Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Discuss the last days, Zion, second coming, emergency preparedness, alternative health, etc.
Post Reply
Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Spaced_Out »

A bit of emphasis added. thanks for posting.
sushi_chef wrote: December 16th, 2017, 11:32 pm who is joseph??!!

"PATRIARCHAL BLESSING GIVEN BY JOSEPH SMITH, SR., PATRIARCH OF THE CHURCH OF THE LATTER DAY SAINTS, TO HIS SON, JOSEPH SMITH, JR., ON 9 DECEMBER 1834.

Joseph Smith, junior was born in Sharon, Windsor County, Vermont, December 23, 1805.

Joseph, my son, I lay my hands upon thy head in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to confirm upon thee a father's blessing. The Lord thy God has called thee by name out of the heavens: thou hast heard his voice from on high from time to time, even in thy youth. The hand of the angel of his presence has been extended toward thee by which thou hast been lifted up and sustained; yea, the Lord has delivered thee from the hands of thine enemies and thou hast been made to rejoice in his salvation: thou hast sought to know his ways, and from thy childhood thou hast meditated much upon the great things of his law. Thou hast suffered much in thy youth, and the poverty and afflictions of thy father's family have been a grief to thy soul. Thou hast desired to see them delivered from bondage, for thou hast loved them with a perfect love. Thou hast stood by thy father, and like Shem, would have covered his nakedness, rather than see him exposed to shame: when the daughters of the Gentiles laughed, thy heart has been moved with a just anger to avenge thy kindred. Thou hast been an obedient son: the commands of thy father and the reproofs of thy mother, thou hast respected and obeyed - for all these things the Lord my God will bless thee. Thou hast been called, even in thy youth to the great work of the Lord: to do a work in this generation which no man would do as thyself, in all things according to the will of the Lord. A marvelous work and a wonder has the Lord wrought by thy hand, even that which shall prepare the way for the remnants of his people to come in among the Gentiles, with their fulness, as the tribes of Israel are restored.

I bless thee with the blessings of thy fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and even the blessings of thy father Joseph, the son of Jacob. Behold, he looked after his posterity in the last days, when they should be scattered and driven by the Gentiles, and wept before the Lord: he sought diligently to know from whence the son should come who should bring forth the word of the Lord, by which they might be enlightened, and brought back to the true fold, and his eyes beheld thee, my son: his heart rejoiced and his soul was satisfied, and he said, As my blessings are to extend to the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills, as my father's blessing prevailed above the blessings of his progen(i)tor, and as my branches are to run over the wall, and my seed are to inherit the choice land whereon the Zion of God shall stand in the last days, from among my seed, scattered with the Gentiles, shall a choice Seer arise whose bowles shall be as a fountain of truth, whose loins shall be girded with the girdle of righteousness, whose hands shall be lifted with acceptance before the God of Jacob to turn away his anger from his annointed, whose heart shall meditate great wisdom, whose intelligence shall circumscribe and comprehend the deep things of God, and whose mouth shall utter the law of the just: His feet shall stand upon the neck of his enemies, and he shall walk upon the ashes of those who seek his destruction: with wine and oil shall he be sustained, and he shall feed upon the heritage of Jacob his father: the just shall desire his society, and the upright in heart shall be his companions: No weapon formed against him shall prosper, and though the wicked mar him for a little season, he shall be like one rising up in the heat of wine - he shall roar in his strength, and the Lord shall put to flight his persecutors: he shall be blessed like the fruitful olive, and his memory shall be as sweet as the choice cluster of the first ripe grapes. Like a shief fully ripe, gathered into the garner, so shall he stand before the Lord, having produced a hundred fold. Thus spake my father Joseph. Therefore, my son, I know for a surety that those things will be fulfilled, and I confirm upon thee all these blessings.

Thou shalt like to do the work which the Lord shall command thee: Thou shalt hold the Keys of this ministry, even the presidency of this church, both in time and in eternity. Thy heart shall be enlarged, and thou shalt be able to fill up the measure of thy days according to the will of the Lord. Thou shalt speak the word of the Lord and the earth shall tremble; the mountains shall move and the rivers shall turn out of their course. Thou shalt escape the edge of the sword, and put to flight the armies of the wicked. At thy word the lame shall walk, the deaf shall hear and the blind shall see. Thou shalt be gathered to Zion and in the goodly land thou shalt enjoy thine inheritance; thy children and thy children's children to the latest generation; for thy name and the names of thy posterity shall be recorded in the book of the Lord, even in the book of blessings and genealogies, for their joy and benefit forever. And now, my son, what more shall I say? Thou art as a fruitful olive and a choice vine: thou shalt be laden with precious fruit. Thousands and tens of thousands shall come to a knowledge of the truth through thy ministry, and thou shalt rejoice with them in the Celestial Kingdom:

Thou shalt stand upon the earth when it shall reel to and fro as a drunken man, and be removed out of its place: thou shalt stand when the mighty judgments go forth to the destruction of the wicked: thou shalt stand on Mount Zion when the tribes of Jacob come shouting from the north, and with thy brethren, the sons of Ephraim, crown them in the name of Jesus Christ[/color][/i][/b]: Thou shalt see thy Redeemer come in the clouds of heaven, and with the just receive the hallowed throng with shouts of hallalujahs, praise the Lord. Amen

(Joseph Smith, Sr., Patriarchal Blessing Book no. 1, Historical Department, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah.)
"
https://user.xmission.com/~research/about/patb1.htm
:arrow:
Last edited by Spaced_Out on December 17th, 2017, 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Spaced_Out »

alaris wrote: December 16th, 2017, 11:18 pm Thats a great quote from Elder McConkie. Only he doesn't answer any of the questions he asks lol. :) my ears are certainly attuned to the infinite and can only assume he would answer the questions the same way as I.. Especially since the Judah pedigree was never established with certainty.

As for Moroni quoting Isaiah, absolutely Isaiah 11 was about to be fulfilled especially from the perspective of God and his angels. Again read verse 4. When did Joseph slay the wicked with the breath of his lips? Read isaiah already with a humble prayer and stop spending time trying to convince someone who has received many heavenly witnesses that the OMAS is the one who gathers Israel rather than the one who laid the foundation.

Why would the Lord reveal cryptically to Joseph Smith about Joseph Smith? You haven't addressed any of the other questions... And they aren't meant for you to explain them but to discover them along with me brother. I agree with Durzan that the Davidic Servant will most likely be younger than the apostles, and his ascension will absolutely be one of a significantly divisive nature.... A sifting of wheat. Those who think they know it all will never be ready to receive.

