A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

[dewajack]

Revelation doesn't come from emotional feelings, but from intellectual feelings.

That makes sense, but what in the heck do you mean by "intellectual feelings". Like an "aha" moment? So, you're saying whenever the scriptures relate feelings to the Spirit then it is talking about this intellectual feeling? Do you suppose some people are just more prone to express emotionally when they have the Spirit? For example, President Eyring?

I could ask you questions all day, too. But I'd rather know how you get this gift. I'm stuck in a hole and tired of my apparent inability to discern.

Look, my experience with revelation isn't going to be like that of another, because I also have the gift of discerning of spirits. For example, the first time I had a revelation, at the age of nine, I believed it, but I didn't know it was a revelation. In my nine year old words, "It was like a puzzle with all its pieces scattered around the floor had suddenly come together so that I could finally and perfectly see the picture." I got perfect understanding of the thing communicated. But I didn't know it was a revelation. Then the Lord gave me the gift of the discerning of spirits. Then afterward He gave me another revelation. This time I could discern that the whole thing was divine.

So, if I describe how it works with me, even if you have the gift of the word of knowledge, it doesn't do you any good, because what I can now notice about all these gifts comes from the use of the discerning of spirits. Without that gift, I'd be clueless to explain what goes on with the other gifts. And without that gift, you would not be able to discern the same things I discern, even if I give you a description of the process. In other words, even if I tell you the whole process, and you go and get a revelation, you still wouldn't be able to go through the same experience and discern all the nuances, unless you also had the discerning of the spirits.

But, as you asked, I'll tell you anyway.

There are five senses, right? Sight, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. When the voice of the Spirit speaks, it acts just like a normal voice. Normal voices can make things vibrate, right? And you can see a thing vibrate, right? So, when the Spirit speaks, sometimes a person with the gift of the word of knowledge will say, "I see that that is right," or "That doesn't look right to me." There is an "appearance" in their mind, in their brain, of right or wrong, when the Spirit manifests. And when voices speak and cause things to vibrate, sometimes you can hear a hum, right? The thing vibrating makes a sound, right? And so, someone who receives a revelation may say, "That sounds right to me," or, "That doesn't sound right." And when voices speak and cause things to vibrate, if you place your hand upon the vibrating thing you can feel the vibration through your hand, right? And so, someone who receives a revelation may say, "That feels right to me," or "That doesn't feel right to me." It's not an emotional feeling that is being described. It is something that is happening in the brain. Specifically, if you want me to be precise, in both the left prefontal lobe and the right prefrontal lobe. The information itself is deposited into the left prefrontal lobe and with the right prefrontal lobe the vibration is felt, or the vibration is observed or the hum of the vibration is perceived. It's not done with the eyes or ears or skin, but with the senses of the person's spirit body.

In other words, the Spirit's voice causes a resonance to occur on a human's own personal spirit body, and the voice information is deposited into that person's left prefrontal lobe, while the vibratory effects are perceived by the right prefrontal lobe.

Now, our emotions also come from the right prefrontal lobe, hence people's confusion about emotions being the voice of the Spirit. But these aren't emotional feelings I'm describing, but perceptive feelings or senses, our spirits directly perceiving the Spirit's voice.

Again, none of this is useful to you unless you have the discerning of spirits and can directly discern your own spirit vibrating at the Spirit's resonant frequency and resonant amplitude, when the Spirit speaks, like I can. This gift allows me to directly discern both my own spirit, and everyone else's spirit around me, to perceive foreign spirits acting upon them, or their thoughts and feelings, etc.

Now, tasting and smelling don't apply to the Spirit's voice. Do you taste someone's voice when he speaks, or smell his voice? No, it's just the sound you hear and the effects of that sound upon objects (the vibration and secondary humming it causes.) So, when the Spirit speaks, you don't taste anything or smell anything, and anyone who says he does is pulling your leg.

When the scriptures talk of feeling the Spirit, such as being past feeling, they are not speaking of emotional feeling, but of perceptive feeling. If your skin is numb, you can't feel anything. The skin is "past feeling." The blindness spoken of in the scriptures is not a physical blindness, but a spiritual blindness (blindness of mind), in which you cannot use your brain to spiritually perceive the vibration caused by the voice of the Spirit. Hardness of heart is yet another spiritual condition, not a physical condition, in which you cannot use your brain to spiritually feel the vibration caused by the voice of the Spirit. Those whose ears are closed are spiritually deaf, in which they cannot use their brains to spiritually hear the vibratory hum caused by the voice of the Spirit. All such people are past feeling, that is, their spiritual perceptions have gone dark (sight), deaf (hearing) and numb (tactile sensations.) It doesn't mean that they are incapable of feeling emotions.

The "fruit of the Spirit" spoken of in the scriptures, which is used by missionaries to "prove" that investigators are feeling the Spirit, are secondary effects of the voice.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23)

So, when a person receives the Spirit, the Spirit will begin to make changes to that person, so that they become more loving, begin to experience joy, feel at peace, become longsuffering, become gentle, become good, increase in faith, meekness and temperance. Merely being loving, longsuffering, gentle and so forth, doesn't mean that the Spirit is upon you. Some of the most wicked people on earth still love their children and treat them with kindness and gentleness, etc., and yet they don't have the Spirit.

I honestly don't know why people choke up and sob when expressing gospel truth. I certainly don't do it. To me it appears to be a show, an act. The Lord doesn't care that you are crying when speaking of the gospel. We are to cry to the Lord. We are to wet our pillows in our prayers to Him, not to cry and sob towards others. We are to mourn for the wicked and lost and dead, but there is no requirement that we put up such a display when teaching or preaching the gospel. However, if one's desire is strong, then emotions can well up towards others. But welled-up emotions doesn't indicate the Spirit is manifesting. As a missionary I preached my companions and the local priests and reverends and pastors under the table, without shedding a tear. But I will cry an ocean of tears to my God in prayer. So, there are times when the Spirit causes one to cry, and those moments are appropriate, but there are moments when it's inappropriate to cry, when it gets in the way, or when one is doing it out of habit or as an act. In those times, it detracts from the message. It then becomes a substitute for the Spirit, a fake "Spirit," a means to say to others, "Look how righteous I am! See how much sobbing I do?"

Me personally, I don't want to see someone teach me a gospel principle with crying, or preach me a sermon through tears. I am listening to feast upon the gospel, not to watch your crying act. I don't like being one of the audience of your one-man show. For example, I'm sure Elder Hales was a great, great man, but he was unwatchable to me. No matter his topic, he got choked up about it, and it turned me completely off. I turn off the cryers. I'll read their messages later, without the tears, thank you very much.

As for how to obtain this or other gifts, you just have to ask God for it until you get it. I'm not sure what else I can say about it.

Hopefully this guy won't turn you completely off,

21 And when he had said these words, he wept, and the multitude bare record of it, and he took their little children, one by one, and blessed them, and prayed unto the Father for them.

22 And when he had done this he wept again;

41 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard wept, and said unto the servant: What could I have done more for my vineyard?

[Finrock]

“Tell the brethren to be humble and faithful and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord, that it will lead them aright. Be careful and not turn away the still, small voice; it will teach them what to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their heart open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits—it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife and all evil from their hearts, and their whole desire will be to do good” (quoted in Juvenile Instructor, 19 July 1873, 114).

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Revelation doesn't come from emotional feelings, but from intellectual feelings.

That makes sense, but what in the heck do you mean by "intellectual feelings". Like an "aha" moment? So, you're saying whenever the scriptures relate feelings to the Spirit then it is talking about this intellectual feeling? Do you suppose some people are just more prone to express emotionally when they have the Spirit? For example, President Eyring?

I could ask you questions all day, too. But I'd rather know how you get this gift. I'm stuck in a hole and tired of my apparent inability to discern.

Look, my experience with revelation isn't going to be like that of another, because I also have the gift of discerning of spirits. For example, the first time I had a revelation, at the age of nine, I believed it, but I didn't know it was a revelation. In my nine year old words, "It was like a puzzle with all its pieces scattered around the floor had suddenly come together so that I could finally and perfectly see the picture." I got perfect understanding of the thing communicated. But I didn't know it was a revelation. Then the Lord gave me the gift of the discerning of spirits. Then afterward He gave me another revelation. This time I could discern that the whole thing was divine.

So, if I describe how it works with me, even if you have the gift of the word of knowledge, it doesn't do you any good, because what I can now notice about all these gifts comes from the use of the discerning of spirits. Without that gift, I'd be clueless to explain what goes on with the other gifts. And without that gift, you would not be able to discern the same things I discern, even if I give you a description of the process. In other words, even if I tell you the whole process, and you go and get a revelation, you still wouldn't be able to go through the same experience and discern all the nuances, unless you also had the discerning of the spirits.

But, as you asked, I'll tell you anyway.

