The Davidic end time servant is NOT Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately most members don't care enough about studying the scriptures
and the time it takes to find out the real truth of these things.
But as Jesus said -
"for great are the words of Isaiah"
3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."
2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."
(we as members are Gentiles)
3 "And all things that he spake (have been and shall be),
even according to the words which he spake."
4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."
"We as members and Gentiles, and also the entire World, will have two choices when the
Davidic King arrives: we will either
(1) harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction; or else
(2) we will repent and prepare to join Zion.
There will be a complete division between the righteous and the wicked in that day."
I believe that John is the marred servant - the prophet - the Davidic king
the end time servant that we all are watching and waiting for to come.
I believe he will have Christ's words. He will bring forth a record,
(the sealed portion of the (B of M) yet many (church and church members)
will not believe him or receive his words., and they will be cut off from the Lord.
3 Nephi 21: 8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
This is not Joseph Smith, because this "servant", "shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him", Joseph Smith was killed.
I believe this marred servant, marred because most members
will not believe his words is John.
The "marred servant" is John the beloved
He will be a descendent of Jesse, or of the
royal Davidic lineage.
he will be a righteous ruler because he will
judge the people, hence he is a Davidic king.
A “sweet” but “bitter” assignment Rev 10:9-11 (See D&C 77:12, 14.)
9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
D&C 77
14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was
eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance,
for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias,
who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.
It is this mission, ( he saw himself in Revelations)
what his own mission would be; to gather Israel
in the last days, and be an Elias - a forerunner
to the coming of Christ. Just as John the Baptist
was an Elias - a forerunner to Christ.
For this important mission he (John the Rev.)
has tarried in the flesh for 19 centuries.
He is the "Root of Jessie" in Isaiah 11,
also the Davidic King and may also be the
Man like Moses, and whom rightly belongs,
who holds the keys of the
priesthood and the kingdom.
D&C113:4-6 6 "Behold, thus saith the Lord,
it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph,
unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood,
and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign,
and for the gathering of my people in the last days"
D&C113
1 Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in the
1st, 2d, 3d, 4th, and 5th verses of the
11th chapter of Isaiah?
2 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is Christ.
3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the
11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?
4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ,
who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim,
or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.
5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse,
as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood,
and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign,
and for the gathering of my people in the last days.
3 Nephi 21:10
10 "But behold, the life of my servant
shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him,
although he shall be marred because of them.
Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them
that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil."
Isaiah 52:15 "sprinkle many nations"
Joseph Smith translated this to be -
"Gather many nation" see JS trans.
Isaiah 52:
14 "As many were astonished at thee;
his visage was so marred more than any man,
and his form more than the sons of men:
15 So shall he sprinkle (JST GATHER) many nations;
the kings shall shut their mouths at him:
for that which had not been told them shall they see;
and that which they had not heard shall they consider."
Sealed portion of The Book of Mormon
Ether 4:
13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.
14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
16 And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed.
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avraham-gileadi-davidic-servant/
The Gentiles, will harm and mar this Servant. On account of this, even as the Davidic Servant will be "marred", he will be completely healed by the LORD. This healing might involve him being "translated" and also his receiving of his "Calling and Election made sure". This healing will be truly miraculous for all to see.
The Davidic King will prepare the way for Christ's return. The Davidic King will have a three-year ministry that reaches to the world and warns the entire world of what is to come. Similarly, the 144,000 and also the ANGELS will gather the righteous from throughout the world. But the tribulations of that day will probably have begun before the Davidic King's official ministry to the World has started. We Gentiles, and also the entire World, will have two choices when the Davidic King arrives: we will either (1) harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction; or else (2) we will repent and prepare to join Zion. There will be a complete division between the righteous and the wicked in that day.
The Great and Marvelous Work will probably not begin until the Davidic King's three-year official ministry starts. We have not seen the "Great and Marvelous Work", yet; . This event is still future and it will be incredible. Among other things, the Davidic King will completely restore House of Israel.
Gileadi
page 4
The Gathering of Israel’s Outcasts from Exile
A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people whom God saves in the end but those who are rejected by the majority. These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8). In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8).
From Isaiah, Gileadi has indicated that this Davidic servant is
rejected by the church and so are the ones that choose to follow him.
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also some other quotes on this Davidic servant
Davidic Servant (also Branch Prophet, One Mighty and Strong; see also Messiah, Immanuel)
(1) Those who function in the order of the Davidic Servant, making up the quorum of 144,000.
(2) A servant of God who cries repentance to the Lord's latter-day people who have lapsed into apostasy from their destined mission to establish the kingdom of God on the earth.
He will be marred by them and then healed by the Lord in conjunction with a marvelous deliverance of an awakened remnant who will build Zion.
(3) The Davidic Servant will be to the Mormons what Joseph Smith was to Christianity and what Jesus Christ was to the Jews and what Moses was to Paganism -- a quantum leap forward; new wine, unfit for old bottles.
(4) The Davidic Servant is a Messianic role of the Father,
who is one with the Son, who came among the Jews.
-------------------------------------------------
Most importantly, he is to the Mormons what Jesus was to the Jews. He is the second advent of Messiah. He is the one mighty and strong sent to set the house of God in order.
The Mormons are prophesied to mar the Davidic Servant, in a parallel to the Jews' crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The triumphal regeneration or healing following that marring will be on a parallel with the resurrection. And as Jesus' mission was about individual salvation, the Davidic Servant's mission will be about societal salvation; and in conjunction with his healing will come a miraculous deliverance from the governmental beast which will have taken a stranglehold upon the entire earth at that point. A nation will be born in a day. The kingdom of God will be established on earth, no more to be thrown down. It will be Zion, a celestial people and city. It will start small, but will eventually (after the next 1000 years) fill the whole earth. Meanwhile, (as most citizens of the earth following the pending tribulations will be of a terrestrial order, none telestial having made it through the purgings of their own making) this Zion will be the capital of the world government that will reign in righteousness under Christ for 1000 years.
When the Mormons mar the Davidic Servant is when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled. They will have filled the measure of their iniquity, and the kingdom will be taken from them and given back to the house of Israel. Then is when the 144,000 go forth to bring in as many as will to the church of the firstborn, which is a celestial order. The world at large will still be very wicked during this time, for the final purgings of the whole earth have not yet happened. The Jews will not yet be converted.
The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
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The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
Last edited by I AM on March 31st, 2018, 9:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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I AM
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Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
Avraham Gileadi
Isaiah 11
1 A shoot will spring up from the stock of Jesse
and a branch from its graft bear fruit.
While chapter 10 ends with imagery depicting the archtyrant’s hewing down trees, chapter 11 begins with tree imagery infused with hope. The tree that represents Jehovah’s people, however—viably an olive tree (Jeremiah 11:16; Hosea 14:5-6)—doesn’t at first bear fruit, at least not good fruit (cf. Isaiah 5:1-2). The horticultural process Isaiah describes shows that its purpose is to cause the tree again to “bear fruit” (yipreh). While its “stock” or “trunk” (geza‘) is identified with Jesse, the father of King David, the “shoot,” “watersprout,” or “sucker” (hoter) that springs from it is wild by nature.
The third member of Isaiah’s olive tree allegory is the “branch” (neser) that “bears fruit,” representing the final stage of a threefold process. In effect, when an olive tree no longer bears good fruit it can (1) be cut down, or (2) kept growing if one or more limbs show signs of life. In this case, such a limb is the watersprout, the kind of shoot that grows straight up from a tree’s trunk but doesn’t itself bear fruit. For that reason, farmers lop them off in the spring. If the watersprout can keep the tree alive, however, then it may be permitted to grow until it becomes sufficiently strong to support a graft.
Isaiah provides a clue to the identity of the branch in the “sprig,” “root,” or “graft” (sores) of verse 10. When grafted into the shoot or watersprout, the sprig—a tame olive tree variety—may eventually grow into a fruit-bearing branch and become a newly regenerated tree. As does the sprig (v 10) that becomes the branch (v 1), the stock and shoot represent persons instrumental in empowering the tree—Jehovah’s covenant people—to again bear fruit. Because of the principle of “the one and the many,” each individual additionally represents the people associated with his particular phase of the process.
A shoot will spring up from the stock of Jesse. The wild nature of the shoot or watersprout suggests a connection with the Gentiles who interact with Israel’s ethnic lineages (cf. Romans 11). Certain kings and queens of the Gentiles, for example, play a key role in the end-time restoration of Jehovah’s people: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah: ‘I will lift up my hand to the Gentiles, raise my ensign to the peoples; and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings shall be your foster fathers, queens your nursing mothers’” (Isaiah 49:22-23; emphasis added).
The assimilation of many Israelites into the Gentile nations following Israel’s ancient exile has led to two kinds of end-time lineages of Jehovah’s people: (1) ethnic; and (2) assimilated. The wild nature of the shoot suggests an identity with Israel’s assimilated lineages. While these keep the tree alive, in the end they bear no fruit and are mostly cut off so that the sprig may be grafted in. In that case, the assimilated lineages who are cut off represent Jehovah’s people who are destroyed in his Day of Judgment, while the assimilated lineages who sustain the graft are the kings and queens of the Gentiles.
The identity of the shoot, stock, and branch appears from clues in Isaiah’s olive tree allegory.
The words “of Jesse” (vv 1, 10) yield a Davidic and messianic identity for all three individuals.
The sprig that is grafted into the shoot—which becomes the fruit-bearing branch—is Jehovah’s end-time servant who represents Israel’s ethnic lineages (vv 10-12; Isaiah 4:2). The shoot into which the sprig is grafted—that does not, in the end, bear fruit—is a servant of Jehovah who represents Israel’s assimilated lineages.
The stock is Jehovah, who represents his people Israel as a whole (cf. Isaiah 53:2).
2 The Spirit of Jehovah will rest upon him—the spirit of wisdom and of understanding,the spirit of counsel and of valor,the spirit of knowledgeand of the fear of Jehovah.
Although all three messianic individuals in Isaiah’s olive tree allegory evidence the divine attributes here listed, grammatically they apply to the last one mentioned—the branch—Jehovah’s end-time servant. Word links confirm that identity: “My servant whom I sustain, my chosen one in whom I delight, him I have endowed with my Spirit; he will dispense justice to the nations” (Isaiah 42:1); “He will be called Wonderful Counsellor, One Mighty in Valor” (Isaiah 9:6); “Because of his knowledge, and by bearing their iniquities, shall my servant, the righteous one, vindicate many” (Isaiah 53:11).
Based on the principle of “the one and the many,” moreover, those to whom Jehovah’s servant ministers, who emulate him (cf. Isaiah 8:16), come to demonstrate the same divine attributes: “My Spirit which is upon you and my words which I have placed in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth” (Isaiah 59:21); “I have charged my holy ones, called out my valiant ones: my anger is not upon those who take pride in me” (Isaiah 13:3); “Your faithfulness in time [of trial] shall prove to be a strength, your wisdom and knowledge your salvation; your fear of Jehovah shall be your riches” (Isaiah 33:6).
Isaiah 11
1 A shoot will spring up from the stock of Jesse
and a branch from its graft bear fruit.
While chapter 10 ends with imagery depicting the archtyrant’s hewing down trees, chapter 11 begins with tree imagery infused with hope. The tree that represents Jehovah’s people, however—viably an olive tree (Jeremiah 11:16; Hosea 14:5-6)—doesn’t at first bear fruit, at least not good fruit (cf. Isaiah 5:1-2). The horticultural process Isaiah describes shows that its purpose is to cause the tree again to “bear fruit” (yipreh). While its “stock” or “trunk” (geza‘) is identified with Jesse, the father of King David, the “shoot,” “watersprout,” or “sucker” (hoter) that springs from it is wild by nature.
The third member of Isaiah’s olive tree allegory is the “branch” (neser) that “bears fruit,” representing the final stage of a threefold process. In effect, when an olive tree no longer bears good fruit it can (1) be cut down, or (2) kept growing if one or more limbs show signs of life. In this case, such a limb is the watersprout, the kind of shoot that grows straight up from a tree’s trunk but doesn’t itself bear fruit. For that reason, farmers lop them off in the spring. If the watersprout can keep the tree alive, however, then it may be permitted to grow until it becomes sufficiently strong to support a graft.
Isaiah provides a clue to the identity of the branch in the “sprig,” “root,” or “graft” (sores) of verse 10. When grafted into the shoot or watersprout, the sprig—a tame olive tree variety—may eventually grow into a fruit-bearing branch and become a newly regenerated tree. As does the sprig (v 10) that becomes the branch (v 1), the stock and shoot represent persons instrumental in empowering the tree—Jehovah’s covenant people—to again bear fruit. Because of the principle of “the one and the many,” each individual additionally represents the people associated with his particular phase of the process.
A shoot will spring up from the stock of Jesse. The wild nature of the shoot or watersprout suggests a connection with the Gentiles who interact with Israel’s ethnic lineages (cf. Romans 11). Certain kings and queens of the Gentiles, for example, play a key role in the end-time restoration of Jehovah’s people: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah: ‘I will lift up my hand to the Gentiles, raise my ensign to the peoples; and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings shall be your foster fathers, queens your nursing mothers’” (Isaiah 49:22-23; emphasis added).
The assimilation of many Israelites into the Gentile nations following Israel’s ancient exile has led to two kinds of end-time lineages of Jehovah’s people: (1) ethnic; and (2) assimilated. The wild nature of the shoot suggests an identity with Israel’s assimilated lineages. While these keep the tree alive, in the end they bear no fruit and are mostly cut off so that the sprig may be grafted in. In that case, the assimilated lineages who are cut off represent Jehovah’s people who are destroyed in his Day of Judgment, while the assimilated lineages who sustain the graft are the kings and queens of the Gentiles.
The identity of the shoot, stock, and branch appears from clues in Isaiah’s olive tree allegory.
The words “of Jesse” (vv 1, 10) yield a Davidic and messianic identity for all three individuals.
The sprig that is grafted into the shoot—which becomes the fruit-bearing branch—is Jehovah’s end-time servant who represents Israel’s ethnic lineages (vv 10-12; Isaiah 4:2). The shoot into which the sprig is grafted—that does not, in the end, bear fruit—is a servant of Jehovah who represents Israel’s assimilated lineages.
The stock is Jehovah, who represents his people Israel as a whole (cf. Isaiah 53:2).
2 The Spirit of Jehovah will rest upon him—the spirit of wisdom and of understanding,the spirit of counsel and of valor,the spirit of knowledgeand of the fear of Jehovah.
Although all three messianic individuals in Isaiah’s olive tree allegory evidence the divine attributes here listed, grammatically they apply to the last one mentioned—the branch—Jehovah’s end-time servant. Word links confirm that identity: “My servant whom I sustain, my chosen one in whom I delight, him I have endowed with my Spirit; he will dispense justice to the nations” (Isaiah 42:1); “He will be called Wonderful Counsellor, One Mighty in Valor” (Isaiah 9:6); “Because of his knowledge, and by bearing their iniquities, shall my servant, the righteous one, vindicate many” (Isaiah 53:11).
Based on the principle of “the one and the many,” moreover, those to whom Jehovah’s servant ministers, who emulate him (cf. Isaiah 8:16), come to demonstrate the same divine attributes: “My Spirit which is upon you and my words which I have placed in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth” (Isaiah 59:21); “I have charged my holy ones, called out my valiant ones: my anger is not upon those who take pride in me” (Isaiah 13:3); “Your faithfulness in time [of trial] shall prove to be a strength, your wisdom and knowledge your salvation; your fear of Jehovah shall be your riches” (Isaiah 33:6).
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Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
Jehovah’s Servant and Son—His Forerunner
by Avraham Gileadi Ph.D.
The third part of Isaiah's Seven-Part Structure, which parallels Isaiah 9,10,11,12 with 41,42,43,44,45,46, depicts the mission of God’s End-Time “servant” and “son” who prepares God’s people for Jehovah’s coming to the earth. The context of each group of chapters is the same: Israel’s End-Time restoration. This consists of God’s people’s physical release from bondage, new exodus, new wandering in the wilderness, return from exile, and reconquest of the Land. These and other literary interconnections between the two groups of chapters show that Jehovah’s “servant” who appears in Isaiah 41,42,43,44,45,46 is the same person as the Davidic “son” who appears in Isaiah 9,10,11,12.
While Isaiah 41,42,43,44,45,46 highlights the conditional phase of the servant’s mission to restore God’s people, Isaiah 9,10,11,12 highlights its unconditional phase—that is, a phase subsequent to the servant’s restoration of God’s people. Spiritual and political enemies that he has to deal with include idolaters and the king of Assyria. The restorative events of Israel’s release from bondage, new exodus, new wandering in the wilderness, return from exile, and reconquest of the Land conclude with God’s presence with people in Zion (Isaiah 12:1–6; 46:13). The role of God’s servant and son thus resembles that of Moses, who sought to prepare God’s people to meet God.
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http://www.isaiahexplained.com/resource ... ime-events
24. The Davidic Monarchy
The institution of kings in Israel comes in response to repeated threats to the nation from the surrounding peoples during the reign of Israel’s judges. When Israel regresses in it allegiance to its God, it begins to lose his divine protection. Exacerbating the situation is that no unifying societal structure exists that governs people’s actions: “In those days there was no king in Israel, and every man did what was right in his own eyes” (Judges 17:6). On various occasions, judges such as Gideon are able to rally some of the Israel’s tribes to meet these enemy threats. But when the Philistines and other nations imperil Israel’s very existence, Israel’s elders come to the prophet Samuel and demand a king, one who can command all of Israel’s tribes to defend their land: “Make us a king to judge us like all the nations” (1 Samuel 8:5).
Under the terms of the Sinai Covenant, Israel as a whole has been required to keep God’s law in order for the people to receive his divine protection. Under the terms of the Davidic Covenant, on the other hand—which God institutes in response to Israel’s demands for a king—he requires only that the king to keeps his law while the people are required to keep the king’s law. Both covenants follow the pattern of ancient Near Eastern emperor–vassal covenants, in which Israel’s God plays the role of emperor and the people or their king play the role of vassal. For the people of Israel, the Davidic Covenant thus constitutes a lesser law—they now merely need to obey their king to obtain God’s protection. For the king, however, the Davidic Covenant is a higher law as he is now answerable for his people’s disloyalties to Israel’s God in order for God to extend his protection.
As all subsequent messianic prophecies and their fulfillment are based on these covenant patterns, it is important to gain a clear understanding of them or the idea of a messiah can lead to confusion. Why do Jews and Christians, for example retain such divergent messianic hopes—Jews anticipating a messiah who obtains his people’s divine protection or temporal salvation, and Christian adhering solely to the idea of a spiritual messiah, one who obtains his people salvation from sin? In Isaiah’s repeat scenario of ancient events, God’s raising up a Davidic king—his end-time servant—follows the type of his raising up King David in response to his people’s need for divine protection. That occurs at a time when his people’s enemies are imperiling their very existence, just as their enemies did anciently.
God’s end-time servant, in other words, fulfills Jewish expectations of a temporal messiah, one who answers for his people’s disloyalties to Israel’s God in the pattern of ancient Near Eastern emperor–vassal covenants. The idea of a Christian messiah, on the other hand—of a spiritual savior as vested in Jesus of Nazareth—has no precedent in the past that repeats itself in the end-time. Jehovah/Jesus doesn’t come to do physical battle in wars with Israel’s enemies in the pattern of King David—God’s servant does. Nor is the role of redeeming God’s people from their sins an end-time role. Rather, in an end-time context, Jehovah comes on the earth to reign as King of Zion after his servant has prepared a people to meet their God. In the interim, Jehovah gives his servant the victory over his enemies as he did King David. As a forerunner of Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth, the servant gathers and reunites Israel’s tribes, builds the temple in Jerusalem to which Jehovah comes, and establishes the political kingdom of God on the earth over which Jehovah reigns. Each messianic individual, in other words, plays a separate but complementary role.
King David and his righteous heirs, notably King Hezekiah, nevertheless act as types on a temporal level of Jehovah/Jesus’ proxy role on behalf of his people in obtaining their spiritual salvation. When projecting the idea of a spiritual messiah, Isaiah creates a composite of types: (1) of a Davidic king who is prosecuted on account of his people’s disloyalties to God in the pattern of emperor–vassal covenants (Isaiah 53:4–6, 8); and (2) of a sacrificial lamb that acts as “an offering for guilt” (‘asam) under the Law of Moses (Isaiah 53:7, 10). That is different from what most messianic prophecies depict, which deal with the redemptive mission of a latter-day David. As noted, moreover, Isaiah doesn’t predict the earthly mission of a spiritual messiah as an end-time event, only as one that God’s arm—his servant—points to it when seeking to renew end-time Israel’s allegiance to its God (Isaiah 53:1).
David’s rise to kingship—on the heels of Saul’s demise—provides a type of the rise of God’s end-time servant from an obscure background to prominence to displace a fallen leader. We observe this when God commands the prophet Samuel to anoint a son of Jesse: “When Jesse made seven of his sons pass in front of Samuel, Samuel said to Jesse, ‘Jehovah hasn’t chosen these.’ And Samuel said to Jesse, ‘Are all your children here?’ And he said, ‘There is still the youngest and he is keeping the flock.’ Then Samuel said to Jesse, ‘Send and fetch him, for we won’t sit down until he comes here.’ So he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy and altogether of a comely appearance and goodly to look upon. And Jehovah said, ‘Arise and anoint him for this is the one.’ Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of Jehovah came upon David from that day forward” (1 Samuel 16:10–13).
After David has ruled seven years over Judah and shown himself victorious over Israel’s enemies, the northern tribes ask that he rule also over them: “Then all the tribes of Israel came to David in Hebron and spoke, saying, ‘See, we are your bone and flesh. Also, in times past, when Saul was king over us, you were the one who led out and brought in Israel, and Jehovah said to you, “You will feed my people Israel and you will be a captain over Israel.”’ So all the elders of Israel came to the king in Hebron, and King David made a compact with them in Hebron before Jehovah, and they anointed David king over Israel. David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years. In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty-three years over all of Israel and Judah” (2 Samuel 5:1–5).
Among David’s many accomplishments on behalf of Israel are his slaying the giant Goliath when the Philistines are about to overwhelm Israel (1 Samuel 17:31–51); slaying Israel’s enemies the Philistines with a great slaughter (1 Samuel 19:8; 23:5; 2 Samuel 5:18–25); delivering Israelite cities from the power of the Philistines (1 Samuel 23:5); suffering trials and afflictions on account of Saul, Israel’s first king, who makes him an outlaw and numbers him with criminals—while he remains loyal to Saul at all times (1 Samuel 18:10–11; 19:9–12; 20:34–41; 21:10–13; 22:1–5, 14; 23:6–26; 27:1); sparing Saul’s life on two occasions when Saul seeks to kill him (1 Samuel 24:3–19; 26:7–25); slaying Israel’s enemies the Amalekites and dividing their spoil among the people (1 Samuel 30:8–31); and conquering many nations and peoples of his empire and ruling them with justice and righteousness (2 Samuel 8:1–18; 10:1–19; 12:26–31). These typify many things God’s end-time servant does.
After David proves loyal to Israel’s God at all times, Jehovah makes an unconditional covenant with him after the pattern of ancient Near Eastern emperor–vassal covenants: “I have found David my servant. With my holy oil I have anointed him. With him my hand will be established. My arm also will strengthen him. The enemy will not coerce him, nor the sons of wickedness afflict him. I will beat down his foes before his face and plague those who hate him. But my faithfulness and my mercy will be with him, and in my name will his horn be exalted. I will set his hand in the sea and his right hand in the rivers. He will cry to me, ‘You are my father, my God, the rock of my salvation.’ And I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy will I keep with him evermore and my covenant will stand fast with him. I will make his offspring endure forever and his throne as the days of heaven” (Psalm 89:20–29; compare Jeremiah 33:19–26).
