"Stupid, youthful mistakes?"Murder 4 people. Meet with a GA. Get rebaptized

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DEEPER storm
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"Stupid, youthful mistakes?"Murder 4 people. Meet with a GA. Get rebaptized

Post by DEEPER storm »

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No, it was not "all about stupid youth mistakes". It involved the bombing and murder of a judge, his wife and one of their sons. It involved the torture and murder of another High School alumni, the murderers who did that were never found or prosecuted. It involved the murder and mutilation of a beautiful girl, a friend who did not graduate with me. It led to the only Wyoming execution since the 1960s. The executed had not done the murders. He was convicted and executed for ordering them. One of the murderers is the subject of this, who is now a re-baptized member of the LDS church. The entirety of the events shattered the community and left scars that still linger. http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-a ... 80630.html

JohnnyL
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Post by JohnnyL »

Wow. I'd say something, but I imagine the thread would be shut down.

e-eye2.0
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Post by e-eye2.0 »

The power of repentance. Reminds me a little of the anti-nephi lehi's and their stories. I can't imagine how hard it would be to come back from those sins, but it happens.

Tbone
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Re: "Stupid, youthful mistakes?"Murder 4 people. Meet with a GA. Get rebaptized

Post by Tbone »

I feel pretty conflicted after reading the article. In one sense it seems like Hickey got off easy by using the "devil (Hopkinson) made me do it" excuse. Plus, he committed acts for which there really can't be complete healing in this life. DEEPER storm apparently knows that first hand because he was friends with one of the victims. I've heard of people forgiving things like this, but it honestly makes me sick to my stomach pondering forgiving something so horrific done against somebody I loved.

In another sense, he paid the debt required by the government and he repented enough to be rebaptized. The Mike Hickey who murdered those people doesn't exist any more. Now it's just some guy who has to endure life knowing his past-self caused immense pain that still lingers in the hearts of community members. I haven't done anything near as bad to other people, but I often struggle to feel good about myself and my standing before God knowing that there are still people out there with negative feelings about me for the dumb things I've done in the past. I can't imagine the burden he feels. However, I believe in Jesus Christ's power to forgive and I really like e-eye2.0's comment.

I always doubt DEEPER storm's motives for his posts because they generally seem to done for the sole purpose of causing doubt, but they often bring up interesting and challenging thoughts.

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Robin Hood
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Re: "Stupid, youthful mistakes?"Murder 4 people. Meet with a GA. Get rebaptized

Post by Robin Hood »

I always thought murderers could not be baptised, or re-baptised.
I cannot understand this case.
This man killed innocent people; with the murder of the girl close-up and personal.
I am shocked that an apostle would approve his re-admittance to the church.

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inho
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Post by inho »

Robin Hood wrote: October 25th, 2017, 3:12 pm I always thought murderers could not be baptised, or re-baptised.
I cannot understand this case.
This man killed innocent people; with the murder of the girl close-up and personal.
I am shocked that an apostle would approve his re-admittance to the church.
The Handbook says that excommunication is mandatory in the case of murder. However, it is possible to come back to the church. The Handbook has a section on ending the excommunication and it mentions some cases when the approval of First Presidency is required. Murder is first on the list. This means that it is possible to be readmitted to the church even if you have murdered someone.

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DEEPER storm
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Re: "Stupid, youthful mistakes?"Murder 4 people. Meet with a GA. Get rebaptized

Post by DEEPER storm »

Tbone wrote: October 25th, 2017, 2:36 pm I feel pretty conflicted after reading the article. In one sense it seems like Hickey got off easy by using the "devil (Hopkinson) made me do it" excuse. Plus, he committed acts for which there really can't be complete healing in this life. DEEPER storm apparently knows that first hand because he was friends with one of the victims. I've heard of people forgiving things like this, but it honestly makes me sick to my stomach pondering forgiving something so horrific done against somebody I loved.

