[Deleted]

[Z2100]

Some excerpts from the Wikipedia entry of Great and abominable church:
--------------------------------------------

The major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in the Book of Mormon's First Book of Nephi are:

1. It persecutes, tortures, and slays the saints of God (see 1 Ne. 13:5);
2. It seeks wealth and luxury (see 1 Ne. 13:7–8);
3. It is characterized by sexual immorality (see 1 Ne. 13:7);
4. It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures (see 1 Ne. 13:26–29);
5. It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people (see 1 Ne. 14:11); and
6. Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations that it incites against the Saints wage war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed (see 1 Ne. 22:13–14).

The great and abominable church is often equated with Babylon. Five of the six characteristics identified in 1 Nephi are also attributed to Babylon in the Book of Revelation:

1. Babylon is drunk with the blood of the saints, the martyrs of Jesus, and the prophets (see Rev. 17:6; Rev. 18:24);
2. She is known for her enjoyment of great wealth and luxury (see Rev. 17:4; Rev. 18:3, 11–16);
3. She is characterized by wanton sexual immorality (see Rev. 17:1–2, 5);
4. She has dominion over all nations (see Rev. 17:15, 18; Rev. 18:3, 23–24); and
5. Her fate is to be consumed by the very kings who, because of her deceptions, have made war on the Lamb (see Rev. 17:14–16; Rev. 18:23).

According to an article by Stephen E. Robinson in an official magazine of LDS Church, "no single known historical church, denomination, or set of believers meets all the requirements for the great and abominable church. ... Rather, the role of Babylon has been played by many different agencies, ideologies, and churches in many different times." Regarding the popular identification of the Roman Catholic Church with the great and abominable church, Robinson states:

"More often, some have suggested that the Roman Catholic church might be the great and abominable church of Nephi 13. This is also untenable, primarily because Roman Catholicism as we know it did not yet exist when the crimes described by Nephi were being committed. In fact, the term Roman Catholic only makes sense after A.D. 1054 when it is used to distinguish the Western, Latin-speaking Orthodox church that followed the bishop of Rome from the Eastern, Greek-speaking Orthodox church that followed the bishop of Constantinople. ... Even if we use the term Catholic for the church Constantine made the state religion in A.D. 313, the New Testament as we know it was already widely circulating. That is, the plain and precious parts had already been removed. The notion of shifty-eyed medieval monks rewriting the scriptures is unfair and bigoted. We owe those monks a debt of gratitude that anything was saved at all."

More generally, Robinson notes: "Some Latter-day Saints have erred in believing that some specific denomination, to the exclusion of all others, has since the beginning of time been the great and abominable church. This is dangerous, for many will then want to know which it is, and an antagonistic relationship with that denomination will inevitably follow."

Rather than identifying an existing denomination or organization, Robinson hypothesizes that the "hellenized Christianity" of the first and second centuries is the most likely identity of Nephi's "great and abominable church".

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Robertson is correct on nearly all points. His hypothesis, though, that hellenized Christianity of the first and second centuries is the most likely identity of Nephi's great and abominable church is incorrect.

Here's another excerpt from the article:

-------------------------------------

The first edition of LDS Church general authority Bruce R. McConkie's Mormon Doctrine stated: "It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church." As McConkie's book became popular, the belief that the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church "became embedded in popular [Mormon] belief, despite the fact that this idea was never sanctioned or preached over the pulpit."

McConkie's book became controversial with the leadership of the LDS Church, and he was pressed into making significant changes in the second edition. The second edition of Mormon Doctrine removed the reference to the Catholic Church, and instead stated: "The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God."

-----------------------------------

Like Robertson, both of McConkie's hypothesis are likewise incorrect. None of these things, not one church, not all churches together, not false ideas and philosophies of men, taken together, or false scientific dogma, or anything else, is the great and abominable church. All these things are mere shadows and types of the actual great and abominable church which will form at some point in the future.

Thus, the truth is that the great and abominable church is, as yet, non-existent. It doesn't form until after the Josephite comes out of his box. It forms as a response to him and his works. Everyone who looks at 1 Nephi 13 and 14 and thinks, "Some of these things have happened already!" is in error. None of those things have happened, yet.

Nephi's vision (in those chapters) begins with the formation of the great and abominable church. If there is no great and abominable church, then the other things spoken of that occur after its formation haven't happened, yet, either.

I think I already know that the "Great and Abominable Church" is just another word for Babylon.

[gclayjr]

LDSAnarchist,

Is this controversial in the LDS church today? I thought that this was cleared up years ago, and today it is generally known that the Great and abominable Church is not a specific denomination, but a generic term for those who follow Satan.

Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

LDSAnarchist,

Is this controversial in the LDS church today? I thought that this was cleared up years ago, and today it is generally known that the Great and abominable Church is not a specific denomination, but a generic term for those who follow Satan.

Regards,

George Clay

I take it that you didn't read his post completely?

-Finrock

[gardener4life]

Are you trying to make a statement or did you have a specific question about this idea of the great and abominable church?

I would trust the scriptures over this topic. Use the scriptures to look for getting beyond man's philosophy and try to understand what the Lord has in mind teaching about it.

