And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

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friendsofthe
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And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by friendsofthe »

New blog...

With all of the hype and speculation surrounding Rev. 12:1-2 and Sept. 23, 2017, I thought it would be a good idea to examine what the Lord has given us on this topic in modern day revelation...

http://thebridegroomcometh.net/and-ther ... in-heaven/

gangbusters
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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by gangbusters »

Very compelling and well supported argument. Thanks.

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Alaris
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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by Alaris »

Firstly I'll point out again again that I don't know of a single LDS person who said there would be significant, public events on 9/23. So to say that "nothing happened" on 9/23 is somehow proof that these LDS were mistaken is foolhardy. Moreover, I must point out again again that if you compare this sign to the sign of the birth of Jesus Christ, both signs have all of the following:

  • Buildup to the sign
  • Accompanying signs
  • Only few "see"
  • The event came and went with most of the world believing "nothing happened"
That should bother you at least a little.

Secondly there have been a ton of accompanying events prophesied by the Lord in Luke, and He says there will be signs, plural, in the heavens without actually detailing the sign:
Luke 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
25 ¶ And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring
Here's the JST of Luke 21:24

24 Now these things he spake unto them, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem. And then his disciples asked him, saying, Master, tell us concerning thy coming?
25 And he answered them, and said, In the generation in which the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled, there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations with perplexity, like the sea and the waves roaring. The earth also shall be troubled, and the waters of the great deep;
26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth. For the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
So to take any sign and say "nothing" flies seems rather brash given the Lord's prophesies.

The heathen media is even wondering what's going on? Yet how many LDS here are declaring "nothing" - beyond baffling:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/201 ... 725889001/

In your blog you state that the scriptures and prophets don't mention the sign. Only they do. First the Lord Himself said there would be signs in the heavens. So did John. In the JST version of Revelation Joseph Smith reinforces that a sign appears in heavens in the likeness of things on earth. Can that sign that actually appear in the heavens symbolize likenesses past present and future or was there a part of that scripture that says that the likenesses all happen when the sign appears in the heaven?

Perhaps I missed it but I don't see where you explain when the sign appears in the heaven?

Finally, saying such a wonder as the sign on 9/23 and all the Jewish holy days that surround the sign and how the key words of those days and the Jewish name for Jupiter is all a coincidence is beyond presumptuous. The sign doesn't even end on 9/23! Jupiter - TZEDEK - RIGHTEOUSNESS moves to the scales of Justice next.
Though the Apostles in the absence of President Monson did not declare it a sign, they certainly didn't say it was nothing did they? In fact several of them made references to the eclipse, solar flares, turmoil, and many of the parallel prophecied events. I personally felt this was a wink to those looking and seeing as I certainly don't presume the brethren are unaware.

So if they don't say 9/23 was nothing, how can you?

dafty
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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by dafty »

wow u actually kept urself well composed ?!?! lol🤣
Ps. Funny that, ur last paragraph about The Brethren.2 weeks ago I almost made same argument(but didnt in the end coz I simply give up lol), thinking that if they believed its all rubbish whilst seeing how many people fall for it-surely they would have debunked it...yet they didnt🤔

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friendsofthe
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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by friendsofthe »

Alaris, I would have known nothing about this Rev. 12 / Sept. 23 thing if it was not for all of the discussion on this, The LDS Freedom Forum. So I have assumed that some members of the forum feel the whole thing has a certain degree of viability or credibility, I’m not one of them and I’m not alone by a long shot. I felt it was pretty much all folly from the beginning and even started a thread saying so. I’ve been on the forum for quite some time now and have seen these things come and go in the past with no apparent proof of fulfillment. However, I have never pointed fingers at individuals and I’m all for allowing anyone on the forum to think what they may. Please don’t take anything I write personally, it’s not meant that way!

I do my best not to get my knickers all in a knot when someone disagrees with something I’ve said and suggest that you consider doing the same. We apparently aren’t ever going to agree on this topic so I’m thinking that we’ll just have to agree to disagree.. God bless…

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Alaris
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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by Alaris »

friendsofthe wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:03 pm Alaris, I would have known nothing about this Rev. 12 / Sept. 23 thing if it was not for all of the discussion on this, The LDS Freedom Forum.
Here's the first problem with the conclusions you've reached. You wouldn't have known about the sign if it weren't for LDSFF? That's one of your reasons? With the invention of the Internets, knowing of this sign was and is super easy. The sign has also been on TV and in newspapers.

