A scripture for all who put personal revelation (falsely called) above prophetic counsel

[Michelle]

Personal revelation is personal. It relates to our stewardship. For example, when the Spirit tells me to check on one of my kids who is about to get in trouble, there is nothing in that revelation that contradicts the teachings of the prophets or scriptures or that requires I first check the scriptures. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost that I KNOW that truth.

But when one is speaking of doctrine or prophesying the future, that is revealed in the scriptures and the words of the prophets. The prophets have a stewardship to receive revelation for the whole church and even the world. That is not just personal revelation, that is Revelation. Our stewardship in that instance is to ask the Holy Spirit for confirmation, not a contradiction. When the scriptures say by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know all things, I believe that. When the prophet gives a revelation, I may pray and KNOW by the power of the Holy Ghost it is true, not just know by my intellect that he said it.

When one confuses the two, that is where problems arise.

I say again that no one is denying the power of the Holy Ghost, only denying the idea that one's "personal revelation" when applied outside one's stewardship, should be shared and/or believed by anyone. God has revealed His will and pattern.

Why provide a prophet if he is not needed? Why provide priesthood power if it is not needed? Why provide scriptures? Why bother to speak of a straight and narrow path we must follow, if many paths lead to the same Tree of Life? Why provide Savior and say that Christ is the only name under heaven by which man may be saved, if there are other names, religions or intellectual paths that lead to the same place?

Strangely, as I typed that last line, I realized this discussion has been had before somewhere on the board.

I have seen many people leave the Church in my life. Many family members, friends and acquaintances. I worry when I see people who think they are talking themselves into the gospel are actually talking themselves out of it. I see the same arguments I have heard so many times being presented on this thread.

Good luck to those of you struggling (whether you realize it or not.) I truly hope you find the truth and hang onto the Iron Rod. Spiritual deception is rampant in our day. If it didn't look so much like the real thing, no one would buy the counterfeit.

Read the scriptures, follow the living prophets, pray for confirmation from the Holy Ghost.

It is a simple and safe pattern.

[Silver Pie]

I'm thinking of opening a hotel or a rooming house in Outer Darkness. I'll rent you a room real cheap. (The best smilies are gone, but these will do, I suppose.)

Tempting offer...hmmm. Will these have indoor plumbing?

Absolutely. The most comfortable rooms you can get in Outer Darkness. And you'll get a good-sized discount because you're a friend.

[Thomas]

How well the Book of Mormon knows us.

4 And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance.

5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;

[Arenera]

Personal revelation is personal. It relates to our stewardship. For example, when the Spirit tells me to check on one of my kids who is about to get in trouble, there is nothing in that revelation that contradicts the teachings of the prophets or scriptures or that requires I first check the scriptures. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost that I KNOW that truth.

But when one is speaking of doctrine or prophesying the future, that is revealed in the scriptures and the words of the prophets. The prophets have a stewardship to receive revelation for the whole church and even the world. That is not just personal revelation, that is Revelation. Our stewardship in that instance is to ask the Holy Spirit for confirmation, not a contradiction. When the scriptures say by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know all things, I believe that. When the prophet gives a revelation, I may pray and KNOW by the power of the Holy Ghost it is true, not just know by my intellect that he said it.

When one confuses the two, that is where problems arise.

I say again that no one is denying the power of the Holy Ghost, only denying the idea that one's "personal revelation" when applied outside one's stewardship, should be shared and/or believed by anyone. God has revealed His will and pattern.

Why provide a prophet if he is not needed? Why provide priesthood power if it is not needed? Why provide scriptures? Why bother to speak of a straight and narrow path we must follow, if many paths lead to the same Tree of Life? Why provide Savior and say that Christ is the only name under heaven by which man may be saved, if there are other names, religions or intellectual paths that lead to the same place?

Strangely, as I typed that last line, I realized this discussion has been had before somewhere on the board.

I have seen many people leave the Church in my life. Many family members, friends and acquaintances. I worry when I see people who think they are talking themselves into the gospel are actually talking themselves out of it. I see the same arguments I have heard so many times being presented on this thread.

Good luck to those of you struggling (whether you realize it or not.) I truly hope you find the truth and hang onto the Iron Rod. Spiritual deception is rampant in our day. If it didn't look so much like the real thing, no one would buy the counterfeit.

Read the scriptures, follow the living prophets, pray for confirmation from the Holy Ghost.

It is a simple and safe pattern.

Michelle, this is different now. Why?

From President Nelson, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, next in line to be the Prophet:

I fear that there are too many priesthood bearers who have done little or nothing to develop their ability to access the powers of heaven.

I worry about all who are impure in their thoughts, feelings, or actions or who demean their wives or children, thereby cutting off priesthood power.

I fear that too many have sadly surrendered their agency to the adversary and are saying by their conduct, “I care more about satisfying my own desires than I do about bearing the Savior’s power to bless others.”

I fear, brethren, that some among us may one day wake up and realize what power in the priesthood really is and face the deep regret that they spent far more time seeking power over others or power at work than learning to exercise fully the power of God.

Why would any man waste his days and settle for Esau’s mess of pottage when he has been entrusted with the possibility of receiving all of the blessings of Abraham?

I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others.

Only a man who has paid the price for priesthood power will be able to bring miracles to those he loves and keep his marriage and family safe, now and throughout eternity.

Michelle, I invite you and others to "climb the mountain". President Nelson has plainly asked us to.

We say to ourselves, "If only I lived in the days of Moses, I would have climbed the mountain with him." But fear kept the Israelites from seeing Christ.

We say to ourselves, "If only I lived in the days of Joseph Smith, I would have climbed the mountain with him." Yet they were too engrossed in the world to do it or see it.

Today is when we live. We have been invited by a prophet of God, one of His apostles. Take the invitation!

Why won't we?

- Lack of desire. See 1 Nephi 2:16
- Fear. "I don't want to be like the Remnants."
- Unbelief. See Ether 4.
- Distracted by the cares of the world. See D&C 39:9

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did,
that they may become sanctified in me,
then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw,
even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations,
saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

[drtanner]

Personal revelation is personal. It relates to our stewardship. For example, when the Spirit tells me to check on one of my kids who is about to get in trouble, there is nothing in that revelation that contradicts the teachings of the prophets or scriptures or that requires I first check the scriptures. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost that I KNOW that truth.

But when one is speaking of doctrine or prophesying the future, that is revealed in the scriptures and the words of the prophets. The prophets have a stewardship to receive revelation for the whole church and even the world. That is not just personal revelation, that is Revelation. Our stewardship in that instance is to ask the Holy Spirit for confirmation, not a contradiction. When the scriptures say by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know all things, I believe that. When the prophet gives a revelation, I may pray and KNOW by the power of the Holy Ghost it is true, not just know by my intellect that he said it.

When one confuses the two, that is where problems arise.

I say again that no one is denying the power of the Holy Ghost, only denying the idea that one's "personal revelation" when applied outside one's stewardship, should be shared and/or believed by anyone. God has revealed His will and pattern.

Why provide a prophet if he is not needed? Why provide priesthood power if it is not needed? Why provide scriptures? Why bother to speak of a straight and narrow path we must follow, if many paths lead to the same Tree of Life? Why provide Savior and say that Christ is the only name under heaven by which man may be saved, if there are other names, religions or intellectual paths that lead to the same place?

Strangely, as I typed that last line, I realized this discussion has been had before somewhere on the board.

I have seen many people leave the Church in my life. Many family members, friends and acquaintances. I worry when I see people who think they are talking themselves into the gospel are actually talking themselves out of it. I see the same arguments I have heard so many times being presented on this thread.

Good luck to those of you struggling (whether you realize it or not.) I truly hope you find the truth and hang onto the Iron Rod. Spiritual deception is rampant in our day. If it didn't look so much like the real thing, no one would buy the counterfeit.