There are five senses, right? Sight, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. When the voice of the Spirit speaks, it acts just like a normal voice. Normal voices can make things vibrate, right? And you can see a thing vibrate, right? So, when the Spirit speaks, sometimes a person with the gift of the word of knowledge will say, "I see that that is right," or "That doesn't look right to me." There is an "appearance" in their mind, in their brain, of right or wrong, when the Spirit manifests. And when voices speak and cause things to vibrate, sometimes you can hear a hum, right? The thing vibrating makes a sound, right? And so, someone who receives a revelation may say, "That sounds right to me," or, "That doesn't sound right." And when voices speak and cause things to vibrate, if you place your hand upon the vibrating thing you can feel the vibration through your hand, right? And so, someone who receives a revelation may say, "That feels right to me," or "That doesn't feel right to me." It's not an emotional feeling that is being described. It is something that is happening in the brain. Specifically, if you want me to be precise, in both the left prefontal lobe and the right prefrontal lobe. The information itself is deposited into the left prefrontal lobe and with the right prefrontal lobe the vibration is felt, or the vibration is observed or the hum of the vibration is perceived. It's not done with the eyes or ears or skin, but with the senses of the person's spirit body.

In other words, the Spirit's voice causes a resonance to occur on a human's own personal spirit body, and the voice information is deposited into that person's left prefrontal lobe, while the vibratory effects are perceived by the right prefrontal lobe.

Now, our emotions also come from the right prefrontal lobe, hence people's confusion about emotions being the voice of the Spirit. But these aren't emotional feelings I'm describing, but perceptive feelings or senses, our spirits directly perceiving the Spirit's voice.

Again, none of this is useful to you unless you have the discerning of spirits and can directly discern your own spirit vibrating at the Spirit's resonant frequency and resonant amplitude, when the Spirit speaks, like I can. This gift allows me to directly discern both my own spirit, and everyone else's spirit around me, to perceive foreign spirits acting upon them, or their thoughts and feelings, etc.

Now, tasting and smelling don't apply to the Spirit's voice. Do you taste someone's voice when he speaks, or smell his voice? No, it's just the sound you hear and the effects of that sound upon objects (the vibration and secondary humming it causes.) So, when the Spirit speaks, you don't taste anything or smell anything, and anyone who says he does is pulling your leg.

When the scriptures talk of feeling the Spirit, such as being past feeling, they are not speaking of emotional feeling, but of perceptive feeling. If your skin is numb, you can't feel anything. The skin is "past feeling." The blindness spoken of in the scriptures is not a physical blindness, but a spiritual blindness (blindness of mind), in which you cannot use your brain to spiritually perceive the vibration caused by the voice of the Spirit. Hardness of heart is yet another spiritual condition, not a physical condition, in which you cannot use your brain to spiritually feel the vibration caused by the voice of the Spirit. Those whose ears are closed are spiritually deaf, in which they cannot use their brains to spiritually hear the vibratory hum caused by the voice of the Spirit. All such people are past feeling, that is, their spiritual perceptions have gone dark (sight), deaf (hearing) and numb (tactile sensations.) It doesn't mean that they are incapable of feeling emotions.

The "fruit of the Spirit" spoken of in the scriptures, which is used by missionaries to "prove" that investigators are feeling the Spirit, are secondary effects of the voice.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23)

So, when a person receives the Spirit, the Spirit will begin to make changes to that person, so that they become more loving, begin to experience joy, feel at peace, become longsuffering, become gentle, become good, increase in faith, meekness and temperance. Merely being loving, longsuffering, gentle and so forth, doesn't mean that the Spirit is upon you. Some of the most wicked people on earth still love their children and treat them with kindness and gentleness, etc., and yet they don't have the Spirit.

I honestly don't know why people choke up and sob when expressing gospel truth. I certainly don't do it. To me it appears to be a show, an act. The Lord doesn't care that you are crying when speaking of the gospel. We are to cry to the Lord. We are to wet our pillows in our prayers to Him, not to cry and sob towards others. We are to mourn for the wicked and lost and dead, but there is no requirement that we put up such a display when teaching or preaching the gospel. However, if one's desire is strong, then emotions can well up towards others. But welled-up emotions doesn't indicate the Spirit is manifesting. As a missionary I preached my companions and the local priests and reverends and pastors under the table, without shedding a tear. But I will cry an ocean of tears to my God in prayer. So, there are times when the Spirit causes one to cry, and those moments are appropriate, but there are moments when it's inappropriate to cry, when it gets in the way, or when one is doing it out of habit or as an act. In those times, it detracts from the message. It then becomes a substitute for the Spirit, a fake "Spirit," a means to say to others, "Look how righteous I am! See how much sobbing I do?"

Me personally, I don't want to see someone teach me a gospel principle with crying, or preach me a sermon through tears. I am listening to feast upon the gospel, not to watch your crying act. I don't like being one of the audience of your one-man show. For example, I'm sure Elder Hales was a great, great man, but he was unwatchable to me. No matter his topic, he got choked up about it, and it turned me completely off. I turn off the cryers. I'll read their messages later, without the tears, thank you very much.

As for how to obtain this or other gifts, you just have to ask God for it until you get it. I'm not sure what else I can say about it.

Hopefully this guy won't turn you completely off,

21 And when he had said these words, he wept, and the multitude bare record of it, and he took their little children, one by one, and blessed them, and prayed unto the Father for them.

22 And when he had done this he wept again;

41 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard wept, and said unto the servant: What could I have done more for my vineyard?

President Howard W. Hunter offered this counsel: “Let me offer a word of caution. … I think if we are not careful … , we may begin to try to counterfeit the true influence of the Spirit of the Lord by unworthy and manipulative means. I get concerned when it appears that strong emotion or free-flowing tears are equated with the presence of the Spirit. Certainly the Spirit of the Lord can bring strong emotional feelings, including tears, but that outward manifestation ought not to be confused with the presence of the Spirit itself” (The Teachings of Howard W. Hunter, 184). The Spirit of the Lord always edifies.

-Finrock

[drtanner]

Did the Lord tell him to return to Jerusalem? Why not? Why was it Lehi?

Why did you ignore Nephi talking with the Lord? In Jerusalem, was Lehi there to tell Nephi what to do?

Would Nephi be in Jerusalem without Lehi's council?

Let me try to help you out. There is some hard-headedness, some walking in darkness at noon day.

President Monson asked us to read the Book of Mormon. Why? Were you not reading it? Are we not understanding what we need to understand?

President Nelson said to handle the future, we need to be instructed by the Lord himself. What does that mean?

Now, let's look at the Nephi story. Interesting that we have this story because the Lehi story was lost by Martin Harris...

Who told Lehi to go into the desert? Was it Jeremiah? No, it was the Lord. Why was Lehi talking with the Lord? What did Lehi do to talk with the Lord?

As the family traveled 3 days into the wilderness, what were they feeling? We know that Laman, Lemuel and Sariah were not happy at all. I don't think Nephi was happy either, but he loved his father, and he wanted similar experiences. How do we know that?

Nephi, probably out hunting, cried unto God. This is mighty prayer. How do you do mighty prayer? See President Nelson's talk. Nephi's heart was softened. What????? His heart wasn't soft enough. How did that happen???? It is a gift from God. How does this work???? It's called the mighty change, also called the baptism by fire. Why did this happen??? Because Nephi asked!

If you pay attention, you also see that Nephi talked with the Lord. Is that not being instructed by the Lord Himself???

When Lehi said to Nephi that the boys needed to go back to Jerusalem, Nephi had been prepared by the Lord Himself!!! Without being prepared, the journey would have been a disaster.

So, do you want to stay in the Telestial kingdom and play around in the mud, or do you want to take it up a level?

Thank you for your concern I believe you are sincere in your desire to help, maybe you are mis-understanding what I am saying. I think the assumption wires may have gotten crossed somewhere. What is it you feel I'm being hard headed / walking in darkness about and Id be happy to clarify.

[Arenera]

Why did you ignore Nephi talking with the Lord? In Jerusalem, was Lehi there to tell Nephi what to do?

Would Nephi be in Jerusalem without Lehi's council?

Let me try to help you out. There is some hard-headedness, some walking in darkness at noon day.

President Monson asked us to read the Book of Mormon. Why? Were you not reading it? Are we not understanding what we need to understand?

President Nelson said to handle the future, we need to be instructed by the Lord himself. What does that mean?

Now, let's look at the Nephi story. Interesting that we have this story because the Lehi story was lost by Martin Harris...

Who told Lehi to go into the desert? Was it Jeremiah? No, it was the Lord. Why was Lehi talking with the Lord? What did Lehi do to talk with the Lord?

As the family traveled 3 days into the wilderness, what were they feeling? We know that Laman, Lemuel and Sariah were not happy at all. I don't think Nephi was happy either, but he loved his father, and he wanted similar experiences. How do we know that?

Nephi, probably out hunting, cried unto God. This is mighty prayer. How do you do mighty prayer? See President Nelson's talk. Nephi's heart was softened. What????? His heart wasn't soft enough. How did that happen???? It is a gift from God. How does this work???? It's called the mighty change, also called the baptism by fire. Why did this happen??? Because Nephi asked!

If you pay attention, you also see that Nephi talked with the Lord. Is that not being instructed by the Lord Himself???

When Lehi said to Nephi that the boys needed to go back to Jerusalem, Nephi had been prepared by the Lord Himself!!! Without being prepared, the journey would have been a disaster.