I wrote a talk in church years ago where I was going to look for quotes about Joseph Smith warning about the saints being too open minded and being too closed minded. You'll never guess which quotes were in abundance. "Would that I could tell you who I am," the prophet said. I doubt "the one mighty and strong" would have been a tough sell. Phanuel the archangel on the other hand... That may have been a tough one.
The historic context of the one mighty and strong was a reprove to the current presiding Bishop who was not quit faithful in his duties and the Lord threatened to replace him with one who was mighty and strong. There is no other interpretation and it does not relate to D&C 113

D&C113 was answers given by the Prophet Joseph Smith to members that were asking questions on Isiah. He gave the members asking the question very specific details on who the person would be/is, they are then left for themselves to figure it out - the Lord did not reveal anything cryptically to JS.

These two scriptures taken into historic context have total different meaning to what you think.

http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/arc ... trong9.htm
The mission of the One Mighty and Strong given in D&C 85:7 includes two activities:
1. "to set in order the house of God"
2. "to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints..."

As we investigate the first of these two activities, we note immediately that at the time the letter (from which section 85 was taken) was written, both the Church in Jackson County, Missouri and the process of arranging by lot the inheritances of the Saints were essentially "out of order." As discussed above, great difficulties had arisen with the attempts by Church members in Missouri to implement the full law of consecration. Repeated disagreements between the Prophet Joseph Smith and the Bishop of Jackson County, Bishop Edward Partridge, demonstrate this to be so. In 1905, the First Presidency issued a statement where they observed:

On the occasion of the Prophet's first visit to Independence, Missouri -- Edward Partridge accompanied him -- in the meetings and conferences held upon the land of Zion, Bishop Partridge several times strenuously opposed the measures of the Prophet, and was sharply reproved by the latter for his unbelief and hardness of heart... The Bishop, moreover, was reproved for his "blindness of heart and unbelief," and warned of the danger of falling from his high station, in a revelation given in August, 1831, while both he and the Prophet were still in Missouri:
"Yea, for this cause I have sent you hither, and have selected my servant Edward partridge, and have appointed unto him his mission in this land; but it he repent not of his sins, which are unbelief and blindness of heart, let him take heed lest he fall." (D&C 58:14-15)
All of the foregoing occurred during the first visit of the Prophet to Missouri.
In the latter part of April, 1832, the Prophet again visited the center place of Zion -- Independence, Missouri. There were still ill-feelings existing among the brethren, especially between Elder [Sidney] Rigdon and Bishop Partridge, but those difficulties were adjusted, and Bishop Partridge, in the conference that was held on the 26th of April, gave to the Prophet the right hand of fellowship in behalf of the Church in Missouri, and acknowledge him to be the President of the High Priesthood of the Church. (James R. Clark compiler, Messages of the First Presidency, Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1970, 4:113-114.)
Even after this reconciliation of April of 1832, problems continued to fester. It was in that atmosphere that Joseph Smith wrote of one mighty and strong being sent "to set in order the house of God" and "to arrange by lot the inheritances of the Saints."
Notwithstanding the weaknesses Bishop Partridge demonstrated during the trials mentioned above, he appears to have repented soon thereafter for in 1835, the Lord spoke through Joseph Smith to observe:

Behold, I am well pleased with my servant Isaac Morley, and my servant Edward Partridge, because of the integrity of their hearts in laboring in my vineyard, for the salvation of the souls of men. Verily I say unto you, their sins are forgiven them... (HC 2:302-303.)
Last edited by Spaced_Out on December 17th, 2017, 12:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Spaced_Out »

BeNotDeceived wrote: December 16th, 2017, 10:20 pm
Spaced_Out wrote: December 16th, 2017, 9:57 pm
... and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth.”

Where be the end of the earth :?:
From JS patriarchal blessing it is the uttermost bounds of the everlasting hills.. 8-)
by which they might be enlightened, and brought back to the true fold, and his eyes beheld thee, my son: his heart rejoiced and his soul was satisfied, and he said, As my blessings are to extend to the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills, as my father's blessing prevailed above the blessings of his progen(i)tor, and as my branches are to run over the wall, and my seed are to inherit the choice land whereon the Zion of God shall stand in the last days, from among my seed, scattered with the Gentiles, shall a choice Seer arise whose bowles shall be as a fountain of truth, whose loins shall be girded with the girdle of righteousness,

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Alaris »

Spaced_Out wrote: December 17th, 2017, 12:09 am
alaris wrote: December 16th, 2017, 11:18 pm Thats a great quote from Elder McConkie. Only he doesn't answer any of the questions he asks lol. :) my ears are certainly attuned to the infinite and can only assume he would answer the questions the same way as I.. Especially since the Judah pedigree was never established with certainty.

As for Moroni quoting Isaiah, absolutely Isaiah 11 was about to be fulfilled especially from the perspective of God and his angels. Again read verse 4. When did Joseph slay the wicked with the breath of his lips? Read isaiah already with a humble prayer and stop spending time trying to convince someone who has received many heavenly witnesses that the OMAS is the one who gathers Israel rather than the one who laid the foundation.

Why would the Lord reveal cryptically to Joseph Smith about Joseph Smith? You haven't addressed any of the other questions... And they aren't meant for you to explain them but to discover them along with me brother. I agree with Durzan that the Davidic Servant will most likely be younger than the apostles, and his ascension will absolutely be one of a significantly divisive nature.... A sifting of wheat. Those who think they know it all will never be ready to receive.

I wrote a talk in church years ago where I was going to look for quotes about Joseph Smith warning about the saints being too open minded and being too closed minded. You'll never guess which quotes were in abundance. "Would that I could tell you who I am," the prophet said. I doubt "the one mighty and strong" would have been a tough sell. Phanuel the archangel on the other hand... That may have been a tough one.
The historic context of the one mighty and strong was a reprove to the current presiding Bishop who was not quit faithful in his duties and the Lord threatened to replace him with one who was mighty and strong. There is no other interpretation and it does not relate to D&C 113

D&C113 was answers given by the Prophet Joseph Smith to members that were asking questions on Isiah. He gave the members asking the question very specific details on who the person would be/is, they are then left for themselves to figure it out - the Lord did not reveal anything cryptically to JS.