How you were made aware of something is hardly a reason to discard something is it? I know someone who was converted by meeting mormons online in a video game. So, since she was made aware of the church through a video game, she should discard it? Perhaps I'm reading too far into your statement here. If I am, then I do not understand the relevancy here.
friendsofthe wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:03 pm So I have assumed that some members of the forum feel the whole thing has a certain degree of viability or credibility, I’m not one of them and I’m not alone by a long shot.
This is actually does not help your argument at all. Since when is popularity a reason to disbelieve something? In fact the scriptures I posted above prove that only those who look will even see the signs for what they are. I just watched President Hinckely's CNN video and he told Larry King how we don't criticize or mock other religions but we respect their beliefs. Yet since this "whole thing has a certain degree of viability or credibility" it's OK to create threads mocking fellow LDS who believe the sign? HUH? For the passerby here, friendsofthe created a "let's have fun with 9/23" thread.
friendsofthe wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:03 pm I felt it was pretty much all folly from the beginning and even started a thread saying so. I’ve been on the forum for quite some time now and have seen these things come and go in the past with no apparent proof of fulfillment.
Again, might I draw your mind to a sacred night ~ 2,000 years ago? Were there those looking to the star who never considered the sign in humility and who tossed it out because it was popular to do so? Were there those who were waiting to see "proof" that never came?

Who were those who received a witness on that sacred night?
Ether 12:6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.
The proof didn't come for 30 years, and even then with the miracles on display, how many Jews rejected the Son of God using the same reasoning you've listed here?
friendsofthe wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:03 pm However, I have never pointed fingers at individuals and I’m all for allowing anyone on the forum to think what they may. Please don’t take anything I write personally, it’s not meant that way!
Well let's try to reverse the tables here. Let's say you notice a sign in the heavens that was first discovered by someone outside the church - a christian. As you study and ponder the sign with an open heart the spirit witnesses to you that it is indeed a sign but means something else entirely. Excited, you come here to spread the good news. All a reader needs to do is consider the sign with an open heart, sincerity, and prayer. Yet those who already "know better" and never consider the sign in sincerity will never be able to see it! Some do consider and they receive their own witness! Hallelujah! Then there are many LDS who oddly immediately discard the sign and then mock those who believe it?? HUH? Should we ever shame others for their sacred beliefs????

How did you put it? "I’ve been on the forum for quite some time now and have seen these things come and go in the past with no apparent proof of fulfillment." So you already know these signs never offer any proof .. .uh do you not see how contrary this thinking is to how signs and witnesses work (see Ether 12:6 above?) God has put his genius in his model where you must have belief - FAITH - then the witness comes. It's not too late to humble yourself and study this sign with an open heart. This is why it is so foolish to marry pride to "knowing better" before inquiring of the Lord. See the four gospels for plenty of examples of this.
1 Nephi 15:8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?
friendsofthe wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:03 pm I do my best not to get my knickers all in a knot when someone disagrees with something I’ve said and suggest that you consider doing the same.
So it's OK for you to create threads mocking signs other LDS believe in - those LDS who have received a witness of the Holy Spirit should just "not get their knickers in a knot" - I'm sorry but that is not a very appropriate saying, is it? "Don't get your knickers in a knot" is both inappropriate and insulting, but it matches the spirit in which you have engaged this sign from the beginning. You already "knew better" without inquiring of the Lord in humility and sincerity. There are no fruits of humility or sincerity in any of your posts on 9/23. Could it be that someone who blogs so actively about the end times has possibly missed such an important sign? Could it be that someone discards said sign because they weren't the one to unveil it first? I certainly hope not because that would be tragic.
friendsofthe wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:03 pm We apparently aren’t ever going to agree on this topic so I’m thinking that we’ll just have to agree to disagree.. God bless…
We can and we will some day. Some day I will see I was wrong or I was right about the sign. I have stood up for what I believe in either case and will have to account for how I have stood up for what I believe. I also stand against mocking fellow LDS and non-LDS, and have fought against such vigorously on this site striving to reject the sin but love the sinner. Not easy.