[simpleton]

If there is no " great and abominable church of the devil" (meaning a specific organization) then you could likewise say there is no " church of the Lamb of God" (as a specific organization).
In 1st Nephi 14 the "great whore" or " mother of abominations" or "church of the devil" , to me are one and the same, likewise the "church of the Lamb of God" is one and the same. It is actually not complicated at all and Bruce r Mconkie was right originally, and, Bruce is by no means the originator of that belief. I have read many early day missionary journals and experiences from the simple elders to the apostles. And there is a common thread through out their journals ( but by no means common or often but rather just a few references scattered here and there ) that they believed that the Catholic Church was that "great and abominable church" of the devil and all the breakoffs were or are the harlot daughter's. The trouble today is that we are and have to be " politically correct", ( well at least that is what our church public relations department figures) . Also the difference between todays wimpy missionaries and the early missionaries is the plain fact that today's young men are coddled like babies and givin purse and script and food and life insurance so the spirit abideth not, whereas the early LDS preachers of the eternal Gospel went abroad without purse and script and wholly depended upon God and His Spirit for all of those things and when they opened their mouths and preached what the actual Spirit of God put into their minds at that moment. Sorry but that is how it is to today and also how it was back then...
So again back to the early preaching and those early day journals and testimonies, they most definitely preached that the "Great and Abominable Church of the devil" was most definitely the Catholic Church, and to me the foundation of that church was formed at the great apostasy. Or you could say at the murdering of the original 12 apostles and of the saints... let's examine 1st Nephi 14 , it is so very plain who he is talking about. A child can understand it.....
1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks—

2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded.

3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.

4 For behold, this is according to the captivity of the devil, and also according to the justice of God, upon all those who will work wickedness and abomination before him.

5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repenteth not must perish.

6 Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.

7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.

8 And it came to pass that when the angel had spoken these words, he said unto me: Rememberest thou the covenants of the Father unto the house of Israel? I said unto him, Yea.

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

If you think that the Catholic Church along with all of her break off harlot daughters does not have dominion over all the earth then you do not understand the above scriptures. And do not try and tell me about the heathen nations as they are not culpable under that prediction/prophecy.
If the Church of the Lamb of God is a specific organization, likewise so is the Church of the Devil. But whereas the Church of the Lamb is singular, the devil has many church's but all under the grand whore master of them all. Think about it in this parallel, " the straight and narrow path, God's Singular church, and the broad and wide path, strange roads and strange paths = the Devils Church/church's.
Answer me these few questions:
1: Why do the nations heads of state (including ours) attend the funeral of the Pope of Rome? ( How many attended Monsons? And for that matter any of the last 16?)
2: Why is the Vatican literally the smallest recognized nation on earth?
3: Why ( if you do not believe the context of question #2) does the Vatican have literally politically internationally recognized embassies/ambassadors/consulates... ( and if you do not believe me, Google it)
4: And if you do not believe they have power or that those consulates/embassies have power or sovereign recognition then why ( for example) did president Manuel Noriega from Panama when President Reagan illegally invaded that country and kidnapped him, did Manuel flee to the Catholic embassy and ask for asylum?
5: And for a few days he had asylum under the protection of the "Holy See" and the " most powerful nation on earth"(United States) would not step inside:

Encircling the Apostolic Nunciature of the Holy See Edit
On the fifth day of the American invasion, Noriega phoned Monsignor Laboa at the Apostolic Nunciature and explained he would appreciate being able to seek sanctuary within; noting that he would otherwise have to flee to the countryside and wage a guerrilla war. Given only ten minutes to decide, Laboa said he did not confer with the Vatican, but agreed to allow Noriega to enter the Nunciature grounds — although from the very start, he confessed that he deceived Noriega, noting that he believed that Panamanian politics necessitated that his own role be to convince Noriega to surrender to the American army, not to grant him asylum within Vatican territory.[1] Laboa later confided he was "surprised and dismayed" that Noriega would choose to seek refuge with the Church.[4]

Noriega fled to the Apostolic Nunciature, the de facto embassy of Holy See, and took refuge there with four others, Lieut. Colonel Nivaldo Madrinan, head of Panama's secret police; Captain Eliecer Gaitan, who led the special force charged with protecting Noriega; Belgica de Castillo, the former head of the immigration department, and her husband Carlos Castillo.[5][6][7] He turned over the majority of his weapons, and requested sanctuary within.[5] He spent his time in a "stark" room with no air conditioning or television, reading the Bible for the duration of his stay.[5]

American soldiers set up a perimeter outside this building, as any direct action against the embassy itself would have violated international law and enraged Roman Catholics worldwide.