These two scriptures taken into historic context have total different meaning to what you think.
Just try praying with a humble heart and ask to receive ready and willing to accept any reveals that may be different or even difficult to accept. See what happens. We can keep going back and forth. None of the other parts of D&C 85:7 make any sense being the presiding bishop. And your nothing cryptic statement conflicts with the fact that under your premise Joseph Smith is answering questions about himself without revealing such. That's cryptic.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Spaced_Out »

alaris wrote: December 17th, 2017, 12:21 am Just try praying with a humble heart and ask to receive ready and willing to accept any reveals that may be different or even difficult to accept. See what happens. We can keep going back and forth. None of the other parts of D&C 85:7 make any sense being the presiding bishop. And your nothing cryptic statement conflicts with the fact that under your premise Joseph Smith is answering questions about himself without revealing such. That's cryptic.
Historic context
http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/arc ... trong9.htm
The mission of the One Mighty and Strong given in D&C 85:7 includes two activities:
1. "to set in order the house of God"
2. "to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints..."

As we investigate the first of these two activities, we note immediately that at the time the letter (from which section 85 was taken) was written, both the Church in Jackson County, Missouri and the process of arranging by lot the inheritances of the Saints were essentially "out of order." As discussed above, great difficulties had arisen with the attempts by Church members in Missouri to implement the full law of consecration. Repeated disagreements between the Prophet Joseph Smith and the Bishop of Jackson County, Bishop Edward Partridge, demonstrate this to be so. In 1905, the First Presidency issued a statement where they observed:

On the occasion of the Prophet's first visit to Independence, Missouri -- Edward Partridge accompanied him -- in the meetings and conferences held upon the land of Zion, Bishop Partridge several times strenuously opposed the measures of the Prophet, and was sharply reproved by the latter for his unbelief and hardness of heart... The Bishop, moreover, was reproved for his "blindness of heart and unbelief," and warned of the danger of falling from his high station, in a revelation given in August, 1831, while both he and the Prophet were still in Missouri:
"Yea, for this cause I have sent you hither, and have selected my servant Edward partridge, and have appointed unto him his mission in this land; but it he repent not of his sins, which are unbelief and blindness of heart, let him take heed lest he fall." (D&C 58:14-15)
All of the foregoing occurred during the first visit of the Prophet to Missouri.
In the latter part of April, 1832, the Prophet again visited the center place of Zion -- Independence, Missouri. There were still ill-feelings existing among the brethren, especially between Elder [Sidney] Rigdon and Bishop Partridge, but those difficulties were adjusted, and Bishop Partridge, in the conference that was held on the 26th of April, gave to the Prophet the right hand of fellowship in behalf of the Church in Missouri, and acknowledge him to be the President of the High Priesthood of the Church. (James R. Clark compiler, Messages of the First Presidency, Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1970, 4:113-114.)
Even after this reconciliation of April of 1832, problems continued to fester. It was in that atmosphere that Joseph Smith wrote of one mighty and strong being sent "to set in order the house of God" and "to arrange by lot the inheritances of the Saints."
Notwithstanding the weaknesses Bishop Partridge demonstrated during the trials mentioned above, he appears to have repented soon thereafter for in 1835, the Lord spoke through Joseph Smith to observe:

Behold, I am well pleased with my servant Isaac Morley, and my servant Edward Partridge, because of the integrity of their hearts in laboring in my vineyard, for the salvation of the souls of men. Verily I say unto you, their sins are forgiven them... (HC 2:302-303.)

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Alaris »

Spaced_Out wrote: December 16th, 2017, 11:58 pm A bit of emphasis added. thanks for posting.
sushi_chef wrote: December 16th, 2017, 11:32 pm who is joseph??!!

"PATRIARCHAL BLESSING GIVEN BY JOSEPH SMITH, SR., PATRIARCH OF THE CHURCH OF THE LATTER DAY SAINTS, TO HIS SON, JOSEPH SMITH, JR., ON 9 DECEMBER 1834.

Joseph Smith, junior was born in Sharon, Windsor County, Vermont, December 23, 1805.

Joseph, my son, I lay my hands upon thy head in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to confirm upon thee a father's blessing. The Lord thy God has called thee by name out of the heavens: thou hast heard his voice from on high from time to time, even in thy youth. The hand of the angel of his presence has been extended toward thee by which thou hast been lifted up and sustained; yea, the Lord has delivered thee from the hands of thine enemies and thou hast been made to rejoice in his salvation: thou hast sought to know his ways, and from thy childhood thou hast meditated much upon the great things of his law. Thou hast suffered much in thy youth, and the poverty and afflictions of thy father's family have been a grief to thy soul. Thou hast desired to see them delivered from bondage, for thou hast loved them with a perfect love. Thou hast stood by thy father, and like Shem, would have covered his nakedness, rather than see him exposed to shame: when the daughters of the Gentiles laughed, thy heart has been moved with a just anger to avenge thy kindred. Thou hast been an obedient son: the commands of thy father and the reproofs of thy mother, thou hast respected and obeyed - for all these things the Lord my God will bless thee. Thou hast been called, even in thy youth to the great work of the Lord: to do a work in this generation which no man would do as thyself, in all things according to the will of the Lord. A marvelous work and a wonder has the Lord wrought by thy hand, even that which shall prepare the way for the remnants of his people to come in among the Gentiles, with their fulness, as the tribes of Israel are restored.

I bless thee with the blessings of thy fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and even the blessings of thy father Joseph, the son of Jacob. Behold, he looked after his posterity in the last days, when they should be scattered and driven by the Gentiles, and wept before the Lord: he sought diligently to know from whence the son should come who should bring forth the word of the Lord, by which they might be enlightened, and brought back to the true fold, and his eyes beheld thee, my son: his heart rejoiced and his soul was satisfied, and he said, As my blessings are to extend to the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills, as my father's blessing prevailed above the blessings of his progen(i)tor, and as my branches are to run over the wall, and my seed are to inherit the choice land whereon the Zion of God shall stand in the last days, from among my seed, scattered with the Gentiles, shall a choice Seer arise whose bowles shall be as a fountain of truth, whose loins shall be girded with the girdle of righteousness, whose hands shall be lifted with acceptance before the God of Jacob to turn away his anger from his annointed, whose heart shall meditate great wisdom, whose intelligence shall circumscribe and comprehend the deep things of God, and whose mouth shall utter the law of the just: His feet shall stand upon the neck of his enemies, and he shall walk upon the ashes of those who seek his destruction: with wine and oil shall he be sustained, and he shall feed upon the heritage of Jacob his father: the just shall desire his society, and the upright in heart shall be his companions: No weapon formed against him shall prosper, and though the wicked mar him for a little season, he shall be like one rising up in the heat of wine - he shall roar in his strength, and the Lord shall put to flight his persecutors: he shall be blessed like the fruitful olive, and his memory shall be as sweet as the choice cluster of the first ripe grapes. Like a shief fully ripe, gathered into the garner, so shall he stand before the Lord, having produced a hundred fold. Thus spake my father Joseph. Therefore, my son, I know for a surety that those things will be fulfilled, and I confirm upon thee all these blessings.

