Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

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BrotherOfMahonri
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Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

Curious to know why Apostles are advising in legal matters esp. when it is about millions upon millions of dollars in a trust fund that obviously gives to the church? Should apostles be involved as "board advisors" of any wealthy trust fund or family not related to their own family?

Seems to me that the Romney boys being involved, as well as two apostles speaks to maybe money being too important in the lives of some members enough to state that apostle's advice is basically spiritually legally binding to the family.

Video:
This link goes to an exmormon group on reddit, but has some interesting articles and links to the case (you've been warned, go in with your solid faith in Christ and testimony or bust :D - be not afraid to give an answer for you have the truth? )
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... ty_over_a/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Snippets from case:
Your Honor, we’re serious about doing whatever these old guys tell us to do with our money. We’ve been singing songs about it since we were three years old. In fact, there’s not a “single instance” when we’ve ever deviated, and we’re not about to start now.
“Although Elder Andersen described his role as a ‘spiritual’ guide rather than a ‘legal’ arbiter, the technical distinction between ecclesiastical guidance and legal rulings made no practical difference to the Board…. Under these facts, the Apostles’ spiritual role yields the same result as a legal arbiter, so the Apostles did not need legal authority to bind the parties.” (See pg. 3 of Motion.)
TL;DR: Judge, we’re all TBM’s, so if an apostle even subtly hints at taking a certain course of action, we take that expression of “spiritual guidance” as legally binding on us. Because … covenants … and priesthood sealing keys to “bind” things.
Something I also would ask about involvement of this personal family case.
Why does this family get two Apostles to personally advise them about family disputes? (See Paragraphs 3-4 of Affidavit)
It’s not about the money. We swear. It’s just “pastoral advice” we give to every member who wants it. It’s not like we have a scriptural directive to preach the gospel to all nations or anything else more pressing. The Lord’s first priority is to do everything possible to ensure this family [read: their assets] remain in the fold.

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Obrien
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by Obrien »

Interesting find BoM. It confirms what "the work" really is in our current times. :(

BrotherOfMahonri
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

Obrien wrote:Interesting find BoM. It confirms what "the work" really is in our current times. :(
I swear (ok I don't really swear that often, but more so of late to cope with living in East Bench Provo amongst so many sweet spirits ;) - I think I'm understanding you more greatly now (wink))

- I woke up to the freedom of my personal study of the gospel this morning in the New Testament (my favorite for this year Mark 11 & 12 esp.) (something I look forward to each Sunday Morning) and here I ended up (typical of late) - per my seeking diligently this "witness" everyone seems to have and I want (so I can be worthy of worshiping God in his temples I guess) that they are seers and revelators called by God himself. I feel however every time I am seeking such it only distances itself further and further, while my faith in Christ alone and his restored gospel increases.

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Obrien
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by Obrien »

I've given up asking for a witness of human leaders. If the Lord gives me a witness of them, I'm in. If I don't receive one, I'll assume it is irrelevant to my salvation. I don't write this intending disrespect - it is simply my viewpoint at this time. I hope you get whatever witness you need, BoM. :ymhug:

Stacy Oliver
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by Stacy Oliver »

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

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Obrien
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by Obrien »

Stacy, as is par for the course, your comment makes no sense. No one on this thread is accusing anyone. We're just making simple comments about the state of the world and the church.

You, on the other hand, apparently are accusing BoM and me of being confederate with Lucifer. THAT'S an accusation.

Stacy Oliver
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by Stacy Oliver »

Obrien wrote:Stacy, as is par for the course, your comment makes no sense. No one on this thread is accusing anyone. We're just making simple comments about the state of the world and the church.

You, on the other hand, apparently are accusing BoM and me of being confederate with Lucifer. THAT'S an accusation.
"Speaks to maybe money being too important in the lives of some members" isn't an accusation?

"It confirms what "the work" really is in our current times. :(" Isn't an accusation?

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durangout
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by durangout »

Stacy Oliver wrote:
Obrien wrote:Stacy, as is par for the course, your comment makes no sense. No one on this thread is accusing anyone. We're just making simple comments about the state of the world and the church.

You, on the other hand, apparently are accusing BoM and me of being confederate with Lucifer. THAT'S an accusation.
"Speaks to maybe money being too important in the lives of some members" isn't an accusation?

"It confirms what "the work" really is in our current times. :(" Isn't an accusation?
No worries Stacy Oliver. They only see what they want to see.

Kitkat
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by Kitkat »

Stacy Oliver wrote:And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Ouch.
What is an accuser? Even a defense lawyer tries to learn the whole truth.

Surely one can examine facts without fear of being cast down. The truth is what will set free or not

Stacy Oliver
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by Stacy Oliver »

Kitkat wrote:
Stacy Oliver wrote:And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Ouch.
What is an accuser? Even a defense lawyer tries to learn the whole truth.

Surely one can examine facts without fear of being cast down. The truth is what will set free or not
What truth is at issue here? Whether the apostles give advice?

