Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

[lemuel]

Upon a second reading of Isaiah 28, I think I have now figured what exactly this is talking about, and have narrowed down the time of its fulfillment. There is now no doubt in my mind that this prophecy is yet future to us. The prophecy won't be fulfilled unto after the Dread Pirate Roberts (the OMAS) comes out of his box and sets in order the church.

Thanks goes to lemuel. I will likely be calling the OMAS, "the Dread Pirate Roberts," from now on thanks to you.

As you wish.

[Spaced_Out]

Interesting. And yet:

3 Nephi 20:14 And the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you this land, for your inheritance.

15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—

16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

To whom did Jesus Christ give this land? What will happen to the Gentiles (Ephraim) after having received the "blessing" and do not "repent?" The remnant of those at Bountiful (of whom Lehi's children have a promise sealed upon them) will tread them down and none can deliver. In other words, God will have delivered the Gentiles into the hands of this remnant. There is a reason Jesus Christ quoted Isaiah and also commanded this remnant to study the words of Isaiah.

Ooh what confusion.....
The gentiles are not Ephraim - gentile = not member of the house of Israel.
Those of the young lions are the descendants of the Laminates who are Ephramites..... i.e. not Judah or of Davitic descendants..

How does one get that Gentiles are = Ephraim. Once a person is baptised they are adopted into the house of Israel and are no longer gentiles. Yes the gentile nations ie. the US will reject the Gospel, missionaries withdrawn and the work will then turn to the house of Israel. That in no way means the LDS church will be overrun or punished in some way - it is absolute insanity and confusion and spreading of lies and a doctrine of damnation.

The D&C is clear that the Lost Tribes will come to Zion the new Jerusalem to receive their blessings from Ephraim. Who will build and be in charge of Zion - Ephraim.

[simpleton]

Interesting. And yet:

3 Nephi 20:14 And the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you this land, for your inheritance.

15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—

16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

To whom did Jesus Christ give this land? What will happen to the Gentiles (Ephraim) after having received the "blessing" and do not "repent?" The remnant of those at Bountiful (of whom Lehi's children have a promise sealed upon them) will tread them down and none can deliver. In other words, God will have delivered the Gentiles into the hands of this remnant. There is a reason Jesus Christ quoted Isaiah and also commanded this remnant to study the words of Isaiah.

Ooh what confusion.....
The gentiles are not Ephraim - gentile = not member of the house of Israel.
Those of the young lions are the descendants of the Laminates who are Ephramites..... i.e. not Judah or of Davitic descendants..

How does one get that Gentiles are = Ephraim. Once a person is baptised they are adopted into the house of Israel and are no longer gentiles. Yes the gentile nations ie. the US will reject the Gospel, missionaries withdrawn and the work will then turn to the house of Israel. That in no way means the LDS church will be overrun or punished in some way - it is absolute insanity and confusion and spreading of lies and a doctrine of damnation.

The D&C is clear that the Lost Tribes will come to Zion the new Jerusalem to receive their blessings from Ephraim. Who will build and be in charge of Zion - Ephraim.

Ephraim is identified with the gentiles all through the scriptures. Joseph Smith himself is identified as or with the gentiles... Read the Kirtland dedicatory prayer..
Verse 60: Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles...

All through the Book of Mormon we are identified as the gentiles.... Ephraim mixed with the nations so Ephraims identity is lost to the world... But we know through revelation who Ephraim is, or, at least some of them...
In Isaiah, Ephraim in the latter days is in trouble also, so whether we are the "Ephraim " or whether we are "Gentiles" Both it seems are going to get a good spanking. Actually much more than just a spanking. I think that the whole of Isaiah 28 specificly applies to us as LDS as we are identified as Ephraim and all the BofM references to the "Gentiles" applies to us also as we are also identified as Gentiles... So all is not well in Zion...

[Spaced_Out]

Ephraim is identified with the gentiles all through the scriptures. Joseph Smith himself is identified as or with the gentiles... Read the Kirtland dedicatory prayer..
Verse 60: Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles...

All through the Book of Mormon we are identified as the gentiles.... Ephraim mixed with the nations so Ephraims identity is lost to the world... But we know through revelation who Ephraim is, or, at least some of them...
In Isaiah, Ephraim in the latter days is in trouble also, so whether we are the "Ephraim " or whether we are "Gentiles" Both it seems are going to get a good spanking. Actually much more than just a spanking. I think that the whole of Isaiah 28 specificly applies to us as LDS as we are identified as Ephraim and all the BofM references to the "Gentiles" applies to us also as we are also identified as Gentiles. Not ture..... So all is not well in Zion...

Not true - That is serous hard core apostate doctrine......

There is no prophecy against the church in the last days- said the church will be established among the gentiles and the Americas will be given to those that repent and join the church... the gentiles will be destroyed but not the Church, as they are not the same thing.
The gentiles are not the church, those that initially joined and built up the church came from among the gentiles and we live among the gentiles and had the same constitution and secular law as the gentiles and so were/are associated with them. When the gentiles time is fulfilled the gospel will be taken from them and the LDS missionaries then sent to the house of Israel, as it is Ephraim responsibility to establish Zoin and assist the rest of the house of Israel. There is no prophecy against Ephraim that applies to the last days. The interpretation that is put on the scripture is way out.

22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem

.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/israel
Members of the tribe of Judah were to be the rulers until the Messiah came (Gen. 49:10; JST, Gen. 50:24 [Appendix]). In the last days the tribe of Ephraim has the privilege of carrying the message of the Restoration of the gospel to the world and gathering scattered Israel (Deut. 33:13–17). The time will come when through the gospel of Jesus Christ, Ephraim will have a leadership role in uniting all the tribes of Israel (Isa. 11:12–13; D&C 133:26–34).

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princ ... l?lang=eng The physical gathering of Israel means that the covenant people will be “gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and shall be established in all their lands of promise” (2 Nephi 9:2). The tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh will be gathered in the Americas. The tribe of Judah will return to the city of Jerusalem and the area surrounding it. The ten lost tribes will receive from the tribe of Ephraim their promised blessings (see D&C 133:26–34).

D&C 133: 30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.
33 And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy.
34 Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows.

