LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

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Serragon
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by Serragon »

EmmaLee wrote: August 18th, 2017, 5:03 pm
On another note - here's someone who actually 'gets it' and points out just how vile that LDS Church-produced video you link to really is - worth a read, IMO - http://standardoflibertyblog.blogspot.c ... ilies.html
Thank you for sharing that link. I had not read that before. Excellent analysis.

Matchmaker
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by Matchmaker »

Serragon wrote: August 18th, 2017, 11:39 am I find the direction the church has taken on this issue over the last 2 years very troubling.

The current stance of the church is to normalize homosexuality while requiring that the homosexuals do not engage in sex. The brethren have bought into the idea that people are born homosexual and that it is not simply a sexual fetish. This has been a massive mistake and will change the entire church culture. I believe this stance to be morally wrong and the solution to be untenable.

The idea that if you simply do not act on your homosexual feelings you are not sinning is incorrect. If you are nurturing those thoughts then it is indeed sinful. By nurturing your fetishes, you focus on them and eventually will most likely act out that fetish. This is why we are constantly taught to keep our thoughts pure. A man who nurtures his thoughts about adultery has already committed that sin in his mind, and most likely will be an adulterer in deed.

It is untenable because more and more pressure will be put on the church to allow homosexual unions. After all, if it is normal and can't be helped, how can it be wrong? Eventually the church will have to abandon its position of homosexual marriage being wrong.

This is fundamentally different than the position change on polygamy and blacks/priesthood. First, race and sexual fetishes are not comparable. Second, there is scriptural precedent for each practice. You can actually identify cases where the Lord has allowed polygamy and has restricted His priesthood because of race.

There is NO scriptural precedent for the idea that homosexuality is not a sin. From the beginning of Judeo Christian history homosexuality has been a sin. It has never been otherwise. Now we are asked to believe that homosexuality is in fact normal, that you are born that way, and that you have no burden to try and overcome this weakness but glory in it as the single most important factor in your identity (but don't have sex).

Every prophet from Moses to apostles in general conference a few short years ago have said that homosexuality is a sin. Our modern prophets have repeatedly said that the idea that you are born homosexual is a lie. This now has changed completely. There has been no new revelation, no scriptural refutation of previous prophets. Just a subtle shift in the language and in marketing which will cause people to accept homosexuality gradually.

If you want to say that every prophet in judeo christian history has been incorrect on this issue then come out and say it and validate your position. Show us the revelation where God has revealed this. Show us the research from the scriptures where you have identified how this was incorrect. Even show us the modern research where it has been proven that people are born homosexual. But to simply change positions as the world changes positions with no explanation is rather frustrating.
I agree with you that this change is disconcerting. And there is nothing we as LDS can do about it except accept the Church's new stance and trust the Lord. We have no vote. The Church is not a Democracy. This whole "gay relationship is OK, as long as you never have sex with each other" thing, is a time bomb waiting to happen. Almost none of these healthy young men and women in the Church are going to live celibate lives for long, and sooner or later they are going to get x'd, and when they do they are going to think the Church has been leading them along to convince the world of its tolerance while ultimately betraying them. It's a slippery slope.

Seek the Truth
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by Seek the Truth »

Col. Flagg wrote: August 18th, 2017, 10:55 am
Seek the Truth wrote: August 17th, 2017, 10:22 pm The truth is you avoid a truckload of scriptures.
:)) They are my best defense.
Except the boatload you ignore.

Seek the Truth
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by Seek the Truth »

bbsion wrote: August 18th, 2017, 2:15 pm I think in high school the girls tend to make the mistake of thinking arrogance and confidence is the same thing.
Lol that continues till the retirement home.

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h_p
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by h_p »

EmmaLee wrote: August 18th, 2017, 5:03 pm On another note - here's someone who actually 'gets it' and points out just how vile that LDS Church-produced video you link to really is - worth a read, IMO - http://standardoflibertyblog.blogspot.c ... ilies.html
Thanks for linking this, EmmaLee. This is something I'm seriously trying to understand, and I know the author's opinion is really not allowed in civil public discourse, unfortunately, so there's not many opportunities to talk about it. I've been predicting since the 90's that homosexuality would be the dividing line in the church that rips it in half--maybe that already happened.

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brlenox
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by brlenox »

Serragon wrote: August 18th, 2017, 4:16 pm
brlenox wrote: August 18th, 2017, 1:20 pm
You are conflating heavily here. The churches stance of "don't act on your homosexual desires" is not the projection of the popularized societal direction of "born this way." The church does not claim such. Neither can the brethren change positions on the acceptability of SSM advocating the church stance that it is acceptable. I can certainly see rhetoric to the effect of that it may be approved by the world as it does not govern itself by the laws of God, but the Church will not itself embrace such a stance.
I am not conflating. The following video was produced and published by the church and unequivocally teaches that you are born that way.

