A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

[brlenox]

It depends on the day for how I’m perceived.

I was wondering if you had read the Nephi slaying Laban scenario as that might give you pause to reconsider how it is that we are commonly lead by the spirit and as Nephi was. It is a bit different that you seem to understand it to be...but I agree with everything you said. :%:

Yes, I noticed the spirit mentioned many times. Nephi’s story is about following the spirit to greater spiritual experiences. Do you really want to deny personal revelation?

Tis tragic...you seem so busy being defensive that you won't even try to see if there is something more, something of greater illumination that might expand your understandings of how the Lord does things.

Nonetheless, what you are missing is that the Holy Ghost reminded Nephi of a second witness to what he was being lead to do. He reminded Nephi of this concept in Exodus:

Exodus 21:13

12 ¶ He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.

If you study out the discourse of Nephi you will note that the above phrase is referenced 3 times in the dialogue between Nephi and the spirit. It is this process of receiving his second witness from scripture that eliminates his concerns and persuades him to follow the voice of the spirit. He is not left to only rely on the spirit to whisper things into his ears, but he brings to his remembrance the scriptures and the voice of the prophet Moses - a second witness. Now with these two witnesses, the scriptures and the guidance of the Holy Ghost he is persuaded to act.

What so commonly is misunderstood is that no one is wise to rely on one witness. That is how one is deceived by the whisperings of false spirits because people do not understand what is a legitimate process of communication from the Lord for scenarios of this type. Thus whenever you receive inspiration but it is in opposition to the scriptures or the words of apostles and prophets you can surely know that you are in the cross hairs of a deceiving spirit. Thus when I see someone a bit reluctant to acknowledge the great worth and value of apostles and prophets and those bent on emphasizing their imperfections and potential for error then I realize that they have taken a false spirit for their guide and if they do not grow to understand properly will follow that spirit right on out of the church...and perhaps even to a vegan restaurant...

My question then is does this perspective make sense to you? Can you see the validity of why I might find some occasion with certain of your observations and why I sought for further specific response to particular elements of the scriptures. In an attempt to understand you correctly, I was hoping to gain that clarification through dialogue - you have made that effort difficult by being so defensive but hopefully I have allayed your fears and we can simply discuss to our mutual and full understanding.

[diligently seeking]

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."

First let me say, there shouldn't be a conflict here: The Lord's house is one of order. The Holy Ghost does not encourage you to rebel against God. (When we see what appear to be contradictions to this in the scripture: exceptions, you will note that it is not the individual asking God for an exception, it is the Spirit directing and I can't think of an instance in which the person WANTED to be the exception. For example, Nephi killing Laban. One could also argue he wasn't really an exception since Laban had tried to kill him already and stolen his property. He was justified in self defense.) The Holy Ghost is a second witness.

Second, in Joseph Smith's day, the Lord's kingdom was not organized on the earth and therefore had to be restored. That is not the case today, so any false correlation between current prophetic counsel to avoid false prophets, in no way conflicts with Joseph receiving revelation and restoring the Church the way he did. Now that it IS organized, there is not a need to restore it again. We just need to live what has already been revealed.

Fabulous scripture - well met. I would like to add one to it which I think describes those who broadly proclaim how the spirit is what is most important while they undermine the apostles and prophets. There is a very subtle warning that has often not been noted.

Doctrine and Covenants 45:56-57

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

The point being that I am reasonably convinced that many did have a sincere desire and even sincere conversions with the baptism of fire. However, after they took the Holy Spirit for their guide they were unprepared for this natural association that is spoken to in these verses. They were unprepared for Satan being able to tempt them in greater and more subtle ways and so they have been deceived and the surest way to succeed in the deception is to lead them away from the prophets and apostles.

Brianox, I would discourage you from diminishing... the significance of receiving the BoF & H.G.

If you myself or anyone wants not to be burned and hewn down at the Lord's coming-- we would do well to receive the purifying sanctifying---- revelatory power that comes from the baptism of fire and reception of the Holy Ghost...

Also motivatingly enough-- we cannot be on the path that leads back to eternal life unless we have received this great privileged experience / gift.


Speaking on (all / most of us knowing) the most effective weapon ( to overcome deception etc) with the whole armor of God that is available to us the Gift of the Holy Ghost--- Nephi says this about the BoF & H.G etc.:


2nephi 31

11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.
12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.
13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.
15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.



The Prophet Joseph said:
"It is the privilege of the children of God to come to God and get revelation. … God is not a respecter of persons; we all have the same privilege.”14

“We believe that we have a right to revelations, visions, and dreams from God, our heavenly Father; and light and intelligence, through the gift of the Holy Ghost, in the name of Jesus Christ, on all subjects pertaining to our spiritual welfare; if it so be that we keep his commandments, so as to render ourselves worthy in his sight.”15

“A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.”16

“I have an old edition of the New Testament in the Latin, Hebrew, German and Greek languages. … I thank God that I have got this old book; but I thank him more for the gift of the Holy Ghost. I have got the oldest book in the world; but I have got the oldest book in my heart, even the gift of the Holy Ghost. … The Holy Ghost … is within me, and comprehends more than all the world; and I will associate myself with him.”17

“No man can receive the Holy Ghost without receiving revelations. The Holy Ghost is a revelator.”18

John Taylor, while serving as President of the Quorum of the Twelve, reported: “I well remember a remark that Joseph Smith made to me upwards of forty years ago. Said he, ‘Elder Taylor, you have been baptized, you have had hands laid upon your head for the reception of the Holy Ghost, and you have been ordained to the holy priesthood. Now, if you will continue to follow the leadings of that spirit, it will always lead you right. Sometimes it might be contrary to your judgment; never mind that, follow its dictates; and if you be true to its whisperings it will in time become in you a principle of revelation so that you will know all things.’”19

[brlenox]

Brianox, I would discourage you from diminishing... the significance of receiving the BoF & H.G.

If you myself or anyone wants not to be burned and hewn down at the Lord's coming-- we would do well to receive the purifying sanctifying---- revelatory power that comes from the baptism of fire and reception of the Holy Ghost...

Please kindly do me a favor and show me where I have diminished from the significance of the baptism of fire. However, if you wish I can show you where others have diminished from the sacred role of apostles and prophets to also contribute to the proper guidance of God's children. That by the way is the subject of the OP and the focus of my comments. The baptism of fire is a different experience and not the subject of this OP. It may be that you are confusing something but I am not sure how or what.

