War with the Saints?

[Love]

What we might Expect in the Next Twenty-Five Years
by W. Cleon Skousen
THE REVELATION OF THE APOSTLE JOHN

JOHN BEGINS DESCRIBING MODERN TIMES AFTER THE OPENING OF THE SEVENTH SEAL

Now John is ready to transfer his attention from the five chapters outlining the preparations in heaven for the Second Coming and concentrate on the unfolding of these events on earth. All of these events are controlled by the factor of “time.” He therefore defines the period in which these events will occur. John says:

“And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.”

WHAT HAPPENS IN HEAVEN DURING THE HALF HOUR OF SILENCE?

In the next five chapters John tells us of the careful and precise assignment of the angels in heaven so the earth can be cleansed of all wickedness and prepared for the Second Coming.

Here is a brief summary of each of these chapters.

Chapter 8. After the seventh seal is opened, the first four angels receive their assignments to cleanse certain portions of the earth.

Chapter 9. The fifth and sixth angels are assigned their ministry of cleansing the earth but they are not ‘to torment or destroy those who have the “seal of God in their foreheads.” (verse 4) This probably refers to those who are under the Lord’s covenant, or members of the church. However, all others will be tormented until they “seek death and shall not find it.” (verse 6) But in the end over a third of mankind will be destroyed. (verse 15) During the raging wars over two hundred million men will be under arms. (verse 16) There is an amazingly accurate description of the highly mechanized instruments of war that will be employed. (verses 17-19) Nevertheless, in spite of all this period of turmoil and bloodshed the people not only refuse to repent but become more depraved and debauched than ever. (verse 20-21)

It will be recalled that when Joseph Smith was asked the specific time when the 144,000 would be foreordained and sealed he said: “In the sixth thousand years or the opening of the sixth seal.” 23 but later Joseph Smith was asked, “When are the devastating things to be accomplished which are written in the 9th chapter,” he replied: “After the opening of the seventh seal, before the coming of Christ.” 24 as we shall see later, the coming of the ten lost tribes and the ministry of the 144,000 to every nation just before the Second Coming, all occur after the opening of the seventh seal.

Chapter 10. The seventh angel (identified in verse 7) holds up a little book whereupon seven thunders roar out a message which John was forbidden to record. (verse 4)

When Joseph Smith was asked what this little book represented, he said:

“We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is the Elias, who, as it is written must come and restore all things.” 25

During the June Conference of 1831 Joseph Smith revealed that John the Beloved was already among the ten tribes of Israel who had been led away by Shalmaneser, king of Assyria, to prepare for their return from the long dispersion. 26

This is not referring to the remnants of Israel scattered among the various nations, but that supremely righteous segment of the Ten Tribes whom Moses said eventually would be gathered in from the “outmost parts of heaven.” 27

chapter 11. This is a heavenly vision of the climax to the second worldwide dictatorship. It will culminate in the great battle of Armageddon which we will discuss later.

chapter 12. This chapter provides the background for the fall of Lucifer and his hosts after the war in heaven. John says it was there that the righteous fought against Satan “by their word and their testimony” trying to persuade the confused and uncommitted spirits to support Christ’s gospel plan. In the end, two-thirds rallied behind Jehovah but one-third supported Satan and were cast out into the mortal earth. (verses 7-11)

John depicts the Saints of God as being like “a woman clothed with the sun.” (verse 1) John looks back through the centuries and realizes that because of Satan’s persecution of God’s kingdom there would be “a time and times and half a time” (verse 14) when the woman would have to flee into hiding. This would be off and on throughout the 3,500 years incorporated in the dispensation of Joseph, Moses and the apostles. John saw that not until 1,830 A.D. would the woman of the Church of Jesus Christ come forth in all her power and glory. Then John says:

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (God’s servants in the latter days] which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (verse 17)

It will be appreciated that the previous five chapters are describing the elaborate structure of the angelic forces in heaven to prepare for the mighty contest that will take place on the earth after the opening of the sixth and seventh seals. John wants us to know that during this contest Satan will lay the foundation for two worldwide dictatorships. Now we are ready for Revelation, chapter thirteen.

THE RISE OF THE FIRST WORLDWIDE DICTATORSHIP AS SEEN BY JOHN

Beginning with Revelation, chapter 13, John is talking about event which unfold on the earth after the opening of the seventh seal and the beginning of the half hour of silence in heaven referred to earlier.

John says the first worldwide dictatorship will come into its full dimension of power shortly after the year 2,000 but its beginning will be during the sixth seal. It is not a single dictatorship, but a coalition of nations. Here is how John describes it:

“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.” 29

The reference to HIS horns and HIS heads demonstrates that these nations were a unified coalition. We do not know why seven heads would have ten horns and ten crowns unless three of these nations had colonial dominions.

John leaves no doubt that this monster rising out of the sea was a Satanicinstitution. Speaking of the monster as a united entity, John says “the dragon” gave him his power and his seat of authority. 30

John describes the figurative symbols used by God, and says this dictatorship had the sinister cunning of a leopard, the feet and claws of a bear, and the teeth and mouth of a lion.