Read the scriptures, follow the living prophets, pray for confirmation from the Holy Ghost.

It is a simple and safe pattern.

Michelle, this is different now. Why?

From President Nelson, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, next in line to be the Prophet:

I fear that there are too many priesthood bearers who have done little or nothing to develop their ability to access the powers of heaven.

I worry about all who are impure in their thoughts, feelings, or actions or who demean their wives or children, thereby cutting off priesthood power.

I fear that too many have sadly surrendered their agency to the adversary and are saying by their conduct, “I care more about satisfying my own desires than I do about bearing the Savior’s power to bless others.”

I fear, brethren, that some among us may one day wake up and realize what power in the priesthood really is and face the deep regret that they spent far more time seeking power over others or power at work than learning to exercise fully the power of God.

Why would any man waste his days and settle for Esau’s mess of pottage when he has been entrusted with the possibility of receiving all of the blessings of Abraham?

I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others.

Only a man who has paid the price for priesthood power will be able to bring miracles to those he loves and keep his marriage and family safe, now and throughout eternity.

Michelle, I invite you and others to "climb the mountain". President Nelson has plainly asked us to.

We say to ourselves, "If only I lived in the days of Moses, I would have climbed the mountain with him." But fear kept the Israelites from seeing Christ.

We say to ourselves, "If only I lived in the days of Joseph Smith, I would have climbed the mountain with him." Yet they were too engrossed in the world to do it or see it.

Today is when we live. We have been invited by a prophet of God, one of His apostles. Take the invitation!

Why won't we?

- Lack of desire. See 1 Nephi 2:16
- Fear. "I don't want to be like the Remnants."
- Unbelief. See Ether 4.
- Distracted by the cares of the world. See D&C 39:9

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did,
that they may become sanctified in me,
then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw,
even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations,
saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

Do you really think Michelle or anyone else on the forum is not already trying to do this? I don’t know where the wires get crossed but somewhere along the lines when someone says “follow the prophet” or “I have a testimony that the prophet holds the keys” others seem to think that means that they are not seeking with all there heart to follow the promptings of Holy Ghost or more importantly seeking an audience with the lord personally. For me this couldn’t be further from the truth. The miracle of this church is the reality that we have available to us the same blessings and miracles as anyone in the scriptures.

[Arenera]

Personal revelation is personal. It relates to our stewardship. For example, when the Spirit tells me to check on one of my kids who is about to get in trouble, there is nothing in that revelation that contradicts the teachings of the prophets or scriptures or that requires I first check the scriptures. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost that I KNOW that truth.

But when one is speaking of doctrine or prophesying the future, that is revealed in the scriptures and the words of the prophets. The prophets have a stewardship to receive revelation for the whole church and even the world. That is not just personal revelation, that is Revelation. Our stewardship in that instance is to ask the Holy Spirit for confirmation, not a contradiction. When the scriptures say by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know all things, I believe that. When the prophet gives a revelation, I may pray and KNOW by the power of the Holy Ghost it is true, not just know by my intellect that he said it.

When one confuses the two, that is where problems arise.

I say again that no one is denying the power of the Holy Ghost, only denying the idea that one's "personal revelation" when applied outside one's stewardship, should be shared and/or believed by anyone. God has revealed His will and pattern.

Why provide a prophet if he is not needed? Why provide priesthood power if it is not needed? Why provide scriptures? Why bother to speak of a straight and narrow path we must follow, if many paths lead to the same Tree of Life? Why provide Savior and say that Christ is the only name under heaven by which man may be saved, if there are other names, religions or intellectual paths that lead to the same place?

Strangely, as I typed that last line, I realized this discussion has been had before somewhere on the board.

I have seen many people leave the Church in my life. Many family members, friends and acquaintances. I worry when I see people who think they are talking themselves into the gospel are actually talking themselves out of it. I see the same arguments I have heard so many times being presented on this thread.

Good luck to those of you struggling (whether you realize it or not.) I truly hope you find the truth and hang onto the Iron Rod. Spiritual deception is rampant in our day. If it didn't look so much like the real thing, no one would buy the counterfeit.

Read the scriptures, follow the living prophets, pray for confirmation from the Holy Ghost.

It is a simple and safe pattern.

Michelle, this is different now. Why?

From President Nelson, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, next in line to be the Prophet:

I fear that there are too many priesthood bearers who have done little or nothing to develop their ability to access the powers of heaven.

I worry about all who are impure in their thoughts, feelings, or actions or who demean their wives or children, thereby cutting off priesthood power.

I fear that too many have sadly surrendered their agency to the adversary and are saying by their conduct, “I care more about satisfying my own desires than I do about bearing the Savior’s power to bless others.”

I fear, brethren, that some among us may one day wake up and realize what power in the priesthood really is and face the deep regret that they spent far more time seeking power over others or power at work than learning to exercise fully the power of God.

Why would any man waste his days and settle for Esau’s mess of pottage when he has been entrusted with the possibility of receiving all of the blessings of Abraham?

I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others.

Only a man who has paid the price for priesthood power will be able to bring miracles to those he loves and keep his marriage and family safe, now and throughout eternity.

Michelle, I invite you and others to "climb the mountain". President Nelson has plainly asked us to.

We say to ourselves, "If only I lived in the days of Moses, I would have climbed the mountain with him." But fear kept the Israelites from seeing Christ.

We say to ourselves, "If only I lived in the days of Joseph Smith, I would have climbed the mountain with him." Yet they were too engrossed in the world to do it or see it.

Today is when we live. We have been invited by a prophet of God, one of His apostles. Take the invitation!

Why won't we?

- Lack of desire. See 1 Nephi 2:16
- Fear. "I don't want to be like the Remnants."
- Unbelief. See Ether 4.
- Distracted by the cares of the world. See D&C 39:9

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did,
that they may become sanctified in me,
then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw,
even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations,
saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

Do you really think Michelle or anyone else on the forum is not already trying to do this? I don’t know where the wires get crossed but somewhere along the lines when someone says “follow the prophet” or “I have a testimony that the prophet holds the keys” others seem to think that means that they are not seeking with all there heart to follow the promptings of Holy Ghost or more importantly seeking an audience with the lord personally. For me this couldn’t be further from the truth. The miracle of this church is the reality that we have available to us the same blessings and miracles as anyone in the scriptures.

When I quoted President Benson saying "Seek the face of the Lord", why didn't you respond with "That's great, I'm trying to do it" instead of "he that receiveth my servants receiveth me?

I don't think President Benson looks like Christ.

Climb the mountain.

[drtanner]

Personal revelation is personal. It relates to our stewardship. For example, when the Spirit tells me to check on one of my kids who is about to get in trouble, there is nothing in that revelation that contradicts the teachings of the prophets or scriptures or that requires I first check the scriptures. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost that I KNOW that truth.

But when one is speaking of doctrine or prophesying the future, that is revealed in the scriptures and the words of the prophets. The prophets have a stewardship to receive revelation for the whole church and even the world. That is not just personal revelation, that is Revelation. Our stewardship in that instance is to ask the Holy Spirit for confirmation, not a contradiction. When the scriptures say by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know all things, I believe that. When the prophet gives a revelation, I may pray and KNOW by the power of the Holy Ghost it is true, not just know by my intellect that he said it.

When one confuses the two, that is where problems arise.

I say again that no one is denying the power of the Holy Ghost, only denying the idea that one's "personal revelation" when applied outside one's stewardship, should be shared and/or believed by anyone. God has revealed His will and pattern.

Why provide a prophet if he is not needed? Why provide priesthood power if it is not needed? Why provide scriptures? Why bother to speak of a straight and narrow path we must follow, if many paths lead to the same Tree of Life? Why provide Savior and say that Christ is the only name under heaven by which man may be saved, if there are other names, religions or intellectual paths that lead to the same place?

Strangely, as I typed that last line, I realized this discussion has been had before somewhere on the board.

