A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

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Michelle
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A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Michelle »

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.

Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.

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Arenera
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Arenera »

Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.

Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
It’s important to be led by the Spirit. This includes the Light of Christ and the Holy Ghost. It is wonderful to have our prophets, but we need our own relationship with the Spirit just like Nephi had.

gangbusters
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by gangbusters »

Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.

Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
This is a great scripture and a true principle. However, you must prepare for a lot of blowback from the fringe elements on the board. The best way to get their ire stirred up is by saying the church is true (it’s totally and utterly condemned, you know).

The second best way is by saying we should follow our leaders. For if they follow their leaders they’ll have to surrender their own precepts, (most of which exist to justify their own misdeeds), not to mention humble themselves and admit they don’t know everything and have it all figured out. And that just can’t be.

Another thing they like to say is “the Spirit trumps all!” as a way to justify their personal “revelations” taking precedent over leaders’ counsel. The spirit of course is vital in our walk with the Lord, but they use it as a justification to walk their own way at the expense of prophetic counsel that conflicts with their view.

So proceed with caution!
Last edited by gangbusters on October 7th, 2017, 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Michelle
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Michelle »

Arenera wrote: October 7th, 2017, 8:09 am
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.

Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
It’s important to be led by the Spirit. This includes the Light of Christ and the Holy Ghost. It is wonderful to have our prophets, but we need our own relationship with the Spirit just like Nephi had.
Of course, as stated above. But when their is a conflict, listen to the prophet, he knows the way.

drtanner
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by drtanner »

gangbusters wrote: October 7th, 2017, 8:15 am
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.

Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
This is a great scripture and a true principle. However, you must prepare for a lot of blowback from the fringe elements on the board. The best way to get their ire stirred up is by saying the church is true (it’s totally and utterly condemned, you know).

The second best way is by saying we should follow our leaders. For if they follow their leaders they’ll have to surrender their own precepts, (most of which exist to justify their own misdeeds), not to mention humble themselves and admit they don’t know everything and have it all figured out. And that just can’t be.

Another thing they like to say is “the Spirit trumps all!” as a way to justify their personal “revelations” taking precedent over leaders’ counsel. The spirit of course is vital in our walk with the Lord, but they use it as a justification to walk their own way at the expense of prophetic counsel that conflicts with their view.

So proceed with caution!
One more to add, :) if you share your testimony of living prophets you may be labeled as self righteous, prideful, and having a confirmation bias shaped by a paradigm of tradition. But I say, share what you know to be true! Great scripture.

That being said, I do enjoy the thoughts and insights of most everyone here despite some the feelings and sentiments towards the church and its leaders. I believe there is a principle in establishing opposing views:

“By proving contraries, truth is made manifest.”
Joseph Smith Jr.
Last edited by drtanner on October 7th, 2017, 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Arenera
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Arenera »

Well.....God knows the way. The voice of the Lord is available to all of us.

Do you really believe you need to ask the prophet for everything you do?

That isn’t any different than the Snufferites waiting for Snuffer to tell them what to do.

President Nelson said we should be instructed by the Lord himself. He didn’t say we should be instructed by the Prophet himself.

Onsdag
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Onsdag »

Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.

Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
A wonderful scripture! Here are a few more to add to your repertoire:
1 Corinthians 14:32-33
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
This is a great one because it points out that even though we should all strive to have the spirit of prophecy and personal revelation ourselves, we are all still subject to the prophets. And why is this? Because "God is not the author of confusion." This principle applies "in all churches of the saints." Here's a good case in point. The 'Remnant' group, Snufferites, and other apostate groups around here like to frequently bring up the scripture in Numbers 11 to defend their position that we should all be prophets:
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!
Fair enough. But the principle in 1 Corinthians 14:32-33 still applies - we are to be subject to the Prophets - and you can kindly point them to the very next chapter in Numbers 12 to demonstrate this:
1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses...
2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.
3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
4 And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.
5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.
10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
So "the anger of the Lord was kindled against" Aaron and Miriam because of their rebellious heart and speaking out against His servant, the Prophet Moses, and therefore He publicly rebuked them in no uncertain terms and essentially told them that even though they were to be prophets they were still to be subject to the Prophet.