IS THERE ANY MILITARY OR POLITICAL ENTITY THAT SEEMS TO FIT THIS DESCRIPTION?

Since the opening of the seventh seal is upon us, has any military or political entity been emerging which seems to reflect any of these characteristics?

An apostle has warned that there is. For many years J. Reuben Clark, former U.S. Under-Secretary of State and a member of the First Presidency of the LDS Church, had been sounding the alarm.

He first became concerned when President Franklin D. Roosevelt and Prime Minister Winston Churchill signed the Atlantic Treaty on a U.S. cruiser off the coast of Newfoundland in August, 1941. Of course, who might have suspected that this might be the beast John saw rising out of the sea? It was viewed by most people as merely a mutual defense pact

However, World War II changed the whole world landscape and the United States came out of that terrible conflict as the new world leader with the Soviet Union a jealous and frantically obsessed competitor.

There were several reasons why the United States forged into first place as a world leader. To begin with, her Wall Street bankers had invented a virtually unlimited “debt based” economy so – to a large extent – the U.S. generously financed the major part of the Allied war effort. Secondly she had out produced most of the rest of the world in planes, ships, tanks and military supplies. Third, she was far and away the leader in high technology although Russia, by stealing many of America’s top secrets, was not far behind.

World War II ended in 1945, but by 1949, Russia had muscled and maneuvered her way into dominating approximately 1/3 of the entire planet. Europe, Asia and Latin America looked to the United States to prevent further Communist expansion.

Thus it was on April 4, 1948, that the United States, Britain and certain other countries dangerously threatened by the Soviet Union, signed THE NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY. It provided that if the Soviets attacked ONE member of the treaty it was an attack against ALL. This pact contained a score of blatant violations of the U.S. Constitution, nevertheless, to a large extent the new NATO treaty was popular, but not with J. Reuben Clark.

After he studied the document he gave a thundering warning which was first heard by the Trust Division of the American Bankers Association on August 17, 1949. He said:

“The North Atlantic Treaty, recently passed, is a military alliance pure and simple. It is what our forefathers called an ‘entangling alliance.'” 31

This entire speech was filled with fiery quotations from the American Founding Fathers predicting disastrous results if the United States ever allowed itself to be trapped within an international conglomerate of interdependent alliances.

Of course, the North Atlantic Treaty was just the beginning.

THE EVOLUTION OF NATO TOWARD A NEW WORLD ORDER

Nevertheless, the United States – as the principal defense against, the Soviet Union – began to look upon itself as the policeman of the world. Consequently, the State Department managed the next two major wars and they were disastrous. The Korean War has been described as the worst-managed war in the history of the United States and the Vietnam War is the only war the United States ever lost.

As a result of these and other fiascos, Ronald Reagan was elected President in 1980. He got the backing of both parties and spent two trillion dollars building America back up to the most powerful nation on earth.

The Soviet Union tried to compete with the United States but finally went bankrupt and in 1989 the whole Soviet Union fell apart. Russia became an isolated, despondent, disorganized non-entity, and the Cold War was over.

Now we go back to John who saw something amazing happen. He says:

“And I saw one of his heads as [if] were wounded to death; and his DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED: and all the world wondered after the beast.

“And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying Who is like unto the beast? WHO IS ABLE TO MAKE WAR WITH HIM?” 32

One of the amazing things about the Cold War was the fact that the Soviet Union was crushed into near annihilation. It was completely fragmented and left with only the original, isolated Russia as a wounded remnant of what had been a world super-power. Never had there been such a golden opportunity to require the Soviets to disarm, defuse or destroy her intercontinental ballistic missiles, get her factories converted over to domestic production and launch a massive road construction so her farmers could get the vast food supply from the muddy Russian fields to the central markets. But none of this happened. John saw what did happen.

The United Nations extended a generous helping hand to the Soviet Union – which had previously set out to conquer the world – and used the resources of the free world to begin building her up again. Eventually, this bloody head that was saved by the rest of the UN may prove to be once more the most dangerous facet of the first world dictatorship.

So the coalition of many heads and horns John saw in vision, will continue to strengthen itself until it becomes a world-wide dictatorship of ruthless proportions. It will dominate the whole human race for 3.5 years. This is still future.

THE NEW WORLD ORDER BECOMES A REALITY

The Soviet Union began to desperately urge her former allies to continue the Communist expansion program. On August 2, 1990, the dictator of Iraq – with Soviet encouragement- overran and occupied an oil-rich neighbor, Kuwait. The UN Security Council set a deadline for Saddam Hussein and his forces to retire and when it was ignored, the UN called upon all its members to enforce the UN decree.

George Bush was the new President and he had always favored a New World Order to enforce justice and peace. He looked upon the crisis in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia as an ideal opportunity to show what the policeman of the world, acting in the name of the United Nations, could do to give itself credibility. Therefore, without following the requirements of the Constitution, he asked Congress to ratify a UN resolution and the next thing the country knew, half a million Americans were in the PersianGulf War.

A gigantic, massive air attack ended the war after a few days and its success established the precedent J. Reuben Clark had hoped would never happen. From this point on the President the United States as commander in chief would look upon any UN decree as an order to take “police” action. But the Persian Gulf War was the only success so far. It didn’t happen in Somalia, Bosnia, or Yugoslavia.