I have seen many people leave the Church in my life. Many family members, friends and acquaintances. I worry when I see people who think they are talking themselves into the gospel are actually talking themselves out of it. I see the same arguments I have heard so many times being presented on this thread.

Good luck to those of you struggling (whether you realize it or not.) I truly hope you find the truth and hang onto the Iron Rod. Spiritual deception is rampant in our day. If it didn't look so much like the real thing, no one would buy the counterfeit.

Read the scriptures, follow the living prophets, pray for confirmation from the Holy Ghost.

It is a simple and safe pattern.

Michelle, this is different now. Why?

From President Nelson, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, next in line to be the Prophet:

I fear that there are too many priesthood bearers who have done little or nothing to develop their ability to access the powers of heaven.

I worry about all who are impure in their thoughts, feelings, or actions or who demean their wives or children, thereby cutting off priesthood power.

I fear that too many have sadly surrendered their agency to the adversary and are saying by their conduct, “I care more about satisfying my own desires than I do about bearing the Savior’s power to bless others.”

I fear, brethren, that some among us may one day wake up and realize what power in the priesthood really is and face the deep regret that they spent far more time seeking power over others or power at work than learning to exercise fully the power of God.

Why would any man waste his days and settle for Esau’s mess of pottage when he has been entrusted with the possibility of receiving all of the blessings of Abraham?

I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others.

Only a man who has paid the price for priesthood power will be able to bring miracles to those he loves and keep his marriage and family safe, now and throughout eternity.

Michelle, I invite you and others to "climb the mountain". President Nelson has plainly asked us to.

We say to ourselves, "If only I lived in the days of Moses, I would have climbed the mountain with him." But fear kept the Israelites from seeing Christ.

We say to ourselves, "If only I lived in the days of Joseph Smith, I would have climbed the mountain with him." Yet they were too engrossed in the world to do it or see it.

Today is when we live. We have been invited by a prophet of God, one of His apostles. Take the invitation!

Why won't we?

- Lack of desire. See 1 Nephi 2:16
- Fear. "I don't want to be like the Remnants."
- Unbelief. See Ether 4.
- Distracted by the cares of the world. See D&C 39:9

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did,
that they may become sanctified in me,
then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw,
even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations,
saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

Do you really think Michelle or anyone else on the forum is not already trying to do this? I don’t know where the wires get crossed but somewhere along the lines when someone says “follow the prophet” or “I have a testimony that the prophet holds the keys” others seem to think that means that they are not seeking with all there heart to follow the promptings of Holy Ghost or more importantly seeking an audience with the lord personally. For me this couldn’t be further from the truth. The miracle of this church is the reality that we have available to us the same blessings and miracles as anyone in the scriptures.

When I quoted President Benson saying "Seek the face of the Lord", why didn't you respond with "That's great, I'm trying to do it" instead of "he that receiveth my servants receiveth me?

I don't think President Benson looks like Christ.

Climb the mountain.

Simply meaning part of seeking Christ is making sure you are in harmony with the messages of his servants. I’m sure just as much as you are judging our desires, efforts, and belief systems in the importance of finding an audience with Christ because we feel that part of that process is being in line with what prophets council we are guilty of judging your desire to be in harmony with what these men teach. If you have felt that judgement I apologize.

I like many others have seen far to many casualties of those who side step the brethren’s council in this process.

[Finrock]

Personal revelation is personal. It relates to our stewardship. For example, when the Spirit tells me to check on one of my kids who is about to get in trouble, there is nothing in that revelation that contradicts the teachings of the prophets or scriptures or that requires I first check the scriptures. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost that I KNOW that truth.

But when one is speaking of doctrine or prophesying the future, that is revealed in the scriptures and the words of the prophets. The prophets have a stewardship to receive revelation for the whole church and even the world. That is not just personal revelation, that is Revelation. Our stewardship in that instance is to ask the Holy Spirit for confirmation, not a contradiction. When the scriptures say by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know all things, I believe that. When the prophet gives a revelation, I may pray and KNOW by the power of the Holy Ghost it is true, not just know by my intellect that he said it.

When one confuses the two, that is where problems arise.

I say again that no one is denying the power of the Holy Ghost, only denying the idea that one's "personal revelation" when applied outside one's stewardship, should be shared and/or believed by anyone. God has revealed His will and pattern.

Why provide a prophet if he is not needed? Why provide priesthood power if it is not needed? Why provide scriptures? Why bother to speak of a straight and narrow path we must follow, if many paths lead to the same Tree of Life? Why provide Savior and say that Christ is the only name under heaven by which man may be saved, if there are other names, religions or intellectual paths that lead to the same place?

Strangely, as I typed that last line, I realized this discussion has been had before somewhere on the board.

I have seen many people leave the Church in my life. Many family members, friends and acquaintances. I worry when I see people who think they are talking themselves into the gospel are actually talking themselves out of it. I see the same arguments I have heard so many times being presented on this thread.

Good luck to those of you struggling (whether you realize it or not.) I truly hope you find the truth and hang onto the Iron Rod. Spiritual deception is rampant in our day. If it didn't look so much like the real thing, no one would buy the counterfeit.

Read the scriptures, follow the living prophets, pray for confirmation from the Holy Ghost.

It is a simple and safe pattern.

The pattern established by Jesus Christ is called the Doctrine of Christ. It is that one must have a broken heart and a contrite spirit, repent and be baptized, and then will they be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. That is what Jesus Christ came here to do. That is salvation, to receive the Holy Ghost. Prophets and scripture exist to help people to be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Prophets are sent to a wicked and an idolatrous people who are living in sin and in unbelief. The prophets testify and lead people to Christ, those people who have yet to receive Christ by being baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Prophets are needed, just as the scriptures are. All true prophets speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. All true scripture are those thing uttered and recorded by the power of the Holy Ghost. Through the power of the Holy Ghost we can learn to recognize the voice of Jesus Christ, His word, or the iron rod, which leads us to eternal life. The Church is here to help people come on to Christ. Everything in the Church is there to help us to be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

Don’t you think it should be in this order?

The Holy Ghost - the test of the Spirit.
What do the standard works say about it?
What do the latter-day Presidents have to say on the subject?

Should the order be reversed? You need to consider if Pres. Benson purposely chose that order. If you read it, I think it's clear that he did. You want to put number 3 first, but Pres. Benson does not want it first, He purposefully puts it last. Of the Holy Ghost, he said 'The third and final test is the Holy Ghost--the test of the Spirit'.

So now I ask you, Do you agree that these three things, IN the order Pres. Benson placed them, are the standard to use for evaluating the validity of our own personal revelation?

No. Didn’t seem the way with Nephi.

President Benson said: “Seek the face of the Lord, always. [D&C 101:38]”. Is this not what President Nelson said recently?

And what point are you trying to make?

I reiterated that Pres. Benson taught that we need to use three guidelines for determining true revelation; He put 'the test of the spirit' after the words of the living prophets and the teachings in the scriptures. He meant it in that order. Nothing that Pres. Nelson said changed that are minimized what Pres. Benson said. Yet, you seem to keep pushing something that is 'off' from that position (the position that Pres. Nelson also agrees with Pres. Benson's teachings on the order).

This is why some of us are not comfortable fully supporting what you are saying, it's got too much of the smell of 'Snufferism' and other dissident beliefs--they put 'the spirit' first and foremost--they deny the prophets (they call them the 'arm of flesh') and they now only accept scriptures that they've scrubbed of what they think is not inspired. To read your comments it seems you are leaning in that direction--though I will admit, you often don't explain your position and instead post scripture and we are left to divine what your interpretation is. Unfortunately that can mean misunderstanding and so, I may be misunderstanding you--if so, I'm sorry.

Maybe you can clarify. I've always believed you are devout LDS, but in this discussion, I'm confused.

