Why is the topic Strong and Mighty one so controversial if Isaiah?

[Kingdom of ZION]

I still have to disagree. Yes the Jews were those who rejected the Messiah. But remember that the only reason they were there as a people in the first place is because they were the most righteous of the tribes - all the others were already broken and scattered completely, due to horrific wickedness, the tribes of Joseph every bit as any. Historically Judah has a significantly better track record, the southern kingdom (judah, benjamin and some levi) generally more righteous and having better kings. Unlike the other ten, they were blessed to return from their captivity by the hand of cyrus, and retain their identity as a distinct people.

The reconciliation of joseph and judah is mich more broad than i before stated anyway. the tribes will unite under one banner again. the davidic servant himself is a symbol of this, having both judaic and ephraimite lineages. christ also, who had a considerable amount of ephraim.

Yes you are right about the Kingdom of Judah. Actually it was 9 1/2 Tribes (not 10 Tribes), as it was the Tribe of Benjamin that was divided, and not the Tribe of Levi (who at the time was not a Tribe, as Dan was still numbered among the 12 Tribes). And yes, all of Yesrael was blinded in part because of their unwillingness to live the Gospel. However, without that blindness, the Gentiles would not have been offered the Gospel and gathered with the chosen. This has allowed all the Children of Yah the opportunity to be numbered among the Elect. Joseph Smith's Dispensation was a Dispensation unto the Gentiles (as per the BofM).

Apart from Joseph Smith's writings, we would have no scriptures, save for the Jews!

[Alaris]

I still have to disagree. Yes the Jews were those who rejected the Messiah. But remember that the only reason they were there as a people in the first place is because they were the most righteous of the tribes - all the others were already broken and scattered completely, due to horrific wickedness, the tribes of Joseph every bit as any. Historically Judah has a significantly better track record, the southern kingdom (judah, benjamin and some levi) generally more righteous and having better kings. Unlike the other ten, they were blessed to return from their captivity by the hand of cyrus, and retain their identity as a distinct people.

The reconciliation of joseph and judah is mich more broad than i before stated anyway. the tribes will unite under one banner again. the davidic servant himself is a symbol of this, having both judaic and ephraimite lineages. christ also, who had a considerable amount of ephraim.

Yes you are right about the Kingdom of Judah. Actually it was 9 1/2 Tribes (not 10 Tribes), as it was the Tribe of Benjamin that was divided, and not the Tribe of Levi (who at the time was not a Tribe, as Dan was still numbered among the 12 Tribes). And yes, all of Yesrael was blinded in part because of their unwillingness to live the Gospel. However, without that blindness, the Gentiles would not have been offered the Gospel and gathered with the chosen. This has allowed all the Children of Yah the opportunity to be numbered among the Elect. Joseph Smith's Dispensation was a Dispensation unto the Gentiles (as per the BofM).

Apart from Joseph Smith's writings, we would have no scriptures, save for the Jews!

Abijah / KOZ - I highly respect both of you and have been edified by both of you. I'm not trying to be "right" here - I just ask you consider the idea that Judah is the least and plant that seed and see if it takes root or not.

Alma 32:28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

I edited my prior post and added some detail.

Ephraim - Melchizedek
Levi - Levitical
The rest of the tribes - what order are they in? Why would the Lord choose randomly any tribe other than the least of them to gather them all?

[Kingdom of ZION]

It has been suggested by some that All of the Children of the Messiah are found in the kingdom of Yesrael and that the Children of the Father are those found in the kingdom of Judah. This is how it is explained that they choose El, over receiving His Son the Messiah as the newly appointed King and El. In the latter days, the Children of the Father are literally not of the blood or birthright of the Messiah. They must be adopted in, and hence are redeemed last out of all of the Tribes of Yesrael.