[diligently seeking]

It depends on the day for how I’m perceived.

I was wondering if you had read the Nephi slaying Laban scenario as that might give you pause to reconsider how it is that we are commonly lead by the spirit and as Nephi was. It is a bit different that you seem to understand it to be...but I agree with everything you said. :%:

Yes, I noticed the spirit mentioned many times. Nephi’s story is about following the spirit to greater spiritual experiences. Do you really want to deny personal revelation?

Tis tragic...you seem so busy being defensive that you won't even try to see if there is something more, something of greater illumination that might expand your understandings of how the Lord does things.

Nonetheless, what you are missing is that the Holy Ghost reminded Nephi of a second witness to what he was being lead to do. He reminded Nephi of this concept in Exodus:

Exodus 21:13

12 ¶ He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.

If you study out the discourse of Nephi you will note that the above phrase is referenced 3 times in the dialogue between Nephi and the spirit. It is this process of receiving his second witness from scripture that eliminates his concerns and persuades him to follow the voice of the spirit. He is not left to only rely on the spirit to whisper things into his ears, but he brings to his remembrance the scriptures and the voice of the prophet Moses - a second witness. Now with these two witnesses, the scriptures and the guidance of the Holy Ghost he is persuaded to act.

What so commonly is misunderstood is that no one is wise to rely on one witness. That is how one is deceived by the whisperings of false spirits because people do not understand what is a legitimate process of communication from the Lord for scenarios of this type. Thus whenever you receive inspiration but it is in opposition to the scriptures or the words of apostles and prophets you can surely know that you are in the cross hairs of a deceiving spirit. Thus when I see someone a bit reluctant to acknowledge the great worth and value of apostles and prophets and those bent on emphasizing their imperfections and potential for error then I realize that they have taken a false spirit for their guide and if they do not grow to understand properly will follow that spirit right on out of the church...and perhaps even to a vegan restaurant...

My question then is does this perspective make sense to you? Can you see the validity of why I might find some occasion with certain of your observations and why I sought for further specific response to particular elements of the scriptures. In an attempt to understand you correctly, I was hoping to gain that clarification through dialogue - you have made that effort difficult by being so defensive but hopefully I have allayed your fears and we can simply discuss to our mutual and full understanding.

Do you suppose Nephi being led by the spirit not knowing beforehand what he should do--- was more than just the affect of whisperings in his ear that gave him the confidence to act on the admonishen to slay Laban?

[brlenox]

Do you suppose Nephi being led by the spirit not knowing beforehand what he should do--- was more than just the affect of whisperings in his ear that gave him the confidence to act on the admonishen to slay Laban?

Jared - we will spin in circles for ever if you brush past the question I asked and introduce completely new material in avoidance. Please backup one post and lets deal with the conversation you instigated in the first place and my response to that. Then we might make some headway.

[diligently seeking]

Brianox, I would discourage you from diminishing... the significance of receiving the BoF & H.G.

If you myself or anyone wants not to be burned and hewn down at the Lord's coming-- we would do well to receive the purifying sanctifying---- revelatory power that comes from the baptism of fire and reception of the Holy Ghost...

Please kindly do me a favor and show me where I have diminished from the significance of the baptism of fire. However, if you wish I can show you where others have diminished from the sacred role of apostles and prophets to also contribute to the proper guidance of God's children. That by the way is the subject of the OP and the focus of my comments. The baptism of fire is a different experience and not the subject of this OP. It may be that you are confusing something but I am not sure how or what.

Respectfully I tell you that you got this / understanding will come to you. No need for me to show you the way. However, I remphasize my encouragement for you to be careful and fix where you should...

[brlenox]

Brianox, I would discourage you from diminishing... the significance of receiving the BoF & H.G.

If you myself or anyone wants not to be burned and hewn down at the Lord's coming-- we would do well to receive the purifying sanctifying---- revelatory power that comes from the baptism of fire and reception of the Holy Ghost...

Please kindly do me a favor and show me where I have diminished from the significance of the baptism of fire. However, if you wish I can show you where others have diminished from the sacred role of apostles and prophets to also contribute to the proper guidance of God's children. That by the way is the subject of the OP and the focus of my comments. The baptism of fire is a different experience and not the subject of this OP. It may be that you are confusing something but I am not sure how or what.

Respectfully I tell you that you got this / understanding will come to you. No need for me to show you the way. However, I remphasize my encouragement for you to be careful and fix where you should...

What?

[diligently seeking]

Do you suppose Nephi being led by the spirit not knowing beforehand what he should do--- was more than just the affect of whisperings in his ear that gave him the confidence to act on the admonishen to slay Laban?

Jared - we will spin in circles for ever if you brush past the question I asked and introduce completely new material in avoidance. Please backup one post and lets deal with the conversation you instigated in the first place and my response to that. Then we might make some headway.

Those be the terms, huh?

Good night my brother. Enjoy your Sabbath.

[brlenox]

Do you suppose Nephi being led by the spirit not knowing beforehand what he should do--- was more than just the affect of whisperings in his ear that gave him the confidence to act on the admonishen to slay Laban?

Jared - we will spin in circles for ever if you brush past the question I asked and introduce completely new material in avoidance. Please backup one post and lets deal with the conversation you instigated in the first place and my response to that. Then we might make some headway.

Those be the terms, huh?

Good night my brother. Enjoy your Sabbath.

You are more enigmatic than an Egyptian Sphinx and with more perplexing riddles to boot.

[Ezra]

From Ezra from a past post, I think it's relevant.

I was thinking the other day what it ment to follow the prophet. And had a little vision pop in my head of.

Diffrent People Walking a Forested narrow path following the prophet. One at a time following the prophet. Walking over limbs and rocks and other obsticals.

Some would walk so close all the could see was his back. Some would only focus on his foot steps and place there foot exactly in his foot print. And some would follow a few paces back looking around at the Forest and birds and the natural beauty. Yet watching where the prophet was taking them.

With each type of follower the prophet tripped on a branch.

The ones that followed so close fell on top the prophet.

The one that walked in the exact foot print saw him trip and followed suit knowingly.

The one who was a few steps back looking at nature and where they were going walked around the branch and helped the prophet up and then again fell back into following.