So, do you want to stay in the Telestial kingdom and play around in the mud, or do you want to take it up a level?

Thank you for your concern I believe you are sincere in your desire to help, maybe you are mis-understanding what I am saying. I think the assumption wires may have gotten crossed somewhere. What is it you feel I'm being hard headed / walking in darkness about and Id be happy to clarify.

I asked many questions, I was plain as plain can be. And you respond with condescension.

[drtanner]

Would Nephi be in Jerusalem without Lehi's council?

Let me try to help you out. There is some hard-headedness, some walking in darkness at noon day.

President Monson asked us to read the Book of Mormon. Why? Were you not reading it? Are we not understanding what we need to understand?

President Nelson said to handle the future, we need to be instructed by the Lord himself. What does that mean?

Now, let's look at the Nephi story. Interesting that we have this story because the Lehi story was lost by Martin Harris...

Who told Lehi to go into the desert? Was it Jeremiah? No, it was the Lord. Why was Lehi talking with the Lord? What did Lehi do to talk with the Lord?

As the family traveled 3 days into the wilderness, what were they feeling? We know that Laman, Lemuel and Sariah were not happy at all. I don't think Nephi was happy either, but he loved his father, and he wanted similar experiences. How do we know that?

Nephi, probably out hunting, cried unto God. This is mighty prayer. How do you do mighty prayer? See President Nelson's talk. Nephi's heart was softened. What????? His heart wasn't soft enough. How did that happen???? It is a gift from God. How does this work???? It's called the mighty change, also called the baptism by fire. Why did this happen??? Because Nephi asked!

If you pay attention, you also see that Nephi talked with the Lord. Is that not being instructed by the Lord Himself???

When Lehi said to Nephi that the boys needed to go back to Jerusalem, Nephi had been prepared by the Lord Himself!!! Without being prepared, the journey would have been a disaster.

So, do you want to stay in the Telestial kingdom and play around in the mud, or do you want to take it up a level?

Thank you for your concern I believe you are sincere in your desire to help, maybe you are mis-understanding what I am saying. I think the assumption wires may have gotten crossed somewhere. What is it you feel I'm being hard headed / walking in darkness about and Id be happy to clarify.

I asked many questions, I was plain as plain can be. And you respond with condescension.

No condescension intended

But would love to know If I'm wallowing in the Telestial mud, being hard headed and walking in darkness what are you assuming I believe that is false?

[ndjili]

Biblically God set up a pattern of operations (Deuteronomy 18) of how He will talk to His people.

We are also shown a pattern of God calling Prophets when things are bad or about to get bad. Our time is no different.

God works in the law of witnesses. God's witnesses are divinely called. With His first witness being scripture. The second is the Prophets. Third is the Holy Ghost.
In fact, when you read the Book of Mormon, the promise about spiritual confirmation does not come at the beginning of the book, it comes at the end. This is the pattern. Even established in Nephi. First we read/study the scriptures and pray for confirmation of the truth contained. First we listen to the words of the Prophet and then pray for confirmation of the truth contained.
We are being shown that we need to bring our understanding and will to the things God instructs from the things He has established.

Sadly, too many think they need an experiential gospel, rather than a doctrinal gospel. They can't have faith unless they see. Seeing is believing.

I find it interesting that so many people anymore bring up Matthew 24. ALL the signs but one are constantly talked about, but the one that is missing is not only the most important, it's also the most mentioned of all latter-days signs in scripture. The sign is spiritual deception.
In fact, in the Matthew 24 version of the Olivet discourse, all other signs are only mentioned 1 time. Spiritual deception is mentioned 4 times. And not only that, it' the first 2 things Jesus Christ warns about.
In the JS translation of the Olivet Discourse, a few other signs are talked about 2 times. Spiritual deception is mentioned 6 times.

I hear people accuse me of putting God into a box. They say God can do whatever God wants. But God is the one who established His way and His patterns, not for God's benefit, but for ours. He knew spiritual deception would be the worst it's ever been in the history of the world at this time. So He gave us not one book of scripture, but 4. He gave us living Prophets. He gave us the holy Ghost. He gave us multiple witnesses to help us continue to eat the fruit of the tree, not just taste and then wander away down forbidden paths.

Anti doesn't just mean against in scripture. It also means another. Anti-Christ isn't just against Christ. It is another Christ. A false Christ. One who strays from God's pattern of sound doctrine and moves to a more experiential gospel.

The experiential people can have their Christ. I want nothing to do with him.

[Arenera]

Biblically God set up a pattern of operations (Deuteronomy 18) of how He will talk to His people.

We are also shown a pattern of God calling Prophets when things are bad or about to get bad. Our time is no different.

God works in the law of witnesses. God's witnesses are divinely called. With His first witness being scripture. The second is the Prophets. Third is the Holy Ghost.
In fact, when you read the Book of Mormon, the promise about spiritual confirmation does not come at the beginning of the book, it comes at the end. This is the pattern. Even established in Nephi. First we read/study the scriptures and pray for confirmation of the truth contained. First we listen to the words of the Prophet and then pray for confirmation of the truth contained.
We are being shown that we need to bring our understanding and will to the things God instructs from the things He has established.

Sadly, too many think they need an experiential gospel, rather than a doctrinal gospel. They can't have faith unless they see. Seeing is believing.

I find it interesting that so many people anymore bring up Matthew 24. ALL the signs but one are constantly talked about, but the one that is missing is not only the most important, it's also the most mentioned of all latter-days signs in scripture. The sign is spiritual deception.
In fact, in the Matthew 24 version of the Olivet discourse, all other signs are only mentioned 1 time. Spiritual deception is mentioned 4 times. And not only that, it' the first 2 things Jesus Christ warns about.
In the JS translation of the Olivet Discourse, a few other signs are talked about 2 times. Spiritual deception is mentioned 6 times.

I hear people accuse me of putting God into a box. They say God can do whatever God wants. But God is the one who established His way and His patterns, not for God's benefit, but for ours. He knew spiritual deception would be the worst it's ever been in the history of the world at this time. So He gave us not one book of scripture, but 4. He gave us living Prophets. He gave us the holy Ghost. He gave us multiple witnesses to help us continue to eat the fruit of the tree, not just taste and then wander away down forbidden paths.

Anti doesn't just mean against in scripture. It also means another. Anti-Christ isn't just against Christ. It is another Christ. A false Christ. One who strays from God's pattern of sound doctrine and moves to a more experiential gospel.

The experiential people can have their Christ. I want nothing to do with him.

Well.......you are not consistent with the Book of Mormon, or President Nelson.

[silk]

I appreciate the talk that was cited earlier in the thread. I was reading in Alma today, and stumbled upon the same pattern in Ammon's teaching to King Lamoni (Alma 18). If I hadn't read this thread, I probably wouldn't have even noticed, so thank you. I thought it was interesting that it was used as a teaching method in the scriptures, and not just as a way to avoid being deceived.

From the talk:
1. What do the standard works have to say about it?

Alma 18:36 Now when Ammon had said these words, he began at the creation of the world, and also the creation of Adam, and told him all the things concerning the fall of man, and rehearsed and laid before him the records and the holy scriptures of the people, which had been spoken by the prophets, even down to the time that their father, Lehi, left Jerusalem.

2. The second guide is: what do the latter-day Presidents of the Church have to say on the subject—particularly the living President?
From Alma 18:38:

...and he expounded unto them all the records and scriptures from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem down to the present time.

3. The third and final test is the Holy Ghost—the test of the Spirit. By that Spirit we ". . . may know the truth of all things"
From Alma 19 (after the King awakens):

Now, when he had said these words, his heart was swollen within him, and he sunk again with joy; and the queen also sunk down, being overpowered by the Spirit.

[Michelle]

Biblically God set up a pattern of operations (Deuteronomy 18) of how He will talk to His people.

We are also shown a pattern of God calling Prophets when things are bad or about to get bad. Our time is no different.

God works in the law of witnesses. God's witnesses are divinely called. With His first witness being scripture. The second is the Prophets. Third is the Holy Ghost.
In fact, when you read the Book of Mormon, the promise about spiritual confirmation does not come at the beginning of the book, it comes at the end. This is the pattern. Even established in Nephi. First we read/study the scriptures and pray for confirmation of the truth contained. First we listen to the words of the Prophet and then pray for confirmation of the truth contained.
We are being shown that we need to bring our understanding and will to the things God instructs from the things He has established.

Sadly, too many think they need an experiential gospel, rather than a doctrinal gospel. They can't have faith unless they see. Seeing is believing.

I find it interesting that so many people anymore bring up Matthew 24. ALL the signs but one are constantly talked about, but the one that is missing is not only the most important, it's also the most mentioned of all latter-days signs in scripture. The sign is spiritual deception.
In fact, in the Matthew 24 version of the Olivet discourse, all other signs are only mentioned 1 time. Spiritual deception is mentioned 4 times. And not only that, it' the first 2 things Jesus Christ warns about.
In the JS translation of the Olivet Discourse, a few other signs are talked about 2 times. Spiritual deception is mentioned 6 times.