[abijah]

I would generally agree with the statement that Ephraim has a higher spiritual birthright compared with Judah, but I still don't see much evidence for Judah being the least of the tribes. What about Reuben, who fell from grace by defiling his father's bed? Or Benjamin, who's sons started a drastic civil war that nearly decimated their tribe by harbouring rapists and murderers? I still feel more convinced of my earlier statement that at least in terms of Old Testament history, throughout the centuries Judah was fairly consistently the most righteous of all the tribes. This is why they out of all twelve have been blessed to continue as a distinct people. Did they reject the Messiah yes, and have been duly punished for it as you've stated. I'm not saying they're pious and spotless, just that despite their shortcomings their ultimate punishment came later than any of the others. So if anything, they're the least wicked of them.

But really, I find this a fairly petty detail. We can agree that the reconciliation of Judah and Joseph in the endtime will be a significant event in last days Israel, I'm not that concerned with minute details.

Abijah / KOZ - I highly respect both of you and have been edified by both of you. I'm not trying to be "right" here - I just ask you consider the idea that Judah is the least and plant that seed and see if it takes root or not.

Thanks, likewise. I won't be closed off to the idea, if it takes root then well enough!

[Kingdom of ZION]

I would generally agree with the statement that Ephraim has a higher spiritual birthright compared with Judah, but I still don't see much evidence for Judah being the least of the tribes. What about Reuben, who fell from grace by defiling his father's bed? Or Benjamin, who's sons started a drastic civil war that nearly decimated their tribe by harbouring rapists and murderers? I still feel more convinced of my earlier statement that at least in terms of Old Testament history, throughout the centuries Judah was fairly consistently the most righteous of all the tribes. This is why they out of all twelve have been blessed to continue as a distinct people. Did they reject the Messiah yes, and have been duly punished for it as you've stated. I'm not saying they're pious and spotless, just that despite their shortcomings their ultimate punishment came later than any of the others. So if anything, they're the least wicked of them.

But really, I find this a fairly petty detail. We can agree that the reconciliation of Judah and Joseph in the endtime will be a significant event in last days Israel, I'm not that concerned with minute details.

Abijah / KOZ - I highly respect both of you and have been edified by both of you. I'm not trying to be "right" here - I just ask you consider the idea that Judah is the least and plant that seed and see if it takes root or not.

Thanks, likewise. I won't be closed off to the idea, if it takes root then well enough!

I would differ in this as Ephraim having a higher spiritual birthright, for was it not Judah's spiritual birthright to bring forth the Messiah. The Davidic lineage of the Kings was so important to the Messiah, He referred to Himself more than once as the Son of David.

Much is hidden at this time...

[Alaris]

I would generally agree with the statement that Ephraim has a higher spiritual birthright compared with Judah, but I still don't see much evidence for Judah being the least of the tribes. What about Reuben, who fell from grace by defiling his father's bed? Or Benjamin, who's sons started a drastic civil war that nearly decimated their tribe by harbouring rapists and murderers? I still feel more convinced of my earlier statement that at least in terms of Old Testament history, throughout the centuries Judah was fairly consistently the most righteous of all the tribes. This is why they out of all twelve have been blessed to continue as a distinct people. Did they reject the Messiah yes, and have been duly punished for it as you've stated. I'm not saying they're pious and spotless, just that despite their shortcomings their ultimate punishment came later than any of the others. So if anything, they're the least wicked of them.

But really, I find this a fairly petty detail. We can agree that the reconciliation of Judah and Joseph in the endtime will be a significant event in last days Israel, I'm not that concerned with minute details.

Abijah / KOZ - I highly respect both of you and have been edified by both of you. I'm not trying to be "right" here - I just ask you consider the idea that Judah is the least and plant that seed and see if it takes root or not.

Thanks, likewise. I won't be closed off to the idea, if it takes root then well enough!

I would differ in this as Ephraim having a higher spiritual birthright, for was it not Judah's spiritual birthright to bring forth the Messiah. The Davidic lineage of the Kings was so important to the Messiah, He referred to Himself more than once as the Son of David.

Much is hidden at this time...

This is precisely why I believe Judah to be the least of the tribes. Ephraim received a double portion as Abijah pointed out in his thread on firstborn iirc. He has the birthright. Ephraim has the Melchizedek Priesthood...like right now.