It came to my understanding that he nature watching follower could have lead the hike. As he knew the trail and could read the signs. But allowed his elder the right and would continue to help when he could.



To me that is how we should follow the prophet.
No blindly. Not without thinking for ourselfs. But with our eyes wide open. Our leader will err from time to time as is human nature. We don't need to follow suit. Yet it's not our place to lead tell God calls us to.
Each type of follower still has to do the walking himselfs.
The prophet cannot gain us our salvation. Some will fall when and were those who lead do.
Others will be there to lift them back up who had their eyes open and know the path themselfs.
In essance have made the path their own. One with the prophets one with God. One and the same.

But even walking on the path we can trip.
God is not going to remove all those obsticals for the prophet.
That would be taking away his agency.

I think this quote goes hand in hand with that.

We have heard men who had the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them, if they knew it was wrong. But such obedience as this is worse than folly to us. It is slavery in the extreme, and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turned from his folly. Others in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their presidents they should do it without asking any questions. When the elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with.

Joseph smith jr.
Millennial star volume 14 section 38 page 594-595


Thoughts??

Wow I should have proof read that before posting it.

[Michelle]

Just to clarify, I never denied the importance of personal revelation or the Holy Ghost. But both must be kept in their place. Personal revelation is restrained by stewardship. They are both restrained by the fact that God is not confusion. Personal revelation and the Holy Ghost do not contradict the words of the prophets and apostles and scriptures, but confirm the truth of them.

I definitely see plenty of members who act without understanding because they obey the words of some without the confirmation and understanding of the Spirit, but once the Lord has confirmed through the Holy Ghost that the prophet is the prophet, I do not expect him to speak amiss concerning doctrine or direction. My praying for a confirmation of his words is simply to gain my own testimony, so that when confronted I am able to say "I know" not just "the prophet said." It means that if called to defend doctrine or direction from a prophet under threat of persecution, I have the strength of my own testimony to bear me up.

[Rose Garden]

I am a prophetess. I speak the words of the Lord. If you don't listen to the voice of the Lord through me, you will burn in the day of the Lord.

Just thought I'd let you all know.

[Arenera]

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."

1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

[brlenox]

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."

1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

My apologies, if it appears I am being obtuse but capitalizing scripture does not make it clear what your stance is. I do not know any better now what your position is than I did before. I know you can explain yourself as you have done well in the past but for some reason I feel as if I am failing in my skills of clairvoyance in my utter inability to read your mind.

[Arenera]

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."

1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

My apologies, if it appears I am being obtuse but capitalizing scripture does not make it clear what your stance is. I do not know any better now what your position is than I did before. I know you can explain yourself as you have done well in the past but for some reason I feel as if I am failing in my skills of clairvoyance in my utter inability to read your mind.

We are good at doing the procedural work. There is the lesser portion of the word, not the greater portion of the word. We have the priesthood, but do we have the power? President Nelson suggested we don’t have the power necessary for the future.

You used the example of Nephi and Laban. Nephi followed the Spirit of Christ, not knowing before hand what to do. The Spirit commanded Nephi to cut off Laban’s head. This was against the law that Nephi knew, so he questioned. The Holy Ghost then explained why.

Nephi was able to have this experience because he had been baptized by fire, or born again (see 1N2:16+).

If we are satisfied with the lesser portion, or Light of Christ, and never get to the Holy Ghost or baptism of fire, then we miss out on the greater portion.

Following the prophet can keep you safe but also dependent on following man, I suggest this is the lesser portion. Following Christ, or the voice of the Lord, gets you on the greater portion. This is what happened with Nephi and others in the Book of Mormon. We need to rend the veil of unbelief.

[brlenox]

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."

1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

My apologies, if it appears I am being obtuse but capitalizing scripture does not make it clear what your stance is. I do not know any better now what your position is than I did before. I know you can explain yourself as you have done well in the past but for some reason I feel as if I am failing in my skills of clairvoyance in my utter inability to read your mind.

We are good at doing the procedural work. There is the lesser portion of the word, not the greater portion of the word. We have the priesthood, but do we have the power? President Nelson suggested we don’t have the power necessary for the future.

You used the example of Nephi and Laban. Nephi followed the Spirit of Christ, not knowing before hand what to do. The Spirit commanded Nephi to cut off Laban’s head. This was against the law that Nephi knew, so he questioned. The Holy Ghost then explained why.

Nephi was able to have this experience because he had been baptized by fire, or born again (see 1N2:16+).

If we are satisfied with the lesser portion, or Light of Christ, and never get to the Holy Ghost or baptism of fire, then we miss out on the greater portion.

Following the prophet can keep you safe but also dependent on following man, I suggest this is the lesser portion. Following Christ, or the voice of the Lord, gets you on the greater portion. This is what happened with Nephi and others in the Book of Mormon. We need to rend the veil of unbelief.

Very good and this I can work with. Your final statement is egregiously incorrect and where you go astray in understanding. Your observation that following the prophet is a lesser portion is a sentiment that has originated with Satan and apostates to step away from allowing the Apostles and prophets to function in your life according to their role as the leaders of the church. I politely request that you find me anywhere, any quote, any authoritative source what so ever that ever intimates that as a truth. It does not exist and you will never find such.

You will find significant support for the great and necessary value of the baptism of fire. However, to extrapolate from that that it means we no longer have the same need for the apostles and prophets is a logical misstep. It may appear to you to make sense where you are simply self-affirming truth but it is not a confirmable truth from the word of God. It is only your perception of truth since you cannot validate it against the means God has ordained.

Neither is the Light if Christ a lessor portion, without it the order of the universe would cease. It will always function in the same fashion it always has in your life and it is a great blessing. It does not do all that the Holy Ghost might do but it is a different tool for a different use.

Now interestingly you are in the cross roads of the exact same dilemma that Nephi is in as he stands over Laben contemplating his demise.

Now please follow with me and separate yourself from your sense of umbrage for my multitudes of imperfections and just try to detect the truth of what I am going to illustrate. Let's look at the exchange between Nephi and the Holy Ghost:

1 Nephi 4:10-17

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.

