MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

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LatterDayLizard
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MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by LatterDayLizard »

This has been on my mind a lot lately as I've watched the disturbing shenanigans between the current administration and those who oppose his presidency.

I keep seeing parallels between the story of King Noah's people and the people of the United States. Noah's people lowered their standards because of their leaders' poor examples, so much so that they became blinded to the sin in their own lives. Not only would they not listen to the prophet when he called them to repent, they were responsible for his arrest and complicit in his execution. They were proud and blind, over-taxed and weak, all while thinking they were good, free and strong (and also safe from invasion).

I think about how much our standards have changed as a society compared with just a few short years ago and it's stunning. I listen to what people are saying to each other online and even in person and I look at how they act towards outsiders and people in need of help and I hardly know us anymore. I don't believe it matters so much who is in the white house, my guy or your guy, or which political party you or I voted for. What matters is that our people have shown that they are willing to cast aside what was once considered to be fundamental principals of righteousness and have been rapidly replacing them with disdain for correct principles, with spiritual blindness, and with a general willingness to embrace low standards and base behavior as a means to an end. Mob mentality is back in vogue. Fear and anger are rampant. This is happening on both sides of the political spectrum and it perfectly mirrors the pattern found among the people of King Noah. We don't know who supported the king or who was against his policies or behavior at first. By the time Abinadi was calling the people to repentance, it didn't matter because they were all weak and wicked together.

I suspect they would not have had to go through being enslaved by the Lamanites, despite the gross wickedness of the King and his priests, if the people of Noah had not chosen to embrace the pride of their leaders and reject the gospel of Christ and His warning for them.

Some say the church is being silent about current events, but I disagree. All you need to do is read through or listen to the last few conferences. Read the Book of Mormon. Attend a temple session or initiatory. Study the Sunday school lessons, or even just flip through some recent Ensigns. Listen closely and pay attention to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. We are being counseled strongly to shun in every way the behaviors we are witnessing today - anger, incivility, contention, fear, etc. We are being instructed to focus instead on faith, charity, hope, family unity, service w/o borders, and on spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ and to invite all to receive of His fullness, of the blessings and protections of the priesthood of God, as well as the blessings of making and keeping sacred covenants. It just now occurred to me, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but perhaps we, like Alma, are being asked to join forces with Abinadi's message today. It's likely then that how the American people choose to treat the true followers of Christ may one day down the road impact the safety and well being of the entire nation, just as it did in Noah's day (enslavement/war) and, for that matter, in Brigham Young's day (slavery issues/civil war).

So as taught by President Benson, if we truly are the generation who must be prepared to meet the Savior, it stands to reason we should be doing everything within our power to emulate the Savior's example as closely as we can and to keep our lamps trimmed, full, and burning brightly, come what may so that "when He shall appear we shall be like Him". We can't afford to get caught up in attacking the "other side", in the process forgetting who we are and what we were sent to do in these final days before His coming. Maybe ask yourself "since I was saved to come down at the end, what should I be doing with this opportunity?"

I hope no one would feel comfortable responding with "I should be cyber bullying commentators on CNN or FOX" or "I'm angry/fearful/hateful and I let those feeling direct my behavior and my political support".

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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by iWriteStuff »

LatterDayLizard wrote: January 3rd, 2018, 2:47 pm This has been on my mind a lot lately as I've watched the disturbing shenanigans between the current administration and those who oppose his presidency.
I see it as fulfillment of a latter-day Shiz and Coriantumr story. Or, if you will, Nephites vs Lamanites. Just because you're a loyal Nephite doesn't mean you're in the right. In the end, either you are for God or you perish in the fight.

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Jamescm
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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by Jamescm »

It is a trick of the devil; today, in the days of the Nephites, in the days of the Jaredites, in the days of the split kingdom of Israel, and certainly many more times in history, one side is clearly overally "better" than the other. That is, one side is pure obvious evil (except to those whose moral paradigm doesn't align with the Lord's in any way), then the other side, while still significantly flawed if not evil itself, bears some fruit long-desired by the righteous.

It is a distraction. When given a choice between a black garment and a gray garment, seek the white one. A person can support the good things that president Trump or his appointees have done or encouraged and be wary of the poor things, rather than jumping on the slightly better side of the fight. Our fight is against Satan and his plan of compulsion and separation from God, not against those who knowingly or unknowingly ally with his philosophies. It is against lies and deceptions, not the children of God who honestly believe and push out those lies and deceptions.

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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by larsenb »

The King Noah analogy really doesn't fit Trump. Licentious behaviour while in office has been attributed to Presidents as far back as Kennedy, according to many witnesses. But it wasn't until the President that redefined the meaning of 'is' came to office that this kind of real-time behaviour became public knowledge. As an example, after airing some of Clinton's actions, oral sex became rampant and epidemic among early and even pre-teens after they learned the new meaning of 'is'.

I've seen no evidence that Trump is this type of person, despite his earlier somewhat libidinous behaviour.

At the same time, he has made significant efforts to strengthen the role of religion in public life, and has put in place priorities for giving Christian refugees from Muslim countries asylum. And his main effort has been to take actions to bring back jobs and strengthen the economy of his fellow countryman. And the main theme of his Presidency is to combat 'globalism', in so far as it undermines our Constitutional priorities.