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mcusick
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by mcusick »

Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.
That revelation (D&C 1) was given in 1831 and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was not established until 1835. I don't think it's proper to impose an eisegetical interpretation of the text onto the world. Maybe it is the correct interpretation, but it is hardly self-evident.
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
The Lord's Kingdom is organized and doesn't need to be restored again? I didn't think Council of Fifty was extant, and I don't think by abandoning it we are "[living] what has already been revealed."

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brlenox
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by brlenox »

Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.

Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
Fabulous scripture - well met. I would like to add one to it which I think describes those who broadly proclaim how the spirit is what is most important while they undermine the apostles and prophets. There is a very subtle warning that has often not been noted.
Doctrine and Covenants 45:56-57

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
The point being that I am reasonably convinced that many did have a sincere desire and even sincere conversions with the baptism of fire. However, after they took the Holy Spirit for their guide they were unprepared for this natural association that is spoken to in these verses. They were unprepared for Satan being able to tempt them in greater and more subtle ways and so they have been deceived and the surest way to succeed in the deception is to lead them away from the prophets and apostles.

silk
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by silk »

mcusick wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:28 am
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.
That revelation (D&C 1) was given in 1831 and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was not established until 1835. I don't think it's proper to impose an eisegetical interpretation of the text onto the world. Maybe it is the correct interpretation, but it is hardly self-evident.
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
The Lord's Kingdom is organized and doesn't need to be restored again? I didn't think Council of Fifty was extant, and I don't think by abandoning it we are "[living] what has already been revealed."
It's an interesting idea that there might be apostles outside of the Twelve. The Gospel Principles manual seems to allow for that possibility as well:
Those who are ordained to the office of Apostle in the Melchizedek Priesthood are usually set apart as members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
So I agree that if there are other men, properly called to the office of apostle through the keys of the Melchizedek priesthood, we should heed their counsel as well. At the current time, however, I am only aware of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (unless you want to count the Three Nephites and John the Revelator).

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brlenox
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by brlenox »

Arenera wrote: October 7th, 2017, 9:52 am Well.....God knows the way. The voice of the Lord is available to all of us.

Do you really believe you need to ask the prophet for everything you do?

That isn’t any different than the Snufferites waiting for Snuffer to tell them what to do.

President Nelson said we should be instructed by the Lord himself. He didn’t say we should be instructed by the Prophet himself.
Why don't you simply take the verses that Michelle has quoted and deal precisely with them and tell us what they say. They really are what you are comparing with and I would love to see how you take them head on for just exactly what they say.

The point being that there is a bit of ambiguity in your comments. For instance when you state "Do you really believe you need to ask the prophet for everything you do?" it sounds like you are using hyperbole to make a point. This because that statement has not been suggested by anyone but you and yet there is an element of truth - no not everything is asked of the prophet- but since no one stated that and it appears you are creating a deflection by the absurdity of the question then I cannot agree with the point even though the answer is obvious. But I think that if you just dealt with the verses it would be more easily understood what your true perspective is.

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brlenox
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by brlenox »

silk wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:24 pm
mcusick wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:28 am
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.
That revelation (D&C 1) was given in 1831 and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was not established until 1835. I don't think it's proper to impose an eisegetical interpretation of the text onto the world. Maybe it is the correct interpretation, but it is hardly self-evident.
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
The Lord's Kingdom is organized and doesn't need to be restored again? I didn't think Council of Fifty was extant, and I don't think by abandoning it we are "[living] what has already been revealed."
It's an interesting idea that there might be apostles outside of the Twelve. The Gospel Principles manual seems to allow for that possibility as well:
Those who are ordained to the office of Apostle in the Melchizedek Priesthood are usually set apart as members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
So I agree that if there are other men, properly called to the office of apostle through the keys of the Melchizedek priesthood, we should heed their counsel as well. At the current time, however, I am only aware of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (unless you want to count the Three Nephites and John the Revelator).
Perhaps it might help if you were able to identify when it was the case where one was ordained an apostle and yet was not set apart as a member of the quorum of the twelve. Then this would not seem like such a mysterious situation that undermines the obvious intent that we should look to the apostles and prophets sustained as such by the membership of the LDS church.