[Finrock]

Should the order be reversed? You need to consider if Pres. Benson purposely chose that order. If you read it, I think it's clear that he did. You want to put number 3 first, but Pres. Benson does not want it first, He purposefully puts it last. Of the Holy Ghost, he said 'The third and final test is the Holy Ghost--the test of the Spirit'.

So now I ask you, Do you agree that these three things, IN the order Pres. Benson placed them, are the standard to use for evaluating the validity of our own personal revelation?

No. Didn’t seem the way with Nephi.

President Benson said: “Seek the face of the Lord, always. [D&C 101:38]”. Is this not what President Nelson said recently?

And what point are you trying to make?

I reiterated that Pres. Benson taught that we need to use three guidelines for determining true revelation; He put 'the test of the spirit' after the words of the living prophets and the teachings in the scriptures. He meant it in that order. Nothing that Pres. Nelson said changed that are minimized what Pres. Benson said. Yet, you seem to keep pushing something that is 'off' from that position (the position that Pres. Nelson also agrees with Pres. Benson's teachings on the order).

This is why some of us are not comfortable fully supporting what you are saying, it's got too much of the smell of 'Snufferism' and other dissident beliefs--they put 'the spirit' first and foremost--they deny the prophets (they call them the 'arm of flesh') and they now only accept scriptures that they've scrubbed of what they think is not inspired. To read your comments it seems you are leaning in that direction--though I will admit, you often don't explain your position and instead post scripture and we are left to divine what your interpretation is. Unfortunately that can mean misunderstanding and so, I may be misunderstanding you--if so, I'm sorry.

Maybe you can clarify. I've always believed you are devout LDS, but in this discussion, I'm confused.

This is an attempt to call Arenera's faithfulness and loyalty in to question because you differ in what you believe. You are attempting to put social pressure on Arenera to conform to your dogma/creed/beliefs by questioning their status as part of the group. Its a lame tactic and demonstrates the sociocentric tendencies that exist within the Church and the consequences for not conforming with the group's thinking.

-Finrock

[Arenera]

Should the order be reversed? You need to consider if Pres. Benson purposely chose that order. If you read it, I think it's clear that he did. You want to put number 3 first, but Pres. Benson does not want it first, He purposefully puts it last. Of the Holy Ghost, he said 'The third and final test is the Holy Ghost--the test of the Spirit'.

So now I ask you, Do you agree that these three things, IN the order Pres. Benson placed them, are the standard to use for evaluating the validity of our own personal revelation?

No. Didn’t seem the way with Nephi.

President Benson said: “Seek the face of the Lord, always. [D&C 101:38]”. Is this not what President Nelson said recently?

And what point are you trying to make?

I reiterated that Pres. Benson taught that we need to use three guidelines for determining true revelation; He put 'the test of the spirit' after the words of the living prophets and the teachings in the scriptures. He meant it in that order. Nothing that Pres. Nelson said changed that are minimized what Pres. Benson said. Yet, you seem to keep pushing something that is 'off' from that position (the position that Pres. Nelson also agrees with Pres. Benson's teachings on the order).

This is why some of us are not comfortable fully supporting what you are saying, it's got too much of the smell of 'Snufferism' and other dissident beliefs--they put 'the spirit' first and foremost--they deny the prophets (they call them the 'arm of flesh') and they now only accept scriptures that they've scrubbed of what they think is not inspired. To read your comments it seems you are leaning in that direction--though I will admit, you often don't explain your position and instead post scripture and we are left to divine what your interpretation is. Unfortunately that can mean misunderstanding and so, I may be misunderstanding you--if so, I'm sorry.

Maybe you can clarify. I've always believed you are devout LDS, but in this discussion, I'm confused.

AI2.0, you were born for these days. You have the faith for these days, you proved it in the preexistence. You are strong, you have felt it, you know it.

The adversary knows this too. How could the adversary keep you from reaching the faith (which also includes the power) that you had in the preexistence? The adversary sent someone to deceive you, us. Not in not believing in Christ, but in not achieving the power from the strong faith you have.

Snuffer is a deceiver. He started by discussing the "greater portion", like receiving the Second Comforter. He talked about places in the Book of Mormon where you can see the greater portion. Those who are interested in the greater portion (which I believe is also from faith exhibited in the preexistence) caught on and started following Snuffer. Then the adversary (using Snuffer) laid the trap. Writing a history of the church that was false, some people jumped in and effectively left the church. Now the remnants do weird stuff, they seem to have forgotten the greater portion.

The adversary has also set a trap of fear so those members (like you) who are interested in the greater portion, don't seek for it because you don't want to be like the Snufferites.

To climb this mountain, to get to the greater portion, there is some risk. We've seen it with the remnants. As one climbs, the adversary will be there also. It happened with Moses. It happened with Joseph Smith. The reward is worth it, far greater than the risk.

Nephi wrote his portion of the Book of Mormon for you. From the very first verse to the end of 2nd Nephi, where Nephi boils it down to the Doctrine of Christ. The baptism of fire, which we like to call conversion, is where you are up the mountain enough to have the Holy Ghost. Not once in a while, all the time. You are now in the "burnings". You are now sanctified. You sins can now be remitted. Now you hear the words of the Lord. Christ will now give you instruction that you need to follow. Now a priesthood holder has access to the power. Now you have charity.

Desire. Faith. Obedience. Baptism of fire.

You know I'm not a Snufferite. You know I'm not a dissident. I have been called all sorts of names. Spiritual power is there for those who reject fear, have great desire, believe and give up the world.

[brlenox]

-Finrock

Prophets are only prophets when they speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. Those things which are scripture are things that have been uttered by or uttered under the influence of the Holy Ghost. It all comes back to the Spirit or the Holy Ghost. Men have no true authority without the Spirit. No man speaks for God without the Spirit. Nothing is scripture if it isn't from the Spirit.
Which prophet does President Monson check with to validate or to confirm that he is speaking truth or the words of the God?
-Finrock

To address each line of this statement, I have broken it into segments. This makes it easier to see where there is error and where it is a correct statement.

Finrock #1 - Prophets are only prophets when they speak by the power of the Holy Ghost.

FALSE

First we have to qualify the first sentence. This is a rough paraphrase of a statement made by Joseph Smith and as is common in paraphrasing it is missing the intent of the actual quote:

This morning I ... visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that "a prophet is always a prophet;" but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such. (History of the Church, 5:265; see also Teachings, p. 278)

Obviously, Joseph is speaking to a potentially more expanded role than is insinuated in Finrocks paraphrase, that only when a prophets mouth is moving does he even have a hope of being a prophet. Then, if his mouth is moving we have to determine is the Holy Ghost the one pulling the strings because only in that moment is he a prophet. Surely that would be absurd to approach the state of being a prophet in that fashion. If a prophet sits on the stand during general conference, presiding over the meeting, he is a prophet though he should say nothing.

Where the egregious error is in Finrock #1 is that his paraphrase is a conflation of two different sources as if they are one. Since Finrock # 2 is the other half of the conflated concept that painfully births Finrock #1 let us proceed.

Finrock #2 Those things which are scripture are things that have been uttered by or uttered under the influence of the Holy Ghost.

True – With reservation. The verses from D & C 68 are speaking to those Elders who have been called to go on missions. In the process of proselyting, teaching the gospel, they should teach and speak by the spirit which will be scripture to those who hear the message. Nonetheless, it would not become canonized scripture to which the Saints were obligated.

These two conflated concepts get run through the Hadron Collider particle accelerator and collide with such force as to become a new concept which is now referred to affectionately as Finrock #1.

Let's review this other half of this concept from Doctrine and Covenants 68:

Doctrine and Covenants 68:1-7

1 My servant, Orson Hyde, was called by his ordination to proclaim the everlasting gospel, by the Spirit of the living God, from people to people, and from land to land, in the congregations of the wicked, in their synagogues, reasoning with and expounding all scriptures unto them.