THE PATTERN IS ESTABLISHED AND JOHN SAW THE FUTURE

“And there was given unto him [of the many kingdoms collectively] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue FORTY AND TWO MONTHS.” 33

So the first dictatorship reaches a point where it dominates the world and sustains the ongoing society of immorality, abortion, non-religious education, high crimes and misdemeanors for which even the President could not be impeached even though he was finally forced to confess what he had done, and the House found him guilty of two counts. However, the Senate did not have enough support to convict him because under the 17th Amendment the Senators had to face a popular election and too many of the Senators felt the President was supported by most of the people so that if they impeached him they might not be re-elected themselves. (Under the original Constitution, Senators were appointed by the state legislatures to protect the Constitution and states rights. This was changed in 1915.)

And so, as John says, it will continue until at some point the first dictatorship will attain a position of absolute power for three-and-a-half years. Then an amazing thing will happen.

THE FIRST DICTATORSHIP WILL MAKE A DEADLY MISTAKE

However, at this point, John saw that the first dictatorship would make a lethal mistake which will eventually wipe it out of existence. Here is what happens:

“And he [beast or dictator] opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

“And it was given unto him to make WAR AGAINST THE Saints and to OVERCOME them: and power was given him over all mankind, and tongues and nations.” 34

FROM THIS POINT ON, THE FIRST DICTATORSHIP WILL DRIFT INTO OBLIVION

Just as John’s account reaches a point of supreme suspense with the monster declaring war against the Saints – and overcoming them – John tells us the first dictatorship has been obliterated.

But what happened? He doesn’t tell us what happened! He simply closes the account of the first dictatorship with this rather amazing philosophical comment:

“If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” 35

In other words, the first dictatorship has disintegrated into ashes and the faith of the saints is vindicated.

But what brought this about after the first dictatorship turned on the Saints and overpowered them?

Perhaps John left out this vital part of his story so it could be told by his Master. In any event we now have the whole story in the Book of Mormon, and it probably gives us far greater details than John could have provided.

THE RESURRECTED JESUS TELLS WHAT HAPPENS TO THE FIRST DICTATORSHIP

When the resurrected Jesus appeared to his “other sheep” on the American continent in 34 A.D., he talked a lot about America in the latter days. He talked about the Gentiles coming from Europe and setting up the first free people in modern times. He talked about their riches and their power. But he also talked about their wickedness . He said the pure original gospel would be restored among them but unless they embraced it as a people, America would be entirely cleansed of its gentile wickedness and this continent would be largely depopulated.

Here is the way Jesus said it:

“And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret combinations, and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I WILL BRING THE FULNES MY GOSPEL FROM AMONG THEM.” 36

After reading what to expect in the next 25 years from Skousen, I wonder if the 23rd of Sept. starts the war with the Saints from the first dictatorship. Any thoughts ?

[Love]

https://www.latterdayconservative.com/w ... ive-years/

Here is the full transcript of Skousen

(Source: (W. Cleon Skousen, First presented in Ogden, Utah, April 10, 1999))

[Michelle]

I did not see a date on this document, when is the 25 years suppose to have started?

This is probably not going to be popular, but I disagree with Skousen's interpretation just based on its content. I don't have any reason to believe he is not honest in his intent, but this is not the interpretation I understand when I read the words of the prophets and scriptures directly. I believe if we lack wisdom, we are to ask God, including searching what he has already revealed to his prophets in their own words not just quotes that may be taken out of context, even unintentionally.

Might I suggest we quit looking to those who have not been ordained to be "prophets, seers and revelators" and instead study more diligently what the prophets HAVE said, the actual canonized scriptures, and use the Holy Ghost to have revealed to us what the Lord is teaching. We would also have to trust that the Lord's timing for revealing his interpretation would be based on his wisdom and our ability to discern when we should or should not share what he has taught us.

[Gage]

Saints dont care about scriptures or much of what the Prophet says, they want to hear from men and women that claim to have seen Christ and talk to him every evening, that write books about dreams they have and doom and destruction the Lord shows them. See Christ bypasses the true and living Prophet of his Church and instead shows these visions and dreams to these folks that write books, these are the select that he has chosen to warn his people,I thought everyone knew that.

[Love]

When I read scripture I want to understand what they say, not just read them. I only look to others because I am weak of mind. I wish I was scholarly. I look at possiblities, it's a hobbie.

[Love]

I did not see a date on this document, when is the 25 years suppose to have started?

(Source: (W. Cleon Skousen, First presented in Ogden, Utah, April 10, 1999))

[Love]

Saints dont care about scriptures or much of what the Prophet says, they want to hear from men and women that claim to have seen Christ and talk to him every evening, that write books about dreams they have and doom and destruction the Lord shows them. See Christ bypasses the true and living Prophet of his Church and instead shows these visions and dreams to these folks that write books, these are the select that he has chosen to warn his people,I thought everyone knew that.

Joel 2:28
"It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.

Acts 2:16
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

Acts 2:18
Even on My servants, both men and women, I will pour out of My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Acts 2:33
Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

You can't discredit everyone.