This is speaking to a situation such as Alvin R. Dyer who was ordained to the office of an apostle and then immediately set apart as a member of the First Presidency though he had never been a sitting member of the Quorum of the Twelve, which is the usual procedure.

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skmo
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by skmo »

Arenera wrote: October 7th, 2017, 9:52 am Do you really believe you need to ask the prophet for everything you do?
No. But we listen to the prophet as he gives us God's words as a church organization, GOD'S organization, to do.
That isn’t any different than the Snufferites waiting for Snuffer to tell them what to do.
Well, that has to be one of the most ridiculous and troubling ideas for an LDS person with a testimony of Christ's gospel to have.
Last edited by skmo on October 7th, 2017, 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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brlenox
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by brlenox »

mcusick wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:28 am
That revelation (D&C 1) was given in 1831 and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was not established until 1835. I don't think it's proper to impose an eisegetical interpretation of the text onto the world. Maybe it is the correct interpretation, but it is hardly self-evident.
It is a bit disingenuous to claim an eisegetical interpretation when, far from being an individuals interpretation, it is the accepted interpretation by all those who have ever served in positions of being a General Authority of the church and subsequently widely accepted by the majority of its membership who sustain these leaders.

Perhaps yours is the more eisegetical position - wouldn't you think?

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Arenera
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Arenera »

brlenox wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:28 pm
Arenera wrote: October 7th, 2017, 9:52 am Well.....God knows the way. The voice of the Lord is available to all of us.

Do you really believe you need to ask the prophet for everything you do?

That isn’t any different than the Snufferites waiting for Snuffer to tell them what to do.

President Nelson said we should be instructed by the Lord himself. He didn’t say we should be instructed by the Prophet himself.
Why don't you simply take the verses that Michelle has quoted and deal precisely with them and tell us what they say. They really are what you are comparing with and I would love to see how you take them head on for just exactly what they say.

The point being that there is a bit of ambiguity in your comments. For instance when you state "Do you really believe you need to ask the prophet for everything you do?" it sounds like you are using hyperbole to make a point. This because that statement has not been suggested by anyone but you and yet there is an element of truth - no not everything is asked of the prophet- but since no one stated that and it appears you are creating a deflection by the absurdity of the question then I cannot agree with the point even though the answer is obvious. But I think that if you just dealt with the verses it would be more easily understood what your true perspective is.
Ok......14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord

They who will not hear the voice of the Lord. Can you hear me now?

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brlenox
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by brlenox »

Arenera wrote: October 7th, 2017, 8:09 am
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.

Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
It’s important to be led by the Spirit. This includes the Light of Christ and the Holy Ghost. It is wonderful to have our prophets, but we need our own relationship with the Spirit just like Nephi had.
You will find that Nephi's guidance was predicted upon more sure principles than a single witness of the Holy Ghost as to what should be properly done in the case of Laban. Moses assisted him in coming to an understanding of the truth. If people properly understood the principle we would not see near so many misclaims for the spirits guidance.

For a more accurate understanding of the Laben / Nephi scenario I commend you to this post:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30453&p=418502&hil ... ox#p418502

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brlenox
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by brlenox »

Arenera wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:53 pm
brlenox wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:28 pm
Arenera wrote: October 7th, 2017, 9:52 am Well.....God knows the way. The voice of the Lord is available to all of us.

Do you really believe you need to ask the prophet for everything you do?

That isn’t any different than the Snufferites waiting for Snuffer to tell them what to do.

