason to believe I should feel differently. I have nothing more to gain nor anything less to lose than did John Paul Jones, Francis Marion, or Nathan Hale.

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shadow
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Location: St. George

Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by shadow »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:39 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:33 pm
Elizabeth wrote: September 5th, 2017, 7:23 pm How is that to be determined at the time? Meanwhile, the chance has passed to determine whether the patient was driving under the influence or not.
The patient was just a random person hit by the driver who had been speeding, and when police tried to pull him over, he crossed into oncoming traffic and hit the truck driver, who never had a chance to avoid the accident. It was not necessary to get a blood sample, as the police already knew he didn't cause the accident.

A few years ago I was T-boned by a person charging off a side street. She had a stop sign, and I had right-of-way. There were several witnesses, and when I talked with the police officer while the tow truck was scooping up my car, I asked him if the report was clear that I didn't have any causation in the accident. He said, ma'am, you could have been texting, speeding, and sitting on the roof of your car, and you wouldn't have any responsibility for this accident. He never suggested taking a blood sample. At least some officers have some common sense.
And from what I have read, treatment at the scene would have made the blood test mote.
It has been suggested that this particular pursuit was against department policy so they were
looking for something to cover up with, to try to shift at least some of the blame on the patient.
No, the pursuit wasn't against department policy.

As far as the drug test, it's required simply because the driver of the dump truck was involved in an accident where a fatality was involved, no matter who is at fault.
From the DOT website-

Type of Accident Involved
Citation Issued to the CMV Driver----- Test Must Be Performed
Human Fatality Yes Yes
*Human Fatality No Yes
Bodily Injury With Immediate Medical Treatment Away From the Scene Yes Yes
Bodily Injury With Immediate Medical Treatment Away From the Scene No No
Disabling Damage to Any Motor Vehicle Requiring Tow Away Yes Yes
Disabling Damage to Any Motor Vehicle Requiring Tow Away No No


The copy and paste isn't working well but notice that where a human fatality is involved it doesn't matter if the CDL driver is issued the citation or not, the test MUST be performed.

This doesn't excuse the out of line cop. He still needs to get an order for the blood draw. The nurse was 100% correct and the cop was 100% wrong. He should be fired and the UofU officer that sat around while the UofU nurse was being abused should also be fired.

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captainfearnot
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Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by captainfearnot »

Elizabeth wrote: September 5th, 2017, 6:35 pm She did not have to fight, scream and yell nor resist arrest, which is a serious matter in itself, whether you think you are in the right or not.
Right? Who does she think she is, LaVoy Finicum?

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captainfearnot
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Posts: 1966

Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by captainfearnot »

shadow wrote: September 6th, 2017, 11:18 amThe copy and paste isn't working well

In which case you could post a link like this: Utah MC Trucking Guide

shadow wrote: September 6th, 2017, 11:18 ambut notice that where a human fatality is involved it doesn't matter if the CDL driver is issued the citation or not, the test MUST be performed.

By the employer.

The site you cited is just the motor carrier regs for drug and alcohol testing. The chart outlines the post-accident drug testing that truck drivers must undergo before their company can put them back behind the wheel. Of all the reasons the cop could have wanted the driver's blood, I seriously doubt he was trying to assist the driver's employer with clearing him to drive again.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Posts: 636

Re: Cop Attacks, Kidnaps Nurse for Refusing to Break the Law for Him & Warrantlessly Draw Blood

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Elizabeth wrote: September 5th, 2017, 6:35 pm She did not have to fight, scream and yell nor resist arrest, which is a serious matter in itself, whether you think you are in the right or not.
Actually, legally, she did. She even had the right to go so far as to kill him.
The Officer was acting under the color of law (illegally claiming authority)
He was threatening her physical safety, he is much larger and more powerful. legally her life was being threatened.

The SCOTUS has ruled that you do indeed have the RIGHT to resist unlawful arrest, even the use of deadly force.

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