And ask yourself, do you think Abinidi created contention among King Noah and his followers? Sometimes, politeness, being nice and civil and being politically correct, just doesn't get the job done. You can send a country straight to hell, and all the while do it by being polite, civil, PC and nice. Of course you have to strengthen the role of political correctness in doing so.

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LatterDayLizard
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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by LatterDayLizard »

larsenb wrote: January 5th, 2018, 12:28 pm The King Noah analogy really doesn't fit Trump. Licentious behaviour while in office has been attributed to Presidents as far back as Kennedy, according to many witnesses. But it wasn't until the President that redefined the meaning of 'is' came to office that this kind of real-time behaviour became public knowledge...

I've seen no evidence that Trump is this type of person, despite his earlier somewhat libidinous behaviour...

At the same time, he has made significant efforts to...

And ask yourself, do you think Abinidi created contention among King Noah and his followers? Sometimes, politeness, being nice and civil and being politically correct, just doesn't get the job done. You can send a country straight to hell, and all the while do it by being polite, civil, PC and nice. Of course you have to strengthen the role of political correctness in doing so.
I do agree with you that Pres Trump's moral behavior is not new to the white house. The difference is that many of us knew who he was when we voted for him rather than finding out after the fact, like we did with Kennedy and Clinton. We can't be held accountable for what we didn't know. With Pres. Trump, I personally think there will be repercussions for us as a nation because enough of us "knew who he was when we picked him up". I understand that good people voted for him, but I will come out here and say I think we were wrong to do it. I think we should have trusted the counsel from the Lord and voted for someone with integrity, come what may. I believe we would have been blessed as a nation for doing that, regardless of who won.

Getting back to your point about the analogy, it appears we're defining "contention" differently. I'm not talking about speaking the truth even when it hurts, which is what I assume you're thinking. My understanding of contention is that form of argument which drives away the spirit. It's purpose is purely selfish: make yourself feel and look better at the expense of the other person. Contention cannot enlighten anyone because even if it starts out as a correct position, it will inevitably push everyone off course as the Holy Spirit leaves and the spirit of darkness takes over. It's clear Abinadi did not mince words with the people of King Noah, and especially not with the King or his priests. But there was strictly power and light in what he said to them. If his language had turned from soberness to crassness and he'd tried to argue with the priests instead of testifying boldly with the Spirit, would Alma have had his heart pricked and chosen to repent? Probably not! Abinadi would not only have been wasting his breath, he would have been poisoning the truth, making it even less palatable and potentially ruining the opportunity for people like Alma to accept it. Happily for Alma and the people who chose to be baptized and follow him into the wilderness to relative safety, this didn't happen. While the words Abinadi spoke most certainly made Alma feel uncomfortable, discomfort is not the same as discord.

In drawing comparisons with the people of King Noah my aim was to point out how the fate of the nation likely has more to do with how WE conduct ourselves than it does with who is sitting in the oval office at any given time. Trump could be a great guy behind the scenes, I'll grant you that. Or he could be a scoundrel who stirs up contention, as he appears to be to me. That's not really my point. My point is if we let ourselves get stirred up by anyone, be they the president's tweets or a left-leaning media, and lower our own standard of Christlike behavior as a result for whatever reason we feel justified, we may find at some point that other behaviors have deteriorated besides our language. We may discover we no longer have the protection of the Lord or the companionship of the Holy Spirit. How far of a leap is it from excusing behavior to participating in it?

What brings a people from this:
"And it came to pass that we did go up in the strength of the Lord to battle...I (Zeniff) did stimulate them to go to battle with their might, putting their trust in the Lord..."

...to this:
"Yea, and (the people) also became idolatrous, because the were deceived by the vain and flattering words of the king and priests; for they did speak flattering things unto them."

"...they did boast in their own strength, saying that their fifty could stand against thousands of the Lamanites; and thus they did boast, and did delight in blood, and the shedding of the blood of their brethren, and this because of the wickedness of their king and priests

"And now, o king, what great evil has thou done, or what great sins have thy people committed, that we should be condemned of God or judged of this man? And now, o king, behold we are guiltless, and thou, o king, hast not sinned; therefore, this man has lied concerning you...and behold, we are strong, we shall not be taken bondage, or be taken captive by our enemies; yea, and thou hast prospered in the land, and thou shalt also prosper...behold, here is the man, we deliver him into thy hands; thou mayest do with him as seemeth thee good."