President Nelson said we should be instructed by the Lord himself. He didn’t say we should be instructed by the Prophet himself.
Why don't you simply take the verses that Michelle has quoted and deal precisely with them and tell us what they say. They really are what you are comparing with and I would love to see how you take them head on for just exactly what they say.

The point being that there is a bit of ambiguity in your comments. For instance when you state "Do you really believe you need to ask the prophet for everything you do?" it sounds like you are using hyperbole to make a point. This because that statement has not been suggested by anyone but you and yet there is an element of truth - no not everything is asked of the prophet- but since no one stated that and it appears you are creating a deflection by the absurdity of the question then I cannot agree with the point even though the answer is obvious. But I think that if you just dealt with the verses it would be more easily understood what your true perspective is.
Ok......14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord

They who will not hear the voice of the Lord. Can you hear me now?
Now now calm down little Missy, no need to go get all riled up. We are just having a friendly discussion here. However it is interesting to me that you excised this portion of the very verse in question.


"neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;"


I thought we would try a "still small voice" font size to calm your fraying nerves.

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mcusick
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by mcusick »

brlenox wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:46 pm
mcusick wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:28 am
That revelation (D&C 1) was given in 1831 and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was not established until 1835. I don't think it's proper to impose an eisegetical interpretation of the text onto the world. Maybe it is the correct interpretation, but it is hardly self-evident.
It is a bit disingenuous to claim an eisegetical interpretation when, far from being an individuals interpretation, it is the accepted interpretation by all those who have ever served in positions of being a General Authority of the church and subsequently widely accepted by the majority of its membership who sustain these leaders.

Perhaps yours is the more eisegetical position - wouldn't you think?
So consensus = exegesis. And ideas apart from consensus = eisegesis. Got it! Can't believe I did not know what those words meant. How very stupid of me!

drtanner
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by drtanner »

brlenox wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:17 pm
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.

Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
Fabulous scripture - well met. I would like to add one to it which I think describes those who broadly proclaim how the spirit is what is most important while they undermine the apostles and prophets. There is a very subtle warning that has often not been noted.
Doctrine and Covenants 45:56-57

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
The point being that I am reasonably convinced that many did have a sincere desire and even sincere conversions with the baptism of fire. However, after they took the Holy Spirit for their guide they were unprepared for this natural association that is spoken to in these verses. They were unprepared for Satan being able to tempt them in greater and more subtle ways and so they have been deceived and the surest way to succeed in the deception is to lead them away from the prophets and apostles.
Perfectly said

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brlenox
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by brlenox »

mcusick wrote: October 7th, 2017, 1:11 pm
brlenox wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:46 pm
mcusick wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:28 am
That revelation (D&C 1) was given in 1831 and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was not established until 1835. I don't think it's proper to impose an eisegetical interpretation of the text onto the world. Maybe it is the correct interpretation, but it is hardly self-evident.
It is a bit disingenuous to claim an eisegetical interpretation when, far from being an individuals interpretation, it is the accepted interpretation by all those who have ever served in positions of being a General Authority of the church and subsequently widely accepted by the majority of its membership who sustain these leaders.

Perhaps yours is the more eisegetical position - wouldn't you think?
So consensus = exegesis. And ideas apart from consensus = eisegesis. Got it! Can't believe I did not know what those words meant. How very stupid of me!
Take no umbrage my good man for there is no need. Perhaps the query is less eisegetical and more exegetical as it is far more in line with the nature of this OP that when we have inspired apostles and prophets as leaders, who have specific duties of assisting the saints to come unto Christ, which is what the verses in the OP are actually dealing with, and they do these things in tandem with an additional witness in the Holy Ghost that we as the saints who sustain such might find ourselves wise to recognize when that same spirit speaks to us with a common voice we have shared an exegetical experience.

