A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

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Michelle
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Michelle »

Gideon wrote: October 10th, 2017, 11:09 pm 5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
(D&C 39:5–6)

47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.
(D&C 84:47)

5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
(2 Ne. 32:5)

2 And I, Nephi, said unto them: Behold they were manifest unto the prophet by the voice of the Spirit; for by the Spirit are all things made known unto the prophets, which shall come upon the children of men according to the flesh.
(1 Ne. 22:2)


How can there be a conflict between following the voice of the Spirit and following the direction and teachings of church leaders who are directed by the Spirit?

Michelle, what do you mean by "falsely called"?
I mean the "personal revelations" that have been shared on this board, in books and by people I know in real life, that don't happen. Then they make up an excuse or move the goal post. I would term is "superstition" instead of faith. These "revelations" come from "familiar spirits" so they mistake them for the Holy Spirit because they don't know His voice and don't compare the "personal revelation" to that which has already been revealed by prophets and scripture.

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Arenera
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

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43 And now, my son, I would that ye should understand that these things are not without a shadow; for as our fathers were slothful to give heed to this compass (now these things were temporal) they did not prosper; even so it is with things which are spiritual.

44 For behold, it is as easy to give heed to the word of Christ, which will point to you a straight course to eternal bliss, as it was for our fathers to give heed to this compass, which would point unto them a straight course to the promised land.

Hivetyrant36
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Hivetyrant36 »

The problem isn't necessarily those who claim they have a revelation, it's the society in the church that is constantly relating emotion to the spirit. How often on fast Sunday does somebody stand at the pulpit and cry and everybody thinks, they must have the spirit because they are crying? Or in a meeting at the end, every single person who stands to close out the meeting says something along the lines of "thank god for the spirit we felt here today" as if they could speak for everybody in the room, or if they would feel the spirit while doing unspiritual things. I've even heard that line used after an intense soccer match in Wednesday night activities. The problem is people don't know what the spirit it, so they mimic each other. They don't know doctrine so they mimic others. They say things without meaning and it teaches young people that there is something wrong with them because they don't "feel" the spirit when in my experience, the spirit acts with information and thought more than anything. Those kids who think there is something wrong with them learn false doctrine by others who have no clue and grow up and bam, you have yourself a church full of selfish "revelations" meant to get fame or just based on naivety.
There is a reason I don't call my dreams revelation. They are dreams. I ask father to tell me what they mean and in time more is unfolded as I read back upon the recording of said dream. Revelation is personal, and ONLY the prophet receives revelation for the entire world. A president may receive revelation for his country, a bishop for his ward, a father or mother for their family, but Bill from down the street cannot receive revelation for somebody else's life or even the country.
Often times revelation has things that pertain to a country or world event, but it is always to edify and teach and warn one individual, and the revelation is not meant for others.

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brlenox
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by brlenox »

Silver Pie wrote: October 11th, 2017, 6:28 pm I'm thinking of opening a hotel or a rooming house in Outer Darkness. I'll rent you a room real cheap. :evil: :x :) :geek: :ugeek: (The best smilies are gone, but these will do, I suppose.)
brlenox wrote: October 10th, 2017, 10:39 pm
drtanner wrote: October 10th, 2017, 10:43 am
Arenera wrote: October 10th, 2017, 10:07 am Hard headed. Stiff necked. Walking in darkness at noon day.
What are you referring to here? Brlenox?
She is only talking to me as I am probably the only one who would recognize the phrasing from a quote I once used to illustrate a point but she took it as I was applying it to her in totality. Walking in darkness at noon day is a word play on a phrase that defines the type of behavior of one who is a son of perdition. She has been carrying it around for a while now.

If true looks like I am going to have some redecorating to do...
Tempting offer...hmmm. Will these have indoor plumbing?

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Arenera
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Re: Emotions run rampant when it comes to revelation

Post by Arenera »

LDS Anarchist wrote: October 13th, 2017, 8:53 pm
Hivetyrant36 wrote: October 13th, 2017, 12:18 pm The problem isn't necessarily those who claim they have a revelation, it's the society in the church that is constantly relating emotion to the spirit. How often on fast Sunday does somebody stand at the pulpit and cry and everybody thinks, they must have the spirit because they are crying? Or in a meeting at the end, every single person who stands to close out the meeting says something along the lines of "thank god for the spirit we felt here today" as if they could speak for everybody in the room, or if they would feel the spirit while doing unspiritual things. I've even heard that line used after an intense soccer match in Wednesday night activities. The problem is people don't know what the spirit it, so they mimic each other. They don't know doctrine so they mimic others. They say things without meaning and it teaches young people that there is something wrong with them because they don't "feel" the spirit when in my experience, the spirit acts with information and thought more than anything.
Amen, brother.