[Love]

D&C 101:43-62 Is the Lord chastising the saints for not building the temple in Zion Fast enough. If the watchman would have had spiritual eyes they would have avoided some of the suffering In Missour. The point is we must obey the spiritual prompting the first time, (all members from the top who lead the church to parents whom,lead thier children.)

[Spaced_Out]

D&C 101:43-62 Is the Lord chastising the saints for not building the temple in Zion Fast enough. If the watchman would have had spiritual eyes they would have avoided some of the suffering In Missour. The point is we must obey the spiritual prompting the first time, (all members from the top who lead the church to parents whom,lead thier children.)

Claiming the church leaders have sinned and are under condemnation -is false and evil speaking of the Lords anointed. This whole topic is about trying by any means to dig up obscure and and poorly interpreted scriptures to make a claim the LDS church has sinned and gone astray.
Those that think so should just leave the church and build their own church under their own sense of righteousness and truth.

The watchmen were in Jail at the time and did warn the members but they did not listen and thought like those on this thread thought they were better than the prophets and received their just punishment.

In 3 Nephi Jesus explains why he destroyed vary many cities....
3 Ne 10:12 it was the more righteous part of the people who were saved,
"Mormon seeks in these verses to impress upon [us] that it was because of their desire unto righteousness that the more righteous were saved. Those who were delivered from untimely death and also destruction, were 'they who received the prophets, and stoned them not;

The same is going to happen again in the US and the rest of the world - the destruction of the gentile nations because they did not heed the words of the prophets not because the prophets have gone astray and need correction. Since the beginning the first sign of apostasy is criticism of the Church leaders/prophets.

[gardener4life]

Ephraim is drunk in pride. The allegory is clear and is even a clear (at least) partial answer as to what must be set in order.

Isaiah 28:3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:

LDSFF is thankfully not a representation of Ephraim as a whole but we are largely Ephraim here and look at how many of us are quick to anger and quick to contend... And I am certainly not immune despite my best intentions.

7 ¶ But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

The drunken analogy ends as the Lord immediately transitions to knowledge. Pride is what keeps Ephraim from learning knowledge... Pride married to false conception and false traditions... Pride set by those who would rather appear to know it all by limiting the bounds of everyone's understanding and daring them to even consider the truths that lie beyond. Who will the OMAS teach when the drunkards of Ephraim are latched onto the breast, refusing the meat so freely offered?

Ironically, this pride and milk drinking is at least partially why the OMAS is controversial... This very reason detailed in Isaiah about the person the Lord identifies in verse two a mighty and strong one. He arrives at a time when Ephraim is drunk in pride and is so firmly latched onto milk that Ephraim is nowhere near ready for the meat he has to offer let alone accept the fact that there could be so important a figure who is not Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ Himself. Yet the scriptures and prophesies are clear. There is a mighty and strong one set to gather Israel and inherit the throne and kingdom of David and set at naught the rulers of the world and sit in judgement before the Lord returns in full glory.

I also concur on drunk on pride with Alaris. Its also in people's blessings OFTEN because of the danger of it being a judgment on us. 'beware of pride, as Ephraim was originally rebellious, quick to anger, and full of pride'.

I have to point out too that I see what pride does to people in my family. I have several (at least 3) immediate family members who have absolutely no common sense, only from pride. It's absolutely amazing and staggering. I don't like to say this but the examples are right out of the scriptures. It usually starts off with, someone saying, hey you better not do that. Then the response is, oh I'm an expert I know what I'm doing. That will never happen to me. Then something bad happens from pride.

Uh...where was I going with this...anyway the point is and what I'm trying to paint a picture of is that its absolutely stunning how pride strips people of commen sense and the Spirit. And with no common sense and no Spirit, they then deviate from truth, water down doctrine, trust in the flesh, and end up changing the doctrine by trusting false teachers.

And it just so happens we're being told by Elder Ballard to not change the doctrine or water it down. And we were warned of giant sycamores (or was it giant redwood) trees that got sick and died in a recent talk.

[Love]

D&C 101:43-62 Is the Lord chastising the saints for not building the temple in Zion Fast enough. If the watchman would have had spiritual eyes they would have avoided some of the suffering In Missour. The point is we must obey the spiritual prompting the first time, (all members from the top who lead the church to parents whom,lead thier children.)

Claiming the church leaders have sinned and are under condemnation -is false and evil speaking of the Lords anointed. This whole topic is about trying by any means to dig up obscure and and poorly interpreted scriptures to make a claim the LDS church has sinned and gone astray.
Those that think so should just leave the church and build their own church under their own sense of righteousness and truth.

The watchmen were in Jail at the time and did warn the members but they did not listen and thought like those on this thread thought they were better than the prophets and received their just punishment.

In 3 Nephi Jesus explains why he destroyed vary many cities....
3 Ne 10:12 it was the more righteous part of the people who were saved,
"Mormon seeks in these verses to impress upon [us] that it was because of their desire unto righteousness that the more righteous were saved. Those who were delivered from untimely death and also destruction, were 'they who received the prophets, and stoned them not;

The same is going to happen again in the US and the rest of the world - the destruction of the gentile nations because they did not heed the words of the prophets not because the prophets have gone astray and need correction. Since the beginning the first sign of apostasy is criticism of the Church leaders/prophets.

Hold your self back man, Read your scriptures all have room to repent. I said nothing to condemn the current brethren or prophets. It's no secret that the Lord was Mad at Joseph Smith for the 116 pages, he couldn't translate for awhile after that.

Don't you put words into others mouths. Don't Judge me wrongly. As for D&C 101 read it before you tell me or any else what it means.

[Spaced_Out]

Hold your self back man, Read your scriptures all have room to repent. I said nothing to condemn the current brethren or prophets. It's no secret that the Lord was Mad at Joseph Smith for the 116 pages, he couldn't translate for awhile after that.

Don't you put words into others mouths. Don't Judge me wrongly. As for D&C 101 read it before you tell me or any else what it means.

So what the early LDS church was still progressing and in its infant state with much persecution and financial issues as well as in a state of restoration of knowledge. A few mistakes were made. What has that got to do with a so called 'davitic' servant who is to come and set the church in order in the last days. It is nothing more than name calling judging and pointing fingers with the intention to say the LDS church is corrupt and needs to be purged.
It is all anti LDS false doctrine.