(Mosiah 10-11)

Her is a people who went from trusting in the Lord against impossible odds to being deceived by their leaders into first accepting wickedness and finally embracing it themselves. It may have started with Clinton, or even as far back as Kennedy, but the republicans were supposed to be pushing back against that type of behavior. I'm alarmed to see this pattern of embracing the sins of our leaders emerge today, which is why I'm taking the time to discuss it here. I believe conservatives, tired of being picked on, are acting out in ways and giving a pass on behaviors they formally would have condemned. Republicans are supposed to be the party of God and family values - what happened? I obviously can't predict what might happen to us as a result of the republican party losing the high ground (I'm no Ben Kenobi.) But when you consider the consequences for the people of Noah when they allowed themselves to be deceived by corrupt leadership, would it not be the height of irony if we too were "invaded" somehow in the era of an administration heralded as the end of all our border concerns, all because we weren't willing to call out our own leaders when they tried to take us down the same path with their bad examples?

tdj
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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by tdj »

LatterDayLizard wrote: January 5th, 2018, 3:53 pm
larsenb wrote: January 5th, 2018, 12:28 pm The King Noah analogy really doesn't fit Trump. Licentious behaviour while in office has been attributed to Presidents as far back as Kennedy, according to many witnesses. But it wasn't until the President that redefined the meaning of 'is' came to office that this kind of real-time behaviour became public knowledge...

I've seen no evidence that Trump is this type of person, despite his earlier somewhat libidinous behaviour...

At the same time, he has made significant efforts to...

And ask yourself, do you think Abinidi created contention among King Noah and his followers? Sometimes, politeness, being nice and civil and being politically correct, just doesn't get the job done. You can send a country straight to hell, and all the while do it by being polite, civil, PC and nice. Of course you have to strengthen the role of political correctness in doing so.
I do agree with you that Pres Trump's moral behavior is not new to the white house. The difference is that many of us knew who he was when we voted for him rather than finding out after the fact, like we did with Kennedy and Clinton. We can't be held accountable for what we didn't know. With Pres. Trump, I personally think there will be repercussions for us as a nation because enough of us "knew who he was when we picked him up". I understand that good people voted for him, but I will come out here and say I think we were wrong to do it. I think we should have trusted the counsel from the Lord and voted for someone with integrity, come what may. I believe we would have been blessed as a nation for doing that, regardless of who won.

Getting back to your point about the analogy, it appears we're defining "contention" differently. I'm not talking about speaking the truth even when it hurts, which is what I assume you're thinking. My understanding of contention is that form of argument which drives away the spirit. It's purpose is purely selfish: make yourself feel and look better at the expense of the other person. Contention cannot enlighten anyone because even if it starts out as a correct position, it will inevitably push everyone off course as the Holy Spirit leaves and the spirit of darkness takes over. It's clear Abinadi did not mince words with the people of King Noah, and especially not with the King or his priests. But there was strictly power and light in what he said to them. If his language had turned from soberness to crassness and he'd tried to argue with the priests instead of testifying boldly with the Spirit, would Alma have had his heart pricked and chosen to repent? Probably not! Abinadi would not only have been wasting his breath, he would have been poisoning the truth, making it even less palatable and potentially ruining the opportunity for people like Alma to accept it. Happily for Alma and the people who chose to be baptized and follow him into the wilderness to relative safety, this didn't happen. While the words Abinadi spoke most certainly made Alma feel uncomfortable, discomfort is not the same as discord.

In drawing comparisons with the people of King Noah my aim was to point out how the fate of the nation likely has more to do with how WE conduct ourselves than it does with who is sitting in the oval office at any given time. Trump could be a great guy behind the scenes, I'll grant you that. Or he could be a scoundrel who stirs up contention, as he appears to be to me. That's not really my point. My point is if we let ourselves get stirred up by anyone, be they the president's tweets or a left-leaning media, and lower our own standard of Christlike behavior as a result for whatever reason we feel justified, we may find at some point that other behaviors have deteriorated besides our language. We may discover we no longer have the protection of the Lord or the companionship of the Holy Spirit. How far of a leap is it from excusing behavior to participating in it?

What brings a people from this:
"And it came to pass that we did go up in the strength of the Lord to battle...I (Zeniff) did stimulate them to go to battle with their might, putting their trust in the Lord..."

...to this:
"Yea, and (the people) also became idolatrous, because the were deceived by the vain and flattering words of the king and priests; for they did speak flattering things unto them."

"...they did boast in their own strength, saying that their fifty could stand against thousands of the Lamanites; and thus they did boast, and did delight in blood, and the shedding of the blood of their brethren, and this because of the wickedness of their king and priests

"And now, o king, what great evil has thou done, or what great sins have thy people committed, that we should be condemned of God or judged of this man? And now, o king, behold we are guiltless, and thou, o king, hast not sinned; therefore, this man has lied concerning you...and behold, we are strong, we shall not be taken bondage, or be taken captive by our enemies; yea, and thou hast prospered in the land, and thou shalt also prosper...behold, here is the man, we deliver him into thy hands; thou mayest do with him as seemeth thee good."


(Mosiah 10-11)

Her is a people who went from trusting in the Lord against impossible odds to being deceived by their leaders into first accepting wickedness and finally embracing it themselves. It may have started with Clinton, or even as far back as Kennedy, but the republicans were supposed to be pushing back against that type of behavior. I'm alarmed to see this pattern of embracing the sins of our leaders emerge today, which is why I'm taking the time to discuss it here. I believe conservatives, tired of being picked on, are acting out in ways and giving a pass on behaviors they formally would have condemned. Republicans are supposed to be the party of God and family values - what happened? I obviously can't predict what might happen to us as a result of the republican party losing the high ground (I'm no Ben Kenobi.) But when you consider the consequences for the people of Noah when they allowed themselves to be deceived by corrupt leadership, would it not be the height of irony if we too were "invaded" somehow in the era of an administration heralded as the end of all our border concerns, all because we weren't willing to call out our own leaders when they tried to take us down the same path with their bad examples?