I hear people accuse me of putting God into a box. They say God can do whatever God wants. But God is the one who established His way and His patterns, not for God's benefit, but for ours. He knew spiritual deception would be the worst it's ever been in the history of the world at this time. So He gave us not one book of scripture, but 4. He gave us living Prophets. He gave us the holy Ghost. He gave us multiple witnesses to help us continue to eat the fruit of the tree, not just taste and then wander away down forbidden paths.

Anti doesn't just mean against in scripture. It also means another. Anti-Christ isn't just against Christ. It is another Christ. A false Christ. One who strays from God's pattern of sound doctrine and moves to a more experiential gospel.

The experiential people can have their Christ. I want nothing to do with him.

Thank you for this post. I agree. There are some on this board who seeing, see not and hearing, hear not. I have tried to help Arenera more than once, but she always seems to stay stuck where she is.

I appreciated your description of "spiritual deception." I see the same thing. Your statement about "wandering away down forbidden paths" reminded me of a thought I had the other day. Those who wander off the path Nephi and Lehi saw that led to the Tree of Life, are not in the great and spacious building, they are on the same path as those headed to the Tree when they wander and are lost. I thought that it was a good representation of those who are in the true church, on the path, and then spiritually deceived to wander in a "strange path." Holding fast to the Iron Rod (The Word of God) firmly is the only safety. The Word of God being as shared previously: scriptures, living prophets and the Holy Ghost. None deny the other because they are all from the same source, they are one voice.

Thanks again.

[Finrock]

God's voice is Spirit. The iron rod is the Holy Ghost. The Spirit speaks the words of Christ.

No man speaks for God unless they have the Spirit. No words are scripture unless they came from the Holy Ghost. No person is a prophet unless they have the Spirit.

This doctrine of denying the Holy Ghost comes from trusting in titles and positions, dogmas and creeds.

The Church of Jesus Christ is not a cult which is the result of denying the Holy Ghost.

-Finrock

[Michelle]

Don’t you think it should be in this order?

The Holy Ghost - the test of the Spirit.
What do the standard works say about it?
What do the latter-day Presidents have to say on the subject?

I do not, because we are to find truth "even by study and also by faith." If you haven't studied and tried to find an answer, what do you take to the Lord to ask for confirmation or rejection by the Spirit?

Doctrine and Covenants 88:118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.

Doctrine and Covenants 9:7-9
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

I study the scriptures and words of living prophets daily so that I will be prepared to be led by the Spirit when a question arises. If I don't have an answer, I go back and study more until the Spirit confirms the correct answer. When my husband and I have to make a big decision we "own the idea": picking one option or the other after study and prayer, and then waiting to see if the Spirit confirms the decision. If we don't get confirmation, we try again. This has always resulted in us both receiving the same answer.

Correct things in the wrong order can lead to deception. Hence President Benson outlined the correct order.

Also, I find it curious when people bring up Nephi and Laban as a lesson on solely relying on the Holy Ghost, and yet no one brings up the whole purpose of his task. To get the brass plates. Why? Because "It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

The Word and study of the Word is imperative for a people's spiritual survival. The righteous among Lehi's family had the Holy Ghost, but that alone would not be enough.

What do we say to an investigator? Read these words from our prophet? No, we say:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Let's review this example:
Denver Snuffer writes a book, The Second Comforter:: Conversing with the Lord Through the Veil, in June of 2006. A friend of yours says, "You've got to read this book, it's great!"

So you say, "First, I will check the standard works." Well, Lehi saw Christ, Nephi saw Christ, Jacob saw Christ, Isaiah saw Christ, Moroni saw Christ. Check for the standard works.

Now you say, "What does President Hinckley say about Denver Snuffer?" Well, he doesn't say anything. You check your books and find out that Bruce R. McConkie says we should seek the face of the Lord. Check on the prophets.

Now, do you ask the Holy Ghost?

I can tell you exactly what did happen. Not with Denver Snuffer's book, but with "Visions of Glory."

Many told me I "had to read it." The Spirit constrained me. I was not to read the book. I went looking among the scriptures and words of the prophets. I was led to many scriptures that spoke of false prophets and looking to God for prophecy. I was led to a talk by Ezra Taft Benson, among others, that was quite direct:"

"I speak to you on this subject, for I feel it is needed because of rumors, writings, and tape recordings that have recently circulated among the Saints and that have created among some of our Church members a feeling of uncertainty. It calls to mind the counsel given by President Harold B. Lee:

There are among us many loose writings predicting the calamities which are about to overtake us. Some of these have been publicized as though they were necessary to wake up the world to the horrors about to overtake us. Many of these are from sources upon which there cannot be unquestioned reliance.

Are you . . . aware of the fact that we need no such publications to be forewarned, if we were only conversant with what the scriptures have already spoken to us in plainness? [“Admonitions for the Priesthood of God,” Ensign, January 1973, p. 106]

That is precisely the way the Brethren feel today. So, today, I shall quote liberally from the words of the Lord to our dispensation in order that you will have, from the Lord himself, guidance on future prophecy."

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/ezra-taf ... -day-lord/

As you can see, it contains the witness of both Ezra Taft Benson and Harold B. Lee. Two prophets, two witnesses.

Then mother-in-law actually gave me a copy. Talk about social pressure! But I knew what the Lord had said. I counseled with my husband and prayed. I felt by the power of the Holy Ghost to "Start reading the book. Stop when I tell you. Go back and tell her what I said. Then give her back the book."

I was taught ways in which the book did not fit the pattern the Lord had set. I don't know if I can remember them all now, but I know I didn't get past the introduction and first few pages of the first chapter before I was told to stop. Some items: The identity of the individual "Spencer" was secret. I was reminded by the Spirit that "we do not wear masks." The phrase comes from the old Handbook (it may be in the new one as well, I don't know) but the explanation was that God expects us to bare witness, not anonymously. It was pointed out that he doesn't identify the person in high church leadership who told him to share this, again, no identity=no witness. It was pointed out that during the supposed "angelic visit" the angel didn't call him by name. I was led to a passage in the History of the Church where Joseph Smith related a visit by one of Satan's messengers who appeared as an angel of light and he demonstrated that the "angel" did not follow the pattern God had set, in part because he contradicted a true revelation and in part because his appearance didn't fit the pattern God had set for an angel from God. Also Doctrine and Covenants 50 where it speaks of the many false spirits abroad and how to identify them. I was told "This is not from me." I was then directed to go and share these things with her when I returned the book. I was also led to say that unless we had read all the scriptures and words true prophets had written on the subject, we didn't have any reason to go read less authoritative books on the subject.

As you can see, all three witnesses were present: the scriptures, the modern prophets, the Holy Ghost. Each confirmed the words of the other. None contradicted each other. Only the false work itself failed to pass the tests.

This is my testimony.

[Michelle]

God's voice is Spirit. The iron rod is the Holy Ghost. The Spirit speaks the words of Christ.

No man speaks for God unless they have the Spirit. No words are scripture unless they came from the Holy Ghost. No person is a prophet unless they have the Spirit.

This doctrine of denying the Holy Ghost comes from trusting in titles and positions, dogmas and creeds.

The Church of Jesus Christ is not a cult which is the result of denying the Holy Ghost.

-Finrock

None deny the power of the Holy Ghost. I simply deny that the Holy Ghost will contradict the scriptures and living prophets. They are all one voice: the voice of God. God is a God of order, not of confusion. As pointed out by another poster, when we think we see a contradiction, we simply need to learn more. The answers are there, but they require study as well as faith. It is by 2 or 3 witness, not just one, that our faith is confirmed. The Holy Ghost alone is not enough. Anymore than just the scriptures or just the prophet. We need at least 2, but often 3 for understanding.

I can't remember if it was on this thread or another where the revelation about all worthy males receiving the priesthood was shared. Basically, even the prophet did not unilaterally decide it was time or just say: "The Holy Ghost said so." He counseled with the 12 Apostles, studies and prayed.

Just this last General Conference Elder Oaks shared the process for writing and presenting The Family: A Proclamation to the World. The Prophets read scriptures, the prophets read the words of past prophets, the prophets ask the Holy Ghost.

I have no illusions that I have a more direct path to truth than the example they have set.

One note of caution: I see among some of the arguments for suggesting the Holy Ghost can stand alone or that proper authority is not needed to receive all the powers of God, the deception Satan used in the pre-existence, with Noah's son, and at the Tower of Babel. Specifically, the deception is that one is able to circumvent God's plan in some manner. Satan wanted to lift his throne above God's, Noah's son wanted to steal the priesthood by stealing the Holy Garment, and those at the Tower of Babel would have destroyed mankind in their quest to become like God.

There is a path and a pattern. This path and pattern is set by God. We cannot go around it, because he set the rules for it. He does not break the rules and create exceptions for even the most valiant (think of Christ getting baptized.) We can walk the path as he has outlined, or we can wander in strange paths and join the many others who sought their own will, not God's in getting to heaven, and have been lost.

[Arenera]

There are some on this board who seeing, see not and hearing, hear not. I have tried to help Arenera more than once, but she always seems to stay stuck where she is.