United States Secretary of State James Baker wrote to the Vatican, insisting that "this is an exception to diplomatic immunity. We've indicted him as a drug dealer...you must understand that having lost American lives to restore democracy in Panama, we cannot allow Noriega to go to any other country than the United States."[2]

Joaquin Navarro-Valls, speaking on behalf of the Vatican, clarified that the strong messages left by American diplomats and military leaders would not be obeyed and Noriega would not be turned over. Navarro-Valls clarified that Pope John Paul II had not spoken on the issue except to lament the deaths caused by "absurd imprudence."[8]

The U.S. Army turned to psychological warfare, blaring rock music at "deafening levels," gunning the engines of armored vehicles against the Nunciature's fence, and setting fire to a neighboring field and bulldozing it to create a "helicopter landing zone."[8][9] Reportedly the song "I Fought The Law" by The Clash was played repeatedly along with "You Shook Me All Night Long" by AC/DC; [10], "Welcome to the Jungle" by Guns N' Roses;[11] another song in the line-up was "Too Old To Rock 'n' Roll: Too Young to Die" by Jethro Tull.[12]

On December 27, the psychological warfare was turned over to the control of the 4th Psychological Operations Group of Special Operations Command.[8] The Holy See complained to President George H. W. Bush about actions of the American soldiers surrounding the embassy, and after three days, the rock music was stopped.[5]

On December 30, the Vatican clarified that it did not believe Noriega had asylum, "but [was] a person in refuge."[8] Meanwhile, Monsignor Laboa petitioned both Panama and the Vatican to agree to extend the embassy property to include another building where he had Noriega's four companions moved to prevent them from encouraging Noriega to stay under Vatican sanctuary, allowing him to convince Noriega to leave.[1] A friend of Laboa later told the UPI that Laboa wanted to "go to work on Noriega, weave a sort of spell around him until he gives in...

Surrender:
After ten days of demoralization, Monsignor Jose Sebastian Laboa told Noriega that he had no choice but to surrender to the American soldiers at the front gate. Time magazine later noted that Monsignor Laboa was not entirely honest with Noriega, falsely telling him that no country in the world was willing to grant him refuge.[5] Monsignor Laboa had also written to the US Army, granting his permission for them to storm the property if they believed his life was in danger.[5] Eventually, Monsignor Laboa said that if Noriega did not surrender to the Americans, the Papal staff would evacuate the building, move into a Catholic high school and declare it the new embassy — leaving Noriega alone in the abandoned building to face the Americans without any benefit of Vatican sanctuary.[13][14]

Noriega asked permission to phone his wife and three daughters, who had taken refuge in the Cuban embassy; he ensured they would be flown to exile in the Dominican Republic if he surrendered.[5]

On January 3, Noriega attended Holy Mass in the Nuncio's chapel and took communion; where Laboa's homily was about the thief on the cross who in one moment asked God to change his life, and reportedly brought tears to Noriega's eyes.[8]

After Mass, Noriega retired to his room where he wrote two letters, one to his wife informing her "I go now on an adventure," and the other thanking the Pope and stressing that he believed himself innocent and that he had always acted in the best interests of the Panamanian people and requesting the Pope's prayers.[8]

Noriega dressed in his tan uniform, receiving permission to bring the Nuncio's bible with him,[5] and went outside into the dark night with three priests who walked with him the fifty paces to the front gate; when he reached the front gate, a "gigantic, enormous" American soldier lunged at Noriega, described as "a broken man,"[5] and a number of other soldiers also tackled him to the ground and began searching his effects. His wrists were taped behind his back and he was bundled into a waiting American helicopter which took him to Howard Air Force Base.[8]

Monsignor Laboa later told the press that he was proud at having "outwitted" Noriega and convincing him to surrender himself to the Americans, noting "I'm better at psychology...

I only post that long historical story to give just a tiny example of the power of the CATHOLIC HOLY SEE/VATICAN..

I also have been to the Vatican and toured it. And even went to mass while in the Vatican.

One of the early inspired missionary experiences that I remember reading ages ago that really struck me was ( can't remember at the moment who) an LDS missionary who was having a spirited discussion? Argument? With a Christian preacher over authority or priesthood authority that the Christian preacher ( Methodist? Baptist? Presbyterian?) Figured that he had , and the LDS Missionary said how can the daughter be any better than the Mother!!!
Another story I remember reading is a vision an LDS fellow had, (if I remember correctly)in San Francisco in the 1800s where he witnessed the Catholic Church/great whore taking away the plain and precious parts of The Bible and also in this same vision he saw in the archives or in the library of the Vatican other scriptures/books that were under lock and key...

So ultimately LDSAnarchest may I kindly and most emphatically disagree with you and others in regards to the above matter.

Read verse 10 especially ...

Now here is something that we can get a pretty good time frame upon: again 1st Nephi 14:

18 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!

19 And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe.

20 And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

21 Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been.

22 And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.

23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men....

Condensed version: Apostle John writes, it is plain and true and precious, it is written after Christs time, but before Johns translation, Simultaneous formation of the " Great and Abominable Church". ( which I believe that formation started even before all of the apostles were murdered, and it was formed upon the Great apostasy of God's/Christs church/ foundation) ...The new testament speaks of the "creeping in" of wolves in sheep's clothing..


I'll stop for now and am not looking for a contentious war of words like almost every single forum subject turns into but just simply giving another point of view, ( but of course what I verily believe to be true) as this is one of many subjects I have studied all my life, but nevertheless may God continue to grant us freedom of conscious and speech wherein we do not contend viciously one with another...