There is also much circumstantial evidence over the last few years, most of which has been documented on this site.

If you choose not to believe that the church's changing position has been informed by the changes in society, that is up to you. But I would suggest that you are in fact choosing to be ignorant on the subject.

It appears you are attempting to say that the church position has changed due to the wickedness of the members in desiring it. I beleive this to be false. There has not been wholesale demand for the church to change positions by its members. The church is changing despite the members. They are changing and pulling the members along with them.

I have read through your post twice and feel that you are really stretching to try and fit the current situation into your paradigm. You are intelligent and I generally enjoy reading your posts as I feel they are well reasoned and rational. But here I believe you are trying to find evidence to fit your conclusion instead of a conclusion based on evidence.

Well, it is obvious we are going to have some difference in thought here. However that is to be expected. Yet, and I hope you are willing, I would like to discuss various nuances of our perspectives to shine a bit more light or both of our stances on the subject.

A couple of things. First, it is apparent that you passed right over the scriptural example that you requested and I provided for your consideration. It is first very important to understand the reasoning of God as best as man is able. I do not think it even possible to grasp the current state of things if you do not grasp the nature of this New Testament situation concerning marriage. One of the most challenging things about scripture is it is very difficult to take circumstances shrouded in the conditions, circumstance and language of the current day and recognize that practically all experience is somewhere addressed in scriptures in the language of scripture speak for our understanding. We have to diligently search it out to even hope for such. Failing to do so, we do just exactly what you and several others I have observed of late have done. You claim no scriptural precedent exists and then begin to condemn based on a selective view of personal preference. However, the Moses situation should be compelling to you as it embraces too many of the same elements to be so handily ignored. Your thoughts?

Second, I made this statement in my post "To what ever degree the leaders are required, they will nudge the process to the furthest extremes of acceptable boundaries to salvage as many as may someday return through the gates of repentance in hopes of avoiding the immediate rejection of the gospel as a whole and total loss of many who may someday see more clearly and return."

Your video selection was not the church stance on anything. When does the church claim to base any doctrine on your life story or theirs. It was the story of a family. It was their view. It was the manner in which they addressed an exceptionally difficult and ongoing circumstance in their family. You have your stories of circumstance for things in your family and I have my stories for circumstances within my family. They are our personal journey's but not the churches stance on anything. Just mine and your stance on our lives. The church invited their participation but did not script their response - that would be disingenuous on so many levels.

Some want to cry guilty by association. That sharing stories such as these puts the church in a supportive role. There was a time when I held that general perspective but the Book of Mormon has another scriptural story that eliminates that perspective. Consider upon the words recorded in Alma concerning the covenant the Ammonites had made to never kill any of their brethren:

Alma 53:14-15

14 But behold, as they were about to take their weapons of war, they were overpowered by the persuasions of Helaman and his brethren, for they were about to break the oath which they had made.

15 And Helaman feared lest by so doing they should lose their souls; therefore all those who had entered into this covenant were compelled to behold their brethren wade through their afflictions, in their dangerous circumstances at this time.
So concerned for the Children of Ammon was Helaman that he worried for their very salvation if they broke their covenant and supported the Nephites by going to battle against their brethren. However, Consider upon this:
Alma 56:27

27 And now it came to pass in the second month of this year, there was brought unto us many provisions from the fathers of those my two thousand sons.
That the same Children of Ammon who had covenanted to not kill their brethren supported their children in killing their brethren, or simply supported their children that they might survive was not deemed a breech of their covenant. And so it is with the church we do not take on the burdens of others simply by the association of their message with the LDS church's website.

However, scriptures and prophetic utterance can generally be determined to be a better representation of the Churches stance on anything. You have stepped over both and chosen a families story as superior source of information for you to learn. That is not sensible. Again the church is trying to provide a safe environment where sinners like you and me and gay boys and girls can come and not be ostracized for the fact they are sinners. The gay scenario is most likely going to play out in the end with somehow being a great burden to the church. It is not an unwise thing to try to mitigate that eventuality for as long as possible.

It is not my nature to preconceive my ideas and then build narratives to support my opinion. I study, I research, I pray and I seek the Lords guidance and insight. In this instance, I have done an excellent job of gathering the sources that inform my belief and they are the scriptures and the words of the prophet. I assure you that without the guidance of the spirit, practically no one is going to see the value of Christ's response to the Moses situation and how it applies to this situation. They are going to do as you have done and miss the point entirely. The quote I used for what Joseph Smith said I have been searching for for weeks until this morning as I was composing my response to your post an exact phrase entered my head and I found it searching on that. That was not coincidence in the least.