[Michelle]

Saints dont care about scriptures or much of what the Prophet says, they want to hear from men and women that claim to have seen Christ and talk to him every evening, that write books about dreams they have and doom and destruction the Lord shows them. See Christ bypasses the true and living Prophet of his Church and instead shows these visions and dreams to these folks that write books, these are the select that he has chosen to warn his people,I thought everyone knew that.

Joel 2:28
"It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.

Acts 2:16
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

Acts 2:18
Even on My servants, both men and women, I will pour out of My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Acts 2:33
Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

You can't discredit everyone.

Agreed, but thus far the Spirit has been pretty direct with me about who to listen to and who to ignore and hasn't yet steered me wrong. I have seen a lot of friends and acquaintances leave the Church over the current crop of false prophesies and prophets and very few come back so far.

He has also been very clear that the current course is to follow only those prophets and apostles he has called and we have sustained thus far.

[Love]

Postby Michelle » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:45 am


You can't discredit everyone.
Agreed, but thus far the Spirit has been pretty direct with me about who to listen to and who to ignore and hasn't yet steered me wrong. I have seen a lot of friends and acquaintances leave the Church over the current crop of false prophesies and prophets and very few come back so far.

He has also been very clear that the current course is to follow only those prophets and apostles he has called and we have sustained thus far.

Sad.

[Michelle]

When I read scripture I want to understand what they say, not just read them. I only look to others because I am weak of mind. I wish I was scholarly. I look at possiblities, it's a hobbie.

I do too. That is why I don't want a watered down or polluted interpretation, I want to

ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not"

The point isn't to be more "scholarly," that is trusting in the arm of flesh. The point is to be closer to the Spirit. Reading the scriptures is like reading a foreign language. The best way to learn is to immerse yourself in them and learn to understand both the words that are written and the language of the Spirit that interprets them for us.

“But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise: and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.” (1 Cor. 1:27.)

[Love]

As I’ve said before on another thread, I believe we are in the 42 month countdown of which John and Daniel speak.

I was interested in what you think of the War with the Saints?

[Love]

There is exactly 40 days between the eclipse on 8/21 and Yom Kippur next Saturday. The Lord gave Nineveh 40 days to repent through Jonah. The NFL is too proud to salute the nation founded by God that have them the freedom to make themselves rich by playing a game with a pigskin ball. Benotdeceived has said he believes 7 years of prosperity is beginning. Might could be. 7 years of tribulation seems more fitting.

I was hoping for your opinion.

[Love]

]

A lot of people are seeing the signs of the times happening today.

And I had a thought too on why some people don't. They aren't bad people. A lot of them are wonderful people. But some are unaware.

1) A lot of people aren't reading the scriptures everyday. (I don't mean anyone here and I don't mean to be offensive. Please don't take it that way.) 2) Another thing too that's making it harder for people to accept and see in the signs it that people are less connected to the land than they used to be. By that I mean nobody grows their own food and is completely self sufficient anymore. They don't have control over their lives so partly they don't WANT to see what's going on. People that are more self sufficiently are instinctively shown that something is wrong with the land and the weather right now repeatedly everyday. They are involved in the whole process of how to support themselves from start to finish.

For example I had gardening crops growing still until Thanksgiving weekend last here. And three out of the last five years I was still growing stuff in Utah until almost end of November. That's crazy. It shouldn't be like that. When I was a kid it would usually snow around end of September. This year too everybody I know with gardens in my area has taken a huge hit on vegetable production too. I have probably 40 tomato plants in my garden and they just aren't producing fruit at all even though I have good soil! I got my first batch of tomatoes about 2 weeks ago when i should have been having baskets full of them by then. My friend using miracle grow more than he should is also not getting hardly anything this year. And then there's a weird cold snap this year early, and a late start. What I mean by this is that all the seasons are completely offed. And when you are being self sufficient you notice when things are going the way they should. Heck, I'm twice as organized this year as I was last year on self sufficiency but its still not going anywhere.

Where I meant to go with this....when people don't have control of self sufficiency's process its harder for us to see what's going on. We also don't want to see that somethings wrong because we're already stressed out that we aren't involved in the whole process of start to finish supporting ourselves. We can still be nice people and be working a job, but we're only doing one small part of the process over and over. Maybe our job is like the third stage in making a product and we don't see everything going on in the 1st and 2nd stages. There might be more stages after ours before the products we make at work are finally done. And more and more people are put into situations like this where we don't get a full view of how much is going on in the processes from start to finish and this can blind us temporally. So when we're blinded, even though its not our fault, we don't get a full spectrum of all the signals that are happening right before our very eyes.

Yes!

Some people are seeing the signs and reading thier scriptures everyday. We are interested in what they mean, Yes we look to the Prophets to give us truth. But sharing thoughts and scriptures on this site doesn't mean we are starting our own Church, I just think others might have more insight than me. Like a Bishop or teacher. God helps those who help themselves and often answers prayers through others.