[simpleton]

Another thing I would like to mention: What would it be like if our church could have identical international political diplomatic immunity complete with consulates!!!! The same as the Great Whore!!!!
Well I am sorry to say that the "Horn" made "war" with our ancestors saints (late 1800s) and prevailed. And why do you think that was? Polygamy? Nope, well I'll grant that it was part of the equation, but, just a small part. The main thing the " Horn" I/E Great Whore of all the earth ( which most definitely influenced the "Horn" through her "Harlot daughters") was after was THE KINGDOM OF GOD/COUNCIL OF FIFTY/ and the Religious Political UNITY of THE SAINTS...

[marc]

D&C 88:94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it...

[Sarah]

If there is no " great and abominable church of the devil" (meaning a specific organization) then you could likewise say there is no " church of the Lamb of God" (as a specific organization).
In 1st Nephi 14 the "great whore" or " mother of abominations" or "church of the devil" , to me are one and the same, likewise the "church of the Lamb of God" is one and the same. It is actually not complicated at all and Bruce r Mconkie was right originally, and, Bruce is by no means the originator of that belief. I have read many early day missionary journals and experiences from the simple elders to the apostles. And there is a common thread through out their journals ( but by no means common or often but rather just a few references scattered here and there ) that they believed that the Catholic Church was that "great and abominable church" of the devil and all the breakoffs were or are the harlot daughter's. The trouble today is that we are and have to be " politically correct", ( well at least that is what our church public relations department figures) . Also the difference between todays wimpy missionaries and the early missionaries is the plain fact that today's young men are coddled like babies and givin purse and script and food and life insurance so the spirit abideth not, whereas the early LDS preachers of the eternal Gospel went abroad without purse and script and wholly depended upon God and His Spirit for all of those things and when they opened their mouths and preached what the actual Spirit of God put into their minds at that moment. Sorry but that is how it is to today and also how it was back then...
So again back to the early preaching and those early day journals and testimonies, they most definitely preached that the "Great and Abominable Church of the devil" was most definitely the Catholic Church, and to me the foundation of that church was formed at the great apostasy. Or you could say at the murdering of the original 12 apostles and of the saints... let's examine 1st Nephi 14 , it is so very plain who he is talking about. A child can understand it.....
1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks—

2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded.

3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.

4 For behold, this is according to the captivity of the devil, and also according to the justice of God, upon all those who will work wickedness and abomination before him.

5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repenteth not must perish.

6 Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.

7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.

8 And it came to pass that when the angel had spoken these words, he said unto me: Rememberest thou the covenants of the Father unto the house of Israel? I said unto him, Yea.

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

If you think that the Catholic Church along with all of her break off harlot daughters does not have dominion over all the earth then you do not understand the above scriptures. And do not try and tell me about the heathen nations as they are not culpable under that prediction/prophecy.
If the Church of the Lamb of God is a specific organization, likewise so is the Church of the Devil. But whereas the Church of the Lamb is singular, the devil has many church's but all under the grand whore master of them all. Think about it in this parallel, " the straight and narrow path, God's Singular church, and the broad and wide path, strange roads and strange paths = the Devils Church/church's.
Answer me these few questions:
1: Why do the nations heads of state (including ours) attend the funeral of the Pope of Rome? ( How many attended Monsons? And for that matter any of the last 16?)
2: Why is the Vatican literally the smallest recognized nation on earth?
3: Why ( if you do not believe the context of question #2) does the Vatican have literally politically internationally recognized embassies/ambassadors/consulates... ( and if you do not believe me, Google it)
4: And if you do not believe they have power or that those consulates/embassies have power or sovereign recognition then why ( for example) did president Manuel Noriega from Panama when President Reagan illegally invaded that country and kidnapped him, did Manuel flee to the Catholic embassy and ask for asylum?
5: And for a few days he had asylum under the protection of the "Holy See" and the " most powerful nation on earth"(United States) would not step inside:

Encircling the Apostolic Nunciature of the Holy See Edit
On the fifth day of the American invasion, Noriega phoned Monsignor Laboa at the Apostolic Nunciature and explained he would appreciate being able to seek sanctuary within; noting that he would otherwise have to flee to the countryside and wage a guerrilla war. Given only ten minutes to decide, Laboa said he did not confer with the Vatican, but agreed to allow Noriega to enter the Nunciature grounds — although from the very start, he confessed that he deceived Noriega, noting that he believed that Panamanian politics necessitated that his own role be to convince Noriega to surrender to the American army, not to grant him asylum within Vatican territory.[1] Laboa later confided he was "surprised and dismayed" that Noriega would choose to seek refuge with the Church.[4]

Noriega fled to the Apostolic Nunciature, the de facto embassy of Holy See, and took refuge there with four others, Lieut. Colonel Nivaldo Madrinan, head of Panama's secret police; Captain Eliecer Gaitan, who led the special force charged with protecting Noriega; Belgica de Castillo, the former head of the immigration department, and her husband Carlos Castillo.[5][6][7] He turned over the majority of his weapons, and requested sanctuary within.[5] He spent his time in a "stark" room with no air conditioning or television, reading the Bible for the duration of his stay.[5]

American soldiers set up a perimeter outside this building, as any direct action against the embassy itself would have violated international law and enraged Roman Catholics worldwide.