If it seems wise to you to acknowledge that the scriptures are written through the power of the spirit and that if one can gain that same spirit and it confirms consensus with subsequent interpretations by apostles and prophets have we not then participated in perhaps the purest form of exegetical experience that can be had by mankind. As to extrapolate the intended meaning of the words of God by using the tools of God one can surely do no better.

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TrueIntent
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by TrueIntent »

Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.

Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
Who says anyone is rebeling against God? I would rather rebel against a man than the Holy Spirit....occasionally in the old testament, we find that "holy men" err....just like we do. Even Moses wife threw a foreskin at him...paul argues with the other apostles about correct teachings of the ordinances for the church (referring to whether the gentiles should be circumcised).......So which apostles was right?. All groups of people throughout the bible end up corrupting the ordinances. Thats the big thing that happens in Isaiahs prophesying of a "future event"....God says someone has turned away from his ordinances (See 3 Nephi, Isaiah). If they didn't corrupt them, we wouldn't have to of had them restored....and we know there have been several changes made to the ordinances since Jospehs day...so the questions is...what is truth...what is correct?.....Come on now. Truth comes in levels of understanding. The more knowledge we obtain, the less we need to stand on someone elses witness. Joseph smith was restoring keys of knowledge....most of us still don't know how to use the keys. Im not saying that anyone is deliberately teaching the church things in error...but yes...individuals can obtain knowledge on their own. Otherwise, Joseph preaches against his own experiences that were his witness.


Sorry...I just erred....it wasn't all groups of people that corrupted the ordinances....in the chapter I believed, the Lord specifically calls out the Sons of Levi...which are the ones administering the ordinances (...i don't have it in front of me..but you're welcome to correct me if Im wrong).

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TrueIntent
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by TrueIntent »

TrueIntent wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:55 pm
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.

Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
Who says anyone is rebeling against God? I would rather rebel against a man than the Holy Spirit....occasionally in the old testament, we find that "holy men" err....just like we do. Even Moses wife threw a foreskin at him...paul argues with the other apostles about correct teachings of the ordinances for the church (referring to whether the gentiles should be circumcised).......So which apostles was right?. All groups of people throughout the bible end up corrupting the ordinances. Thats the big thing that happens in Isaiahs prophesying of a "future event"....God says someone has turned away from his ordinances (See 3 Nephi, Isaiah). If they didn't corrupt them, we wouldn't have to of had them restored....and we know there have been several changes made to the ordinances since Jospehs day...so the questions is...what is truth...what is correct?.....Come on now. Truth comes in levels of understanding. The more knowledge we obtain, the less we need to stand on someone elses witness. Joseph smith was restoring keys of knowledge....most of us still don't know how to use the keys. Im not saying that anyone is deliberately teaching the church things in error...but yes...individuals can obtain knowledge on their own. Otherwise, Joseph preaches against his own experiences that were his witness.


Sorry...I just erred....it wasn't all groups of people that corrupted the ordinances....in the chapter I believed, the Lord specifically calls out the Sons of Levi...which are the ones administering the ordinances (...i don't have it in front of me..but you're welcome to correct me if Im wrong).

Btw...prophets and apostles included those in scripture. And servants is more than just prophets and apostles. Average Joes are usually testifying of christ....we shouldn't take away the testimonies of those individuals.

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lemuel
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by lemuel »

brlenox wrote: October 7th, 2017, 1:07 pm
Arenera wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:53 pm
brlenox wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:28 pm
Arenera wrote: October 7th, 2017, 9:52 am Well.....God knows the way. The voice of the Lord is available to all of us.

Do you really believe you need to ask the prophet for everything you do?

That isn’t any different than the Snufferites waiting for Snuffer to tell them what to do.

President Nelson said we should be instructed by the Lord himself. He didn’t say we should be instructed by the Prophet himself.
Why don't you simply take the verses that Michelle has quoted and deal precisely with them and tell us what they say. They really are what you are comparing with and I would love to see how you take them head on for just exactly what they say.