[Alaris]

There is exactly 40 days between the eclipse on 8/21 and Yom Kippur next Saturday. The Lord gave Nineveh 40 days to repent through Jonah. The NFL is too proud to salute the nation founded by God that have them the freedom to make themselves rich by playing a game with a pigskin ball. Benotdeceived has said he believes 7 years of prosperity is beginning. Might could be. 7 years of tribulation seems more fitting.

I was hoping for your opinion.

I appreciate that, and I'll dive in and get my hands dirty when I get a moment. friendsofthe studies these timelines a lot more than I, and though I don't see eye to eye on everything he writes, he's certainly opened my mind to some cool possibilities; however, he can be a bit close minded to other interpretations. That's sort of the underlying problem here on LDSFF and in our culture in general really. We have a culture of close mindedness, even in the church. Few realize that this mindset would have left them blind to see Jesus Christ at his first coming, let alone Joseph Smith. Those who embraced Joseph Smith were believers by nature not doubters, naysayers, and skeptics. Few are willing to be wrong to learn what is right. The Lord can only do so much to pry open a closed eyes and a closed heart.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

I have been focusing my study on uncovering the mysteries of eternal progression, and those mysteries have shined a light on new ways to look at some of these prophesied events for me personally. I'd love to discuss them here wouldn't you? It sure would be nice to discuss the endless depths and possibilities of the scriptures and prophecies in the scriptures without attempts at being shut down "because it's dangerous." Wouldn't it be nice to discuss possibilities and even discuss predictions without someone warning us how dangerous it is to be following this scripture:

1 Nephi 10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

There are plenty of scriptures that show that some mysteries are not had and are withheld from the people, which is why I am always careful to check with the spirit - the same spirit Michelle mentioned - before sharing or discussing. So, thank you Michelle for the intent behind your words. Certainly there is wisdom in your words. However, I don't think the prophets and apostles would approve of us stifling conversations about how the end time events may unfold. Nobody is starting a religion here that I am aware of.

Jesus Himself codes mysteries that are meant to be unveiled ... how? Let's see!

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

We have to see, hear, and understand? How do we do that - by not waxing our heart gross.... and Moroni laid out an amazing way to open our eyes, ears, and heart:

Moroni 7:15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.
20 And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing?
21 And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thing.
22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.
23 And God also declared unto prophets, by his own mouth, that Christ should come.
24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.

I have a testimony of modern day apostles and prophets. I also have a testimony of the ancient prophets. However I am not so cynical as to believe that discussing the mysteries will get us into trouble where we will apostatize. Those who apostatize over "mysteries" are using them as an excuse to follow their own way whether it is to follow the lusts of the flesh or to gratify their own pride as is the case with Denver Snuffer.

Following Moroni's advice above will keep you on the path - being open to being wrong is the only way to cast aside false presumptions, false conclusions, and mistaken understanding. Do not let your heart wax gross!

[Love]

John depicts the Saints of God as being like “a woman clothed with the sun.” (verse 1) John looks back through the centuries and realizes that because of Satan’s persecution of God’s kingdom there would be “a time and times and half a time” (verse 14) when the woman would have to flee into hiding. This would be off and on throughout the 3,500 years incorporated in the dispensation of Joseph, Moses and the apostles. John saw that not until 1,830 A.D. would the woman of the Church of Jesus Christ come forth in all her power and glory. Then John says:

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (God’s servants in the latter days] which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (verse 17)

This is the text I'm highlighting most. About the Dragon making war with the Saints.

[Love]

There is exactly 40 days between the eclipse on 8/21 and Yom Kippur next Saturday. The Lord gave Nineveh 40 days to repent through Jonah. The NFL is too proud to salute the nation founded by God that have them the freedom to make themselves rich by playing a game with a pigskin ball. Benotdeceived has said he believes 7 years of prosperity is beginning. Might could be. 7 years of tribulation seems more fitting.

I was hoping for your opinion.

I appreciate that, and I'll dive in and get my hands dirty when I get a moment. friendsofthe studies these timelines a lot more than I, and though I don't see eye to eye on everything he writes, he's certainly opened my mind to some cool possibilities; however, he can be a bit close minded to other interpretations. That's sort of the underlying problem here on LDSFF and in our culture in general really. We have a culture of close mindedness, even in the church. Few realize that this mindset would have left them blind to see Jesus Christ at his first coming, let alone Joseph Smith. Those who embraced Joseph Smith were believers by nature not doubters, naysayers, and skeptics. Few are willing to be wrong to learn what is right. The Lord can only do so much to pry open a closed eyes and a closed heart.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

I have been focusing my study on uncovering the mysteries of eternal progression, and those mysteries have shined a light on new ways to look at some of these prophesied events for me personally. I'd love to discuss them here wouldn't you? It sure would be nice to discuss the endless depths and possibilities of the scriptures and prophecies in the scriptures without attempts at being shut down "because it's dangerous." Wouldn't it be nice to discuss possibilities and even discuss predictions without someone warning us how dangerous it is to be following this scripture:

1 Nephi 10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

There are plenty of scriptures that show that some mysteries are not had and are withheld from the people, which is why I am always careful to check with the spirit - the same spirit Michelle mentioned - before sharing or discussing. So, thank you Michelle for the intent behind your words. Certainly there is wisdom in your words. However, I don't think the prophets and apostles would approve of us stifling conversations about how the end time events may unfold. Nobody is starting a religion here that I am aware of.