I hope that as you respond you will consider upon the things I have written. If you take a moment and simply compare your response to the church with Joseph Smiths statement you will find that your attitude is completely the one he describes and lacking in an understanding of the principles of godliness. There is no charity in your tone and you completely discount this perspective from Joseph's brilliant insight: "The way to keep all the Saints together, and keep the work rolling, is to wait with all long-suffering, till God shall bring such characters to justice." There is a time and a place for reaping the harvest and burning the dross but it will be on the Lords time when none else can be saved. What you are failing to understand is that not an ounce of Christ's precious blood will be wasted by the Father. He did not give his Son lightly and He will reap every single soul that can be saved. To do other wise would be to insult the Savior and undermine the value of his sacrifice.

One more point, as I am sure you can observe there has been a increasing change in the common voice of the younger generations of members in the church. I don't read it as intentional as much as they are growing up in a society that is characterized by a conditioned acceptance of tolerance of gays and other such classes. So profound is this indoctrination of a generation that like all generations they have instantaneous response to certain things that shut the mind down and they will not listen to a more truthful perspective. Go around condemning LGBTW voices and they simply reject the messenger and the message. Why do you vote to lose them on a point of indoctrination when if you can let them have their social engenderment, then you have a chance to teach them the other aspects of the Gospel in the hope that they will overcome the baggage of a generation. God is charitable in this fashion - should not we be the same? Again D & C 19 speaks to this principle but I'll not elaborate tonight.

If you can provide anything other than personal opinion, yours or family's in video's, if you can justify your stance by any prophetic source, that will add much credibility to your perspective that I am unable to extend at this time.

I'll be interested in your response.

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brlenox
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by brlenox »

EmmaLee wrote: August 18th, 2017, 5:03 pm
You are correct, Serragon. In addition to the video you shared above, the Church's own website "Mormonsandgays.org" states - "individuals do not choose to have such attractions" - which most people, Mormons and non (according to reams of commentary I've read on the subject), interpret to mean "they are born that way." A simple reading of the Church's and Brethren's statements on this subject over the last 15 +/- years shows a definite movement toward the world's/society's position on homosexuality. It's unmistakable and truly sad.

On another note - here's someone who actually 'gets it' and points out just how vile that LDS Church-produced video you link to really is - worth a read, IMO - http://standardoflibertyblog.blogspot.c ... ilies.html
This quote alone captures the spirit of the author of the post that you find such wisdom in:
The trendy new idea of homosexuality being an identity (which has zero scientific or scriptural support) instead of what it is---an age-old sin of abominable lusts and behaviors--- has completely blind-sided just about everybody. If you believe that unlike every other sin this particular sin is who a person is and they can't help what they think, feel, and do, then of course you have to either accept the horrible behaviors along with the person, or reject the person himself. It's a no-win and a false and dangerous notion.
Rejecting sinners is the Lords business. This is not to say we should embrace their lifestyles or behaviors but you must love them as God loves you. Upon this principle hangs the law and the prophets. This statement above from your link has no sense of charity and is wrong.

Also the quote above about individuals not choosing SS attraction. Here it is in context:
Feelings of same-sex attraction are not a sin. Elder M. Russell Ballard stated:

“Let us be clear: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that ‘the experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including [those with same-sex attraction]’” (“The Lord Needs You Now!” Ensign, Sept. 2015, 29).

While same-sex attraction is not a sin, it can be a challenge. While one may not have chosen to have these feelings, he or she can commit to keep God’s commandments. The parent of a child who experiences same-sex attraction or identifies as gay should choose to love and embrace that child. As a community of Church members, we should choose to create a welcoming community.
There is no equivocation here. The attraction may simply be apart of someones existence - it simply is. However, it is a sin to develop the attraction. How many men here can honestly say they have never felt even a modicum of attraction to another women other than their wife at least once in their lifetime - most more often. We do not try these men for adultery until they commit adultery. The path to that point will pass through the warnings of the Savior most likely that they will first lust after her and commit sin in their hearts. However, for a mature righteous man he may feel the attraction and never act on it and it is not counted a sin. Neither for a woman as many women go through the same scenarios in this day and age.