16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

We've got the things sourced from:

The spirit in Green and
From Nephi in blue and then
Second witness in a delightful pink

Review: Nephi all alone is having a dialogue with himself and the spirit. Nephi has vowed to keep the commandments of God. Nephi thinking to himself says he has never killed another man. Why? ... Well at least in part because it is a commandment to not go around lopping off peoples heads because if you do something happens - they die. Nephi has stated his mind that this commandment to not kill is making him draw back from the task at hand of killing Laben and RIGHTLY SO. Nephi has a voice in his head telling him to do something and that something is against the commandments as he understands it at this moment.

Now we have Nephi in a conundrum and at this moment he has a voice in his head telling him to do something wrong - He wisely acknowledges by his behavior that he better be careful here.

However, the voice, brings to his memory something. That is what the Holy Ghost does - it brings things to our memory which of course it can only do if we first put it into our memory by study. The phrase the Holy Ghost uses is "the lord has delivered him into your hands." When you read scripture you are supposed to recognize that this is very significant as this very phrase is used three times in this little dialogue with Nephi and the Holy Ghost. So we are supposed to do more research to find out why is this phrase being repeated over and over and why is this is significant to Nephi. Why would the Holy Ghost use that phrase to motivate Nephi. Nephi has stated that his big concern here is that I don't kill people because he knows that violates a commandment and Nephi will not violate a commandment and become a murderer.

So how is this phrase,"the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands" which the Holy Ghost repeats again in the next verse, persuasive to Nephi. Why should it be persuasive to Nephi. Do you know? Neither did I the first 10 times I read this account but one day the spirit tapped me on the shoulder and said you should resolve this question...so I did. Here is what I found by researching the phrase which was repeated three times:

Exodus 21:13

12 ¶ He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.

Notice how this verse completely address Nephi's concerns and identifies his situation. Verse 12 identifies Nephi's concern and this is what he has been saying to this voice in his head - If I kill I have violated a commandment to not kill. Nephi knows this because he has studied scripture and is aware of the commandments of God. But now this voice has reminded him of something and it has to do with a legitimate means of identifying when the Lord will permit an exception to the rule of murder and a death sentence. The exception fits Nephi's situation exactly. Nephi was not looking to harm Laban, he was not hiding to take him unawares but instead the Lord delivered him into his hands and the spirit has brought his mind back to this recollection so that he can understand how it is that he can kill Laben and not be breaking a commandment of the Lord. And even more remarkable is Nephi already has the place to flee to - a place where he family is in the wilderness but even more fulfilling is the fact they have been appointed to a promised land which he is attempting to get to but the Lords wants the plates to accompany his children. Even more significant is that the spirit has completely changed the dynamic of the conversation. If the Lord delivers someone into your hands then the Lord has altered the commandment and the commandment now becomes "as my servant" I command you to kill Laban whom I have delivered into your hands so that you can keep my commandments to get the plates. Because if the Lord has delivered someone into your hands don't think you can walk away and just ignore what is happening. You are being given a command and now Nephi knows that he can keep the commandments of God and that he has agreed to do so and this will not make him a punishable murderer of evil intent.

Thus the voice in his head has followed the patterns of God. Nephi needs another witness to make sure what is being asked is right. The voice now ceases to be just any voice which it could be another spirit trying to deceive him. It is now confirmed as the spirit because it has read the thoughts of his mind and answered the legitimate question of Nephi's concern about becoming a murderer by giving him a second witness in the scriptures which confirm precisely the situation he is currently involved in.

So as you have observed Nephi is an excellent example how to be guided of the Lord. However, it is not by just taking a voice in his head and following it along willy nilly - "whatever the voices in my head tell me to do - that I must do"...It is because he followed the words of the prophet Moses who provided the scriptures that confirmed and answered the rightful questions he should have been asking. The scriptures and the words of apostles and prophets and the guidance from the Holy Ghost are not to be considered separately or as one superior to another. Each one has it's primary use but overall they are a means the Lord has provided so that we can prevent deception in our lives by cross referencing our inspiration / revelation with confirming witnesses. If one does not they will be led astray. Yet in truth most people never study the scriptures enough to recognize these lessons such as what Nephi was actually teaching here, so that the spirit can even bring it to their minds...they have no point of reference and so on that point they can also fail.

Now will you do as well as Nephi did? This is the crossroads of where you stand and the result of your choice is equally as significant to you personally as was Nephi's to him. Will you seek a second witness from scripture and or apostles and prophets for your observations that as you a state, "Following the prophet can keep you safe but also dependent on following man, I suggest this is the lesser portion." And if you do not find it will you wisely cease to blindly follow that particular voice in your head and demand it provide for you a second LEGITIMATE witness because you have that right as the Lord states "at the mouth of two or three witnesses will my word be established". He never demands you follow the voice of a single witness but will always establish his word. Think on it.

Now the precise point that I am looking for you to validate is that it is a lessor portion or that somehow apostles and prophets are inferior to the Holy Ghost. Each has its role and purpose and if we are not to be led astray we must learn and apply the lessons of God and of Nephi to discern such.

[Michelle]

1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

My apologies, if it appears I am being obtuse but capitalizing scripture does not make it clear what your stance is. I do not know any better now what your position is than I did before. I know you can explain yourself as you have done well in the past but for some reason I feel as if I am failing in my skills of clairvoyance in my utter inability to read your mind.

We are good at doing the procedural work. There is the lesser portion of the word, not the greater portion of the word. We have the priesthood, but do we have the power? President Nelson suggested we don’t have the power necessary for the future.

You used the example of Nephi and Laban. Nephi followed the Spirit of Christ, not knowing before hand what to do. The Spirit commanded Nephi to cut off Laban’s head. This was against the law that Nephi knew, so he questioned. The Holy Ghost then explained why.

Nephi was able to have this experience because he had been baptized by fire, or born again (see 1N2:16+).

If we are satisfied with the lesser portion, or Light of Christ, and never get to the Holy Ghost or baptism of fire, then we miss out on the greater portion.

Following the prophet can keep you safe but also dependent on following man, I suggest this is the lesser portion. Following Christ, or the voice of the Lord, gets you on the greater portion. This is what happened with Nephi and others in the Book of Mormon. We need to rend the veil of unbelief.

Very good and this I can work with. Your final statement is egregiously incorrect and where you go astray in understanding. Your observation that following the prophet is a lesser portion is a sentiment that has originated with Satan and apostates to step away from allowing the Apostles and prophets to function in your life according to their role as the leaders of the church. I politely request that you find me anywhere, any quote, any authoritative source what so ever that ever intimates that as a truth. It does not exist and you will never find such.