Jesus Himself codes mysteries that are meant to be unveiled ... how? Let's see!

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

We have to see, hear, and understand? How do we do that - by not waxing our heart gross.... and Moroni laid out an amazing way to open our eyes, ears, and heart:

Moroni 7:15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.
20 And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing?
21 And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thing.
22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.
23 And God also declared unto prophets, by his own mouth, that Christ should come.
24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.

I have a testimony of modern day apostles and prophets. I also have a testimony of the ancient prophets. However I am no so cynical as to believe that discussing the mysteries will get us into trouble where we will apostatize. Those who apostatize over "mysteries" are using them as an excuse to follow their own way whether it is to follow the lusts of the flesh or to gratify their own pride as is the case with Denver Snuffer.

Following Moroni's advice above will keep you on the path - being open to being wrong is the only way to cast aside false presumptions, false conclusions, and mistaken understanding. Do not let your heart wax gross!

I agree thank you for your time.

[Alaris]

John depicts the Saints of God as being like “a woman clothed with the sun.” (verse 1) John looks back through the centuries and realizes that because of Satan’s persecution of God’s kingdom there would be “a time and times and half a time” (verse 14) when the woman would have to flee into hiding. This would be off and on throughout the 3,500 years incorporated in the dispensation of Joseph, Moses and the apostles. John saw that not until 1,830 A.D. would the woman of the Church of Jesus Christ come forth in all her power and glory. Then John says:

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (God’s servants in the latter days] which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (verse 17)

This is the text I'm highlighting most. About the Dragon making war with the Saints.

"Hiding in plain sight" is a great book I read about secret combinations in the last days, where the LDS author basically just took quotes from scriptures, modern day prophets, and quotes the modern day gadiantons or ex gadiantons themselves. I absolutely believe 9/23 was a sign, and I believe the devil and those who worship him in their wealth and power are lying in wait to devour. I believe the end times servant is hidden from them currently:

Isaiah 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

So the Lord says He has covered his servant in the shadow of His hand that he may plant the heavens and lay the foundations of the earth for ZION. So conversely, if the servant was not covered in the shadow of His hand then those objectives would be stifled.

Spaced_Out believes a crash is imminent. We've been sitting at zero percent interest at the Federal Reserve for a long time. It seems to me that perhaps this is the gadiantons laying out the rug just waiting for the first signs to appear of the coming of the kingdom of God, then they will pull out that rug and zero in on where the unveiling is and attack amidst all the chaos. Those are my speculative thoughts at the moment based off study and prayer, though that conclusion is my own speculation. If I say speculation three or four more times then hopefully I won't have to hear more nonsense about prophesies or "false predictions" - Should we fear to speculate because we may be wrong, or should we embrace the times we are wrong as opportunities for continued learning?

[Michelle]

I appreciate that, and I'll dive in and get my hands dirty when I get a moment. friendsofthe studies these timelines a lot more than I, and though I don't see eye to eye on everything he writes, he's certainly opened my mind to some cool possibilities; however, he can be a bit close minded to other interpretations. That's sort of the underlying problem here on LDSFF and in our culture in general really. We have a culture of close mindedness, even in the church. Few realize that this mindset would have left them blind to see Jesus Christ at his first coming, let alone Joseph Smith. Those who embraced Joseph Smith were believers by nature not doubters, naysayers, and skeptics. Few are willing to be wrong to learn what is right. The Lord can only do so much to pry open a closed eyes and a closed heart.

I do not intend to argue with you. I will however, at this time, defend myself against your charges. It isn't close minded to reject untruth and embrace truth. Believing things without the witness of the Holy Spirit leads to superstition. The honest in heart are never blind to the truth because it is the Spirit that teaches them. Any who were honest in heart would not be kept from knowing Jesus or Joseph, just because they reject superstition or false prophesy.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Your Isaiah scripture seems to support my position that there is safety in following the Lord and his servants, not the whims and notions of one's own limited understanding of God.

I have been focusing my study on uncovering the mysteries of eternal progression, and those mysteries have shined a light on new ways to look at some of these prophesied events for me personally. I'd love to discuss them here wouldn't you? It sure would be nice to discuss the endless depths and possibilities of the scriptures and prophecies in the scriptures without attempts at being shut down "because it's dangerous." Wouldn't it be nice to discuss possibilities and even discuss predictions without someone warning us how dangerous it is to be following this scripture:

1 Nephi 10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

I do not seek to shut down discussions. I am on this board precisely to engage in discussion. I can see no benefit, however, in speculation without a foundation of truth. You are free to discuss pretty much anything you like on this board. And I am free to share my understanding as well. You are free to ignore any warnings you like. Diligently seeking to know the mysteries of God comes only by studying the mysteries of God as revealed by God, not the philosophies of men.

I too seek to understand the mysteries of God. That is why I study God's word. But it is not my place to present as revelation to anyone what the Holy Ghost teaches me. I am in no way trying to convince you that you cannot read Skousen, or discuss what the meaning of the revelations given in the scriptures mean. I have shared in posts my understanding of many of the same scriptures. I am giving an answer to the topic at hand, which you are, of course, free to ignore. If you choose to engage in a discussion by responding to my post, you may expect that I will respond and continue the discussion.