Who do you think is the head of the LDS church has Christ failed in his charge to prepare a people for the second coming and all his prophets have gone astray,k there is no scripture to support any of this - one just has to listing to general conference to know that everything is going to plan and according to the Lords will.

[gardener4life]

You know I think sometimes when people are saying the church did this or that, or didn't do this or that they may be mixing up the lay members with the leadership. In other words we could do better to distinguish between 'the church' members that are normal joes on the street and the membership level or the leaders and try not to mix this part up. It would help in a lot of the confusion going around by like 4 or 5 of the above comments I think.

No offense intended.

I think people assume membership basic level people making a few mistakes means the leaders are making mistakes and that isn't the case. You can have the leadership doing what's right and being true and the bottom levels having some struggles following it. Case in point example 1; Old Testament Moses was shown the Lord's plan and Adam up to his point, he was obedient, inspired, and faithful. Caleb, Joshua, and a few other leaders were also obedient but the members of that day struggled with Golden Calf Syndrome. XD

Other points in the scriptures; before Christ was resurrected the Nephite government collapsed but there were still some of the strongest and faithful people out there, such as Nephi, Helaman, etc. (It relates that the government was broken up because of the secret combinations associated with the people that went to Jacobugath, when it explains why that city was burned.)

[marc]

35 Wherefore, I know by this thing which thou hast said, that if the Gentiles have not charity, because of our weakness, that thou wilt prove them, and take away their talent, yea, even that which they have received, and give unto them who shall have more abundantly.

27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand...

73 And there began to be the natural fruit again in the vineyard; and the natural branches began to grow and thrive exceedingly; and the wild branches began to be plucked off and to be cast away; and they did keep the root and the top thereof equal, according to the strength thereof.

74 And thus they labored, with all diligence, according to the commandments of the Lord of the vineyard, even until the bad had been cast away out of the vineyard, and the Lord had preserved unto himself that the trees had become again the natural fruit; and they became like unto one body; and the fruits were equal; and the Lord of the vineyard had preserved unto himself the natural fruit, which was most precious unto him from the beginning.

75 And it came to pass that when the Lord of the vineyard saw that his fruit was good, and that his vineyard was no more corrupt, he called up his servants, and said unto them: Behold, for this last time have we nourished my vineyard; and thou beholdest that I have done according to my will; and I have preserved the natural fruit, that it is good, even like as it was in the beginning. And blessed art thou; for because ye have been diligent in laboring with me in my vineyard, and have kept my commandments, and have brought unto me again the natural fruit, that my vineyard is no more corrupted, and the bad is cast away, behold ye shall have joy with me because of the fruit of my vineyard.

The Gentiles who repented became the covenant people. Nephi emphasized this over and over again. Moroni summarized it when he declared they were given a talent. No other gentile nation besides the repentant Gentiles have been given a talent, but those who "repent." Those who "repent" are the LDS members as a whole. If the LDS church is the only true church then the LDS church must use its talent or lose it. The LDS people must all repent and become one and teach all to become one if they are to become "equal" fruit, "no more corrupt." If they cannot become one heart, one mind, etc, they cannot be Christ's. They cannot become one without possessing charity. If they have not charity, they are nothing. Their glorious beauty is a fading flower...

[Spaced_Out]

The Gentiles who repented became the covenant people. Nephi emphasized this over and over again. Moroni summarized it when he declared they were given a talent. No other gentile nation besides the repentant Gentiles have been given a talent, but those who "repent." Those who "repent" are the LDS members as a whole. If the LDS church is the only true church then the LDS church must use its talent or lose it. The LDS people must all become one and teach all to become one if they are to become "equal" fruit, "no more corrupt." If they cannot become one heart, one mind, etc, they cannot be Christ's. They cannot become one without possessing charity. If they have not charity, they are nothing.

That is why the tribulations are coming and separation of the wheat and tares. They are both growing together. The interpretation of the parable of the 10 virgins is 50% of the temple recommend holders will falter, but the church will never falter as it is governed by the Master from on high and His purposes never fail, and the prophecies are sure.

PS the gentiles were not repentant they killed Joseph Smith and persecuted the church and we know in the last days they will reject the missionaries from among them - and that is the key act that will bring on the tribulations. The gentiles have been given the talent to rule the world and become the most powerful nation on the earth, but have misused that power so the US as it stands today will be destroyed, they never repented despite all the blessings God gave them. It is not the covenant people that will be destroyed.

You mistake the blessings given to the gentile nations as to them having repented, only 1.6% of the USA citizens are LDS and most likely only about half of those are active. The great blessing given to the USA the constitution, wealth and world dominance is not due to repentance and becoming a covenant people. The fixation of gentiles = LDS = Ephraim is totally wrong.

[Alaris]

I absolutely believe at least part of the tribe of Ephraim made its way to Great Britain and explains the mass conversion from the first LDS missionary effort to England. Some had already made their way to USA. This is the foundation that was laid by Ephraim as Ephraim spread the gospel to the gentiles. This is what I believe the scriptures in the Book of Mormon mean when referring to the gospel going to the gentiles first in the last days. Some think it's a melding of both gentiles and Ephraim in the genealogy, and though there may be some truth to that the genealogy of the twelve tribes of Israel is a spiritual genealogy representing a division of progression of souls among God's people as explained in early Abraham 3. So, Ephraim - the spiritually unadulterated Ephraim is preaching the gospel to the gentiles first during the time of the gentiles. It's the gentiles last chance to join Israel - who spiritually is already progressed beyond the gentiles - via the eternal doctrine of adoption. It's all highly symbolic of eternal progression and the *cough* seven levels of mankind as outlined in my series of articles in the link in my signature.


This also explains why their are so many bad drivers.

[Durzan]

I absolutely believe at least part of the tribe of Ephraim made its way to Great Britain and explains the mass conversion from the first LDS missionary effort to England. Some had already made their way to USA. This is the foundation that was laid by Ephraim as Ephraim spread the gospel to the gentiles. This is what I believe the scriptures in the Book of Mormon mean when referring to the gospel going to the gentiles first in the last days. Some think it's a melding of both gentiles and Ephraim in the genealogy, and though there may be some truth to that the genealogy of the twelve tribes of Israel is a spiritual genealogy representing a division of progression of souls among God's people as explained in early Abraham 3. So, Ephraim - the spiritually unadulterated Ephraim is preaching the gospel to the gentiles first during the time of the gentiles. It's the gentiles last chance to join Israel - who spiritually is already progressed beyond the gentiles - via the eternal doctrine of adoption. It's all highly symbolic of eternal progression and the *cough* seven levels of mankind as outlined in my series of articles in the link in my signature.