Judah is still following the law of Moses.

They've been cursed and persecuted by their own doing. No other nation would crucify their God.

2 Nephi 10:3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify

Now of course there is a couple of ways to interpret that scripture but any way you slice it, Gods must spiritually advanced people they are not. Jesus places a kingly birthright among the least tribe to join it together with the greatest tribe at the last day ala D&C 103 where the root and rod, be they two people or one, joins the birthright together and it is Ephraim who crowns the lost ten tribes in glory, not Judah.

D&C 133:32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.

[Love]

I would generally agree with the statement that Ephraim has a higher spiritual birthright compared with Judah, but I still don't see much evidence for Judah being the least of the tribes. What about Reuben, who fell from grace by defiling his father's bed? Or Benjamin, who's sons started a drastic civil war that nearly decimated their tribe by harbouring rapists and murderers? I still feel more convinced of my earlier statement that at least in terms of Old Testament history, throughout the centuries Judah was fairly consistently the most righteous of all the tribes. This is why they out of all twelve have been blessed to continue as a distinct people. Did they reject the Messiah yes, and have been duly punished for it as you've stated. I'm not saying they're pious and spotless, just that despite their shortcomings their ultimate punishment came later than any of the others. So if anything, they're the least wicked of them.

But really, I find this a fairly petty detail. We can agree that the reconciliation of Judah and Joseph in the endtime will be a significant event in last days Israel, I'm not that concerned with minute details.

Abijah / KOZ - I highly respect both of you and have been edified by both of you. I'm not trying to be "right" here - I just ask you consider the idea that Judah is the least and plant that seed and see if it takes root or not.

Thanks, likewise. I won't be closed off to the idea, if it takes root then well enough!

I would differ in this as Ephraim having a higher spiritual birthright, for was it not Judah's spiritual birthright to bring forth the Messiah. The Davidic lineage of the Kings was so important to the Messiah, He referred to Himself more than once as the Son of David.

Much is hidden at this time...

Ephaim my dear son. Jeremiah 31:20

I am the Father of Isreal and Ephriam is my Firstborn Jeremiah 31:9

[\color]

[Kingdom of ZION]

I would generally agree with the statement that Ephraim has a higher spiritual birthright compared with Judah, but I still don't see much evidence for Judah being the least of the tribes. What about Reuben, who fell from grace by defiling his father's bed? Or Benjamin, who's sons started a drastic civil war that nearly decimated their tribe by harbouring rapists and murderers? I still feel more convinced of my earlier statement that at least in terms of Old Testament history, throughout the centuries Judah was fairly consistently the most righteous of all the tribes. This is why they out of all twelve have been blessed to continue as a distinct people. Did they reject the Messiah yes, and have been duly punished for it as you've stated. I'm not saying they're pious and spotless, just that despite their shortcomings their ultimate punishment came later than any of the others. So if anything, they're the least wicked of them.

But really, I find this a fairly petty detail. We can agree that the reconciliation of Judah and Joseph in the endtime will be a significant event in last days Israel, I'm not that concerned with minute details.

Abijah / KOZ - I highly respect both of you and have been edified by both of you. I'm not trying to be "right" here - I just ask you consider the idea that Judah is the least and plant that seed and see if it takes root or not.

Thanks, likewise. I won't be closed off to the idea, if it takes root then well enough!

I would differ in this as Ephraim having a higher spiritual birthright, for was it not Judah's spiritual birthright to bring forth the Messiah. The Davidic lineage of the Kings was so important to the Messiah, He referred to Himself more than once as the Son of David.

Much is hidden at this time...

Ephaim my dear son. Jeremiah 31:20

I am the Father of Isreal and Ephriam is my Firstborn Jeremiah 31:9

[\color]

I am not putting Ephraim down, my birthright comes through both Ephraim and Judah. But Ephraim was an adopted Son (as he was his Grandson) through his favorite son who was Joseph, and who was not his firstborn!

So, like I said, Much is hidden at this time...