Some people spend their lives searching for faults in the Brethren. Are they searching for truth or for motes?

BrotherOfMahonri
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

Obrien wrote:I've given up asking for a witness of human leaders. If the Lord gives me a witness of them, I'm in. If I don't receive one, I'll assume it is irrelevant to my salvation. I don't write this intending disrespect - it is simply my viewpoint at this time. I hope you get whatever witness you need, BoM. :ymhug:
Thanks!

I'm not sure many would like the kind of witness I'm getting, but it is a witness the restored gospel offers all.

BrotherOfMahonri
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

Stacy Oliver wrote:
Kitkat wrote:
Stacy Oliver wrote:And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Ouch.
What is an accuser? Even a defense lawyer tries to learn the whole truth.

Surely one can examine facts without fear of being cast down. The truth is what will set free or not
What truth is at issue here? Whether the apostles give advice?

Some people spend their lives searching for faults in the Brethren. Are they searching for truth or for motes?
It seems the Savior found many faults in the "brethren" of his days, are you suggesting he spent his life searching for motes in the brethren or was he speaking the truth he obviously had to search out with the then brethren (high priests) and their teachings - as they were doing more or less than His gospel?

I seek to the truth, even the spirit of truth, and if the spirit shows me good men who lean to babylon, I will follow that truth and fear not fitting into the nomral-accepted traditions of the brethren, in following the prophet or be damned to hell as you just "accused" myself and others of.

If it matters than it will come through - if it doesn't matter than it will slip down through the cracks, I simply posted it as many here will know more than I do or have taken more time and usually have better info than I can find. You will notice as well that most your and others like you LDSFF statements are statements of fact, often accusing more than anyone else on here, rather than HEAVENLY INSPIRED QUESTIONS...

I am dying for the day when those who supposedly have the truth in their bosoms allow Heaven's guidance to ask questions that actually help people instead of the false assumptions and accusations all to familiar now with many-a-Mormon (not all, but many).

Oh, and to quote one of my last fully active, but gets it mormon friends, Stacy Oliver, you best be damned sure about your accusations or you just might be damned for it (judged as you judge others). [-( :ymblushing:

BrotherOfMahonri
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

An invite to think of it this way... worthless testimony...
Suppose your youth receive their impressions of church history from

“pictures and stories” and build their faith upon these alleged

miracles [and] shall someday come face to face with the fact that their

belief rests on falsehoods, what then will be the result? Will they not

say that since these things are myth and our Church has permitted

them to be perpetuated...might not the other fundamentals to the

actual story of the Church, the things in which it had its origin, might

they not all be lies and nothing but lies? ... [Some say that] because

one repudiates the false he stands in danger of weakening, perhaps

losing the truth. I have no fear of such results. I find my own heart

strengthened in the truth by getting rid of the untruth, the

spectacular, the bizarre, as soon as I learn that it is based upon

worthless testimony. (Defender of the Faith: The B. H. Roberts

Story, p. 363.)
So it is the Holy Spirit leading me to understand the false traditions of the brethren as much as it was for Christ with the false traditions of the "brethren" of his time so that the precious youth God seems to put in my pathway DO NOT THROW it all away for having discovered a buttered up story or lie - but consider the gospel restored outside the correlated control of man.

There is a falling away of the youth more than most Mormons, esp. leaders understand, because of the buttered up lies and history and the youth's search for knowledge but also the misinformation available to them, more available it seems than honest answers and open discussion from within the church - my desire and goal is to help those youth discover the beauty of the Gospel restored which beauty my wife and children are now seeing for having followed the voice of Christ to where we could see the truth outside the authority, control, or ill inspiration of well meaning men.

BrotherOfMahonri
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

...while I believe all that God has revealed, I am not quite sure that I understand what he has revealed, and the fact that he has promised further revelation is to me a challenge to keep an open mind and be prepared to follow wherever my search for truth may lead

....We have been blessed with much knowledge by revelation from God which, in some part, the world lacks. But there is an incomprehensibly greater part of truth which we must yet discover.

Our revealed truth should leave us stricken with the knowledge of how little we really know.

It should never lead to an emotional arrogance based upon a false assumption that we somehow have all the answers--that we in fact have a corner on truth....Preserve...the freedom of your mind in education and in religion, and be unafraid to express your thoughts and to insist upon your right to examine every proposition. We are not so much concerned with whether your thoughts are orthodox or heterodox as we are that you shall have thoughts. (Hugh B. Brown, BYU May 13, 1969 address, “An Eternal Quest: Freedom of the Mind.” )

BrotherOfMahonri
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Re: Will Cardon, Romney Kids, Elder Anderson, Elder Ballard - Trust Fund Dispute

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

^^^ I think President Uchtdorf said it well...
“How often has the Holy Spirit tried to tell us something we needed to know but past the massive iron gate of what we thought we already knew?”

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