The Signs of the Marred Servant

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Durzan
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The Signs of the Marred Servant

Post by Durzan »

:idea: A bit of background information: In another thread, Jesef outlined 3 general positions of people on the forum:

Position 1:
Jesef wrote: September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm IF the LDS Church & Brethren are still truly The Lord's chosen (despite any faults, frailties, or mistakes), then Denver Snuffer is truly out of line, he is truly apostate, and he is also pretending to speak for and represent Christ, and has set himself up with competing/opposing divine authenticity claims to the real/true priesthood authority and order of The Lord, i.e. God's kingdom on earth. This would make him little different than any other anti-LDS effort, for he actively criticizes and opposes The Lord's true servants. This would also mean that those who have followed and believed him are in large measure deceived and have cut themselves off from that kingdom (and from exaltation really) and turned against God and his servants - and would require them to repent by returning to said fold via the gate of re baptism (ironically).
Position 2:
Jesef wrote: September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm IF Denver Snuffer's claims and message are true, then the LDS Church is now totally rejected by The Lord, its Brethren are corrupt pretenders, its priesthood authority and ordinances revoked and invalid. This would mean exaltation is no longer available through it. LDS members who pass up this message and invitation to be re-baptized according to Denver's instructions and receive the covenant he claims The Lord has offered Gentiles through him, would be passing up the path to true salvation itself. They would be joining the vast number of Gentiles who are going to be rejected by The Lord and destroyed in the coming tribulations. They would be rejecting the eventual safety of ZION.
Position 3:
Jesef wrote: September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm The third option is that both of these Leaders'/Group's claims are not entirely true/real, leaving all kinds of other doors and options open.
I believe I fall into Position 3... but that is a very large door to be under... so here is a bit of clarification: I suspect that the keys still yet remain with the Church, and that the Brethren still hold all or at least most of their authority. However, it is also becoming clear to me that there is corruption of one kind or another seeping within or into the walls of the Church. To make matters worse... pride and stagnation has been set within the hearts of many among the membership... and that is not a good sign. I plead unto you my brethren, heed the words of our current Prophets and Apostles... for the time in which they have yet to preach upon this earth is limited.

With the Days of Tribulation almost upon us now, it seems clear to me the time is coming when the church will risk being torn apart by said corruption. We read that in Helaman and 3rd Nephi that it only took a few years for the church established among the nephites to go from being completely righteous to completely wicked... to the point where they were even stoning the prophets, and it all started with just a little bit of pride. Many here have pointed out that the Book of Mormon has a secondary purpose of acting as foreshadowing of our day... so, if that is the case then that means that one way or another, the Church itself is going to be in mortal peril. If our current leadership remains righteous, then they could very well be in significant danger from both the government and our own people in just the span of a few years. If they do not remain righteous, then it will cause a Great Schism within the church, and the church will be nearly torn asunder.

Yet the Lord will provide a way to weather the coming storm. The sign in the heavens that many of us have been discussing for the past couple of weeks (The one of the Virgin Giving Birth in Revelations 12) is one of the signs of way which the Lord will provide to signal the way for us to weather the coming days. The sign on 9/23 speaks of the coming of a young man who will be a forbearer to the Lord's second coming, even as John the Baptist was a forbearer to Christ's mortal ministry. This man is known by many names: the Josephite, the Archangel Raphael, Elias: the Son of the Morning, the Soul of Iron, The Last Prophet of the Last Dispensation, The Lord's Maverick, The Lord's Wild Card, and The Marred Servant.