United States Secretary of State James Baker wrote to the Vatican, insisting that "this is an exception to diplomatic immunity. We've indicted him as a drug dealer...you must understand that having lost American lives to restore democracy in Panama, we cannot allow Noriega to go to any other country than the United States."[2]

Joaquin Navarro-Valls, speaking on behalf of the Vatican, clarified that the strong messages left by American diplomats and military leaders would not be obeyed and Noriega would not be turned over. Navarro-Valls clarified that Pope John Paul II had not spoken on the issue except to lament the deaths caused by "absurd imprudence."[8]

The U.S. Army turned to psychological warfare, blaring rock music at "deafening levels," gunning the engines of armored vehicles against the Nunciature's fence, and setting fire to a neighboring field and bulldozing it to create a "helicopter landing zone."[8][9] Reportedly the song "I Fought The Law" by The Clash was played repeatedly along with "You Shook Me All Night Long" by AC/DC; [10], "Welcome to the Jungle" by Guns N' Roses;[11] another song in the line-up was "Too Old To Rock 'n' Roll: Too Young to Die" by Jethro Tull.[12]

On December 27, the psychological warfare was turned over to the control of the 4th Psychological Operations Group of Special Operations Command.[8] The Holy See complained to President George H. W. Bush about actions of the American soldiers surrounding the embassy, and after three days, the rock music was stopped.[5]

On December 30, the Vatican clarified that it did not believe Noriega had asylum, "but [was] a person in refuge."[8] Meanwhile, Monsignor Laboa petitioned both Panama and the Vatican to agree to extend the embassy property to include another building where he had Noriega's four companions moved to prevent them from encouraging Noriega to stay under Vatican sanctuary, allowing him to convince Noriega to leave.[1] A friend of Laboa later told the UPI that Laboa wanted to "go to work on Noriega, weave a sort of spell around him until he gives in...

Surrender:
After ten days of demoralization, Monsignor Jose Sebastian Laboa told Noriega that he had no choice but to surrender to the American soldiers at the front gate. Time magazine later noted that Monsignor Laboa was not entirely honest with Noriega, falsely telling him that no country in the world was willing to grant him refuge.[5] Monsignor Laboa had also written to the US Army, granting his permission for them to storm the property if they believed his life was in danger.[5] Eventually, Monsignor Laboa said that if Noriega did not surrender to the Americans, the Papal staff would evacuate the building, move into a Catholic high school and declare it the new embassy — leaving Noriega alone in the abandoned building to face the Americans without any benefit of Vatican sanctuary.[13][14]

Noriega asked permission to phone his wife and three daughters, who had taken refuge in the Cuban embassy; he ensured they would be flown to exile in the Dominican Republic if he surrendered.[5]

On January 3, Noriega attended Holy Mass in the Nuncio's chapel and took communion; where Laboa's homily was about the thief on the cross who in one moment asked God to change his life, and reportedly brought tears to Noriega's eyes.[8]

After Mass, Noriega retired to his room where he wrote two letters, one to his wife informing her "I go now on an adventure," and the other thanking the Pope and stressing that he believed himself innocent and that he had always acted in the best interests of the Panamanian people and requesting the Pope's prayers.[8]

Noriega dressed in his tan uniform, receiving permission to bring the Nuncio's bible with him,[5] and went outside into the dark night with three priests who walked with him the fifty paces to the front gate; when he reached the front gate, a "gigantic, enormous" American soldier lunged at Noriega, described as "a broken man,"[5] and a number of other soldiers also tackled him to the ground and began searching his effects. His wrists were taped behind his back and he was bundled into a waiting American helicopter which took him to Howard Air Force Base.[8]

Monsignor Laboa later told the press that he was proud at having "outwitted" Noriega and convincing him to surrender himself to the Americans, noting "I'm better at psychology...

I only post that long historical story to give just a tiny example of the power of the CATHOLIC HOLY SEE/VATICAN..

I also have been to the Vatican and toured it. And even went to mass while in the Vatican.

One of the early inspired missionary experiences that I remember reading ages ago that really struck me was ( can't remember at the moment who) an LDS missionary who was having a spirited discussion? Argument? With a Christian preacher over authority or priesthood authority that the Christian preacher ( Methodist? Baptist? Presbyterian?) Figured that he had , and the LDS Missionary said how can the daughter be any better than the Mother!!!
Another story I remember reading is a vision an LDS fellow had, (if I remember correctly)in San Francisco in the 1800s where he witnessed the Catholic Church/great whore taking away the plain and precious parts of The Bible and also in this same vision he saw in the archives or in the library of the Vatican other scriptures/books that were under lock and key...

So ultimately LDSAnarchest may I kindly and most emphatically disagree with you and others in regards to the above matter.

Read verse 10 especially ...

Now here is something that we can get a pretty good time frame upon: again 1st Nephi 14:

18 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!

19 And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe.

20 And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

21 Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been.

22 And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.

23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men....

Condensed version: Apostle John writes, it is plain and true and precious, it is written after Christs time, but before Johns translation, Simultaneous formation of the " Great and Abominable Church". ( which I believe that formation started even before all of the apostles were murdered, and it was formed upon the Great apostasy of God's/Christs church/ foundation) ...The new testament speaks of the "creeping in" of wolves in sheep's clothing..


