Reality check...re: weapons?

[Lamoni'sBFF]

Let me preface with saying that I believe we have a greater than 50% chance that the economy and government system will collapse in the next 3-5 years. Furthermore, I am familiar with the various prophecies of Charles D Evans, John Taylor, Heber C Kimball, etc.

With that stated, and knowing that a few of you think things will start to happen this fall, if things are going to get so bad that we will need weapons and ammunition to defend our families...why are we not counseled to do that or anything similar? Even a little bit?

Interested in your thoughts....

[NoGreaterLove]

Maybe we do not need them. Or..................we need to rely upon personal revelation because everyone's circumstances are different! I have always prayed that I will not have to harm anyone in the coming fray. But............if I do, I am prepared and will not hesitate.

[M249Gunner]

why are we not counseled to do that or anything similar?

Where do you get that???

We are counseled to obtain weapons. I recently read a talk by an early general authority or prophet (my wife thinks J Golden Kimball, I thought it was G.A. Smith, but I don't remember wherein the saints were counseled to purchase swords for their wives instead of bonnets. My wife was wanting a sword at about this time, so I gave in and bought her one.

You may say that counsel was given a long time ago, however I have never heard that counsel rescinded. Besides, it seems common sense to be prepared in that way. Besides, the Utah constitution requires everyone between the ages of 14 and 64 (?) to have a military weapon, if I remember correctly. It states that if we can't afford our own, the state should purchase the weapons for us, or something to that effect. I don't remember exactly because it has been quite a while since I have read it. Besides all that, like I said, it is just common sense to be armed and foolishness to be unarmed, and to rely on someone else to protect you. What gives you the right to require or expect someone else to put their life in danger to protect you when you aren't willing to do it yourself?? The best way to protect yourself is with a firearm. The supreme court has already stated that it isn't a cop's duty to protect you.

Furthermore, free men must be armed to stay free. You shouldn't have to be counseled to be armed, just as you shouldn't have to be counseled to wake up in the morning, take a shower, eat breakfast, and to go to work. It is just plain common sense.

[M249Gunner]

Another prophet said it is better to carry a weapon for many years and not need it than to need one for a few minutes and not to have it. That is heavily paraphrased. I don't remember the exact quote, but that is the jist of it. I am sure someone else hear can give the proper attribution, because, as usual, I don't remember.

[M249Gunner]

Christ told the apostles to sell their cloak and buy a sword if they didn't have one.

[M249Gunner]

Joseph Smith had common sense enough to have a pistol and to use it when he was in Carthage Jail. I suppose he was meant to seal his testimony in blood, however he set the great example that we should be armed and fight for our lives and the lives of those around us.

[Lamoni'sBFF]

J Golden Kimball only, and no reference? I'm not saying we won't need them, but why have I never heard anything even close to it from the pulpit when we hear so much about the rest of the ways we need to prepare. Can't someone provide a documentable reference?

[lundbaek]

The Church is not overtly advising its members to arms because the leadership is very concerned about its public image. A major goal is to "bring the Church out of obscurity and create good will".

[Lamoni'sBFF]

The Church is not overtly advising its members to arms because the leadership is very concerned about its public image. A major goal is to "bring the Church out of obscurity and create good will".

I agree with that being at least why we don't hear more than we do....but, why don't we have any inferences. You could use the "prepare every needful thing" argument for anything you want.

One of my reasons for this post other than curiosity on other's thoughts is that my maternal gpa (who is now deceased) went over board on this issue. I fear that for some members as things get worse and the brethren aren't telling them to get guns, bunker down, fight it out, etc., then they will lose their faith in the church leadership somewhat or totally. I don't think gun preparation should be our primary focus, and if it is we would be missing the mark.

[lundbaek]

Any inferences at all Re. guns could be used against the Church, especially be those looking for reasons to attack theChurch and/or the anti-gun crowd.

This is just one of several issues that convince me that LDSs generally hardly dare take initiative without being commanded. I can just imaging that if the FP inferred we should have some means of self-protection, members would be asking if that meant a gun or someting less formidable. Next thing, they'll be waiting for the FP to tell them how to grind their wheat.

[armedtotheteeth]

We don’t need to be commanded in all things especially as something as common sense at being armed and ready to defend yourself. The brethren are guarded by ARMED bodyguards that wont hesitate to shoot and kill someone if there is an attempt on their lives. It sounds like they are prepared to me. Should we not follow this example? It is a good PR move not to discus the doctrine of self defense and firearms. That’s why you don’t hear that fact that Joseph was armed, as M249Gunner has aptly pointed out. There are many doctrines that the church avoids giving official statements/preaching in church, but it does not change the vitality or truth of the doctrine. Here is a must read for LDSs.

http://preparenownewsletter.blogspot.co ... fense.html

[Lamoni'sBFF]

Armed, excellent link.