The Marred Servant has several other signs and signature actions by which you can recognize him:
  1. He was one of the Great and Noble ones in the Premortal Realm. His loyalty and closeness to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ during the war in heaven earned him the title of Son of the Morning, taken from Lucifer when he was cast out. It is possible that the Marred Servant is actually the Archangel Raphael. (Personal Revelation revealed this... but I could also cite Abraham 3, as it seems to indicate that most prophets are chosen from among the Great and Noble Ones.)
  2. He will be a descendant of Joseph or Hyrum Smith, and thus be a descendant of Joseph who was sold into Egypt. He will also have the blood of Judah flowing through his veins. For this reason he shall be called the Josephite. (Personal Revelation combined with an alternative interpretation of Isaiah 11:1-5, & D&C 113:3-6.)
  3. He will take up the mantle of Joseph Smith, and finish what he started. At times, many will mistake him for being a resurrected Joseph Smith. Ultimately, this will result in the Restoration of All Things. For this reason he shall be called Elias. (Again, primary source is Personal Revelation. Related Scriptures would be dealing with Elias.)
  4. He will break conventional thought, tradition, and culture within the church. His relationship with the Father is so strong that conventional thought within the church cannot adequately explain it. Thus he shall be called the Lord's Maverick and the Lord's Wild Card. (Personal Revelation talking about stuff that would baffle most members and turn our understanding of the gospel on its head. Conjecture: The marred servant is someone who destroys tradition and sets things right. See the point about one of his names/titles being Raphael.)
  5. His faith and resolve will be unshakable... for this is the reason why he is known as the Soul of Iron. (Personal Revelation. Conjecture: you cannot do what he is going to do WITHOUT unshakable faith.)
  6. His eyes shall burn with azure fire when he preaches the gospel. (Personal Revelation. Conjecture: It is well documented in scripture that some prophets sometimes go through a physical change that manages to evoke fear in the wicked. Nephi was one of these prophets, and so too was Joseph Smith. It is reasonable to assume that the Marred Servant would have a similar ability. Eyes that glow with a flaming blue light would be one of the changes brought upon by the spirit when he is preaching.)
  7. His voice will be like a thundering lion to the wicked, while like a lamb to the righteous. In this voice will he urge many to repent. (Primarily personal revelation. But again, there are documented accounts in the scriptures of prophets speaking "in a loud voice," so this isn't entirely unprecedented either)
  8. Many will heed his voice, but many more will reject him. (Conjecture: In a day where most of the world is wicked and will harden their hearts, curse God and die, it only stands to reason that he would be rejected by many. Backed up by passages in Revelation.)
  9. He will be taught in the School of the Prophets, and will be legitimately ordained as an Apostle of the Lord. His ordination will seem to be a miracle to the body of the church. (Personal Revelation)
  10. He shall cleanse the church of any and all corruption, and bring us out of condemnation if we haven't already. (Personal Revelation: This goes back to the prompting that I posted about a while ago... the one where I relay that the church will only be brought fully out of condemnation when a righteous descendant of Joseph or Hyrum leads us as the prophet. Can possibly be backed up by the scriptures that tell of Christ cleansing the temple of the money changers. See #12)
  11. IF (and that is a big IF) the leadership ever falters or attempts to lead the church astray during his ministry, then he will risk excommunication to set things back on course. If that happens... expect him to stand directly before the Twelve and denounce them. Nevertheless, he will work within the bounds that the Lord set forth in the D&C, whenever possible. (This one is entirely due to Personal Revelation. Conjecture: There are procedures listed in the D&C that were put in place to legitimately remove prophets and apostles from authority... why would those processes be put in place if the Lord had no need to use them? See #12.)
  12. All that he does shall be done through legitimate means and authority... both within the church, and within God's Kingdom. (Conjecture: God's house is a house of order. Therefore, anything that the Marred Servant will do, he will do through the proper procedures and with the proper authority.)
  13. He shall be marred, both physically and spiritually, but the Lord shall preserve him and will heal him. For this reason shall he be called the Marred Servant. (3 Nephi 21:10. Conjecture: Spiritual comes before physical... therefore, he shall be spiritually marred before being physically marred)
  14. He will be comparable to many other prophets of old in both works and power, particularly Enoch. He will be comparable to Martin Luther with his desires. It is worth noting that many have stated their belief that Raphael may be Enoch... which makes this servant's comparison to him all the more apt.(Personal Revelation)
  15. The Lord's testimony of thunderings and lightnings shall come through him, as well as from the Lord's voice directly. (Amos 3:7, D&C 43:17-18. This one is fairly clear cut.)
  16. He shall have the miraculous gift to heal others as well as destroy. In fact, part of his mission is to heal the church as a surgeon would heal his patient through making a wound, removing a deadly tumor, then sealing up the wound. For this reason he will be called Raphael. (3 Nephi 21:10 indicates that the Marred Servant shall be healed by God after being marred more than any man.)
  17. He shall have many spiritual gifts... including that of Dreaming and Prophecy. These gifts will start out somewhat erratic in his life, but shall manifest individually and become refined through practice and the guidance of the hand of the Lord. This will progress at a slow and steady rate, to the point where he shall eventually have access to all spiritual gifts by the time the Lord comes. (Some Personal Revelation, but Mainly Conjecture: Some of the points mentioned above are clearly a form of spiritual gift, such as being a Soul of Iron.)
  18. He shall participate in the meeting on Adam Ondi Ahman, and shall be numbered among the 144,000. (Cojecture: With how much scriptural passages seem to refer to him, Joseph Smith, and the Davidic Servant, it is only natural to assume that he, and the other two as well, will be a part of the meeting with Adam and Christ, alongside all the other prophets and apostles.)
  19. He shall lead the members of the Church back to Independence Missouri and shall establish the city of Zion. He shall be alive and on the earth when Christ comes. Thus he shall be known as the Last Prophet of the Last Dispensation. (Personal Revelation)
  20. He shall stand on the Mount of Olives when Christ shall come (Personal Revelation: Might be literal or figurative.).
  21. He shall not taste of death, but shall instead be translated. (3 Nephi 21:10 mentions that this servant's life shall be in the Lord's hand; this can hint at translation. Personal Revelation confirms that he shall be translated.)
Additional Clarification: A good chunk of these signs I cite are due to personal revelation combined with a bit of conjecture... so your mileage may vary. Scriptures can and have provided me some additional insight into some of these notes... but said insight is limited. I am working on adding scriptural references and notes on what is personal revelation and conjecture. It will be in bold.
Last edited by Durzan on September 16th, 2017, 11:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.