The point being that there is a bit of ambiguity in your comments. For instance when you state "Do you really believe you need to ask the prophet for everything you do?" it sounds like you are using hyperbole to make a point. This because that statement has not been suggested by anyone but you and yet there is an element of truth - no not everything is asked of the prophet- but since no one stated that and it appears you are creating a deflection by the absurdity of the question then I cannot agree with the point even though the answer is obvious. But I think that if you just dealt with the verses it would be more easily understood what your true perspective is.
Ok......14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord

They who will not hear the voice of the Lord. Can you hear me now?
Now now calm down little Missy, no need to go get all riled up. We are just having a friendly discussion here. However it is interesting to me that you excised this portion of the very verse in question.


"neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;"


I thought we would try a "still small voice" font size to calm your fraying nerves.
Do I need to jump into this conversation so y’all can remember who the real apostates are here? Arenera’s pretty orthodox.

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lemuel
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by lemuel »

silk wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:24 pm
mcusick wrote: October 7th, 2017, 10:28 am
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."
First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.
That revelation (D&C 1) was given in 1831 and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was not established until 1835. I don't think it's proper to impose an eisegetical interpretation of the text onto the world. Maybe it is the correct interpretation, but it is hardly self-evident.
Michelle wrote: October 7th, 2017, 5:57 am Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.
The Lord's Kingdom is organized and doesn't need to be restored again? I didn't think Council of Fifty was extant, and I don't think by abandoning it we are "[living] what has already been revealed."
It's an interesting idea that there might be apostles outside of the Twelve. The Gospel Principles manual seems to allow for that possibility as well:
Those who are ordained to the office of Apostle in the Melchizedek Priesthood are usually set apart as members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
So I agree that if there are other men, properly called to the office of apostle through the keys of the Melchizedek priesthood, we should heed their counsel as well. At the current time, however, I am only aware of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (unless you want to count the Three Nephites and John the Revelator).
Here’s one example of someone called as an apostle but not into the Q12:
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... 04_125.pdf

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Arenera
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Re: A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

Post by Arenera »

lemuel wrote: October 7th, 2017, 6:23 pm
brlenox wrote: October 7th, 2017, 1:07 pm
Arenera wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:53 pm
brlenox wrote: October 7th, 2017, 12:28 pm

Why don't you simply take the verses that Michelle has quoted and deal precisely with them and tell us what they say. They really are what you are comparing with and I would love to see how you take them head on for just exactly what they say.

The point being that there is a bit of ambiguity in your comments. For instance when you state "Do you really believe you need to ask the prophet for everything you do?" it sounds like you are using hyperbole to make a point. This because that statement has not been suggested by anyone but you and yet there is an element of truth - no not everything is asked of the prophet- but since no one stated that and it appears you are creating a deflection by the absurdity of the question then I cannot agree with the point even though the answer is obvious. But I think that if you just dealt with the verses it would be more easily understood what your true perspective is.
Ok......14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord

They who will not hear the voice of the Lord. Can you hear me now?
Now now calm down little Missy, no need to go get all riled up. We are just having a friendly discussion here. However it is interesting to me that you excised this portion of the very verse in question.


"neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;"


I thought we would try a "still small voice" font size to calm your fraying nerves.
Do I need to jump into this conversation so y’all can remember who the real apostates are here? Arenera’s pretty orthodox.
It depends on the day for how I’m perceived.

I understand the WoW to eat meat sparingly and that it pleases the Lord to not eat meat at all. Michelle and Brienox are guided by the Spirit differently. Brienox even sent me to hell for my understanding.

The First Presidency have all said we should follow the Spirit. I win!
Preparation of Thomas S. Monson: Always Follow the Promptings of the Spirit
My purpose today is to increase your desire and your determination to claim the gift promised to each of us after we were baptized. During our confirmation we heard these words: “Receive the Holy Ghost.”1 From that moment, our lives changed forever.
Open your heart to the Holy Ghost so that He can direct you along your journey through life.

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