These things typify God’s dealings with his end-time servant. Part III of Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure (Isaiah 9–12; 41–46) depicts the servant undergoing a descent phase of trials and afflictions in the pattern of King David that is the prelude to his ascent phase. Acting as a proxy savior of his people as did David, the servant obtains their divine protection—at which point God exalts him and makes with him an unconditional covenant as he did with David. Jehovah first anoints his servant, an aspect that Isaiah covers under the servant’s Cyrus persona: “Thus says Jehovah to his anointed, to Cyrus, whom I grasp by the right hand” (Isaiah 45:1; emphasis added). An emperor’s grasping of a vassal by the right hand signifies his appointing the vassal to a particular task—in this instance, the overthrow of nations and peoples in order to release Israel’s captives (Isaiah 45:1–4, 13). Upon God’s anointing his servant, the Spirit of Jehovah comes upon him as it did upon David: “My servant whom I sustain, my chosen one in whom I delight, him I have endowed with my Spirit” (Isaiah 42:1).
A person’s anointing, on the one hand, and his Spirit endowment, on the other, however, are two inseparable messianic traits, as was the case with King David (1 Samuel 16:13). The fact that Isaiah separates them under two different messianic personas means that each exemplifies a particular aspect of the servant’s end-time mission, one spiritual, the other physical. Both ideas, for example—(1) of the servant’s “anointing,” and (2) of his endowment by Jehovah’s “Spirit”—come together in a passage Jesus quotes in part in the synagogue at Nazareth (Luke 4:16–21), which passage he applies to himself: “The Spirit of my Lord Jehovah is upon me, for Jehovah has anointed me to announce good tidings to the lowly; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening of the eyes to the bound, to herald the year of Jehovah’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God” (Isaiah 61:1–2).
The part that Jesus omits from his reading—“and the day of vengeance of our God”—points to a key difference between the role of Jehovah/Jesus and that of his servant. As God’s “day of vengeance” is an end-time event, the fuller context of the passage depicts the messianic mission of God’s end-time servant, not that of Jehovah/Jesus (Isaiah 61:3–9). Both individuals, however, fulfill the redemptive parts of the prophecy, Jesus on a spiritual level and the servant on a temporal level. These things show that while God’s servant follows closely the pattern of King David, his end-time role as a temporal messiah and that of Jesus as a spiritual messiah are similar in nature and overlap in many of their messianic attributes.
The end-time context of Isaiah’s prophecy as a whole that Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure establishes nevertheless determines that the servant’s mission is an end-time mission, one that exhibits two distinct phases: (1) a conditional or descent phase, in which the servant answers to Israel’s God for the disloyalties of his people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant in order to obtain their divine protection when enemies threaten; and (2) an unconditional or ascent phase, in which the servant is crowned king as was King David by Israel’s tribes. The first emphasizes the servant’s “servant” phase, in which he fulfills the spiritual role of a proxy savior to God’s people in the pattern of King Hezekiah. The second emphasizes his “son” phase, in which he fulfills the physical role of reconquering the world from the Assyrian alliance in the pattern of King David’s conquest of the ancient Near East and of Cyrus the Persian’s conquest of the Babylonian Empire.
The servant’s proving loyal to Israel’s God under all conditions in both his spiritual role as a proxy savior and his physical role as a world conqueror follows the pattern of ancient Near Eastern emperor–vassal covenants. While a vassal was known as the emperor’s “servant” during the conditional phase of his covenant, after he proved loyal to the emperor under all conditions the emperor adopted him unconditionally as his “son.” This same transition from servanthood to sonship, moreover, applies to all end-time servants of God who fulfill roles as proxy saviors to God’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant. Part III of Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure’s conjoining of its two units of material into a single whole (Isaiah 9–12; 41–46)—one dealing with the servant’s “son” phase (Isaiah 9:6), the other with his “servant” phase (Isaiah 42:1; 44:26)—means that these messianic prophecies are to be perceived as inseparable depictions of the same end-time individual. That accords with emperor–vassal covenants in general, in which the terms “servant” and “son” together, not separately, designate a vassal king who proves loyal to an emperor (2 Kings 16:7).
It is only in the light of these historical patterns and precedents that messianic prophecies can properly be understood. Simply latching on to any messianic prophecy and applying it to Jesus regardless of its end-time context—ignoring what the prophecy’s words actually say, and neglecting its historical background—merely creates stumbling blocks and generates confusion. The idea of an end-time servant of Israel’s God called David, who reigns with him during the earth’s millennial age of peace, takes nothing away from the messianic mission of Jehovah/Jesus, the King of Zion. In fact, many other servants of God reign with him in that glorious age, all of whom follow the same pattern of serving God’s people as kings and priests under the terms of the Davidic Covenant (Isaiah 32:1; 49:23; 60:3–4, 10–11; 61:6–9). They, too, therefore, are “anointed” and endowed with God’s “Spirit” (Isaiah 59:21; 61:3).
Because Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure transforms the entire Book of Isaiah into an end-time scenario, as noted—in which even biographical material typifies or foreshadows things that repeat themselves—Isaiah’s messianic prophecies primarily portray the end-time mission of God’s servant. Those same messianic prophecies, however, may additionally apply on another level in part to Jehovah/Jesus, as in the passage from Isaiah 61:1–2 that Jesus applied to himself. They may even characterize the redemptive missions of others who serve as kings and priests to God’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant. The end-time reestablishment of the Davidic monarchy, however, as typified by the establishment of the Davidic monarchy in the days of King David, applies solely to God’s end-time servant and forms an integral part of “the restoration/restitution of all things” (Matthew 17:11; Mark 9:12; Acts 3:21). That restoration—as characterized by the series of ancient events that repeat themselves at the end of the world—precedes Jehovah/Jesus’ coming to reign on the earth and prepares the way before him.
In the course of acting as a proxy savior to God’s people in order to obtain their divine protection when their lives are imperiled, God’s servant suffers at the hands of vindictive and accusatory enemies from among his own people: “My Lord Jehovah has endowed me with a learned tongue, that I may know how to preach to those grown weary a word to wake them up. Morning by morning he wakens my ear to hear, as at study; my Lord Jehovah has opened my ear, and I rebel not, nor back away: I offered my back to smiters, my cheeks to those who plucked out the beard; I hid not my face from insult and spitting. Because my Lord Jehovah helps me, I shall not be disgraced; I have set my face like flint, knowing I shall not be confounded. He who vindicates me is near me. Who has a dispute with me? Let us face one another! Who will bring charges against me? Let him confront me with them! See, my Lord Jehovah sustains me. Who then will incriminate me? Surely all such shall wear out like a garment; the moth will consume them. Who among you fears Jehovah and heeds the voice of his servant, who, though he walk in the dark and have no light, trusts in the name of Jehovah and relies on his God? But you are lighters of fires, all of you, who illuminate with mere sparks. Walk then by the light of your fires and by the sparks you have kindled. This shall you have from my hand: you shall lie down in agony” (Isaiah 50:4–11).
Like King Hezekiah (Isaiah 38:1–20), God’s servant “pours out his soul unto death” when answering for the disloyalties of God’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant, but when God empowers him he “divides the spoil with the mighty” as did King David: “He shall see the toil of his soul and be satisfied; because of his knowledge, and by bearing their iniquities, shall my servant, the righteous one, vindicate many. I will assign him an inheritance among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty, because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with criminals—he bore the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:11–12). In each case, the proxy savior’s descent phase leads to his ascent phase: “My servant, being astute, shall be highly exalted; he shall become exceedingly eminent. His appearance was marred beyond human likeness, his semblance unlike that of men. Yet shall he yet astound many nations, kings shutting their mouths at him—what was not told them, they shall see; what they had not heard, they shall consider” (Isaiah 52:13–15).
After the servant is “despised as a person” and “abhorred by his people” (Isaiah 49:7)—yet proves faithful to God under all conditions in ministering to God’s people—Jehovah exalts and empowers him: “For now Jehovah has said—he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to restore Jacob to him, Israel having been gathered to him; for I won honor in the eyes of Jehovah when my God became my strength—he said: ‘It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore those preserved of Israel. I will also appoint you to be a light to the nations, that my salvation may be to the end of the earth’” (Isaiah 49:5–6);
He becomes a power of salvation to God’s exiled peoples: “Give ear and come unto me; pay heed, that your souls may live! And I will make with you an everlasting covenant: [my] loving fidelity toward David. See, I have appointed him as a witness to the nations, a prince and lawgiver of the peoples. You will summon a nation that you did not know; a nation that did not know you will hasten to you—because of Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel, who gloriously endows you” (Isaiah 55:3–5); “In that day the sprig of Jesse, who stands for an ensign to the peoples, shall be sought by the nations, and his rest shall be glorious” (Isaiah 11:10).
Upon the servant’s vanquishing the enemies of God’s people and dividing their spoil as did King David, he is crowned king by Israel’s tribes as was David: “The people walking in darkness have seen a bright light; on the inhabitants of the land of the shadow of death has the light dawned. You have enlarged the nation and increased its joy; they rejoice at your presence as men rejoice at harvest time, or as men are joyous when they divide spoil. For you have smashed the yoke that burdened them, the staff of submission, the rod of those who subjected them, as in the day of Midian. And all boots used in battle and tunics rolled in blood have become fuel for bonfires. For to us a child is born, a son appointed, who will shoulder the burden of government. He will be called Wonderful Counsellor, One Mighty in Valor, a Father for Ever, a Prince of Peace—that sovereignty may be extended and peace have no end; that, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, [his rule]may be established and upheld by justice and righteousness from this time forth and forever” (Isaiah 9:2–7; emphasis added).
Although historically the above passage depicts the enthronement of King Hezekiah, it too typifies an end-time event—the enthronement of God’s servant upon his vanquishing the enemies of God’s people. As Jehovah’s “son”—denoting an emperor’s unconditional covenant with a vassal who proves loyal under all conditions—God’s servant reestablishes the Davidic monarchy. (Handel’s Messiah, based on a mistranslation in the King James Version of verse 6, as well as on a misreading of the context of the passage—in which God’s servant’s subdues the Assyrian power and gathers Israel’s tribes—cannot be construed as a literal fulfillment of this messianic prophecy. No corroborating scriptural source, therefore, applies it to Jesus of Nazareth.)
The reestablishment of the Davidic monarchy appears a second time as an event connected to the servant’s vanquishing his people’s enemies in the pattern of King David: “When oppressors are no more and violence has ceased, when tyrants are destroyed from the earth, then, in loving kindness, shall a throne be set up in the abode of David, and in faithfulness a judge sit on it who will maintain justice and expedite righteousness” (Isaiah 16:4–5).
That judge—God’s servant—prepares end-time Israel to meet Jehovah/Jesus at his coming by clearing away his people’s stumbling blocks: “A voice calls out, ‘In the desert prepare the way for Jehovah; in the wilderness pave a straight highway for our God: every ravine must be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the uneven ground must become level and rough terrain a plain.’ For the glory of Jehovah shall be revealed and all flesh see it at once” (Isaiah 40:3–5); “Pass on, go through gates; prepare the way for the people! Excavate, pave a highway cleared of stones; raise the ensign to the nations! Jehovah has made proclamation to the end of the earth: ‘Tell the Daughter of Zion, “See, your Salvation comes, his reward with him, his work preceding him.’” They shall be called the holy people, the redeemed of Jehovah; and you shall be known as in demand, a city never deserted” (Isaiah 62:10–12).
Finally, common messianic attributes of Jehovah/Jesus and his servant in messianic prophecies should be discerned in how they apply to each savior figure individually. Separated by time and location, the arena in which each fulfills his mission is personal to him and distinguishes one from the other. As in the following messianic passage, for example, linking ideas to other parts of Isaiah’s prophecy—such as an endowment of God’s Spirit (Isaiah 42:1; 48:16; 61:1; 63:11), the attributes of counsel, valor, and righteousness (Isaiah 9:6–7; 28:29; 46:11–13; 49:26), and key words that act as codenames such as righteousness, mouth, and lips (Isaiah 41:2; 46:11–13; 49:2; 57:18–19)—designate mostly God’s servant in an end-time context as the subject of the passage but in a generic sense may apply to Jehovah himself, whom his servant and fellowservants seek to emulate:
“A shoot will spring up from the stock of Jesse and a branch from its graft bear fruit. The Spirit of Jehovah will rest upon him—the spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the spirit of counsel and of valor, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah. His intuition will be [guided] by the fear of Jehovah; he will not judge by what his eyes see, nor establish proof by what his ears hear. He will judge the poor with righteousness, and with equity arbitrate for the lowly in the land; he will smite the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips slay the wicked. Righteousness will be as a band about his waist, faithfulness a girdle round his loins” (Isaiah 11:1–5).
Jehovah’s coming to the earth to reign as King of Zion indeed constitutes the culminating fulfillment of the servant’s end-time reestablishment of the Davidic monarchy and completes Jehovah’s ascent phase. As with all who serve as proxy saviors under the terms of the Davidic Covenant, that ascent phase must be seen as inseparable from his descent phase in which he answers for his people’s disloyalties to the Most High God. His descent below all during his earthly ministry—when paying the price of his people’s spiritual salvation (Isaiah 53:1–10)—accords with his glorious ascent above all as King of Zion (Isaiah 52:7).
Based on the interplay between God’s justice and mercy—in which justice must be served before mercy can operate—Jehovah’s fulfilling his proxy role on behalf of his people establishes the theological premise that makes possible humanity’s long-awaited reversal of covenant curses, including death, and constitutes the singular event Jehovah alone can accomplish from which all salvation derives (Isaiah 25:7–8; 26:19; 44:22; 52:1–3; 53:5; 65:19–25). The redemptive mission Jehovah thus performs, though it is central to God’s entire plan of humanity’s salvation, nonetheless receives much less prominence in Isaiah’s and other messianic prophecies than that of his end-time servant. That testifies to the divine modesty of Israel’s King, who, besides passing through a multitude of other deprecating ordeals, is willing to be “despised and disdained by men, a man of grief, accustomed to suffering” (Isaiah 53:3) in the course of delivering his people from evil: “Truly you are a God who dissembles himself, O Savior, God of Israel” (Isaiah 45:15).
Sadly, as entire messianic constructs built up in people’s minds on faulty interpretive foundations inherited from the Dark Ages of apostasy mislead the masses even to this day, it seems apparent that God’s end-time servant and those servants of God who act of proxy saviors under the terms of the Davidic Covenant in restoring his end-time people and preparing them to meet Jehovah/Jesus at his coming must experience their descent phases of trials and afflictions at the hands of those very same misled masses who refuse to invest their time in analyzing Isaiah’s and other messianic prophecies to determine for themselves what they actually say, but who instead are content to parrot back what they are led to believe they say. Such is the paradox of God’s people’s interpersonal relationships: that those who are most “vigilant for his word” (Isaiah 66:5)—as evidenced by their searching the scriptures to see “whether those things are so” (Acts 17:11)—should suffer most at the hands of ecclesiastical brethren who, to their own condemnation, hold fast to popular but scripturally unsupported “precepts of men” (Isaiah 29:13; 51:7; 61:7; 65:13–15; 66:5).
by Avraham Gileadi Ph.D.
The third part of Isaiah's Seven-Part Structure, which parallels Isaiah 9,10,11,12 with 41,42,43,44,45,46, depicts the mission of God’s End-Time “servant” and “son” who prepares God’s people for Jehovah’s coming to the earth. The context of each group of chapters is the same: Israel’s End-Time restoration. This consists of God’s people’s physical release from bondage, new exodus, new wandering in the wilderness, return from exile, and reconquest of the Land. These and other literary interconnections between the two groups of chapters show that Jehovah’s “servant” who appears in Isaiah 41,42,43,44,45,46 is the same person as the Davidic “son” who appears in Isaiah 9,10,11,12.
While Isaiah 41,42,43,44,45,46 highlights the conditional phase of the servant’s mission to restore God’s people, Isaiah 9,10,11,12 highlights its unconditional phase—that is, a phase subsequent to the servant’s restoration of God’s people. Spiritual and political enemies that he has to deal with include idolaters and the king of Assyria. The restorative events of Israel’s release from bondage, new exodus, new wandering in the wilderness, return from exile, and reconquest of the Land conclude with God’s presence with people in Zion (Isaiah 12:1–6; 46:13). The role of God’s servant and son thus resembles that of Moses, who sought to prepare God’s people to meet God.
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24. The Davidic Monarchy
The institution of kings in Israel comes in response to repeated threats to the nation from the surrounding peoples during the reign of Israel’s judges. When Israel regresses in it allegiance to its God, it begins to lose his divine protection. Exacerbating the situation is that no unifying societal structure exists that governs people’s actions: “In those days there was no king in Israel, and every man did what was right in his own eyes” (Judges 17:6). On various occasions, judges such as Gideon are able to rally some of the Israel’s tribes to meet these enemy threats. But when the Philistines and other nations imperil Israel’s very existence, Israel’s elders come to the prophet Samuel and demand a king, one who can command all of Israel’s tribes to defend their land: “Make us a king to judge us like all the nations” (1 Samuel 8:5).
Under the terms of the Sinai Covenant, Israel as a whole has been required to keep God’s law in order for the people to receive his divine protection. Under the terms of the Davidic Covenant, on the other hand—which God institutes in response to Israel’s demands for a king—he requires only that the king to keeps his law while the people are required to keep the king’s law. Both covenants follow the pattern of ancient Near Eastern emperor–vassal covenants, in which Israel’s God plays the role of emperor and the people or their king play the role of vassal. For the people of Israel, the Davidic Covenant thus constitutes a lesser law—they now merely need to obey their king to obtain God’s protection. For the king, however, the Davidic Covenant is a higher law as he is now answerable for his people’s disloyalties to Israel’s God in order for God to extend his protection.
As all subsequent messianic prophecies and their fulfillment are based on these covenant patterns, it is important to gain a clear understanding of them or the idea of a messiah can lead to confusion. Why do Jews and Christians, for example retain such divergent messianic hopes—Jews anticipating a messiah who obtains his people’s divine protection or temporal salvation, and Christian adhering solely to the idea of a spiritual messiah, one who obtains his people salvation from sin? In Isaiah’s repeat scenario of ancient events, God’s raising up a Davidic king—his end-time servant—follows the type of his raising up King David in response to his people’s need for divine protection. That occurs at a time when his people’s enemies are imperiling their very existence, just as their enemies did anciently.
God’s end-time servant, in other words, fulfills Jewish expectations of a temporal messiah, one who answers for his people’s disloyalties to Israel’s God in the pattern of ancient Near Eastern emperor–vassal covenants. The idea of a Christian messiah, on the other hand—of a spiritual savior as vested in Jesus of Nazareth—has no precedent in the past that repeats itself in the end-time. Jehovah/Jesus doesn’t come to do physical battle in wars with Israel’s enemies in the pattern of King David—God’s servant does. Nor is the role of redeeming God’s people from their sins an end-time role. Rather, in an end-time context, Jehovah comes on the earth to reign as King of Zion after his servant has prepared a people to meet their God. In the interim, Jehovah gives his servant the victory over his enemies as he did King David. As a forerunner of Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth, the servant gathers and reunites Israel’s tribes, builds the temple in Jerusalem to which Jehovah comes, and establishes the political kingdom of God on the earth over which Jehovah reigns. Each messianic individual, in other words, plays a separate but complementary role.
King David and his righteous heirs, notably King Hezekiah, nevertheless act as types on a temporal level of Jehovah/Jesus’ proxy role on behalf of his people in obtaining their spiritual salvation. When projecting the idea of a spiritual messiah, Isaiah creates a composite of types: (1) of a Davidic king who is prosecuted on account of his people’s disloyalties to God in the pattern of emperor–vassal covenants (Isaiah 53:4–6, 8); and (2) of a sacrificial lamb that acts as “an offering for guilt” (‘asam) under the Law of Moses (Isaiah 53:7, 10). That is different from what most messianic prophecies depict, which deal with the redemptive mission of a latter-day David. As noted, moreover, Isaiah doesn’t predict the earthly mission of a spiritual messiah as an end-time event, only as one that God’s arm—his servant—points to it when seeking to renew end-time Israel’s allegiance to its God (Isaiah 53:1).
David’s rise to kingship—on the heels of Saul’s demise—provides a type of the rise of God’s end-time servant from an obscure background to prominence to displace a fallen leader. We observe this when God commands the prophet Samuel to anoint a son of Jesse: “When Jesse made seven of his sons pass in front of Samuel, Samuel said to Jesse, ‘Jehovah hasn’t chosen these.’ And Samuel said to Jesse, ‘Are all your children here?’ And he said, ‘There is still the youngest and he is keeping the flock.’ Then Samuel said to Jesse, ‘Send and fetch him, for we won’t sit down until he comes here.’ So he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy and altogether of a comely appearance and goodly to look upon. And Jehovah said, ‘Arise and anoint him for this is the one.’ Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of Jehovah came upon David from that day forward” (1 Samuel 16:10–13).
After David has ruled seven years over Judah and shown himself victorious over Israel’s enemies, the northern tribes ask that he rule also over them: “Then all the tribes of Israel came to David in Hebron and spoke, saying, ‘See, we are your bone and flesh. Also, in times past, when Saul was king over us, you were the one who led out and brought in Israel, and Jehovah said to you, “You will feed my people Israel and you will be a captain over Israel.”’ So all the elders of Israel came to the king in Hebron, and King David made a compact with them in Hebron before Jehovah, and they anointed David king over Israel. David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years. In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty-three years over all of Israel and Judah” (2 Samuel 5:1–5).
Among David’s many accomplishments on behalf of Israel are his slaying the giant Goliath when the Philistines are about to overwhelm Israel (1 Samuel 17:31–51); slaying Israel’s enemies the Philistines with a great slaughter (1 Samuel 19:8; 23:5; 2 Samuel 5:18–25); delivering Israelite cities from the power of the Philistines (1 Samuel 23:5); suffering trials and afflictions on account of Saul, Israel’s first king, who makes him an outlaw and numbers him with criminals—while he remains loyal to Saul at all times (1 Samuel 18:10–11; 19:9–12; 20:34–41; 21:10–13; 22:1–5, 14; 23:6–26; 27:1); sparing Saul’s life on two occasions when Saul seeks to kill him (1 Samuel 24:3–19; 26:7–25); slaying Israel’s enemies the Amalekites and dividing their spoil among the people (1 Samuel 30:8–31); and conquering many nations and peoples of his empire and ruling them with justice and righteousness (2 Samuel 8:1–18; 10:1–19; 12:26–31). These typify many things God’s end-time servant does.
After David proves loyal to Israel’s God at all times, Jehovah makes an unconditional covenant with him after the pattern of ancient Near Eastern emperor–vassal covenants: “I have found David my servant. With my holy oil I have anointed him. With him my hand will be established. My arm also will strengthen him. The enemy will not coerce him, nor the sons of wickedness afflict him. I will beat down his foes before his face and plague those who hate him. But my faithfulness and my mercy will be with him, and in my name will his horn be exalted. I will set his hand in the sea and his right hand in the rivers. He will cry to me, ‘You are my father, my God, the rock of my salvation.’ And I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy will I keep with him evermore and my covenant will stand fast with him. I will make his offspring endure forever and his throne as the days of heaven” (Psalm 89:20–29; compare Jeremiah 33:19–26).