[Alaris]

I would generally agree with the statement that Ephraim has a higher spiritual birthright compared with Judah, but I still don't see much evidence for Judah being the least of the tribes. What about Reuben, who fell from grace by defiling his father's bed? Or Benjamin, who's sons started a drastic civil war that nearly decimated their tribe by harbouring rapists and murderers? I still feel more convinced of my earlier statement that at least in terms of Old Testament history, throughout the centuries Judah was fairly consistently the most righteous of all the tribes. This is why they out of all twelve have been blessed to continue as a distinct people. Did they reject the Messiah yes, and have been duly punished for it as you've stated. I'm not saying they're pious and spotless, just that despite their shortcomings their ultimate punishment came later than any of the others. So if anything, they're the least wicked of them.

But really, I find this a fairly petty detail. We can agree that the reconciliation of Judah and Joseph in the endtime will be a significant event in last days Israel, I'm not that concerned with minute details.



Thanks, likewise. I won't be closed off to the idea, if it takes root then well enough!

I would differ in this as Ephraim having a higher spiritual birthright, for was it not Judah's spiritual birthright to bring forth the Messiah. The Davidic lineage of the Kings was so important to the Messiah, He referred to Himself more than once as the Son of David.

Much is hidden at this time...

Ephaim my dear son. Jeremiah 31:20

I am the Father of Isreal and Ephriam is my Firstborn Jeremiah 31:9

[\color]

I am not putting Ephraim down, my birthright comes through both Ephraim and Judah. But Ephraim was an adopted Son (as he was his Grandson) through his favorite son was Joseph, who was not his firstborn!

So, like I said, Much is hidden at this time...

"Firstborn" is rarely, if ever, the "first born." Almost any prophet you can think of who has his family documented is a younger brother. The birthright from Adam reflects the same, for those cases where birth order is documented. The Lord Himself is the exception and even then he wasn't the first born to Joseph and Mary, though He was Mary's first born. Almost like His birth was out of turn as well!

Seth, Moses, Shem (supposedly there's evidence Shem was the second born,) Isaac, Joseph, Ephraim, Andrew / Peter, Nephi, Joseph / Hyrum, etc. etc. The fact that Isaac, Joseph, Ephraim all received the birthright "out of turn" is certainly a heavenly clue that by no means diminishes Ephraim's birthright.

I believe part of this is deference to the Lord, but the greater symbol here is that nobody receives a heavenly birthright by age or by order of birth - only by earning the birthright. The Lord naming Ephraim firstborn in Jeremiah 31 is certainly telling. Why would the Lord be born by a non-birthright tribe if it isn't the least of the tribes? Some random middle tribe?

Of course there is the symbolism of eternal rounds and how one earns firstborn (D&C 93) rather than being blessed by happenstance. "You were the first spirit born. Congratulations. You will never sin ever because you will have to be innocent to atone for everyone else."

[Kingdom of ZION]

I would differ in this as Ephraim having a higher spiritual birthright, for was it not Judah's spiritual birthright to bring forth the Messiah. The Davidic lineage of the Kings was so important to the Messiah, He referred to Himself more than once as the Son of David.

Much is hidden at this time...

Ephaim my dear son. Jeremiah 31:20

I am the Father of Isreal and Ephriam is my Firstborn Jeremiah 31:9

[\color]

I am not putting Ephraim down, my birthright comes through both Ephraim and Judah. But Ephraim was an adopted Son (as he was his Grandson) through his favorite son was Joseph, who was not his firstborn!

So, like I said, Much is hidden at this time...

"Firstborn" is rarely, if ever, the "first born." Almost any prophet you can think of who has his family documented is a younger brother. The birthright from Adam reflects the same, for those cases where birth order is documented. The Lord Himself is the exception and even then he wasn't the first born to Joseph and Mary, though He was Mary's first born. Almost like His birth was out of turn as well!

Seth, Moses, Shem (supposedly there's evidence Shem was the second born,) Isaac, Joseph, Ephraim, Andrew / Peter, Nephi, Joseph / Hyrum, etc. etc. The fact that Isaac, Joseph, Ephraim all received the birthright "out of turn" is certainly a heavenly clue that by no means diminishes Ephraim's birthright.