This reminds me of a former friend of mine, who used to come over to my house all of the time, to "pass things by me," to find out what I thought. This friend of mine knew I had the gift of the word of knowledge and so he would bring new things he had learned to me, to find out what my gift indicated. He knew that it operated instantly, and it kind of ticked him off how fast I received new knowledge. He'd go off and study and pray for months on a thing, and then come back to me all timid, wanting to share his "revelation" with me, but also not wanting to, and then he'd get his nerve up and tell it to me, and while he'd be giving the background of the information, he'd be telling me of all the preparation he made with study and prayer and thought and how he was so very sure that the revelation or information he had gotten was correct, and then he'd share the information, and as he'd be giving the information, I'd stop him before he was even finished and say, "Nope. That's wrong. You got that all wrong." He'd then ask, "Why?" And I'd say, "Because it contradicts a revelation I received on such-and-such a date." And then I'd proceed to tell him the revelation, which he never knew about, and then he'd get all upset, because he'd then say, "What you just told me accords with my study of the scriptures here and here" and he'd start spouting out all the scriptures he'd been studying, which he hadn't understood until I gave the revelation, which backed up the new understanding I gave him, and he himself would confirm that the revelation I had received was a true revelation, and that given that it was true, his "revelation" or thought or idea and conclusions were false. This man knew for a fact that my revelations were all true. He was absolutely convinced that if there was anyone on this planet receiving revelations, it was me. And he knew that whatever revelation I brought forth "trumped" everything else. And we'd talk and I'd expound the revelation to him, and also the scriptures he had studied, and he'd get pacified because he'd learn things he never knew, and he knew I had more revelations than I ever told him about, so he'd always be timid about telling me of something he thought he got from the Spirit, because he knew that it might be that I had had some revelation in the past that he didn't know about, which invalidated his "revelation." And he'd leave me both rejoicing and upset. Rejoicing, because he'd come away with more information than he ever bargained for, for I would tell him revelations that I told to no one, because he believed them, for he had a believing heart, and constantly wanted to know more from my gift, but he'd also go away upset that he had spent all that time studying and praying and it always turned out that his revelation from God wasn't the real deal.

Why wasn't it the real deal? Because this man relied upon his feelings to determine what was of God, and not on the actual gifts of the Spirit. He didn't have the gift of the word of knowledge, like me. He couldn't receive revelations, like me. Or manifested understandings. And whenever he saw things one way, and someone saw it differently, he would defend his position, because of all the time he put into learning that thing. But if I contradicted what he said, by my gift, he'd shut up and then he'd get pissed. Why? Because he knew my gift was real, and if I said something contrary to what he believed, he knew he had to give up his belief. He knew that what I said, no matter what I said, was always more correct than what anyone else said, if I was using my gift. And it made him upset that I'd get knowledge instantly, instead of spending months and years of study like him.

Now, I will say one more thing about this man, but first I will say a thing about when I first joined the church. There was a girl in my first ward who would always stand up during fast and testimony meeting and give her testimony and cry. She'd sob so much that nobody could understand a word she said. And I would make fun of her all of the time. I loved her (and she was super cute), but she annoyed the heck out of me with all her crying. She thought that was the Spirit. And on my mission I had a companion who would teach the gospel through tears, and I made fun of him, too. He thought he was feeling the Spirit. He wasn't. I have the gift of the discerning of spirits. If I'm not feeling the Spirit, it's because the Spirit isn't manifesting. If you say you are feeling the Spirit, but I don't discern the Spirit in you, you ain't feeling the Spirit. And this man cried all the time, like the first lady. And I'd make fun of him constantly. In response he'd say he was worried for my soul, worried that I was lost, that I was going to hell, because I didn't sob out the gospel. And I'd laugh and make fun of him even more for all his pointless and annoying concern for my soul.

Now, back to my former friend. One day he took me aside and said with all the feeling of his heart that he was concerned for my soul, that he worried about me because I didn't cry when I testified, like everyone else did. I laughed in his face. This man knew I received seemingly endless revelations and manifestations, and here he was thinking I was going to hell because my heart was obviously hard, since he never saw me cry when preaching or teaching the gospel, like he and everyone else did. I told him that crying wasn't an indication that the Spirit was manifesting. I told him to not worry about my soul, which was just fine thank you, but to worry about his own soul, which was incapable of distinguishing between the Spirit and a false spirit, because he thought every "good feeling" must be of God.