Thou shalt like to do the work which the Lord shall command thee: Thou shalt hold the Keys of this ministry, even the presidency of this church, both in time and in eternity. Thy heart shall be enlarged, and thou shalt be able to fill up the measure of thy days according to the will of the Lord. Thou shalt speak the word of the Lord and the earth shall tremble; the mountains shall move and the rivers shall turn out of their course. Thou shalt escape the edge of the sword, and put to flight the armies of the wicked. At thy word the lame shall walk, the deaf shall hear and the blind shall see. Thou shalt be gathered to Zion and in the goodly land thou shalt enjoy thine inheritance; thy children and thy children's children to the latest generation; for thy name and the names of thy posterity shall be recorded in the book of the Lord, even in the book of blessings and genealogies, for their joy and benefit forever. And now, my son, what more shall I say? Thou art as a fruitful olive and a choice vine: thou shalt be laden with precious fruit. Thousands and tens of thousands shall come to a knowledge of the truth through thy ministry, and thou shalt rejoice with them in the Celestial Kingdom:

Thou shalt stand upon the earth when it shall reel to and fro as a drunken man, and be removed out of its place: thou shalt stand when the mighty judgments go forth to the destruction of the wicked: thou shalt stand on Mount Zion when the tribes of Jacob come shouting from the north, and with thy brethren, the sons of Ephraim, crown them in the name of Jesus Christ[/color][/i][/b]: Thou shalt see thy Redeemer come in the clouds of heaven, and with the just receive the hallowed throng with shouts of hallalujahs, praise the Lord. Amen

(Joseph Smith, Sr., Patriarchal Blessing Book no. 1, Historical Department, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah.)
"
https://user.xmission.com/~research/about/patb1.htm
:arrow:
Odd how you skipped over all the bits about a seer being raised from Josephs lineage with all the traits and accomplishments taken straight out of D&C 85:7 and Isaiah. Youve got to have some level of awareness here that you're literally blinding yourself. Can you honestly say you've stripped yourself of pride??? I had to swallow tons of pride before the Lord could teach me that there's another choice seer other than Joseph Smith yet to be unveiled. Tons.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Spaced_Out »

alaris wrote: December 17th, 2017, 12:21 am Just try praying with a humble heart and ask to receive ready and willing to accept any reveals that may be different or even difficult to accept. See what happens. We can keep going back and forth. None of the other parts of D&C 85:7 make any sense being the presiding bishop. And your nothing cryptic statement conflicts with the fact that under your premise Joseph Smith is answering questions about himself without revealing such. That's cryptic.
There is nothing to pray about - no need to pray that God has to send a mighty and strong one to set his church in order - I would be smitten down for blasphemy in the very instance.

Jesus at one time only spoke in parables and let the people figure it out for themselves. JS was not a prideful person if the members asked who was this person in no way would he tell them directly it was himself. The Scripture was not direct revelation but answers given by JS to the members, and recorded as revealed truth.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Spaced_Out »

alaris wrote: December 17th, 2017, 12:35 am Odd how you skipped over all the bits about a seer being raised from Josephs lineage with all the traits and accomplishments taken straight out of D&C 85:7 and Isaiah. Youve got to have some level of awareness here that you're literally blinding yourself. Can you honestly say you've stripped yourself of pride??? I had to swallow tons of pride before the Lord could teach me that there's another choice seer other than Joseph Smith yet to be unveiled. Tons.
You wait in vain for a new saviour to come......
There is only one choice seer, and your arguments that JS did no fulfil the scripture is Isiah is simply a cop-out.
JS is the head of this dispensation another choice seer to restore the kingdom and establish the PH, missionary work and work for the dead is not needed these things have already been restored.

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Alaris »

Spaced_Out wrote: December 17th, 2017, 12:41 am
alaris wrote: December 17th, 2017, 12:21 am Just try praying with a humble heart and ask to receive ready and willing to accept any reveals that may be different or even difficult to accept. See what happens. We can keep going back and forth. None of the other parts of D&C 85:7 make any sense being the presiding bishop. And your nothing cryptic statement conflicts with the fact that under your premise Joseph Smith is answering questions about himself without revealing such. That's cryptic.
There is nothing to pray about - no need to pray that God has to send a mighty and strong one to set his church in order - I would be smitten down for blasphemy in the very instance.

Jesus at one time only spoke in parables and let the people figure it out for themselves. JS was not a prideful person if the members asked who was this person in no way would he tell them directly it was himself. The Scripture was not direct revelation but answers given by JS to the members, and recorded as revealed truth.
This is the fulfillment of Isaiah 28. The pharisees didn't look either. Like the brass serpent, you and they have nothing to lose by looking and much to lose by not. Joseph Smith did tell them the throne and kingdom of David would be given to another by the name of David. It is not blasphemy to consider the possibility of another prophet with prophesied work to do and you know it.
Last edited by Alaris on December 17th, 2017, 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Lyster
captain of 100
Posts: 157
Contact:

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Lyster »

Spaced_Out wrote: December 17th, 2017, 12:41 am There is nothing to pray about - no need to pray
This is a spiritually deadly sentiment.
2 Nephi 32:8-9 wrote: ...for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint...

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Spaced_Out »

LDS Anarchist wrote: December 17th, 2017, 12:50 pm Oh, I'm loving this back and forth between Spaced_Out and alaris! When the Josephite gets out of his box, I oh so hope that alaris calls out Spaced_Out for all these comments saying that there will be no second seer. I wonder if, when that happens and we all realize that "someone mighty and strong" is now on the scene, Spaced_Out will stop visiting this forum, so that he doesn't have to eat humble pie...? Or will he own up to his errors and say, like Bruce R. McConkie did after priesthood revelation, "I spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world, and which alaris and others apparently possessed before I did. I offer my sincerest apologies for being such a stubborn donkey"? LMAO.
Well you have now heard the truth and will see the folly looking for another savior that is not coming. Any person who thinks that a strong and mighty one is still to come is deceived. All our current apostles and prophets are strong and mightily ones to pre ordained to prepare the world for the second coming.
The only people that have ever looked for a another strong and mighty one have been apostates - if you maintain this foolishness that is where it will lead you. The D&C is clear in it's warning don't go out into the wilderness and look for a savior. The current prophet is sustained as president, prophet and leader of the LDS church, to say there is another is to make God a liar.

dafty
captain of 100
Posts: 428

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by dafty »