This also explains why their are so many bad drivers.

When I went on my trip to Europe earlier this year, we visited a little town in England that was very sacred. Prophets and apostles stood at the base of a hill in ages long past, and several people (including John Taylor or WIlford Woodruff) had had visions testifying of such.

[Spaced_Out]

Yes the blood of Ephriam is mixed in the so called western nations/ gentile nations. Joseph Smith is a descendant of Joseph of Egypt and came from England etc...

1Nephi 14 explains it very well, if the gentiles repent when the gospel is preached to them they become the covenant people, and they never will be brought down into captivity. IE the church will prevail (v2). Verses 6 & 7 if they don't repent they will be brought down into captivity and destruction- has the US as a nation in the promised land repented - I would say they are altogether turning away from God - so the western nations more particularity the USA is heading for destruction. Those that have repented will be preserved - there are many scriptures in the D&C that state the righteous will be preserved and full the covenant of God to the house of Israel by Ephraim preaching the gospel to them and bringing them into the fold. It is a total twist to say the prophesied wickedness and rejection of the gospel by the gentiles is referring to the LDS church.


1 Nephi 14:1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks—
2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded.
3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.
4 For behold, this is according to the captivity of the devil, and also according to the justice of God, upon all those who will work wickedness and abomination before him.
5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repenteth not must perish.
6 Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.
7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.

[simpleton]

Ephraim is identified with the gentiles all through the scriptures. Joseph Smith himself is identified as or with the gentiles... Read the Kirtland dedicatory prayer..
Verse 60: Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles...

All through the Book of Mormon we are identified as the gentiles.... Ephraim mixed with the nations so Ephraims identity is lost to the world... But we know through revelation who Ephraim is, or, at least some of them...
In Isaiah, Ephraim in the latter days is in trouble also, so whether we are the "Ephraim " or whether we are "Gentiles" Both it seems are going to get a good spanking. Actually much more than just a spanking. I think that the whole of Isaiah 28 specificly applies to us as LDS as we are identified as Ephraim and all the BofM references to the "Gentiles" applies to us also as we are also identified as Gentiles. Not ture..... So all is not well in Zion...

Not true - That is serous hard core apostate doctrine......

There is no prophecy against the church in the last days- said the church will be established among the gentiles and the Americas will be given to those that repent and join the church... the gentiles will be destroyed but not the Church, as they are not the same thing.
The gentiles are not the church, those that initially joined and built up the church came from among the gentiles and we live among the gentiles and had the same constitution and secular law as the gentiles and so were/are associated with them. When the gentiles time is fulfilled the gospel will be taken from them and the LDS missionaries then sent to the house of Israel, as it is Ephraim responsibility to establish Zoin and assist the rest of the house of Israel. There is no prophecy against Ephraim that applies to the last days. The interpretation that is put on the scripture is way out.

22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem

.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/israel
Members of the tribe of Judah were to be the rulers until the Messiah came (Gen. 49:10; JST, Gen. 50:24 [Appendix]). In the last days the tribe of Ephraim has the privilege of carrying the message of the Restoration of the gospel to the world and gathering scattered Israel (Deut. 33:13–17). The time will come when through the gospel of Jesus Christ, Ephraim will have a leadership role in uniting all the tribes of Israel (Isa. 11:12–13; D&C 133:26–34).

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princ ... l?lang=eng The physical gathering of Israel means that the covenant people will be “gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and shall be established in all their lands of promise” (2 Nephi 9:2). The tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh will be gathered in the Americas. The tribe of Judah will return to the city of Jerusalem and the area surrounding it. The ten lost tribes will receive from the tribe of Ephraim their promised blessings (see D&C 133:26–34).

D&C 133: 30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.
33 And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy.
34 Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows.

Oh but it is true ... And what does "apostate doctrine" have to do with applying/likening scriptures to us? Are we that lifted up on pride that we only apply what we think are positive scriptures about us? Do we really believe that " all is well in Zion" "Zion prospereth". Well that is your God giving right, but, I think we are absolutely living the Babylonian dream that the scriptures and prophets warn/warned us about. I think we are all caught up in the spirit of Babylon from the top to the bottom. Some more some less..... I think Isaiah saw our day and talks about us explicitly in his writings.... I think the book of Mormon prophets saw our day and warned us... I think the latter day prophets saw our day and warned us ...
I do not think we are living anywhere remotely near (spiritually ) to the Zion God wishes to establish. Hence the warnings to us... So the question is are we heeding those warnings?
How about just this little tidbit from Brigham for example:


"He [President Brigham Young] conversed freely on the situation of the Saints in the mountains, and said that he dreaded the time when the Saints would become popular with the world; for he had seen in sorrow, in a dream, or in dreams, this people clothed in the fashions of Babylon and drinking in the spirit of Babylon until one could hardly tell a Saint from a black-leg. And he felt like shouting, "To your tents, Oh Israel!" because it was the only thing that could keep the people pure....

But I suppose he is dead and gone so his words don't mean a thing today...
There are hundreds if not thousands of references to our day related to the " Gentiles" and "Ephraim" that are positive and negative. I say apply both to us as either way we are one or the other... I figure we are both...

And also this idea that Christ is the head of our church and so that automatically means we are guaranteed not to fall away or apostatize is not true. Are we free agents or not? Do we have the right, capability, capacity to fall away? Christ was the head of His church back in the new testament times. We all know what happened there. Seems there was a falling away, completely away.
Where does agency come in. Was there not a war in heaven over that very issue?

[Alaris]

Yes the blood of Ephriam is mixed in the so called western nations/ gentile nations. Joseph Smith is a descendant of Joseph of Egypt and came from England etc...