Now, a few years later I broke off the friendship because I discerned, by the discerning of spirits, that the man's brain had snapped and he was now a danger to me and my family. Less than two years later he murdered his brother and is now serving a lifetime sentence.

So much for crying being an indication of God speaking.

God looks upon the inward man, while hypocritical man looks upon the outer man. You come to me crying or saying that the "revelation" you got from God consisted of a warm feeling you got about something, and I will immediately suspect you got a false revelation. I may not shoot down your revelation, but if it contradicts what I say, by my gift, then you got a false revelation, despite your feelings. If, however, your revelatory feeling aligns with my revelations, then that still doesn't mean you got a real revelation. You might just be a lucky guesser.

Revelation doesn't come from emotional feelings, but from intellectual feelings. There might be an accompanying emotional feeling, but that accompanying emotional feeling is separate from the revelation. All those who claim to have received revelation for this or that and say it was a feeling they got, that is, an emotional feeling they got, have not received a revelation from God about any thing.

So many people who are present when I receive a revelation are baffled when I state, "I have just received a revelation from God. It is such-and-such." They all wonder, "How is it possible this man has received a revelation? Where are the tears? Where is the crying? Where is the choked up speech?" These people are amateurs in the Spirit. They don't know anything about the Spirit, nor how it operates.

A case in point: this so-called Revelation 12 Sign. I look to the sign, and the Holy Ghost says nothing to me. I look at it again, and say, "It appears to be nothing but a mere shadow," and I immediately get a "correct" response from the Holy Ghost. Others look at the sign and pray about it and claim to have received "confirmation" that this sign is more than just a mere shadow. Oh, really? Well, that contradicts my manifested understanding, now, doesn't it? How did these others get their claimed "revelations?" Inevitably, by some emotional feeling.
1 Nephi 17:45

45 Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were past feeling, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder

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Jonesy
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Re: Emotions run rampant when it comes to revelation

Post by Jonesy »

LDS Anarchist wrote: October 13th, 2017, 8:53 pm Revelation doesn't come from emotional feelings, but from intellectual feelings.
That makes sense, but what in the heck do you mean by "intellectual feelings". Like an "aha" moment? So, you're saying whenever the scriptures relate feelings to the Spirit then it is talking about this intellectual feeling? Do you suppose some people are just more prone to express emotionally when they have the Spirit? For example, President Eyring?

I could ask you questions all day, too. But I'd rather know how you get this gift. I'm stuck in a hole and tired of my apparent inability to discern.

Hivetyrant36
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Re: Emotions run rampant when it comes to revelation

Post by Hivetyrant36 »

Jonesy wrote: October 13th, 2017, 9:29 pm
LDS Anarchist wrote: October 13th, 2017, 8:53 pm Revelation doesn't come from emotional feelings, but from intellectual feelings.
That makes sense, but what in the heck do you mean by "intellectual feelings". Like an "aha" moment? So, you're saying whenever the scriptures relate feelings to the Spirit then it is talking about this intellectual feeling? Do you suppose some people are just more prone to express emotionally when they have the Spirit? For example, President Eyring?

I could ask you questions all day, too. But I'd rather know how you get this gift. I'm stuck in a hole and tired of my apparent inability to discern.
Every time I’ve received an intellectual revelation, I feel as if my body is doing its own thing and my thought can suddenly think at 1000 miles per minute, which isn’t normal for me. I posted somewhere on this site about having driven 2 miles without being conscious of it, being caught up in super luminous thought. I had received the thoughts that my mother would die. At the time there was no indication, but 8 months later she passed. Sometimes when you are trying to learn something that is truth, the spirit can constrain you to believe it. I guess this is where people say they get the warm feeling, but it is not warm. Its more along the lines of an undefined comfort in your soul. You cant feel it but yet you feel it. I’ve only had this happen 3 times in my life. 99% of the time the spirit is the “aha!” Moment. There is a reason they call it an epiphany.

Hivetyrant36
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Hivetyrant36 »

Thank you for sharing LDS Anarchist. Your and my revelations seem to be of the same kind. I, more than most people, know the damaging effects of following an emotional revelation. I basically ruined my teenage years and was almost thrown out of college for “stalking” (I wasnt) because I believed I had received revelation that I would marry a girl. The revelation was me crying in bed for no reason, and church culture tells us that is the spirit, when indeed it is not. People say “wait 15 minutes kneeling with your eyes closed after a prayer to receive revelation,” and it’s honestly sad how many people vehemently defend that because a prophet had that experience once.

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AI2.0
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by AI2.0 »

Onsdag wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:14 am
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.

Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
A wonderful scripture! Here are a few more to add to your repertoire:
1 Corinthians 14:32-33
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
This is a great one because it points out that even though we should all strive to have the spirit of prophecy and personal revelation ourselves, we are all still subject to the prophets. And why is this? Because "God is not the author of confusion." This principle applies "in all churches of the saints." Here's a good case in point. The 'Remnant' group, Snufferites, and other apostate groups around here like to frequently bring up the scripture in Numbers 11 to defend their position that we should all be prophets:
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!
Fair enough. But the principle in 1 Corinthians 14:32-33 still applies - we are to be subject to the Prophets - and you can kindly point them to the very next chapter in Numbers 12 to demonstrate this:
1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses...
2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.
3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
4 And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.
5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.
10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
So "the anger of the Lord was kindled against" Aaron and Miriam because of their rebellious heart and speaking out against His servant, the Prophet Moses, and therefore He publicly rebuked them in no uncertain terms and essentially told them that even though they were to be prophets they were still to be subject to the Prophet.
This is excellent, thank you for sharing and it explains this concept clearly. :)

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AI2.0
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by AI2.0 »

brlenox wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:35 pm
silk wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:24 pm
mcusick wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:28 am
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am

First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.
That revelation (D&C 1) was given in 1831 and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was not established until 1835. I don't think it's proper to impose an eisegetical interpretation of the text onto the world. Maybe it is the correct interpretation, but it is hardly self-evident.
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
The Lord's Kingdom is organized and doesn't need to be restored again? I didn't think Council of Fifty was extant, and I don't think by abandoning it we are "[living] what has already been revealed."
It's an interesting idea that there might be apostles outside of the Twelve. The Gospel Principles manual seems to allow for that possibility as well:
Those who are ordained to the office of Apostle in the Melchizedek Priesthood are usually set apart as members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
So I agree that if there are other men, properly called to the office of apostle through the keys of the Melchizedek priesthood, we should heed their counsel as well. At the current time, however, I am only aware of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (unless you want to count the Three Nephites and John the Revelator).
Perhaps it might help if you were able to identify when it was the case where one was ordained an apostle and yet was not set apart as a member of the quorum of the twelve. Then this would not seem like such a mysterious situation that undermines the obvious intent that we should look to the apostles and prophets sustained as such by the membership of the LDS church.

This is speaking to a situation such as Alvin R. Dyer who was ordained to the office of an apostle and then immediately set apart as a member of the First Presidency though he had never been a sitting member of the Quorum of the Twelve, which is the usual procedure.
Another example to add to yours is when Joseph F. Smith was ordained an apostle by Brigham Young but there was no vacancy in the Quorum at the time. I'm certain these are the types of situations the Gospel Principles manual is referring to.

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Arenera
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

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4 And thus did the Spirit of the Lord work upon them, for they were the very vilest of sinners. And the Lord saw fit in his infinite mercy to spare them; nevertheless they suffered much anguish of soul because of their iniquities, suffering much and fearing that they should be cast off forever.

for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.

3 But this is not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God.

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Arenera
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Arenera »

I urge the people of the Church, wherever you may be, when you are faced with problems, first to try to solve those problems yourselves. Think about them, study alternatives available to you, pray about them, and look to the Lord for direction. If you are unable to settle them yourselves, then talk with your bishop or branch president. He is a man of God, called under the authority of the holy priesthood as the shepherd of the flock.

President Hinckley

Hivetyrant36
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Re: Emotions run rampant when it comes to revelation

Post by Hivetyrant36 »

LDS Anarchist wrote: October 14th, 2017, 3:35 pm "It was like a puzzle with all its pieces scattered around the floor had suddenly come together so that I could finally and perfectly see the picture."
Oh my that describes my experience perfectly.


Michelle
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Michelle »

ndjili wrote: October 16th, 2017, 2:04 pm http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1286
Thank you for this.

From the talk:
May I suggest three short tests to avoid being deceived, both pertaining to this freedom struggle and all other matters.

1. What do the standard works have to say about it? "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them," said Isaiah (Isa. 8:20). This is one of the great truths of Isaiah so important that it was included in the Book of Mormon scriptures. There it reads: "To the law and to the testimony; and if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (2 Ne. 18:20). And Hosea said, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6).

We must diligently study the scriptures. Of special importance to us are the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph Smith said, ". . . that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (DHC 4:461.)

The Book of Mormon, Brigham Young said, was written on the tablets of his heart and no doubt helped save him from being deceived. The Book of Mormon has a lot to say about America, freedom, and secret combinations.

The Doctrine and Covenants is important because it contains the revelations which helped lay the foundation of this great latter-day work. It speaks of many things. Section 134, verse 2, states that government should hold inviolate the rights and control of property (D&C 134:2). This makes important reading in a day when government controls are increasing and people are losing the right to control their own property.