I didn't vote for Trump lightly, believe it or not. But when I studied the allegations of harrasment, and what he said on tape, I had to come to the conclusion that the tape was at least 10 yrs old. And also, he didn't say in the tape he actually DID grab women by the genitals, he simply stated that Hollywood women were so nasty and slutty that they basically just throw themselves at you to the point where you COULD do such a thing without any reprecussions. At least that's what I got from it. But of course, as usual, leave it to the media to spin it. Still, as I said, the tape was a decade old at least. Even though I'm not running for office, if people in the church knew of some of the things in my past I've done and treated me the way i've seen them act towards Trump, I'd be absolutely devastated. The nasty backlash and persecution could even cause me to leave the church. No excuse for Christians to react the way I've seen some react. It's also totally unreasonable for a Christian to expect a non Christian to ACT Christ like. It's just too much of a leap.

During the campaign, I had to do alot of soul searching and think logically and reasonably. I had to sit down and ask myself just what was I attempting to vote for? What is the presidents role? Basically, we are hiring a CEO to run a huge business. In this case, our country. From that perspective, I couldn't really think of anyone running who was better qualified. If I were voting for a representative for women and their issues, I'd probably have voted for someone else. Although the women he's hired are absolutely brilliant. If I were selecting a Sunday school teacher, or head of morality department, then I'd definitely have to say no. But in management, and some diplomacy, he's actually pretty good. With the stock market doing so well all year long, our debt should start to plummet. Whether Trump is directly or indirectly responsible, the fact remains it's because of his presence that this is happening. People, the ones who can think, are just feeling better and better with this new president with each new decision he makes.

I'm not worried about the past, like what happened over a decade ago. Considering his accusers were funded by Hillary, I dont' even know for sure what is a lie and what is true. Except for the tape.

larsenb
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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by larsenb »

tdj wrote: January 5th, 2018, 4:19 pm . . . . .
I didn't vote for Trump lightly, believe it or not. But when I studied the allegations of harrasment, and what he said on tape, I had to come to the conclusion that the tape was at least 10 yrs old. And also, he didn't say in the tape he actually DID grab women by the genitals, he simply stated that Hollywood women were so nasty and slutty that they basically just throw themselves at you to the point where you COULD do such a thing without any reprecussions. At least that's what I got from it. But of course, as usual, leave it to the media to spin it. Still, as I said, the tape was a decade old at least. Even though I'm not running for office, if people in the church knew of some of the things in my past I've done and treated me the way i've seen them act towards Trump, I'd be absolutely devastated. The nasty backlash and persecution could even cause me to leave the church. No excuse for Christians to react the way I've seen some react. It's also totally unreasonable for a Christian to expect a non Christian to ACT Christ like. It's just too much of a leap.

During the campaign, I had to do alot of soul searching and think logically and reasonably. I had to sit down and ask myself just what was I attempting to vote for? What is the presidents role? Basically, we are hiring a CEO to run a huge business. In this case, our country. From that perspective, I couldn't really think of anyone running who was better qualified. If I were voting for a representative for women and their issues, I'd probably have voted for someone else. Although the women he's hired are absolutely brilliant. If I were selecting a Sunday school teacher, or head of morality department, then I'd definitely have to say no. But in management, and some diplomacy, he's actually pretty good. With the stock market doing so well all year long, our debt should start to plummet. Whether Trump is directly or indirectly responsible, the fact remains it's because of his presence that this is happening. People, the ones who can think, are just feeling better and better with this new president with each new decision he makes.

I'm not worried about the past, like what happened over a decade ago. Considering his accusers were funded by Hillary, I dont' even know for sure what is a lie and what is true. Except for the tape.
Quite so. Thanks for your point of few.

This was pretty much how I approached the Trump issue, knowing next to nothing about him before this election cycle. Almost all the accusations against him that I looked into were spun by the media and/or misrepresented. Listening to his actual speeches, I was impressed.

He was elected to run the country, not to be its next Prophet. Too many LDS expect the President and his cohorts to be something like an auxiliary Quorum of the 70. I think he's done quite well for a person brought up with a marginal Christian association, oodles of money, handsome and smart and doing business in a largely NYC setting. He could have ended up much worse.

And a lot of his alleged lack of civility is simply a person fighting back against a bullying and arrogant press. I love it when people fight back against bullies.

larsenb
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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by larsenb »

LatterDayLizard wrote: January 5th, 2018, 3:53 pm
larsenb wrote: January 5th, 2018, 12:28 pm The King Noah analogy really doesn't fit Trump. Licentious behaviour while in office has been attributed to Presidents as far back as Kennedy, according to many witnesses. But it wasn't until the President that redefined the meaning of 'is' came to office that this kind of real-time behaviour became public knowledge...

I've seen no evidence that Trump is this type of person, despite his earlier somewhat libidinous behaviour...

At the same time, he has made significant efforts to...