Who is stuck? We show you scriptures and you choose to ignore them. Who can’t see?

But we know you don’t like preppers, calamatores, dooms dayers and Visions of Glory. Julie Rowe?

[Michelle]

But we know you don’t like preppers, calamatores, dooms dayers and Visions of Glory. Julie Rowe?

That is actually a funny accusation. None who know me would deny I am a prepper or that I am unaware of the calamities that are beginning to be poured out without measure. The prophesies of the last days are in my thoughts and I speak about them constantly. But only the real prophesies by prophets and scriptures and the Holy Ghost. I simply don't put those in the same category as Visions of Glory or Julie Rowe and other false prophets.

I have plenty of posts on LDSFF that make that clear.

But all my beliefs and actions in these regards fit within the bounds the Lord has set and revealed by the prophets and scriptures. They come from a study of history, demographics, politics, and economics with a heart turned to those authoritative sources I have mentioned.

Let me share one insight from history: In William Bradford's "History of Plimoth Plantation" (not a typo) he speak right at the start the ways that Satan has sought to overthrow the Saints throughout history.

1. By stirring up the heathen to persecute and torture the Saints.
And when that fails and people join the Saints anyway,
2. By planting heresies among the Saints and getting them to contend with each other, until they persecute and torture each other worse than the heathen.

One of the ways he indicates this is manifest is by adding to the simple pure doctrine of Christ until a man soul is too burdened to be able to live the gospel.

This pattern is found in the scriptures and I fear we are getting a double dose right now in history. Both the heathen and the Saints contending with each other until there are very few pure in heart seeking to know the true doctrine of Christ.

[Zathura]

God's voice is Spirit. The iron rod is the Holy Ghost. The Spirit speaks the words of Christ.

No man speaks for God unless they have the Spirit. No words are scripture unless they came from the Holy Ghost. No person is a prophet unless they have the Spirit.

This doctrine of denying the Holy Ghost comes from trusting in titles and positions, dogmas and creeds.

The Church of Jesus Christ is not a cult which is the result of denying the Holy Ghost.

-Finrock

None deny the power of the Holy Ghost. I simply deny that the Holy Ghost will contradict the scriptures and living prophets. They are all one voice: the voice of God. God is a God of order, not of confusion. As pointed out by another poster, when we think we see a contradiction, we simply need to learn more. The answers are there, but they require study as well as faith. It is by 2 or 3 witness, not just one, that our faith is confirmed. The Holy Ghost alone is not enough. Anymore than just the scriptures or just the prophet. We need at least 2, but often 3 for understanding.

I can't remember if it was on this thread or another where the revelation about all worthy males receiving the priesthood was shared. Basically, even the prophet did not unilaterally decide it was time or just say: "The Holy Ghost said so." He counseled with the 12 Apostles, studies and prayed.

Just this last General Conference Elder Oaks shared the process for writing and presenting The Family: A Proclamation to the World. The Prophets read scriptures, the prophets read the words of past prophets, the prophets ask the Holy Ghost.

I have no illusions that I have a more direct path to truth than the example they have set.

One note of caution: I see among some of the arguments for suggesting the Holy Ghost can stand alone or that proper authority is not needed to receive all the powers of God, the deception Satan used in the pre-existence, with Noah's son, and at the Tower of Babel. Specifically, the deception is that one is able to circumvent God's plan in some manner. Satan wanted to lift his throne above God's, Noah's son wanted to steal the priesthood by stealing the Holy Garment, and those at the Tower of Babel would have destroyed mankind in their quest to become like God.

There is a path and a pattern. This path and pattern is set by God. We cannot go around it, because he set the rules for it. He does not break the rules and create exceptions for even the most valiant (think of Christ getting baptized.) We can walk the path as he has outlined, or we can wander in strange paths and join the many others who sought their own will, not God's in getting to heaven, and have been lost.

The Spirit won't contradict living prophets... As long as what they said was by the power of the holy Ghost. It it wasnt, then the Spirit can contradict them and it would be foolish to ignore the Spirit in such a case. Much of what they have said over the past decades is nothing but their well intentioned beliefs and opinions and they themselves have told us that much of what they say is their well intentioned opinion.

You'll know by the Spirit if something is spoken by the power or the Holy Ghost.

[Finrock]

Don’t you think it should be in this order?

The Holy Ghost - the test of the Spirit.
What do the standard works say about it?
What do the latter-day Presidents have to say on the subject?

I do not, because we are to find truth "even by study and also by faith." If you haven't studied and tried to find an answer, what do you take to the Lord to ask for confirmation or rejection by the Spirit?

Doctrine and Covenants 88:118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.

Doctrine and Covenants 9:7-9
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

I study the scriptures and words of living prophets daily so that I will be prepared to be led by the Spirit when a question arises. If I don't have an answer, I go back and study more until the Spirit confirms the correct answer. When my husband and I have to make a big decision we "own the idea": picking one option or the other after study and prayer, and then waiting to see if the Spirit confirms the decision. If we don't get confirmation, we try again. This has always resulted in us both receiving the same answer.

Correct things in the wrong order can lead to deception. Hence President Benson outlined the correct order.

Also, I find it curious when people bring up Nephi and Laban as a lesson on solely relying on the Holy Ghost, and yet no one brings up the whole purpose of his task. To get the brass plates. Why? Because "It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

The Word and study of the Word is imperative for a people's spiritual survival. The righteous among Lehi's family had the Holy Ghost, but that alone would not be enough.

What do we say to an investigator? Read these words from our prophet? No, we say:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Let's review this example:
Denver Snuffer writes a book, The Second Comforter:: Conversing with the Lord Through the Veil, in June of 2006. A friend of yours says, "You've got to read this book, it's great!"

So you say, "First, I will check the standard works." Well, Lehi saw Christ, Nephi saw Christ, Jacob saw Christ, Isaiah saw Christ, Moroni saw Christ. Check for the standard works.

Now you say, "What does President Hinckley say about Denver Snuffer?" Well, he doesn't say anything. You check your books and find out that Bruce R. McConkie says we should seek the face of the Lord. Check on the prophets.

Now, do you ask the Holy Ghost?

I can tell you exactly what did happen. Not with Denver Snuffer's book, but with "Visions of Glory."

Many told me I "had to read it." The Spirit constrained me. I was not to read the book. I went looking among the scriptures and words of the prophets. I was led to many scriptures that spoke of false prophets and looking to God for prophecy. I was led to a talk by Ezra Taft Benson, among others, that was quite direct:"

"I speak to you on this subject, for I feel it is needed because of rumors, writings, and tape recordings that have recently circulated among the Saints and that have created among some of our Church members a feeling of uncertainty. It calls to mind the counsel given by President Harold B. Lee:

There are among us many loose writings predicting the calamities which are about to overtake us. Some of these have been publicized as though they were necessary to wake up the world to the horrors about to overtake us. Many of these are from sources upon which there cannot be unquestioned reliance.

Are you . . . aware of the fact that we need no such publications to be forewarned, if we were only conversant with what the scriptures have already spoken to us in plainness? [“Admonitions for the Priesthood of God,” Ensign, January 1973, p. 106]

That is precisely the way the Brethren feel today. So, today, I shall quote liberally from the words of the Lord to our dispensation in order that you will have, from the Lord himself, guidance on future prophecy."

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/ezra-taf ... -day-lord/

As you can see, it contains the witness of both Ezra Taft Benson and Harold B. Lee. Two prophets, two witnesses.

Then mother-in-law actually gave me a copy. Talk about social pressure! But I knew what the Lord had said. I counseled with my husband and prayed. I felt by the power of the Holy Ghost to "Start reading the book. Stop when I tell you. Go back and tell her what I said. Then give her back the book."

I was taught ways in which the book did not fit the pattern the Lord had set. I don't know if I can remember them all now, but I know I didn't get past the introduction and first few pages of the first chapter before I was told to stop. Some items: The identity of the individual "Spencer" was secret. I was reminded by the Spirit that "we do not wear masks." The phrase comes from the old Handbook (it may be in the new one as well, I don't know) but the explanation was that God expects us to bare witness, not anonymously. It was pointed out that he doesn't identify the person in high church leadership who told him to share this, again, no identity=no witness. It was pointed out that during the supposed "angelic visit" the angel didn't call him by name. I was led to a passage in the History of the Church where Joseph Smith related a visit by one of Satan's messengers who appeared as an angel of light and he demonstrated that the "angel" did not follow the pattern God had set, in part because he contradicted a true revelation and in part because his appearance didn't fit the pattern God had set for an angel from God. Also Doctrine and Covenants 50 where it speaks of the many false spirits abroad and how to identify them. I was told "This is not from me." I was then directed to go and share these things with her when I returned the book. I was also led to say that unless we had read all the scriptures and words true prophets had written on the subject, we didn't have any reason to go read less authoritative books on the subject.

As you can see, all three witnesses were present: the scriptures, the modern prophets, the Holy Ghost. Each confirmed the words of the other. None contradicted each other. Only the false work itself failed to pass the tests.

This is my testimony.

Sounds like confirmation bias.