Spaced_Out wrote: December 17th, 2017, 1:21 pm
LDS Anarchist wrote: December 17th, 2017, 12:50 pm Oh, I'm loving this back and forth between Spaced_Out and alaris! When the Josephite gets out of his box, I oh so hope that alaris calls out Spaced_Out for all these comments saying that there will be no second seer. I wonder if, when that happens and we all realize that "someone mighty and strong" is now on the scene, Spaced_Out will stop visiting this forum, so that he doesn't have to eat humble pie...? Or will he own up to his errors and say, like Bruce R. McConkie did after priesthood revelation, "I spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world, and which alaris and others apparently possessed before I did. I offer my sincerest apologies for being such a stubborn donkey"? LMAO.
Well you have now heard the truth and will see the folly looking for another savior that is not coming. Any person who thinks that a strong and mighty one is still to come is deceived. All our current apostles and prophets are strong and mightily ones to pre ordained to prepare the world for the second coming.
The only people that have ever looked for a another strong and mighty one have been apostates - if you maintain this foolishness that is where it will lead you. The D&C is clear in it's warning don't go out into the wilderness and look for a savior. The current prophet is sustained as president, prophet and leader of the LDS church, to say there is another is to make God a liar.
Making God a liar? So what do you call denying the prophecies made by Isaiah and prophets both from NT and BOM? You still have not showed me where nowdays leaders denied them prophecies made long time ago(copying and pasting various theories from off Church's website does not count in my honest opinion).The evidence seems generally inconclusive, yes, but nobody ever said that it all has definitely been fulfilled either, have they?

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Alaris »

Lyster wrote: December 17th, 2017, 12:52 pm
Spaced_Out wrote: December 17th, 2017, 12:41 am There is nothing to pray about - no need to pray
This is a spiritually deadly sentiment.
2 Nephi 32:8-9 wrote: ...for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint...

Moreover, the subtext is, "I already know." The whole subtext of the basis of this thread - why the topic is so controversial - is perfectly demonstrated in that brief statement. Many LDS try to shoehorn and ramrod every last prophecy they can into what's comfortable and known. This is demonstrated by those who think a resurrected Joseph Smith will be fulfilling those prophecies of a choice seer that have not yet been fulfilled. Those who try to ignore what's obviously yet-to-come or twist those prophecies to fit into the past is another example. I get it. I've been there. Here's the difference. When I prayed in humility to ask, "What knowledge lack I yet?" the Lord answered and the answers were not easy. Those who refuse to pray because they think they already know will not receive.
2 Nephi 28:30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.
Even if there was the slightest possibility of being wrong, would God condemn you for asking? If you ever had a moment of doubt about the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith and prayed to ask God for another witness, would he strike you down? Of course not. So then, if you can muster a sincere prayer asking, "Is there another choice Seer yet to come?" Seriously ... what's the worse that can happen? If you have faith that God answers prayer, will he not answer this for you - one way or the other?

I am not interested in Spaced_Out eating humble pie - the only humility I hope he musters is to the end where he and I see eye to eye. Spaced_Out - I have seen . I have heard. And I have received many, many witnesses - and none of it could happen until after I humbled myself enough to ask with real intent.

simpleton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3074

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by simpleton »

Even the Jews looked foreward to 2 Messiahs...

Waiting for the Messiahs? One, Two, or Three?

By James D. Tabor
One of the ideas I explore and develop in my book, The Jesus Dynasty, is the notion of not one but two Messiahs.

I had no idea it would become sensational — much less controversial. It actually became headline news, with a cover story in USNews and World Report and special segments on ABC’s Good Morning America, 20/20, and Nightline!

Jews and Christians today have come to focus on the appearance of a single Messiah — a descendant of the lineage of David who is to reign as king in a messianic kingdom over the entire earth. These expectations are based on a dozen or more texts in the Hebrew Prophets that predict the reign of such a future scion of David (Isaiah 11, Micah 5, Jeremiah 23 5-6

One of the Thirteen Principles of the Jewish Faith as formulated by the great Rabbi Moses Maimonides (1135-1204 CE), known by the acronym “the Rambam,” states:

I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah, and though he may delay I will wait daily for his coming

Christians affirm that Jesus of Nazareth, crucified but raised from the dead and ascended to the right hand of God, is this Davidic Messiah or King and that he will return in glory “with the clouds of heaven” in a Second Coming to establish his reign over all the earth.

What few realize is that this expectation of a single Davidic Messiah had not so solidified in the time of Jesus. In text after text, in a diverse variety of of expectations reflected in a scattered range of primary texts from the period we read about any number of redemptive figures.

In terms of “Messiahs,” what we find most commonly is not one but two Messiahs who are to usher in the Kingdom of God. One is to be a kingly figure of the royal line of David, but at his side will be a priestly figure, also a Messiah, of the lineage of Aaron from the tribe of Levi. The word “messiah” refers to one who is “anointed” or appointed. In ancient Israel both the kings and the priests were anointed with oil and were thus called “Messiahs.”

The verb mashach means to “smear with oil,” and a Moshiach or “Messiah” in English is one so smeared or “anointed” as we say in English. Technically speaking the “first” messiah was Aaron, brother of Moses, anointed with oil by his brother Moses in a formal ceremony that made him the Priest of Israel (Exodus 29:7). The first anointed king was Saul, anointed with oil by the prophet Samuel (1 Samuel 10:1). When Saul lost favor with God David was likewise anointed by Samuel as king (1 Samuel 16:13; 2 Samuel 2:4). Both priest and king were accordingly “messiahs” or anointed ones. This means that the notion of two messiahs was the norm in ancient Israel and this norm, of the dual messiahs was, of course, the one that was projected into the future once the nation begin to be dismantled by the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions in the 8th-6th centuries BCE.

Zechariah, the 6th century BC Hebrew prophet, foretold of a man called “the Branch” who would bear royal honor and sit on his throne, but he adds, “There shall be a priest by his throne with peaceful understanding between the two of them” (Zechariah 6:13). Here is a clear picture of the Davidic King and his counselor, the anointed Priest. Zechariah refers in another vision to “two sons of fresh oil” (i.e., “anointed ones” or “messiahs”) who “stand before the Lord of the whole earth.” He likens them in his vision to two “olive branches” that stand before the Menorah, the seven-branched oil lamp that symbolized God’s Spirit and presence (Zechariah 4).

This ideal vision of two messiahs became a model for many Jewish groups that were oriented toward apocalyptic thinking in the 2nd to 1st centuries BC. The Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, dating from the 2nd century BC puts things succinctly: “For the Lord will raise up from Levi someone as high priest and from Judah someone as king.” (Testament of Simon 7. 2).