Here is another quote from the very same page and which can be accepted as the churches stance on these matters:
The Church does not take a position on the cause of same-sex attraction. In 2006, Elder Dallin H. Oaks stated:

“The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction” (Interview With Elder Dallin H. Oaks and Elder Lance B. Wickman: “Same-Gender Attraction”, 2006).
I know men in the exact state that Elder Ballard speaks to, where they have not acted upon it but they have an attraction that is simply theirs. It is not unholy at this point in their lives. It is like any state of attraction when it is innocent. It does not have a lustful component as that is what is developed after people begin to act on their attractions. It is simply the same burden that a heterosexual male has only he is attracted to women. It only becomes a judge able offense upon commission of wrong.
Last edited by brlenox on August 18th, 2017, 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fiannan
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by Fiannan »

bbsion wrote: August 18th, 2017, 2:17 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: August 18th, 2017, 2:03 pm Here’s what is really perplexing – last year the church comes out with their new policy for gay couples where children residing with homosexual parents cannot be baptized and same sex couples within the church are ex’d, yet, here we are endorsing an LGBT concert???
I thought the same thing. Perplexing is the right word for sure though. That's kind of why this endorsement feels like cheap politics.
That is what I meant by "contradictory policies."

Sunain
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by Sunain »

h_p wrote: August 18th, 2017, 6:15 pm
EmmaLee wrote: August 18th, 2017, 5:03 pm On another note - here's someone who actually 'gets it' and points out just how vile that LDS Church-produced video you link to really is - worth a read, IMO - http://standardoflibertyblog.blogspot.c ... ilies.html
Thanks for linking this, EmmaLee. This is something I'm seriously trying to understand, and I know the author's opinion is really not allowed in civil public discourse, unfortunately, so there's not many opportunities to talk about it. I've been predicting since the 90's that homosexuality would be the dividing line in the church that rips it in half--maybe that already happened.
I agree that it's become the dividing line in the church currently but only because of the worlds acceptance of homosexuality. The gospel and the teachings of the church haven't changed during these years. The church's media promotion, press releases and stance doubled down on the November 2015 policy but were starting to get a lot of uncertainty from the church since then almost to the point that they regret that policy. There shouldn't be a single baptized member of the church today that thinks homosexuality is not a sin. If 50% of the church members think it's fine, then I think the church needs to get these people going on the repentance train ASAP. I believe its even worse for temple recommend holders because we aren't supposed to associate with or accept things that are against church doctrine, which homosexuality is. I'm extremely disappointed with the enforcement of that issue for temple recommends. That means a lot of members are putting on another face when they go to the temple. That doesn't bring the spirit there.

It's really disappointing to me that the church isn't putting their foot down on this homosexuality issue. I don't see any other major moral issue that might come up for the church in the future that is like this homosexuality issue. This is the last days final moral challenge I believe. If they don't put their foot down now, in a year or 2, there is no turning back because people will say the church is lying and conflicted on the homosexuality issue when we get press releases like this concert event.

I feel though if I were to write my displeasure to my Stake President, area 70 and cc the quorum of the 12, I think I'd get a disciplinary action taken against me for voicing this to them. That's how I feel the church is right now. Just my 2 cents. #:-s
Last edited by Sunain on August 18th, 2017, 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Seek the Truth
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by Seek the Truth »

So what are we supposed to do with people that are gay? My understanding of Christianity is you would offer a hand of fellowship and help with dealing with their situation.

Sunain
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by Sunain »

Seek the Truth wrote: August 18th, 2017, 10:27 pm So what are we supposed to do with people that are gay? My understanding of Christianity is you would offer a hand of fellowship and help with dealing with their situation.
Help them, be friends with them, definitely. Just don't promote their lifestyle. Explain despite their decision, we believe that it's a moral sin that is offensive to God and to their own spirit.

Seek the Truth
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by Seek the Truth »

Seems like that's what everyone is doing but nobody is happy about it.

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Yahtzee
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by Yahtzee »

I wrestled in prayer with this last night. It really is bothering me. And I wanted to share what I felt three spirit teach me. I told the Lord I was confused and upset and asked, "is homosexuality even a sin any more???" And the Spirit ever so gently said, "yes. But not as great a sin as contention."
Well that hurt. Guess which one I'm more guilty of? I'm not calling anyone out. I just wanted to share that in case it helps anyone else. I think (going back earlier in the thread about the manifesto) this is what the early saints had to do. Pray and try to understand.
I do actually feel a change of heart now. I'm not sure yet what that means with my lgbtw (i like the w) friends and family. But I feel more calm and loving thinking of them, which is a nice change.