1Nephi 14 explains it very well, if the gentiles repent when the gospel is preached to them they become the covenant people, and they never will be brought down into captivity. IE the church will prevail (v2). Verses 6 & 7 if they don't repent they will be brought down into captivity and destruction- has the US as a nation in the promised land repented - I would say they are altogether turning away from God - so the western nations more particularity the USA is heading for destruction. Those that have repented will be preserved - there are many scriptures in the D&C that state the righteous will be preserved and full the covenant of God to the house of Israel by Ephraim preaching the gospel to them and bringing them into the fold. It is a total twist to say the prophesied wickedness and rejection of the gospel by the gentiles is referring to the LDS church.


1 Nephi 14:1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks—
2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded.
3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.
4 For behold, this is according to the captivity of the devil, and also according to the justice of God, upon all those who will work wickedness and abomination before him.
5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repenteth not must perish.
6 Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.
7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.

Moreover, Ephraim must /will be ready to crown the ten tribes with glory as prophesied by the Lord:

D&C 133:7 Yea, verily I say unto you again, the time has come when the voice of the Lord is unto you: Go ye out of Babylon; gather ye out from among the nations, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
8 Send forth the elders of my church unto the nations which are afar off; unto the islands of the sea; send forth unto foreign lands; call upon all nations, first upon the Gentiles, and then upon the Jews.
...

26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.

Ephraim is the birthright Tribe. The birthright was passed to him though Joseph. Judah (the person) never had it. Ephraim represents the most spiritually advantanced of Israel which is why Ephraim crowns the rest in glory. Why was Christ born through Judah then? Perhaps Judah is the least of the tribes... The Lord descends below all by being born through the least of the genealogy. Then the Davidic Servant is born through both genealogies of Ephraim and Judah to unite the tribes from the least to the greatest of Israel (D&C 113:4)

D&C 113:4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power

[Spaced_Out]

And also this idea that Christ is the head of our church and so that automatically means we are guaranteed not to fall away or apostatize is not true. Are we free agents or not? Do we have the right, capability, capacity to fall away? Christ was the head of His church back in the new testament times. We all know what happened there. Seems there was a falling away, completely away.
Where does agency come in. Was there not a war in heaven over that very issue?

The church will never fall into apostasy and the Lord will never permit the prophets to lead the members astray, it is as sure as the sun is shining... The stone cut without hands will role forth and cover the earth never to be hindered.
The ancient Christian church was prophesied to fall away and be restored never to fail again. The ancient apostles never lead the church astray - but were all murdered. Likewise with the Nephites the Prophets and apostles never lead the people astray but the people fell into apostasy. The Church of Christ has now been restored to gather the elect and prepare the world for the second coming, do the genealogy and as God liveth it will never fail.

Sure there will be individual apostasy by the members up to 50% of temple recommend holders, but the LDS church will never fail or lead the members astray.
There are so many prophecies that the restoration will be the final one to prepare the earth for the coming of the Bridegroom, and the 'bride' LDS church will be ready. It is truly very apostate to think the church can fail or the prophets have or will lead the members astray. Apostasy is to go against the apostles of the Lord.

2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded.

[Spaced_Out]

Ephraim is the birthright Tribe. The birthright was passed to him though Joseph. Judah never had it. Ephraim represents the most spiritually advantanced of Israel which is why Ephraim crowns the rest in glory. Why was Christ born through Judah then? Perhaps Judah is the least of the tribes... The Lord descends below all by being born through the least of the genealogy. Then the Davidic Servant is born through both genealogies of Ephraim and Judah to unite the tribes from the least to the greatest of Israel (D&C 113:4)

D&C 113:4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power

It is Joseph Smith - a very clear explanation below. There is no confusion of doubt on the matter. Read the section from the link the formatting is much better. Quotes from many prophets and apostles, Moroni in his sermon to JS, JS patriarchal blessing, and the things JS accomplished leave no doubt.
https://www.gospeldoctrine.com/doctrine ... ection-113

DC 113:1 Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in... the 11th chapter of Isaiah.
The first 5 verses of Isaiah 11 read:

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

The first illuminating doctrine comes from the insightful question which identifies "the stem of Jesse" as the subject of the next 4 verses. How did the questioner know that Isaiah 11:2-5 was talking about the stem of Jesse instead of the rod or the Branch? The questioner may well have been the Prophet Joseph. His natural scriptural insight could have identified the stem of Jesse as the focus for the next verses.

DC 113:2 Verily thus saith the Lord: it is Christ
Jesse was the father of king David. Christ was born in mortality through the lineage of David and Jesse-both of the tribe of Judah according to the prophecy that the Messiah should come through Judah (Gen. 49:10).

DC 113:3 What is the rod spoken of... that should come of the Stem of Jesse
The imagery here is that of a tree-with roots, stem, branch, and rod. A stem is a trunk or main branch. A rod would be a smaller offshoot of the branch. Sustenance for a tree would start with the roots, go through the stem, feed the branch, and finish in the fruit of the rod.

The point of the imagery is to show the interconnectedness of the different parts. Jesse is represented as the ancestor of both Christ and the rod-servant. The stem is Christ. The branch is also Christ (Zech. 3:7-10; 6:12-13). Who then is the rod?

Before answering that question, let's now take a look at the poetic device at play in Isaiah 11:1. Parallelism is common in Isaiah's writing:

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard shall like down with the kid

Isaiah 11:15 The Lord shall... shake his hand over the river,
And smite it in the seven streams

However, Isaiah 11:1 is a case of inverted parallelism. In the second line, inverted parallelism simply reverses the order of ideas presented.

Isaiah 2:3 for out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 11:13 Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

Isaiah 63:2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel,
And thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

Isaiah 11:1 a rod out of the stem of Jesse,
And a branch shall grow out of his roots.

Note that the concepts in blue match each other, as do the concepts in red. Now we can understand that the stem of Jesse and the Branch are the same individual-Christ. This Branch, then, will grow out of the roots of the rod. That is, the Branch and the rod come from the same ancestor, Jesse. Hereby they are connected. In fact, that is the whole point of the imagery to connect the dots between David's father by lineage with Christ and the rod-servant.

DC 113:4 it is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim
The rod-servant is Joseph Smith. His bloodline extends back through the ages to both Jesse and Ephraim, to both the tribes of Judah and Joseph. What proof do we have of this truth? The word of Isaiah and the latter-day prophets.