I believe part of this is deference to the Lord, but the greater symbol here is that nobody receives a heavenly birthright by age or by order of birth - only by earning the birthright. The Lord naming Ephraim firstborn in Jeremiah 31 is certainly telling. Why would the Lord be born by a non-birthright tribe if it isn't the least of the tribes? Some random middle tribe?

Of course there is the symbolism of eternal rounds and how one earns firstborn (D&C 93) rather than being blessed by happenstance. "You were the first spirit born. Congratulations. You will never sin ever because you will have to be innocent to atone for everyone else."

What really stands out to me is the Twins Types:
Messiah and Lucifer
Abel and Cain
Issac and Ishmael

The struggle for birthright or covenant blessings.

[Alaris]

Ephaim my dear son. Jeremiah 31:20

I am the Father of Isreal and Ephriam is my Firstborn Jeremiah 31:9

[\color]

I am not putting Ephraim down, my birthright comes through both Ephraim and Judah. But Ephraim was an adopted Son (as he was his Grandson) through his favorite son was Joseph, who was not his firstborn!

So, like I said, Much is hidden at this time...

"Firstborn" is rarely, if ever, the "first born." Almost any prophet you can think of who has his family documented is a younger brother. The birthright from Adam reflects the same, for those cases where birth order is documented. The Lord Himself is the exception and even then he wasn't the first born to Joseph and Mary, though He was Mary's first born. Almost like His birth was out of turn as well!

Seth, Moses, Shem (supposedly there's evidence Shem was the second born,) Isaac, Joseph, Ephraim, Andrew / Peter, Nephi, Joseph / Hyrum, etc. etc. The fact that Isaac, Joseph, Ephraim all received the birthright "out of turn" is certainly a heavenly clue that by no means diminishes Ephraim's birthright.

I believe part of this is deference to the Lord, but the greater symbol here is that nobody receives a heavenly birthright by age or by order of birth - only by earning the birthright. The Lord naming Ephraim firstborn in Jeremiah 31 is certainly telling. Why would the Lord be born by a non-birthright tribe if it isn't the least of the tribes? Some random middle tribe?

Of course there is the symbolism of eternal rounds and how one earns firstborn (D&C 93) rather than being blessed by happenstance. "You were the first spirit born. Congratulations. You will never sin ever because you will have to be innocent to atone for everyone else."

What really stands out to me is the Twins Types:
Messiah and Lucifer
Abel and Cain
Issac and Ishmael

The struggle for birthright or covenant blessings.

Jacob and Esau

Genesis 25:24 ¶ And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.
26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau’s heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.

Judah's offspring twins Zarah and Pharez through his union with his daughter-in-law Tamar after his sons Er and Onah were slain by the Lord.

Genesis 38:27 ¶ And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins were in her womb.
28 And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first.
29 And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez.
30 And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.

Matthew 1:3 indicates the birthright passed through Pharez, though the scarlet thread was placed on the hand that breached first. So even here you have an out-of-order twins situation. Judah had three sons, the eldest of which was Er. The law that required brothers to marry their dead brother's widow came into effect when the second son, Onan married her. Onan famously had some aiming issues which angered the Lord who slew him.

Judah thought Tamar was a harlot by the way she was dressed which is how he accidentally passed the birthright along through his own daughter-in-law. It's all very convoluted and interesting. Judah thought Tamar was cursed and was hesitant to give his third son Shelah to her. Pharez obviously wasn't even the first born to Judah as Shelah survived and had children of his own. Yet the birthright passed through Pharez.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelah_(son_of_Judah)

[Love]

Isaiah Chapter 11:13
The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah
shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not
vex Ephraim.

[abijah]

What really stands out to me is the Twins Types:
Messiah and Lucifer
Abel and Cain
Issac and Ishmael

The struggle for birthright or covenant blessings.