These things typify God’s dealings with his end-time servant. Part III of Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure (Isaiah 9–12; 41–46) depicts the servant undergoing a descent phase of trials and afflictions in the pattern of King David that is the prelude to his ascent phase. Acting as a proxy savior of his people as did David, the servant obtains their divine protection—at which point God exalts him and makes with him an unconditional covenant as he did with David. Jehovah first anoints his servant, an aspect that Isaiah covers under the servant’s Cyrus persona: “Thus says Jehovah to his anointed, to Cyrus, whom I grasp by the right hand” (Isaiah 45:1; emphasis added). An emperor’s grasping of a vassal by the right hand signifies his appointing the vassal to a particular task—in this instance, the overthrow of nations and peoples in order to release Israel’s captives (Isaiah 45:1–4, 13). Upon God’s anointing his servant, the Spirit of Jehovah comes upon him as it did upon David: “My servant whom I sustain, my chosen one in whom I delight, him I have endowed with my Spirit” (Isaiah 42:1).
A person’s anointing, on the one hand, and his Spirit endowment, on the other, however, are two inseparable messianic traits, as was the case with King David (1 Samuel 16:13). The fact that Isaiah separates them under two different messianic personas means that each exemplifies a particular aspect of the servant’s end-time mission, one spiritual, the other physical. Both ideas, for example—(1) of the servant’s “anointing,” and (2) of his endowment by Jehovah’s “Spirit”—come together in a passage Jesus quotes in part in the synagogue at Nazareth (Luke 4:16–21), which passage he applies to himself: “The Spirit of my Lord Jehovah is upon me, for Jehovah has anointed me to announce good tidings to the lowly; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening of the eyes to the bound, to herald the year of Jehovah’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God” (Isaiah 61:1–2).
The part that Jesus omits from his reading—“and the day of vengeance of our God”—points to a key difference between the role of Jehovah/Jesus and that of his servant. As God’s “day of vengeance” is an end-time event, the fuller context of the passage depicts the messianic mission of God’s end-time servant, not that of Jehovah/Jesus (Isaiah 61:3–9). Both individuals, however, fulfill the redemptive parts of the prophecy, Jesus on a spiritual level and the servant on a temporal level. These things show that while God’s servant follows closely the pattern of King David, his end-time role as a temporal messiah and that of Jesus as a spiritual messiah are similar in nature and overlap in many of their messianic attributes.
The end-time context of Isaiah’s prophecy as a whole that Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure establishes nevertheless determines that the servant’s mission is an end-time mission, one that exhibits two distinct phases: (1) a conditional or descent phase, in which the servant answers to Israel’s God for the disloyalties of his people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant in order to obtain their divine protection when enemies threaten; and (2) an unconditional or ascent phase, in which the servant is crowned king as was King David by Israel’s tribes. The first emphasizes the servant’s “servant” phase, in which he fulfills the spiritual role of a proxy savior to God’s people in the pattern of King Hezekiah. The second emphasizes his “son” phase, in which he fulfills the physical role of reconquering the world from the Assyrian alliance in the pattern of King David’s conquest of the ancient Near East and of Cyrus the Persian’s conquest of the Babylonian Empire.
The servant’s proving loyal to Israel’s God under all conditions in both his spiritual role as a proxy savior and his physical role as a world conqueror follows the pattern of ancient Near Eastern emperor–vassal covenants. While a vassal was known as the emperor’s “servant” during the conditional phase of his covenant, after he proved loyal to the emperor under all conditions the emperor adopted him unconditionally as his “son.” This same transition from servanthood to sonship, moreover, applies to all end-time servants of God who fulfill roles as proxy saviors to God’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant. Part III of Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure’s conjoining of its two units of material into a single whole (Isaiah 9–12; 41–46)—one dealing with the servant’s “son” phase (Isaiah 9:6), the other with his “servant” phase (Isaiah 42:1; 44:26)—means that these messianic prophecies are to be perceived as inseparable depictions of the same end-time individual. That accords with emperor–vassal covenants in general, in which the terms “servant” and “son” together, not separately, designate a vassal king who proves loyal to an emperor (2 Kings 16:7).
It is only in the light of these historical patterns and precedents that messianic prophecies can properly be understood. Simply latching on to any messianic prophecy and applying it to Jesus regardless of its end-time context—ignoring what the prophecy’s words actually say, and neglecting its historical background—merely creates stumbling blocks and generates confusion. The idea of an end-time servant of Israel’s God called David, who reigns with him during the earth’s millennial age of peace, takes nothing away from the messianic mission of Jehovah/Jesus, the King of Zion. In fact, many other servants of God reign with him in that glorious age, all of whom follow the same pattern of serving God’s people as kings and priests under the terms of the Davidic Covenant (Isaiah 32:1; 49:23; 60:3–4, 10–11; 61:6–9). They, too, therefore, are “anointed” and endowed with God’s “Spirit” (Isaiah 59:21; 61:3).
Because Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure transforms the entire Book of Isaiah into an end-time scenario, as noted—in which even biographical material typifies or foreshadows things that repeat themselves—Isaiah’s messianic prophecies primarily portray the end-time mission of God’s servant. Those same messianic prophecies, however, may additionally apply on another level in part to Jehovah/Jesus, as in the passage from Isaiah 61:1–2 that Jesus applied to himself. They may even characterize the redemptive missions of others who serve as kings and priests to God’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant. The end-time reestablishment of the Davidic monarchy, however, as typified by the establishment of the Davidic monarchy in the days of King David, applies solely to God’s end-time servant and forms an integral part of “the restoration/restitution of all things” (Matthew 17:11; Mark 9:12; Acts 3:21). That restoration—as characterized by the series of ancient events that repeat themselves at the end of the world—precedes Jehovah/Jesus’ coming to reign on the earth and prepares the way before him.
In the course of acting as a proxy savior to God’s people in order to obtain their divine protection when their lives are imperiled, God’s servant suffers at the hands of vindictive and accusatory enemies from among his own people: “My Lord Jehovah has endowed me with a learned tongue, that I may know how to preach to those grown weary a word to wake them up. Morning by morning he wakens my ear to hear, as at study; my Lord Jehovah has opened my ear, and I rebel not, nor back away: I offered my back to smiters, my cheeks to those who plucked out the beard; I hid not my face from insult and spitting. Because my Lord Jehovah helps me, I shall not be disgraced; I have set my face like flint, knowing I shall not be confounded. He who vindicates me is near me. Who has a dispute with me? Let us face one another! Who will bring charges against me? Let him confront me with them! See, my Lord Jehovah sustains me. Who then will incriminate me? Surely all such shall wear out like a garment; the moth will consume them. Who among you fears Jehovah and heeds the voice of his servant, who, though he walk in the dark and have no light, trusts in the name of Jehovah and relies on his God? But you are lighters of fires, all of you, who illuminate with mere sparks. Walk then by the light of your fires and by the sparks you have kindled. This shall you have from my hand: you shall lie down in agony” (Isaiah 50:4–11).
Like King Hezekiah (Isaiah 38:1–20), God’s servant “pours out his soul unto death” when answering for the disloyalties of God’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant, but when God empowers him he “divides the spoil with the mighty” as did King David: “He shall see the toil of his soul and be satisfied; because of his knowledge, and by bearing their iniquities, shall my servant, the righteous one, vindicate many. I will assign him an inheritance among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty, because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with criminals—he bore the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:11–12). In each case, the proxy savior’s descent phase leads to his ascent phase: “My servant, being astute, shall be highly exalted; he shall become exceedingly eminent. His appearance was marred beyond human likeness, his semblance unlike that of men. Yet shall he yet astound many nations, kings shutting their mouths at him—what was not told them, they shall see; what they had not heard, they shall consider” (Isaiah 52:13–15).
After the servant is “despised as a person” and “abhorred by his people” (Isaiah 49:7)—yet proves faithful to God under all conditions in ministering to God’s people—Jehovah exalts and empowers him: “For now Jehovah has said—he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to restore Jacob to him, Israel having been gathered to him; for I won honor in the eyes of Jehovah when my God became my strength—he said: ‘It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore those preserved of Israel. I will also appoint you to be a light to the nations, that my salvation may be to the end of the earth’” (Isaiah 49:5–6);
He becomes a power of salvation to God’s exiled peoples: “Give ear and come unto me; pay heed, that your souls may live! And I will make with you an everlasting covenant: [my] loving fidelity toward David. See, I have appointed him as a witness to the nations, a prince and lawgiver of the peoples. You will summon a nation that you did not know; a nation that did not know you will hasten to you—because of Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel, who gloriously endows you” (Isaiah 55:3–5); “In that day the sprig of Jesse, who stands for an ensign to the peoples, shall be sought by the nations, and his rest shall be glorious” (Isaiah 11:10).
Upon the servant’s vanquishing the enemies of God’s people and dividing their spoil as did King David, he is crowned king by Israel’s tribes as was David: “The people walking in darkness have seen a bright light; on the inhabitants of the land of the shadow of death has the light dawned. You have enlarged the nation and increased its joy; they rejoice at your presence as men rejoice at harvest time, or as men are joyous when they divide spoil. For you have smashed the yoke that burdened them, the staff of submission, the rod of those who subjected them, as in the day of Midian. And all boots used in battle and tunics rolled in blood have become fuel for bonfires. For to us a child is born, a son appointed, who will shoulder the burden of government. He will be called Wonderful Counsellor, One Mighty in Valor, a Father for Ever, a Prince of Peace—that sovereignty may be extended and peace have no end; that, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, [his rule]may be established and upheld by justice and righteousness from this time forth and forever” (Isaiah 9:2–7; emphasis added).
Although historically the above passage depicts the enthronement of King Hezekiah, it too typifies an end-time event—the enthronement of God’s servant upon his vanquishing the enemies of God’s people. As Jehovah’s “son”—denoting an emperor’s unconditional covenant with a vassal who proves loyal under all conditions—God’s servant reestablishes the Davidic monarchy. (Handel’s Messiah, based on a mistranslation in the King James Version of verse 6, as well as on a misreading of the context of the passage—in which God’s servant’s subdues the Assyrian power and gathers Israel’s tribes—cannot be construed as a literal fulfillment of this messianic prophecy. No corroborating scriptural source, therefore, applies it to Jesus of Nazareth.)
The reestablishment of the Davidic monarchy appears a second time as an event connected to the servant’s vanquishing his people’s enemies in the pattern of King David: “When oppressors are no more and violence has ceased, when tyrants are destroyed from the earth, then, in loving kindness, shall a throne be set up in the abode of David, and in faithfulness a judge sit on it who will maintain justice and expedite righteousness” (Isaiah 16:4–5).
That judge—God’s servant—prepares end-time Israel to meet Jehovah/Jesus at his coming by clearing away his people’s stumbling blocks: “A voice calls out, ‘In the desert prepare the way for Jehovah; in the wilderness pave a straight highway for our God: every ravine must be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the uneven ground must become level and rough terrain a plain.’ For the glory of Jehovah shall be revealed and all flesh see it at once” (Isaiah 40:3–5); “Pass on, go through gates; prepare the way for the people! Excavate, pave a highway cleared of stones; raise the ensign to the nations! Jehovah has made proclamation to the end of the earth: ‘Tell the Daughter of Zion, “See, your Salvation comes, his reward with him, his work preceding him.’” They shall be called the holy people, the redeemed of Jehovah; and you shall be known as in demand, a city never deserted” (Isaiah 62:10–12).
Finally, common messianic attributes of Jehovah/Jesus and his servant in messianic prophecies should be discerned in how they apply to each savior figure individually. Separated by time and location, the arena in which each fulfills his mission is personal to him and distinguishes one from the other. As in the following messianic passage, for example, linking ideas to other parts of Isaiah’s prophecy—such as an endowment of God’s Spirit (Isaiah 42:1; 48:16; 61:1; 63:11), the attributes of counsel, valor, and righteousness (Isaiah 9:6–7; 28:29; 46:11–13; 49:26), and key words that act as codenames such as righteousness, mouth, and lips (Isaiah 41:2; 46:11–13; 49:2; 57:18–19)—designate mostly God’s servant in an end-time context as the subject of the passage but in a generic sense may apply to Jehovah himself, whom his servant and fellowservants seek to emulate:
“A shoot will spring up from the stock of Jesse and a branch from its graft bear fruit. The Spirit of Jehovah will rest upon him—the spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the spirit of counsel and of valor, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah. His intuition will be [guided] by the fear of Jehovah; he will not judge by what his eyes see, nor establish proof by what his ears hear. He will judge the poor with righteousness, and with equity arbitrate for the lowly in the land; he will smite the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips slay the wicked. Righteousness will be as a band about his waist, faithfulness a girdle round his loins” (Isaiah 11:1–5).
Jehovah’s coming to the earth to reign as King of Zion indeed constitutes the culminating fulfillment of the servant’s end-time reestablishment of the Davidic monarchy and completes Jehovah’s ascent phase. As with all who serve as proxy saviors under the terms of the Davidic Covenant, that ascent phase must be seen as inseparable from his descent phase in which he answers for his people’s disloyalties to the Most High God. His descent below all during his earthly ministry—when paying the price of his people’s spiritual salvation (Isaiah 53:1–10)—accords with his glorious ascent above all as King of Zion (Isaiah 52:7).
Based on the interplay between God’s justice and mercy—in which justice must be served before mercy can operate—Jehovah’s fulfilling his proxy role on behalf of his people establishes the theological premise that makes possible humanity’s long-awaited reversal of covenant curses, including death, and constitutes the singular event Jehovah alone can accomplish from which all salvation derives (Isaiah 25:7–8; 26:19; 44:22; 52:1–3; 53:5; 65:19–25). The redemptive mission Jehovah thus performs, though it is central to God’s entire plan of humanity’s salvation, nonetheless receives much less prominence in Isaiah’s and other messianic prophecies than that of his end-time servant. That testifies to the divine modesty of Israel’s King, who, besides passing through a multitude of other deprecating ordeals, is willing to be “despised and disdained by men, a man of grief, accustomed to suffering” (Isaiah 53:3) in the course of delivering his people from evil: “Truly you are a God who dissembles himself, O Savior, God of Israel” (Isaiah 45:15).
Sadly, as entire messianic constructs built up in people’s minds on faulty interpretive foundations inherited from the Dark Ages of apostasy mislead the masses even to this day, it seems apparent that God’s end-time servant and those servants of God who act of proxy saviors under the terms of the Davidic Covenant in restoring his end-time people and preparing them to meet Jehovah/Jesus at his coming must experience their descent phases of trials and afflictions at the hands of those very same misled masses who refuse to invest their time in analyzing Isaiah’s and other messianic prophecies to determine for themselves what they actually say, but who instead are content to parrot back what they are led to believe they say. Such is the paradox of God’s people’s interpersonal relationships: that those who are most “vigilant for his word” (Isaiah 66:5)—as evidenced by their searching the scriptures to see “whether those things are so” (Acts 17:11)—should suffer most at the hands of ecclesiastical brethren who, to their own condemnation, hold fast to popular but scripturally unsupported “precepts of men” (Isaiah 29:13; 51:7; 61:7; 65:13–15; 66:5).
Last edited by I AM on March 31st, 2018, 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I AM
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2456
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
John the Beloved, the Davidic King, being
The One Mighty and Strong who is the "man child" spoken of in Revelation 12
which refers to the sign in the heavens that heralded the beginning of his mission.
Revelation 12 sign -
The stars were positioned in Virgo fulfilling this
on September 23, 2017 - The beginning of The Great tribulation.
Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
"And now cometh the day of their calamity, even the days of sorrow,
like a woman that is taken in travail; and their sorrow shall be great
unless they speedily repent, yea, very speedily." (D&C 136:35)
Revelation 12
Verses 1 - the stars were in Virgo fulfilling this
on September 23, 2017
verse 2 - The beginning of The Great tribulation starts.
( "For when they shall say, Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.")
verse 5 - the "man child". is the Davidic prophet, the one mighty and strong
whom the dragon wants to destroy as soon as he appears. (verse 3-4)
The red dragon is symbolic of kingdoms of the world and Satan.
It also corresponds to a constellation, Hydrus.
verse 6 - "the woman" is the righteous remnant,
"where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." ( or 3 and a half years), equal to the time the beast has power and the duration of the tribulation.
This chapter is all about two end-times people:
The servant of God (also known as the one mighty and strong in other scriptures) and the servant of Satan (also known as the King of Assyria in Isaiah). The chapter weaves together imagery from a war in heaven that was fought before the world was created, signs in the heavens, and other imagery to explain how the servant of God and the servant of Satan will come on the scene and what their principle missions and dispositions will be.
As in other places, this Christ-symbology is used to describe the one mighty and strong, who is a type of Christ and has a holy mission more similar to Jesus' than anyone who has ever lived. This date provides a sign that marks the onset of the mission of the one mighty and strong.
Likewise, Satan symbology is used to describe the servant of the devil,
who is a type of Satan himself.
The man child is the one mighty and strong.
Some are thrown off by the phrase "rule all nations with a rod of iron." Yet, we know that God will appoint a man to sit on the throne of David, that this will be after God has thrown down all other nations, and that he will govern with the word of God ("rod of iron" in other places).
We are told in verse five that when Virgo brings forth Jupiter, the one mighty and strong will be caught up to God and his throne. It is important to distinguish the symbolism from the literal. Servants of God are caught up to his throne--literally carried to the throne of God--when they begin their ministry.
This happened, for example, with Isaiah and Ezekiel. When this happens, it will mark the beginning of Zion, which is in and around this servant.
The kingdom of God--this person and his following--will go into the wilderness as directed by God, to be protected from the desolation that comes after this point for three and a half years.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
This passage parallels the description of the coming forth of the one mighty and strong.
Here we read of the coming forth of the servant of Satan. The language used to describe this is a recounting of the war in heaven that occurred before the earth was inhabited. Just as the one mighty and strong represents Christ coming to the earth again (though he is not Christ), the servant of Satan represents Satan himself. Just as the one mighty and strong will accomplish the work of Jesus on the earth, the servant of Satan will accomplish the work of the devil.
The start of the mission of each of these people will dramatically affect
life on earth.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
The kingdom of the devil will rise up and persecute the kingdom of God in an unprecedented manner as soon as the mission of these two begin. The calling of the one mighty and strong will initiate a physical gathering to places of safety in the wilderness. Meanwhile, Christians everywhere will be persecuted.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
This flood is not symbolic. The places of safety will be in the Rocky Mountains in the USA.
The flood could be caused by man-made nuclear tsunamis on the west coast of the US. Far fetched?
The Russians have designed and leaked equipment and plans to do just that.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Again, this is not symbolic. There will be an earthquake that will cause the waters to subside somewhat.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
There will be a literal war between those who believe in God
and those who do not.
The One Mighty and Strong who is the "man child" spoken of in Revelation 12
which refers to the sign in the heavens that heralded the beginning of his mission.
Revelation 12 sign -
The stars were positioned in Virgo fulfilling this
on September 23, 2017 - The beginning of The Great tribulation.
Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
"And now cometh the day of their calamity, even the days of sorrow,
like a woman that is taken in travail; and their sorrow shall be great
unless they speedily repent, yea, very speedily." (D&C 136:35)
Revelation 12
Verses 1 - the stars were in Virgo fulfilling this
on September 23, 2017
verse 2 - The beginning of The Great tribulation starts.
( "For when they shall say, Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.")
verse 5 - the "man child". is the Davidic prophet, the one mighty and strong
whom the dragon wants to destroy as soon as he appears. (verse 3-4)
The red dragon is symbolic of kingdoms of the world and Satan.
It also corresponds to a constellation, Hydrus.
verse 6 - "the woman" is the righteous remnant,
"where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." ( or 3 and a half years), equal to the time the beast has power and the duration of the tribulation.
This chapter is all about two end-times people:
The servant of God (also known as the one mighty and strong in other scriptures) and the servant of Satan (also known as the King of Assyria in Isaiah). The chapter weaves together imagery from a war in heaven that was fought before the world was created, signs in the heavens, and other imagery to explain how the servant of God and the servant of Satan will come on the scene and what their principle missions and dispositions will be.
As in other places, this Christ-symbology is used to describe the one mighty and strong, who is a type of Christ and has a holy mission more similar to Jesus' than anyone who has ever lived. This date provides a sign that marks the onset of the mission of the one mighty and strong.
Likewise, Satan symbology is used to describe the servant of the devil,
who is a type of Satan himself.
The man child is the one mighty and strong.
Some are thrown off by the phrase "rule all nations with a rod of iron." Yet, we know that God will appoint a man to sit on the throne of David, that this will be after God has thrown down all other nations, and that he will govern with the word of God ("rod of iron" in other places).
We are told in verse five that when Virgo brings forth Jupiter, the one mighty and strong will be caught up to God and his throne. It is important to distinguish the symbolism from the literal. Servants of God are caught up to his throne--literally carried to the throne of God--when they begin their ministry.
This happened, for example, with Isaiah and Ezekiel. When this happens, it will mark the beginning of Zion, which is in and around this servant.
The kingdom of God--this person and his following--will go into the wilderness as directed by God, to be protected from the desolation that comes after this point for three and a half years.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
This passage parallels the description of the coming forth of the one mighty and strong.
Here we read of the coming forth of the servant of Satan. The language used to describe this is a recounting of the war in heaven that occurred before the earth was inhabited. Just as the one mighty and strong represents Christ coming to the earth again (though he is not Christ), the servant of Satan represents Satan himself. Just as the one mighty and strong will accomplish the work of Jesus on the earth, the servant of Satan will accomplish the work of the devil.
The start of the mission of each of these people will dramatically affect
life on earth.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
The kingdom of the devil will rise up and persecute the kingdom of God in an unprecedented manner as soon as the mission of these two begin. The calling of the one mighty and strong will initiate a physical gathering to places of safety in the wilderness. Meanwhile, Christians everywhere will be persecuted.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
This flood is not symbolic. The places of safety will be in the Rocky Mountains in the USA.
The flood could be caused by man-made nuclear tsunamis on the west coast of the US. Far fetched?
The Russians have designed and leaked equipment and plans to do just that.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Again, this is not symbolic. There will be an earthquake that will cause the waters to subside somewhat.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
There will be a literal war between those who believe in God
and those who do not.
Last edited by I AM on March 31st, 2018, 1:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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I AM
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Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
( more information I have gathered on the Davidic servant, the one mighty and strong )
The One Mighty and Strong
At the end of his time with the Israelites, Moses prophesies that they will turn astray. He also says this:
15 ¶The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deut. 18)
There are many other scriptures that refer to this concept.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. (Acts 3)
Is Jesus the mighty and strong one?
Most people think that the mighty and strong one is Jesus.
There are a lot of reasons for that. For one, the LDS church has since around 1900 shifted away from the traditional literal interpretation of the verses that describe him, instead saying the pre-advent scriptures prophesying of this event were fulfilled at the time of Jesus. The practice of reallocating prophecy to other times in order to avoid uncomfortable conclusions is not new. It was widely practiced in the Old Testament, just they did it in reverse. They wrote off the prophecies of Isaiah and others to some long future event. We write them off as something that was fulfilled long ago.
Another reason we tend to think the one mighty and strong is Jesus is that we want to avoid unrighteous elevation of a person to the status of a demigod. When one actually lists out all the scriptures describing this person (as I will here), you must either conclude that this person is very literally a savior. That really bothers many people, particularly those who have just come out of an abusive religious relationship where men have caused them much grief through putting themselves in the place of God. Still, the fact that almost all kings in scripture are wicked did not mean that King Benjamin could not be righteous. The scriptures are still there, and we have the obligation of reading them literally and going to God to piece together the meaning.
Another reason we think of the one might and strong as Jesus is that an incomplete reading of scriptures that reference him.