And ask yourself, do you think Abinidi created contention among King Noah and his followers? Sometimes, politeness, being nice and civil and being politically correct, just doesn't get the job done. You can send a country straight to hell, and all the while do it by being polite, civil, PC and nice. Of course you have to strengthen the role of political correctness in doing so.
I do agree with you that Pres Trump's moral behavior is not new to the white house. The difference is that many of us knew who he was when we voted for him rather than finding out after the fact, like we did with Kennedy and Clinton. We can't be held accountable for what we didn't know. With Pres. Trump, I personally think there will be repercussions for us as a nation because enough of us "knew who he was when we picked him up". I understand that good people voted for him, but I will come out here and say I think we were wrong to do it. I think we should have trusted the counsel from the Lord and voted for someone with integrity, come what may. I believe we would have been blessed as a nation for doing that, regardless of who won.

Getting back to your point about the analogy, it appears we're defining "contention" differently. I'm not talking about speaking the truth even when it hurts, which is what I assume you're thinking. My understanding of contention is that form of argument which drives away the spirit. It's purpose is purely selfish: make yourself feel and look better at the expense of the other person. Contention cannot enlighten anyone because even if it starts out as a correct position, it will inevitably push everyone off course as the Holy Spirit leaves and the spirit of darkness takes over. It's clear Abinadi did not mince words with the people of King Noah, and especially not with the King or his priests. But there was strictly power and light in what he said to them. If his language had turned from soberness to crassness and he'd tried to argue with the priests instead of testifying boldly with the Spirit, would Alma have had his heart pricked and chosen to repent? Probably not! Abinadi would not only have been wasting his breath, he would have been poisoning the truth, making it even less palatable and potentially ruining the opportunity for people like Alma to accept it. Happily for Alma and the people who chose to be baptized and follow him into the wilderness to relative safety, this didn't happen. While the words Abinadi spoke most certainly made Alma feel uncomfortable, discomfort is not the same as discord.

In drawing comparisons with the people of King Noah my aim was to point out how the fate of the nation likely has more to do with how WE conduct ourselves than it does with who is sitting in the oval office at any given time. Trump could be a great guy behind the scenes, I'll grant you that. Or he could be a scoundrel who stirs up contention, as he appears to be to me. . . . . .
I think Trump's behaviour while occupying the White House has not been, nor will it be, anything like Kennedy's and Clinton's. I think this accusation against him is not based on anything you actually know and that you've bought too much into the anti-Trump slander echo chamber. Just my opinion.

Further, I would say most of the responsibility for contention surrounding Trump belongs to those who can do nothing but bad-mouth the man and lay false accusations against him. His response is more a defensive posture than anything else. He is also perceived as contentious because he breaks through PC requirements, and the left-leaning among us go ape when he does this, and falsely lay the blame for their awful behaviour at his feet.

But I agree, we are responsible for our own behaviour and shouldn't be caught up the intense blame game and false accusations being hurled at Trump. I pay very little attention to his Tweets, but love it that he is using an outlet that end-runs the MSM strait jacket.

And I"m seeing most of the "the lowering of behavioral standards' coming from the Left.


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LatterDayLizard
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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by LatterDayLizard »

A leader doesn't have to be a prophet, seer, and revelator to be a good man/woman I can trust with my vote.

I've watched Trump's words and behavior for a long time, from way before the election ever happened. I made my own judgment based on what I heard him say and how he treated others. I watched one of his campaign speeches when he came to town. Other people did the same thing, only they came to a very different conclusion than I did. Regardless of who's right about him, I hope we can all agree to maintain among OURSELVES the highest standards of integrity possible as citizens and NEVER excuse poor behavior in our leadership. When our politicians do good, we should applaud. When they act out, we should call them out. They are supposed to represent the best of who we are and speak for us. Leaders without integrity, without exception, will always drag a nation down, if we let them.

From the First Presidency letter read over the pulpits, encouraging political participation (2014):

"Latter-day Saints as citizens are to seek out and then uphold leaders who will act with integrity and are wise, good, and honest. Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in various political parties and candidates."

From King Mosiah:

"For behold I say unto you, the sins of many people have been caused by the iniquities of their kings..." (Mosiah 29:31)

Finally, from the Savior:

"I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free. Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn. Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil." (Doctrine & Covenants 98:8-1)

Silver
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Posts: 5247

Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by Silver »

LatterDayLizard wrote: January 5th, 2018, 3:53 pmHere is a people who went from trusting in the Lord against impossible odds to being deceived by their leaders into first accepting wickedness and finally embracing it themselves. It may have started with Clinton, or even as far back as Kennedy, but the republicans were supposed to be pushing back against that type of behavior. I'm alarmed to see this pattern of embracing the sins of our leaders emerge today, which is why I'm taking the time to discuss it here. I believe conservatives, tired of being picked on, are acting out in ways and giving a pass on behaviors they formally would have condemned. Republicans are supposed to be the party of God and family values - what happened? I obviously can't predict what might happen to us as a result of the republican party losing the high ground (I'm no Ben Kenobi.) But when you consider the consequences for the people of Noah when they allowed themselves to be deceived by corrupt leadership, would it not be the height of irony if we too were "invaded" somehow in the era of an administration heralded as the end of all our border concerns, all because we weren't willing to call out our own leaders when they tried to take us down the same path with their bad examples?
I will avoid speaking of Trump in your thread because the discussion might go down a trail you would prefer to avoid. However, you might be interested in listening to a short excerpt from a radio show discussing the origins of the Republican Party. BrianM started a thread with a post about it. The Republican Party is not all goodness and light as many LDS assume. When you consider the Republicans were in the White House when 9/11 and the subsequent cover-up occurred, it's quite obvious that we should have never trusted them with any position, including village dogcatcher. I find them to be worse than the Democrats because while pretending to be the guys in the white hats, they do great evil. The Democrats come straight out and say they're for abortion and gun confiscation, bless their little hearts. At least they're honest about their intentions. On an individual level, Obama is a gay golfer while George W. Bush and company brought down the Twin Towers. Which is worse?