You will find significant support for the great and necessary value of the baptism of fire. However, to extrapolate from that that it means we no longer have the same need for the apostles and prophets is a logical misstep. It may appear to you to make sense where you are simply self-affirming truth but it is not a confirmable truth from the word of God. It is only your perception of truth since you cannot validate it against the means God has ordained.

Neither is the Light if Christ a lessor portion, without it the order of the universe would cease. It will always function in the same fashion it always has in your life and it is a great blessing. It does not do all that the Holy Ghost might do but it is a different tool for a different use.

Now interestingly you are in the cross roads of the exact same dilemma that Nephi is in as he stands over Laben contemplating his demise.

Now please follow with me and separate yourself from your sense of umbrage for my multitudes of imperfections and just try to detect the truth of what I am going to illustrate. Let's look at the exchange between Nephi and the Holy Ghost:

1 Nephi 4:10-17

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.

16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

We've got the things sourced from:

The spirit in Green and
From Nephi in blue and then
Second witness in a delightful pink

Review: Nephi all alone is having a dialogue with himself and the spirit. Nephi has vowed to keep the commandments of God. Nephi thinking to himself says he has never killed another man. Why? ... Well at least in part because it is a commandment to not go around lopping off peoples heads because if you do something happens - they die. Nephi has stated his mind that this commandment to not kill is making him draw back from the task at hand of killing Laben and RIGHTLY SO. Nephi has a voice in his head telling him to do something and that something is against the commandments as he understands it at this moment.

Now we have Nephi in a conundrum and at this moment he has a voice in his head telling him to do something wrong - He wisely acknowledges by his behavior that he better be careful here.

However, the voice, brings to his memory something. That is what the Holy Ghost does - it brings things to our memory which of course it can only do if we first put it into our memory by study. The phrase the Holy Ghost uses is "the lord has delivered him into your hands." When you read scripture you are supposed to recognize that this is very significant as this very phrase is used three times in this little dialogue with Nephi and the Holy Ghost. So we are supposed to do more research to find out why is this phrase being repeated over and over and why is this is significant to Nephi. Why would the Holy Ghost use that phrase to motivate Nephi. Nephi has stated that his big concern here is that I don't kill people because he knows that violates a commandment and Nephi will not violate a commandment and become a murderer.

So how is this phrase,"the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands" which the Holy Ghost repeats again in the next verse, persuasive to Nephi. Why should it be persuasive to Nephi. Do you know? Neither did I the first 10 times I read this account but one day the spirit tapped me on the shoulder and said you should resolve this question...so I did. Here is what I found by researching the phrase which was repeated three times:

Exodus 21:13

12 ¶ He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.

Notice how this verse completely address Nephi's concerns and identifies his situation. Verse 12 identifies Nephi's concern and this is what he has been saying to this voice in his head - If I kill I have violated a commandment to not kill. Nephi knows this because he has studied scripture and is aware of the commandments of God. But now this voice has reminded him of something and it has to do with a legitimate means of identifying when the Lord will permit an exception to the rule of murder and a death sentence. The exception fits Nephi's situation exactly. Nephi was not looking to harm Laban, he was not hiding to take him unawares but instead the Lord delivered him into his hands and the spirit has been bring his mind back to this recollection so that he can understand how it is that he can kill Laben and not be breaking a commandment of the Lord. And even more remarkable is Nephi already has the place to flee to - a place where he family is in the wilderness but even more fulfilling is the fact they have been appointed to a promised land which he is attempting to get to but the Lords wants the plates to accompany his children. Even more significant is that the spirit has completely changed the dynamic of the conversation. If the Lord delivers someone into your hands then the Lord has altered the commandment and the commandment now becomes "as my servant" I command you to kill Laban whom I have delivered into your hands so that you can keep my commandments to get the plates. Because if the Lord has delivered someone into your hands don't think you can walk away and just ignore what is happening. You are being given a command and now Nephi knows that he can keep the commandments of God and that he has agreed to do so and this will not make him a punishable murderer of evil intent.

Thus the voice in his head has followed the patterns of God. Nephi needs another witness to make sure what is being asked is right. The voice now ceases to be just any voice which it could be another spirit trying to deceive him. It is now confirmed as the spirit because it has read the thoughts of his mind and answered the legitimate question of Nephi's concern about becoming a murderer by giving him a second witness in the scriptures which confirm precisely the situation he is currently involved in.

So as you have observed Nephi is an excellent example how to be guided of the Lord. However, it is not by just taking a voice in his head and following it along willy nilly - "whatever the voices in my head tell me to do - that I must do"...It is because he followed the words of the prophet Moses who provided the scriptures that confirmed and answered the rightful questions he should have been asking. The scriptures and the words of apostles and prophets and the guidance from the Holy Ghost are not to be considered separately or as one superior to another. Each one has it's primary use but overall they are a means the Lord has provided so that we can prevent deception in our lives by cross referencing our inspiration / revelation with confirming witnesses. If one does not they will be led astray. Yet in truth most people never study the scriptures enough to recognize these lessons such as what Nephi was actually teaching here, so that the spirit can even bring it to their minds...they have no point of reference and so on that point they can also fail.

Now will you do as well as Nephi did? This is the crossroads of where you stand and the result of your choice is equally as significant to you personally as was Nephi's to him. Will you seek a second witness from scripture and or apostles and prophets for your observations that as you a state, "Following the prophet can keep you safe but also dependent on following man, I suggest this is the lesser portion." And if you do not find it will you wisely cease to blindly follow that particular voice in your head and demand it provide for you a second LEGITIMATE witness because you have that right as the Lord states "at the mouth of two or three witnesses will my word be established". He never demands you follow the voice of a single witness but will always establish his word. Think on it.

Now the precise point that I am looking for you to validate is that it is a lessor portion or that somehow apostles and prophets are inferior to the Holy Ghost. Each has its role and purpose and if we are not to be led astray we must learn and apply the lessons of God and of Nephi to discern such.

That was perfect!

I sure hope she reads this. I feel like I have, not nearly as meticulously as you, tried to share this principle so many times both on this site and in real life. I don't know why people don't realize that there must be multiple witnesses to know for sure that one is on safe ground. The witnesses being the prophets, the scriptures and the Holy Ghost.