20 And the Lord will surely prepare a way for his people, unto the fulfilling of the words of Moses, which he spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that all those who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people. 21 And now I, Nephi, declare unto you, that this prophet of whom Moses spake was the Holy One of Israel; wherefore, he shall execute judgment in righteousness. (1 Nephi 22)
36 After telling me these things, he commenced quoting the prophecies of the Old Testament. He first quoted part of the third chapter of Malachi; and he quoted also the fourth or last chapter of the same prophecy, though with a little variation from the way it reads in our Bibles. Instead of quoting the first verse as it reads in our books, he quoted it thus: 37 For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble; for they that come shall burn them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 38 And again, he quoted the fifth verse thus: Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 39 He also quoted the next verse differently: And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming. 40 In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when “they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,” but soon would come. (JS-H)
If these were the only verses you read on the topic, it would seem clear that Christ is the one mighty and strong. And yet, he's not.
Once we graduate from elementary gospel principles, we should also graduate from assuming that one solitary verse conveys the full meaning of a topic.
God has scattered the complete picture across scripture.
He intends for us to search them out and put them together. Mysteries do not come to people who aren't willing to invest the effort to search them out.
Why isn't Jesus the one mighty and strong?
1. Because he said himself that he is not.
Before presenting this, let me remind readers that when God causes something to happen, he frequently takes credit for it, even if he is not the one who does the deed.
For example, he could say that he destroyed the Egyptians that were chasing the Israelites when it was Moses who parted the seas and caused them to recombine over the Egyptian army.
Here is the most important passage on this topic. It is 3 Nephi 20-21. While this passage is split across two chapters in the modern Book of Mormon, recall that the chapter separations are arbitrary and were created after Joseph.
10 And it came to pass that when they had all given glory unto Jesus, he said unto them: Behold now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people, who are a remnant of the house of Israel.
11 Ye remember that I spake unto you, and said that when the words of Isaiah should be fulfilled—behold they are written, ye have them before you, therefore search them—
12 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that when they shall be fulfilled then is the fulfilling of the covenant which the Father hath made unto his people, O house of Israel.
13 And then shall the remnants, which shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the earth, be gathered in from the east and from the west, and from the south and from the north; and they shall be brought to the knowledge of the Lord their God, who hath redeemed them.
14 And the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you this land, for your inheritance.
15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—
16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
17 Thy hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.
18 And I will gather my people together as a man gathereth his sheaves into the floor.
19 For I will make my people with whom the Father hath covenanted, yea, I will make thy horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass. And thou shalt beat in pieces many people; and I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth. And behold, I am he who doeth it.
20 And it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that the sword of my justice shall hang over them at that day; and except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles.
21 And it shall come to pass that I will establish my people, O house of Israel.
22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you.
23 Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people. 24 Verily I say unto you, yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have testified of me.
25 And behold, ye are the children of the prophets; and ye are of the house of Israel; and ye are of the covenant which the Father made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham: And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 The Father having raised me up unto you first, and sent me to bless you in turning away every one of you from his iniquities; and this because ye are the children of the covenant—
27 And after that ye were blessed then fulfilleth the Father the covenant which he made with Abraham, saying: In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed—unto the pouring out of the Holy Ghost through me upon the Gentiles, which blessing upon the Gentiles shall make them mighty above all, unto the scattering of my people, O house of Israel.
28 And they shall be a scourge unto the people of this land. Nevertheless, when they shall have received the fulness of my gospel, then if they shall harden their hearts against me I will return their iniquities upon their own heads, saith the Father.
29 And I will remember the covenant which I have made with my people; and I have covenanted with them that I would gather them together in mine own due time, that I would give unto them again the land of their fathers for their inheritance, which is the land of Jerusalem, which is the promised land unto them forever, saith the Father.
30 And it shall come to pass that the time cometh, when the fulness of my gospel shall be preached unto them;
31 And they shall believe in me, that I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and shall pray unto the Father in my name.
32 Then shall their watchmen lift up their voice, and with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye.
33 Then will the Father gather them together again, and give unto them Jerusalem for the land of their inheritance.
34 Then shall they break forth into joy—Sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Father hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
35 The Father hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of the Father; and the Father and I are one.
36 And then shall be brought to pass that which is written: Awake, awake again, and put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city, for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
37 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, sit down, O Jerusalem; loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
38 For thus saith the Lord: Ye have sold yourselves for naught, and ye shall be redeemed without money.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that my people shall know my name; yea, in that day they shall know that I am he that doth speak.
40 And then shall they say: How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings unto them, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings unto them of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion: Thy God reigneth!
41 And then shall a cry go forth: Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch not that which is unclean; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.
42 For ye shall not go out with haste nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel shall be your rearward.
43 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.
44 As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—
45 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him, for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
46 Verily, verily, I say unto you, all these things shall surely come, even as the Father hath commanded me. Then shall this covenant which the Father hath covenanted with his people be fulfilled; and then shall Jerusalem be inhabited again with my people, and it shall be the land of their inheritance.
1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;
2 And behold, this is the thing which I will give unto you for a sign—for verily I say unto you that when these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father, shall be made known unto the Gentiles that they may know concerning this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning this my people who shall be scattered by them;
3 Verily, verily, I say unto you, when these things shall be made known unto them of the Father, and shall come forth of the Father, from them unto you;
4 For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in this land, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel;
5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;
6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;
7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things—it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.
8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them. 10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. 11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant. 12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.
14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;
16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;
17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;
18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.
19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.
20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;
21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.
25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.
26 And then shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when this gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem.
27 Yea, the work shall commence among all the dispersed of my people, with the Father to prepare the way whereby they may come unto me, that they may call on the Father in my name.
28 Yea, and then shall the work commence, with the Father among all nations in preparing the way whereby his people may be gathered home to the land of their inheritance.
29 And they shall go out from all nations; and they shall not go out in haste, nor go by flight, for I will go before them, saith the Father, and I will be their rearward.
It is undeniable that in 3 Nephi 21:9-11 Jesus is talking about a third person. Not him, and not the Father. A great and marvelous work will be done by "a man," not "me." The servant will be marred, and Jesus will heal him.
The Father will cause this third person to bring forth the words of Jesus. It's all crystal clear. We have to use these verses, which are clear, to interpret the others, which are ambiguous.
The only conclusion is that, though the prophet is technically Christ, it is actually through another man that these words come. This is why it is so important to have a correct understanding of the one mighty and strong and his mission:
Those who do not heed the words of Christ through him will be cut off from the covenant.
2. The manner of Jesus' return is contrary to the description of the environment and works of the one mighty and strong.
Jesus came without glory to the earth at the meridian of time.
His three year ministry resulted in bringing about 500 people to the level of glory necessary to bear his exalted presence after his resurrection.
While he could appear to the masses in his glory-less state before his resurrection, he could not do so afterward. Why?
Because those unprepared for his presence cannot survive it.
The primary mission of the one mighty and strong is to help people come up to the level of glory required to bear the presence of Christ.
Since these people by definition are not yet there, they cannot yet endure the presence of Christ. How could Christ minister to people not yet prepared to be in his presence in order to bring them into his presence?
Passages describing the one mighty and strong and his mission:
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 ¶And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15 And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt. (Isaiah 11)
"The Savior said when these tribulations should take place, it should be committed to a man who should be a witness over the whole world: the keys of knowledge, power and revelations should be revealed to a witness who should hold the testimony of the world.....All testimony is that the Lord in the last days would commit the keys of the Priesthood to a witness over all people. Has the Gospel of the kingdom commenced in the last days? And will God take it from the man until He takes him Himself? I have read it precisely as the words flowed from the lips of Jesus Christ John the Revelator saw an angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth. The scripture is ready to be fulfilled when great wars, famines, pestilence, great distress, judgments, &c., are ready to be poured out on the inhabitants of the earth. John saw the angel having the holy Priesthood, who should preach the everlasting Gospel to all nations God had an angel---a special messenger---ordained and prepared for that purpose in the last days. Woe, woe be to that man or set of men who life up their hands against God and His witness in these last days: for they shall deceive almost the very chosen ones!" (TPJS 364)
``Behold, the Lord hath a might and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.'' (Isaiah 28:2)
"And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God.
While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning. And all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailing and gnashing of teeth.'"
(D&C 85:7-9)
"Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book. And there shall rise up one mighty among them [the seed of Lehi], who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren." (2 Nephi 3:23-24)
"[What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?] Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days." (D&C 113:5-6)
"...the throne & kingdom of David is to be taken from him & given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his linage.''
(Words of Joseph Smith, 10 Mar 1844)
"10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek; and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.'" (2 Nephi 21:10-12)
Therefore shall my people come to know my name; in that day they shall know
that I, who speak, am at hand.
7 Then shall they say,
How comely upon the mountains
are the feet of the messenger announcing peace, who brings tidings of good,
who heralds salvation,
saying to Zion, Your God reigns!
8 Hark! Your watchmen lift up their voice; as one they cry out for joy:
for they shall see eye to eye when Jehovah returns to Zion. 10b Jehovah has bared his holy arm
in the eyes of all nations,
that all ends of the earth may see
our God’s salvation.
9 Break out all together into song,
you ruined places of Jerusalem: Jehovah has comforted his people;
he has redeemed Jerusalem.
11 Turn away, depart;
touch nothing defiled as you leave Babylon.
Come out of her and be pure,
you who bear Jehovah’s vessels.
12 But you shall not leave in haste or go in flight: Jehovah will go before you,
the God of Israel behind you.
13 My servant, being astute, shall be highly exalted; he shall become exceedingly eminent:
14 just as he appalled many—
his appearance was marred beyond human likeness, his semblance unlike that of men—
15 So shall he yet astounde many nations, kings shutting their mouths at him—
what was not told them, they shall see;
what they had not heard, they shall consider.
1 Who has believed our revelation?
On whose account has the arm of Jehovah been revealed?
2 Like a sapling he grew up in his presence, a stalk out of arid ground.
He had no distinguished appearance, that we should notice him;
he had no pleasing aspect,
that we should find him attractive.
3 He was despised and disdained by men,
a man of grief, accustomed to suffering.
As one from whom men hide their faces
he was shunned, deemed by us of no merit.
4 Yet he bore our sufferings, endured our griefs, though we thought him stricken,
smitten of God, and humbled.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities;
the price of our peace he incurred,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 We all like sheep had gone astray, each of us headed his own way;
Jehovah brought together upon him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was harassed, yet submissive, and opened not his mouth—
like a lamb led to slaughter,
like a sheep, dumb before its shearers, he opened not his mouth.
8 By arrest and trial he was taken away. Who can apprise his generation
that he was cut off from the land of the living for the crime of my people,
to whom the blow was due?
9 He was appointed among the wicked in death,a among the rich was his burial;a
yet he had done no violence,
and deceit was not in his mouth.
10 But Jehovah willed to crush him, causing him suffering,
that, if heb made his life an offering for guilt,
he might see his offspring and prolong his days,
and that the purposes of Jehovah
might prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see the toil of his soul and be satisfied; because of his knowledge,
and by bearing their iniquities,
shall my servant, the righteous one, vindicate many.
12 I will assign him an inheritance among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty,
because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with criminals--
he bore the sins of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isaiah 52-53, Gileadi Translation)
Hear me, O isles; listen, you distant peoples: Jehovah called me before I was in the belly; before I was in my mother’s womb, he mentioned me by name. 2 He has made my mouth like a sharp sword—
in the shadowa of his hand he hid me. He has made me into a polished arrow—
in his quiver he kept me secret. 3 He said to me, You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 I had thought, I have labored in vain,
I have spent my strength for nothing
and to no purpose!
Yet my cause rested with Jehovah,
my recompense with my God.
5 For now Jehovah has said—
he who formed me from the womb
to be his servant, to restore Jacob to him, Israel having been gathered to him; for I won honor in the eyes of Jehovah
when my God became my strength— 6 he said: It is too small a thing
for you to be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to restore those preserved of Israel.
I will also appoint you to be a light to the nations,
that my salvation may be to the end of the earth.
7 Thus says Jehovah,
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel,
to him who is despised as a person, who is abhorred by his nation,
a servant to those in authority:
Kings shall rise up when they see you, princes shall prostrate themselves,
because Jehovah keeps faith with you,
because the Holy One of Israel has chosen you.
8 Thus says Jehovah:
At a favorable time I have answered you;
in the day of salvation I have come to your aid:
I have created you and appointed you to be a covenant of the people,
to restore the Land and reapportion the desolate estates, 9 to say to the captives, Come forth!
and to those in darkness, Show yourselves! They shall feed along the way
and find pasture on all barren heights; 10 they shall not hunger or thirst,
nor be smitten by the heatwave or the sun: he who has mercy on them will guide them;
he will lead them by springs of water.
11 All my mountain ranges I will appoint as roads; my highways shall be on high.
12 See these, coming from afar, these, from the northwest,
and these, from the land of Sinim.
13 Shout for joy, O heavens; celebrate, O earth!
Burst into song, O mountains! Jehovah is comforting his people,
showing compassion for his afflicted.
14 But Zion said, Jehovah has forsaken me, my Lord has forgotten me.
15 Can a woman forget her suckling infant,
or feel no compassion for the child of her womb?
Although these shall forget, I will not forget you. 16 See, I have engraved you on my palms;
cI have sealed youc to be continually before me.
17 Your sons shall hasten your ravagers away— those who ruined you shall depart from you.
18 Lift up your eyes and look around you;
with one accord they gather and come to you.
As surely as I live, says Jehovah,
you shall adorn yourself with them all as with jewels,
bind them on you as does a bride.
19 For your ruins and ravaged places, and your land laid waste,
shall now be too small for your inhabitants, despite the departure of your devourers.
20 The children born during the time of your bereavement shall yet say in your ears,
This place is too cramped for us; give us space in which to settle!
21 And you will say to yourself,
Who bore me these while I was bereaved and barren?
I was exiled, banished;
by whom were these reared?
When I was left to myself, where were they?
22 Thus says my Lord Jehovah:
I will lift up my hand to the nations, raise my ensign to the peoples;
and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders.
23 Kings shall be your foster fathers, queens your nursing mothers.
They will bow down before you, their faces to the ground;
they will lick the dust of your feet.
Then shall you know that I am Jehovah,
and that they who hope in me are not disappointed.
24 Can the warrior’s spoil be taken from him, or the tyrant’s captives escape free?
25 Yet thus says Jehovah: The warrior’s spoil shall indeed be taken from him,
and the tyrant’s captivesf escape free:
I myself will contend with your contenders,
and I will deliver your children.
26 I will feed your oppressors with their own flesh;
they shall be drunk with their own blood as with wine. And all flesh shall know that I Jehovah am your Savior,
that your Redeemer is the Valiant One of Jacob.
(Isaiah 49, Gileadi Translation)
My servant whom I sustain, my chosen one in whom I delight, him I have endowed with my Spirit;
he will dispense justice to the nations.a 2 He will not shout or raise his voice
to make himself heard in public. 3 Even a bruised reed he will not break;
a dim wick he will not snuff out. He will perform the work of justice
in the cause of truth.
4 Neither shall he himself grow dim or be bruised
until he has brought about justice in the earth. The isles await his law.
5 Thus says Jehovah, God,
who frames and suspends the heavens,
who gives form to the earth and its creatures, the breath of life to the people upon it, spirit to those who walk on it:
6 I Jehovah have rightfully called you and will grasp you by the hand;
I have created you and appointed you to be a covenant for the people,
a light to the nations,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from confinement
and from prison those who sit in darkness.
8 I am Jehovah; that is my name.
I will not relinquish my glory to another, nor my praise to wrought idols.
9 The prophecies of the former events indeed came to pass,
but new things I yet foretell.
Before they spring up I declare them to you.
10 Sing to Jehovah a new song;
sing his praise from the end of the earth.
Let the sea roar, and all that lives in it, the isles and they who inhabit them.
11 Let the desert and its cities raise their voice, and the villages where Kedar dwells;
let the inhabitants of Sela sing for joy
and cry out from the tops of the mountains.
12 O let them give glory to Jehovah,
and in the isles speak out in praise of him.
13 Jehovah will come forth like a warrior, his passions aroused like a fighter;
he will give the war cry,
raise the shout of victory over his enemies.
14 For a long time I have been silent, keeping still and restraining myself.
But now I will scream like a woman in labor and breathe hard and fast all at once.
15 I will lay waste mountains and hills
and make all their vegetation wither;
I will turn rivers into dry land and evaporate lakes.
16 Then will I lead the blind by a way they did not know, and guide them in paths unfamiliar;
the darkness confronting them I will turn into light, and the uneven ground make level.
These things I will not fail to perform.
17 But those who trust in idols
and esteem their images as gods
shall retreat in utter confusion.
18 O you deaf, listen; O you blind, look and see! 19 Who is blind but my own servant,
or so deaf as the messenger I have sent? Who is blind like those I have commissioned,
as uncomprehending as the servant of Jehovah— 20 seeing much but not giving heed,
with open ears hearing nothing?
21 It is the will of Jehovah that,
because of his righteousness,
they magnify the law and become illustrious.
22 Instead, they are a people plundered and sacked, all of them trapped in holes,
hidden away in dungeons.
They have become a prey, yet no one rescues them, a spoil, yet none demands restitution.
23 Who among you hearing this will take heed of it hereafter, and be mindful and obey?
24 Who is it that hands Jacob over to plunder and Israel to despoilers, if not Jehovah, against whom we have sinned?
For they have no desire to walk in his ways or obey his law.
25 So in the heat of his anger
he pours out on them the violence of war,
till it envelopes them in flames— yet they remain unaware—
till it sets them on fire;
yet they take it not to heart. (Isaiah 42, Gileadi Translation)
The One Mighty and Strong
At the end of his time with the Israelites, Moses prophesies that they will turn astray. He also says this:
15 ¶The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deut. 18)
There are many other scriptures that refer to this concept.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. (Acts 3)
Is Jesus the mighty and strong one?
Most people think that the mighty and strong one is Jesus.
There are a lot of reasons for that. For one, the LDS church has since around 1900 shifted away from the traditional literal interpretation of the verses that describe him, instead saying the pre-advent scriptures prophesying of this event were fulfilled at the time of Jesus. The practice of reallocating prophecy to other times in order to avoid uncomfortable conclusions is not new. It was widely practiced in the Old Testament, just they did it in reverse. They wrote off the prophecies of Isaiah and others to some long future event. We write them off as something that was fulfilled long ago.
Another reason we tend to think the one mighty and strong is Jesus is that we want to avoid unrighteous elevation of a person to the status of a demigod. When one actually lists out all the scriptures describing this person (as I will here), you must either conclude that this person is very literally a savior. That really bothers many people, particularly those who have just come out of an abusive religious relationship where men have caused them much grief through putting themselves in the place of God. Still, the fact that almost all kings in scripture are wicked did not mean that King Benjamin could not be righteous. The scriptures are still there, and we have the obligation of reading them literally and going to God to piece together the meaning.
Another reason we think of the one might and strong as Jesus is that an incomplete reading of scriptures that reference him.
20 And the Lord will surely prepare a way for his people, unto the fulfilling of the words of Moses, which he spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that all those who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people. 21 And now I, Nephi, declare unto you, that this prophet of whom Moses spake was the Holy One of Israel; wherefore, he shall execute judgment in righteousness. (1 Nephi 22)
36 After telling me these things, he commenced quoting the prophecies of the Old Testament. He first quoted part of the third chapter of Malachi; and he quoted also the fourth or last chapter of the same prophecy, though with a little variation from the way it reads in our Bibles. Instead of quoting the first verse as it reads in our books, he quoted it thus: 37 For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble; for they that come shall burn them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 38 And again, he quoted the fifth verse thus: Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 39 He also quoted the next verse differently: And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming. 40 In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when “they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,” but soon would come. (JS-H)
If these were the only verses you read on the topic, it would seem clear that Christ is the one mighty and strong. And yet, he's not.
Once we graduate from elementary gospel principles, we should also graduate from assuming that one solitary verse conveys the full meaning of a topic.
God has scattered the complete picture across scripture.
He intends for us to search them out and put them together. Mysteries do not come to people who aren't willing to invest the effort to search them out.
Why isn't Jesus the one mighty and strong?
1. Because he said himself that he is not.
Before presenting this, let me remind readers that when God causes something to happen, he frequently takes credit for it, even if he is not the one who does the deed.
For example, he could say that he destroyed the Egyptians that were chasing the Israelites when it was Moses who parted the seas and caused them to recombine over the Egyptian army.
Here is the most important passage on this topic. It is 3 Nephi 20-21. While this passage is split across two chapters in the modern Book of Mormon, recall that the chapter separations are arbitrary and were created after Joseph.
10 And it came to pass that when they had all given glory unto Jesus, he said unto them: Behold now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people, who are a remnant of the house of Israel.
11 Ye remember that I spake unto you, and said that when the words of Isaiah should be fulfilled—behold they are written, ye have them before you, therefore search them—
12 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that when they shall be fulfilled then is the fulfilling of the covenant which the Father hath made unto his people, O house of Israel.
13 And then shall the remnants, which shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the earth, be gathered in from the east and from the west, and from the south and from the north; and they shall be brought to the knowledge of the Lord their God, who hath redeemed them.
14 And the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you this land, for your inheritance.
15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—
16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
17 Thy hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.
18 And I will gather my people together as a man gathereth his sheaves into the floor.
19 For I will make my people with whom the Father hath covenanted, yea, I will make thy horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass. And thou shalt beat in pieces many people; and I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth. And behold, I am he who doeth it.
20 And it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that the sword of my justice shall hang over them at that day; and except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles.
21 And it shall come to pass that I will establish my people, O house of Israel.
22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you.
23 Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people. 24 Verily I say unto you, yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have testified of me.
25 And behold, ye are the children of the prophets; and ye are of the house of Israel; and ye are of the covenant which the Father made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham: And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 The Father having raised me up unto you first, and sent me to bless you in turning away every one of you from his iniquities; and this because ye are the children of the covenant—
27 And after that ye were blessed then fulfilleth the Father the covenant which he made with Abraham, saying: In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed—unto the pouring out of the Holy Ghost through me upon the Gentiles, which blessing upon the Gentiles shall make them mighty above all, unto the scattering of my people, O house of Israel.
28 And they shall be a scourge unto the people of this land. Nevertheless, when they shall have received the fulness of my gospel, then if they shall harden their hearts against me I will return their iniquities upon their own heads, saith the Father.
29 And I will remember the covenant which I have made with my people; and I have covenanted with them that I would gather them together in mine own due time, that I would give unto them again the land of their fathers for their inheritance, which is the land of Jerusalem, which is the promised land unto them forever, saith the Father.
30 And it shall come to pass that the time cometh, when the fulness of my gospel shall be preached unto them;
31 And they shall believe in me, that I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and shall pray unto the Father in my name.
32 Then shall their watchmen lift up their voice, and with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye.
33 Then will the Father gather them together again, and give unto them Jerusalem for the land of their inheritance.
34 Then shall they break forth into joy—Sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Father hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
35 The Father hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of the Father; and the Father and I are one.
36 And then shall be brought to pass that which is written: Awake, awake again, and put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city, for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
37 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, sit down, O Jerusalem; loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
38 For thus saith the Lord: Ye have sold yourselves for naught, and ye shall be redeemed without money.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that my people shall know my name; yea, in that day they shall know that I am he that doth speak.
40 And then shall they say: How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings unto them, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings unto them of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion: Thy God reigneth!
41 And then shall a cry go forth: Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch not that which is unclean; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.
42 For ye shall not go out with haste nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel shall be your rearward.
43 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.
44 As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—
45 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him, for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
46 Verily, verily, I say unto you, all these things shall surely come, even as the Father hath commanded me. Then shall this covenant which the Father hath covenanted with his people be fulfilled; and then shall Jerusalem be inhabited again with my people, and it shall be the land of their inheritance.
1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;
2 And behold, this is the thing which I will give unto you for a sign—for verily I say unto you that when these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father, shall be made known unto the Gentiles that they may know concerning this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning this my people who shall be scattered by them;
3 Verily, verily, I say unto you, when these things shall be made known unto them of the Father, and shall come forth of the Father, from them unto you;
4 For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in this land, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel;
5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;
6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;
7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things—it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.