Here's the link to BrianM's thread: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=47126

You might also enjoy iWriteStuff's Ether's Avenue thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45437&hilit=ether%27s+avenue

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LatterDayLizard
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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by LatterDayLizard »

Silver wrote: January 7th, 2018, 6:42 pm
LatterDayLizard wrote: January 5th, 2018, 3:53 pmHere is a people who went from trusting in the Lord against impossible odds to being deceived by their leaders into first accepting wickedness and finally embracing it themselves. It may have started with Clinton, or even as far back as Kennedy, but the republicans were supposed to be pushing back against that type of behavior. I'm alarmed to see this pattern of embracing the sins of our leaders emerge today, which is why I'm taking the time to discuss it here. I believe conservatives, tired of being picked on, are acting out in ways and giving a pass on behaviors they formally would have condemned. Republicans are supposed to be the party of God and family values - what happened? I obviously can't predict what might happen to us as a result of the republican party losing the high ground (I'm no Ben Kenobi.) But when you consider the consequences for the people of Noah when they allowed themselves to be deceived by corrupt leadership, would it not be the height of irony if we too were "invaded" somehow in the era of an administration heralded as the end of all our border concerns, all because we weren't willing to call out our own leaders when they tried to take us down the same path with their bad examples?
I will avoid speaking of Trump in your thread because the discussion might go down a trail you would prefer to avoid. However, you might be interested in listening to a short excerpt from a radio show discussing the origins of the Republican Party. BrianM started a thread with a post about it. The Republican Party is not all goodness and light as many LDS assume. When you consider the Republicans were in the White House when 9/11 and the subsequent cover-up occurred, it's quite obvious that we should have never trusted them with any position, including village dogcatcher. I find them to be worse than the Democrats because while pretending to be the guys in the white hats, they do great evil. The Democrats come straight out and say they're for abortion and gun confiscation, bless their little hearts. At least they're honest about their intentions. On an individual level, Obama is a gay golfer while George W. Bush and company brought down the Twin Towers. Which is worse?

Here's the link to BrianM's thread: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=47126

You might also enjoy iWriteStuff's Ether's Avenue thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45437&hilit=ether%27s+avenue
There are good and bad forces at play in both parties, I agree. The right has played to the conservative religious voting block for years. There has been mounting evidence that shows a number of republicans don't really believe in what they're telling us.

Thank you for the links. I've read portions of Ether's avenue but not the entire thread.

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AI2.0
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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by AI2.0 »

LatterDayLizard wrote: January 3rd, 2018, 2:47 pm This has been on my mind a lot lately as I've watched the disturbing shenanigans between the current administration and those who oppose his presidency.

I keep seeing parallels between the story of King Noah's people and the people of the United States. Noah's people lowered their standards because of their leaders' poor examples, so much so that they became blinded to the sin in their own lives. Not only would they not listen to the prophet when he called them to repent, they were responsible for his arrest and complicit in his execution. They were proud and blind, over-taxed and weak, all while thinking they were good, free and strong (and also safe from invasion).

I think about how much our standards have changed as a society compared with just a few short years ago and it's stunning. I listen to what people are saying to each other online and even in person and I look at how they act towards outsiders and people in need of help and I hardly know us anymore. I don't believe it matters so much who is in the white house, my guy or your guy, or which political party you or I voted for. What matters is that our people have shown that they are willing to cast aside what was once considered to be fundamental principals of righteousness and have been rapidly replacing them with disdain for correct principles, with spiritual blindness, and with a general willingness to embrace low standards and base behavior as a means to an end. Mob mentality is back in vogue. Fear and anger are rampant. This is happening on both sides of the political spectrum and it perfectly mirrors the pattern found among the people of King Noah. We don't know who supported the king or who was against his policies or behavior at first. By the time Abinadi was calling the people to repentance, it didn't matter because they were all weak and wicked together.

I suspect they would not have had to go through being enslaved by the Lamanites, despite the gross wickedness of the King and his priests, if the people of Noah had not chosen to embrace the pride of their leaders and reject the gospel of Christ and His warning for them.