It seems, based on these texts, that the notion of “Two Messiahs” was the ideal structure of Jewish leadership. It is for this reason that the Maccabeans or Hashmoneans, in the 2nd and 1st centuries BC, who could claim only the Levitical priestly bloodline, were never really able to effectively establish themselves in the eyes of the populace as “kings,” despite massive political and military power. Ingrained in the Jewish imagination the ideal future in which both a Priest and a King would rule together.

John the Baptizer identified himself as the “messenger” who was to prepare the Way based on a prophecy from the book of Malachi. The version we read in our modern Bibles today is as follows:

“Behold I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. The messenger of the covenant in whom you delight—indeed, he is coming says Yahweh of hosts, but who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears?” (Malachi 3:1-2).

This translation is based on the standard Hebrew text (Masoretic), the oldest copy of which dates to the 9th century AD. We now have a version of this very passage from Malachi found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. This scroll dates to the 1st century BC, so it is a thousand years older than our standard Hebrew text. Notice carefully the differences in the pronouns:

“Therefore behold I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me. And they will suddenly come to his temple, the Lord whom you seek and the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire; behold he himself comes, says Yahweh of hosts, but who can endure them when they come?” (See Martin Abegg, Peter Flint, and Eugene Ulrich, The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, p. 477.)

This ancient version of Malachi has two figures that are to come jointly — a messenger of the covenant who prepares the Way, but also one called “the Lord whom you seek.” The word translated “Lord” (‘adon) is not the Hebrew name for God — Yahweh, but a word that means a “master” or ruler of some type. It may well be that Jesus and John the Baptizer were familiar with this version of Malachi with the plural pronouns, and identified themselves accordingly. This was certainly the understanding of the sectarian community that wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls.

In one of the oldest founding documents of the Dead Sea Scrolls, The Community Rule, the community is expecting the coming of a prophet they called the Teacher, but also the “Messiahs of Aaron and Israel.” They imagined a future in which the Priest Messiah would preside over a “Messianic banquet,” with the King Messiah of Israel, whom they call the “Prince of the congregation,” or the “Branch of David,” as his companion. There are many references in the Dead Sea Scrolls to their fervent expectation that these two Messiahs would appear. As important as the “Branch of David” was to be, they nonetheless had the most extravagant hopes for the coming priest. In a text called the Testament of Levi we read the following:

The Dead Sea Scroll community waited a long time for the fulfillment of these central expectations. They had retreated to the Judean desert sometime in the 2nd century BC in response to the prophetic Voice they heard through the prophecies of Isaiah, Daniel, and Malachi. They became convinced that “this was the time” of the preparation of “the Way.” They were the community of the “Last Days” responding to Isaiah’s call to prepare the Way in the desert (Isaiah 40:3). Sometime in the 1st century BCE an influential figure arose among them who had great spiritual and interpretive gifts. They refer to him in the Scrolls as the “Teacher of Righteousness.”

We don’t know his name but many events of his life, and even some of his writings, are preserved in the Scrolls. The community saw him as a type of “Prophet like Moses” who had called them into a “new covenant.” They viewed themselves as a remnant group of faithful Israelites who had turned from their sins and separated themselves from the ungodly society around them. They considered the religious establishment of their day, whether Pharisee or Sadducee, to be hopelessly corrupt and compromised. They lived by the strictest interpretation of the laws of the Torah and firmly believed they were living in the “last days.” They believed that their Teacher had given them the definitive inspired interpretation of all the secrets of their prophetic writings.

When their teacher was killed, probably sometime in the mid-1st century BCE, they were convinced the final countdown had begun and that the two Messiahs would soon appear. There are some texts that speak of a final period of “forty years,” following the death of their Teacher. The forty years passed but there is no record in any of the Dead Sea Scrolls that the two Messiahs ever appeared. It was as if all their hopes and expectations were stopped in time and put on hold. A small group of their community still lived at the settlement we know as Qumran in the 1st century CE. It is likely that they were responsible for keeping alive the hope of the coming of the two Messiahs and the Prophet like Moses.

Given these deeply rooted hopes and expectations among these Messianic Jews one can scarcely imagine the excitement and fervor that John the Baptist and Jesus would have stirred as they prepared their next moves in the spring of 27 CE. John as a priest from the tribe of Levi and Jesus as a descendant of David from the tribe of Judah must have stirred the hopes of thousands who had come to expect the arrival of the two Messiahs as a sure sign of the end. Even Herod Antipas soon felt the sting of John the Baptizers’ blistering message of repentance. Christians are prone to imagine a “meek and lowly” Jesus who seldom raised his voice but the evidence will show that he learned well from his teacher and that like John the Baptizer, Jesus’ radical message divided households and villages and shook the religious and political establishment.

Follow James D. Tabor on Twitter: www.twitter.com/Jamesdtabor

sushi_chef
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3693
Location: tokyo, jpn

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by sushi_chef »

kinda liked bishop john hyrum koyles(1864 - 1949) prophecy,

"48. Near the time of the end, many of the General Authorities will become quite old. Troubles will start when three leaders will die in close proximity to one another. The new replacements will not be able to hold the Church together.

49. In the end there will be a great apostasy in the Church. A rift in leadership will cause many members to leave. Something will happen to make members congregate in and around the churches, and at various other locations to discuss and ponder the great disturbing changes occurring. This will mark the commencement of the time of problems for the Church, as well as the time of apostasy.

50. The Bishop told of an interview with the Prophet Joseph in Salt Lake City. The two of them were seeking out the latter general authorities. The Bishop asked Joseph what he was going to do. Joseph's answer was, "I'm going to release them, every last man-jack one of them." (A man-jack is a mule that must be castrated or cut off to remove their unreconcilable stubbornness to Godly direction.) Joseph then stated, "They had their chance and failed!"
"
http://www.reliefmine.com/articles/koyl ... prophecies

seems #48 was fulfilled, elders perry( - may 30 2015, 92), packer( - jul 3 2015, 90) and scott( - sept 22 2015, 89).

and then,

"Bishop John H. Koyle, of Dream Mine fame, told me that it was revealed to him that the Prophet Joseph was the One Mighty and Strong who would come to set the house of God in order.
"
http://ogdenkraut.com/?page_id=161
:arrow:

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Alaris »

Matchmaker posted this in another thread about the mighty and strong one poll where the highest voted choice is basically denial of a new seer. So, this quote will be rather unsettling to those hoping that only Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ are the ones to whom these prophecies refer.
President Joseph F Smith said, "The Church of Christ is completely organized, and when the man who shall be called upon to divide unto the Saints their inheritances comes, he will be designated by the inspiration of the Lord to the proper authorities of the Church, appointed and sustained according to the order provided for the government of the Church." (Improvement Era 10:929-930, October 1907.)