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gkearney
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by gkearney »

Seek the Truth wrote: August 18th, 2017, 3:42 pm I am going to say no. Marriage is not the purview of the Federal Government or courts, there is no mention of sex, gender or marriage in the US Constitution. They should have turned it back to the states where it belonged. When the court steps in where it shouldn't they indeed are usurpers.

Politics ALWAYS plays a role in court decisions. This was always a political match, not a legal one.

I guess I can't understand a word you are saying, it would have been better for the Church to stay out of California? How so.
I would go one step beyond that even and argue that marriage is not even the purview of the states. Marriage is a sacrament of faith and I think that is the point the church and other churches should have been making all along. While the government has an interest in contracts between parties, hence the full faith and credit clause, government should not have a role in the practice of religion which should be left to the church, mosque or temple. This is, in my opinion where the stand should have been made.

The Latter-day Saint are in a somewhat unique position to be able to approach this issues in this way as we can simply stop performing the civil part of marriage and choose to perform only the religious rite of sealings. This is what is done in the United Kingdom for example. Also the church, due to its history, was not really in a good place to suddenly be leading the charge on a state proposition which had the following "Sec. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." (Note the singular.)

We could have made the case that marriage being a religious rite should left in the hands of the church and not the state. This would have been a far easier legal case to make than trying to appeal to the Bible, historical practice, or defence of the language which was done and which failed.

In any event I think it is instructive for the next time to understand both the legal arguments that carried the day as well as the ultimately more important fact that those urging same sex marriage were able to humanize the issue in ways I do not think the opponents ever expected. Finally we would do well to remember that sometimes it is better not to act at all than to be lead down the garden path to act in the way that the other side of an issue wants you to, which is what I think happened with prop 8.
Last edited by gkearney on August 19th, 2017, 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bbsion
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by bbsion »

EmmaLee wrote: August 18th, 2017, 5:03 pm
Serragon wrote: August 18th, 2017, 4:16 pm
brlenox wrote: August 18th, 2017, 1:20 pm
You are conflating heavily here. The churches stance of "don't act on your homosexual desires" is not the projection of the popularized societal direction of "born this way." The church does not claim such. Neither can the brethren change positions on the acceptability of SSM advocating the church stance that it is acceptable. I can certainly see rhetoric to the effect of that it may be approved by the world as it does not govern itself by the laws of God, but the Church will not itself embrace such a stance.
I am not conflating. The following video was produced and published by the church and unequivocally teaches that you are born that way.
There is also much circumstantial evidence over the last few years, most of which has been documented on this site.

If you choose not to believe that the church's changing position has been informed by the changes in society, that is up to you. But I would suggest that you are in fact choosing to be ignorant on the subject.

It appears you are attempting to say that the church position has changed due to the wickedness of the members in desiring it. I beleive this to be false. There has not been wholesale demand for the church to change positions by its members. The church is changing despite the members. They are changing and pulling the members along with them.

I have read through your post twice and feel that you are really stretching to try and fit the current situation into your paradigm. You are intelligent and I generally enjoy reading your posts as I feel they are well reasoned and rational. But here I believe you are trying to find evidence to fit your conclusion instead of a conclusion based on evidence.
You are correct, Serragon. In addition to the video you shared above, the Church's own website "Mormonsandgays.org" states - "individuals do not choose to have such attractions" - which most people, Mormons and non (according to reams of commentary I've read on the subject), interpret to mean "they are born that way." A simple reading of the Church's and Brethren's statements on this subject over the last 15 +/- years shows a definite movement toward the world's/society's position on homosexuality. It's unmistakable and truly sad.

On another note - here's someone who actually 'gets it' and points out just how vile that LDS Church-produced video you link to really is - worth a read, IMO - http://standardoflibertyblog.blogspot.c ... ilies.html
That blog post was a good read.

I feel like the bottom line for me is the vision of the Tree of Life. You cannot hold to the rod and partake of the fruit while living a homosexual life. If you accept the sin because they were "born that way" and cease to explain the importance of this vision to your homosexual child... perhaps you've let go of the rod? Not all of Lehi''s family made it to the Tree. As much as I love my kids... I don't want my whole family to let go of the rod so we can make one sinful child feel accepted. This doesn't mean you don't love them, but never encourage them to stay in the great and spacious building.

Seek the Truth
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by Seek the Truth »

gkearney wrote: August 19th, 2017, 7:40 am
Seek the Truth wrote: August 18th, 2017, 3:42 pm I am going to say no. Marriage is not the purview of the Federal Government or courts, there is no mention of sex, gender or marriage in the US Constitution. They should have turned it back to the states where it belonged. When the court steps in where it shouldn't they indeed are usurpers.