Some say the church is being silent about current events, but I disagree. All you need to do is read through or listen to the last few conferences. Read the Book of Mormon. Attend a temple session or initiatory. Study the Sunday school lessons, or even just flip through some recent Ensigns. Listen closely and pay attention to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. We are being counseled strongly to shun in every way the behaviors we are witnessing today - anger, incivility, contention, fear, etc. We are being instructed to focus instead on faith, charity, hope, family unity, service w/o borders, and on spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ and to invite all to receive of His fullness, of the blessings and protections of the priesthood of God, as well as the blessings of making and keeping sacred covenants. It just now occurred to me, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but perhaps we, like Alma, are being asked to join forces with Abinadi's message today. It's likely then that how the American people choose to treat the true followers of Christ may one day down the road impact the safety and well being of the entire nation, just as it did in Noah's day (enslavement/war) and, for that matter, in Brigham Young's day (slavery issues/civil war).

So as taught by President Benson, if we truly are the generation who must be prepared to meet the Savior, it stands to reason we should be doing everything within our power to emulate the Savior's example as closely as we can and to keep our lamps trimmed, full, and burning brightly, come what may so that "when He shall appear we shall be like Him". We can't afford to get caught up in attacking the "other side", in the process forgetting who we are and what we were sent to do in these final days before His coming. Maybe ask yourself "since I was saved to come down at the end, what should I be doing with this opportunity?"

I hope no one would feel comfortable responding with "I should be cyber bullying commentators on CNN or FOX" or "I'm angry/fearful/hateful and I let those feeling direct my behavior and my political support".
I agree, if people think the church is silent on these things, they are ignoring a lot of what is said in General Conference. Elder Ballards most recent General Conference talk is a good example of what we are being counseled to do, in response to the pressures and problems we face in our church, our society and out nation.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng

larsenb
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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by larsenb »

AI2.0 wrote: January 8th, 2018, 3:20 pm
I agree, if people think the church is silent on these things, they are ignoring a lot of what is said in General Conference. Elder Ballards most recent General Conference talk is a good example of what we are being counseled to do, in response to the pressures and problems we face in our church, our society and out nation.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng
Elder Ballard would have been better served by qualifying or omitting his condemnation of 'nationalism'. I found this rather shocking. Unfortunately, Elder Anderson followed suite with the same condemnation.

Elder Cook did a much better job in clarifying the 'nationalism' issue.

larsenb
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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by larsenb »

Silver wrote: January 7th, 2018, 6:42 pm The Republican Party is not all goodness and light as many LDS assume. When you consider the Republicans were in the White House when 9/11 and the subsequent cover-up occurred, it's quite obvious that we should have never trusted them with any position, including village dogcatcher. I find them to be worse than the Democrats because while pretending to be the guys in the white hats, they do great evil. The Democrats come straight out and say they're for abortion and gun confiscation, bless their little hearts. At least they're honest about their intentions. On an individual level, Obama is a gay golfer while George W. Bush and company brought down the Twin Towers. Which is worse? . . .
Who on earth thinks the Republican Party is all goodness and truth??

Many of the State and the National Republican Party platforms are wonderful. It is individuals and their clicks that derail the Party from these platforms.

And we "should never have trusted them with any position, including village dogcatcher" because of 9/11 and its coverup?? My, my. It never ends, does it, Silver.

9/11 is far more complex than: Republicans did it and covered it up. You do understand that, don't you??

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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by gardener4life »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 3rd, 2018, 3:09 pm
LatterDayLizard wrote: January 3rd, 2018, 2:47 pm This has been on my mind a lot lately as I've watched the disturbing shenanigans between the current administration and those who oppose his presidency.
I see it as fulfillment of a latter-day Shiz and Coriantumr story. Or, if you will, Nephites vs Lamanites. Just because you're a loyal Nephite doesn't mean you're in the right. In the end, either you are for God or you perish in the fight.
The Shiz and Coriantumr comparison is really good! And if you look at the whole Book of Ether its showing that as a society progresses towards destruction all of the candidates start to look like Shiz and Coriantumr. There wasn't any good pure candidates. They all wanted to shed blood to be the king. They wouldn't let it go and started to delight in shedding blood. People were losing the light of Christ and the ability to feel anything for things that are good.

No wonder a lot of candidates now look kind of like Shiz and Coriantumr...except they are slaying each other economically and politically now but not yet with real swords.

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James-T-Prout
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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by James-T-Prout »

For myself, I've seen the politics being played out really badly on a national and world stage.

The answer as to the behind the scenes mess that goes on in the Whitehouse and with this U.S. President in particular is shown in a book called "The President Makers" by Don Fotheringham.

Image

Located Here: https://www.lastdaystimeline.com/president-makers/

This book shows the history of the cabinets of the US Presidents and how they were controlled and steered to globalist agendas.

This book "The Last Days Timeline" by James T. Prout (authored by myself), shows where all of these policies surrounding the U.S. Presidents will eventually go. As shown in the scriptures.

Image

Shown Here: https://www.lastdaystimeline.com/

The Presidency infighting that is happening right now has been shown in scripture. These attacks upon this sitting U.S. President have been known for over 2600 years. No kidding.

See The Ezra's Eagle Prophecy as recorded in the Old King James Version of the Apocrypha.