Yes, though I don't personally think Messiah and Lucifer are twins. I think they share the same father, born of different mothers. Kind of like Judah and Joseph. I think the Messiah and his consort are twins. Keeping the line pure init

[Alaris]

I was just reading "The Book of Jasher" - If true, Even Abraham was a younger son:

Jasher 9:1 And Haran, the son of Terah, Abram's oldest brother, took a wife in those days.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/9.htm

[Love]

I was just reading "The Book of Jasher" - If true, Even Abraham was a younger son:

Jasher 9:1 And Haran, the son of Terah, Abram's oldest brother, took a wife in those days.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/9.htm

Haran is Lots Father nephew to Abraham.

[Alaris]

I was just reading "The Book of Jasher" - If true, Even Abraham was a younger son:

Jasher 9:1 And Haran, the son of Terah, Abram's oldest brother, took a wife in those days.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/9.htm

Haran is Lots Father nephew to Abraham.

Right, but El Bible doesn't say who is the eldest of Abraham and his brothers--at least not where I was reading in Genesis.

[Samuel]

It should not be, but it is because many think they are the one. I attended the funeral of Harold B. Lee many years ago. Heber C. Kimble spoke. He was illustrating that the prophet Lee was a mighty man like a giant tree that fell. I associated this with the one mighty and strong. I did not know what Kimble was implying, but I though how President Lee interfered with the Quorum of Twelve wanting to give the Blacks the priesthood. Was this interference what cause Kimble to say why Harold B Lee fell so quickly. I attended the Temple many times with President Lee and thought him to be healthy. I wonder if Kimble thought himself to be the one mighty and strong. It was only speculation at the time. What was most interesting is that Kimble talked of revelation that it was deep down and the the sun has not gone down over the prophets. I could only conclude that he was talking about the Holy Ghost. No prophet other than this has come close to talking about the one mighty and strong. Most theories come from writers from BYU or other sources. What I will say is that the one mighty and stone and the rod of Jesse are both associated with much power. BYU thinks the rod of Jesse is Joseph Smith. I think not. I feel strongly that the one mighty and strong will be associated with the redemption of Zion. When the Lord told Brigham Young in section 136 that "Zion will be redeemed in my own due time", it make perfectly good sense but who will ever teach this.

[I AM]

Did you realize that in the 29th chapter of Isaiah he describes the coming forth
of the original plates of the Book of Mormon and the attitude
of the people against it.

taken from: LDS Seminary Student Study Guide

"Isaiah 29 is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name.
As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

If the 29th Chapter of Isaiah refers to our people and nation,
then it is very feasible that the 28th chapter may also refer to us.
If you want a big wake up call please read it !
If you study this 28th chapter of Isaiah
it will reveal that every word applies to our church in these days
and to no other people.
Isaiah cites that this people would be given "precept upon precept;
precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little."
These identical words, were used by the Prophet Joseph Smith among his closing instructions
to the latter day saints, warning us to go forward not backward. D.C.128:21-22 ; 2Nephi 28:30

Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."

We are still satisfied with the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

Isaiah 28:
9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,precept upon precept,
precept upon precept;a trifle here, a trifle there.

Isaiah28:1 "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower,
which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!"

Salt Lake City is a "fat valley" if I've ever seen one.
It is very sobering to wake up and find the sad condition we are in.

[I AM]

This mighty and strong one, who is a type of Christ and has a holy mission more similar to Jesus'
than anyone who has ever lived is the David servant, marred servant.
This marred servant, marred because most members
will not believe his words is John the Revelator.

I believe that John is the marred servant - the prophet - the Davidic king
that we all are watching and waiting for to come.

I believe he will have Christ's words. He will bring forth a record,
(the sealed portion of the (B of M) yet many (church and church members)
will not believe him or receive his words., and they will be cut off from the Lord.

3 Nephi 21: 8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

This is not Joseph Smith, because this "servant", "shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him",
Joseph Smith was killed.

He will be a descendent of Jesse, or of the
royal Davidic lineage.
he will be a righteous ruler because he will
judge the people, hence he is a Davidic king.