I'll stop for now and am not looking for a contentious war of words like almost every single forum subject turns into but just simply giving another point of view, ( but of course what I verily believe to be true) as this is one of many subjects I have studied all my life, but nevertheless may God continue to grant us freedom of conscious and speech wherein we do not contend viciously one with another...

I appreciate your view because I've been trying to give myself a crash course in this subject, and I've come to the same conclusion. Do you have any good articles/videos or other sources that explain this concept in a thorough way?

As I'm doing chores I like to listen and look for youtube videos to watch about how the "New World Order" ties into Rome, the Catholic Church, Jesuits, Free Masons, communism and of course American and European politics. I feel like everyone is describing one piece of the puzzle, but doesn't have the complete picture.

[inho]

I do not necessarily agree with LDS Anarchist, but it seems that some who commented here did not read the OP properly through.
In my opinion, Anarchist's main point was:

Thus, the truth is that the great and abominable church is, as yet, non-existent. It doesn't form until after the Josephite comes out of his box. It forms as a response to him and his works. Everyone who looks at 1 Nephi 13 and 14 and thinks, "Some of these things have happened already!" is in error. None of those things have happened, yet.

Nephi's vision (in those chapters) begins with the formation of the great and abominable church. If there is no great and abominable church, then the other things spoken of that occur after its formation haven't happened, yet, either.

Maybe those of you who have studied this topic more could comment on that statement.

[Silver]

There has always been a great and abominable church. It is the organization, in whatever form, but usually government, which uses unrighteous dominion and a myriad of sinful behavior to persecute good people and block the work of God. Do we think Satan has just been sitting around twiddling his thumbs until the final trials and tribulations?

[EmmaLee]

There has always been a great and abominable church. It is the organization, in whatever form, but usually government, which uses unrighteous dominion and a myriad of sinful behavior to persecute good people and block the work of God. Do we think Satan has just been sitting around twiddling his thumbs until the final trials and tribulations?

Agreed. This is an excellent book on the subject -

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Abominable ... +the+devil

[abijah]

Armies and navies, false priests and tyrants.

There is great power born in the enmity between good and evil, light and dark. Power the devil has always sought to usurp. After all, his greatest aspiration and chief desire is to be heaven’s birthright son, to be the Christ. He that has ears to hear let him hear.

[Silver]

There has always been a great and abominable church. It is the organization, in whatever form, but usually government, which uses unrighteous dominion and a myriad of sinful behavior to persecute good people and block the work of God. Do we think Satan has just been sitting around twiddling his thumbs until the final trials and tribulations?

Agreed. This is an excellent book on the subject -

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Abominable ... +the+devil

Yep, by H. Verlan Andersen, the first GA called by President Benson. If only the Saints would read his books, all of them, and take action.

[Kingdom of ZION]

I appreciate your view because I've been trying to give myself a crash course in this subject, and I've come to the same conclusion. Do you have any good articles/videos or other sources that explain this concept in a thorough way?

As I'm doing chores I like to listen and look for youtube videos to watch about how the "New World Order" ties into Rome, the Catholic Church, Jesuits, Free Masons, communism and of course American and European politics. I feel like everyone is describing one piece of the puzzle, but doesn't have the complete picture. This is the latest video I've stumbled upon that I like that I've only gotten half way through. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoEBlrYy6fY

I like the research that EndTimeMinistries.com has done. They prove that 'Mystery Babylon' is the Holy Roman Church, that the False Prophet will be the last Pope, and by one prophecy from the Catholic Church, the 112th Pope which they say is the current Pope. Other traditions say he will be a black Pope, which means a Jesuit. This is the first Jesuit that they have ever had that became the Pope. He is a avowed Socialist (Communist), and One World Government supporter.

We have so few of years, it is easy to see all the pieces on the board now except three! The Kingdom of Yah established, the great anti-Christ, and the Ten Horn Kingdom.

[lundbaek]

I agree with the statement by Silver that "There has always been a great and abominable church. It is the organization, in whatever form, but usually government, which uses unrighteous dominion and a myriad of sinful behavior to persecute good people and block the work of God. Do we think Satan has just been sitting around twiddling his thumbs until the final trials and tribulations?" Only a government with military and police power fits the bill. "Prostituted government" is a term used by H. Verlan Andersen. I view it as the globalist/world government/United Nations conspiracy.

[simpleton]

All the speculation in the world does not change the very plain and easy to understand description of the timing of the formation of that Great and Abominable Church of the Devil in 1 Nephi 13:

1 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld many nations and kingdoms.

2 And the angel said unto me: What beholdest thou? And I said: I behold many nations and kingdoms.

3 And he said unto me: These are the nations and kingdoms of the Gentiles.

4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.

5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.

8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.

9 And also for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of God, and bring them down into captivity.

10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.

11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.

15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.

17 And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

18 And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle.

19 And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations.

20 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land; and I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them.

21 And the angel said unto me: Knowest thou the meaning of the book?

22 And I said unto him: I know not.

23 And he said: Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. And I, Nephi, beheld it; and he said unto me: The book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles.

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

30 Nevertheless, thou beholdest that the Gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity, and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations, upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands, which is the land that the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance; wherefore, thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed, which are among thy brethren.