Ironically, whether you are right about the sign "being nothing" (see last post) you will some day realize you were wrong to mock those who believe it is a sign regardless of their being mistaken or not. People disagree with this or that on your blogs all the time. I have done so. Usually people do it respectfully. Please try to golden rule this and you'll see just how far out of line you've stepped. Would you:

Appreciate someone creating threads mocking your understanding of important end times prophecies?
Appreciate that same someone telling you not to get their knickers in a knot?
Feel frustrated that this someone and others have all rejected something you've spent a great deal of time, study, and thought and had the spirit confirm without ever giving it due consideration?
How would you then feel as you watch that every single person who rejects the sign shows fruits of pride and mocking?

Do you even realize that those who mock and scoff those who believe in end times signs is an end time sign itself
2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
Do you realize that by mocking you are adding credibility to the sign especially because you are of Ephraim?
Isaiah 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
There are zero fruits of you ever having considered this in humility. Scoffing / mocking are fruits of the opposite. What on earth would drive someone who spends so much time studying end times events to scoff / mock those - didn't you say somewhere that you "already know what Revelation 12" means? Seriously ... if I remember that correctly, that's quite a claim. Revelation 12 was at least in part fulfilled on September 23rd and I can't imagine ever making such a claim that I know all the meaning of a chapter in scripture. The more I learn the more I realize there are layers upon layers and layers of meaning, and that is why anyone who claims they can look at a heavenly alignment and try to somehow authoritatively state "yeah that means nothing" is completely off kilter.

I also noticed how you did not address any of the points above where I completely dismantled the points you made in your blog. I could have scoffed and mocked you along ever single point I made then and now, but that would serve no other purpose than the break the law of Christ and to destroy my credibility as his disciple and the credibility of my position.

Scoffing is never a good way to learn heavenly knowledge
Mocking others is wrong - mocking fellow LDS who differ on interpretation is certainly wrong
Saying a heavenly alignment is "nothing" is preposterously arrogant
Not a single person who has declared 9/23 to be "nothing" has shown fruits meet for Ether 12:6 and certainly not Ether 12:27.

While we are in Ether:
Ether 4:16 And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed.

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friendsofthe
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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by friendsofthe »

Wow, take a chill pill....

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Alaris
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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by Alaris »

friendsofthe wrote: October 7th, 2017, 11:58 pm Wow, take a chill pill....
Perhaps I would be more chill if roles were reversed here and something possessed me to declare that a heavenly alignment meant nothing and proceeded to mock the sign multiple times after knowing fellow LDS believed it to be a legitimate sign from God. If you took the time to search it out and received a deep, spiritual witness then perhaps you would be passionately defending your beliefs while I told you to take a chill pill. Except I haven't told anyone to take a chill pill since I was a teenager. I guess anything is possible since in this scenario I'm declaring heavenly signs mean nothing as though I am either God himself or know his mind on all matters pertaining to heavenly signs and could thereby safely declare the things that don't mean anything.

Bronco73idi
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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by Bronco73idi »

I personally agree with Alaris, The funny part is the sign said you wouldn't see it, cloth by the sun....

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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by gardener4life »

It's interesting that there have been repeated blood moons after the first one years ago. And their frequency is up. We have 4 hurricanes hitting the US this year, (Nate was hurricane classification briefly though it didn't do as much as the others.) The signs are speeding up. I think 9/23 was a marker of when things would start escalating not that it would be a day itself of much noticable.

Its interesting that if you have and exercise faith in Christ there will always be things we have to act on without complete knowledge, but that knowledge would be filled in later! It's cool that the gaps will be filled in to us after the fact as we exercise and keep faith. I know its very real that some things also are given to us as freebies. We're so lucky to have scriptures. Think ...if you lived in the early church eras before the apostasy maybe you only had the gospels...and people in Noah's day probably only had a thicker book of Genesis than we did. But we sometimes refuse to acknowledge all the treasures of knowledge we're given.

I was thinking in Daniel too there's that part where he describes the 3 1/2 years as a 'time, a times and a half' or in other words he describes it as 1 year, and then 2 1/2 years making up the 3 1/2. I keep wondering if that means that the first year that things aren't as noticable at first. Then people realize what is happening, or there's a change in the ferocity of the ball game where the 2 1/2 years starts?

Regardless, we must use the Spirit and prayer to try to get answers to gospel questions and prayers.

I hope you can also be accepting of people sharing ideas like Alaris and others.

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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by BeNotDeceived »

gardener4life wrote: October 9th, 2017, 12:27 am ... I think 9/23 was a marker of when things would start escalating not that it would be a day itself of much noticable.