It is this mission, ( he saw himself in Revelations)
what his own mission would be; to gather Israel
in the last days, and be an Elias - a forerunner
to the coming of Christ. Just as John the Baptist
was an Elias - a forerunner to Christ.
For this important mission he (John the Rev.)
has tarried in the flesh for 19 centuries.

An Assignment to John (Rev. 10)
At this point, an angel informs John of a “sweet” but “bitter” assignment for him to gather Israel “before the time of [Christ’s] coming .” (See D&C 77:12, 14.)

He is the "Root of Jessie" in Isaiah 11,
also the Davidic King and may also be the
Man like Moses, and whom rightly belongs,
who holds the keys of the
priesthood and the kingdom.
D&C113:4-6 6 "Behold, thus saith the Lord,
it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph,
unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood,
and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign,
and for the gathering of my people in the last days"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
D&C113
1 Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in the
1st, 2d, 3d, 4th, and 5th verses of the
11th chapter of Isaiah?

2 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is Christ.

3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the
11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?

4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ,
who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim,
or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.

5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?

6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse,
as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood,
and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign,
and for the gathering of my people in the last days.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Nephi 21:10
10 "But behold, the life of my servant
shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him,
although he shall be marred because of them.
Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them
that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil."

Isaiah 52:15 "sprinkle many nations"
Joseph Smith translated this to be -
"Gather many nation" see JS trans.
Isaiah 52:
14 "As many were astonished at thee;
his visage was so marred more than any man,
and his form more than the sons of men:
15 So shall he SPRINKLE (JST gather) many nations;
the kings shall shut their mouths at him:
for that which had not been told them shall they see;
and that which they had not heard shall they consider."

[Durzan]

I believe that John is the marred servant - the prophet - the Davidic king
that we all are watching and waiting for to come.

Not likely. John is already translated, which means that he cannot be physically harmed or killed. His mission is to minister to the Ten Tribes before they are retrieved (and possibly to be the one who physically leads them to America).

The Marred Servant is the Lord's Prophet to be raised up unto Ephraim (IE the LDS Church). The task of the Marred Servant is far different, dealing with the establishment of the physical City of Zion, and the redeeming of the spiritual City of Zion. His task may or may not include the actual physical gathering of the Ten Tribes, and the Restoration of All Things (assuming that this task, which was started by Joseph Smith, wasn't completed before he was assassinated)

The Davidic Servant fulfills a similar role, but will be raised up unto the Jews. He may not be a member of the LDS Church (but then again, he may be).

I suspect that both the Marred Servant and the Davidic Servant will end up being the two prophets who defend Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years. This is why I believe that there are TWO "Last Prophets before the Second Coming" though I tend to put my focus on the Marred Servant, because he will be the Prophet directly concerns us Members of the LDS Church. But that is just a hunch.

[Love]

I believe that John is the marred servant - the prophet - the Davidic king
that we all are watching and waiting for to come.

Not likely. John is already translated, which means that he cannot be physically harmed or killed. His mission is to minister to the Ten Tribes before they are retrieved (and possibly to be the one who physically leads them to America).

The Marred Servant is the Lord's Prophet to be raised up unto Ephraim (IE the LDS Church). The task of the Marred Servant is far different, dealing with the establishment of the physical City of Zion, and the redeeming of the spiritual City of Zion. His task may or may not include the actual physical gathering of the Ten Tribes, and the Restoration of All Things (assuming that this task, which was started by Joseph Smith, wasn't completed before he was assassinated)

The Davidic Servant fulfills a similar role, but will be raised up unto the Jews. He may not be a member of the LDS Church (but then again, he may be).

I suspect that both the Marred Servant and the Davidic Servant will end up being the two prophets who defend Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years. This is why I believe that there are TWO "Last Prophets before the Second Coming" though I tend to put my focus on the Marred Servant, because he will be the Prophet directly concerns us Members of the LDS Church. But that is just a hunch.