"The Book of Mormon contains an important prophecy about a descendant of the ancient Joseph who would also be named Joseph and who would do a great work of salvation among the Israelites to bring them to the knowledge of God's covenants in the last days. (2 Ne. 3:6-11, 14-15.) Joseph Smith, Jr., is this Joseph. His patriarchal blessing identifies him as the heir to the promises of Ephraim (son of the ancient Joseph), and he is called a pure Ephraimite by Brigham Young. (DS 3:250-54; WTP, pp. 125-27)

"There is not the same recorded evidence of Joseph Smith being a descendant of Jesse through the tribe of Judah. However, there were occasions in earlier Church history when a number of the brethren, including Joseph Smith, claimed that they shared lineage with Jesus in the tribe of Judah. (See Life of Heber C. Kimball [1988], p. 185; JD 4:248; Journal of President Rudger Clawson, pp. 374-75; Ivins Journal, p. 21.)

"In short, Joseph Smith fulfills the requirements as a descendant of Joseph through his son Ephraim. He was also a descendant of Judah through Jesse, and he may have descended through the same lineage as Jesus." (Victor Ludow, Isaiah: Prophet, Seer, and Poet, p. 172)

Brigham Young

It was decreed in the counsels of eternity, long before the foundations of the earth were laid, that he, Joseph Smith, should be the man, in the last dispensation of this world, to bring forth the word of God to the people, and receive the fullness of the keys and power of the Priesthood of the Son of God. The Lord had his eyes upon him, and upon his father, and upon his father's father, and upon their progenitors clear back to Abraham, and from Abraham to the flood, from the flood to Enoch, and from Enoch to Adam. He has watched that family and that blood as it has circulated from its fountain to the birth of that man. He was fore-ordained in eternity to preside over this last dispensation. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 108)

DC 113:5 what is the root of Jesse spoken of
Based on the tree of life imagery, one would expect the root of Jesse to precede Jesse, perhaps the ancestor of Jesse. Yet, the explanation is that the root is a descendant of Jesse. The inverted parallelism device teaches us that this root is the same as the rod-servant, i.e., Joseph Smith.

Now we are going to paraphrase Isaiah 11:1 so that there can be no misunderstanding:

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots

In other words:

And there shall come forth a man named Joseph Smith as a servant in the hands of Christ, and the Messiah shall come through his same lineage, i.e., the house of Jesse.

DC 113:6 it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom
Who fits this description better than the Prophet Joseph?

John Taylor made this remarkable statement: "Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only , for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it." (D&C 135:3) The skeptic might argue that any individual so important would be spoken of in the Bible. To this claim, we would agree wholeheartedly. We would call upon the writings of Isaiah to demonstrate that Joseph Smith was spoken about in the 11th chapter of Isaiah. We would remind them that the Book of Mormon is spoken of in Isaiah 29 and Ezekiel 37. We could go on and on but that is not the point. The point is that Joseph Smith's ministry was tied to Christ's ministry by the writing of Isaiah. Christ would not come a second time until Joseph had performed his mission to restore the priesthood, keys, and ordinances that would keep the world from being destroyed at the Second Coming.

Bruce R. McConkie

Are we amiss in saying that the prophet here mentioned is Joseph Smith, to whom the priesthood came, who received the keys of the kingdom, and who raised the ensign for the gathering of the Lord's people in our dispensation? And is he not also the "servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power"? (D&C 113:4-6.) Those whose ears are attuned to the whisperings of the Infinite will know the meaning of these things. (The Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1982], 340)

Bruce R. McConkie

When Moroni came to Joseph Smith on September 21, 1823, that holy messenger "quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled." (JS-H 1:40) (Ensign, Oct. 1973, 81)

[Jonesy]

I thought this poll was interesting:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45903

[Alaris]

Ephraim is the birthright Tribe. The birthright was passed to him though Joseph. Judah never had it. Ephraim represents the most spiritually advantanced of Israel which is why Ephraim crowns the rest in glory. Why was Christ born through Judah then? Perhaps Judah is the least of the tribes... The Lord descends below all by being born through the least of the genealogy. Then the Davidic Servant is born through both genealogies of Ephraim and Judah to unite the tribes from the least to the greatest of Israel (D&C 113:4)

D&C 113:4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power

It is Joseph Smith - a very clear explanation below. There is no confusion of doubt on the matter. Read the section from the link the formatting is much better. Quotes from many prophets and apostles, Moroni in his sermon to JS, JS patriarchal blessing, and the things JS accomplished leave no doubt.
https://www.gospeldoctrine.com/doctrine ... ection-113

DC 113:1 Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in... the 11th chapter of Isaiah.
The first 5 verses of Isaiah 11 read:

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

The first illuminating doctrine comes from the insightful question which identifies "the stem of Jesse" as the subject of the next 4 verses. How did the questioner know that Isaiah 11:2-5 was talking about the stem of Jesse instead of the rod or the Branch? The questioner may well have been the Prophet Joseph. His natural scriptural insight could have identified the stem of Jesse as the focus for the next verses.

DC 113:2 Verily thus saith the Lord: it is Christ
Jesse was the father of king David. Christ was born in mortality through the lineage of David and Jesse-both of the tribe of Judah according to the prophecy that the Messiah should come through Judah (Gen. 49:10).

DC 113:3 What is the rod spoken of... that should come of the Stem of Jesse
The imagery here is that of a tree-with roots, stem, branch, and rod. A stem is a trunk or main branch. A rod would be a smaller offshoot of the branch. Sustenance for a tree would start with the roots, go through the stem, feed the branch, and finish in the fruit of the rod.

The point of the imagery is to show the interconnectedness of the different parts. Jesse is represented as the ancestor of both Christ and the rod-servant. The stem is Christ. The branch is also Christ (Zech. 3:7-10; 6:12-13). Who then is the rod?

Before answering that question, let's now take a look at the poetic device at play in Isaiah 11:1. Parallelism is common in Isaiah's writing:

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard shall like down with the kid

Isaiah 11:15 The Lord shall... shake his hand over the river,
And smite it in the seven streams

However, Isaiah 11:1 is a case of inverted parallelism. In the second line, inverted parallelism simply reverses the order of ideas presented.