In my head I see it this way: if you nail a board with one nail, it may spin around. If you nail it with two, it is more sure, but can wiggle. Nail it with three and it is very secure and probably cannot be removed unless you intend to do so.

God does not contradict himself, but if we haven't already studied the scriptures and the words of the prophets we are left to wonder if it is really the Spirit speaking, or worse to assume it is the Holy Spirit when it is in fact a "familiar spirit."

[Arenera]

We are good at doing the procedural work. There is the lesser portion of the word, not the greater portion of the word. We have the priesthood, but do we have the power? President Nelson suggested we don’t have the power necessary for the future.

You used the example of Nephi and Laban. Nephi followed the Spirit of Christ, not knowing before hand what to do. The Spirit commanded Nephi to cut off Laban’s head. This was against the law that Nephi knew, so he questioned. The Holy Ghost then explained why.

Nephi was able to have this experience because he had been baptized by fire, or born again (see 1N2:16+).

If we are satisfied with the lesser portion, or Light of Christ, and never get to the Holy Ghost or baptism of fire, then we miss out on the greater portion.

Following the prophet can keep you safe but also dependent on following man, I suggest this is the lesser portion. Following Christ, or the voice of the Lord, gets you on the greater portion. This is what happened with Nephi and others in the Book of Mormon. We need to rend the veil of unbelief.

1 Nephi 4:10-17
14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

We've got the things sourced from:

The spirit in Green and
From Nephi in blue and then
Second witness in a delightful pink

That was perfect!

I sure hope she reads this.

Michelle started with this scripture:

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."

"They who will not hear the voice of the Lord." What does this mean? I take it literally, not hearing the voice of Christ.

brlenox used the story of Nephi and Laban and gave some good information. Yet there is more to this story.

Why was Nephi able to get the plates?

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers.

Nephi was baptized by fire. His heart was softened. He believed all the words from Lehi. But that isn't all.

I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness

Nephi heard the voice of the Lord. It gave him knowledge. Unlike his brothers, Nephi had inquired of the Lord and had received. Nephi was on the greater portion path.

Now let's look at our day. When Elder Nelson gave his talk in priesthood, April 2016, did you pick up on what he said? I think brienox did. Maybe a handful of us? How many have acted on it? Even less?

I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others.

For developing spiritual gifts:

So I ask, how would our family members, friends, and coworkers say you and I are doing in developing these and other spiritual gifts?12 The more those attributes are developed, the greater will be our priesthood power.

As far as prayer, Elder Nelson said:

How else can we increase our power in the priesthood? We need to pray from our hearts. Polite recitations of past and upcoming activities, punctuated with some requests for blessings, cannot constitute the kind of communing with God that brings enduring power. Are you willing to pray to know how to pray for more power? The Lord will teach you.

As far as reading the scriptures:

Are you willing to search the scriptures and feast on the words of Christ—to study earnestly in order to have more power? If you want to see your wife’s heart melt, let her find you on the Internet studying the doctrine of Christ or reading your scriptures!

What is the Doctrine of Christ?

2 Wherefore, the things which I have written sufficeth me, save it be a few words which I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ; wherefore, I shall speak unto you plainly, according to the plainness of my prophesying.

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life;

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

Nephi is a great example of what Elder Nelson asks us to do. Listen to the Voice of the Lord.

[brlenox]

We are good at doing the procedural work. There is the lesser portion of the word, not the greater portion of the word. We have the priesthood, but do we have the power? President Nelson suggested we don’t have the power necessary for the future.

You used the example of Nephi and Laban. Nephi followed the Spirit of Christ, not knowing before hand what to do. The Spirit commanded Nephi to cut off Laban’s head. This was against the law that Nephi knew, so he questioned. The Holy Ghost then explained why.

Nephi was able to have this experience because he had been baptized by fire, or born again (see 1N2:16+).

If we are satisfied with the lesser portion, or Light of Christ, and never get to the Holy Ghost or baptism of fire, then we miss out on the greater portion.

Following the prophet can keep you safe but also dependent on following man, I suggest this is the lesser portion. Following Christ, or the voice of the Lord, gets you on the greater portion. This is what happened with Nephi and others in the Book of Mormon. We need to rend the veil of unbelief.

That was perfect!

I sure hope she reads this.

Michelle started with this scripture:

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."

"They who will not hear the voice of the Lord." What does this mean? I take it literally, not hearing the voice of Christ.

brlenox used the story of Nephi and Laban and gave some good information. Yet there is more to this story.

Why was Nephi able to get the plates?

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers.

Nephi was baptized by fire. His heart was softened. He believed all the words from Lehi. But that isn't all.

I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness

Nephi heard the voice of the Lord. It gave him knowledge. Unlike his brothers, Nephi had inquired of the Lord and had received. Nephi was on the greater portion path.

Now let's look at our day. When Elder Nelson gave his talk in priesthood, April 2016, did you pick up on what he said? I think brienox did. Maybe a handful of us? How many have acted on it? Even less?

I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others.

For developing spiritual gifts:

So I ask, how would our family members, friends, and coworkers say you and I are doing in developing these and other spiritual gifts?12 The more those attributes are developed, the greater will be our priesthood power.

As far as prayer, Elder Nelson said:

How else can we increase our power in the priesthood? We need to pray from our hearts. Polite recitations of past and upcoming activities, punctuated with some requests for blessings, cannot constitute the kind of communing with God that brings enduring power. Are you willing to pray to know how to pray for more power? The Lord will teach you.

As far as reading the scriptures:

Are you willing to search the scriptures and feast on the words of Christ—to study earnestly in order to have more power? If you want to see your wife’s heart melt, let her find you on the Internet studying the doctrine of Christ or reading your scriptures!

What is the Doctrine of Christ?

2 Wherefore, the things which I have written sufficeth me, save it be a few words which I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ; wherefore, I shall speak unto you plainly, according to the plainness of my prophesying.

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life;

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

Nephi is a great example of what Elder Nelson asks us to do. Listen to the Voice of the Lord.