2. The second guide is: what do the latter-day Presidents of the Church have to say on the subject—particularly the living President? President Wilford Woodruff related an instance in church history when Brigham Young was addressing a congregation in the presence of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

"Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down: and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said, 'There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day.' 'And now,' said he, 'when compared with the living oracles, those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.' That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: 'Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth'" (Conference Report, October 1897, pp. 18-19).

There is only one man on the earth today who speaks for the Church (see D&C 21:4; D&C 132:7). That man is President David O. McKay. Because he gives the word of the Lord for us today, his words have an even more immediate importance than those of the dead prophets. When speaking under the influence of the Holy Ghost his words are scripture (see D&C 68:4). I commend for your reading the masterful discourse of President J. Reuben Clark Jr., in the Church News of July 31, 1954, entitled: "When Are Church Leader's Words Entitled to Claim of Scripture?"

The President can speak on any subject he feels is needful for the Saints. As Brigham Young has stated: "I defy any man on earth to point out the path a prophet of God should walk in, or point out his duty, and just how far he must go, in dictating temporal or spiritual things. Temporal and spiritual things are inseparably connected, and ever will be" (JD 10:364). Other officers in the kingdom have fallen but never the Presidents. Keep your eye on the captain is still good counsel. The words of a living prophet must, and ever will take precedence.

President McKay has said a lot about our tragic trends towards socialism and communism and the responsibilities liberty-loving people have in defending and preserving our Constitution (see Conference Report, April 1953, pp. 112-113). Have we read these words from God's mouthpiece and pondered on them?

3. The third and final test is the Holy Ghost—the test of the Spirit. By that Spirit we ". . . may know the truth of all things" (Moro. 10:5). This test can only be fully effective if one's channels of communication with God are clean and virtuous and uncluttered with sin.
AMEN!

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Arenera
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Arenera »

Michelle wrote: October 16th, 2017, 10:34 pm
ndjili wrote: October 16th, 2017, 2:04 pm http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1286
Thank you for this.

From the talk:
May I suggest three short tests to avoid being deceived, both pertaining to this freedom struggle and all other matters.

1. What do the standard works have to say about it? "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them," said Isaiah (Isa. 8:20). This is one of the great truths of Isaiah so important that it was included in the Book of Mormon scriptures. There it reads: "To the law and to the testimony; and if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (2 Ne. 18:20). And Hosea said, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6).

We must diligently study the scriptures. Of special importance to us are the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph Smith said, ". . . that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (DHC 4:461.)

The Book of Mormon, Brigham Young said, was written on the tablets of his heart and no doubt helped save him from being deceived. The Book of Mormon has a lot to say about America, freedom, and secret combinations.

The Doctrine and Covenants is important because it contains the revelations which helped lay the foundation of this great latter-day work. It speaks of many things. Section 134, verse 2, states that government should hold inviolate the rights and control of property (D&C 134:2). This makes important reading in a day when government controls are increasing and people are losing the right to control their own property.

2. The second guide is: what do the latter-day Presidents of the Church have to say on the subject—particularly the living President? President Wilford Woodruff related an instance in church history when Brigham Young was addressing a congregation in the presence of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

"Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down: and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said, 'There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day.' 'And now,' said he, 'when compared with the living oracles, those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.' That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: 'Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth'" (Conference Report, October 1897, pp. 18-19).

There is only one man on the earth today who speaks for the Church (see D&C 21:4; D&C 132:7). That man is President David O. McKay. Because he gives the word of the Lord for us today, his words have an even more immediate importance than those of the dead prophets. When speaking under the influence of the Holy Ghost his words are scripture (see D&C 68:4). I commend for your reading the masterful discourse of President J. Reuben Clark Jr., in the Church News of July 31, 1954, entitled: "When Are Church Leader's Words Entitled to Claim of Scripture?"

The President can speak on any subject he feels is needful for the Saints. As Brigham Young has stated: "I defy any man on earth to point out the path a prophet of God should walk in, or point out his duty, and just how far he must go, in dictating temporal or spiritual things. Temporal and spiritual things are inseparably connected, and ever will be" (JD 10:364). Other officers in the kingdom have fallen but never the Presidents. Keep your eye on the captain is still good counsel. The words of a living prophet must, and ever will take precedence.

President McKay has said a lot about our tragic trends towards socialism and communism and the responsibilities liberty-loving people have in defending and preserving our Constitution (see Conference Report, April 1953, pp. 112-113). Have we read these words from God's mouthpiece and pondered on them?