Its interesting that if you have and exercise faith in Christ there will always be things we have to act on without complete knowledge, but that knowledge would be filled in later! It's cool that the gaps will be filled in to us after the fact as we exercise and keep faith. ...

I hope you can also be accepting of people sharing ideas like Alaris and others.
My understanding is that it marks the beginning of a Gestation Period, similar to a Period of Preparation. Just google "period of preparation" and append "lds" to your query, and you will see that not all Periods of Preparation, are seven years in length. 0030, 1830, 2030? was where an intriguing idea began to be explored. Provocative statements were made as an experiment was formulated. :P

Seemed 1830 wasn't relevant, and 2030 was off by one-year. Seven years was assumed at the time, but now I realize that it was without complete knowledge. Knowledge, indeed was filled in by a 4-dimensional representation shown in 2.

Image

Similarly a gestation period is now understood to have begun. How and when we will know the length of said Gestation Period, is also a missing detail from another intriguing idea, detailed to some degree in scripture, as thankfully Alaris and others have made us aware.


"Without music, or an intriguing idea, colour becomes pallor, man becomes carcass, home becomes catacomb, and the dead are, but for a moment, motionless … “

dafty
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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by dafty »

LDS Anarchist wrote: October 9th, 2017, 1:05 pm From your blog:
friendsofthe wrote: October 7th, 2017, 9:55 am In the recent past there has been a great deal of discussion and promotion of theories surrounding the meaning and fulfillment of Rev 12:1-2 and Sept. 23, 2017. From what I’ve been able to gather, these theories started with our Christian friends who do not believe in the restoration or latter day scripture as revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith. They therefore have less to go on than we who are members of the restored church.

In brief, the claim is that the recent alignment of stars and planets in Virgo constitutes the fulfilling of Rev. 12:1-2. If you need more background, the Internet is flooded with information regarding this subject…

These theories have even garnered the attention of some members of the LDS Church who insisted that something significant was going to unfold on the above stated date. As we look back at Sept. 23 it’s now quite apparent that it was pretty much just another day like any other.
I'm actually quite impressed with the Christians these days. There were two sides: one side saying this wasn't the sign that John witnessed in his vision and they warned the Christians who believed in it to pipe down (and this was the side that was correct), and then there was the side of Christians who believed that it was the sign that John witnessed, and these thought it might indicate the rapture, while a few others thought it might indicate the appearance of the third Elijah (and obviously these people were in error, for nothing occurred.)

September 23rd came and went and most of the Christians who erroneously believed that this was the sign that John saw basically said, "Well, I guess we were wrong, but it doesn't hurt to wait and watch for the signs, as Jesus said. Praise the Lord!" In other words, they acted with integrity.

A few others wouldn't let go entirely, saying that maybe they got the date wrong, and so they moved the goal posts further down the line, wondering if perhaps on that date something would happen. These also were (and will be) wrong. But I expect that at some point they will, like the other Christians, simply say, "We were wrong."

So, the Christians have gone up a notch in my view, for they followed the principle found here in the Book of Mormon:
But it came to pass that they soon became converted, and were convinced of the error which they were in, for it was made known unto them that the law was not yet fulfilled, and that it must be fulfilled in every whit; yea, the word came unto them that it must be fulfilled; yea, that one jot or tittle should not pass away till it should all be fulfilled; therefore in this same year were they brought to a knowledge of their error and did confess their faults. (3 Nephi 1:25)
and acknowledged their errors and confessed their faults. This shows that they acted in good faith. In other words, they weren't possessed of a lying spirit, they were merely mistaken in their assessments. Those possessed of lying spirits act differently than that. Instead of confessing their error, they continue to assert false accusations and claims despite being corrected, and resort to interpreting everything as having a "secret and hidden act" that nobody can see or verify. In other words, they'll say, "Something did happen, but we just don't know about it, because it was done privately or in secret." This is all nonsense, of course, and is how lying spirits, and those who are possessed of a lying spirit, operate.

A case in point: I once knew a man who, like me, thought that by a particular date something might happen. We both watched and waited, but when the date came, nothing had happened. I said, "Well, I guess it will happen on some future date because obviously nothing happened on this date." And he said, "It happened, alright, but in secret." He was so entirely invested in his idea that it must occur on that specific date, that he just refused to acknowledge his error and confess his fault and give up the idea that it did, indeed, happen, when it so obviously didn't happen. I, on the other hand, was not invested in any date, only in the conditions, which conditions were proper at the time, but could also be proper at a future time, therefore, I was ambivalent about any date, only watching at that particular time because the conditions appeared right. But as nothing happened, I moved it to the future without fanfare.