31 Neither will he suffer that the Gentiles shall destroy the seed of thy brethren.

32 Neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that awful state of blindness, which thou beholdest they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, whose formation thou hast seen.

33 Wherefore saith the Lamb of God: I will be merciful unto the Gentiles, unto the visiting of the remnant of the house of Israel in great judgment.

34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.

35 For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after thy seed shall be destroyed, and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb.

36 And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation.

37 And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb; and whoso shall publish peace, yea, tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be.

38 And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from the Gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren.

39 And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.

40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

42 And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.

So we can see very plainly that according to the above chapter that this Church (not a government) is formed after the time of the 12 apostles of the Lamb, or, if you like at least after they write the gospels. Then before it goes forth unto the gentiles, the Great Whore removes the plain and precious parts. So that Church that Nephi sees is practically dated (as far as when it was formed) and that church continues on to the end when it is finally destroyed. And it is formed amongst the nations of the gentiles way before America was discovered....

[Durzan]

If there is a physical entity that we can call the Great and Abominable church... I would hazard a guess that it wouldn't be one specific church (like the catholic church, although I can see that the Catholic Church at times past probably fit the definition quite well).

Rather, I would instead postulate that the Great and Abominable Church is a secret organization of Satanists that has power and influence in multiple churches and governments. IE. it is what most people would call the Illuminati... assuming that such a thing actually exists.

[Kingdom of ZION]

All the speculation in the world does not change the very plain and easy to understand description of the timing of the formation of that Great and Abominable Church of the Devil in 1 Nephi 13:

1 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld many nations and kingdoms.

2 And the angel said unto me: What beholdest thou? And I said: I behold many nations and kingdoms.

3 And he said unto me: These are the nations and kingdoms of the Gentiles.

4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.

5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.

8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.

9 And also for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of God, and bring them down into captivity.

10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.

11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.

15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.

17 And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

18 And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle.

19 And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations.

20 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land; and I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them.

21 And the angel said unto me: Knowest thou the meaning of the book?

22 And I said unto him: I know not.

23 And he said: Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. And I, Nephi, beheld it; and he said unto me: The book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles.

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

30 Nevertheless, thou beholdest that the Gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity, and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations, upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands, which is the land that the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance; wherefore, thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed, which are among thy brethren.

31 Neither will he suffer that the Gentiles shall destroy the seed of thy brethren.

32 Neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that awful state of blindness, which thou beholdest they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, whose formation thou hast seen.

33 Wherefore saith the Lamb of God: I will be merciful unto the Gentiles, unto the visiting of the remnant of the house of Israel in great judgment.

34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.

35 For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after thy seed shall be destroyed, and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb.

36 And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation.

37 And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb; and whoso shall publish peace, yea, tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be.

38 And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from the Gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren.

39 And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.

40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

42 And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.

So we can see very plainly that according to the above chapter that this Church (not a government) is formed after the time of the 12 apostles of the Lamb, or, if you like at least after they write the gospels. Then before it goes forth unto the gentiles, the Great Whore removes the plain and precious parts. So that Church that Nephi sees is practically dated (as far as when it was formed) and that church continues on to the end when it is finally destroyed. And it is formed amongst the nations of the gentiles way before America was discovered....

I see that it is not so much that they deleted wording from the Scriptures (Bible), as history has show that was not the case, as it were they first established a Creed, they removed the written word out of the hands of the people, established Latin to insure security of their false traditions and ceremonial worship and finally with the advent of the printing press, fought the common people from learning to read or having copies of the Scriptures. They entrenched celibacy, trinity, false priesthoods, ordinances like child baptism and sprinkling, along with pagan worship of prays and bowing to statues, idols, and the perpetual virginity of Mary and the inflating of her calling.

YES! Many plain and precious truths were hidden and lost by the Holy Roman Church, such as Jesus was married. But then the LDS have had their small part these days, a good friend of mine was excommunicated (by Mark E. Peterson) for writing a book called, 'Jesus was Married'. Nothing ever really changes. Priesthoods are lost, scriptures are edited, and traditions replace the more plain and precious understandings that are taken away and lost (replaced by traditions, false beliefs like Papal Infallibility, changing of the Covenants and Ordinances.

Nephi saw that is was: 'things which are taken away out of the GOSPEL (not scriptures) of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many COVENANTS of the Lord have they taken away.'

The 'Gospel' is correct understanding, Traditions if you will and 'Covenants' is correct Ordinances!

Shalom

[LdsMarco]

The Prostituted Government As The Devil’s Church

[Finrock]

A bit off-topic here, but are the responses to this thread endemic of the participants of this forum? So many responses, criticisms, and ideas expressed which reveal that those responding to the OP did not carefully read the OP; and this isn't the only thread where this is clearly the case.

How can one make a cogent and/or rational response to another person if they are just superficially reading what has been written or responding to what they assume has been said as opposed to what has actually been said?

Whether one agrees or does not agree with the OP, shouldn't they at least carefully read the OP and make sure they understand what the OP is saying before contributing?