But you keep ignoring the fact that a prophet is only speaking for God when he is speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost. All true scripture are words written under the influence of the Holy Ghost. Its all Spirit. Your three witnesses are all Holy Ghost and if it isn't then it isn't from God. You can't know when scripture is from God, or if a man is speaking under the influence of the Holy Ghost without the Holy Ghost. If you just trust in titles, positions, dogmas, and creeds you are practicing idolatry and denying the Holy Ghost or the power of God.

-Finrock

[Arenera]

But we know you don’t like preppers, calamatores, dooms dayers and Visions of Glory. Julie Rowe?

That is actually a funny accusation. None who know me would deny I am a prepper or that I am unaware of the calamities that are beginning to be poured out without measure. The prophesies of the last days are in my thoughts and I speak about them constantly. But only the real prophesies by prophets and scriptures and the Holy Ghost. I simply don't put those in the same category as Visions of Glory or Julie Rowe and other false prophets.

I have plenty of posts on LDSFF that make that clear.

But all my beliefs and actions in these regards fit within the bounds the Lord has set and revealed by the prophets and scriptures. They come from a study of history, demographics, politics, and economics with a heart turned to those authoritative sources I have mentioned.

Let me share one insight from history: In William Bradford's "History of Plimoth Plantation" (not a typo) he speak right at the start the ways that Satan has sought to overthrow the Saints throughout history.

1. By stirring up the heathen to persecute and torture the Saints.
And when that fails and people join the Saints anyway,
2. By planting heresies among the Saints and getting them to contend with each other, until they persecute and torture each other worse than the heathen.

One of the ways he indicates this is manifest is by adding to the simple pure doctrine of Christ until a man soul is too burdened to be able to live the gospel.

This pattern is found in the scriptures and I fear we are getting a double dose right now in history. Both the heathen and the Saints contending with each other until there are very few pure in heart seeking to know the true doctrine of Christ.

I'm not sure if people reacted to Visions of Glory. I know some people reacted to Julie Rowe and made some bad decisions. It seems like every other thread here is about some supposed calamity or event, and the calamity or event doesn't happen. Don't need the spirit since they miss the dates.

I don't see contention among saints where I live, do see some difference of opinions at LDSFF. Conservatives are extremely conservative here.

[brlenox]

Biblically God set up a pattern of operations (Deuteronomy 18) of how He will talk to His people.

We are also shown a pattern of God calling Prophets when things are bad or about to get bad. Our time is no different.

God works in the law of witnesses. God's witnesses are divinely called. With His first witness being scripture. The second is the Prophets. Third is the Holy Ghost.
In fact, when you read the Book of Mormon, the promise about spiritual confirmation does not come at the beginning of the book, it comes at the end. This is the pattern. Even established in Nephi. First we read/study the scriptures and pray for confirmation of the truth contained. First we listen to the words of the Prophet and then pray for confirmation of the truth contained.
We are being shown that we need to bring our understanding and will to the things God instructs from the things He has established.

Sadly, too many think they need an experiential gospel, rather than a doctrinal gospel. They can't have faith unless they see. Seeing is believing.

I find it interesting that so many people anymore bring up Matthew 24. ALL the signs but one are constantly talked about, but the one that is missing is not only the most important, it's also the most mentioned of all latter-days signs in scripture. The sign is spiritual deception.
In fact, in the Matthew 24 version of the Olivet discourse, all other signs are only mentioned 1 time. Spiritual deception is mentioned 4 times. And not only that, it' the first 2 things Jesus Christ warns about.
In the JS translation of the Olivet Discourse, a few other signs are talked about 2 times. Spiritual deception is mentioned 6 times.

I hear people accuse me of putting God into a box. They say God can do whatever God wants. But God is the one who established His way and His patterns, not for God's benefit, but for ours. He knew spiritual deception would be the worst it's ever been in the history of the world at this time. So He gave us not one book of scripture, but 4. He gave us living Prophets. He gave us the holy Ghost. He gave us multiple witnesses to help us continue to eat the fruit of the tree, not just taste and then wander away down forbidden paths.

Anti doesn't just mean against in scripture. It also means another. Anti-Christ isn't just against Christ. It is another Christ. A false Christ. One who strays from God's pattern of sound doctrine and moves to a more experiential gospel.

The experiential people can have their Christ. I want nothing to do with him.

Well.......you are not consistent with the Book of Mormon, or President Nelson.

Russell M. Nelson:

To reach our objective of eternal life, we need to follow teachings in the standard works and other revelations received from prophets of God.(5.See D&C 1:38.) Our loving Lord foresaw our need for guidance: “For strait is the gate,” He said, “and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it.”(6.D&C 132:22.)(Nelson, Russell M., Living by Scriptural Guidance, October 2000)

My dear brothers and sisters, if the Restoration did anything, it shattered the age-old myth that God had stopped talking to His children. Nothing could be further from the truth. A prophet has stood at the head of God’s Church in all dispensations, from Adam to the present day.4 Prophets testify of Jesus Christ—of His divinity and of His earthly mission and ministry.5 We honor the Prophet Joseph Smith as the prophet of this last dispensation. And we honor each man who has succeeded him as President of the Church.

When we sustain prophets and other leaders, we invoke the law of common consent, for the Lord said, “It shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.”(7.Doctrine and Covenants 42:11.)

This gives us, as members of the Lord’s Church, confidence and faith as we strive to keep the scriptural injunction to heed the Lord’s voice((8. 1 Nephi 11:36). as it comes through the voice of His servants the prophets.(9 Daniel 9:10; Amos 3:7; Doctrine and Covenants 21:1, 4–5; 124:45–46.) All leaders in the Lord’s Church are called by proper authority. No prophet or any other leader in this Church, for that matter, has ever called himself or herself. No prophet has ever been elected. The Lord made that clear when He said, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you.”10 You and I do not “vote” on Church leaders at any level. We do, though, have the privilege of sustaining them.(Nelson, Russell M, Sustaining the Prophets, October 2014)

[Arenera]

Biblically God set up a pattern of operations (Deuteronomy 18) of how He will talk to His people.

We are also shown a pattern of God calling Prophets when things are bad or about to get bad. Our time is no different.

God works in the law of witnesses. God's witnesses are divinely called. With His first witness being scripture. The second is the Prophets. Third is the Holy Ghost.
In fact, when you read the Book of Mormon, the promise about spiritual confirmation does not come at the beginning of the book, it comes at the end. This is the pattern. Even established in Nephi. First we read/study the scriptures and pray for confirmation of the truth contained. First we listen to the words of the Prophet and then pray for confirmation of the truth contained.
We are being shown that we need to bring our understanding and will to the things God instructs from the things He has established.

Sadly, too many think they need an experiential gospel, rather than a doctrinal gospel. They can't have faith unless they see. Seeing is believing.

I find it interesting that so many people anymore bring up Matthew 24. ALL the signs but one are constantly talked about, but the one that is missing is not only the most important, it's also the most mentioned of all latter-days signs in scripture. The sign is spiritual deception.
In fact, in the Matthew 24 version of the Olivet discourse, all other signs are only mentioned 1 time. Spiritual deception is mentioned 4 times. And not only that, it' the first 2 things Jesus Christ warns about.
In the JS translation of the Olivet Discourse, a few other signs are talked about 2 times. Spiritual deception is mentioned 6 times.

I hear people accuse me of putting God into a box. They say God can do whatever God wants. But God is the one who established His way and His patterns, not for God's benefit, but for ours. He knew spiritual deception would be the worst it's ever been in the history of the world at this time. So He gave us not one book of scripture, but 4. He gave us living Prophets. He gave us the holy Ghost. He gave us multiple witnesses to help us continue to eat the fruit of the tree, not just taste and then wander away down forbidden paths.

Anti doesn't just mean against in scripture. It also means another. Anti-Christ isn't just against Christ. It is another Christ. A false Christ. One who strays from God's pattern of sound doctrine and moves to a more experiential gospel.

The experiential people can have their Christ. I want nothing to do with him.

Well.......you are not consistent with the Book of Mormon, or President Nelson.

Russell M. Nelson:

To reach our objective of eternal life, we need to follow teachings in the standard works and other revelations received from prophets of God.(5.See D&C 1:38.) Our loving Lord foresaw our need for guidance: “For strait is the gate,” He said, “and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it.”(6.D&C 132:22.)(Nelson, Russell M., Living by Scriptural Guidance, October 2000)

My dear brothers and sisters, if the Restoration did anything, it shattered the age-old myth that God had stopped talking to His children. Nothing could be further from the truth. A prophet has stood at the head of God’s Church in all dispensations, from Adam to the present day.4 Prophets testify of Jesus Christ—of His divinity and of His earthly mission and ministry.5 We honor the Prophet Joseph Smith as the prophet of this last dispensation. And we honor each man who has succeeded him as President of the Church.

When we sustain prophets and other leaders, we invoke the law of common consent, for the Lord said, “It shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.”(7.Doctrine and Covenants 42:11.)