3. The third and final test is the Holy Ghost—the test of the Spirit. By that Spirit we ". . . may know the truth of all things" (Moro. 10:5). This test can only be fully effective if one's channels of communication with God are clean and virtuous and uncluttered with sin.
AMEN!
Don’t you think it should be in this order?

The Holy Ghost - the test of the Spirit.
What do the standard works say about it?
What do the latter-day Presidents have to say on the subject?

drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by drtanner »

Arenera wrote: October 17th, 2017, 7:19 am
Michelle wrote: October 16th, 2017, 10:34 pm
ndjili wrote: October 16th, 2017, 2:04 pm http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1286
Thank you for this.

From the talk:
May I suggest three short tests to avoid being deceived, both pertaining to this freedom struggle and all other matters.

1. What do the standard works have to say about it? "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them," said Isaiah (Isa. 8:20). This is one of the great truths of Isaiah so important that it was included in the Book of Mormon scriptures. There it reads: "To the law and to the testimony; and if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (2 Ne. 18:20). And Hosea said, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6).

We must diligently study the scriptures. Of special importance to us are the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph Smith said, ". . . that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (DHC 4:461.)

The Book of Mormon, Brigham Young said, was written on the tablets of his heart and no doubt helped save him from being deceived. The Book of Mormon has a lot to say about America, freedom, and secret combinations.

The Doctrine and Covenants is important because it contains the revelations which helped lay the foundation of this great latter-day work. It speaks of many things. Section 134, verse 2, states that government should hold inviolate the rights and control of property (D&C 134:2). This makes important reading in a day when government controls are increasing and people are losing the right to control their own property.

2. The second guide is: what do the latter-day Presidents of the Church have to say on the subject—particularly the living President? President Wilford Woodruff related an instance in church history when Brigham Young was addressing a congregation in the presence of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

"Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down: and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said, 'There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day.' 'And now,' said he, 'when compared with the living oracles, those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.' That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: 'Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth'" (Conference Report, October 1897, pp. 18-19).

There is only one man on the earth today who speaks for the Church (see D&C 21:4; D&C 132:7). That man is President David O. McKay. Because he gives the word of the Lord for us today, his words have an even more immediate importance than those of the dead prophets. When speaking under the influence of the Holy Ghost his words are scripture (see D&C 68:4). I commend for your reading the masterful discourse of President J. Reuben Clark Jr., in the Church News of July 31, 1954, entitled: "When Are Church Leader's Words Entitled to Claim of Scripture?"

The President can speak on any subject he feels is needful for the Saints. As Brigham Young has stated: "I defy any man on earth to point out the path a prophet of God should walk in, or point out his duty, and just how far he must go, in dictating temporal or spiritual things. Temporal and spiritual things are inseparably connected, and ever will be" (JD 10:364). Other officers in the kingdom have fallen but never the Presidents. Keep your eye on the captain is still good counsel. The words of a living prophet must, and ever will take precedence.

President McKay has said a lot about our tragic trends towards socialism and communism and the responsibilities liberty-loving people have in defending and preserving our Constitution (see Conference Report, April 1953, pp. 112-113). Have we read these words from God's mouthpiece and pondered on them?

3. The third and final test is the Holy Ghost—the test of the Spirit. By that Spirit we ". . . may know the truth of all things" (Moro. 10:5). This test can only be fully effective if one's channels of communication with God are clean and virtuous and uncluttered with sin.
AMEN!
Don’t you think it should be in this order?

The Holy Ghost - the test of the Spirit.
What do the standard works say about it?
What do the latter-day Presidents have to say on the subject?
Often we forget that scriptures are simply the words of "living prophets" compiled at the time they lived. It seems we could easily replace "time period" with "country" in the words of Christ here
John 4: 44 For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country
If we do not esteem our modern day prophets in the same regard then chances are we have not really tested the veracity of their calling, message, and the importance in our own relationship to Christ and his church. Elder Hales last words as read by Elder Anderson in conference add a testimony of this.

Michelle
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Michelle »

Arenera wrote: October 17th, 2017, 7:19 am
Michelle wrote: October 16th, 2017, 10:34 pm
ndjili wrote: October 16th, 2017, 2:04 pm http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1286
Thank you for this.

From the talk:
May I suggest three short tests to avoid being deceived, both pertaining to this freedom struggle and all other matters.

1. What do the standard works have to say about it? "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them," said Isaiah (Isa. 8:20). This is one of the great truths of Isaiah so important that it was included in the Book of Mormon scriptures. There it reads: "To the law and to the testimony; and if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (2 Ne. 18:20). And Hosea said, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6).