2 And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth—

3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

5 Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants.

6 Wherefore, be of good cheer, and do not fear, for I the Lord am with you, and will stand by you; and ye shall bear record of me, even Jesus Christ, that I am the Son of the living God, that I was, that I am, and that I am to come.

7 This is the word of the Lord unto you, my servant Orson Hyde, and also unto my servant Luke Johnson, and unto my servant Lyman Johnson, and unto my servant William E. McLellin, and unto all the faithful elders of my church—

I think that the most important issue here is that of combining the two thoughts and making the state of being a prophet as something different than that which Joseph Smith intended. This issue of by the Holy Ghost's power something would be scripture is not the same as by the Holy Ghost power would a prophet be a prophet. In fact there is no discussion whatsoever of how this affects prophetic status whatsoever.

Finrock #3 Men have no true authority without the Spirit.

Not Clear – Need source upon which this thought is predicated. If it is D & C 121: 37 then I can concur with reservations.

D & C 121:37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

Following at the end of responding to these points is an example that indicates that while words may not be specifically spoken under the influence of the spirit the person speaking may reveal information for which they are the authority and it is compelling to the point of correcting mistaken notions of being guided by the spirit.

Finrock #4 No man speaks for God without the Spirit.

Need source material for this thought to consider.

Finrock #5 Nothing is scripture if it isn't from the Spirit.

True Nonetheless that does not speak to the fact that one person claiming the spirit may understand a scripture differently than another who also claims the spirit.

Finrock, I think this point should be most clear to you. You continue to be the best example I can recall which will illustrate the point and this references the thought I left in Finrock #3 that there are words of truth that can be spoken which we would not generally characterized as being spoken under the spirit which can be very compelling to clarifying correct understanding. There is scripture in Doctrine and Covenants 137:5 which discusses a vision that Joseph Smith had in which he saw his brother Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom:

D & C 137:5-9

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

When you read this set of scriptures it said something to you which you presumably took to be from the spirit. I quote from your responses:

Now, as far as what I'm speaking to, I'm speaking to only exactly what the scriptures that I've provided as proof for my words say. The scriptures plainly speak of categories of individuals who have not and will not be baptized by water, ever, in any way shape or form. It is only by adding to or taking away from the scriptures in question that one can make them say or read otherwise. But, in their simplest and purest reading, this is what they say. I don't have any other agenda other than to point out this scriptural fact. For anyone at this point to say or make a claim otherwise about what I'm saying or what I'm trying to do, will be bearing false witness against me.

D&C 137 plainly and simply says that Alvin was saved in the celestial kingdom without having been baptized for the remission of sins and it plainly and simply states that all people who have died or will die without having knowledge of the gospel but who would have accepted it had they been exposed to it, will be heirs of the celestial kingdom without being baptized for the remission of sins. This is what is plainly and obviously stated in D&C 137. For anyone to bring anything else in to the mix is a molestation of that scripture. Further, Moroni 8 plainly and simply states that children and those who are born without the law need not be baptized. Anyone who brings anything else in to the mix is molesting and altering the scriptures in question.

I'm sorry that this doesn't fit any paradigms or preconceived notions that one might have, but that is what the scriptures plainly and simply say. I didn't make it up and I'm not just teaching my own doctrine. I'm reading the scriptures and this is what they stated. So, if we are to accept the scriptures as written, we must accept that there are groups of individuals who do not need to be baptized by water in order to be saved in the celestial kingdom and by extension we can conclude that being baptized by water is not universally needed for all individuals in order to be saved in the celestial kingdom of God.

-Finrock

While you thought it was the spirit guiding your understandings it became quite the tussle to convince you of your mistaken notions. As adamant and demonstrative as you were to the contrary of proper interpretation, what is very significant is that you were able to overcome your mistaken inspirations on the very point that we are trying to make in this thread. Someone, who shall remain unnamed posted the words of a prophet which stated:

Finally on 15 August 1840, Joseph Smith preached the doctrine of baptism for the dead publicly for the first time in a sermon at the funeral of Seymour Brunson.

Four months later, he (Joseph Smith) mentioned this sermon in a letter to the members of the Quorum of the Twelve who were serving missions overseas. He wrote:

I presume the doctrine of "Baptism for the dead" has ere this reached your ears, and may have raised some inquiries in your mind respecting the same. I cannot in this letter give you all the information you may desire on the subject, but aside from my knowledge independent of the Bible, I would say, that this was certainly practiced by the ancient Churches and St Paul endeavors to prove the doctrine of the resurrection from the same, and says "else what shall they do who are baptized for the dead["] &c &c. I first mentioned the doctrine in public while preaching the funeral sermon of Bro Brunson, and have since then given general instructions to the Church on the subject. The saints have the privilege of being baptized for those of their relatives who are dead, who they feel to believe would have embraced the gospel if they had been privileged with hearing it, and who have received the gospel in the spirit through the instrumentality of those who may have been commissioned to preach to them while in prison.

Less than one month after first preaching this doctrine publicly, Joseph was called to the bed of his aged father, who was rapidly declining in health. Joseph's mother would later recall that during this bedside interview, Joseph "informed his father, that it was then the privilege of the saints to be baptized for the dead." She would also remember that her dying husband "was delighted to hear [this fact], and requested, that Joseph should be baptized for Alvin immediately; and, as he expected to live but a short time, desired that his children would stay with him as much as they could consistently."

Before long, the baptismal work for Alvin would be completed, meeting the scriptural requirement and finally making possible what Joseph had seen in vision in 1836--that Father Smith and his son Alvin that would be together in the celestial kingdom. https://cfhg.byu.edu/pdf/firesides/2001-11-09.pdf

These words by the prophet Joseph Smith are him referring to a doctrine which was inspired by the spirit. However, typically we would not consider these words of a prophet as spoken under the direction of the spirit. Nonetheless, the way that he ties these words into the verse of scripture from D & C 137 made it very clear to you that you had been mistaken and wrong in your interpretation of scripture. Additionally, since Joseph has not grieved the spirit as D & C 121 qualifies as the point of loss of authority he speaks this words recollected from his own mind while still in the authority of being a prophet where he is expounding upon earlier revelation. And these words were sufficient to disabuse any individual teaching false doctrine that baptism was not required for entry into the Celestial Kingdom for those who have reached the age of accountability as had Alvin.

The point and examples provided to illustrate that points Finrock #1 - Finrock #5 need to be flushed out more fully before anyone can get on board and sustain them and the examples illustrate that there are additional means in which a prophet words can simply be sourced from his own authority and yet reveal truth.

As for President Monson and where he gets his inspiration from it is clear that he gets his the same way that we all do by becoming familiar with the words of scripture and earlier prophets and allowing the spirit to illuminate those things to him just as we do. However, there is one more caveat to this that we will let President Joseph Fielding Smith speak to:

When one of the brethren stands before a congregation of the people today, and the inspiration of the Lord is upon him, he speaks that which the Lord would have him speak. It is just as much scripture as anything you will find written in any of these records, and yet we call these the standard works of the Church. We depend, of course, upon the guidance of the brethren who are entitled to inspiration.

There is only one man in the Church at a time who has the right to give revelation for the Church, and that is the President of the Church. But that does not bar any other member in this Church from speaking the word of the Lord, as indicated here in this revelation, section 68, but a revelation that is to be given as these revelations are given in this book, to the Church, will come through the presiding officer of the Church; yet, the word of the Lord, as spoken by other servants at the general conferences and stake conferences, or wherever they may be when they speak that which the Lord has put into their mouths, is just as much the word of the Lord as the writings and the words of other prophets in other dispensations. (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:186.)