This gives us, as members of the Lord’s Church, confidence and faith as we strive to keep the scriptural injunction to heed the Lord’s voice((8. 1 Nephi 11:36). as it comes through the voice of His servants the prophets.(9 Daniel 9:10; Amos 3:7; Doctrine and Covenants 21:1, 4–5; 124:45–46.) All leaders in the Lord’s Church are called by proper authority. No prophet or any other leader in this Church, for that matter, has ever called himself or herself. No prophet has ever been elected. The Lord made that clear when He said, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you.”10 You and I do not “vote” on Church leaders at any level. We do, though, have the privilege of sustaining them.(Nelson, Russell M, Sustaining the Prophets, October 2014)

3 For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

Are you speaking with the tongue of angels?

17...For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith, for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart.

20 And inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall prosper, and shall be led to a land of promise; yea, even a land which I have prepared for you; yea, a land which is choice above all other lands.

I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others.

You know what I have been saying Br. Lenox.

[brlenox]

I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others.

You know what I have been saying Br. Lenox.

I do know what you have been saying. The fascinating thing about conversations such as these is that they are in essence the purest test for the claims of being guided by the spirit. However, though one may be guided by the spirit, that person cannot prove to you or me that their instruction or insight originates with the spirit. For instance, thus far in this conversation there is no tangible evidence of your being misguided that one could point to and say "there is the physical evidence" of your state of being in error. You almost provided something when you tossed out the Denver wrote a book post but you never owned up to being a Denver supporter. Had you of done so then that would be tangible evidence that you have been deceived.

The challenge is that people use words that, taken at face value, convey a potentially correct message, however, and this is what I sense from your material, though the words in and of themselves portray a potentially correct ideology the manner of emphasis is wrong. Your emphasis seeks to use correct terminologies in a way to sustain an incorrect interpretation.

Many of us do this from time to time and we can simply chalk it up to inaccurate gospel understanding and as we mature we will correct as we are taught accurately. Sometimes though it is because we choose to self sustain and perpetuate our state of mistaken understanding and project it on others.

As an example, your take on the Word of Wisdom, I could have let that be if your presentation had been that you recognized that there was ample prophetic utterance to the body of the church against your stance, but that you felt personally that you had been guided to adopt a meat free approach to your diet. That you were personally guided to be vegan or vegetarian, which ever you are, is entirely possible but not for the body of the church. Your need to claim that your interpretation was correct as generally applicable for all of the church, in spite of the fact that there is clear commentary opposing your interpretation indicated a rebellious spirit as you kept stepping over scripture and apostles and prophets to push your personal agenda.

As an example on the reverse side of the discussion. I fully sustain the scriptural perspective that a man is to protect his family and that if required he may need to bear and possess arms to do so. If times get really out of control and we are to defend ourselves, I fully believe a man would be in error to not step forth and defend his family with whatever means are at his disposal. I have taught this and fully sustain Moroni's stance defending our wives, children, and our God etc.

However, for myself, from the time that I was a bishop my focus was to establish Zion. That was the theme of my tenure and throughout my life I have felt that was where my heart was. I bought a semi - automatic rifle as part of my emergency preparations and kept it for several years but finally the day came that I felt that for me that if I was to be involved in anyway in the establishment of Zion, and I do not know for sure that I will be, but if I am, I knew that Zion would not be established on the back of a gun but would be established by priesthood power and authority. This then is my personal doctrine. It is specific to me and I feel no need or compulsion defend it as doctrine for anyone else in the church but me and I would be wrong to do so. Now I will still defend my family to the best of my ability, however, if I am able to do so it will be because I understand Elder Nelson's, Elder Packers, and others admonition that it will be through the exercise of priesthood power that I will be capable of doing so and not because I have a gun. I do not believe this is required of everyone and that guns and ammunition are a potential of great necessity and that the scriptures and prophets sustain such. However, for me it would be a mistake. Had I recognized that spirit in your WOW efforts and even now as part of this discussion, I could receive your perspective more readily.

However, it seems that when you make up your mind something is right, that you will improperly emphasize your position and step over prophets and apostles and make unsupportable claims such as what you said about another poster not being in agreement with President Nelson when in fact, as I illustrated, they were in perfect accord. That spirit of deceptive emphasis is wrong and even when you use the correct words the nature of your emphasis is what I feel the spirit respond too in my heart that enables me to believe you to be in error. Now, we could go back and forth, your quotes / scriptures versus my quotes / scriptures but I think where the words we are using are not incorrect it might remain simply that type of back and forth that seems contentious and there is no tangible evidence of the issues I detect of false emphasis. Nonetheless it is what I can sense that makes your efforts seem in error to me. The only question that remains in me is your position one of youthful exuberance that will correct in time? or have you taken Denver as your guide and run the risk of sacrificing it all?

Time will tell soon enough I imagine.

[Arenera]

I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others.

You know what I have been saying Br. Lenox.

I do know what you have been saying. The fascinating thing about conversations such as these is that they are in essence the purest test for the claims of being guided by the spirit. However, though one may be guided by the spirit, that person cannot prove to you or me that their instruction or insight originates with the spirit. For instance, thus far in this conversation there is no tangible evidence of your being misguided that one could point to and say "there is the physical evidence" of your state of being in error. You almost provided something when you tossed out the Denver wrote a book post but you never owned up to being a Denver supporter. Had you of done so then that would be tangible evidence that you have been deceived.

The challenge is that people use words that, taken at face value, convey a potentially correct message, however, and this is what I sense from your material, though the words in and of themselves portray a potentially correct ideology the manner of emphasis is wrong. Your emphasis seeks to use correct terminologies in a way to sustain an incorrect interpretation.

Many of us do this from time to time and we can simply chalk it up to inaccurate gospel understanding and as we mature we will correct as we are taught accurately. Sometimes though it is because we choose to self sustain and perpetuate our state of mistaken understanding and project it on others.

As an example, your take on the Word of Wisdom, I could have let that be if your presentation had been that you recognized that there was ample prophetic utterance to the body of the church against your stance, but that you felt personally that you had been guided to adopt a meat free approach to your diet. That you were personally guided to be vegan or vegetarian, which ever you are, is entirely possible but not for the body of the church. Your need to claim that your interpretation was correct as generally applicable for all of the church, in spite of the fact that there is clear commentary opposing your interpretation indicated a rebellious spirit as you kept stepping over scripture and apostles and prophets to push your personal agenda.

As an example on the reverse side of the discussion. I fully sustain the scriptural perspective that a man is to protect his family and that if required he may need to bear and possess arms to do so. If times get really out of control and we are to defend ourselves, I fully believe a man would be in error to not step forth and defend his family with whatever means are at his disposal. I have taught this and fully sustain Moroni's stance defending our wives, children, and our God etc.

However, for myself, from the time that I was a bishop my focus was to establish Zion. That was the theme of my tenure and throughout my life I have felt that was where my heart was. I bought a semi - automatic rifle as part of my emergency preparations and kept it for several years but finally the day came that I felt that for me that if I was to be involved in anyway in the establishment of Zion, and I do not know for sure that I will be, but if I am, I knew that Zion would not be established on the back of a gun but would be established by priesthood power and authority. This then is my personal doctrine. It is specific to me and I feel no need or compulsion defend it as doctrine for anyone else in the church but me and I would be wrong to do so. Now I will still defend my family to the best of my ability, however, if I am able to do so it will be because I understand Elder Nelson's, Elder Packers, and others admonition that it will be through the exercise of priesthood power that I will be capable of doing so and not because I have a gun. I do not believe this is required of everyone and that guns and ammunition are a potential of great necessity and that the scriptures and prophets sustain such. However, for me it would be a mistake. Had I recognized that spirit in your WOW efforts and even now as part of this discussion, I could receive your perspective more readily.

However, it seems that when you make up your mind something is right, that you will improperly emphasize your position and step over prophets and apostles and make unsupportable claims such as what you said about another poster not being in agreement with President Nelson when in fact, as I illustrated, they were in perfect accord. That spirit of deceptive emphasis is wrong and even when you use the correct words the nature of your emphasis is what I feel the spirit respond too in my heart that enables me to believe you to be in error. Now, we could go back and forth, your quotes / scriptures versus my quotes / scriptures but I think where the words we are using are not incorrect it might remain simply that type of back and forth that seems contentious and there is no tangible evidence of the issues I detect of false emphasis. Nonetheless it is what I can sense that makes your efforts seem in error to me. The only question that remains in me is your position one of youthful exuberance that will correct in time? or have you taken Denver as your guide and run the risk of sacrificing it all?

Time will tell soon enough I imagine.

In the Word of Wisdom discussion, you invoked "Son of Perdition". In this discussion, you have invoked "I was a bishop". I know you still need some work because charity isn't there. I'm glad you were a bishop but that doesn't matter either.

I am not a supporter of Denver Snuffer, he is a false prophet. In the example I mentioned, there was no word from the prophet about him, so a person needs the Spirit to see what to do, where to go. If you only rely on the prophet/s, you are not getting to spiritual self-reliance.

I don't acquiesce spirituality, being baptized by fire, speaking with the tongue of angels to Denver Snuffer or the Remnants. Nor do I have an issue talking about it. It seems to me that is what President Nelson meant.