Isaiah 2:3 for out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 11:13 Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

Isaiah 63:2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel,
And thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

Isaiah 11:1 a rod out of the stem of Jesse,
And a branch shall grow out of his roots.

Note that the concepts in blue match each other, as do the concepts in red. Now we can understand that the stem of Jesse and the Branch are the same individual-Christ. This Branch, then, will grow out of the roots of the rod. That is, the Branch and the rod come from the same ancestor, Jesse. Hereby they are connected. In fact, that is the whole point of the imagery to connect the dots between David's father by lineage with Christ and the rod-servant.

DC 113:4 it is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim
The rod-servant is Joseph Smith. His bloodline extends back through the ages to both Jesse and Ephraim, to both the tribes of Judah and Joseph. What proof do we have of this truth? The word of Isaiah and the latter-day prophets.

"The Book of Mormon contains an important prophecy about a descendant of the ancient Joseph who would also be named Joseph and who would do a great work of salvation among the Israelites to bring them to the knowledge of God's covenants in the last days. (2 Ne. 3:6-11, 14-15.) Joseph Smith, Jr., is this Joseph. His patriarchal blessing identifies him as the heir to the promises of Ephraim (son of the ancient Joseph), and he is called a pure Ephraimite by Brigham Young. (DS 3:250-54; WTP, pp. 125-27)

"There is not the same recorded evidence of Joseph Smith being a descendant of Jesse through the tribe of Judah. However, there were occasions in earlier Church history when a number of the brethren, including Joseph Smith, claimed that they shared lineage with Jesus in the tribe of Judah. (See Life of Heber C. Kimball [1988], p. 185; JD 4:248; Journal of President Rudger Clawson, pp. 374-75; Ivins Journal, p. 21.)

"In short, Joseph Smith fulfills the requirements as a descendant of Joseph through his son Ephraim. He was also a descendant of Judah through Jesse, and he may have descended through the same lineage as Jesus." (Victor Ludow, Isaiah: Prophet, Seer, and Poet, p. 172)

Brigham Young

It was decreed in the counsels of eternity, long before the foundations of the earth were laid, that he, Joseph Smith, should be the man, in the last dispensation of this world, to bring forth the word of God to the people, and receive the fullness of the keys and power of the Priesthood of the Son of God. The Lord had his eyes upon him, and upon his father, and upon his father's father, and upon their progenitors clear back to Abraham, and from Abraham to the flood, from the flood to Enoch, and from Enoch to Adam. He has watched that family and that blood as it has circulated from its fountain to the birth of that man. He was fore-ordained in eternity to preside over this last dispensation. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 108)

DC 113:5 what is the root of Jesse spoken of
Based on the tree of life imagery, one would expect the root of Jesse to precede Jesse, perhaps the ancestor of Jesse. Yet, the explanation is that the root is a descendant of Jesse. The inverted parallelism device teaches us that this root is the same as the rod-servant, i.e., Joseph Smith.

Now we are going to paraphrase Isaiah 11:1 so that there can be no misunderstanding:

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots

In other words:

And there shall come forth a man named Joseph Smith as a servant in the hands of Christ, and the Messiah shall come through his same lineage, i.e., the house of Jesse.

DC 113:6 it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom
Who fits this description better than the Prophet Joseph?

John Taylor made this remarkable statement: "Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only , for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it." (D&C 135:3) The skeptic might argue that any individual so important would be spoken of in the Bible. To this claim, we would agree wholeheartedly. We would call upon the writings of Isaiah to demonstrate that Joseph Smith was spoken about in the 11th chapter of Isaiah. We would remind them that the Book of Mormon is spoken of in Isaiah 29 and Ezekiel 37. We could go on and on but that is not the point. The point is that Joseph Smith's ministry was tied to Christ's ministry by the writing of Isaiah. Christ would not come a second time until Joseph had performed his mission to restore the priesthood, keys, and ordinances that would keep the world from being destroyed at the Second Coming.

Bruce R. McConkie

Are we amiss in saying that the prophet here mentioned is Joseph Smith, to whom the priesthood came, who received the keys of the kingdom, and who raised the ensign for the gathering of the Lord's people in our dispensation? And is he not also the "servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power"? (D&C 113:4-6.) Those whose ears are attuned to the whisperings of the Infinite will know the meaning of these things. (The Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1982], 340)

Bruce R. McConkie

When Moroni came to Joseph Smith on September 21, 1823, that holy messenger "quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled." (JS-H 1:40) (Ensign, Oct. 1973, 81)

It's not but thanks. I know it takes you way out of your comfort zone, but reread Isaiah. The things the Davidic Servant does - gather Israel - build ZION - yeah Joseph Smith did not do those things. He wasn't healed .. you've read all this. I can't make you see it. But putting Joseph Smith in large font, bold, and blue certainly doesn't make me see it your way How do you explain away Joseph Smith himself saying there'd be another David who inherits the Kingdom? The marred servant who is healed? (Joseph wasn't healed.) The hidden servant - Joseph Smith wasn't hidden!

[Spaced_Out]

It's not but thanks. I know it takes you way out of your comfort zone, but reread Isaiah. The things the Davidic Servant does - gather Israel - build ZION - yeah Joseph Smith did not do those things. He wasn't healed .. you've read all this. I can't make you see it. But putting Joseph Smith in large font, bold, and blue certainly doesn't make me see it your way How do you explain away Joseph Smith himself saying there'd be another David who inherits the Kingdom? The marred servant who is healed? (Joseph wasn't healed.) The hidden servant - Joseph Smith wasn't hidden!

Joseph Smith restored the church had the gospel preached to the Americas, Europe and took the word to the Lamanites, restored the work for the dead. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon was/is a sign to the house of Israel that the gospel has been restored and the gathering started (3 Nephi). JS is the head of this dispensation and still plays a very active part in it.
Just as the scriptures say Jesus Christ will preach the gospel to the dead, but in fact He never did - he just set up the preaching to the dead in the spirit world when he visited there after his Crusifiction.