We must diligently study the scriptures. Of special importance to us are the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph Smith said, ". . . that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (DHC 4:461.)

The Book of Mormon, Brigham Young said, was written on the tablets of his heart and no doubt helped save him from being deceived. The Book of Mormon has a lot to say about America, freedom, and secret combinations.

The Doctrine and Covenants is important because it contains the revelations which helped lay the foundation of this great latter-day work. It speaks of many things. Section 134, verse 2, states that government should hold inviolate the rights and control of property (D&C 134:2). This makes important reading in a day when government controls are increasing and people are losing the right to control their own property.

2. The second guide is: what do the latter-day Presidents of the Church have to say on the subject—particularly the living President? President Wilford Woodruff related an instance in church history when Brigham Young was addressing a congregation in the presence of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

"Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down: and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said, 'There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day.' 'And now,' said he, 'when compared with the living oracles, those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.' That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: 'Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth'" (Conference Report, October 1897, pp. 18-19).

There is only one man on the earth today who speaks for the Church (see D&C 21:4; D&C 132:7). That man is President David O. McKay. Because he gives the word of the Lord for us today, his words have an even more immediate importance than those of the dead prophets. When speaking under the influence of the Holy Ghost his words are scripture (see D&C 68:4). I commend for your reading the masterful discourse of President J. Reuben Clark Jr., in the Church News of July 31, 1954, entitled: "When Are Church Leader's Words Entitled to Claim of Scripture?"

The President can speak on any subject he feels is needful for the Saints. As Brigham Young has stated: "I defy any man on earth to point out the path a prophet of God should walk in, or point out his duty, and just how far he must go, in dictating temporal or spiritual things. Temporal and spiritual things are inseparably connected, and ever will be" (JD 10:364). Other officers in the kingdom have fallen but never the Presidents. Keep your eye on the captain is still good counsel. The words of a living prophet must, and ever will take precedence.

President McKay has said a lot about our tragic trends towards socialism and communism and the responsibilities liberty-loving people have in defending and preserving our Constitution (see Conference Report, April 1953, pp. 112-113). Have we read these words from God's mouthpiece and pondered on them?

3. The third and final test is the Holy Ghost—the test of the Spirit. By that Spirit we ". . . may know the truth of all things" (Moro. 10:5). This test can only be fully effective if one's channels of communication with God are clean and virtuous and uncluttered with sin.
AMEN!
Don’t you think it should be in this order?

The Holy Ghost - the test of the Spirit.
What do the standard works say about it?
What do the latter-day Presidents have to say on the subject?
I do not, because we are to find truth "even by study and also by faith." If you haven't studied and tried to find an answer, what do you take to the Lord to ask for confirmation or rejection by the Spirit?

Doctrine and Covenants 88:118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.
Doctrine and Covenants 9:7-9
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.
I study the scriptures and words of living prophets daily so that I will be prepared to be led by the Spirit when a question arises. If I don't have an answer, I go back and study more until the Spirit confirms the correct answer. When my husband and I have to make a big decision we "own the idea": picking one option or the other after study and prayer, and then waiting to see if the Spirit confirms the decision. If we don't get confirmation, we try again. This has always resulted in us both receiving the same answer.

ndjili
captain of 100
Posts: 984

Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by ndjili »

Correct things in the wrong order can lead to deception. Hence President Benson outlined the correct order.

Also, I find it curious when people bring up Nephi and Laban as a lesson on solely relying on the Holy Ghost, and yet no one brings up the whole purpose of his task. To get the brass plates. Why? Because "It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

The Word and study of the Word is imperative for a people's spiritual survival. The righteous among Lehi's family had the Holy Ghost, but that alone would not be enough.

drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by drtanner »

ndjili wrote: October 17th, 2017, 9:51 am Correct things in the wrong order can lead to deception. Hence President Benson outlined the correct order.

Also, I find it curious when people bring up Nephi and Laban as a lesson on solely relying on the Holy Ghost, and yet no one brings up the whole purpose of his task. To get the brass plates. Why? Because "It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

The Word and study of the Word is imperative for a people's spiritual survival. The righteous among Lehi's family had the Holy Ghost, but that alone would not be enough.
Not to mention the fact that Nephi initially listened to the council of a living prophet for his direction:
1Nephi3:1 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, returned from speaking with the Lord, to the tent of my father. 2And it came to pass that he spake unto me, saying: Behold I have dreamed a dream, in the which the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brethren shall return to Jerusalem.

User avatar
Arenera
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2712

Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Arenera »

Arenera wrote: Don’t you think it should be in this order?