Lying spirits seem to obsess about dates. If the world gives you a date for the fulfillment of some prophecy, know for a fact that on that date nothing will happen, just as nothing happened on September 23rd, or at the 40-week point from the solar eclipse, or from any other nonsensical imaginings of the mind. In all my years of prophesying, I've never yet uttered a prophecy with a date attached. Even the date that I give for the close of the sixth thousand years and the opening of the seventh thousand years, which is 11 April 2033, is a calculation, not a prophecy. It is based upon a manifested understanding of the resurrection of Christ being the mid-point of the earth's 8000 year existence, but that date itself is neither a prophecy nor a revelation; it's merely my best calculation from the resurrection of Christ.

Another thing a lying spirit will do is refuse to accept any correction. Remember when Alma and Amulek went to Ammonihah to preach and the people kept saying that they had reviled against their law? And yet they plainly didn't revile against the law. But they kept insisting that this was the narrative, all evidence to the contrary. And when they taught that the Son of God won't save anyone in their sins, their words were twisted and it was falsely stated that they were commanding God. The only way to get through to a person who is possessed with a lying spirit is by giving them a dose of truth, but if they ignore and reject that truth and do not self-correct, there is no remedy. Apostates routinely employ the use of lying spirits, ignoring and rejecting all truth and correction that may come their way. But also the latter-day saints can fall into these same errors. The problem with lying spirits is that they give "revelation" and "inspiration." Thus, a person possessed of such a demonic spirit can't distinguish truth from error because his spiritual manifestations come from the lying spirit (and not from the Holy Ghost), which he lifts up as "proof" that he is right, but he is just being carried about with every wind of doctrine:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Ephesians 4:14)
My experience is that unless a man possesses the gift of the discerning of spirits, he is as liable to accept a revelation from a lying spirit and claim it is from the Holy Ghost as he is to accept one from the actual Holy Ghost. He can't tell what's what. And I haven't found too many people that actually possess that gift. But really, an application of any of the best spiritual gifts will afford protection from such deceptions:
But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils. Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given; for verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments, and him that seeketh so to do; that all may be benefited that seek or that ask of me, that ask and not for a sign that they may consume it upon their lusts. (D&C 46:7-9)
But I will not explain how this is so.

Now, I'm going to offer a correction to your blog post, and we'll see how it goes down.

Most of your blog was to make the point that the symbolism of the great wonder that John saw in the heavens bespoke of the Restoration, but what you've missed is that everything that John saw would actually happen, including the wonder or sign itself.
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said,
Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
(Revelation 4:1)
Everything that comes after this verse are "things which must be hereafter." John was on the Isle of Patmos when he had this vision, and that was about 90 A.D., so everything we read from Revelation 4:2 and onward are things that would occur after 90 A.D.

This means that the great wonder that John saw as recorded in Revelation 12, which the Joseph Smith Translation calls a "great sign," must occur at some point. Regardless as to what the sign means or signifies, the sign itself must be made manifest to mankind in the skies above our heads at some point.

Now, all things written in the Book of Revelation from Revelation 4:2 and onward concern the end times. And the end times are started by Elias, he being the first sign:
And his disciples asked him, saying,
Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them,
Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(Matthew 17:10-11)
So, Elias first appears and then he initiates the end times, and upon initiating, all these signs and wonders that John saw in the Book of Revelation ensue, including the great wonder/sign that is found in Revelation 12.

Now, has Elias appeared, yet? Nope. And thus the restoration of all things has yet to occur, as well as all these signs and wonders in the Book of Revelation. What, then, are all the things we see about us? These are merely types and shadows, foreshadowing the time of Elias. In other words, we are not in the end times, but in the times of types and shadows. And as long as we remain in the times of types and shadows, we can expect that the Christians, and also the Mormons, will continue to get all the signs and wonders written about in the Book of Revelation wrong, because they are incorrectly applying these things which are to occur during the end times, to the current time of types and shadows.
The Saviour was born in secret, only a few found him in a manger, but the rest of the world thought that the sign(Star of Bethlehem) just came and went...Same with J.S. vision, for that matter.
But I do agree on other points...