In another sense, he paid the debt required by the government and he repented enough to be rebaptized. The Mike Hickey who murdered those people doesn't exist any more. Now it's just some guy who has to endure life knowing his past-self caused immense pain that still lingers in the hearts of community members. I haven't done anything near as bad to other people, but I often struggle to feel good about myself and my standing before God knowing that there are still people out there with negative feelings about me for the dumb things I've done in the past. I can't imagine the burden he feels. However, I believe in Jesus Christ's power to forgive and I really like e-eye2.0's comment.

I always doubt DEEPER storm's motives for his posts because they generally seem to done for the sole purpose of causing doubt, but they often bring up interesting and challenging thoughts.


Hickey was not 15 when he murdered. Some of us knew about his history of torturing and killing animals. The excuse of drinking doesn't cut it either because most of us in that High School drank heavily too. Many classmates died in automobile accidents related to drinking but we didn't go out and murder and sexually mutilate a 15 year old girl who was one of my classmates and we didn't murder an attorney, his wife and son.

drtanner
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Post by drtanner »

No one knows the real details of this mans repentance process. I will say from my experience the church has never taken re-baptism lightly, I'm sure there is more to the story but ultimately lets say he was allowed to be baptized errantly there is only one true judge that validates all ordinances and it will be sorted out.

simpleton
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Post by simpleton »

Hickey should of been taken out and shot by a firing squad. would of been doing him a favor for his salvation. ( I am all about capital punishment) That is one sick twisted story .... "a murderer hath not eternal life"
Ok.... so i receive a call from whoever offering me money, position, fame, or whatever to kill somebody or some people... in this case happens to be 4... I agree and do the awful terrible deed , deeds.... I get caught, I get offered a deal... Snitch and I get off easy. where the hell is justice? As far as I am concerned his baptism or rebabtism is water on a ducks back... As all the baptisms in the world cannot wash away the sin of murder until the uttermost farthing is paid... And no, Jesus did not die for murderers... And calling it a "stupid youthful mistake" is flat out not true... murder is not a mistake, it is murder...

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LukeAir2008
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Re: "Stupid, youthful mistakes?"Murder 4 people. Meet with a GA. Get rebaptized

Post by LukeAir2008 »

According to the Scriptures, murder is unforgivable. Murderers cannot repent and will have to pay for their own sins. The Lord directs that murderers should be executed.

18 ​And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not ​​​kill​; and he that ​​​kills​ shall ​​​not​ have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.
​​​19 ​And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that ​​​killeth​ shall ​​​die​.
​​​79 ​And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall ​​​kill​ they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land.
(D&C 48:18-19, 79)

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David13
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Post by David13 »

I definitely see this as a case where he DID NOT pay his 'debt to society'. He should have been executed. That would be the only way his debt can be repaid.
dc

simpleton
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Post by simpleton »

At the funeral Levi Hancock.......
"President McAllister made some interesting remarks in relation to the life and labors of the deceased—spoke of his humility and integrity to the cause of God. Said that although he had been tried severely by hardships and poverty, he had stood firm to the end. He read a short account of the organization of the Seventies, and referred to the fact of Brother Levi being one of those who was called by the direct command of God.
"President Henry Harrirnan stated that Brother Hancock was the last of those first chosen to fill the Quorum of (the First Presidency of the Seventies. His labors were known throughout Israel, and his works praised him. He thanked God that he knew that his body would come forth in the first resurrection.
"Brother James Pace, a companion in arms in the Mexican war, gave many reminiscences of his (Brother Hancock's) life while in the Battalion, and related a circumstance that happened, showing the susceptibility of the man to the spirit of inspiration. A stranger, by the consent of the Battalion, joined the company, and soon after requested baptism. Brother Hancock, in company with others of the brethren, took him down to the Missouri and performed the ceremony. On raising him from his watery grave, he said, as if wrought upon by the Spirit, " If I have baptized a murderer it will do him no good." His words had such an effect upon the stranger that he soon made a confession that he was a murderer, having killed his brother......