Well, at this point, I need to just leave this be. I have clearly stated my case for Nephi and how the Lord validates his commands and his voice with witnesses. I look at your response and it is a good response but it has that feel of dancing around the specifics of understanding that apostles and prophets should not be relegated to a secondary status and as that is the specific point of discussion it is disconcerting how deftly you step around the focus into other tangents. Still you have not addressed the apostles and prophets ideology at all in your response.

Few probably have read the Elder Nelson talk more times than I have. Fewer still have probably been blessed to actually observe his promises in that talk bear fruit as I have sought what he has instructed us to seek. The funny thing is that you seem to separate Elder Nelson's message into two sources - his voice and the Saviors voice - and based on D & C 1 which Michelle based the OP on, I know that Elder Nelson would sustain my thoughts here that in that talk Elder Nelson is the voice of the Lord - ie. "from my own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same." Yes, I believe he is encouraging further effort into study and prayer and seeking further counsel from the Lord but as an extension of Elder Nelson's role as His voice and not as if they are two different sources.

I am not sure how something can be the same and then also be a lessor portion as you describe the words of the apostles and prophets. By your response here neither can I tell if you still hold that perspective.

I'll be candid at this point. I do see in you someone who very often gets it right. You tend to support correct theology in many cases. However, I have observed several who have participated on this forum and I have watched as they drifted off into dangerous theology. However to a fault it always develops into a minimization of the words of the Prophets and Apostles. Of those that I have seen fall out of the church I have only seen three make it back. However, there are other patterns and I see some of them creeping into your material. In fact how you responded to this post is classic fallback to material that is not quite what is being discussed but is within the boundaries as a feint or diversion to make it appear all is well when the actual topic is not precisely what you sent back. For some reason you cannot sustain the prophets and apostles with the same level of understanding and commitment as you do seeking the "voice of the Lord." You have separated Christ's own words of unity of his voice and the voice of the prophets and the apostles into two distinct and separate parts and now you seem to have begun to place differing merits on these two parts that you have created - one is better than the other and more desirable in your mind. It is entirely possible that if this process continues in progression as I have so often seen it go that in a few years your slight ambivalence towards the apostles and prophets will morph into disdain and distrust.

I put a couple of three or four hours into the previous post and illustrated a point you still have not acknowledged concerning the nature of revelation. I do not do that for my health. I do it because I hate to see the good ones such as yourself get trapped into the process of deception that eventually leads them away. Perhaps that will not be the case and you will recover your sense of confidence in the Apostles and prophets. It is my hope that you do. Best of luck.

[Mark]

We are good at doing the procedural work. There is the lesser portion of the word, not the greater portion of the word. We have the priesthood, but do we have the power? President Nelson suggested we don’t have the power necessary for the future.

You used the example of Nephi and Laban. Nephi followed the Spirit of Christ, not knowing before hand what to do. The Spirit commanded Nephi to cut off Laban’s head. This was against the law that Nephi knew, so he questioned. The Holy Ghost then explained why.

Nephi was able to have this experience because he had been baptized by fire, or born again (see 1N2:16+).

If we are satisfied with the lesser portion, or Light of Christ, and never get to the Holy Ghost or baptism of fire, then we miss out on the greater portion.

Following the prophet can keep you safe but also dependent on following man, I suggest this is the lesser portion. Following Christ, or the voice of the Lord, gets you on the greater portion. This is what happened with Nephi and others in the Book of Mormon. We need to rend the veil of unbelief.

That was perfect!

I sure hope she reads this.

Michelle started with this scripture:

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14-16

"14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god,. . ."

"They who will not hear the voice of the Lord." What does this mean? I take it literally, not hearing the voice of Christ.

brlenox used the story of Nephi and Laban and gave some good information. Yet there is more to this story.

Why was Nephi able to get the plates?

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers.

Nephi was baptized by fire. His heart was softened. He believed all the words from Lehi. But that isn't all.

I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness

Nephi heard the voice of the Lord. It gave him knowledge. Unlike his brothers, Nephi had inquired of the Lord and had received. Nephi was on the greater portion path.

Now let's look at our day. When Elder Nelson gave his talk in priesthood, April 2016, did you pick up on what he said? I think brienox did. Maybe a handful of us? How many have acted on it? Even less?

I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others.

For developing spiritual gifts:

So I ask, how would our family members, friends, and coworkers say you and I are doing in developing these and other spiritual gifts?12 The more those attributes are developed, the greater will be our priesthood power.

As far as prayer, Elder Nelson said:

How else can we increase our power in the priesthood? We need to pray from our hearts. Polite recitations of past and upcoming activities, punctuated with some requests for blessings, cannot constitute the kind of communing with God that brings enduring power. Are you willing to pray to know how to pray for more power? The Lord will teach you.

As far as reading the scriptures:

Are you willing to search the scriptures and feast on the words of Christ—to study earnestly in order to have more power? If you want to see your wife’s heart melt, let her find you on the Internet studying the doctrine of Christ or reading your scriptures!

What is the Doctrine of Christ?

2 Wherefore, the things which I have written sufficeth me, save it be a few words which I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ; wherefore, I shall speak unto you plainly, according to the plainness of my prophesying.

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life;

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

Nephi is a great example of what Elder Nelson asks us to do. Listen to the Voice of the Lord.

Well, at this point, I need to just leave this be. I have clearly stated my case for Nephi and how the Lord validates his commands and his voice with witnesses. I look at your response and it is a good response but it has that feel of dancing around the specifics of understanding that apostles and prophets should not be relegated to a secondary status and as that is the specific point of discussion. Still you have not addressed that at all in your response.

Few probably have read the Elder Nelson talk more times than I have. Fewer still have probably been blessed to actually observe his promises in that talk bear fruit as I have sought what he has instructed us to seek. The funny thing is that where you seem to separate what Elder Nelson stated into his comments about hearing the voice of the Lord and based on D & C 1 which Michelle based the OP on I know that Elder Nelson would sustain my thoughts here that in that talk Elder Nelson is the voice of the Lord - ie. whether from my own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same.

I am not sure how something can be the same and then also be a lessor portion as you describe the words of the apostles and prophets. By your response here neither can I tell if you still hold that perspective.