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Alaris
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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by Alaris »

LDS Anarchist wrote: October 9th, 2017, 1:27 pm
friendsofthe wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:03 pm Alaris, I would have known nothing about this Rev. 12 / Sept. 23 thing if it was not for all of the discussion on this, The LDS Freedom Forum. So I have assumed that some members of the forum feel the whole thing has a certain degree of viability or credibility, I’m not one of them and I’m not alone by a long shot. I felt it was pretty much all folly from the beginning and even started a thread saying so. I’ve been on the forum for quite some time now and have seen these things come and go in the past with no apparent proof of fulfillment.
It is interesting that you say this. I found out about the so-called "Revelation 12 Sign" by checking my blog stats. Somebody had linked to one of my blog posts (The Meridian of Time) from a Facebook group. I followed the link back to the group and found they were talking about a "Revelation 12 Sign." I had no idea what they were talking about. Later I came onto this forum and found others here talking about this same sign. Finally, I decided to take a look into it by going to YouTube and seeing what the Christians were saying. Had it not been for that backtrack link, September 23rd would have come and gone and I would have had no knowledge that any "sign" had happened.

This, of course, is not how the Revelation end time signs happen. We won't "hear about" these signs in the heavens, we will just look up to the sky and see them unfolding above our heads. Nobody will need to "tell other people" about any impending signs. They will just happen right before our very eyes, without any expectation. In other words, there won't be a date to wait for. The planets, and asteroids, and moons and comets above our heads, and also other heavenly bodies that will enter into our solar system, will suddenly coalesce into the images that John saw, which to him looked like a woman and a dragon and so forth, and which to us will look like a woman and a dragon and so forth. And there will be plasma discharging and these images will take up the entire sky, looming large above us, so that nobody will need a telescope or the Stellarium program or a constellation map, and nobody will need to be at a specific location on the planet, but everyone around the entire globe will be able to look up and see this great heavenly wonder or sign, and will instantly know that this is the very thing John saw, as he recorded in his book.

There will be no need for using one's imagination, imagining a woman's form by looking at a constellation of dots, etc. We will look up and simply see what appears to be a woman clothed with the Sun, etc. And there will be sounds that we will hear, coming from the planets above us. John used the word "great" intentionally. This is going to be spectacular. But it doesn't occur during the times of types and shadows, but only during the end times, so it is still future to us. And we will see that John's descriptions were accurate and literal, so, when he says
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth
we will look up and see that the third part of the stars of heaven, which were above our heads, have now been swept by the dragon's tail and have fallen down towards the earth, to disappear below the horizon. And when we look upwards from that point on, we will see that the sky now has only the two remaining third-parts, which of course will baffle the world, for, what happened to all these stars? And so forth.

So, no, the so-called Revelation 12 Sign was not the thing John saw. Not by a long shot.
And you know this how? What is the source of your "this is how the sign will unfold?"

As Dafty said there is far more evidence that these important dates come and go and none are the wiser of what the date means. The star of bethlehem was widely visible. I'm pretty sure Ether 4 was quoted here.
Ether4:16 And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed.
Regardless of your personal interpretation, Ether 4:16 states the sign will be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. This certainly can be said of 9/23. The sign was visible in the morning and at night all over the world, and people all over the world were made aware of it ahead of time via Internet, TV, news, etc. And just because the sign is unfolded, does not mean people "see" or understand the sign as is the case with the star of bethlehem.

Edit: I almost forgot the most important part. Ether 4:16 says when the sign is unfolded in the eyes of all the people, then we will now that the time they shall be made manifest is at hand when they will be made manifest in deed. So certainly this is evidence that the signs of John's revelation precede events.

Edit edit: I should probably add this scripture as well along with mentioning a pearl I have withheld being as that the mocking and ridiculous declarations that 9/23 meant nothing certainly qualify as swine:
“He that believeth shall be blest with signs following, even as it is written. And unto you it shall be given to know the signs of the times, and the signs of the coming of the Son of Man” (Doctrine & Covenants 68:10–11);

“And it shall come to pass that he that feareth me shall be looking forth for the great day of the Lord to come, even for the signs of the coming of the Son of Man. And they shall see signs and wonders, for they shall be shown forth in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath” (Doctrine & Covenants 45:39–40).
I believed strongly in the 9/23 sign. I stated clearly in my article I wrote back in June that 9/23 may come and go and none be the wiser. So certainly LDSA's comments above about the person being caught by a lying spirit couldn't be me.