Additionally, Harold B. Lee actually provides a brilliant caveat for the fact that the current prophet of the church is not bound by his words spoken under the spirit being required to be sustaining of scripture:

It is not to be thought that every word spoken by the General Authorities is inspired, or that they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost in everything they read and write. Now you keep that in mind. I don’t care what his position is, if he writes something or speaks something that goes beyond anything that you can find in the standard church works, unless that one be the prophet, seer, and revelator—please note that one exception—you may immediately say, ‘Well, that is his own idea.’ And if he says something that contradicts what is found in the standard church works (I think that is why we call them ‘standard’—it is the standard measure of all that men teach), you may know by that same token that it is false, regardless of the position of the man who says it.” (Lee, Harold B., The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator [address delivered to seminary and institute of religion faculty, 8 July 1964], p. 14.)

Finally, these words by President J. Rueben Clark

How shall we know when the things they have spoken were said as they were ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost?

I have given some thought to this question, and the answer thereto so far as I can determine, is: We can tell when the speakers are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’ only when we, ourselves, are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak.” (When Are the Writings or Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Scripture? [address delivered to seminary and institute of religion personnel, 7 July 1954], p. 7.)

While it shifts the burden to us, it does not mean that simple claims of proper interpretation of scripture can be claimed as sourced from the spirit if the same limitation applies to us as applies to all others except the acting prophet himself. He alone may seemingly disagree with scripture but we like all others can check our own inspirations, by comparing them to the scriptures and the words of the prophets and apostles. Imagine if the individual above who had such mistaken notions concerning Baptism for the dead had simply taken John 3:5 at face value:

John 3:5

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Well I think it could have made a big difference in terms of mistaken understandings.

[drtanner]

Personal revelation is personal. It relates to our stewardship. For example, when the Spirit tells me to check on one of my kids who is about to get in trouble, there is nothing in that revelation that contradicts the teachings of the prophets or scriptures or that requires I first check the scriptures. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost that I KNOW that truth.

But when one is speaking of doctrine or prophesying the future, that is revealed in the scriptures and the words of the prophets. The prophets have a stewardship to receive revelation for the whole church and even the world. That is not just personal revelation, that is Revelation. Our stewardship in that instance is to ask the Holy Spirit for confirmation, not a contradiction. When the scriptures say by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know all things, I believe that. When the prophet gives a revelation, I may pray and KNOW by the power of the Holy Ghost it is true, not just know by my intellect that he said it.

When one confuses the two, that is where problems arise.

I say again that no one is denying the power of the Holy Ghost, only denying the idea that one's "personal revelation" when applied outside one's stewardship, should be shared and/or believed by anyone. God has revealed His will and pattern.

Why provide a prophet if he is not needed? Why provide priesthood power if it is not needed? Why provide scriptures? Why bother to speak of a straight and narrow path we must follow, if many paths lead to the same Tree of Life? Why provide Savior and say that Christ is the only name under heaven by which man may be saved, if there are other names, religions or intellectual paths that lead to the same place?

Strangely, as I typed that last line, I realized this discussion has been had before somewhere on the board.

I have seen many people leave the Church in my life. Many family members, friends and acquaintances. I worry when I see people who think they are talking themselves into the gospel are actually talking themselves out of it. I see the same arguments I have heard so many times being presented on this thread.

Good luck to those of you struggling (whether you realize it or not.) I truly hope you find the truth and hang onto the Iron Rod. Spiritual deception is rampant in our day. If it didn't look so much like the real thing, no one would buy the counterfeit.

Read the scriptures, follow the living prophets, pray for confirmation from the Holy Ghost.

It is a simple and safe pattern.

The pattern established by Jesus Christ is called the Doctrine of Christ. It is that one must have a broken heart and a contrite spirit, repent and be baptized, and then will they be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. That is what Jesus Christ came here to do. That is salvation, to receive the Holy Ghost. Prophets and scripture exist to help people to be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Prophets are sent to a wicked and an idolatrous people who are living in sin and in unbelief. The prophets testify and lead people to Christ, those people who have yet to receive Christ by being baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Prophets are needed, just as the scriptures are. All true prophets speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. All true scripture are those thing uttered and recorded by the power of the Holy Ghost. Through the power of the Holy Ghost we can learn to recognize the voice of Jesus Christ, His word, or the iron rod, which leads us to eternal life. The Church is here to help people come on to Christ. Everything in the Church is there to help us to be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost.

-Finrock

Yes very true and well put and I would add the purpose of being sanctified by the Holy Ghost is not to check off a box in our progression, but is the miracle that our very natures can be changed through Christ.

Elder Bednar puts it much better:

The gate of baptism leads to the strait and narrow path and to the destination of putting off the natural man and becoming a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19). The purpose of our mortal journey is not merely to see the sights on earth or to expend our allotment of time on self-centered pursuits; rather, we are to “walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:4), to become sanctified by yielding our hearts unto God (see Helaman 3:35), and to obtain “the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:16).

We are commanded and instructed to so live that our fallen nature is changed through the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost. President Marion G. Romney taught that the baptism of fire by the Holy Ghost “converts [us] from carnality to spirituality. It cleanses, heals, and purifies the soul. … Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, and water baptism are all preliminary and prerequisite to it, but [the baptism of fire] is the consummation. To receive [this baptism of fire] is to have one’s garments washed in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ” (Learning for the Eternities, comp. George J. Romney [1977], 133; see also 3 Nephi 27:19–20).

Hence, as we are born again and strive to always have His Spirit to be with us, the Holy Ghost sanctifies and refines our souls as if by fire (see 2 Nephi 31:13–14, 17). Ultimately, we are to stand spotless before God.

The gospel of Jesus Christ encompasses much more than avoiding, overcoming, and being cleansed from sin and the bad influences in our lives; it also essentially entails doing good, being good, and becoming better. Repenting of our sins and seeking forgiveness are spiritually necessary, and we must always do so. But remission of sin is not the only or even the ultimate purpose of the gospel. To have our hearts changed by the Holy Spirit such that “we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually” (Mosiah 5:2), as did King Benjamin’s people, is the covenant responsibility we have accepted. This mighty change is not simply the result of working harder or developing greater individual discipline. Rather, it is the consequence of a fundamental change in our desires, our motives, and our natures made possible through the Atonement of Christ the Lord. Our spiritual purpose is to overcome both sin and the desire to sin, both the taint and the tyranny of sin.

So for me if someone on the forum claims that have been sanctified, cleansed, and born again to the point that they really are a new creature but lack kindness, humility, gentleness, meekness, and love unfeigned in the way they respond to others it contradicts the reality and purpose of the blessing they are claiming they have experienced.

So many want to point to "a" experience as a differentiator for them. The differentiator is not the experience, it is the love they really do have for others in their heart.

[Arenera]

Seek the Spirit of the Lord

One sure way we can determine whether we are on the strait and narrow path is that we will possess the Spirit of the Lord in our lives.

Having the Holy Ghost brings forth certain fruits.

The Apostle Paul said that “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, [and] temperance.” (Gal. 5:22–23.)

The most important thing in our lives is the Spirit. I have always felt that. We must remain open and sensitive to the promptings of the Holy Ghost in all aspects of our lives.

President McKay and President Lee used this experience to teach that we must always be responsive to the whisperings of the Spirit. These promptings most often come when we are not under the pressure of appointments and when we are not caught up in the worries of day-to-day life.

Meditate

Take time to meditate. Meditation on a passage of scripture—James 1:5—led a young boy into a grove of trees to commune with his Heavenly Father. That is what opened the heavens in this dispensation.

Ponder the significance of the responsibility the Lord has given to us. The Lord has counseled, “Let the solemnities of eternity rest upon your minds.” (D&C 43:34.) You cannot do that when your minds are preoccupied with the cares of the world.