I suppose what I consider the greater portion is a individual journey. Almost everyone doesn't see it, it is like a veil over the Book of Mormon. You folks have been worried about me being a Snuffer follower or some type of a Remnant. You are absolutely wrong and you have been hardheaded and not even attempting to understand what I have been saying.

[Alaris]

The church is a vehicle to get God's children to the temple where the journey at that point is outlined. The messengers bring you to Christ. Christ brings you to the Father.

Denver Snuffer's argument - if I understand it correctly - is that once you are brought to Christ then you will see that the LDS church has gone astray.

Arenera / Finrock's argument - if I understand them correctly - is that once you are brought to Christ you will be listening to the same Christ to whom the brethren listen. He may tell them A and tell you B where A and B are different but do not contradict (the example of Lehi "vs" Jeremiah.) If anyone tells you A or B, be it your father or the prophet, then you can go to Christ yourself to confirm ala Nephi.

Am I missing something?

Perhaps there is another point that the brethren cover A-R publicly where S-Z is learned individually through personal revelation. I feel there are those who throw up a big wall at R or even Q (since R tells you to go find S-Z on your own) in the name of safety and comfort.

Denver Snuffer is certainly alarming - watching an offshoot spring up. However if he and those who have followed him are considered the "elect" then they have been deceived or deceived themselves through sin before signing up with Snuffer in my humble opinion.

Edit: I should add that S-Z is the basis of many of Denver Snuffer's writing and publications and has used that truth to gratify his pride and manipulate his base. That doesn't make the principle of seeking out the mysteries untrue or something to be avoided:

1 Nephi10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

[brlenox]

Time will tell soon enough I imagine.

In the Word of Wisdom discussion, you invoked "Son of Perdition". In this discussion, you have invoked "I was a bishop". I know you still need some work because charity isn't there. I'm glad you were a bishop but that doesn't matter either.

I am not a supporter of Denver Snuffer, he is a false prophet. In the example I mentioned, there was no word from the prophet about him, so a person needs the Spirit to see what to do, where to go. If you only rely on the prophet/s, you are not getting to spiritual self-reliance.

I don't acquiesce spirituality, being baptized by fire, speaking with the tongue of angels to Denver Snuffer or the Remnants. Nor do I have an issue talking about it. It seems to me that is what President Nelson meant.

I suppose what I consider the greater portion is a individual journey. Almost everyone doesn't see it, it is like a veil over the Book of Mormon. You folks have been worried about me being a Snuffer follower or some type of a Remnant. You are absolutely wrong and you have been hardheaded and not even attempting to understand what I have been saying.

You tend to focus on specific types of things. I won't bother with my interpretations of what these insecurities seem to manifest but sufficient to say that your response to my using a quote that described a behavior that was one shared by those who are sons of perdition is the very same response that we have been talking about. Regardless of how I couched my use of the quote and qualified that I was not applying the quote to you only that you shared a behavior mentioned in the quote you continue to manifest a personal interpretation and slight that was not directed at you. Since you have been carrying that around for ever now, if it helps, I apologize that you took the quote to mean I was saying you were a son of perdition. Especially in light of the fact that a majority of prophetic utterance on the subject indicates the majority belief is one that a woman cannot become perdition. I guess that tosses equal rights out the window as an eternal ambition.

Nonetheless, my example was not to bring you up against your angst about my son of perdition quote but was to illustrate very clearly the behavior that I am questioning about how you go about your presentation of personal belief as doctrine for all the church. The fact that you do not respond to my obvious message, very clearly spelled out is the point. That you claim others are not listening to your message is not precisely correct. I am attempting to show you why there is resistance to your perspective. If I take the time to give you examples from your own work and then I give you an opposite example from my own experience, I would hope that you would ponder or at least think about the text enough to realize the message was about emphasis.

However, again you illustrate the point oh so clearly. What you respond with is an accusation that I am boasting and then completely sidestep the point of my post. What this looks like is that you have manufactured, created, fabricated, if you will, a perspective that completely misses the point of communication I was attempting to share. You have created a false point of emphasis and you have done so for a reason that you do not acknowledge. I think, to you, what you responded with was the point of my post, that is what you saw and overlaid on top of my intended meaning. Even though I made no mention of the Son of perdition issue you still harbor an anxiety about your mistaken offense and now you cannot see anything else. Thus by the, or because of the, personal overlay you completely missed the point of my post. That is also what I am attempting to illustrate is what you appear to be doing with the gospel. You overlay your personal doctrines on top of the doctrines of the church and then wonder why some take occasion against such. If your views are as skewed by personal experience in applying the gospel then we can rest assured you are being consistent in the fashion of how you are responding to my posts as to how you skew the gospel.

It is good to know that you denounce Denver. That at least places you in a better place that you might be willing to alter some of your slightly off interpretations. If they are just the momentary blips that all encounter then I can have absolutely no issue that you should have a few of such understandings. My concern was simply that there appears a similar spirit in your method of interaction and emphasis as is in Denver's material and I was genuinely concerned as you frequently are very accurate and correct in other areas of the gospel and as I stated once before, it is a tragedy to lose any to Denver's misdirection especially someone as capable as you are.

[Arenera]

Time will tell soon enough I imagine.

In the Word of Wisdom discussion, you invoked "Son of Perdition". In this discussion, you have invoked "I was a bishop". I know you still need some work because charity isn't there. I'm glad you were a bishop but that doesn't matter either.

I am not a supporter of Denver Snuffer, he is a false prophet. In the example I mentioned, there was no word from the prophet about him, so a person needs the Spirit to see what to do, where to go. If you only rely on the prophet/s, you are not getting to spiritual self-reliance.

I don't acquiesce spirituality, being baptized by fire, speaking with the tongue of angels to Denver Snuffer or the Remnants. Nor do I have an issue talking about it. It seems to me that is what President Nelson meant.

I suppose what I consider the greater portion is a individual journey. Almost everyone doesn't see it, it is like a veil over the Book of Mormon. You folks have been worried about me being a Snuffer follower or some type of a Remnant. You are absolutely wrong and you have been hardheaded and not even attempting to understand what I have been saying.

You tend to focus on specific types of things. I won't bother with my interpretations of what these insecurities seem to manifest but sufficient to say that your response to my using a quote that described a behavior that was one shared by those who are sons of perdition is the very same response that we have been talking about. Regardless of how I couched my use of the quote and qualified that I was not applying the quote to you only that you shared a behavior mentioned in the quote you continue to manifest a personal interpretation and slight that was not directed at you. Since you have been carrying that around for ever now, if it helps, I apologize that you took the quote to mean I was saying you were a son of perdition. Especially in light of the fact that a majority of prophetic utterance on the subject indicates the majority belief is one that a woman cannot become perdition. I guess that tosses equal rights out the window as an eternal ambition.

Nonetheless, my example was not to bring you up against your angst about my son of perdition quote but was to illustrate very clearly the behavior that I am questioning about how you go about your presentation of personal belief as doctrine for all the church. The fact that you do not respond to my obvious message, very clearly spelled out is the point. That you claim others are not listening to your message is not precisely correct. I am attempting to show you why there is resistance to your perspective. If I take the time to give you examples from your own work and then I give you an opposite example from my own experience, I would hope that you would ponder or at least think about the text enough to realize the message was about emphasis.

However, again you illustrate the point oh so clearly. What you respond with is an accusation that I am boasting and then completely sidestep the point of my post. What this looks like is that you have manufactured, created, fabricated, if you will, a perspective that completely misses the point of communication I was attempting to share. I think, to you, what you responded with was the point of my post, that is what you saw and overlaid on top of my intended meaning. Even though I made no mention of the Son of perdition issue you still harbor an anxiety about your mistaken offense and now you cannot see anything else. Thus by the, or because of the, personal overlay you completely missed the point of my post. That is also what I am attempting to illustrate is what you appear to be doing with the gospel. You overlay your personal doctrines on top of the doctrines of the church and then wonder why some take occasion against such. If your views are as skewed by personal experience in applying the gospel then we can rest assured you are being consistent in the fashion of how you are responding to my posts as to how you skew the gospel.

It is good to know that you denounce Denver. That at least places you in a better place that you might be willing to alter some of your slightly off interpretations. If they are just the momentary blips that all encounter then I can have absolutely no issue that you should have a few of such understandings. My concern was simply that there appears a similar spirit in your method of interaction and emphasis as is in Denver's material and I was genuinely concerned as you frequently are very accurate and correct in other areas of the gospel and as I stated once before, it is a tragedy to lose any to Denver's misdirection especially someone as capable as you are.

Alaris seems to understand, you are still not getting it. If a person can't see (darkness), or they have unbelief, or they have bias then they don't pick up on the message, even if the message is plain. Nephi said the same thing, actually Nephi said it first. Although it is plainly in the writings of Nephi, almost everyone is skipping over it.

Stand back and ponder it, get rid of your bias, get the scales off your eyes.
1 Nephi 2, 3
1 Nephi 11, 12, 13, 14
2 Nephi 31, 32
Mosiah 2, 3, 4, 5
Alma 5
Helaman 5
Ether 3, 4, 12
Moroni 7, 10