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Alaris »

simpleton wrote: December 17th, 2017, 4:38 pm Even the Jews looked foreward to 2 Messiahs...


Zechariah, the 6th century BC Hebrew prophet, foretold of a man called “the Branch” who would bear royal honor and sit on his throne, but he adds, “There shall be a priest by his throne with peaceful understanding between the two of them” (Zechariah 6:13). Here is a clear picture of the Davidic King and his counselor, the anointed Priest. Zechariah refers in another vision to “two sons of fresh oil” (i.e., “anointed ones” or “messiahs”) who “stand before the Lord of the whole earth.” He likens them in his vision to two “olive branches” that stand before the Menorah, the seven-branched oil lamp that symbolized God’s Spirit and presence (Zechariah 4).
Thanks for that super interesting article.

The two witnesses are the two messiahs of Zechariah :
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Moroni also quotes Malachi 3 which I believe is a reference to Ezekiel 44:

Ezekiel 44:1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2 Then said the Lord unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the Lord, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same
The prince is not the king but the prince. Confusing I know :)

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Spaced_Out »

dafty wrote: December 17th, 2017, 1:49 pm Making God a liar? So what do you call denying the prophecies made by Isaiah and prophets both from NT and BOM? You still have not showed me where nowdays leaders denied them prophecies made long time ago(copying and pasting various theories from off Church's website does not count in my honest opinion).The evidence seems generally inconclusive, yes, but nobody ever said that it all has definitely been fulfilled either, have they?
All those prophecies have already been fulfilled..
How do you envisage those prophecies to still be fulfilled??? The Church has been restored and the keys of the presidency, sealing power and keys of the gathering of Israel and keys of the restoration of the lost tribes are currently held by the Prophet, first presidency and quorums of the 12.
The only way for those prophecies to still come to pass if for the church to complete fail and every Apostle of the church has to be killed or leave the church, wherein a new church will need to be restored again.
There are many scriptures and prophecies that the kingdom has been established for the last time never to fail..

If some freaking idiot like Snuffer comes out of the woodwork and claims he is now the new seer and has the authority to rule the church .. What will you d!! I personally will laugh to the point I drop dead. If it was during the tribulations or post tribulation I would just shoot the idiot in the head and put him out of his misery.

It is an apostate doctrine from the deepest pits of hell designed to teach people that another prophet will come and the LDS church is corrupt. Believe as you will and follow whatever false prophet arises in the lasts days that suits your disposition and deny the first presidency of the church. We will talk again at the great judgement bar.....

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Spaced_Out »

Summary of what I have understood so far:

Another seer or prophet is to come and set the church in order and will be a davitic decedent.
In order to prove this by scripture the following assumptions are made.
  • All the prophecies of the destruction of the gentiles are applicable to the LDS Church
  • The mighty and strong one prophecy is the same person and linked to the Davitic decedent
  • Ephraim does no have the right and a decedent of David will take the rule in the last days
  • Isiah 11 is of a future date
  • The LDS church still needs to be restored and put in order as it has fallen into dark paths
  • The choice seer from the loins of Joseph has double fulfilment in the last days ie there will be two of them
  • Joseph Smith life and work does not full the requirements of the prophecies so another is needed
  • Elias has not come yet and still needs to come to restore the work for the dead
All those arguments I have disproved baring the now made up argument that a second seer will be called. Note in the verses below a single seer is referred to and he will bring forth the BoM to the seed of the Laminates, and his name will be Joseph...
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst- ... ng=eng#p25


26 A seer shall the Lord my God raise up, who shall be a choice seer unto the fruit of my loins.
27 Thus saith the Lord God of my fathers unto me, A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren.
28 And he shall bring them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers; and he shall do whatsoever work I shall command him.
29 And I will make him great in mine eyes, for he shall do my work; and he shall be great like unto him whom I have said I would raise up unto you, to deliver my people, O house of Israel, out of the land of Egypt; for a seer will I raise up to deliver my people out of the land of Egypt; and he shall be called Moses. And by this name he shall know that he is of thy house; for he shall be nursed by the king’s daughter, and shall be called her son.

30 And again, a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins; and not to the bringing forth of my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them in the last days;
31 Wherefore the fruit of thy loins shall write, and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together unto the confounding of false doctrines, and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to a knowledge of their fathers in the latter days; and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
32 And out of weakness shall he be made strong, in that day when my work shall go forth among all my people, which shall restore them, who are of the house of Israel, in the last days.
33 And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you; for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation.

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Alaris »

Spaced_Out wrote: December 18th, 2017, 2:05 am Summary of what I have understood so far:

Another seer or prophet is to come and set the church in order and will be a davitic decedent.
In order to prove this by scripture the following assumptions are made.
  • All the prophecies of the destruction of the gentiles are applicable to the LDS Church
  • The mighty and strong one prophecy is the same person and linked to the Davitic decedent
  • Ephraim does no have the right and a decedent of David will take the rule in the last days
  • Isiah 11 is of a future date
  • The LDS church still needs to be restored and put in order as it has fallen into dark paths
  • The choice seer from the loins of Joseph has double fulfilment in the last days ie there will be two of them
  • Joseph Smith life and work does not full the requirements of the prophecies so another is needed
  • Elias has not come yet and still needs to come to restore the work for the dead
All those arguments I have disproved baring the now made up argument that a second seer will be called. Note in the verses below a single seer is referred to and he will bring forth the BoM to the seed of the Laminates, and his name will be Joseph...
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst- ... ng=eng#p25


26 A seer shall the Lord my God raise up, who shall be a choice seer unto the fruit of my loins.
27 Thus saith the Lord God of my fathers unto me, A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren.
28 And he shall bring them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers; and he shall do whatsoever work I shall command him.
29 And I will make him great in mine eyes, for he shall do my work; and he shall be great like unto him whom I have said I would raise up unto you, to deliver my people, O house of Israel, out of the land of Egypt; for a seer will I raise up to deliver my people out of the land of Egypt; and he shall be called Moses. And by this name he shall know that he is of thy house; for he shall be nursed by the king’s daughter, and shall be called her son.

30 And again, a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins; and not to the bringing forth of my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them in the last days;
31 Wherefore the fruit of thy loins shall write, and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together unto the confounding of false doctrines, and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to a knowledge of their fathers in the latter days; and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
32 And out of weakness shall he be made strong, in that day when my work shall go forth among all my people, which shall restore them, who are of the house of Israel, in the last days.
33 And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you; for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation.
You are either not really reading the posts or you are deliberately twisting. Since I've seen much twisting from you already, along with the spirit of your above reply to dafty that includes mocking until you drop dead, and murder - bundled with your refusal to pray (which another poster pointed out the scripture that identifies the spirit that teaches man not to pray) add it all up and = The fruits of a bad spirit.