Tbone
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Post by Tbone »

DEEPER storm wrote: October 25th, 2017, 3:58 pm Hickey was not 15 when he murdered. Some of us knew about his history of torturing and killing animals. The excuse of drinking doesn't cut it either because most of us in that High School drank heavily too. Many classmates died in automobile accidents related to drinking but we didn't go out and murder and sexually mutilate a 15 year old girl who was one of my classmates and we didn't murder an attorney, his wife and son.
DEEPER storm, I'm just curious if you were one of the people who commented anonymously in this blog post:

http://mormonism-unveiled.blogspot.com/ ... oming.html

They back up your comments on the animal torture and even comment on terrible abuse of a mentally disabled kid. Just awful.

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Robin Hood
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Re: "Stupid, youthful mistakes?"Murder 4 people. Meet with a GA. Get rebaptized

Post by Robin Hood »

LukeAir2008 wrote: October 25th, 2017, 4:23 pm According to the Scriptures, murder is unforgivable. Murderers cannot repent and will have to pay for their own sins. The Lord directs that murderers should be executed.

18 ​And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not ​​​kill​; and he that ​​​kills​ shall ​​​not​ have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.
​​​19 ​And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that ​​​killeth​ shall ​​​die​.
​​​79 ​And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall ​​​kill​ they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land.
(D&C 48:18-19, 79)
I think that pretty much sums it up.

Do we know for sure that he has been re-baptised? The article says so, but the media is not renowned for it's accuracy or attention to detail.

JohnnyL
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Post by JohnnyL »

Now, if he got his temple ordinances, that would really make this interesting...

The A-N-L were not members of the church; they did not have the gospel; they had not been previously baptized; their culture, for hundreds of years, was murder, etc.

That all said, no doubt we are required to forgive even this man.

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Post by Juliet »

Well this is an interesting thread. If any one really thinks murder is serious and unforgivable and wants to help me stop the murder and rape of innocent children, send me a pm.

There are many murderers and sexual mutilators out there.

I would go so far to say that the demons in charge of such wickedness are as much a part of the human experience as all the other demons and sins. To deny so would mean you are hiding similar sins yourself or are incredibly naive. I mean come on, has anyone read the book of Mormon?

One of the ways the demonic strongholds of murder sets in, is because of an unhealthy dose of justice and unforgiveness. Look at Anakin, his unforgiveness about what happened to his mother destroyed him.

As much as we hate it, we are not followers of Jesus if we don't forgive. I mean Jesus forgave his murderers while suffering the pain of what they did to him. So, do we really want to follow Jesus? Consider the price.I am fine with people not wanting to forgive, but just be honest that you don't believe in Christ's teachings. Of course Jesus requires repentance but I know for myself, Jesus has always been understanding of my own pain and allowed me to come to Him for relief as part of escaping and repenting from my satanic cult where children and babies are killed and sacrificed regularly.

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Robin Hood
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Re: "Stupid, youthful mistakes?"Murder 4 people. Meet with a GA. Get rebaptized

Post by Robin Hood »

Juliet wrote: October 26th, 2017, 7:08 am Well this is an interesting thread. If any one really thinks murder is serious and unforgivable and wants to help me stop the murder and rape of innocent children, send me a pm.

There are many murderers and sexual mutilators out there.

I would go so far to say that the demons in charge of such wickedness are as much a part of the human experience as all the other demons and sins. To deny so would mean you are hiding similar sins yourself or are incredibly naive. I mean come on, has anyone read the book of Mormon?

One of the ways the demonic strongholds of murder sets in, is because of an unhealthy dose of justice and unforgiveness. Look at Anakin, his unforgiveness about what happened to his mother destroyed him.

As much as we hate it, we are not followers of Jesus if we don't forgive. I mean Jesus forgave his murderers while suffering the pain of what they did to him. So, do we really want to follow Jesus? Consider the price.I am fine with people not wanting to forgive, but just be honest that you don't believe in Christ's teachings. Of course Jesus requires repentance but I know for myself, Jesus has always been understanding of my own pain and allowed me to come to Him for relief as part of escaping and repenting from my satanic cult where children and babies are killed and sacrificed regularly.
I don't think anyone is arguing that we should not forgive this man. In fact, I have nothing to forgive him for because he didn't hurt me or my family.
The issue of concern relates to him being re-admitted by baptism into the church, given the scriptural description of the spiritual state of murderers. Baptism is for the remission of sins, yet the D&C clearly states there is no forgiveness (meaning God's forgiveness) for this sin in this life or the next.
So, I am confused.