The Holy Ghost - the test of the Spirit.
What do the standard works say about it?
What do the latter-day Presidents have to say on the subject?
Michelle wrote: October 17th, 2017, 9:31 am I do not, because we are to find truth "even by study and also by faith." If you haven't studied and tried to find an answer, what do you take to the Lord to ask for confirmation or rejection by the Spirit?
Doctrine and Covenants 88:118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.
Doctrine and Covenants 9:7-9
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.
I study the scriptures and words of living prophets daily so that I will be prepared to be led by the Spirit when a question arises. If I don't have an answer, I go back and study more until the Spirit confirms the correct answer. When my husband and I have to make a big decision we "own the idea": picking one option or the other after study and prayer, and then waiting to see if the Spirit confirms the decision. If we don't get confirmation, we try again. This has always resulted in us both receiving the same answer.
ndjili wrote:Correct things in the wrong order can lead to deception. Hence President Benson outlined the correct order.

Also, I find it curious when people bring up Nephi and Laban as a lesson on solely relying on the Holy Ghost, and yet no one brings up the whole purpose of his task. To get the brass plates. Why? Because "It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

The Word and study of the Word is imperative for a people's spiritual survival. The righteous among Lehi's family had the Holy Ghost, but that alone would not be enough.
What do we say to an investigator? Read these words from our prophet? No, we say:
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
Let's review this example:
Denver Snuffer writes a book, The Second Comforter:: Conversing with the Lord Through the Veil, in June of 2006. A friend of yours says, "You've got to read this book, it's great!"

So you say, "First, I will check the standard works." Well, Lehi saw Christ, Nephi saw Christ, Jacob saw Christ, Isaiah saw Christ, Moroni saw Christ. Check for the standard works.

Now you say, "What does President Hinckley say about Denver Snuffer?" Well, he doesn't say anything. You check your books and find out that Bruce R. McConkie says we should seek the face of the Lord. Check on the prophets.

Now, do you ask the Holy Ghost?

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Finrock »

Prophets are only prophets when they speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. Those things which are scripture are things that have been uttered by or uttered under the influence of the Holy Ghost. It all comes back to the Spirit or the Holy Ghost. Men have no true authority without the Spirit. No man speaks for God without the Spirit. Nothing is scripture if it isn't from the Spirit.

Which prophet does President Monson check with to validate or to confirm that he is speaking truth or the words of the God?

-Finrock

drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by drtanner »

Finrock wrote: October 17th, 2017, 10:54 am Prophets are only prophets when they speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. Those things which are scripture are things that have been uttered by or uttered under the influence of the Holy Ghost. It all comes back to the Spirit or the Holy Ghost. Men have no true authority without the Spirit. No man speaks for God without the Spirit. Nothing is scripture if it isn't from the Spirit.

Which prophet does President Monson check with to validate or to confirm that he is speaking truth or the words of the God?

-Finrock
Christ

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Finrock »

drtanner wrote: October 17th, 2017, 10:56 am
Finrock wrote: October 17th, 2017, 10:54 am Prophets are only prophets when they speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. Those things which are scripture are things that have been uttered by or uttered under the influence of the Holy Ghost. It all comes back to the Spirit or the Holy Ghost. Men have no true authority without the Spirit. No man speaks for God without the Spirit. Nothing is scripture if it isn't from the Spirit.

Which prophet does President Monson check with to validate or to confirm that he is speaking truth or the words of the God?

-Finrock
Christ
That is the assumption, yes, but you are now equivocating. Not to mention that saying Christ is just another way of saying the Holy Spirit or God, which in the end validates Arenera's argument. But, removing the equivocation, which mortal prophet does President Monson check with, which man/mortal does President Monson check with to validate or to confirm that he is speaking truth or the words of God?

-Finrock

User avatar
Arenera
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2712

Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Arenera »

drtanner wrote: October 17th, 2017, 10:08 am
ndjili wrote: October 17th, 2017, 9:51 am Correct things in the wrong order can lead to deception. Hence President Benson outlined the correct order.

Also, I find it curious when people bring up Nephi and Laban as a lesson on solely relying on the Holy Ghost, and yet no one brings up the whole purpose of his task. To get the brass plates. Why? Because "It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

The Word and study of the Word is imperative for a people's spiritual survival. The righteous among Lehi's family had the Holy Ghost, but that alone would not be enough.
Not to mention the fact that Nephi initially listened to the council of a living prophet for his direction:
1Nephi3:1 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, returned from speaking with the Lord, to the tent of my father. 2And it came to pass that he spake unto me, saying: Behold I have dreamed a dream, in the which the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brethren shall return to Jerusalem.
Did you miss the part where Nephi returned from speaking with the Lord?

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