However I did have two sacred experiences on 9/23 that confirmed to me that indeed that day was sacred and special. None of the naysayers have shown any fruits of believing--see D&C 68:10-11 above. Belief is essential to knowing. (Ether 12:6 too)

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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by friendsofthe »

LDS Anarchist... You make a lot of good points in your post and I find myself in agreement with much of what you have said. I appreciate that you approach your post with calmness and reason and with not even a hint of drama…. Refreshing! You said:
Most of your blog was to make the point that the symbolism of the great wonder that John saw in the heavens bespoke of the Restoration, but what you've missed is that everything that John saw would actually happen, including the wonder or sign itself.
I’m going to say that the main point I was making so far as what John saw had to do with the apostasy, but I did also bring in the restoration in the blog as well. You also said:
Everything that comes after this verse are "things which must be hereafter." John was on the Isle of Patmos when he had this vision, and that was about 90 A.D., so everything we read from Revelation 4:2 and onward are things that would occur after 90 A.D.
So what about these verses from JST Rev. 12, do you believe that they are also speaking of things that happen after Rev. 4:2?
6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;
7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.
8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth; and his angels were cast out with him.

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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by brianj »

LDS Anarchist wrote: October 9th, 2017, 9:14 pm What John saw was a heavenly play, the skies above our heads being the stage, the planets and moons and asteroids and comets and other celestial objects being the actors. Everything he saw, then, whether "Michael" or "Michael's angels" or "the dragon" or "the dragon's angels," etc., are the objects of the great wonder or sign that he saw in heaven, or the other sign that he also saw (of the dragon.) "Heaven" here, is not the place of God's abode, but the solar system. It's a sign in the likeness of things on the earth, so it's meaning is earthly, but it literally is a celestial occurrence.

So, all the things he describes literally will occur in the skies above our heads in the future. We will look up and see what appears to be a literal red dragon, composed of whatever celestial objects make it up, and it will literally look like it has a tail. It won't literally be a red dragon with a tail, but it will look exactly like one, even though it will be an image composed of celestial objects which are discharging plasma in such a way as to present these images.

So, he saw a "war in heaven" and we will also see this sign. We will see what appears to be angels in the skies, and a lead angel (Michael), and they'll have wings, for when planets and other celestial objects are powered up, they sprout wings. To illustrate, the following scriptures are not pure symbols. They have literal representations, when these heavenly bodies are powered up:
I have to ask: What makes you think that John saw objects in space as opposed to events in a literal heaven, namely the place of our premortal life?

I don't believe that John saw a heavenly play. I believe he saw events as they really happened in heaven. I also don't believe that John's revelation and writing are purely limited to events that were in the future, at least the future from his time. I believe he saw what Nephi saw and what Jared saw, everything from the beginning to the end, and that we have highlights of those items in the Book of Revelation.

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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by BeNotDeceived »

How many of you know that Sophia was brought 'online' on 9/23/2017?

Yes that is right. September 23, 2017. Is this the 'birth' we waited for :?:


Now Sophia has more rights than women in Saudi Arabia.

Let’s hope it signified something stirring in the Celestial realm too.

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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by gardener4life »

One of the interesting signs of the times and that has a big tie in with the fall of the Nephites happening today is our refusal to accept correction. We get angry or offended at those trying to help us, both individually in families and as a people. We end up persecuting those that try to do good.

Just last night at Thanksgiving I heard a few relatives going off on people that pray when they were trying to talk about people trying to fix health problems or family problems. (So persecuting the people that pray is going to supposedly help that?)

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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Linked below (click up-arrow to view in-context) is more about the code applied in the video. The presentation was mid-October rather than on 9/23. Weird that FII uses a double I which Aiivii excemplified as the concept was introduced in a thread for the titanium contest.
BeNotDeceived wrote: November 26th, 2017, 12:19 pm Researching this has led to many interesting articles.
http://www.brunson20.com/2013/05/the-serpents-roll-in-fall.html wrote:
In addition to these two examples, there is further evidence that suggests that a serpent represented the Messiah. According to one LDS author,
In most ancient societies, letters and numbers were often used interchangeably, and each letter of an alphabet had a numerical value.[7]
"Generally, the first nine letters of the alphabet stood for numbers one through nine, the next nine for numbers ten through ninety, and so on."[8] With this formula, each word could therefore be assigned a numerical value. When two words had the same numerical value, they were considered to represent each other and could be used interchangeably as synonyms. This is significant because the Hebrew word for Messiah (mashiyakh) and the Hebrew word for serpent (nakhash) both have a numerical value of 358.[9] This helps to confirm that anciently, and especially in the Hebrew culture, the serpent was a symbol for the Messiah. As LDS scholar Jeffery Bradshaw stated, "the serpent is a frequently used representation of the Messiah and his life-giving power."[10]

http://www.brunson20.com/2013/05/adams- ... skins.html
Interesting this code is something I’ve applied for a long time, not knowing its history; the guy in the Sophia video applied it too.