I agree with previous posts about the church not wanting to talk about this even if they did want the members to do so. I do wonder though to what level they would like us to prepare.

[lundbaek]

Those who cannot decide for themselves the extent to which they should arm themselves could ask their bishop/branch president for advice - and be willing to act on that advice. If the bishop/branch president declines to advise specifically enough, the ball is back in the member's court, and he/she is free to do whatever he/she feels best about.

[Lamoni'sBFF]

I do wonder though to what level they would like us to prepare.

Pray about it and find out for yourself...no need to wait for someone else to tell you how to live your life!

I don't ask for myself. I grew up with guns and have what I feel is necessary. I ask because I see myself as the anomaly. My ward outside of Utah has a bunch of guys that grew up hunting a time or two, but don't own any guns. Then there are all the members who never have even shot a gun in their life. What troubles me is if they are not directly counseled to do so, they will not get anything. That leaves me with two conclusions:

1-those that do will help those that don't, yet "deserve" the help

2-they won't be needed as anticipated

There may be other options I'm not thinking of, but if you go with number one then how do you decide who you help out?


My theory on the whole thing is that potentially we could be called to gather before the time arises that chaos would require their usage (that would be option #2). I'm not saying I feel this is what will happen, but it seems more likely to me. On the other hand, that group of guys in my ward have individually felt prompted or even just the desire to get a gun. Who knows which path we'll take...

[armedtotheteeth]

Like you, I hope we never have to use deadly force against our brothers. I pray the lord will have a place of refuge already prepared for all of us so we will not use our firearms except for hunting and perimeter patrol on our new found safe havens. I don’t know……... just a hope. I have seen a lot more church members (in my networks) looking at getting some type of firearm for defense, people that otherwise never would…..maybe the spirit at work? Maybe that’s how it will happen. Just a guess.

[armedtotheteeth]

BEAUTIFUL!!

[Oldemandalton]

My personal opinion is that having the companionship of the Holy Ghost will be more important than having a gun. The Holy Ghost will be there to warn and protect us. It is imperative that we as Fathers and Mothers receive the revelation that will be necessary to save our family's lives during the coming storms. We must be worthy to receive His promptings AND know how to recognize it when it comes. This can only be done with practice. There will be no sudden repentance when things get desperate and expect revelation instantly. We must prepare now and have the practice of receiving daily personal revelation in our lives now. If we wait I am afraid it will be too late.

Having means of protecting our families, neighbors, and nation will be important. It will be the Holy Ghost who will tell us when it will be appropriate to use or NOT use our weapons. There were many instances when God told men to take up arms. There were other times in the past when we were told NOT to fight. In order to know God’s Will we must be attuned and be familiar with that Spirit. Then we must be brave enough to harken unto it whichever answer He gives.

Other than the Holy Ghost the next important weapon to have in our arsenal is our priesthood in combination with the Holy Ghost and revelation. With those two weapons armies will be destroyed in the Last days. So, yes, buy guns and ammo but more importantly get acquainted with the Holy Ghost and Revelation AND increase your Power in the Priesthood. These are what will save our Families, our Communities and our Nation in the days to come.

Gun Nut and Priesthood Holder
Old Man Dalton

[armedtotheteeth]

Other than the Holy Ghost the next important weapon to have in our arsenal is our priesthood in combination with the Holy Ghost and revelation. With those two weapons armies will be destroyed in the Last days. So, yes, buy guns and ammo but more importantly get acquainted with the Holy Ghost and Revelation AND increase your Power in the Priesthood. These are what will save our Families, our Communities and our Nation in the days to come.

Very well put! I would take being armed with righteousness over being armed with steel. The lord can do more for our safety then we can do for ourselves.

[mirkwood]

The Controversial Item: http://rogmo.com/controversial.html







As for this people fostering to themselves that the day has come for them to sell their guns and ammunition to their enemies, and sit down to sleep in peace, they will find themselves deceived and before they know, they will sleep until they are slain. They have got to carry weapons with them, to be ready to send their enemy to hell cross lots, whether they be Lamanites or mobs who may come to take their lives, or destroy their property. We must be prepared that they dare not come to us in a hostile manner without being assured they will meet a vigorous resistance and ten to one they will meet their grave."

Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, Vol 1, P . 171 - 172, July 31, 1853


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"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

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"Now the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies, even to the shedding of blood if it were necessary; yea, and they were also taught never to give an offense, yea, and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives." Alma 48:14

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"And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go to defend themselves against their enemies, and by so doing, the Lord would deliver them; and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity." Alma 48:16

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"And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion." Alma 43:47

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"We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded." Doctrine and Covenants 134:11

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"Not only should we have strong spiritual homes, but we should have strong temporal homes. We should avoid bondage by getting out of debt as soon as we can, pay as we go, and live within our incomes. There is wisdom in having on hand a year's supply of food, clothing, fuel (if possible), and in being preparing to defend our families and our possessions and to take care of ourselves. I believe a man should prepare for the worst while working for the best."
Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 263-264.

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"We all believe that the Lord will fight our battles; but how? Will He do it while we are unconcerned and make no effort whatever for our own safety when an enemy is upon us? If we make no effort to guard our towns, our houses, our cities, our wives and children, will the Lord guard them for us? He will not; but if we pursue the opposite course and strive to help Him to accomplish His designs, then will He fight our battles. We are baptized for the remission of sins; but it would be quite as unreasonable to expect a remission of sins without baptism, as to expect the Lord to fight our battles without our taking every precaution to be prepared to defend ourselves. The Lord requires us to be quite as willing to fight our own battles as to have Him fight them for us. If we are not ready for an enemy when he comes upon us, we have not lived up to the requirements of Him who guides the ship of Zion, or who dictates the affairs of his kingdom."

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 131, August 1-10, 1865.

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"There is one principle which is eternal; it is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of the household, whenever necessity requires, and no power has the right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive, but I anticipate no such extreme, but caution is the parent of safety."

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six, 1843-44, p. 391.

[mirkwood]

Found this one too:

In reference to 3 Nephi 4:33* President Hinckley said:
"While we must have science, while we must have education, while we must have arms, we must also have righteousness if we are to merit the protection of God" (Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, 40).

*33 And their hearts were swollen with joy, unto the gushing out of many tears, because of the great goodness of God in delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; and they knew it was because of their repentance and their humility that they had been delivered from an everlasting destruction.

[mirkwood]

Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 263-264.
“Not only should we have strong spiritual homes, but we should have strong temporal homes. We should avoid bondage by getting out of debt as soon as we can, pay as we go, and live within our incomes. There is wisdom in having on hand a year's supply of food, clothing, fuel (if possible), and in being prepared to defend our families and our possessions and to take care of ourselves. I believe a man should prepare for the worst while working for the best.”

[preparednesspro]

why are we not counseled to do that or anything similar?

Where do you get that???

Working in the emergency preparedness realm, it frustrates me to no end that firearms are never even brought up -- except for killing a rabid dog or hunting. What about self defense? Emergency preparedness is truly incomplete without firearms and ammunition. It's no sense in storing anything if it can be stolen right out from under you without anyway to prevent it.

http://preparednesspro.wordpress.com/20 ... %e2%80%9d/

Furthermore, might I add that having firearms is not only to protect your stores, but your family. Imagine you have gang members at your door demanding food, but then they see your teenage daughter. How will you protect her virtue against armed gang members with your bare hands?

YES, the Holy Ghost is imperative in our lives. But preparing every needful thing is your personal responsibility. We do everything we can do and the Lord makes up the rest.

[lost ark]

The counsel is there for those who wish to have it.

Alma 54: 12 And behold, if ye do not this, I will come against you with my armies; yea, even I will arm my women and my children, and I will come against you, and I will follow you even into your own land, which is the land of our first inheritance; yea, and it shall be blood for blood, yea, life for life; and I will give you battle even until you are destroyed from off the face of the earth.

"Let me say to all of you learn to be true and faithful and instead of laying out your means for fine bonnets and fine shoes and for coffee and tea my advice to you is, if you can [sic] 5 or 10 dollars, go and buy a good blanket, a gun, or a sword. And we want you, ladies, to provide yourselves with weapons, and with all that is necessary and be ready to defend yourselves, for you won't always have your husbands to defend you." Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses 4:376.

[Lamoni'sBFF]

The counsel is there for those who wish to have it.

So, my reason for posting this thread and titling it "reality check" was to evaluate the situation with logic and hypothesize about the facts.

What percentage of the church do you think has weapons? Don't just think of your typical ward in Salina, Utah either. Think of wards in Seattle, Manhattan, etc. when coming up with that nationwide percentage.

If you think that number is as small as I do, what is going to happen to all those that don't have weapons?

[ithink]

Imagine you have gang members at your door demanding food, but then they see your teenage daughter. How will you protect her virtue against armed gang members with your bare hands?

Exactly! You are a wise man! I have two daughters. Because of them and my wife, we have armed ourselves. Our boys are learning to shoot too. It is heartening to see your 14 year old son shoot the eye out of a fish head at 30 yards with his .22. I hate getting prepared, but this is one aspect of getting prepared that can be a lot of fun.