Politics ALWAYS plays a role in court decisions. This was always a political match, not a legal one.

I guess I can't understand a word you are saying, it would have been better for the Church to stay out of California? How so.
I would go one step beyond that even and argue that marriage is not even the purview of the states. Marriage is a sacrament of faith and I think that is the point the church and other churches should have been making all along. While the government has an interest in contracts between parties, hence the full faith and credit clause, government should not have a role in the practice of religion which should be left to the church, mosque or temple. This is, in my opinion where the stand should have been made.

The Latter-day Saint are in a somewhat unique position to be able to approach this issues in this way as we can simply stop performing the civil part of marriage and choose to perform only the religious rite of sealings. This is what is done in the United Kingdom for example. Also the church, due to its history, was not really in a good place to suddenly be leading the charge on a state proposition which had the following "Sec. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." (Note the singular.)

We could have made the case that marriage being a religious rite should left in the hands of the church and not the state. This would have been a far easier legal case to make than trying to appeal to the Bible, historical practice, or defence of the language which was done and which failed.

In any event I think it is instructive for the next time to understand both the legal arguments that carried the day as well as the ultimately more important fact that those urging same sex marriage were able to humanize the issue in ways I do not think the opponents ever expected. Finally we would do well to remember that sometimes it is better not to act at all than to be lead down the garden path to act in the way that the other side of an issue wants you to, which is what I think happened with prop 8.
Politics carried the day, not legal systems. Still waiting for someone to tell me what the Church should have done in California.

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gkearney
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by gkearney »

Seek the Truth wrote: August 19th, 2017, 11:49 pm


In any event I think it is instructive for the next time to understand both the legal arguments that carried the day as well
Politics carried the day, not legal systems. Still waiting for someone to tell me what the Church should have done in California.

I don’t want to presume to say what the Church leadership should do in any situation. If left to me I would have used what little political pull I might have had to advance the idea that government should not be engaged in the religious rite of marriage.

At a minimum now we need to Recognize what was done to us and how we ended up being used to advance the very thing we opposed. Otherwise we are doomed to repeate the same mistake again.

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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

Supporting sin is sin. Christ came to free people from their sin, not tell them that it is okay to be defined by it eternally so long as you don't currently practice. Perhaps the church is testing us to see how much we will take? Does anybody remember Joseph lecturing the brethren about shedding blood needlessly and then shooting a squirrel and walking off without himself picking it up? Perhaps this is a test. I don't really care because I am not paternalistic on this Earth but principled. You can not take sin as an identity and be free from it, it never was nor will be possible. Looking around I can only wonder what Sodom and Gomorrah could possibly have done more than we to deserve destruction? My fidelity is to God and Christ. If the church asks me to choose between them there is no question whom I will choose. God has often chastised the church but the church can never rightly condemn God. The audacity to condemn the promotion of "white culture" (ever been to Swiss Days or the Highland Games etc...?) whilst promoting the perversion of youth is not lost on me! I could not hold my head up before God without condemning it openly!

I get how intersex fish happen and that society is facing an onslaught of hormone mimicking chemicals etc.. as well as social conditioning that encourages gay behavior from infancy. What I do not get is how anybody could preach that we should surrender to our circumstances or be defined by them. The spirit is to subjugate the flesh not the other way around.

Perhaps this is one of the tests we must overcome before being fit for Zion? When you think of it those called would not be fit if they put men and society above God and principle.
Last edited by SwissMrs&Pitchfire on August 20th, 2017, 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Robin Hood
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by Robin Hood »

Seek the Truth wrote: August 18th, 2017, 10:27 pm So what are we supposed to do with people that are gay? My understanding of Christianity is you would offer a hand of fellowship and help with dealing with their situation.
I think we have to be clear that they need to choose. They either choose to identify as a homosexual, or as a Latter-day Saint.

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brlenox
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by brlenox »

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote: August 20th, 2017, 3:48 pm Supporting sin is sin. Christ came to free people from their sin, not tell them that it is okay to be defined by it eternally so long as you don't currently practice. Perhaps the church is testing us to see how much we will take? Does anybody remember Joseph lecturing the brethren about shedding blood needlessly and then shooting a squirrel and walking off without himself picking it up? Perhaps this is a test. I don't really care because I am not paternalistic on this Earth but principled. You can not take sin as an identity and be free from it, it never was nor will be possible. Looking around I can only wonder what Sodom and Gomorrah could possibly have done more than we to deserve destruction? My fidelity is to God and Christ. If the church asks me to choose between them there is no question whom I will choose. God has often chastised the church but the church can never rightly condemn God. The audacity to condemn the promotion of "white culture" (ever been to Swiss Days or the Highland Games etc...?) whilst promoting the perversion of youth is not lost on me! I could not hold my head up before God without condemning it openly!