1.Christ Stem Hebrew (geza)= to cut down
Servants Branch Hebrew (natzer) = descendants like Nazareth

2.Jesse and Ephriam Rod Hebrew (shebet)= staff, club, scepter

3.Jesse and Joseph Root Hebrew (shoresh) = deep root, or desendants

[I AM]

Revelation 10

8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said,
Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book.
And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter,
but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

10 And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
--------------------------------------------
D&C 77

14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was
eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?

A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance,
for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias,
who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.
----------------------------------------
D&C113

5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?

6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse,
as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood,
and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign,
and for the gathering of my people in the last days.
----------------------------------------------------------------

"And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God.
While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning. And all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailing and gnashing of teeth.'"
(D&C 85:7-9)
-----------------

quote

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
(3 Nephi 21:9-11.)

Who is the marred servant? It is quite important that we know, because God said those who do not hearken unto him will be cut off from his people of the covenant. (3 Nephi 21:11)
Whoever he is, he must preach to a people who are already of the covenant, as you can't be cut off from something you don't already have.
Could it be Joseph Smith? While Joseph Smith was indeed marred by "them," he was not healed.
I suppose he could be resurrected and preach again to the church that rejected him.
The other alternative is that God will raise up a servant to preach to the LDS church, and he will be rejected by them.
---------------
some other quotes on this Davidic servant

Davidic Servant (also Branch Prophet, One Mighty and Strong; see also Messiah, Immanuel)
(1) Those who function in the order of the Davidic Servant, making up the quorum of 144,000.
(2) A servant of God who cries repentance to the Lord's latter-day people who have lapsed into apostasy from their destined mission to establish the kingdom of God on the earth.
He will be marred by them and then healed by the Lord in conjunction with a marvelous deliverance of an awakened remnant who will build Zion.
(3) The Davidic Servant will be to the Mormons what Joseph Smith was to Christianity and what Jesus Christ was to the Jews and what Moses was to Paganism -- a quantum leap forward; new wine, unfit for old bottles.
(4) The Davidic Servant is a Messianic role of the Father,
who is one with the Son, who came among the Jews.
-------------------------------------------------
Most importantly, he is to the Mormons what Jesus was to the Jews. He is the second advent of Messiah.
He is the one mighty and strong sent to set the house of God in order.

The Mormons are prophesied to mar the Davidic Servant, in a parallel to the Jews' crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The triumphal regeneration or healing following that marring will be on a parallel with the resurrection. And as Jesus' mission was about individual salvation, the Davidic Servant's mission will be about societal salvation; and in conjunction with his healing will come a miraculous deliverance from the governmental beast which will have taken a stranglehold upon the entire earth at that point. A nation will be born in a day. The kingdom of God will be established on earth, no more to be thrown down. It will be Zion, a celestial people and city. It will start small, but will eventually (after the next 1000 years) fill the whole earth. Meanwhile, (as most citizens of the earth following the pending tribulations will be of a terrestrial order, none telestial having made it through the purgings of their own making) this Zion will be the capital of the world government that will reign in righteousness under Christ for 1000 years.

When the Mormons mar the Davidic Servant is when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled. They will have filled the measure of their iniquity, and the kingdom will be taken from them and given back to the house of Israel. Then is when the 144,000 go forth to bring in as many as will to the church of the firstborn, which is a celestial order. The world at large will still be very wicked during this time, for the final purgings of the whole earth have not yet happened. The Jews will not yet be converted.

[abijah]

The davidic heir to come is of Christ’s literal seed. This alone disqualifies John the revelator.

[Durzan]

where’d you get that one?

[I AM]

The davidic heir to come is of Christ’s literal seed. This alone disqualifies John the revelator.

I believe that John the Beloved is the Davidic King
and could be the son of Christ himself.
He was at most, if not all, of the important family events,
including being at the cross.
Naturally, Christ would ask him to take care of his mother,
because he would be John's grandmother.
Why else would John be the only apostle called "beloved"?

I also think John the Beloved, is the Davidic king
because he will also gather scattered Israel. Isaiah 49:5-7
He will lead the people of Israel to Zion and apportion the lands of their inheritance. Isaiah 49:8