I'll be candid at this point. I do see in you someone who very often gets it right. You tend to support correct theology in many cases. However, I have observed several who have participated on this forum and I have watched as they drifted off into dangerous theology. However to a fault it always develops into a minimization of the words of the Prophets and Apostles. Of those that I have seen fall out of the church I have only seen three make it back. However, there are other patterns and I see some of them creeping into your material. In fact how you responded to this post is classic fallback to material that is not quite what is being discussed but is within the boundaries as a feint or diversion to make it appear all is well when the actual topic is not precisely what you sent back. For some reason you cannot sustain the prophets and apostles with the same level of understanding and commitment as you do seeking the "voice of the Lord." You have separated Christ's own words of unity of his voice and the voice of the prophets and the apostles into two distinct and separate parts and now you seem to have begun to place differing merits on these two parts that you have created - one is better than the other and more desirable in your mind. It is entirely possible that if this process continues in progression as I have so often seen it go that in a few years your slight ambivalence towards the apostles and prophets will morph into disdain and distrust.

I put a couple of three or four hours into the previous post and illustrated a point you still have not acknowledged concerning the nature of revelation. I do not do that for my health. I do it because I hate to see the good ones such as yourself get trapped into the process of deception that eventually leads them away. Perhaps that will not be the case and you will recover your sense of confidence in the Apostles and prophets. It is my hope that you do. Best of luck.

The scriptures clearly teach us that the word of the Lord is communicated and verified to us thru the instrumentality of multiple witnesses. I have known several people who were sure that they received spiritual confirmations yet it led them away from the path of the Lord because it went against what the living Prophets and the scriptures were unitedly teaching. They discounted or ignored these other witnesses at their own spiritual peril. It is like a 3 legged stool as has been analogized by many. The scriptures along with the words of living Prophets and the confirming voice of the Holy Ghost working together in a United voice constitute pure revelation that comes from the Lord. If all these witnesses are united then deception is avoided. However cut off 1 or 2 legs of the stool and down it goes. The Lord uses this pattern to help his children not get caught in Satans many traps he sets of creating false revelation. Even the very elect can be deceived if they decide to ignore the Lords law of witnesses. It happened to church members multiple times during Joseph's administration and continues to this day.

[Arenera]

Hard headed. Stiff necked. Walking in darkness at noon day.

[drtanner]

Hard headed. Stiff necked. Walking in darkness at noon day.

What are you referring to here? Brelenox?

[Arenera]

Hard headed. Stiff necked. Walking in darkness at noon day.

What are you referring to here? Brelenox?

Yes, and all of us.

[passionflower]

I am a traditional and orthodox person, IMO, but nevertheless I would say along with Steven R Covey that "conformity is not necessarily unity". I have had the experience of being led, no, "pushed" is more like it, to go against what was being said by the Prophet or Apostles ( at the time ). And like MIchelle says, I didn't want to do it. It wasn't my idea at all. This has happened not once, but several times in my life. Why I married my husband, which I tell on the Story Hour, is a case in point.

During his tenure as President of the Church, President Kimball stated there was no such thing as a "soulmate" or anyone we made agreements with to marry before coming to earth and no one should wait to get married in order to find that "right" one. But to the single population he said to get down to business of getting married, and choose a good person and settle down. I agree wholeheartedly with this counsel and for the vast majority of the church this would be true.

Lately both Elder Uchtdorf and Elder Ballard have firmly repeated this same counsel, and in no uncertain terms, to the ever growing single population in the church today. Once again, for the general single person out there, I agree.

But to my chagrin, this wasn't true for me. Both my DH and I were supposed to marry each other, and this coming from some determination in our premortal life. We are both absolutely sure of this and that no matter what, it would have been very very wrong for us to marry anyone else, no matter what.

You can hear stories like this from other couples in the church, too. though perhaps their story is less dramatic than mine. No matter what President Kimball, etc, said, they knew they had to find a certain person to marry, and when they did, they knew he or she was their one and only.

Elder Dallin H Oakes said recently ( and I wish I could remember right now where I read this) that counsel given by the Prophets and Apostles, even in GC, is always to be understood to be directed at the general population of the church. There will always be exceptions out there. And I would like to add these exceptions ARE exceptions and not the rule. It seems that everybody wants to be the "exception" nowadays, and they shouldn't be doing that. If you really believe you are getting impressions or revelations to do something not exactly in accordance with the guidelines of the church, I would be the last person to say that is not possible, but you had better be dang DANG sure that impression is coming from the source you claim it is, and it isn't just something you yourself want to do or want to believe.

[Durzan]

I am a traditional and orthodox person, IMO, but nevertheless I would say along with Steven R Covey that "conformity is not necessarily unity". I have had the experience of being led, no, "pushed" is more like it, to go against what was being said by the Prophet or Apostles ( at the time ). And like MIchelle says, I didn't want to do it. It wasn't my idea at all. This has happened not once, but several times in my life. Why I married my husband, which I tell on the Story Hour, is a case in point.

During his tenure as President of the Church, President Kimball stated there was no such thing as a "soulmate" or anyone we made agreements with to marry before coming to earth and no one should wait to get married in order to find that "right" one. But to the single population he said to get down to business of getting married, and choose a good person and settle down. I agree wholeheartedly with this counsel and for the vast majority of the church this would be true.

Lately both Elder Uchtdorf and Elder Ballard have firmly repeated this same counsel, and in no uncertain terms, to the ever growing single population in the church today. Once again, for the general single person out there, I agree.

But to my chagrin, this wasn't true for me. Both my DH and I were supposed to marry each other, and this coming from some determination in our premortal life. We are both absolutely sure of this and that no matter what, it would have been very very wrong for us to marry anyone else, no matter what.

You can hear stories like this from other couples in the church, too. though perhaps their story is less dramatic than mine. No matter what President Kimball, etc, said, they knew they had to find a certain person to marry, and when they did, they knew he or she was their one and only.

Elder Dallin H Oakes said recently ( and I wish I could remember right now where I read this) that counsel given by the Prophets and Apostles, even in GC, is always to be understood to be directed at the general population of the church. There will always be exceptions out there. And I would like to add these exceptions ARE exceptions and not the rule. It seems that everybody wants to be the "exception" nowadays, and they shouldn't be doing that. If you really believe you are getting impressions or revelations to do something not exactly in accordance with the guidelines of the church, I would be the last person to say that is not possible, but you had better be dang DANG sure that impression is coming from the source you claim it is, and it isn't just something you yourself want to do or want to believe.

Exactly. It is a dangerous path to go against the leadership's council, but sometimes it proves to be neccesary.