On a more general point, I agree with you that tnere are a lot of people with blood on their hands.

lundbaek
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Re: "Stupid, youthful mistakes?"Murder 4 people. Meet with a GA. Get rebaptized

Post by lundbaek »

I recall the story of woman who, as a youth in New Zealand, participated in the murder of a friend's mother. Years later she joined the LDS Church and lived in Scotland, where she became a fairly well known author. Robin Hood can maybe fill us in on more of that story.

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Robin Hood
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Post by Robin Hood »

lundbaek wrote: October 26th, 2017, 11:08 am I recall the story of woman who, as a youth in New Zealand, participated in the murder of a friend's mother. Years later she joined the LDS Church and lived in Scotland, where she became a fairly well known author. Robin Hood can maybe fill us in on more of that story.
Sorry lundbaek, I have never heard of this.

Lizzy60
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Post by Lizzy60 »

lundbaek wrote: October 26th, 2017, 11:08 am I recall the story of woman who, as a youth in New Zealand, participated in the murder of a friend's mother. Years later she joined the LDS Church and lived in Scotland, where she became a fairly well known author. Robin Hood can maybe fill us in on more of that story.
Anne Perry

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Robin Hood
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Post by Robin Hood »

lundbaek wrote: October 26th, 2017, 11:08 am I recall the story of woman who, as a youth in New Zealand, participated in the murder of a friend's mother. Years later she joined the LDS Church and lived in Scotland, where she became a fairly well known author. Robin Hood can maybe fill us in on more of that story.
I have found it now.
Anne Perry.
Not quite the same in a number of respects, but thought provoking nonetheless.

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LukeAir2008
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Re: "Stupid, youthful mistakes?"Murder 4 people. Meet with a GA. Get rebaptized

Post by LukeAir2008 »

Robin Hood wrote: October 26th, 2017, 11:27 am
lundbaek wrote: October 26th, 2017, 11:08 am I recall the story of woman who, as a youth in New Zealand, participated in the murder of a friend's mother. Years later she joined the LDS Church and lived in Scotland, where she became a fairly well known author. Robin Hood can maybe fill us in on more of that story.
Sorry lundbaek, I have never heard of this.
She was my Sunday School teacher...

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Robin Hood
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Post by Robin Hood »

LukeAir2008 wrote: October 26th, 2017, 12:26 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 26th, 2017, 11:27 am
lundbaek wrote: October 26th, 2017, 11:08 am I recall the story of woman who, as a youth in New Zealand, participated in the murder of a friend's mother. Years later she joined the LDS Church and lived in Scotland, where she became a fairly well known author. Robin Hood can maybe fill us in on more of that story.
Sorry lundbaek, I have never heard of this.
She was my Sunday School teacher...
So, you live in Scotland?

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mmm..cheese
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Post by mmm..cheese »

It is not our place to tell a person that they cannot repent if they take the steps necessary. It is something taught in all churches and is just an obvious plain truth about God. Let Him be the judge.

JohnnyL
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Re: "Stupid, youthful mistakes?"Murder 4 people. Meet with a GA. Get rebaptized

Post by JohnnyL »

Robin Hood wrote: October 26th, 2017, 1:25 pm
LukeAir2008 wrote: October 26th, 2017, 12:26 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 26th, 2017, 11:27 am
lundbaek wrote: October 26th, 2017, 11:08 am I recall the story of woman who, as a youth in New Zealand, participated in the murder of a friend's mother. Years later she joined the LDS Church and lived in Scotland, where she became a fairly well known author. Robin Hood can maybe fill us in on more of that story.
Sorry lundbaek, I have never heard of this.
She was my Sunday School teacher...
So, you live in Scotland?
Isn't "Highland" Scotland? :))

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