8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them. 10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. 11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant. 12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.
14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;
16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;
17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;
18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.
19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.
20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;
21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.
25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.
26 And then shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when this gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem.
27 Yea, the work shall commence among all the dispersed of my people, with the Father to prepare the way whereby they may come unto me, that they may call on the Father in my name.
28 Yea, and then shall the work commence, with the Father among all nations in preparing the way whereby his people may be gathered home to the land of their inheritance.
29 And they shall go out from all nations; and they shall not go out in haste, nor go by flight, for I will go before them, saith the Father, and I will be their rearward.
It is undeniable that in 3 Nephi 21:9-11 Jesus is talking about a third person. Not him, and not the Father. A great and marvelous work will be done by "a man," not "me." The servant will be marred, and Jesus will heal him.
The Father will cause this third person to bring forth the words of Jesus. It's all crystal clear. We have to use these verses, which are clear, to interpret the others, which are ambiguous.
The only conclusion is that, though the prophet is technically Christ, it is actually through another man that these words come. This is why it is so important to have a correct understanding of the one mighty and strong and his mission:
Those who do not heed the words of Christ through him will be cut off from the covenant.
2. The manner of Jesus' return is contrary to the description of the environment and works of the one mighty and strong.
Jesus came without glory to the earth at the meridian of time.
His three year ministry resulted in bringing about 500 people to the level of glory necessary to bear his exalted presence after his resurrection.
While he could appear to the masses in his glory-less state before his resurrection, he could not do so afterward. Why?
Because those unprepared for his presence cannot survive it.
The primary mission of the one mighty and strong is to help people come up to the level of glory required to bear the presence of Christ.
Since these people by definition are not yet there, they cannot yet endure the presence of Christ. How could Christ minister to people not yet prepared to be in his presence in order to bring them into his presence?
Passages describing the one mighty and strong and his mission:
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 ¶And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15 And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt. (Isaiah 11)
"The Savior said when these tribulations should take place, it should be committed to a man who should be a witness over the whole world: the keys of knowledge, power and revelations should be revealed to a witness who should hold the testimony of the world.....All testimony is that the Lord in the last days would commit the keys of the Priesthood to a witness over all people. Has the Gospel of the kingdom commenced in the last days? And will God take it from the man until He takes him Himself? I have read it precisely as the words flowed from the lips of Jesus Christ John the Revelator saw an angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth. The scripture is ready to be fulfilled when great wars, famines, pestilence, great distress, judgments, &c., are ready to be poured out on the inhabitants of the earth. John saw the angel having the holy Priesthood, who should preach the everlasting Gospel to all nations God had an angel---a special messenger---ordained and prepared for that purpose in the last days. Woe, woe be to that man or set of men who life up their hands against God and His witness in these last days: for they shall deceive almost the very chosen ones!" (TPJS 364)
``Behold, the Lord hath a might and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.'' (Isaiah 28:2)
"And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God.
While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning. And all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailing and gnashing of teeth.'"
(D&C 85:7-9)
"Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book. And there shall rise up one mighty among them [the seed of Lehi], who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren." (2 Nephi 3:23-24)
"[What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?] Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days." (D&C 113:5-6)
"...the throne & kingdom of David is to be taken from him & given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his linage.''
(Words of Joseph Smith, 10 Mar 1844)
"10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek; and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.'" (2 Nephi 21:10-12)
Therefore shall my people come to know my name; in that day they shall know
that I, who speak, am at hand.
7 Then shall they say,
How comely upon the mountains
are the feet of the messenger announcing peace, who brings tidings of good,
who heralds salvation,
saying to Zion, Your God reigns!
8 Hark! Your watchmen lift up their voice; as one they cry out for joy:
for they shall see eye to eye when Jehovah returns to Zion. 10b Jehovah has bared his holy arm
in the eyes of all nations,
that all ends of the earth may see
our God’s salvation.
9 Break out all together into song,
you ruined places of Jerusalem: Jehovah has comforted his people;
he has redeemed Jerusalem.
11 Turn away, depart;
touch nothing defiled as you leave Babylon.
Come out of her and be pure,
you who bear Jehovah’s vessels.
12 But you shall not leave in haste or go in flight: Jehovah will go before you,
the God of Israel behind you.
13 My servant, being astute, shall be highly exalted; he shall become exceedingly eminent:
14 just as he appalled many—
his appearance was marred beyond human likeness, his semblance unlike that of men—
15 So shall he yet astounde many nations, kings shutting their mouths at him—
what was not told them, they shall see;
what they had not heard, they shall consider.
1 Who has believed our revelation?
On whose account has the arm of Jehovah been revealed?
2 Like a sapling he grew up in his presence, a stalk out of arid ground.
He had no distinguished appearance, that we should notice him;
he had no pleasing aspect,
that we should find him attractive.
3 He was despised and disdained by men,
a man of grief, accustomed to suffering.
As one from whom men hide their faces
he was shunned, deemed by us of no merit.
4 Yet he bore our sufferings, endured our griefs, though we thought him stricken,
smitten of God, and humbled.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities;
the price of our peace he incurred,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 We all like sheep had gone astray, each of us headed his own way;
Jehovah brought together upon him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was harassed, yet submissive, and opened not his mouth—
like a lamb led to slaughter,
like a sheep, dumb before its shearers, he opened not his mouth.
8 By arrest and trial he was taken away. Who can apprise his generation
that he was cut off from the land of the living for the crime of my people,
to whom the blow was due?
9 He was appointed among the wicked in death,a among the rich was his burial;a
yet he had done no violence,
and deceit was not in his mouth.
10 But Jehovah willed to crush him, causing him suffering,
that, if heb made his life an offering for guilt,
he might see his offspring and prolong his days,
and that the purposes of Jehovah
might prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see the toil of his soul and be satisfied; because of his knowledge,
and by bearing their iniquities,
shall my servant, the righteous one, vindicate many.
12 I will assign him an inheritance among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty,
because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with criminals--
he bore the sins of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isaiah 52-53, Gileadi Translation)
Hear me, O isles; listen, you distant peoples: Jehovah called me before I was in the belly; before I was in my mother’s womb, he mentioned me by name. 2 He has made my mouth like a sharp sword—
in the shadowa of his hand he hid me. He has made me into a polished arrow—
in his quiver he kept me secret. 3 He said to me, You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 I had thought, I have labored in vain,
I have spent my strength for nothing
and to no purpose!
Yet my cause rested with Jehovah,
my recompense with my God.
5 For now Jehovah has said—
he who formed me from the womb
to be his servant, to restore Jacob to him, Israel having been gathered to him; for I won honor in the eyes of Jehovah
when my God became my strength— 6 he said: It is too small a thing
for you to be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to restore those preserved of Israel.
I will also appoint you to be a light to the nations,
that my salvation may be to the end of the earth.
7 Thus says Jehovah,
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel,
to him who is despised as a person, who is abhorred by his nation,
a servant to those in authority:
Kings shall rise up when they see you, princes shall prostrate themselves,
because Jehovah keeps faith with you,
because the Holy One of Israel has chosen you.
8 Thus says Jehovah:
At a favorable time I have answered you;
in the day of salvation I have come to your aid:
I have created you and appointed you to be a covenant of the people,
to restore the Land and reapportion the desolate estates, 9 to say to the captives, Come forth!
and to those in darkness, Show yourselves! They shall feed along the way
and find pasture on all barren heights; 10 they shall not hunger or thirst,
nor be smitten by the heatwave or the sun: he who has mercy on them will guide them;
he will lead them by springs of water.
11 All my mountain ranges I will appoint as roads; my highways shall be on high.
12 See these, coming from afar, these, from the northwest,
and these, from the land of Sinim.
13 Shout for joy, O heavens; celebrate, O earth!
Burst into song, O mountains! Jehovah is comforting his people,
showing compassion for his afflicted.
14 But Zion said, Jehovah has forsaken me, my Lord has forgotten me.
15 Can a woman forget her suckling infant,
or feel no compassion for the child of her womb?
Although these shall forget, I will not forget you. 16 See, I have engraved you on my palms;
cI have sealed youc to be continually before me.
17 Your sons shall hasten your ravagers away— those who ruined you shall depart from you.
18 Lift up your eyes and look around you;
with one accord they gather and come to you.
As surely as I live, says Jehovah,
you shall adorn yourself with them all as with jewels,
bind them on you as does a bride.
19 For your ruins and ravaged places, and your land laid waste,
shall now be too small for your inhabitants, despite the departure of your devourers.
20 The children born during the time of your bereavement shall yet say in your ears,
This place is too cramped for us; give us space in which to settle!
21 And you will say to yourself,
Who bore me these while I was bereaved and barren?
I was exiled, banished;
by whom were these reared?
When I was left to myself, where were they?
22 Thus says my Lord Jehovah:
I will lift up my hand to the nations, raise my ensign to the peoples;
and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders.
23 Kings shall be your foster fathers, queens your nursing mothers.
They will bow down before you, their faces to the ground;
they will lick the dust of your feet.
Then shall you know that I am Jehovah,
and that they who hope in me are not disappointed.
24 Can the warrior’s spoil be taken from him, or the tyrant’s captives escape free?
25 Yet thus says Jehovah: The warrior’s spoil shall indeed be taken from him,
and the tyrant’s captivesf escape free:
I myself will contend with your contenders,
and I will deliver your children.
26 I will feed your oppressors with their own flesh;
they shall be drunk with their own blood as with wine. And all flesh shall know that I Jehovah am your Savior,
that your Redeemer is the Valiant One of Jacob.
(Isaiah 49, Gileadi Translation)
My servant whom I sustain, my chosen one in whom I delight, him I have endowed with my Spirit;
he will dispense justice to the nations.a 2 He will not shout or raise his voice
to make himself heard in public. 3 Even a bruised reed he will not break;
a dim wick he will not snuff out. He will perform the work of justice
in the cause of truth.
4 Neither shall he himself grow dim or be bruised
until he has brought about justice in the earth. The isles await his law.
5 Thus says Jehovah, God,
who frames and suspends the heavens,
who gives form to the earth and its creatures, the breath of life to the people upon it, spirit to those who walk on it:
6 I Jehovah have rightfully called you and will grasp you by the hand;
I have created you and appointed you to be a covenant for the people,
a light to the nations,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from confinement
and from prison those who sit in darkness.
8 I am Jehovah; that is my name.
I will not relinquish my glory to another, nor my praise to wrought idols.
9 The prophecies of the former events indeed came to pass,
but new things I yet foretell.
Before they spring up I declare them to you.
10 Sing to Jehovah a new song;
sing his praise from the end of the earth.
Let the sea roar, and all that lives in it, the isles and they who inhabit them.
11 Let the desert and its cities raise their voice, and the villages where Kedar dwells;
let the inhabitants of Sela sing for joy
and cry out from the tops of the mountains.
12 O let them give glory to Jehovah,
and in the isles speak out in praise of him.
13 Jehovah will come forth like a warrior, his passions aroused like a fighter;
he will give the war cry,
raise the shout of victory over his enemies.
14 For a long time I have been silent, keeping still and restraining myself.
But now I will scream like a woman in labor and breathe hard and fast all at once.
15 I will lay waste mountains and hills
and make all their vegetation wither;
I will turn rivers into dry land and evaporate lakes.
16 Then will I lead the blind by a way they did not know, and guide them in paths unfamiliar;
the darkness confronting them I will turn into light, and the uneven ground make level.
These things I will not fail to perform.
17 But those who trust in idols
and esteem their images as gods
shall retreat in utter confusion.
18 O you deaf, listen; O you blind, look and see! 19 Who is blind but my own servant,
or so deaf as the messenger I have sent? Who is blind like those I have commissioned,
as uncomprehending as the servant of Jehovah— 20 seeing much but not giving heed,
with open ears hearing nothing?
21 It is the will of Jehovah that,
because of his righteousness,
they magnify the law and become illustrious.
22 Instead, they are a people plundered and sacked, all of them trapped in holes,
hidden away in dungeons.
They have become a prey, yet no one rescues them, a spoil, yet none demands restitution.
23 Who among you hearing this will take heed of it hereafter, and be mindful and obey?
24 Who is it that hands Jacob over to plunder and Israel to despoilers, if not Jehovah, against whom we have sinned?
For they have no desire to walk in his ways or obey his law.
25 So in the heat of his anger
he pours out on them the violence of war,
till it envelopes them in flames— yet they remain unaware—
till it sets them on fire;
yet they take it not to heart. (Isaiah 42, Gileadi Translation)
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setyourselffree
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1258
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
Why would God need to heal John who is a translated being? How does someone who is translated be healed?
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I AM
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2456
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
because he will be marred.setyourselffree wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 12:08 am Why would God need to heal John who is a translated being? How does someone who is translated be healed?
you assume he needs to healed because he is hurt physically.
This is not the case.
I believe the marred servant is marred just as a person is marred by someone or many people when they try to disprove, discredit and don't believe him, they hurt his character. Deface him. I looked up the definition of deface and here is what I found - Deface - spoil the surface or appearance of (something), e.g., by drawing or writing on it;
mar or disfigure.
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A person may not be hurt physically but he is hurt in some other way. - Maybe his character, spiritually, emotionally mentally.
He will come and personify Christ, He will come with Christ's words
( the sealed portion ) and just as Christ's own people rejected him so it is with this servant.
Maybe he is a Mormon but the Lord sends him not through the ranks in the church, so his own people (the church and members don't believe him, (but some do) so he is marred but -
Christ does say " they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them."
Now doesn't this sound like that he is not hurt phyisically, but marred or discredited by them.
3 Nephi 21:10
10 "But behold, the life of my servant
shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him,
although he shall be marred because of them.
Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them
that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil."
As I have stated before
Quote
"The Mormons are prophesied to mar the Davidic Servant, in a parallel to the Jews' crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The triumphal regeneration or healing following that marring will be on a parallel with the resurrection. And as Jesus' mission was about individual salvation, the Davidic Servant's mission will be about societal salvation; and in conjunction with his healing will come a miraculous deliverance from the governmental beast which will have taken a stranglehold upon the entire earth at that point. A nation will be born in a day. The kingdom of God will be established on earth, no more to be thrown down. It will be Zion, a celestial people and city. It will start small, but will eventually (after the next 1000 years) fill the whole earth. Meanwhile, (as most citizens of the earth following the pending tribulations will be of a terrestrial order, none telestial having made it through the purgings of their own making) this Zion will be the capital of the world government that will reign in righteousness under Christ for 1000 years.
When the Mormons mar the Davidic Servant is when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled. They will have filled the measure of their iniquity, and the kingdom will be taken from them and given back to the house of Israel. Then is when the 144,000 go forth to bring in as many as will to the church of the firstborn, which is a celestial order. The world at large will still be very wicked during this time, for the final purgings of the whole earth have not yet happened. The Jews will not yet be converted. "
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quote
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
(3 Nephi 21:9-11.)
Who is the marred servant? It is quite important that we know, because God said those who do not hearken unto him will be cut off from his people of the covenant. (3 Nephi 21:11)
Whoever he is, he must preach to a people who are already of the covenant, as you can't be cut off from something you don't already have.
Could it be Joseph Smith? While Joseph Smith was indeed marred by "them," he was not healed.
I suppose he could be resurrected and preach again to the church that rejected him. The other alternative is that God will raise up a servant to preach to the LDS church, and he will be rejected by them.
Last edited by I AM on March 31st, 2018, 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I AM
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2456
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
Davidic servant -exodus
Isaiah 10
"Jehovah appoints the king of Assyria (Russia) to despoil and destroy the wicked
of his people and the nations."
20 In that day those who survive of Israel and who escape of the house of Jacob will no longer rely on him who struck them,but will truly rely on Jehovah,the Holy One of Israel:
21 of Jacob a remnant will returnto the One Mighty in Valor.
Whereas the Jacob/Israel category of Jehovah’s people is subject to the tyrannical king of Assyria/Babylon—suffering the curses of a broken covenant—in the day that they “repent” (swb) of evil Jehovah makes it possible for them to “return” (swb) in a new exodus to Zion (Isaiah 11:11-12, 15-16; 35:8-10; 51:11). Instead of relying on a power of chaos—on one who does little more than smite them—they now rely on Jehovah, their God, who seeks only to bless them.
The One Mighty in Valor to whom they return is Jehovah’s servant, who leads their end-time exodus (Isaiah 9:6; 11:10; 55:3-7, 12-13).
22 For though your people, O Israel,be as the sands of the sea,only a remnant will return;although annihilation is decreed,it shall overflow with righteousness.
23 For the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts,will carry out the utter destructiondecreed upon the whole earth.
1/10 a tithe survive
Those who survive the “annihilation” or “utter destruction” Jehovah has decreed in his Day of Judgment are but a tithing of his people (cf. Isaiah 6:13): “Had you but obeyed my commandments, your peace would have been as a river, your righteousness like the waves of the sea; your offspring would have been as the sands in number, your descendants as many as their grains. Their names would not have been cut off and obliterated from my presence” (Isaiah 48:18-19). For his people’s righteousness’ sake, however—literal and figurative—
“a remnant will return” (cf. Shear-Jashub, Isaiah 7:3).
___________________________________________________
THE EXODUS
This below is all a quote from someone
"When the Savior was speaking to his disciples they wanted to know the signs of his coming and of the end of the world. He told them many things: there would be False Christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes, and the gospel would be preached in all the world for the last time. (Matthew 24). The chronology is all jumbled and out of order.
Luke gives a similar account but it is better, especially because Joseph Smith translated and corrected some of the verses:
Luke 17:26-37
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot’s wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
The Savior is talking about the time just before the tribulation begins. In fact, he is talking about the time just before the civil war and unrest begin in the United States. He refers to his coming as the beginning of the days of tribulation and judgment so before he begins either, people are living pretty much as normal.
But in one night at the beginning of the tribulation, there is a massive leaving of people: one from bed, one from the field, and so on. The disciples ask the obvious question, "Where are they taken?" The Lord answers with another riddle. He tells them that where the body is, the eagles will be gathered together. The Joseph Smith translation gives the explanation:
Joseph Smith translation
JST, Luke 17:36–38.
Compare Luke 17:37
36 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord, shall they be taken?
37 And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is gathered; or, in other words, whithersoever the saints are gathered, thither will the eagles be gathered together; or, thither will the remainder be gathered together.
38 This he spake, signifying the gathering of his saints; and of angels descending and gathering the remainder unto them; the one from the bed, the other from the grinding, and the other from the field, whithersoever he listeth.
This is the manner in which the exodus will take place. The eagle wings given to the woman are the angels who gather the righteous remnant in one night and transport them to the wilderness where the saints are collected into one body. Eagles refer to angels or to translated beings in Hebrew metaphorical language.
The eagles are also the righteous ones who are gathered out in this miraculous manner and taken to the wilderness. Isaiah says:
Isaiah 40:
31 But they who hope in Jehovahshall be renewed in strength:they shall ascend as on eagles’ wings;they shall run without wearying,they shall walk and not faint.
And:
Isaiah 60:
8 Who are these, aloft like clouds,flying as doves to their portals?
This is the fulfillment of the promise in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. It is realized by those who are taken on the exodus because there will be the elderly, the infirm and the very young. All will be renewed in their bodies and translated during the course of the exodus. The gathering of the eagles will occur in one night or day, depending on which hemisphere you are in, so some will be in the fields while others will be sleeping. The righteous remnant who are to go on the exodus will be taken from the worthy members wherever they are in the world. Unlike the first exodus, however, the people will not take any possessions or supplies. They will go in the clothing they are wearing and will not be allowed to go back for their "stuff". The Lord will provide for the people. He will place a canopy over them to protect from the sun and the other elements:
Isaiah 4:5-6
5 Over the whole site of Mount Zion, and over its solemn assembly, Jehovah will form a cloud by day and a mist glowing with fire by night: above all that is glorious shall be a canopy.
6 It shall be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, a secret refuge from the downpour and from rain.
Mount Zion is the nation of Zion formed in the day the exodus takes place. This is the puzzle cited earlier:
Isaiah 66: 7-9
7 Before she is in labor, she gives birth;before her ordeal overtakes her, she delivers a son!
8 Who has heard the like,or who has seen such things? Can the earth labor but a day and a nation be born at once? For as soon as she was in labor,Zion gave birth to her children.
9 Shall I bring to a crisis and not bring on birth?says Jehovah.When it is I who cause the birth,shall I hinder it? says your God.
So we now can solve the riddle. The Davidic prophet was born before she was in labor, or before the tribulation began. But then the tribulation begins which is the labor of the woman in bringing forth her children. The labor lasts only one day and the nation is born at once. The exodus happens in one day at the beginning of the tribulation and the nation of Zion is created.
Is is not clear how long the righteous remnant will have to endure the tribulation when it begins, but it will not be long because the exodus happens "as soon as she was in labor". This is a great comfort to the truly righteous remnant in the church because they will escape the captivity, or most of it, and the cruel oppression which the rest of the church will suffer throughout the world, especially in this country.
Isaiah 33:14-19
14 The sinners in Zion are struck with fear;the godless are in the grip of trembling:Who among us can live through the devouring fire?Who among us can abide eternal burning?
15 They who conduct themselves righteouslyand are honest in word,who disdain extortionand stay their hand from taking bribes,who stop their ears at the mention of murder,who shut their eyes at the sight of wickedness.
16 They shall dwell on high;the impregnable cliffs are their fortress.Bread is provided them, their water is sure.
17 Your eyes shall behold the King in his glory and view the expanse of the earth. 18 You shall recount in your mind the terror:Where are those who conducted the census?Where are those who levied the tax?Where are the ones who appraised the towers?
19 The insolent people are not to be seen,a nation of incomprehensible speech,whose babbling tongue was unintelligible.
Isaiah describes the condition among the church members when the tribulation arrives. They are struck with fear and trembling. They are two dangers: the devouring fire, which is the kind of Assyria and the eternal burning which is the Lord. Either way there is death. But he gives some of the attributes of those who can escape.
Those who are righteous will escape, that is, those who are not idolaters (seeking bribes and filling their heads with TV violence, murder and other wickedness). They who have these attributes and one other that we will mention, will go on the exodus which is described here. They will be taken to the wilderness, which is the mountain country around here, where those on the exodus will be. The cliffs are impregnable and will be their fortress.
Perhaps the greatest blessing on the exodus will be the privilege of seeing the glorified Lord along with the Davidic prophet/king. The kind spoken of here is probably the Davidic king but elsewhere the Lord says he will be with the people and they will see him. During this trek, the people will be taught both by the Davidic prophet and by the Lord.
In order to be in the presence of the Lord, one has to be translated and indeed, those who go on the exodus will be translated and during the 42 months of the exodus, they will have their call and election made sure.
Isaiah 10
"Jehovah appoints the king of Assyria (Russia) to despoil and destroy the wicked
of his people and the nations."
20 In that day those who survive of Israel and who escape of the house of Jacob will no longer rely on him who struck them,but will truly rely on Jehovah,the Holy One of Israel:
21 of Jacob a remnant will returnto the One Mighty in Valor.
Whereas the Jacob/Israel category of Jehovah’s people is subject to the tyrannical king of Assyria/Babylon—suffering the curses of a broken covenant—in the day that they “repent” (swb) of evil Jehovah makes it possible for them to “return” (swb) in a new exodus to Zion (Isaiah 11:11-12, 15-16; 35:8-10; 51:11). Instead of relying on a power of chaos—on one who does little more than smite them—they now rely on Jehovah, their God, who seeks only to bless them.
The One Mighty in Valor to whom they return is Jehovah’s servant, who leads their end-time exodus (Isaiah 9:6; 11:10; 55:3-7, 12-13).