There are plenty of scriptures that show that some mysteries are not had and are withheld from the people, which is why I am always careful to check with the spirit - the same spirit Michelle mentioned - before sharing or discussing. So, thank you Michelle for the intent behind your words. Certainly there is wisdom in your words. However, I don't think the prophets and apostles would approve of us stifling conversations about how the end time events may unfold. Nobody is starting a religion here that I am aware of.

I don't believe it is the intent of any on this topic to start a new religion, nor did I claim such. But we have seen in the recent past elevating an author to the status of prophet by those who do end up trying to start their own religion. I am simply encouraging the use of valid sources for such a discussion.

Jesus Himself codes mysteries that are meant to be unveiled ... how? Let's see!

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

We have to see, hear, and understand? How do we do that - by not waxing our heart gross.... and Moroni laid out an amazing way to open our eyes, ears, and heart:

Moroni 7:15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.
20 And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing?
21 And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thing.
22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.
23 And God also declared unto prophets, by his own mouth, that Christ should come.
24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.

I have a testimony of modern day apostles and prophets. I also have a testimony of the ancient prophets. However I am no so cynical as to believe that discussing the mysteries will get us into trouble where we will apostatize. Those who apostatize over "mysteries" are using them as an excuse to follow their own way whether it is to follow the lusts of the flesh or to gratify their own pride as is the case with Denver Snuffer.

Following Moroni's advice above will keep you on the path - being open to being wrong is the only way to cast aside false presumptions, false conclusions, and mistaken understanding. Do not let your heart wax gross!

[Alaris]

I do not intend to argue with you. I will however, at this time, defend myself against your charges. It isn't close minded to reject untruth and embrace truth. Believing things without the witness of the Holy Spirit leads to superstition. The honest in heart are never blind to the truth because it is the Spirit that teaches them. Any who were honest in heart would not be kept from knowing Jesus or Joseph, just because they reject superstition or false prophesy.

Actually that is incorrect. Read "Rough Stone Rolling" - a balance of superstition and faith was a key element to the foundation of the church.

Your Isaiah scripture seems to support my position that there is safety in following the Lord and his servants, not the whims and notions of one's own limited understanding of God.

It actually doesn't - not a single part of what you just said. Who is following whose whims and notions? Discussing the end times is not offering whims and notions to be followed.

I do not seek to shut down discussions. I am on this board precisely to engage in discussion. I can see no benefit, however, in speculation without a foundation of truth. You are free to discuss pretty much anything you like on this board. And I am free to share my understanding as well. You are free to ignore any warnings you like. Diligently seeking to know the mysteries of God comes only by studying the mysteries of God as revealed by God, not the philosophies of men.

You just did that with love who didn't seem too happy about it. She wanted to discuss Cleon Skousen's interpretation of scripture. Cleon Skousen is not a prophet or an apostle and nobody here is suggesting he his that I saw.

I too seek to understand the mysteries of God. That is why I study God's word. But it is not my place to present as revelation to anyone what the Holy Ghost teaches me. I am in no way trying to convince you that you cannot read Skousen, or discuss what the meaning of the revelations given in the scriptures mean. I have shared in posts my understanding of many of the same scriptures. I am giving an answer to the topic at hand, which you are, of course, free to ignore. If you choose to engage in a discussion by responding to my post, you may expect that I will respond and continue the discussion.

It's not your place to shut down people who wish to discuss their interpretations either. And you were absolutely in some way trying to convince others to not discuss Cleon Skousen - that was the whole point of your first post!

I don't believe it is the intent of any on this topic to start a new religion, nor did I claim such. But we have seen in the recent past elevating an author to the status of prophet by those who do end up trying to start their own religion. I am simply encouraging the use of valid sources for such a discussion.

I'm not even saying you're wrong about Cleon Skousen. I started to listen to some of his tapes on my mission and he just rubbed me wrong - like there was no balance in his life. Anyway, I am not suggesting he wasn't a good person or that he didn't uncover some awesome mysteries. I'm only trying to find some common ground here and suggest to you that you can offer your opinions without shaming people into sticking to just the words of modern day prophets when discussing end times events. Per that reasoning, nobody should be reading anybody's thoughts and feelings on the end times on LDSFF who isn't a prophet or apostle.

[GrandMasterB]

Interesting. I was thinking the same thing as I read this. In the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses?

[Michelle]

I do not intend to argue with you. I will however, at this time, defend myself against your charges. It isn't close minded to reject untruth and embrace truth. Believing things without the witness of the Holy Spirit leads to superstition. The honest in heart are never blind to the truth because it is the Spirit that teaches them. Any who were honest in heart would not be kept from knowing Jesus or Joseph, just because they reject superstition or false prophesy.

Actually that is incorrect. Read "Rough Stone Rolling" - a balance of superstition and faith was a key element to the foundation of the church.

Your Isaiah scripture seems to support my position that there is safety in following the Lord and his servants, not the whims and notions of one's own limited understanding of God.