Ponder matters that you do not understand. As the Lord commanded Oliver Cowdery, “Study it out in your mind; then … ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.” (D&C 9:8)

Read the Scriptures

Read and study the scriptures. The scriptures should be studied in the home with fathers and mothers taking the lead and setting the example. The scriptures are to be comprehended by the power of the Holy Ghost, for the Lord has given this promise to His faithful and obedient: “Thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things.” (D&C 42:61)

The Holy Ghost causes our feelings to be more tender. We feel more charitable and compassionate with each other. We are more calm in our relationships. We have a greater capacity to love each other. People want to be around us because our very countenances radiate the influence of the Spirit. We are more godly in our character. As a result, we become increasingly more sensitive to the promptings of the Holy Ghost and thus able to comprehend spiritual things more clearly.

Take to heart the words of the Savior, “Treasure up in your minds continually the words of life.” (D&C 84:85; italics added.)

Spirituality—being in tune with the Spirit of the Lord—is the greatest need we all have. We should strive for the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost all the days of our lives. When we have the Spirit, we will love to serve, we will love the Lord, and we will love those with whom we serve, and those whom we serve.

[Hivetyrant36]

That's the key though... the modern prophet is the only man that is qualified to speak FOR THE CHURCH. It didn't say FOR EVERYBODY EVER.

[brlenox]

This is just a bump as I would like to invite Finrocks response:

"I understand why you've stopped" responding the way that you have. "You have been offended and so you" are ignoring my posts in response, "which is historically typical for you. You feel like I'm belittling your status...in the Church. I need to remember when addressing you that you have this tough, outer shell that's all spiky, but you're really fragile on the inside."

"Well, I can assure you that I am not intending to offend you. If something that I've said is offensive to you then I can't take responsibility for that. Here is some sage advice from Brigham Young: "He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool.”"

So just thought to give you a second chance.

-Finrock

Prophets are only prophets when they speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. Those things which are scripture are things that have been uttered by or uttered under the influence of the Holy Ghost. It all comes back to the Spirit or the Holy Ghost. Men have no true authority without the Spirit. No man speaks for God without the Spirit. Nothing is scripture if it isn't from the Spirit.
Which prophet does President Monson check with to validate or to confirm that he is speaking truth or the words of the God?
-Finrock

To address each line of this statement, I have broken it into segments. This makes it easier to see where there is error and where it is a correct statement.

Finrock #1 - Prophets are only prophets when they speak by the power of the Holy Ghost.

FALSE

First we have to qualify the first sentence. This is a rough paraphrase of a statement made by Joseph Smith and as is common in paraphrasing it is missing the intent of the actual quote:

This morning I ... visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that "a prophet is always a prophet;" but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such. (History of the Church, 5:265; see also Teachings, p. 278)

Obviously, Joseph is speaking to a potentially more expanded role than is insinuated in Finrocks paraphrase, that only when a prophets mouth is moving does he even have a hope of being a prophet. Then, if his mouth is moving we have to determine is the Holy Ghost the one pulling the strings because only in that moment is he a prophet. Surely that would be absurd to approach the state of being a prophet in that fashion. If a prophet sits on the stand during general conference, presiding over the meeting, he is a prophet though he should say nothing.

Where the egregious error is in Finrock #1 is that his paraphrase is a conflation of two different sources as if they are one. Since Finrock # 2 is the other half of the conflated concept that painfully births Finrock #1 let us proceed.

Finrock #2 Those things which are scripture are things that have been uttered by or uttered under the influence of the Holy Ghost.

True – With reservation. The verses from D & C 68 are speaking to those Elders who have been called to go on missions. In the process of proselyting, teaching the gospel, they should teach and speak by the spirit which will be scripture to those who hear the message. Nonetheless, it would not become canonized scripture to which the Saints were obligated.

These two conflated concepts get run through the Hadron Collider particle accelerator and collide with such force as to become a new concept which is now referred to affectionately as Finrock #1.

Let's review this other half of this concept from Doctrine and Covenants 68:

Doctrine and Covenants 68:1-7

1 My servant, Orson Hyde, was called by his ordination to proclaim the everlasting gospel, by the Spirit of the living God, from people to people, and from land to land, in the congregations of the wicked, in their synagogues, reasoning with and expounding all scriptures unto them.

2 And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth—

3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

5 Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants.

6 Wherefore, be of good cheer, and do not fear, for I the Lord am with you, and will stand by you; and ye shall bear record of me, even Jesus Christ, that I am the Son of the living God, that I was, that I am, and that I am to come.

7 This is the word of the Lord unto you, my servant Orson Hyde, and also unto my servant Luke Johnson, and unto my servant Lyman Johnson, and unto my servant William E. McLellin, and unto all the faithful elders of my church—

I think that the most important issue here is that of combining the two thoughts and making the state of being a prophet as something different than that which Joseph Smith intended. This issue of by the Holy Ghost's power something would be scripture is not the same as by the Holy Ghost power would a prophet be a prophet. In fact there is no discussion whatsoever of how this affects prophetic status whatsoever.

Finrock #3 Men have no true authority without the Spirit.

Not Clear – Need source upon which this thought is predicated. If it is D & C 121: 37 then I can concur with reservations.

D & C 121:37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

Following at the end of responding to these points is an example that indicates that while words may not be specifically spoken under the influence of the spirit the person speaking may reveal information for which they are the authority and it is compelling to the point of correcting mistaken notions of being guided by the spirit.

Finrock #4 No man speaks for God without the Spirit.

Need source material for this thought to consider.

Finrock #5 Nothing is scripture if it isn't from the Spirit.

True Nonetheless that does not speak to the fact that one person claiming the spirit may understand a scripture differently than another who also claims the spirit.

Finrock, I think this point should be most clear to you. You continue to be the best example I can recall which will illustrate the point and this references the thought I left in Finrock #3 that there are words of truth that can be spoken which we would not generally characterized as being spoken under the spirit which can be very compelling to clarifying correct understanding. There is scripture in Doctrine and Covenants 137:5 which discusses a vision that Joseph Smith had in which he saw his brother Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom:

D & C 137:5-9

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

When you read this set of scriptures it said something to you which you presumably took to be from the spirit. I quote from your responses:

Now, as far as what I'm speaking to, I'm speaking to only exactly what the scriptures that I've provided as proof for my words say. The scriptures plainly speak of categories of individuals who have not and will not be baptized by water, ever, in any way shape or form. It is only by adding to or taking away from the scriptures in question that one can make them say or read otherwise. But, in their simplest and purest reading, this is what they say. I don't have any other agenda other than to point out this scriptural fact. For anyone at this point to say or make a claim otherwise about what I'm saying or what I'm trying to do, will be bearing false witness against me.

D&C 137 plainly and simply says that Alvin was saved in the celestial kingdom without having been baptized for the remission of sins and it plainly and simply states that all people who have died or will die without having knowledge of the gospel but who would have accepted it had they been exposed to it, will be heirs of the celestial kingdom without being baptized for the remission of sins. This is what is plainly and obviously stated in D&C 137. For anyone to bring anything else in to the mix is a molestation of that scripture. Further, Moroni 8 plainly and simply states that children and those who are born without the law need not be baptized. Anyone who brings anything else in to the mix is molesting and altering the scriptures in question.

I'm sorry that this doesn't fit any paradigms or preconceived notions that one might have, but that is what the scriptures plainly and simply say. I didn't make it up and I'm not just teaching my own doctrine. I'm reading the scriptures and this is what they stated. So, if we are to accept the scriptures as written, we must accept that there are groups of individuals who do not need to be baptized by water in order to be saved in the celestial kingdom and by extension we can conclude that being baptized by water is not universally needed for all individuals in order to be saved in the celestial kingdom of God.

-Finrock

While you thought it was the spirit guiding your understandings it became quite the tussle to convince you of your mistaken notions. As adamant and demonstrative as you were to the contrary of proper interpretation, what is very significant is that you were able to overcome your mistaken inspirations on the very point that we are trying to make in this thread. Someone, who shall remain unnamed posted the words of a prophet which stated:

Finally on 15 August 1840, Joseph Smith preached the doctrine of baptism for the dead publicly for the first time in a sermon at the funeral of Seymour Brunson.