22 For though your people, O Israel,be as the sands of the sea,only a remnant will return;although annihilation is decreed,it shall overflow with righteousness.
23 For the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts,will carry out the utter destructiondecreed upon the whole earth.
1/10 a tithe survive
Those who survive the “annihilation” or “utter destruction” Jehovah has decreed in his Day of Judgment are but a tithing of his people (cf. Isaiah 6:13): “Had you but obeyed my commandments, your peace would have been as a river, your righteousness like the waves of the sea; your offspring would have been as the sands in number, your descendants as many as their grains. Their names would not have been cut off and obliterated from my presence” (Isaiah 48:18-19). For his people’s righteousness’ sake, however—literal and figurative—
“a remnant will return” (cf. Shear-Jashub, Isaiah 7:3).
___________________________________________________
THE EXODUS
This below is all a quote from someone
"When the Savior was speaking to his disciples they wanted to know the signs of his coming and of the end of the world. He told them many things: there would be False Christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes, and the gospel would be preached in all the world for the last time. (Matthew 24). The chronology is all jumbled and out of order.
Luke gives a similar account but it is better, especially because Joseph Smith translated and corrected some of the verses:
Luke 17:26-37
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot’s wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
The Savior is talking about the time just before the tribulation begins. In fact, he is talking about the time just before the civil war and unrest begin in the United States. He refers to his coming as the beginning of the days of tribulation and judgment so before he begins either, people are living pretty much as normal.
But in one night at the beginning of the tribulation, there is a massive leaving of people: one from bed, one from the field, and so on. The disciples ask the obvious question, "Where are they taken?" The Lord answers with another riddle. He tells them that where the body is, the eagles will be gathered together. The Joseph Smith translation gives the explanation:
Joseph Smith translation
JST, Luke 17:36–38.
Compare Luke 17:37
36 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord, shall they be taken?
37 And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is gathered; or, in other words, whithersoever the saints are gathered, thither will the eagles be gathered together; or, thither will the remainder be gathered together.
38 This he spake, signifying the gathering of his saints; and of angels descending and gathering the remainder unto them; the one from the bed, the other from the grinding, and the other from the field, whithersoever he listeth.
This is the manner in which the exodus will take place. The eagle wings given to the woman are the angels who gather the righteous remnant in one night and transport them to the wilderness where the saints are collected into one body. Eagles refer to angels or to translated beings in Hebrew metaphorical language.
The eagles are also the righteous ones who are gathered out in this miraculous manner and taken to the wilderness. Isaiah says:
Isaiah 40:
31 But they who hope in Jehovahshall be renewed in strength:they shall ascend as on eagles’ wings;they shall run without wearying,they shall walk and not faint.
And:
Isaiah 60:
8 Who are these, aloft like clouds,flying as doves to their portals?
This is the fulfillment of the promise in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. It is realized by those who are taken on the exodus because there will be the elderly, the infirm and the very young. All will be renewed in their bodies and translated during the course of the exodus. The gathering of the eagles will occur in one night or day, depending on which hemisphere you are in, so some will be in the fields while others will be sleeping. The righteous remnant who are to go on the exodus will be taken from the worthy members wherever they are in the world. Unlike the first exodus, however, the people will not take any possessions or supplies. They will go in the clothing they are wearing and will not be allowed to go back for their "stuff". The Lord will provide for the people. He will place a canopy over them to protect from the sun and the other elements:
Isaiah 4:5-6
5 Over the whole site of Mount Zion, and over its solemn assembly, Jehovah will form a cloud by day and a mist glowing with fire by night: above all that is glorious shall be a canopy.
6 It shall be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, a secret refuge from the downpour and from rain.
Mount Zion is the nation of Zion formed in the day the exodus takes place. This is the puzzle cited earlier:
Isaiah 66: 7-9
7 Before she is in labor, she gives birth;before her ordeal overtakes her, she delivers a son!
8 Who has heard the like,or who has seen such things? Can the earth labor but a day and a nation be born at once? For as soon as she was in labor,Zion gave birth to her children.
9 Shall I bring to a crisis and not bring on birth?says Jehovah.When it is I who cause the birth,shall I hinder it? says your God.
So we now can solve the riddle. The Davidic prophet was born before she was in labor, or before the tribulation began. But then the tribulation begins which is the labor of the woman in bringing forth her children. The labor lasts only one day and the nation is born at once. The exodus happens in one day at the beginning of the tribulation and the nation of Zion is created.
Is is not clear how long the righteous remnant will have to endure the tribulation when it begins, but it will not be long because the exodus happens "as soon as she was in labor". This is a great comfort to the truly righteous remnant in the church because they will escape the captivity, or most of it, and the cruel oppression which the rest of the church will suffer throughout the world, especially in this country.
Isaiah 33:14-19
14 The sinners in Zion are struck with fear;the godless are in the grip of trembling:Who among us can live through the devouring fire?Who among us can abide eternal burning?
15 They who conduct themselves righteouslyand are honest in word,who disdain extortionand stay their hand from taking bribes,who stop their ears at the mention of murder,who shut their eyes at the sight of wickedness.
16 They shall dwell on high;the impregnable cliffs are their fortress.Bread is provided them, their water is sure.
17 Your eyes shall behold the King in his glory and view the expanse of the earth. 18 You shall recount in your mind the terror:Where are those who conducted the census?Where are those who levied the tax?Where are the ones who appraised the towers?
19 The insolent people are not to be seen,a nation of incomprehensible speech,whose babbling tongue was unintelligible.
Isaiah describes the condition among the church members when the tribulation arrives. They are struck with fear and trembling. They are two dangers: the devouring fire, which is the kind of Assyria and the eternal burning which is the Lord. Either way there is death. But he gives some of the attributes of those who can escape.
Those who are righteous will escape, that is, those who are not idolaters (seeking bribes and filling their heads with TV violence, murder and other wickedness). They who have these attributes and one other that we will mention, will go on the exodus which is described here. They will be taken to the wilderness, which is the mountain country around here, where those on the exodus will be. The cliffs are impregnable and will be their fortress.
Perhaps the greatest blessing on the exodus will be the privilege of seeing the glorified Lord along with the Davidic prophet/king. The kind spoken of here is probably the Davidic king but elsewhere the Lord says he will be with the people and they will see him. During this trek, the people will be taught both by the Davidic prophet and by the Lord.
In order to be in the presence of the Lord, one has to be translated and indeed, those who go on the exodus will be translated and during the 42 months of the exodus, they will have their call and election made sure.
Last edited by I AM on March 31st, 2018, 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I AM
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2456
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
Strange,
If the servant was Christ, why would he say, he will send his servant.
Why wouldn't he just say I will come and do this work.
3 Nephi:21:
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
This is Christ speaking, who says the servant's life will be in his hand.
Christ says he will heal his servant.
He plainly says,"my servant". How can your servant be yourself?
I think it pretty much rules out Christ as the servant.
If the servant was Christ, why would he say, he will send his servant.
Why wouldn't he just say I will come and do this work.
3 Nephi:21:
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
This is Christ speaking, who says the servant's life will be in his hand.
Christ says he will heal his servant.
He plainly says,"my servant". How can your servant be yourself?
I think it pretty much rules out Christ as the servant.
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AI2.0
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3917
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
No, it doesn't, because Christ does speak as the Father at times. It's called Divine Investiture of Authority.I AM wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 2:22 am Strange,
If the servant was Christ, why would he say, he will send his servant.
Why wouldn't he just say I will come and do this work.
3 Nephi:21:
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
This is Christ speaking, who says the servant's life will be in his hand.
Christ says he will heal his servant.
He plainly says,"my servant". How can your servant be yourself?
I think it pretty much rules out Christ as the servant.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/04/the- ... n?lang=eng4. Jesus Christ the “Father” by Divine Investiture of Authority
A fourth reason for applying the title “Father” to Jesus Christ is found in the fact that in all His dealings with the human family Jesus the Son has represented and yet represents Elohim His Father in power and authority. This is true of Christ in His preexistent, antemortal, or unembodied state, in the which He was known as Jehovah; also during His embodiment in the flesh; and during His labors as a disembodied spirit in the realm of the dead; and since that period in His resurrected state. To the Jews He said, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30; see also John 17:11, 22); yet He declared, “My Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), and further, “I am come in my Father’s name” (John 5:43; see also John 10:25). The same truth was declared by Christ Himself to the Nephites (see 3 Ne. 20:35; 3 Ne. 28:10), and has been reaffirmed by revelation in the present dispensation (D&C 50:43). Thus the Father placed His name upon the Son; and Jesus Christ spoke and ministered in and through the Father’s name; and so far as power, authority, and godship are concerned His words and acts were and are those of the Father.
We read, by way of analogy, that God placed His name upon or in the angel who was assigned to special ministry unto the people of Israel during the exodus. Of that angel the Lord said, “Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him” (Ex. 23:21).
The ancient Apostle John was visited by an angel who ministered and spoke in the name of Jesus Christ. As we read, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John” (Rev. 1:1). John was about to worship the angelic being who spoke in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but was forbidden:
“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
“Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not; for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God” (Rev. 22:8–9).
And then the angel continued to speak as though he were the Lord Himself:
“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last” (Rev. 22:12–13).
The resurrected Lord, Jesus Christ, who had been exalted to the right hand of God His Father, had placed His name upon the angel sent to John, and the angel spoke in the first person, saying, “I come quickly,” “I am Alpha and Omega,” though he meant that Jesus Christ would come and that Jesus Christ was Alpha and Omega.
But, it should also be noted that the footnote for 3 Nephi 21:10 refers to D&C 135:1-3 and Joseph Smith jr. as being the marred servant.
And I disagree 100% with your false interpretation that the LDS church is going to 'mar' any true messenger/servant sent by God to them. I for one am getting pretty tired of the number of posters on this forum who are critical of the LDS church and it's members.
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Durzan
- The Lord's Trusty Maverick
- Posts: 3747
- Location: Standing between the Light and the Darkness.
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
Actually, its quite plausible that some members of the church (possibly even most of the membership, and even some of the leaders of the church, if the right --or rather wrong-- circumstances just so happen to be in place) would mar and even attempt to kill a true messenger of God. Joseph Smith himself said that many members back in his day would fly to pieces at even the suggestion of things that don't conform to their view, and he outright stated that they would lynch him if he told them who he truely was. In fact, I know of some arguments to be made that the mobsters who killed Joseph weren't all just apostates and anti-mormons... but since that is hearsay at best, I digress.
I am not prideful enough to fully discount the possibility that we would act the same as our ancestors/precursors, or act as the Pharisees would. I HOPE that we wouldn't act that way, but I wouldn't be suprised if my hope proved futile. Humans like lynching perceived heretics, both in the past and the future, and guess who they'd see as a Heretic or a threat to the church (regardless of if that threat was true or not)? You guessed it, a sincere prophet chosen of God who isn't part of the GA's, or one of them who steps out of line as guided by the Spirit. (Granted, this is a theoretical assumption).
If that happens, I sincerely doubt that if push comes to shove, that we'd act any different than our ancestors as a whole.
I am not prideful enough to fully discount the possibility that we would act the same as our ancestors/precursors, or act as the Pharisees would. I HOPE that we wouldn't act that way, but I wouldn't be suprised if my hope proved futile. Humans like lynching perceived heretics, both in the past and the future, and guess who they'd see as a Heretic or a threat to the church (regardless of if that threat was true or not)? You guessed it, a sincere prophet chosen of God who isn't part of the GA's, or one of them who steps out of line as guided by the Spirit. (Granted, this is a theoretical assumption).
If that happens, I sincerely doubt that if push comes to shove, that we'd act any different than our ancestors as a whole.
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abijah
- pleb in zion
- Posts: 2637
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
Yes Christ does speak in place of the Father at times. But in the verse He explicitly mentions "who am Jesus Christ" - why would the Father speak as the Son?AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 1:06 pmNo, it doesn't, because Christ does speak as the Father at times. It's called Divine Investiture of Authority.I AM wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 2:22 am
Strange,
If the servant was Christ, why would he say, he will send his servant.
Why wouldn't he just say I will come and do this work.
3 Nephi:21:
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
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AI2.0
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3917
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
Durzan wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 1:22 pm Actually, its quite plausible that some members of the church (possibly even most of the membership, and even some of the leaders of the church, if the right --or rather wrong-- circumstances just so happen to be in place) would mar and even attempt to kill a true messenger of God. Joseph Smith himself said that many members back in his day would fly to pieces at even the suggestion of things that don't conform to their view, and he outright stated that they would lynch him if he told them who he truely was. In fact, I know of some arguments to be made that the mobsters who killed Joseph weren't all just apostates and anti-mormons... but since that is hearsay at best, I digress.
I am not prideful enough to fully discount the possibility that we would act the same as our ancestors/precursors, or act as the Pharisees would. I HOPE that we wouldn't act that way, but I wouldn't be suprised if my hope proved futile. Humans like lynching perceived heretics, both in the past and the future, and guess who they'd see as a Heretic or a threat to the church (regardless of if that threat was true or not)? You guessed it, a sincere prophet chosen of God who isn't part of the GA's, or one of them who steps out of line as guided by the Spirit. (Granted, this is a theoretical assumption).
If that happens, I sincerely doubt that if push comes to shove, that we'd act any different than our ancestors as a whole.
I guess we'll just have to disagree. One reason I'm sensitive to this suggestion is that too many dissidents are pushing this view--that the LDS church is in apostasy or moving toward apostasy and they will reject or try to destroy the true messengers God sends. The Snuffer supporters are a good example--they think that Snuffer was a true messenger who was rejected by the LDS church.
I also know the suggestions that Joseph Smith was conspired against and killed by church members such as Brigham Young and Willard Richards--but I absolutely reject it; It's a horrible accusation against good, righteous men. And--If I did believe there was any truth to it, I'd have to leave the church, because I'd have to admit it was run by murderous conspirators. Luckily we can reject that vile accusation since it's a theory promoted by ex-LDS.
In this church, a true messenger will be known to the church, will be called/set apart by those with authority and will be recognized to hold stewardship. If they don't have those qualities, we ought to reject them, in other words, we refuse to listen to or follow them. While in earlier times, people did kill heretics, there's no reason to kill someone simply because we disagree with their message or believe they are a false prophet or teacher, and the LDS church does not promote that kind of immoral and criminal mob action.
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AI2.0
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3917
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
I didn't say he was speaking as the Father in that scripture--I simply used his post (where he referenced that scripture and asked a question) to bring up Divine Investiture of Authority as a reason why Jesus might say 'he will send his servant' and the servant is him. That was my only point.abijah wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 1:35 pmYes Christ does speak in place of the Father at times. But in the verse He explicitly mentions "who am Jesus Christ" - why would the Father speak as the Son?AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 1:06 pmNo, it doesn't, because Christ does speak as the Father at times. It's called Divine Investiture of Authority.I AM wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 2:22 am
Strange,
If the servant was Christ, why would he say, he will send his servant.
Why wouldn't he just say I will come and do this work.
3 Nephi:21:
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
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Alaris
- Captain of 144,000
- Posts: 7354
- Location: Present before the general assembly
- Contact:
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
Let the man have the point. It's an excellent point.AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 2:00 pmI didn't say he was speaking as the Father in that scripture--I simply used his post (where he referenced that scripture and asked a question) to bring up Divine Investiture of Authority as a reason why Jesus might say 'he will send his servant' and the servant is him. That was my only point.abijah wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 1:35 pmYes Christ does speak in place of the Father at times. But in the verse He explicitly mentions "who am Jesus Christ" - why would the Father speak as the Son?AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 1:06 pmNo, it doesn't, because Christ does speak as the Father at times. It's called Divine Investiture of Authority.I AM wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 2:22 am
Strange,
If the servant was Christ, why would he say, he will send his servant.
Why wouldn't he just say I will come and do this work.
3 Nephi:21:
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
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Alaris
- Captain of 144,000
- Posts: 7354
- Location: Present before the general assembly
- Contact:
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
Except there are other prophets who come to Ephraim. Our scriptures say that, so as nice as it will be to have them be announced in General Conference, it may not happen that way. This idea of blanket rejection is wrong. That's how the Jews saw the Carpenter's son. You've got to have your own oil in your own lamp to cast your own light in the darkness and not wait on our prophet to checkbox everything for you.AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 1:53 pmDurzan wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 1:22 pm Actually, its quite plausible that some members of the church (possibly even most of the membership, and even some of the leaders of the church, if the right --or rather wrong-- circumstances just so happen to be in place) would mar and even attempt to kill a true messenger of God. Joseph Smith himself said that many members back in his day would fly to pieces at even the suggestion of things that don't conform to their view, and he outright stated that they would lynch him if he told them who he truely was. In fact, I know of some arguments to be made that the mobsters who killed Joseph weren't all just apostates and anti-mormons... but since that is hearsay at best, I digress.
I am not prideful enough to fully discount the possibility that we would act the same as our ancestors/precursors, or act as the Pharisees would. I HOPE that we wouldn't act that way, but I wouldn't be suprised if my hope proved futile. Humans like lynching perceived heretics, both in the past and the future, and guess who they'd see as a Heretic or a threat to the church (regardless of if that threat was true or not)? You guessed it, a sincere prophet chosen of God who isn't part of the GA's, or one of them who steps out of line as guided by the Spirit. (Granted, this is a theoretical assumption).
If that happens, I sincerely doubt that if push comes to shove, that we'd act any different than our ancestors as a whole.
I guess we'll just have to disagree. One reason I'm sensitive to this suggestion is that too many dissidents are pushing this view--that the LDS church is in apostasy or moving toward apostasy and they will reject or try to destroy the true messengers God sends. The Snuffer supporters are a good example--they think that Snuffer was a true messenger who was rejected by the LDS church.
I also know the suggestions that Joseph Smith was conspired against and killed by church members such as Brigham Young and Willard Richards--but I absolutely reject it; It's a horrible accusation against good, righteous men. And--If I did believe there was any truth to it, I'd have to leave the church, because I'd have to admit it was run by murderous conspirators. Luckily we can reject that vile accusation since it's a theory promoted by ex-LDS.
In this church, a true messenger will be known to the church, will be called/set apart by those with authority and will be recognized to hold stewardship. If they don't have those qualities, we ought to reject them, in other words, we refuse to listen to or follow them. While in earlier times, people did kill heretics, there's no reason to kill someone simply because we disagree with their message or believe they are a false prophet or teacher, and the LDS church does not promote that kind of immoral and criminal mob action.
There are other scriptures out there as well. They will all eventually come together, but if you reject them based off your current model, then it will be all the harder to know which way to go if there should ever be - heaven forbid - a schism.
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AI2.0
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3917
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
I thought I was pretty clear in my comment, but it still seems to have been misread--again.alaris wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 2:02 pmLet the man have the point. It's an excellent point.AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 2:00 pmI didn't say he was speaking as the Father in that scripture--I simply used his post (where he referenced that scripture and asked a question) to bring up Divine Investiture of Authority as a reason why Jesus might say 'he will send his servant' and the servant is him. That was my only point.
I'll explain: His 'point' was not relevant, since I did not say that Jesus was speaking as the Father in that instance--there's no reason to think he would be. If you read the chapter it is Jesus talking about himself and he speaks of the Father as well, he's clearly speaking for himself. And, the 'servant' who's life is in the Lord's hand, who will be 'marred' in verse 10 has a footnote which refers the reader to D&C 135:1--which is Joseph Smith jr.. I'm inclined to agree with the footnote; that in this instance, this 'marred' servant is Joseph Smith jr and no one else.
I mentioned Divine Investiture of Authority because IAM made the comment ''If the servant was Christ, why would he say, he will send his servant.'? Good question--why would he? Well, because he sometimes does. I responded by pointing out this doctrine which means that sometimes Jesus speaks as the Father--does that make sense? I wasn't referring to that particular scripture, I was referring to why Jesus might sometimes speak about himself.
I hope this clears this up.
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AI2.0
- captain of 1,000
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Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
This is what Durzan said that I flatly disagreed with:alaris wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 2:07 pmExcept there are other prophets who come to Ephraim. Our scriptures say that, so as nice as it will be to have them be announced in General Conference, it may not happen that way. This idea of blanket rejection is wrong. That's how the Jews saw the Carpenter's son. You've got to have your own oil in your own lamp to cast your own light in the darkness and not wait on our prophet to checkbox everything for you.AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 1:53 pmDurzan wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 1:22 pm Actually, its quite plausible that some members of the church (possibly even most of the membership, and even some of the leaders of the church, if the right --or rather wrong-- circumstances just so happen to be in place) would mar and even attempt to kill a true messenger of God. Joseph Smith himself said that many members back in his day would fly to pieces at even the suggestion of things that don't conform to their view, and he outright stated that they would lynch him if he told them who he truely was. In fact, I know of some arguments to be made that the mobsters who killed Joseph weren't all just apostates and anti-mormons... but since that is hearsay at best, I digress.
I am not prideful enough to fully discount the possibility that we would act the same as our ancestors/precursors, or act as the Pharisees would. I HOPE that we wouldn't act that way, but I wouldn't be suprised if my hope proved futile. Humans like lynching perceived heretics, both in the past and the future, and guess who they'd see as a Heretic or a threat to the church (regardless of if that threat was true or not)? You guessed it, a sincere prophet chosen of God who isn't part of the GA's, or one of them who steps out of line as guided by the Spirit. (Granted, this is a theoretical assumption).
If that happens, I sincerely doubt that if push comes to shove, that we'd act any different than our ancestors as a whole.
I guess we'll just have to disagree. One reason I'm sensitive to this suggestion is that too many dissidents are pushing this view--that the LDS church is in apostasy or moving toward apostasy and they will reject or try to destroy the true messengers God sends. The Snuffer supporters are a good example--they think that Snuffer was a true messenger who was rejected by the LDS church.
I also know the suggestions that Joseph Smith was conspired against and killed by church members such as Brigham Young and Willard Richards--but I absolutely reject it; It's a horrible accusation against good, righteous men. And--If I did believe there was any truth to it, I'd have to leave the church, because I'd have to admit it was run by murderous conspirators. Luckily we can reject that vile accusation since it's a theory promoted by ex-LDS.
In this church, a true messenger will be known to the church, will be called/set apart by those with authority and will be recognized to hold stewardship. If they don't have those qualities, we ought to reject them, in other words, we refuse to listen to or follow them. While in earlier times, people did kill heretics, there's no reason to kill someone simply because we disagree with their message or believe they are a false prophet or teacher, and the LDS church does not promote that kind of immoral and criminal mob action.
There are other scriptures out there as well. They will all eventually come together, but if you reject them based off your current model, then it will be all the harder to know which way to go if there should ever be - heaven forbid - a schism.
Not only do I disagree, I'm shocked by this suggestion. I don't believe it plausible or possible that LDS members and some of their leaders would 'attempt to kill a true messenger of God', or even a false messenger for that matter. We're not killers--our religion does not promote this.Actually, its quite plausible that some members of the church (possibly even most of the membership, and even some of the leaders of the church, if the right --or rather wrong-- circumstances just so happen to be in place) would mar and even attempt to kill a true messenger of God.
And where in our scriptures does it say that prophets will come to us who are not those known to the church, called and set apart, with authority and stewardship? I think that's a false assumption on your part.
I reject the idea that we should be looking for prophets outside of church leadership to follow. The reason is that we've been warned to reject them--here's a concise, clear statement on this.
Elder Ballard from last conference--
[quote]Do not listen to those who have not been ordained and/or set apart to their Church calling and are not acknowledged by common consent of the members of the Church.10[/quote]
It's pretty cut and dried and he's only reiterating what is found in our Doctrine and Covenants. Now you are free to ignore his counsel, but please don't chide me for following it. The Jews in Jesus' day were looking for their Messiah and he came. We also look for our Messiah to come a second time. The difference--they hadn't had any prophets since Malachi, so they didn't have a true prophet to look to. We live in the time of the restoration of the Lord's true church on the earth and we have true prophets, whom he's called and they stand beside us, pointing the way to Christ, as was stated in General Conference today. To follow the prophet doesn't mean we don't have oil in our lamps and it doesn't mean we are slothful or foolish or that we'll somehow miss the true prophets--because WE ARE FOLLOWING THE TRUE PROPHETS.