Image

The free chapters of this prophecy is recorded in The Last Days Timeline Here:
https://www.lastdaystimeline.com/free-chapters/

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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by JohnnyL »

larsenb wrote: January 8th, 2018, 7:41 pm
AI2.0 wrote: January 8th, 2018, 3:20 pm
I agree, if people think the church is silent on these things, they are ignoring a lot of what is said in General Conference. Elder Ballards most recent General Conference talk is a good example of what we are being counseled to do, in response to the pressures and problems we face in our church, our society and out nation.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng
Elder Ballard would have been better served by qualifying or omitting his condemnation of 'nationalism'. I found this rather shocking. Unfortunately, Elder Anderson followed suite with the same condemnation.

Elder Cook did a much better job in clarifying the 'nationalism' issue.
I think most of Elder Ballard's talk would have been better unsaid.

Anyway, I think the key was here: “We need to embrace God’s children compassionately and eliminate any prejudice, including racism, sexism, and nationalism." Even though he himself showed a lot of prejudice in his own talk, lol.

But I think that's definitely a goal.

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LatterDayLizard
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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by LatterDayLizard »

JohnnyL wrote: January 19th, 2018, 11:04 am
larsenb wrote: January 8th, 2018, 7:41 pm
AI2.0 wrote: January 8th, 2018, 3:20 pm
I agree, if people think the church is silent on these things, they are ignoring a lot of what is said in General Conference. Elder Ballards most recent General Conference talk is a good example of what we are being counseled to do, in response to the pressures and problems we face in our church, our society and out nation.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng
Elder Ballard would have been better served by qualifying or omitting his condemnation of 'nationalism'. I found this rather shocking. Unfortunately, Elder Anderson followed suite with the same condemnation.

Elder Cook did a much better job in clarifying the 'nationalism' issue.
I think most of Elder Ballard's talk would have been better unsaid.

Anyway, I think the key was here: “We need to embrace God’s children compassionately and eliminate any prejudice, including racism, sexism, and nationalism." Even though he himself showed a lot of prejudice in his own talk, lol.

But I think that's definitely a goal.
I went back and listened to Elder Ballard's talk. Then I listened to Elder Anderson's talk, as well as Elder Cook's talk. Then I listened again. And again.

What I came away with was a strong witness that Elder Ballard's statement about Nationalism was inspired of God.

First, this is General Conference and these are the Lord's apostles speaking to us. Let us not treat carelessly the words carefully considered, pondered about, and fasted and prayed over by those called by God to direct His church, as if our discomfort and our own understanding is paramount above all other witnesses.

Second, I don't believe that two apostles in the same sacred meeting would mistakenly call out the same thing, in this case Nationalism. Elder Cook not naming "Nationalism" in his talk is not relevant unless he were to come out defending it, which of course he did not. I have no doubt he would support the statement and the second witness of Elders Ballard and Andersen, if asked.

Third, I don't believe it's a coincidence that the final words of the recently deceased Elder Hales - his last testimony, if you will - were:

"“When we choose to have faith, we are prepared to stand in the presence of God. … After the Savior’s Crucifixion, He appeared only to those ‘who had been faithful in the testimony of [Him] while they lived in mortality.’ [D&C 138:12.] Those ‘who rejected the testimonies … of the … prophets [could not] behold [the Savior’s] presence, nor look upon his face.’ [D&C 138:21.] … Our faith prepares us to be in the presence of the Lord.”

Sobering, yes? Here we are, in an LDS forum where we discuss what to watch for and how to prepare for the Savior's return. Some of us seem perfectly comfortable embracing unauthorized, questionable sources, while spurning the very witnesses authorized by God to lead us through to the Second Coming. Sad irony indeed.

Going back to Elder Anderson's talk, he precedes his support of Elder Ballard's "Nationalism" statement with the following:

"The teachings of general conference are the considerations the Lord would have before us now and in the months ahead.
The shepherd “goeth before [his sheep], and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.”
Often His voice directs us to change something in our lives.
He invites us to repent. He invites us to follow Him."

We need to be listening to the Lord's servants - His TRUE servants - if we don't want to find ourselves shut out of the wedding feast.

I'll wrap this up with one final quote from Elder Andersen:

"There is a treasure chest of heavenly direction awaiting your discovery in the messages of general conference. The test for each of us is how we respond to what we hear, what we read, and what we feel."

I would challenge anyone who is struggling with this topic or anything else spoken of during this recent conference to take their concerns immediately to the Lord in humble prayer and to be patient of and open to His correction. I know I have to. It's a big part of what conference is there for.

Let us all be true Latter-day Saints and not disregard the Lord's messengers.

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LatterDayLizard
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Re: MAGA vs Anti-Trump - are we all wrong together?

Post by LatterDayLizard »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 3rd, 2018, 3:09 pm
...Just because you're a loyal Nephite doesn't mean you're in the right. In the end, either you are for God or you perish in the fight.
In our day, I think many of us LDS are confusing political and social positions with the gospel, assuming our analysis of world events is in perfect harmony with the Lord's. I've observed that l if I challenge them, they either accuse me of being a gadianton, deceived by Satan, or they may even experience a faith crisis.

SO frustrating. We could both be wrong politically, but if we begin to disregard the counsel of our own prophets in how we interact with each other because we're too intent on the rightness of our politics, well...

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