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Some excerpts from the Wikipedia entry of Great and abominable church:
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The major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in the Book of Mormon's First Book of Nephi are:

1. It persecutes, tortures, and slays the saints of God (see 1 Ne. 13:5);
2. It seeks wealth and luxury (see 1 Ne. 13:7–8);
3. It is characterized by sexual immorality (see 1 Ne. 13:7);
4. It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures (see 1 Ne. 13:26–29);
5. It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people (see 1 Ne. 14:11); and
6. Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations that it incites against the Saints wage war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed (see 1 Ne. 22:13–14).

The great and abominable church is often equated with Babylon. Five of the six characteristics identified in 1 Nephi are also attributed to Babylon in the Book of Revelation:

1. Babylon is drunk with the blood of the saints, the martyrs of Jesus, and the prophets (see Rev. 17:6; Rev. 18:24);
2. She is known for her enjoyment of great wealth and luxury (see Rev. 17:4; Rev. 18:3, 11–16);
3. She is characterized by wanton sexual immorality (see Rev. 17:1–2, 5);
4. She has dominion over all nations (see Rev. 17:15, 18; Rev. 18:3, 23–24); and
5. Her fate is to be consumed by the very kings who, because of her deceptions, have made war on the Lamb (see Rev. 17:14–16; Rev. 18:23).

According to an article by Stephen E. Robinson in an official magazine of LDS Church, "no single known historical church, denomination, or set of believers meets all the requirements for the great and abominable church. ... Rather, the role of Babylon has been played by many different agencies, ideologies, and churches in many different times." Regarding the popular identification of the Roman Catholic Church with the great and abominable church, Robinson states:

"More often, some have suggested that the Roman Catholic church might be the great and abominable church of Nephi 13. This is also untenable, primarily because Roman Catholicism as we know it did not yet exist when the crimes described by Nephi were being committed. In fact, the term Roman Catholic only makes sense after A.D. 1054 when it is used to distinguish the Western, Latin-speaking Orthodox church that followed the bishop of Rome from the Eastern, Greek-speaking Orthodox church that followed the bishop of Constantinople. ... Even if we use the term Catholic for the church Constantine made the state religion in A.D. 313, the New Testament as we know it was already widely circulating. That is, the plain and precious parts had already been removed. The notion of shifty-eyed medieval monks rewriting the scriptures is unfair and bigoted. We owe those monks a debt of gratitude that anything was saved at all."

More generally, Robinson notes: "Some Latter-day Saints have erred in believing that some specific denomination, to the exclusion of all others, has since the beginning of time been the great and abominable church. This is dangerous, for many will then want to know which it is, and an antagonistic relationship with that denomination will inevitably follow."

Rather than identifying an existing denomination or organization, Robinson hypothesizes that the "hellenized Christianity" of the first and second centuries is the most likely identity of Nephi's "great and abominable church".

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Robertson is correct on nearly all points. His hypothesis, though, that hellenized Christianity of the first and second centuries is the most likely identity of Nephi's great and abominable church is incorrect.

Here's another excerpt from the article:

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The first edition of LDS Church general authority Bruce R. McConkie's Mormon Doctrine stated: "It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church." As McConkie's book became popular, the belief that the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church "became embedded in popular [Mormon] belief, despite the fact that this idea was never sanctioned or preached over the pulpit."

McConkie's book became controversial with the leadership of the LDS Church, and he was pressed into making significant changes in the second edition. The second edition of Mormon Doctrine removed the reference to the Catholic Church, and instead stated: "The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God."

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Like Robertson, both of McConkie's hypothesis are likewise incorrect. None of these things, not one church, not all churches together, not false ideas and philosophies of men, taken together, or false scientific dogma, or anything else, is the great and abominable church. All these things are mere shadows and types of the actual great and abominable church which will form at some point in the future.

Thus, the truth is that the great and abominable church is, as yet, non-existent. It doesn't form until after the Josephite comes out of his box. It forms as a response to him and his works. Everyone who looks at 1 Nephi 13 and 14 and thinks, "Some of these things have happened already!" is in error. None of those things have happened, yet.

Nephi's vision (in those chapters) begins with the formation of the great and abominable church. If there is no great and abominable church, then the other things spoken of that occur after its formation haven't happened, yet, either.

So, you are saying that the "great and abominable church" will be an actual church, however, that church hasn't yet formed? If I understood your position correctly, can you clarify why you believe that the great and abominable church has yet to be formed?

-Finrock

[Finrock]

At this point, LDS Anarchist, be prepared to have someone go after you personally by calling you names, accusing you of heresy, labeling you as an apostate, etc., etc.

Perhaps this post will forestall it... =)

-Finrock

[LdsMarco]

At this point, LDS Anarchist, be prepared to have someone go after you personally by calling you names, accusing you of heresy, labeling you as an apostate, etc., etc.

Perhaps this post will forestall it... =)

-Finrock

We already know LOL

[Talon65]

In the book "The Last Days Timeline" the author goes into great detail on this subject - the "Whore Church" is yet to come in our future, it is a product of the world government aka the "fourth beast" and it is this entity that persecutes the Lords faithful. I highly recommend the book, the author posts on this forum occasionally.

[Robin Hood]

The Great and Abominable Church is the Roman Catholic Church and, to a certain extent, it's offspring.
Of this I have no doubt.