I get how intersex fish happen and that society is facing an onslaught of hormone mimicking chemicals etc.. as well as social conditioning that encourages gay behavior from infancy. What I do not get is how anybody could preach that we should surrender to our circumstances or be defined by them. The spirit is to subjugate the flesh not the other way around.

Perhaps this is one of the tests we must overcome before being fit for Zion? When you think of it those called would not be fit if they put men and society above God and principle.
You gravely misunderstand how Joseph would respond in this situation in my opinion. This quote fits to a T and should inform our own responses:
It is one evidence that men are unacquainted with the principles of godliness to behold the contraction of affectionate feelings and lack of charity in the world. The power and glory of godliness is spread out on a broad principle to throw out the mantle of charity. God does not look on sin with allowance, but when men have sinned, there must be allowance made for them.The nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs. …

All the religious world is boasting of righteousness: it is the doctrine of the devil to retard the human mind, and hinder our progress, by filling us with self-righteousness.

...We must walk uprightly all the daylong. How glorious are the principles of righteousness! We are full of selfishness; the devil flatters us that we are very righteous, when we are feeding on the faults of others. We can only live by worshiping our God; all must do it for themselves; none can do it for another.

“… How oft have wise men and women sought to dictate Brother Joseph by saying, ‘Oh, if I were Brother Joseph, I would do this and that;’ but if they were in Brother Joseph’s shoes they would find that men or women could not be compelled into the kingdom of God, but must be dealt with in long-suffering, and at last we shall save them. The way to keep all the Saints together, and keep the work rolling, is to wait with all long-suffering, till God shall bring such characters to justice. There should be no license for sin, but mercy should go hand in hand with reproof.”(History of the Church, 5:24; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on June 9, 1842, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Eliza R. Snow.)

gardener4life
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by gardener4life »

Gage wrote: August 18th, 2017, 10:51 am
Sirocco wrote: August 18th, 2017, 10:35 am Well age does humble people, some people, indeed some become more picky (it's a psychological thing people do to make themselves feel better, it's so they don't have e to face any of their own problems and instead can pass blame onto others, if no men measure up it's their fault, why should you change?)
And our culture encourages that sort of thinking, most people wise up to it, though sometimes it's way too late, I understand my flaws and feel I'd be an alright husband and father, but I do feel the deck stacked against me, Mormon or not.


Sadly in today's world with today's women the one that gets to be the husband/father is not always the one that will make the best husband/father. They want the rich, good looking guy that they cant trust.
Over and over and over I have seen this example. Actually, I don't think I've seen any examples lately that didn't follow this and it's pretty sad.

gardener4life
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by gardener4life »

Fiannan wrote: August 18th, 2017, 11:47 am
The current stance of the church is to normalize homosexuality while requiring that the homosexuals do not engage in sex. The brethren have bought into the idea that people are born homosexual and that it is not simply a sexual fetish. This has been a massive mistake and will change the entire church culture. I believe this stance to be morally wrong and the solution to be untenable.
I do not mind teaching that we should respect people's right to live their lives and that God will eventually judge. However, I wonder how impressionable children could be harmed by Church statements in recent years. Children need absolutes and I am seeing some really contradictory actions lately.
Well if you go this way with absolutes and intolerance you would end up with punitive religions like Islam.

Lizzy60
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by Lizzy60 »

Concerning homosexuality, we should be going with absolutes. Telling young people that God made them gay, and that it's a beautiful part of who they are, is beyond evil, as well as totally incorrect. If they are "born that way" it's NOT God's doing.

I am devastated that my church seems to be wavering on this issue. I understand that the "Church" does not want to be blamed for teen suicides, but to give any hint that it's okay to have same-sex-attraction will only bring spiritual death. It is a matter of life and death -- absolutely.

simpleton
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by simpleton »

brlenox wrote: August 20th, 2017, 4:22 pm
SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote: August 20th, 2017, 3:48 pm Supporting sin is sin. Christ came to free people from their sin, not tell them that it is okay to be defined by it eternally so long as you don't currently practice. Perhaps the church is testing us to see how much we will take? Does anybody remember Joseph lecturing the brethren about shedding blood needlessly and then shooting a squirrel and walking off without himself picking it up? Perhaps this is a test. I don't really care because I am not paternalistic on this Earth but principled. You can not take sin as an identity and be free from it, it never was nor will be possible. Looking around I can only wonder what Sodom and Gomorrah could possibly have done more than we to deserve destruction? My fidelity is to God and Christ. If the church asks me to choose between them there is no question whom I will choose. God has often chastised the church but the church can never rightly condemn God. The audacity to condemn the promotion of "white culture" (ever been to Swiss Days or the Highland Games etc...?) whilst promoting the perversion of youth is not lost on me! I could not hold my head up before God without condemning it openly!