That's putting it gently (You're welcome BrianM.) You can continue to twist what I and others are saying as I only need to point out a few of the twists and quotes you've ignored to clearly and simply demonstrate your refusal of knowing ... seeing the truth--the the Lord has a Mighty and Strong One yet to come to set in order the House of God.

Twists untwisted:
  • Ephraim's birthright - nobody said Ephraim has no right. You know the scripture (D&C 113:4) and it's clear that the Rod is both of Ephraim and of Judah.
  • LDS church fallen into dark paths is a straw man. Some may believe that but certainly not all. Durzan and I are two who have made that clear but you are clearly lumping this all together for a straw man burning.
  • The double fulfillment - Isaiah is all about double fulfillment. Have you read Isaiah yet?
  • You've quoted scriptures about Joseph Smith literally nobody has attributed to The Davidic Servant and claimed we have. Seriously.
  • "Elias has not come yet and still needs to come to restore the work for the dead?" Did someone say that? If not, this one is just bad.
Here's a published quote from a Prophet Joseph F Smith that refutes your disposal of D&C 85:7 as something that already happened.
President Joseph F Smith said, "The Church of Christ is completely organized, and when the man who shall be called upon to divide unto the Saints their inheritances comes, he will be designated by the inspiration of the Lord to the proper authorities of the Church, appointed and sustained according to the order provided for the government of the Church." (Improvement Era 10:929-930, October 1907.)
Here's D&C 85:7 again for those who don't have it nearly memorized due to repitition:
D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
Seriously Spaced_Out. Stop twisting. You are a smart guy whose opinion I respect. I sincerely understand those who reject the idea of another choice seer - I've been there. However what you're doing is inexcusable.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Spaced_Out »

alaris wrote: December 18th, 2017, 12:03 pm Here's D&C 85:7 again for those who don't have it nearly memorized due to repitition:
D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
Seriously Spaced_Out. Stop twisting. You are a smart guy whose opinion I respect. I sincerely understand those who reject the idea of another choice seer - I've been there. However what you're doing is inexcusable.
D&C 85 is referring to the presiding bishop a the time of JS. Yes some also think that in the last days another presiding Bishop will be called that will set the inheritance in Zion the New Jerusalem it has nothing to do with D&C 113.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10353
Contact:

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by marc »

Spaced_Out wrote: December 18th, 2017, 1:41 amIf some freaking idiot like Snuffer comes out of the woodwork and claims he is now the new seer and has the authority to rule the church .. What will you d!! I personally will laugh to the point I drop dead. If it was during the tribulations or post tribulation I would just shoot the idiot in the head and put him out of his misery...We will talk again at the great judgement bar.....
Raca. From the Aramaic word reka or reqa, "foolish" or "empty headed." Derived from a root word meaning "to spit." An offensive word used to show contempt for someone. Jesus warned that the use of such a word to describe someone was tantamount to murder and deserving of the severest punishment of the law (Matthew 5). I fear for your own soul at the judgement bar.

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Alaris »

Spaced_Out wrote: December 18th, 2017, 1:28 pm
alaris wrote: December 18th, 2017, 12:03 pm Here's D&C 85:7 again for those who don't have it nearly memorized due to repitition:
D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
Seriously Spaced_Out. Stop twisting. You are a smart guy whose opinion I respect. I sincerely understand those who reject the idea of another choice seer - I've been there. However what you're doing is inexcusable.
D&C 85 is referring to the presiding bishop a the time of JS. Yes some also think that in the last days another presiding Bishop will be called that will set the inheritance in Zion the New Jerusalem it has nothing to do with D&C 113.
You still haven't addressed how any of the rest of verse 7 of D&C 85 was fulfilled by Bishop Partridge. I'm not actually asking you to address those portions of verse 7 because D&C 85:7 wasn't about Bishop Partridge - I'm asking you to reread the verse with an open mind and consider there is much, much more to the verse than assigning parcels of land in Missouri - the scope of the verse is obviously much larger and none of the rest of it could apply Bishop Partridge.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Spaced_Out »

alaris wrote: December 18th, 2017, 12:03 pm
President Joseph F Smith said, "The Church of Christ is completely organized, and when the man who shall be called upon to divide unto the Saints their inheritances comes, he will be designated by the inspiration of the Lord to the proper authorities of the Church, appointed and sustained according to the order provided for the government of the Church." (Improvement Era 10:929-930, October 1907.)
Well if that is what you are saying and believe then there is nothing to discuss.
If in the last days a PH is called through proper channels to perform a work to set the inheritance of Zion the New Jerusalem in order, or if things in the church become unorganized due to the calamites. For example, the worlds communication systems may go down and there will be many deaths and personal apostasy by the members so thing will need to be set in order again.
So a PH leader is called to reestablish many parts of the kingdom and set in order communication, so be it. Even if the PH leader is called as the Prophet through established methods so be it – nothing new here. It is common than PH are called to accomplish a specific work and each prophet has had a specific focus during his presidency. Boo Hoo nothing to write home about.

It is the apostates that say the church leader are out of order and need to be reorganized misuse those scriptures.
I still see no evidence of double fulfillment of the scriptures of the choice seer, but if that is how you consider it then I have no issue with it – so we have come to a similar understanding.. Not so hard – just a few harsh words and the truth comes out.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

Post by Spaced_Out »

marc wrote: December 18th, 2017, 1:51 pm
Spaced_Out wrote: December 18th, 2017, 1:41 amIf some freaking idiot like Snuffer comes out of the woodwork and claims he is now the new seer and has the authority to rule the church .. What will you d!! I personally will laugh to the point I drop dead. If it was during the tribulations or post tribulation I would just shoot the idiot in the head and put him out of his misery...We will talk again at the great judgement bar.....
Raca. From the Aramaic word reka or reqa, "foolish" or "empty headed." Derived from a root word meaning "to spit." An offensive word used to show contempt for someone. Jesus warned that the use of such a word to describe someone was tantamount to murder and deserving of the severest punishment of the law (Matthew 5). I fear for your own soul at the judgement bar.
Well the great and honorable Mr Suffer – did he do a good thing or a stupid thing by being excommunicated. Every excommunicated person that I know when they have been rebaptized have stood up and confessed that they did a stupid thing and were an idiot.
Hopefully He comes to his senses and confesses his idiocy and is rebaptized.

Post Reply