My version:

R = 18
S = 19
T = 20

Which is different than described; now it’s better understood and validated. :!:

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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by shadow »

I fail to see how the eclipse across the US can be compared with the sign of Christ, a new star. Eclipses are a regular occurrence. New stars appearing are not.

Personally, I don't think the eclipse was a specific sign of anything but a general sign of wonders in heaven. It was cool because I saw it in the path of totality, but I can see one next year if I'm willing to travel. If I were to be looking for a specific sign of the times, it wouldn't be something that has been occuring on a regular basis since the the time the moon took orbit. It's as general as claiming the sunset and sunrises are signs.

What other countries have been eclipsed before? What sign was it for them? Why is the US eclipse a sign for the world but the thousands of other eclipses weren't?

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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by LdsMarco »

Revelation 12 What It REALLY Means


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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by inho »

BeNotDeceived wrote: October 9th, 2017, 1:44 am Image
Why is this crossing special?
See https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEatlas/S ... -25T-1.GIF, that maps shows many more crossings.
Image

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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by Durzan »

ummm... what? I fail to see the significance of the picture you just posted inho.

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shadow
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Re: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven…

Post by shadow »

Durzan wrote: November 29th, 2017, 5:17 pm ummm... what? I fail to see the significance of the picture you just posted inho.
I think he's proving the point that the 2017 eclipse wasn't anything special or out of the ordinary so it would be quite a stretch to claim it as a sign of the times or as the appearance of the great wonder in heaven which is prophesied.

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BeNotDeceived
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after the manner of their language

Post by BeNotDeceived »

inho wrote: November 29th, 2017, 3:55 pm
Why is this crossing special?

See https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEatlas/S ... -25T-1.GIF, that maps shows many more crossings.
Durzan wrote: November 29th, 2017, 5:17 pm ummm... what? I fail to see the significance of the picture you just posted inho.
Most eclipses have little significance, much like there are many stars, but only one Star of Betlehem.
https://www.lds.org/church/news/god-speaks-to-us-in-ways-we-can-understand-fairmormon-speaker-says?lang=eng wrote: He cited the passage in Doctrine and Covenants 1:24, “Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.”

Thus, Ash said, “God must descend to our level and speak our language in order for us to comprehend.” ...

Ash said the recognition of one’s limited ability to accurately hear God’s words is found in at least three layers: receiving the word of God, recording it, and recontextualizing it.

“Each individual or prophet will be unique in their ability to accurately hear the word of God,” he said, “the accuracy or completeness of which might depend on the person’s sphere of responsibility, worthiness, education, culture, circumstance, and expectations. ...
Hopefully those excerpts will help.

The “node” as the intersection is in the heartland of America. And America is the place of the restoration, so it follows that events within its border may prove significant.

DaveDan first noted the node location, and LDSMarko made mention in one of his videos about a eclipse in Europe, that occurred just prior to WWI. In 1776 there was an eclipse that crossed Mexico and maybe parts of the US.

More Here: Re: "I am in your midist and ye cannot see me"

Where the definition link will discuss recognition on or about 9/23; this was before my learning of these eclipses.

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Re: After the manner of their language

Post by BeNotDeceived »

From today’s email :)
http://www.ldssmile.com/2015/10/04/why-are-the-speakers-not-speaking-in-their-native-tongue/ wrote:
Why Are the Speakers Not Speaking In Their Native Tongue?

Image

According to a KUTV 2 News report: “Decisions about general conference proceedings rest with the First Presidency who have decided that all talks for this weekend’s sessions will be given in English,” Hawkins said in a statement to 2News.

Previously, speakers at conference have had the option of giving talks in their native language with a translator reading the talk for English audiences. ...
why canst I speakem zee duetch? :lol:

HINTii = In this realm a GA may have said he has whiskey. 8-)

EDIT = this is from 2014: lds-leaders-may-choose-speak-native-language-general-conference

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