There isn't going to be a schism, because the majority of the Saints understand this. But, there will be breakoffs--unfortunately, because some people are looking beyond the mark and will very likely be deceived by the false prophets and teachers we were warned would come.
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abijah
- pleb in zion
- Posts: 2637
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
just to be clear - my point was that there is a distinction between the “servant” and the narrator of the verse, who further designates himself as “Jesus”. So either two options:AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 4:43 pmI thought I was pretty clear in my comment, but it still seems to have been misread--again.alaris wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 2:02 pmLet the man have the point. It's an excellent point.AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 2:00 pmI didn't say he was speaking as the Father in that scripture--I simply used his post (where he referenced that scripture and asked a question) to bring up Divine Investiture of Authority as a reason why Jesus might say 'he will send his servant' and the servant is him. That was my only point.
I'll explain: His 'point' was not relevant, since I did not say that Jesus was speaking as the Father in that instance--there's no reason to think he would be. If you read the chapter it is Jesus talking about himself and he speaks of the Father as well, he's clearly speaking for himself. And, the 'servant' who's life is in the Lord's hand, who will be 'marred' in verse 10 has a footnote which refers the reader to D&C 135:1--which is Joseph Smith jr.. I'm inclined to agree with the footnote; that in this instance, this 'marred' servant is Joseph Smith jr and no one else.
I mentioned Divine Investiture of Authority because IAM made the comment ''If the servant was Christ, why would he say, he will send his servant.'? Good question--why would he? Well, because he sometimes does. I responded by pointing out this doctrine which means that sometimes Jesus speaks as the Father--does that make sense? I wasn't referring to that particular scripture, I was referring to why Jesus might sometimes speak about himself.
I hope this clears this up.
1) the narrator is Jesus and in terms of his servant, he is speaking of another, or
2) the servant is Jesus and the narrator named “Jesus” is actually the Father, a construct not possible from the text unless you claim the identity of the narrator shifts mid-dialogue.
You did not claim the Father was the narrator of the verses. I simply assumed this because that’s the only possible way divine investiture could at all be relevant here.
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I AM
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2456
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
A prophet is coming - the marred servant
Prophets can and do and will come from outside the church
Can Prophets Come from Outside Church Leadership?
http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/can-pr ... the-church
(some quotes from this article below)
But how would we fare if a prophet came to us today outside of the hierarchy of the Church? Would we learn from the mistakes of the past so as not to repeat them? Or would we side with the structure to which we have accustomed ourselves, thus removing the need for tackling hard questions such as determining if a person claiming a divine mandate, and chastising us for our wickedness, is in fact a prophet?
It’s instructive to note that these prophets are sent to God’s people because of general wickedness, and not necessarily corruption within church leadership. While in many cases the religious establishment had become rotten, this was not the experience of Samuel the Lamanite, whose mission came despite Nephi, and presumably others, righteously trying to do the very thing that Samuel was sent to do.
It’s irrelevant, then, whether leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are doing exactly what God wants them to or not. God can send—and perhaps has sent?—prophets outside of this organization. He would do so because of a general deviation from the path he wants us to follow. It has happened previously, so why not today? Are we so confident of our supposed righteousness, despite God himself noting that we are condemned, and our minds darkened?
--------------------------------
"When discussing prophets, we Latter-day Saints are quick to cite Amos 3:7, wherein we read, “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” But who was Amos, and what kind of prophet was he? He himself explains, to the king of Judah at the time: “I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycamore fruit. And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.” His message was likewise an excoriating, divine rebuke against church culture, criticizing tradition and ritual and calling for judgment and righteousness instead."
*** Remember - "Jesus Christ who himself was sent of God, outside of church hierarchy, from humble and unlikely circumstances, to call people to repentance. The existing establishment of religious authority, most notably the Pharisees, claimed to be the conduit to God. Thus, when the Conduit himself appeared before them, rebuking them with simplicity and boldness, they, following the pattern, desired to exile him."
end of article
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes prophets can and do and will come from outside the church.
There is to be great judgements and a cleansing of the saints before
we will be (allowed) to "assist" the remnants of Jacob, and House of Israel
who's land this has been given to; to build the New Jerusalem
and be numbered with them.
A Man like Moses, the Marred servant, One mighty and Strong,
the Branch, and I'm sure others.
A GREAT prophet is coming very soon.
I believe he will come not from within our church
and will have more power and authority than our church leaders.
He will have Christ's words. He will bring forth a record,
(the sealed portion of the (B of M) yet many (church and members)
will not believe him or receive his words., and they will be cut off from the Lord.
3 Nephi 21: 8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
This is not Joseph Smith, because this "servant", "shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him", Joseph Smith was killed.
Prophets can and do and will come from outside the church
Can Prophets Come from Outside Church Leadership?
http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/can-pr ... the-church
(some quotes from this article below)
But how would we fare if a prophet came to us today outside of the hierarchy of the Church? Would we learn from the mistakes of the past so as not to repeat them? Or would we side with the structure to which we have accustomed ourselves, thus removing the need for tackling hard questions such as determining if a person claiming a divine mandate, and chastising us for our wickedness, is in fact a prophet?
It’s instructive to note that these prophets are sent to God’s people because of general wickedness, and not necessarily corruption within church leadership. While in many cases the religious establishment had become rotten, this was not the experience of Samuel the Lamanite, whose mission came despite Nephi, and presumably others, righteously trying to do the very thing that Samuel was sent to do.
It’s irrelevant, then, whether leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are doing exactly what God wants them to or not. God can send—and perhaps has sent?—prophets outside of this organization. He would do so because of a general deviation from the path he wants us to follow. It has happened previously, so why not today? Are we so confident of our supposed righteousness, despite God himself noting that we are condemned, and our minds darkened?
--------------------------------
"When discussing prophets, we Latter-day Saints are quick to cite Amos 3:7, wherein we read, “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” But who was Amos, and what kind of prophet was he? He himself explains, to the king of Judah at the time: “I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycamore fruit. And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.” His message was likewise an excoriating, divine rebuke against church culture, criticizing tradition and ritual and calling for judgment and righteousness instead."
*** Remember - "Jesus Christ who himself was sent of God, outside of church hierarchy, from humble and unlikely circumstances, to call people to repentance. The existing establishment of religious authority, most notably the Pharisees, claimed to be the conduit to God. Thus, when the Conduit himself appeared before them, rebuking them with simplicity and boldness, they, following the pattern, desired to exile him."
end of article
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes prophets can and do and will come from outside the church.
There is to be great judgements and a cleansing of the saints before
we will be (allowed) to "assist" the remnants of Jacob, and House of Israel
who's land this has been given to; to build the New Jerusalem
and be numbered with them.
A Man like Moses, the Marred servant, One mighty and Strong,
the Branch, and I'm sure others.
A GREAT prophet is coming very soon.
I believe he will come not from within our church
and will have more power and authority than our church leaders.
He will have Christ's words. He will bring forth a record,
(the sealed portion of the (B of M) yet many (church and members)
will not believe him or receive his words., and they will be cut off from the Lord.
3 Nephi 21: 8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
This is not Joseph Smith, because this "servant", "shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him", Joseph Smith was killed.
-
Alaris
- Captain of 144,000
- Posts: 7354
- Location: Present before the general assembly
- Contact:
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
You cannot convince anyone who is not looking--certainly not those who are unlookingI AM wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 7:48 pm A prophet is coming - the marred servant
Prophets can and do and will come from outside the church
Can Prophets Come from Outside Church Leadership?
http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/can-pr ... the-church
(some quotes from this article below)
But how would we fare if a prophet came to us today outside of the hierarchy of the Church? Would we learn from the mistakes of the past so as not to repeat them? Or would we side with the structure to which we have accustomed ourselves, thus removing the need for tackling hard questions such as determining if a person claiming a divine mandate, and chastising us for our wickedness, is in fact a prophet?
It’s instructive to note that these prophets are sent to God’s people because of general wickedness, and not necessarily corruption within church leadership. While in many cases the religious establishment had become rotten, this was not the experience of Samuel the Lamanite, whose mission came despite Nephi, and presumably others, righteously trying to do the very thing that Samuel was sent to do.
It’s irrelevant, then, whether leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are doing exactly what God wants them to or not. God can send—and perhaps has sent?—prophets outside of this organization. He would do so because of a general deviation from the path he wants us to follow. It has happened previously, so why not today? Are we so confident of our supposed righteousness, despite God himself noting that we are condemned, and our minds darkened?
--------------------------------
"When discussing prophets, we Latter-day Saints are quick to cite Amos 3:7, wherein we read, “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” But who was Amos, and what kind of prophet was he? He himself explains, to the king of Judah at the time: “I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycamore fruit. And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.” His message was likewise an excoriating, divine rebuke against church culture, criticizing tradition and ritual and calling for judgment and righteousness instead."
*** Remember - "Jesus Christ who himself was sent of God, outside of church hierarchy, from humble and unlikely circumstances, to call people to repentance. The existing establishment of religious authority, most notably the Pharisees, claimed to be the conduit to God. Thus, when the Conduit himself appeared before them, rebuking them with simplicity and boldness, they, following the pattern, desired to exile him."
end of article
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes prophets can and do and will come from outside the church.
There is to be great judgements and a cleansing of the saints before
we will be (allowed) to "assist" the remnants of Jacob, and House of Israel
who's land this has been given to; to build the New Jerusalem
and be numbered with them.
A Man like Moses, the Marred servant, One mighty and Strong,
the Branch, and I'm sure others.
A GREAT prophet is coming very soon.
I believe he will come not from within our church
and will have more power and authority than our church leaders.
He will have Christ's words. He will bring forth a record,
(the sealed portion of the (B of M) yet many (church and members)
will not believe him or receive his words., and they will be cut off from the Lord.
3 Nephi 21: 8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
This is not Joseph Smith, because this "servant", "shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him", Joseph Smith was killed.
Verse 10 is so obviously not Joseph Smith - he limped until his last day and was scarred from tarring and feathering. Certainly there was no healing that demonstrated that the wisdom of the Lord is greater than the cunning of the devil. Those who are looking to disbelieve can always find reasons to disbelieve which is the beauty of the plan and agency. "We have enough" has everything to do with this - the attitude that the prophets will seek and find for us - the attitude that all the mysteries have already been unfolded, etc. etc.
We should have a substantive discussion about John and his relationship to the Davidic Servant. Read the last few chapters of Revelation and ponder on the angel who John bows to ... twice. John is 90+ years old here and this is near the end of the vision, of which we only have a partial record. What would cause John to bow to an angel?
John will testify before nations again ... but I submit to you he will be testifying of the Lord Jesus Christ and of His messenger of the covenant.
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I AM
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2456
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
The biggest problem with the church and it's members today is
they put too much emphasis and faith on men and "trusting in the arm of the flesh"
instead of in the Lord and His word (our scriptures).
“It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man” (Psalm 118:8).
“O LORD, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I
know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or
maketh flesh his arm” (2 Nephi 4:34).
“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men,
save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost” (2 Nephi 28:31).
“Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, that maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart
departeth from the Lord” (Jeremiah 17:5).
-------------------------------------------------------------------
A12.0 I have a serious question my friend.
Just HOW MUCH FAITH DO YOU HAVE IN OUR SCRIPTURES
AND HOW IMPORTANT ARE THEY TO YOU ? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because our scriptures tell a WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY
than what we've been taught and are led to believe.
If you don't believe me, I will show you in my next post.
We as a church and as members aren't quite as great
as we think we are, and are led to believe.
The scriptures indicate this EVERYWHERE,
but we are to proud to accept and believe this.
For this, judgements are coming and the Lord has said
"upon my house shall it begin"
D&C 112:24-26
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;
29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.
30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.
A well known LDS writer once wrote a
foreword in a book and said -
"This book might well be entitled
"What you always wanted to know about the Gospel
but were too lazy to find out."
"All answers are in the scriptures, but Latter-day Saints
do not read the scriptures."
Hugh Nibley
READ OUR SCRIPTURES !
All the answers are contained in them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be Wary of Man and His Words
Val Brinkerhoff
The Lord’s inspired servants do their best repeat God’s words as accurately as possible. They also point to Him
as the source of all light and truth. Imperfect and corrupt men, seeking the praise of the world and filthy lucre,
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. This paper addresses the false doctrine that men should be
lifted up as our source of light. Hereafter this paper is divided into three parts;
I. Statements by early LDS church leaders cautioning against putting trust in man;
II. Scriptures that support trusting God only; and
III. The misuse of God’s statement “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”
I. Early Teachings in the LDS Church about Trusting Men
Consistent with the Lord’s words and scripture, early LDS church leaders taught members to avoid trusting in
leaders, and said that to do so was to trust in “the arm of the flesh.” Apostle George Q. Cannon stated, “Do not,
brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at
some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He
will never fail us. When men and women depend upon God alone and trust in him alone, their faith will not be
shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside” (George Q. Cannon, DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]).
Apostle Charles Penrose, counselor to Pres. Brigham Young stated, “Our testimony does not depend upon
Joseph Smith; it does not depend upon Brigham Young; it does not depend upon John Taylor, or upon the
council of the Twelve Apostles, which is now the presiding quorum in the Church. I pin my faith to no man’s
sleeve; I am a believer in the Scripture which says, ‘Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his
arm’” (Charles Penrose, August 17, 1879, Journal of Discourses 20:295).
According to the Lord, those that heed every word of church leaders—whether they are from the Holy Ghost or
not—are described in D&C 76 as telestial spirits. Those of a celestial nature heed the word of God. “And the
glory of the telestial is one...For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they
who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and
some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither
the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. Last of all, these all are they who
will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes
a lie. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal
fire. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times,
when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work” (D&C 76:98-
106).
Those who follow men rather than God’s Spirit are accounted no better than liars, adulterers, and
whoremongers. Following our Lord’s word leads to the Tree of Life - eternal life. If a person focuses on a man
instead of searching for and receiving God's word in revelation and scripture, they will be damned to the telestial
kingdom.
Brigham Young stated, “Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the
influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and
pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned
as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods...They never can become Gods, nor be crowned
as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in
the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who
will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right,
though all mankind besides should take the opposite course” (Brigham Young, JD 1:312).
Pres. Young added, “What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of
this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for
themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security,
trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart
the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know
for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know,
themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation
continually” (Brigham Young, JD 9:150).
We are charged by God to validate the truthfulness of what church leaders say. The Holy Ghost is the only
source of truth that will never lead us astray. So said Brigham Young. “The First Presidency have of right a
great influence over this people; and if we should get out of the way and lead this people to destruction, what a
pity it would be! How can you know whether we lead you correctly or not? Can you know by any other power
than that of the Holy Ghost? I have uniformly exhorted the people to obtain this living witness, each for
themselves; then no man on earth can lead them astray” (Brigham Young, JD 6:100).
Nephi stated, “…whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would never
perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead
them away to destruction” (1 Nephi 15:24).
Sadly, the narrative embraced by too many today is that our leaders cannot lead us astray. This is well meaning
but incorrect teaching. We hear, “Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve
Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot” (M. Russell Ballard, October 2014 General Conference). We
are told to “stay in the boat” when there is troubled waters about us, that boat which is directed by men. Joseph
Smith’s last three dreams had him get out of a sinking boat two times and out of a burning barn a third. “Let me
remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be
led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is
pleasing to the Lord” (Bruce R. McConkie, “Our Relationship With the Lord,” BYU Devotional March 2,
1982). “Keep your eye on the Prophet, for the Lord will never permit his Prophet to lead this Church astray”
(Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1966, 123)
The Prophets of scripture and Joseph Smith tell us the opposite. “We have heard men who hold the priesthood
remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them (even) if they knew it
was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who
would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his
folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have
taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents,
they should do it without any questions. When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of
obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong
themselves” (Joseph Smith, Millennial Star, 14:38, pp.593-595).
Men are not saved through their allegiance to imperfect, fallen man, but through their diligent seeking of God
and following the Holy Ghost that results from it. True messengers sent of God and inspired servants of God on
Earth will always act in ways increasing our to God, not in ways that inflate their limited role as a middleman in
substitution of Christ and His Spirit as our mediator. True messengers do not seek for men to worship them, but
for men to worship God. They do not consider themselves more holy than those they are called to serve and do
not ask for special treatment – the praise of men and the filthy lucre often resulting from it. We read in the Book
of Mormon “...for thus saith the Lord; Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think
himself above another” (Mosiah 23:7).
II. Trust in God Scriptures
Hereafter is a small collection of scriptures that support looking to God, not man, for light. There are many
more. We begin with the exact, chiastic center scripture of the Bible, Psalm 118:8. It states:
“It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man” (Psalm 118:8).
“O LORD, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I
know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or
maketh flesh his arm” (2 Nephi 4:34).
“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men,
save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost” (2 Nephi 28:31).
“Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, that maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart
departeth from the Lord” (Jeremiah 17:5).
“For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for
themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water” (Jeremiah 2:13).
“Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;
Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king
of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come” (Isaiah 8:6-7).
“For behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God,
and despise his words – Ye you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported
you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble”
(D&C 3:7-8).
“For the leaders of the people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed” (2 Nephi 19:16).
“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5).
And now I command you, my servant Joseph, to repent and walk more uprightly before me, and to yield to the
persuasions of men no more” (D&C 5:21).
“Be strong and courageous, be not afraid nor dismayed for the king of Assyria, nor for all the multitude that is
with him: for there be more with us than with him: With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our
God to help us, and to fight our battles” (2 Chronicles 32:7-8).
“Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. They are
brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright. Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call”
(Psalm 20:7).
“For I will trust not in my bow, neither shall my sword save me. But thou hast saved us from our enemies, and
hast put them to shame that hated us” (Psalm 44:6-7).
“It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes” (Psalm 118:9; 146:3).
“Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a
covering, but not of my Spirit, that they may add sin to sin: That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not
asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt”
(Isaiah 30:1-2; Romans 8:1).
“Their land is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands” (Isaiah 2:8).
III. It is the Same: God’s Words versus Man’s Words
Good men and inspired servants sent of the Lord do their best to quote God’s words as accurately as possible,
not adding to or taking away anything from them. These servants point to God as our source light and truth, not
themselves. Contrast this imperfect and corrupt men who seek the praise of the world and financial support from
others. God defines this as “priestcraft” (2 Ne. 26:29). Such live on the accolades of men and filthy lucre. They
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. Our Savior stated that He is the light we are look to, and
the things He does as our example (3 Ne. 18:24).
Thus Saith the Lord God’s words are powerful and important, much more so than those of any man. God
often introduces His word by using some variation of the phrase “Thus saith the Lord.” They alert us that we
should pay close attention to what follows. The Doctrine and Covenants has many such phrases. They include,
“Hearken unto me, saith the Lord your God" (Section 51); “Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word”
(Section 13); “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your redeemer, the Great I AM” (section 29); "Listen to
the voice of the Lord your God, Even Alpha and Omega" (section 35), and so on.
Some things we read are not God’s words. An example of a so-called "revelation" from God in the Doctrine and
Covenants that did not come from Him is portions of Section 20. Elder James. E. Talmage read its first few
verses, believing that they were the words of Christ, or at least those given to Joseph Smith by Him. He believed
they were also tied to the Lord’s birth date. With this assumption, Elder Talmage added his own statements
about this probability in His book Jesus the Christ, stating that April 6th was most likely the Lord’s birthday.
This book statement is believed to have started our April 6th tradition for Christ’s birthday. In the Joseph Smith
Paper’s project, we have since learned that the words in the first few verses of D&C 20 are not those of the
Lord, nor those of a sent angel from His throne, nor those of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Instead, they are added
words of John Whitmer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time, used to introduce the reader to the rest of the section.
Elder Talmage’s mistaken belief that they were the Lord’s words has led to a now fully entrenched LDS
“tradition” that they also reveal our Lord’s birthdate (see the paper, “The LDS April 6th Tradition”).
God’s Words versus Man’s Words The introductory paragraph to D&C 20 (above it) states that it is a
“revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet,” yet this introduction, along with the first few verses of
Section 20 were written by a committee that compiled that particular edition of the scriptures in 1981. Nowhere
in this section does our Lord Jesus Christ identify these words as coming from Him.
We now know, thanks largely to the Joseph Smith Papers project, that section 20 is a hodgepodge of statements
thrown together by as many as six different early Church leaders, who did so in a hurry to get it ready for
publication. Joseph Smith the Prophet may have been among them, but the original document also shows other
“voices” that are not our Lord’s. This is especially true of the first few verses of D&C 20, which we now know
were written by John Whtimer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time. Additional verses in Section 20 may be
written by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, or Sidney Rigdon, among others.
More importantly, many today assume these “servants” and others (like our General Authorities) are the
“servants” God referred to in verse 38 of Section 1 of the D&C, where the Lord states, “Whether it be by mine
own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Many times they are not the same. We should
understand the context of this statement by God, and what He means by “his servants.” The voices in writing in
D&C 20, and many others today are not "the same voice” as God's, nor those of His chosen “angels” – those
sent from His throne who are His “servants” sent to quote Him directly, doing so accurately - word for word.
Thus, we should also be careful in how we use the word “servant” today and how we interpret D&C 1:38. We
should pay close attention to those servants sent of God who quote God’s words accurately. Statements by men
are much less important, not matter how well-meaning or eloquent they might be.
Does this mean that section 20 should be ignored? No. It contains many patterns for governing the operations of
the church. But some of those patterns were created by men (some believe they suggest a Campbellite
influence), and not necessarily the pattern laid out by God Himself for the Church.
Take for example, section 27, a revelation given in the voice of one of God's servants – this time an angel. One
day Joseph set out to buy some wine for the sacrament. On the way he was stopped by an angel, who warned
him he was about to purchase wine from his enemies, and that he might want to think twice about doing so in
case it was poisoned. The angel didn’t warn Joseph in his own words, adding His own commentary, but instead
saying, “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your redeemer, whose word is quick and
powerful.” From there the angel quoted God directly, delivering the message he was sent to deliver, accurately
and without embellishment. He recited it word for word just as if it had come from the mouth of God Himself.
He then departed. That is what it really means in D&C 1:38 when God said, “Whether it be by mine own voice,
or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”
In the October General Conferences of 2010 and 2014 a leader stood and quoted this verse of scripture, implying
that what followed would be the same as the Lord’s own words. It is was the Lord’s words, quoted exactly as He
gave them, then “they are the same.” Certainly there were edifying words spoken by these leaders, but this verse
in D&C 1 doesn’t necessarily mean the words of leaders past, present, or future are the words of Christ, unless
they are exactly His, or if they speaking under the power of the Holy Ghost (who is one with God and bears of
the truth of all things). Only then is one speaking with “the tongue of angels.”
We often place too much trust in “the arm of flesh.” This is one of the biggest problems in our current culture.
Where possible, we should verify all things said or written as God’s word by way of the Spirit. We read in 3
Nephi 19:8 about the Twelve Apostles at Bountiful and how they taught most effectively. “And when they had
ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken – nothing varying from the words which Jesus had
spoken – behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.” Here His servants spoke the
same words as Jesus, the people knowing that they were His. Then is the meaning of D&C 1:38 fulfilled,
“Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Note verses 36 through 38 of
D&C 1 hereafter. The whole section is the Lord’s introduction to His own words that are to go forth to the world. He states:
37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in
them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the
earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the
voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth
abideth forever and ever. Amen.