It actually doesn't - not a single part of what you just said. Who is following whose whims and notions? Discussing the end times is not offering whims and notions to be followed.

I do not seek to shut down discussions. I am on this board precisely to engage in discussion. I can see no benefit, however, in speculation without a foundation of truth. You are free to discuss pretty much anything you like on this board. And I am free to share my understanding as well. You are free to ignore any warnings you like. Diligently seeking to know the mysteries of God comes only by studying the mysteries of God as revealed by God, not the philosophies of men.

You just did that with love who didn't seem too happy about it. She wanted to discuss Cleon Skousen's interpretation of scripture. Cleon Skousen is not a prophet or an apostle and nobody here is suggesting he his that I saw.

I too seek to understand the mysteries of God. That is why I study God's word. But it is not my place to present as revelation to anyone what the Holy Ghost teaches me. I am in no way trying to convince you that you cannot read Skousen, or discuss what the meaning of the revelations given in the scriptures mean. I have shared in posts my understanding of many of the same scriptures. I am giving an answer to the topic at hand, which you are, of course, free to ignore. If you choose to engage in a discussion by responding to my post, you may expect that I will respond and continue the discussion.

It's not your place to shut down people who wish to discuss their interpretations either. And you were absolutely in some way trying to convince others to not discuss Cleon Skousen - that was the whole point of your first post!

I don't believe it is the intent of any on this topic to start a new religion, nor did I claim such. But we have seen in the recent past elevating an author to the status of prophet by those who do end up trying to start their own religion. I am simply encouraging the use of valid sources for such a discussion.

I'm not even saying you're wrong about Cleon Skousen. I started to listen to some of his tapes on my mission and he just rubbed me wrong - like there was no balance in his life. Anyway, I am in no way suggesting that he wasn't a good person or that he didn't uncover some awesome mysteries. I'm only trying to find some common ground here and suggest to you that you can offer your opinions without shaming people into sticking to just the words of modern day prophets when discussing end times events. Per that reasoning, nobody should be reading anybody's thoughts and feelings on the end times on LDSFF.

I am not trying to shame anyone, nor do I have the ability to shut down any discussion. I am not a moderator. Just a participant.

As for what you hear, and what I say. They are not always the same.

[Love]

I believe that the Woman clothed by the sun and the moon at her feet was a sign. Although I'm not sure all the specifics. I believe that the Church will be persecuted like the times of the early Saints. I see all the Good our leaders and people are doing and I wonder if the Dragon will be jealous. I like John for the "Hidden Servent" Those are some of my speculative thoughts.

[Love]

"Hiding in plain sight" is a great book I read about secret combinations in the last days, where the LDS author basically just took quotes from scriptures, modern day prophets, and quotes the modern day gadiantons or ex gadiantons themselves. I absolutely believe 9/23 was a sign, and I believe the devil and those who worship him in their wealth and power are lying in wait to devour. I believe the end times servant is hidden from them currently.

I'll try to look into this book it sounds interesting.

[Alaris]

"Hiding in plain sight" is a great book I read about secret combinations in the last days, where the LDS author basically just took quotes from scriptures, modern day prophets, and quotes the modern day gadiantons or ex gadiantons themselves. I absolutely believe 9/23 was a sign, and I believe the devil and those who worship him in their wealth and power are lying in wait to devour. I believe the end times servant is hidden from them currently.

I'll try to look into this book it sounds interesting.

I must have read the first edition. Below is the second edition:

https://deseretbook.com/p/hiding-plain- ... -paperback

The book was published after 9/11 but before the war in Iraq. The author stated his belief that "they" would be going after Iraq next to secure the oil fields.

[GrandMasterB]

I did not see a date on this document, when is the 25 years suppose to have started?

This is probably not going to be popular, but I disagree with Skousen's interpretation just based on its content. I don't have any reason to believe he is not honest in his intent, but this is not the interpretation I understand when I read the words of the prophets and scriptures directly. I believe if we lack wisdom, we are to ask God, including searching what he has already revealed to his prophets in their own words not just quotes that may be taken out of context, even unintentionally.

Might I suggest we quit looking to those who have not been ordained to be "prophets, seers and revelators" and instead study more diligently what the prophets HAVE said, the actual canonized scriptures, and use the Holy Ghost to have revealed to us what the Lord is teaching. We would also have to trust that the Lord's timing for revealing his interpretation would be based on his wisdom and our ability to discern when we should or should not share what he has taught us.

You may suggest but there is nothing wrong with reading and seeking out good books according to the Lord . I am sure that Cleon Skousen consulted the Lord to help him make sense of Revelations. Is he 100% accurate? I doubt it, but who is? There are thousands of interpretations of revelations out there. Alot of these people asked the Lord and they come up with different interpretations. At least Cleon does quote and consult what the prophets have said, both modern and ancient. I for one appreciate those who take the time to gather the many different testimonies and scriptures and organize them in one place. There are thousands of passages of scripture and quote from modern prophets. I wish I had the time to go through all this, but with my family obligations I am lucky to get scripture time in each night. Thanks to folks like Cleon and freindsofthe on this forum for helping us get the meat so we can more easily ponder these things in prayer and fasting.