I get how intersex fish happen and that society is facing an onslaught of hormone mimicking chemicals etc.. as well as social conditioning that encourages gay behavior from infancy. What I do not get is how anybody could preach that we should surrender to our circumstances or be defined by them. The spirit is to subjugate the flesh not the other way around.

Perhaps this is one of the tests we must overcome before being fit for Zion? When you think of it those called would not be fit if they put men and society above God and principle.
You gravely misunderstand how Joseph would respond in this situation in my opinion. This quote fits to a T and should inform our own responses:
It is one evidence that men are unacquainted with the principles of godliness to behold the contraction of affectionate feelings and lack of charity in the world. The power and glory of godliness is spread out on a broad principle to throw out the mantle of charity. God does not look on sin with allowance, but when men have sinned, there must be allowance made for them.The nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs. …

All the religious world is boasting of righteousness: it is the doctrine of the devil to retard the human mind, and hinder our progress, by filling us with self-righteousness.

...We must walk uprightly all the daylong. How glorious are the principles of righteousness! We are full of selfishness; the devil flatters us that we are very righteous, when we are feeding on the faults of others. We can only live by worshiping our God; all must do it for themselves; none can do it for another.

“… How oft have wise men and women sought to dictate Brother Joseph by saying, ‘Oh, if I were Brother Joseph, I would do this and that;’ but if they were in Brother Joseph’s shoes they would find that men or women could not be compelled into the kingdom of God, but must be dealt with in long-suffering, and at last we shall save them. The way to keep all the Saints together, and keep the work rolling, is to wait with all long-suffering, till God shall bring such characters to justice. There should be no license for sin, but mercy should go hand in hand with reproof.”(History of the Church, 5:24; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on June 9, 1842, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Eliza R. Snow.)
First of all Brienox, that discourse or talk, (IMO) is quite a stretch of that to just blanket cover over the LGBTQRSTUV community. Joseph was talking about the daily imperfections, faults, and also some what you could say are even more grave sins ... But never have I read in any early LDS history of Joseph having to deal with any member practicing homosexuality.
" There should be no license for sin but mercy should go hand and hand with REPROOF..
Reproof is what is being eliminated. And then the legal licensing of that sin has already happened. You do not sin unless you act? think it all the day long but if you do not act there is no sin? what ever happened to " garnish thy thoughts with virtue unceasingly" and " if a man even looketh upon a woman to lust after her he has already committed adultery in his heart"...
All this love love love talk is doing nothing but coddling and promoting the lgbtq agenda. Sin is sin is sin, be it adultery, homosexuality, lesbianism, hypocrisy, pride, selfishness, etc etc etc.. so many ways to sin they can't be numbered ... but to welcome that lifestyle in our homes for our children to see and to set an example of this new age love fest going on is ridiculous. I'm sorry but the church is wrong on this, that church promoted Macintosh video is pathetic to say the least...
Thus far in our house that has not been an issue ( thank God) with our children, aunts , uncles, cousins , etc. but no question it is getting very close to home. I have taught my children it is a sin and it will not be tolerated, period, to the point of disowning my own if necessary. there is such a thing as " tough love" ... We are commanded to repent lest He destroy us. Yes we are to love our enemy's and do good to those that despitfully use us, but to twist that into loving and accepting the lgbtq community is an embarrassing stretch of charity. I would say it makes love and charity hide their faces in shame...
Now the only thing I have ever read in scriptures that you could twist into something a little favorable to the lgbtq agenda is that Jesus said it would be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah than the hypocritical Sadducees and Pharisees in the day of judgment. So yes there are worse sins, but, it still does not justify a complacent attitude towards them..
And again look what apostle Paul says....

Romans 1:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.....


"they which commit such things are worthy of death" , that does not sound like the new age loving Jesus we're told about today. but then again our church and christian society has almost made Jesus out to be gay, or very feminine to say the least...

God have mercy on us all, which, looking around today how could He but have mercy and very long suffering putting up with us and all our sins....

"We first endure, then pity, then embrace". we are between the pity and embracing stage, actually right at the embracing doorstep...

simpleton
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Re: LDS Church issues statement of support for LGBTQ concert event

Post by simpleton »

Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.


Now those are a few words coming from the real Jesus....

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