Note the Lord is counseling us to search these commandments - the ones in the revelations of this particular
book – that ARE HIS! No reference is made in this section to anything a Church leader might one day say in
the future. This is important in understanding the next verse, "What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken, and I
excuse not myself." They are His words, not mans. Our Lord is God. He makes no apologies for the precise
predictions He has made. Note that God is speaking in the past tense. What He has spoken He has spoken. This
is not a reference about what a future leader of the Church may say. He's referencing His own words here, and
His words alone. "And though the heavens and the earth may pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall
all be fulfilled." If our powerful God said it, then we can be sure it will happen.
The key question is, "what is the same" as His words, what is the same as His voice? He is talking about His
word as revealed in this book – the Doctrine and Covenants where His prophecies, His predictions, and the
judgments He assures us will come to pass are found. The servants He is referring to are those men to whom
these particular revelations in the D&C were given to and recorded by. This list includes Joseph and Hyrum
Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, John, David, and Peter Whitmer, etc. We should not miss the clear
reference in them in verse 6 - to "my servants" - the very ones instructed by Him to publish these words to the world.
Thus, in Section 1 of the D&C, His introduction to His words that follow, God is telling His people that all the
prophecies foretold in the sections that follow this introduction will come to pass. Why - because He spoke it,
"and I excuse not myself.” His words are quick and powerful and will be fulfilled! This is the context of the
Lord’s words, “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” He is not saying
that future leaders words are or will be His. He is saying that the words He gave past prophets in the Bible, Book
of Mormon, and those given Joseph Smith and others in the D&C - relative to coming judgments in our day -
will be fulfilled, but He gave them to these men. They are His words, given in revelation! They are not prepared
talks by men, not matter how good and well-intended they may be. If the talks are given under the power of the
Holy Ghost, then they are comparable to His words, but not necessarily the same.
Last Thoughts on Section 27 In the original Book of Commandments, Section 27 was 13 verses shorter
than it is today, ending in verse 5, with the statement, “for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the
vine with you, on the earth, and with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.” We learn in the
Joseph Smith Papers project that Oliver Cowdery added the extra 13 verses beyond verse 5 – those of God’s
angel, starting with a statement he says was made by Moroni. We see this in the later part of verse 5 when the
angel seems to suddenly shift gears, stating, "I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with
Moroni...”
Nothing Oliver Cowdery added in section 27 has the same status as that of, “by my voice or the voice of my
servant.” The angel appearing to Joseph Smith spoke for God, providing nothing more or less than His words.
Note the Lord’s words regarding the words He gave His chosen servant Joseph Smith to give us. God states,
“Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall
give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me” (D&C 21:4). An important qualification
for a true messenger is that the word of God they carry be as brief as possible, that it originate from God, and
that it is accurate.
Idolatry It is important that we quote God and angels often and accurately. And it is important that we
quote God more often than men – the arm of flesh, in our talks to one another. We have replaced too many of
God’s words with those of men. Too many talks quote General Authorities over and over rather than the words
of God. Leaders often quote each other. Sometimes they quote themselves from past talks. God has instead
spoken to us! His words are powerful. We should reference His words more frequently, doing so accurately. A
good second choice is to quote those chosen messengers that quote Him word for word, those who are “sent
ones” from His presence and throne. When a servant, chosen and sent by God states, “thus saith the Lord,” we
should pay close attention to what follows, then confirm that they are indeed the Lord’s words. We should then
follow them. In this way we can avoid idolatry and deception.
The author is grateful to Robert Smith and Rock Waterman for their insights and statements
utilized in this paper.
they put too much emphasis and faith on men and "trusting in the arm of the flesh"
instead of in the Lord and His word (our scriptures).
“It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man” (Psalm 118:8).
“O LORD, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I
know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or
maketh flesh his arm” (2 Nephi 4:34).
“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men,
save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost” (2 Nephi 28:31).
“Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, that maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart
departeth from the Lord” (Jeremiah 17:5).
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A12.0 I have a serious question my friend.
Just HOW MUCH FAITH DO YOU HAVE IN OUR SCRIPTURES
AND HOW IMPORTANT ARE THEY TO YOU ? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because our scriptures tell a WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY
than what we've been taught and are led to believe.
If you don't believe me, I will show you in my next post.
We as a church and as members aren't quite as great
as we think we are, and are led to believe.
The scriptures indicate this EVERYWHERE,
but we are to proud to accept and believe this.
For this, judgements are coming and the Lord has said
"upon my house shall it begin"
D&C 112:24-26
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.
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D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;
29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.
30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.
A well known LDS writer once wrote a
foreword in a book and said -
"This book might well be entitled
"What you always wanted to know about the Gospel
but were too lazy to find out."
"All answers are in the scriptures, but Latter-day Saints
do not read the scriptures."
Hugh Nibley
READ OUR SCRIPTURES !
All the answers are contained in them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be Wary of Man and His Words
Val Brinkerhoff
The Lord’s inspired servants do their best repeat God’s words as accurately as possible. They also point to Him
as the source of all light and truth. Imperfect and corrupt men, seeking the praise of the world and filthy lucre,
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. This paper addresses the false doctrine that men should be
lifted up as our source of light. Hereafter this paper is divided into three parts;
I. Statements by early LDS church leaders cautioning against putting trust in man;
II. Scriptures that support trusting God only; and
III. The misuse of God’s statement “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”
I. Early Teachings in the LDS Church about Trusting Men
Consistent with the Lord’s words and scripture, early LDS church leaders taught members to avoid trusting in
leaders, and said that to do so was to trust in “the arm of the flesh.” Apostle George Q. Cannon stated, “Do not,
brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at
some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He
will never fail us. When men and women depend upon God alone and trust in him alone, their faith will not be
shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside” (George Q. Cannon, DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]).
Apostle Charles Penrose, counselor to Pres. Brigham Young stated, “Our testimony does not depend upon
Joseph Smith; it does not depend upon Brigham Young; it does not depend upon John Taylor, or upon the
council of the Twelve Apostles, which is now the presiding quorum in the Church. I pin my faith to no man’s
sleeve; I am a believer in the Scripture which says, ‘Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his
arm’” (Charles Penrose, August 17, 1879, Journal of Discourses 20:295).
According to the Lord, those that heed every word of church leaders—whether they are from the Holy Ghost or
not—are described in D&C 76 as telestial spirits. Those of a celestial nature heed the word of God. “And the
glory of the telestial is one...For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they
who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and
some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither
the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. Last of all, these all are they who
will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes
a lie. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal
fire. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times,
when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work” (D&C 76:98-
106).
Those who follow men rather than God’s Spirit are accounted no better than liars, adulterers, and
whoremongers. Following our Lord’s word leads to the Tree of Life - eternal life. If a person focuses on a man
instead of searching for and receiving God's word in revelation and scripture, they will be damned to the telestial
kingdom.
Brigham Young stated, “Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the
influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and
pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned
as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods...They never can become Gods, nor be crowned
as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in
the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who
will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right,
though all mankind besides should take the opposite course” (Brigham Young, JD 1:312).
Pres. Young added, “What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of
this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for
themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security,
trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart
the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know
for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know,
themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation
continually” (Brigham Young, JD 9:150).
We are charged by God to validate the truthfulness of what church leaders say. The Holy Ghost is the only
source of truth that will never lead us astray. So said Brigham Young. “The First Presidency have of right a
great influence over this people; and if we should get out of the way and lead this people to destruction, what a
pity it would be! How can you know whether we lead you correctly or not? Can you know by any other power
than that of the Holy Ghost? I have uniformly exhorted the people to obtain this living witness, each for
themselves; then no man on earth can lead them astray” (Brigham Young, JD 6:100).
Nephi stated, “…whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would never
perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead
them away to destruction” (1 Nephi 15:24).
Sadly, the narrative embraced by too many today is that our leaders cannot lead us astray. This is well meaning
but incorrect teaching. We hear, “Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve
Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot” (M. Russell Ballard, October 2014 General Conference). We
are told to “stay in the boat” when there is troubled waters about us, that boat which is directed by men. Joseph
Smith’s last three dreams had him get out of a sinking boat two times and out of a burning barn a third. “Let me
remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be
led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is
pleasing to the Lord” (Bruce R. McConkie, “Our Relationship With the Lord,” BYU Devotional March 2,
1982). “Keep your eye on the Prophet, for the Lord will never permit his Prophet to lead this Church astray”
(Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1966, 123)
The Prophets of scripture and Joseph Smith tell us the opposite. “We have heard men who hold the priesthood
remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them (even) if they knew it
was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who
would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his
folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have
taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents,
they should do it without any questions. When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of
obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong
themselves” (Joseph Smith, Millennial Star, 14:38, pp.593-595).
Men are not saved through their allegiance to imperfect, fallen man, but through their diligent seeking of God
and following the Holy Ghost that results from it. True messengers sent of God and inspired servants of God on
Earth will always act in ways increasing our to God, not in ways that inflate their limited role as a middleman in
substitution of Christ and His Spirit as our mediator. True messengers do not seek for men to worship them, but
for men to worship God. They do not consider themselves more holy than those they are called to serve and do
not ask for special treatment – the praise of men and the filthy lucre often resulting from it. We read in the Book
of Mormon “...for thus saith the Lord; Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think
himself above another” (Mosiah 23:7).
II. Trust in God Scriptures
Hereafter is a small collection of scriptures that support looking to God, not man, for light. There are many
more. We begin with the exact, chiastic center scripture of the Bible, Psalm 118:8. It states:
“It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man” (Psalm 118:8).
“O LORD, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I
know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or
maketh flesh his arm” (2 Nephi 4:34).
“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men,
save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost” (2 Nephi 28:31).
“Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, that maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart
departeth from the Lord” (Jeremiah 17:5).
“For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for
themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water” (Jeremiah 2:13).
“Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;
Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king
of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come” (Isaiah 8:6-7).
“For behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God,
and despise his words – Ye you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported
you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble”
(D&C 3:7-8).
“For the leaders of the people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed” (2 Nephi 19:16).
“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5).
And now I command you, my servant Joseph, to repent and walk more uprightly before me, and to yield to the
persuasions of men no more” (D&C 5:21).
“Be strong and courageous, be not afraid nor dismayed for the king of Assyria, nor for all the multitude that is
with him: for there be more with us than with him: With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our
God to help us, and to fight our battles” (2 Chronicles 32:7-8).
“Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. They are
brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright. Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call”
(Psalm 20:7).
“For I will trust not in my bow, neither shall my sword save me. But thou hast saved us from our enemies, and
hast put them to shame that hated us” (Psalm 44:6-7).
“It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes” (Psalm 118:9; 146:3).
“Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a
covering, but not of my Spirit, that they may add sin to sin: That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not
asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt”
(Isaiah 30:1-2; Romans 8:1).
“Their land is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands” (Isaiah 2:8).
III. It is the Same: God’s Words versus Man’s Words
Good men and inspired servants sent of the Lord do their best to quote God’s words as accurately as possible,
not adding to or taking away anything from them. These servants point to God as our source light and truth, not
themselves. Contrast this imperfect and corrupt men who seek the praise of the world and financial support from
others. God defines this as “priestcraft” (2 Ne. 26:29). Such live on the accolades of men and filthy lucre. They
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. Our Savior stated that He is the light we are look to, and
the things He does as our example (3 Ne. 18:24).
Thus Saith the Lord God’s words are powerful and important, much more so than those of any man. God
often introduces His word by using some variation of the phrase “Thus saith the Lord.” They alert us that we
should pay close attention to what follows. The Doctrine and Covenants has many such phrases. They include,
“Hearken unto me, saith the Lord your God" (Section 51); “Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word”
(Section 13); “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your redeemer, the Great I AM” (section 29); "Listen to
the voice of the Lord your God, Even Alpha and Omega" (section 35), and so on.
Some things we read are not God’s words. An example of a so-called "revelation" from God in the Doctrine and
Covenants that did not come from Him is portions of Section 20. Elder James. E. Talmage read its first few
verses, believing that they were the words of Christ, or at least those given to Joseph Smith by Him. He believed
they were also tied to the Lord’s birth date. With this assumption, Elder Talmage added his own statements
about this probability in His book Jesus the Christ, stating that April 6th was most likely the Lord’s birthday.
This book statement is believed to have started our April 6th tradition for Christ’s birthday. In the Joseph Smith
Paper’s project, we have since learned that the words in the first few verses of D&C 20 are not those of the
Lord, nor those of a sent angel from His throne, nor those of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Instead, they are added
words of John Whitmer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time, used to introduce the reader to the rest of the section.
Elder Talmage’s mistaken belief that they were the Lord’s words has led to a now fully entrenched LDS
“tradition” that they also reveal our Lord’s birthdate (see the paper, “The LDS April 6th Tradition”).
God’s Words versus Man’s Words The introductory paragraph to D&C 20 (above it) states that it is a
“revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet,” yet this introduction, along with the first few verses of
Section 20 were written by a committee that compiled that particular edition of the scriptures in 1981. Nowhere
in this section does our Lord Jesus Christ identify these words as coming from Him.
We now know, thanks largely to the Joseph Smith Papers project, that section 20 is a hodgepodge of statements
thrown together by as many as six different early Church leaders, who did so in a hurry to get it ready for
publication. Joseph Smith the Prophet may have been among them, but the original document also shows other
“voices” that are not our Lord’s. This is especially true of the first few verses of D&C 20, which we now know
were written by John Whtimer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time. Additional verses in Section 20 may be
written by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, or Sidney Rigdon, among others.
More importantly, many today assume these “servants” and others (like our General Authorities) are the
“servants” God referred to in verse 38 of Section 1 of the D&C, where the Lord states, “Whether it be by mine
own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Many times they are not the same. We should
understand the context of this statement by God, and what He means by “his servants.” The voices in writing in
D&C 20, and many others today are not "the same voice” as God's, nor those of His chosen “angels” – those
sent from His throne who are His “servants” sent to quote Him directly, doing so accurately - word for word.
Thus, we should also be careful in how we use the word “servant” today and how we interpret D&C 1:38. We
should pay close attention to those servants sent of God who quote God’s words accurately. Statements by men
are much less important, not matter how well-meaning or eloquent they might be.
Does this mean that section 20 should be ignored? No. It contains many patterns for governing the operations of
the church. But some of those patterns were created by men (some believe they suggest a Campbellite
influence), and not necessarily the pattern laid out by God Himself for the Church.
Take for example, section 27, a revelation given in the voice of one of God's servants – this time an angel. One
day Joseph set out to buy some wine for the sacrament. On the way he was stopped by an angel, who warned
him he was about to purchase wine from his enemies, and that he might want to think twice about doing so in
case it was poisoned. The angel didn’t warn Joseph in his own words, adding His own commentary, but instead
saying, “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your redeemer, whose word is quick and
powerful.” From there the angel quoted God directly, delivering the message he was sent to deliver, accurately
and without embellishment. He recited it word for word just as if it had come from the mouth of God Himself.
He then departed. That is what it really means in D&C 1:38 when God said, “Whether it be by mine own voice,
or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”
In the October General Conferences of 2010 and 2014 a leader stood and quoted this verse of scripture, implying
that what followed would be the same as the Lord’s own words. It is was the Lord’s words, quoted exactly as He
gave them, then “they are the same.” Certainly there were edifying words spoken by these leaders, but this verse
in D&C 1 doesn’t necessarily mean the words of leaders past, present, or future are the words of Christ, unless
they are exactly His, or if they speaking under the power of the Holy Ghost (who is one with God and bears of
the truth of all things). Only then is one speaking with “the tongue of angels.”
We often place too much trust in “the arm of flesh.” This is one of the biggest problems in our current culture.
Where possible, we should verify all things said or written as God’s word by way of the Spirit. We read in 3
Nephi 19:8 about the Twelve Apostles at Bountiful and how they taught most effectively. “And when they had
ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken – nothing varying from the words which Jesus had
spoken – behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.” Here His servants spoke the
same words as Jesus, the people knowing that they were His. Then is the meaning of D&C 1:38 fulfilled,
“Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Note verses 36 through 38 of
D&C 1 hereafter. The whole section is the Lord’s introduction to His own words that are to go forth to the world. He states:
37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in
them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the
earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the
voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth
abideth forever and ever. Amen.
Note the Lord is counseling us to search these commandments - the ones in the revelations of this particular
book – that ARE HIS! No reference is made in this section to anything a Church leader might one day say in
the future. This is important in understanding the next verse, "What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken, and I
excuse not myself." They are His words, not mans. Our Lord is God. He makes no apologies for the precise
predictions He has made. Note that God is speaking in the past tense. What He has spoken He has spoken. This
is not a reference about what a future leader of the Church may say. He's referencing His own words here, and
His words alone. "And though the heavens and the earth may pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall
all be fulfilled." If our powerful God said it, then we can be sure it will happen.
The key question is, "what is the same" as His words, what is the same as His voice? He is talking about His
word as revealed in this book – the Doctrine and Covenants where His prophecies, His predictions, and the
judgments He assures us will come to pass are found. The servants He is referring to are those men to whom
these particular revelations in the D&C were given to and recorded by. This list includes Joseph and Hyrum
Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, John, David, and Peter Whitmer, etc. We should not miss the clear
reference in them in verse 6 - to "my servants" - the very ones instructed by Him to publish these words to the world.
Thus, in Section 1 of the D&C, His introduction to His words that follow, God is telling His people that all the
prophecies foretold in the sections that follow this introduction will come to pass. Why - because He spoke it,
"and I excuse not myself.” His words are quick and powerful and will be fulfilled! This is the context of the
Lord’s words, “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” He is not saying
that future leaders words are or will be His. He is saying that the words He gave past prophets in the Bible, Book
of Mormon, and those given Joseph Smith and others in the D&C - relative to coming judgments in our day -
will be fulfilled, but He gave them to these men. They are His words, given in revelation! They are not prepared
talks by men, not matter how good and well-intended they may be. If the talks are given under the power of the
Holy Ghost, then they are comparable to His words, but not necessarily the same.
Last Thoughts on Section 27 In the original Book of Commandments, Section 27 was 13 verses shorter
than it is today, ending in verse 5, with the statement, “for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the
vine with you, on the earth, and with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.” We learn in the
Joseph Smith Papers project that Oliver Cowdery added the extra 13 verses beyond verse 5 – those of God’s
angel, starting with a statement he says was made by Moroni. We see this in the later part of verse 5 when the
angel seems to suddenly shift gears, stating, "I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with
Moroni...”
Nothing Oliver Cowdery added in section 27 has the same status as that of, “by my voice or the voice of my
servant.” The angel appearing to Joseph Smith spoke for God, providing nothing more or less than His words.
Note the Lord’s words regarding the words He gave His chosen servant Joseph Smith to give us. God states,
“Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall
give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me” (D&C 21:4). An important qualification
for a true messenger is that the word of God they carry be as brief as possible, that it originate from God, and
that it is accurate.
Idolatry It is important that we quote God and angels often and accurately. And it is important that we
quote God more often than men – the arm of flesh, in our talks to one another. We have replaced too many of
God’s words with those of men. Too many talks quote General Authorities over and over rather than the words
of God. Leaders often quote each other. Sometimes they quote themselves from past talks. God has instead
spoken to us! His words are powerful. We should reference His words more frequently, doing so accurately. A
good second choice is to quote those chosen messengers that quote Him word for word, those who are “sent
ones” from His presence and throne. When a servant, chosen and sent by God states, “thus saith the Lord,” we
should pay close attention to what follows, then confirm that they are indeed the Lord’s words. We should then
follow them. In this way we can avoid idolatry and deception.
The author is grateful to Robert Smith and Rock Waterman for their insights and statements
utilized in this paper.
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dafty
- captain of 100
- Posts: 428
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
Hi Alaris, I meant to have asked this question last time you mentioned ROOT bowing to ROD, but for a reason I didn't. Now, since you mentioning it again I willalaris wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 8:15 pm
We should have a substantive discussion about John and his relationship to the Davidic Servant. Read the last few chapters of Revelation and ponder on the angel who John bows to ... twice. John is 90+ years old here and this is near the end of the vision, of which we only have a partial record. What would cause John to bow to an angel...
Using your logic, correct me if I'm wrong, John is 90+ at the time of the vision, highly educated in the gospel and knowledgeable with regards to the mysteries thereof. He wouldn't make a simple mistake of falling flat/bowing before just an angel, after all he's far more spiritually advanced than laman or Lemuel for example. Therefore, you conclude he knows exactly who the Angel is and His status in hierarchy of Heaven, and bows to him accordingly. No problem with these conclusions, but now we're coming to a part that I can't wrap my tiny brain around.
You have mentioned in your previous posts that the 2 trees from Zacharaiah's vision, representing 2 witness, are root and rod. If they are made equal in the vision, given same power and authority, why would John/ROOT bow to ROD/The Angel?
Secondly, if 1 of the trees is ascending to the level of the 7 candlesticks/Archangels/Holy ones, John/Root is right up there and is knocking at that door, and so surely have no reason to bow to The Angel?
Thanks for your consideration my friend and Happy Easter
x-
Alaris
- Captain of 144,000
- Posts: 7354
- Location: Present before the general assembly
- Contact:
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
Happy Easter Dafty. If I was correct about Zechariah and Revelation 11 and the root and the rod, then there are really only two considerations here.dafty wrote: ↑April 1st, 2018, 1:34 amHi Alaris, I meant to have asked this question last time you mentioned ROOT bowing to ROD, but for a reason I didn't. Now, since you mentioning it again I willalaris wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 8:15 pm
We should have a substantive discussion about John and his relationship to the Davidic Servant. Read the last few chapters of Revelation and ponder on the angel who John bows to ... twice. John is 90+ years old here and this is near the end of the vision, of which we only have a partial record. What would cause John to bow to an angel...
Using your logic, correct me if I'm wrong, John is 90+ at the time of the vision, highly educated in the gospel and knowledgeable with regards to the mysteries thereof. He wouldn't make a simple mistake of falling flat/bowing before just an angel, after all he's far more spiritually advanced than laman or Lemuel for example. Therefore, you conclude he knows exactly who the Angel is and His status in hierarchy of Heaven, and bows to him accordingly. No problem with these conclusions, but now we're coming to a part that I can't wrap my tiny brain around.
You have mentioned in your previous posts that the 2 trees from Zacharaiah's vision, representing 2 witness, are root and rod. If they are made equal in the vision, given same power and authority, why would John/ROOT bow to ROD/The Angel?
Secondly, if 1 of the trees is ascending to the level of the 7 candlesticks/Archangels/Holy ones, John/Root is right up there and is knocking at that door, and so surely have no reason to bow to The Angel?
Thanks for your consideration my friend and Happy Easterx
The lesser one is John likely didn't have a full revelation of what we consider to be the sealed portion until then... So despite his age and how far into the revelation he was, he was still likely wowed to a degree.
The greater one is he was witnessing the exaltation of his fellow servant from conditional servant to becoming an unconditional son with the first crown of godhood. Seeing that and making that connection for the first time, he was probably both shaken and showing his friend reverence. Having not overcome yet, his angel friend basically said, nope not yet. Stand up brother. This is getting awkward.
There may be more to it than that but John wasn't witnessing his own crown and exaltation. Does his come in the next world? That's a great question!!
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abijah
- pleb in zion
- Posts: 2637
Re: The Davidic servant is NOT Jesus Christ
So did Joshua.alaris wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 8:15 pm
We should have a substantive discussion about John and his relationship to the Davidic Servant. Read the last few chapters of Revelation and ponder on the angel who John bows to ... twice. John is 90+ years old here and this is near the end of the vision, of which we only have a partial record. What would cause John to bow to an angel?
He that has ears to hear let him hear.13 ¶ And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15 And the captain of the Lord’s host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
Joshua 5:13-15 emphasis added