Four months later, he (Joseph Smith) mentioned this sermon in a letter to the members of the Quorum of the Twelve who were serving missions overseas. He wrote:

I presume the doctrine of "Baptism for the dead" has ere this reached your ears, and may have raised some inquiries in your mind respecting the same. I cannot in this letter give you all the information you may desire on the subject, but aside from my knowledge independent of the Bible, I would say, that this was certainly practiced by the ancient Churches and St Paul endeavors to prove the doctrine of the resurrection from the same, and says "else what shall they do who are baptized for the dead["] &c &c. I first mentioned the doctrine in public while preaching the funeral sermon of Bro Brunson, and have since then given general instructions to the Church on the subject. The saints have the privilege of being baptized for those of their relatives who are dead, who they feel to believe would have embraced the gospel if they had been privileged with hearing it, and who have received the gospel in the spirit through the instrumentality of those who may have been commissioned to preach to them while in prison.

Less than one month after first preaching this doctrine publicly, Joseph was called to the bed of his aged father, who was rapidly declining in health. Joseph's mother would later recall that during this bedside interview, Joseph "informed his father, that it was then the privilege of the saints to be baptized for the dead." She would also remember that her dying husband "was delighted to hear [this fact], and requested, that Joseph should be baptized for Alvin immediately; and, as he expected to live but a short time, desired that his children would stay with him as much as they could consistently."

Before long, the baptismal work for Alvin would be completed, meeting the scriptural requirement and finally making possible what Joseph had seen in vision in 1836--that Father Smith and his son Alvin that would be together in the celestial kingdom. https://cfhg.byu.edu/pdf/firesides/2001-11-09.pdf

These words by the prophet Joseph Smith are him referring to a doctrine which was inspired by the spirit. However, typically we would not consider these words of a prophet as spoken under the direction of the spirit. Nonetheless, the way that he ties these words into the verse of scripture from D & C 137 made it very clear to you that you had been mistaken and wrong in your interpretation of scripture. Additionally, since Joseph has not grieved the spirit as D & C 121 qualifies as the point of loss of authority he speaks this words recollected from his own mind while still in the authority of being a prophet where he is expounding upon earlier revelation. And these words were sufficient to disabuse any individual teaching false doctrine that baptism was not required for entry into the Celestial Kingdom for those who have reached the age of accountability as had Alvin.

The point and examples provided to illustrate that points Finrock #1 - Finrock #5 need to be flushed out more fully before anyone can get on board and sustain them and the examples illustrate that there are additional means in which a prophet words can simply be sourced from his own authority and yet reveal truth.

As for President Monson and where he gets his inspiration from it is clear that he gets his the same way that we all do by becoming familiar with the words of scripture and earlier prophets and allowing the spirit to illuminate those things to him just as we do. However, there is one more caveat to this that we will let President Joseph Fielding Smith speak to:

When one of the brethren stands before a congregation of the people today, and the inspiration of the Lord is upon him, he speaks that which the Lord would have him speak. It is just as much scripture as anything you will find written in any of these records, and yet we call these the standard works of the Church. We depend, of course, upon the guidance of the brethren who are entitled to inspiration.

There is only one man in the Church at a time who has the right to give revelation for the Church, and that is the President of the Church. But that does not bar any other member in this Church from speaking the word of the Lord, as indicated here in this revelation, section 68, but a revelation that is to be given as these revelations are given in this book, to the Church, will come through the presiding officer of the Church; yet, the word of the Lord, as spoken by other servants at the general conferences and stake conferences, or wherever they may be when they speak that which the Lord has put into their mouths, is just as much the word of the Lord as the writings and the words of other prophets in other dispensations. (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:186.)

Additionally, Harold B. Lee actually provides a brilliant caveat for the fact that the current prophet of the church is not bound by his words spoken under the spirit being required to be sustaining of scripture:

It is not to be thought that every word spoken by the General Authorities is inspired, or that they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost in everything they read and write. Now you keep that in mind. I don’t care what his position is, if he writes something or speaks something that goes beyond anything that you can find in the standard church works, unless that one be the prophet, seer, and revelator—please note that one exception—you may immediately say, ‘Well, that is his own idea.’ And if he says something that contradicts what is found in the standard church works (I think that is why we call them ‘standard’—it is the standard measure of all that men teach), you may know by that same token that it is false, regardless of the position of the man who says it.” (Lee, Harold B., The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator [address delivered to seminary and institute of religion faculty, 8 July 1964], p. 14.)

Finally, these words by President J. Rueben Clark

How shall we know when the things they have spoken were said as they were ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost?

I have given some thought to this question, and the answer thereto so far as I can determine, is: We can tell when the speakers are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’ only when we, ourselves, are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak.” (When Are the Writings or Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Scripture? [address delivered to seminary and institute of religion personnel, 7 July 1954], p. 7.)

While it shifts the burden to us, it does not mean that simple claims of proper interpretation of scripture can be claimed as sourced from the spirit if the same limitation applies to us as applies to all others except the acting prophet himself. He alone may seemingly disagree with scripture but we like all others can check our own inspirations, by comparing them to the scriptures and the words of the prophets and apostles. Imagine if the individual above who had such mistaken notions concerning Baptism for the dead had simply taken John 3:5 at face value:

John 3:5

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Well I think it could have made a big difference in terms of mistaken understandings.

[brlenox]

Thank you for sharing LDS Anarchist. Your and my revelations seem to be of the same kind. I, more than most people, know the damaging effects of following an emotional revelation. I basically ruined my teenage years and was almost thrown out of college for “stalking” (I wasnt) because I believed I had received revelation that I would marry a girl. The revelation was me crying in bed for no reason, and church culture tells us that is the spirit, when indeed it is not. People say “wait 15 minutes kneeling with your eyes closed after a prayer to receive revelation,” and it’s honestly sad how many people vehemently defend that because a prophet had that experience once.

Quotes from "church culture".

You don't have to cry about the gospel to have a testimony! Many times we think that we don't have a testimony unless a few tears flow. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is not necessary or needful for a person to have tears streaming down his face to have a testimony of the gospel. I went to a meeting with Spencer W. Kimball and a man got up and bore his testimony and he cried all the way through it. After the meeting, Brother Kimball called him over and said, "Brother, I wish you'd stop crying when you bear your testimony. You don't have to do that to tell the people you love the Lord." (Alvin R. Dyer, Berlin, Germany, Unpublished Address, Church Historical Document, 25 March 1961 PP.12-13.)

Let me offer a word of caution on this subject. I think if we are not careful as professional teachers working in the classroom every day, we may begin to try to counterfeit the true influence of the Spirit of the Lord by unworthy and manipulative means. I get concerned when it appears that strong emotion or free-flowing tears are equated with the presence of the Spirit. Certainly the Spirit of the Lord can bring strong emotional feelings, including tears, but that outward manifestation ought not be confused with the presence of the Spirit itself. I have watched a great many of my brethren over the years and we have shared some rare and unspeakable spiritual experiences together. Those experiences have all been different, each special in its own way, and such sacred moments may or may not be accompanied by tears. Very often they are, but sometimes they are accompanied by total silence. Other times they are accompanied by joy. Always they are accompanied by a great manifestation of the truth, of revelation to the heart. Give your students gospel truth powerfully taught; that is the way to give them a spiritual experience. Let it come naturally and as it will, perhaps with the shedding of tears, but perhaps not. If what you say is the truth, and you say it purely and with honest conviction, those students will feel the spirit of the truth being taught them and will recognize that inspiration and revelation has come into their hearts. That is how we build faith. That is how we strengthen testimonies--with the power of the word of God taught in purity and with conviction. (Howard W. Hunter, "Eternal Investments," Address Given to CES Personnel, 10 February 1989, Salt Lake City, p. 3.)