It is official LDS doctrine in the manuals and many quotes from large number of latter day prophets, Moroni promise to JS etc... As to me and my house will follow the teachings of the scriptures and guidance from the church. To say some person needs to be raised up to correct the LDS church to me is totally apostate and a doctrine I will never accept and is way out of line of my understanding of the scriptures. In effect you are saying the many prophets quoted in the manual that I referenced to are incorrect and you are correct as you have some greater hidden knowledge. Over the years I have never found official church doctrine and that stated in the manuals to be wrong.

There is also a lot of confusion with other scriptures taking about a 'Mighty and Strong One' that refer to a total different person and events that are all being misrepresented. Many of the other scriptures that are taken to refer to this servant are in fact referring to Jesus Christ. As to D&C to 113:4 no doubt is it Joseph Smith.

[Durzan]

Even IF Joseph Smith fulfilled all the prophecies of the Marred Servant (Which, to be clear, he didn't, although he did fufill or partially fufill most of them), prophecies can be fulfilled more than once.

LDSA had it right when he said that the life of Joseph Smith was a foreshadowing of the life of the Marred Servant, and the gospel as established to be true in the church is likewise a foreshadowing of what the Gospel shall be during the Millennium.

Unlike LDSA however, I believe that the leaders of the church have not been led astray... at least not yet. IF the church in general falls into a state of apostasy (a big if), then it will fall to the Marred Servant to get whats left of the church back on track. One thing to note is that I believe that the Marred Servant will be a young man raised to the office of Apostle shortly before a disastrous even hits the church. He alone will survive this disaster, and for a time many will think him to have died along with his contemporaries. But the Lord will preserve him, even as He preserved Elijah,Ether, and Moroni during their times of sorrow.

[Alaris]

To say some person needs to be raised up to correct the LDS church to me is totally apostate and a doctrine I will never accept and is way out of line of my understanding of the scriptures.

First of all, I never said that and neither did the Lord. You're word swapping to support your point of view by deliberately exchanging words with different meaning - not a fruit of a sincere truth seeker but perhaps one of those who would rather set tighter boundaries around truth to feel more comfortable. Let me help you disentangle back to "order" from "correct"

D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

This is a prophecy from the Lord to Joseph Smith about someone else other than the person the Lord is talking to ... Joseph Smith. Else, when did Joseph Smith set things in order. Here's a possible explanation - I sincerely ask you to open your mind to this possibility with a prayer. Is something that is not in complete order necessarily wrong or in need of correction? Of course not. The LDS church has the fulness of the Gospel but does not contain every truth nor every ordinance, and the "Thus saith the Lord" prophecies are missing are they not? This is what is to be set in order in my very humble opinion. I believe the apostles are aware of this.

D&C 113:4 - Joseph Smith is not of Judah.

Here is the Rod scripture 113:4 references:

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Has Joseph Smith done this? No.

In effect you are saying the many prophets quoted in the manual that I referenced to are incorrect and you are correct as you have some greater hidden knowledge. Over the years I have never found official church doctrine and that stated in the manuals to be wrong.

I am not as the quotes you mentioned about Joseph Smith by prophets and apostles were about Joseph Smith and none of them were about the One Mighty and Strong. Victor Ludlow is not a prophet, seer, revelator, so we can safely disregard his opinion. Heber C. Kimball's quote - if that is him and not the dude writing the journal - is hearsay and not a prophet or apostle declaring that Joseph was the OMAS. The BY quote about a descendant of Joseph named Joseph is about Joseph just like the quote from Joseph about David is about someone named David.

"the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage" (TPJS, p. 339)

There is also a lot of confusion with other scriptures taking about a 'Mighty and Strong One' that refer to a total different person and events that are all being misrepresented. Many of the other scriptures that are taken to refer to this servant are in fact referring to Jesus Christ. As to D&C to 113:4 no doubt is it Joseph Smith.

Nope. Joseph Smith is the one revealing D&C 113:4 - if it were about he himself, then he could easily have said as much or expounded as much afterward. He has not, and no prophet since him has connected Joseph Smith to that prophecy. He did say the throne and Kingdom of David would be given to another David. You're now saying there are other scriptures about an OMAS that refer to another person - so that other person is not Joseph Smith? You don't need to answer that for me. The OMAS = The Rod = Ezekiel 37 = Isaiah 11 = D&C 113. Please read Isaiah - it's all about how this man is called and what he actually does - gather Israel - like all of it and unite the kingdom again. These prophecies are all over the place. The "Lord" who stands at the eastern gate is not Jesus Christ - it is His Mighty and Strong One on whom is laid much power - and again in Isaiah you'll see there are all sorts of displays of physical power - the kinds that Enoch displayed and Moses - the tone of which does not match with the events of Joseph Smith's life .. at .. all. You are in self denial and will never be able to step out of it until you are able to let go and realize you've set the limits by latching on to the milk as prophesied in Isaiah 28. I'm guessing you are of Ephraim.

The apostles and prophets today could easily lay this to rest and just come out and say, "The OMAS was / is Joseph Smith." Only they have not. If those were the best evidences you could find then you'll need to keep digging my friend - though hopefully with a prayer that humbly requests for true understanding rather than whatever you can find to support being "right."

And yes - I do have special knowledge, though I do not claim this knowledge above and beyond what the apostles have like some do. I applied the promise of ask, seek, and knock - asking the Lord to show me and teach me line upon line and precept upon precept, willingly submitting to the Lord by tell him I'd give up any sin and any false conception / false tradition - to know the truth. The first whisperings of the spirit were hard for me to accept, but I did. This special knowledge is available to anyone willing to go through the same steps that are freely provided to all.

1 Nephi 10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

[Spaced_Out]

D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

This is a prophecy from the Lord to Joseph Smith about someone else other than the person the Lord is talking to ... Joseph Smith. Else, when did Joseph Smith set things in order. Here's a possible explanation - I sincerely ask you to open your mind to this possibility with a prayer. Is something that is not in complete order necessarily wrong or in need of correction? Of course not. The LDS church has the fulness of the Gospel but does not contain every truth nor every ordinance, and the "Thus saith the Lord" prophecies are missing are they not? This is what is to be set in order in my very humble opinion. I believe the apostles are aware of this.

It was to the presiding Bishop of the Church at he time of the prophecy, who's job it was to divide up the inheritance of Zion to the members. The prophecy has come and gone, old history. It is not the same person as in D&C 113...