dafty
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Re: The Signs of the Marred Servant

Post by dafty »

Durzan wrote: September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm A bit of background information: In another thread, Jesef outlined 3 general positions of people on the forum:

Position 1:
Jesef wrote: September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm IF the LDS Church & Brethren are still truly The Lord's chosen (despite any faults, frailties, or mistakes), then Denver Snuffer is truly out of line, he is truly apostate, and he is also pretending to speak for and represent Christ, and has set himself up with competing/opposing divine authenticity claims to the real/true priesthood authority and order of The Lord, i.e. God's kingdom on earth. This would make him little different than any other anti-LDS effort, for he actively criticizes and opposes The Lord's true servants. This would also mean that those who have followed and believed him are in large measure deceived and have cut themselves off from that kingdom (and from exaltation really) and turned against God and his servants - and would require them to repent by returning to said fold via the gate of re baptism (ironically).
Position 2:
Jesef wrote: September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm IF Denver Snuffer's claims and message are true, then the LDS Church is now totally rejected by The Lord, its Brethren are corrupt pretenders, its priesthood authority and ordinances revoked and invalid. This would mean exaltation is no longer available through it. LDS members who pass up this message and invitation to be re-baptized according to Denver's instructions and receive the covenant he claims The Lord has offered Gentiles through him, would be passing up the path to true salvation itself. They would be joining the vast number of Gentiles who are going to be rejected by The Lord and destroyed in the coming tribulations. They would be rejecting the eventual safety of ZION.
Position 3:
Jesef wrote: September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm The third option is that both of these Leaders'/Group's claims are not entirely true/real, leaving all kinds of other doors and options open.
I believe I fall into Position 3... but that is a very large door to be under... so here is a bit of clarification: I suspect that the keys still yet remain with the Church, and that the Brethren still hold all or at least most of their authority. However, it is also becoming clear to me that there is corruption of one kind or another seeping within or into the walls of the Church. To make matters worse... pride and stagnation has been set within the hearts of many among the membership... and that is not a good sign. I plead unto you my brethren, heed the words of our current Prophets and Apostles... for the time in which they have yet to preach upon this earth is limited.

With the Days of Tribulation almost upon us now, it seems clear to me the time is coming when the church will risk being torn apart by said corruption. We read that in Helaman and 3rd Nephi that it only took a few years for the church established among the nephites to go from being completely righteous to completely wicked... to the point where they were even stoning the prophets, and it all started with just a little bit of pride. Many here have pointed out that the Book of Mormon has a secondary purpose of acting as foreshadowing of our day... so, if that is the case then that means that one way or another, the Church itself is going to be in mortal peril. If our current leadership remains righteous, then they could very well be in significant danger from both the government and our own people in just the span of a few years. If they do not remain righteous, then it will cause a Great Schism within the church, and the church will be nearly torn asunder.

Yet the Lord will provide a way to weather the coming storm. The sign in the heavens that many of us have been discussing for the past couple of weeks is one of the signs of way which the Lord will provide to signal the way for us to weather the coming days. The sign on 9/23 speaks of the coming of a young man who will be a forbearer to the Lord's second coming, even as John the Baptist was a forbearer to Christ's mortal ministry. This man is known by many names: the Josephite, the Archangel Raphael, Elias: the Son of the Morning, the Soul of Iron, The Last Prophet of the Last Dispensation, The Lord's Maverick, The Lord's Wild Card, and The Marred Servant.

The Marred Servant has several other signs and signature actions by which you can recognize him:
  1. He was one of the Great and Noble ones in the Premortal Realm. His loyalty and closeness to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ during the war in heaven earned him the title of Son of the Morning, taken from Lucifer when he was cast out. It is possible that the Marred Servant is actually the Archangel Raphael.
  2. He will be a descendant of Joseph or Hyrum Smith, and thus be a descendant of Joseph who was sold into Egypt. He will also have the blood of Judah flowing through his veins. For this reason he shall be called the Josephite.
  3. He will take up the mantle of Joseph Smith, and finish what he started. At times, many will mistake him for being a resurrected Joseph Smith. Ultimately, this will result in the Restoration of All Things. For this reason he shall be called Elias.
  4. He will break conventional thought, tradition, and culture within the church. His relationship with the Father is so strong that conventional thought within the church cannot adequately explain it. Thus he shall be called the Lord's Maverick and the Lord's Wild Card.
  5. His faith and resolve will be unshakable... for this is the reason why he is known as the Soul of Iron.
  6. His eyes shall burn with azure fire when he preaches the gospel.
  7. His voice will be like a thundering lion to the wicked, while like a lamb to the righteous. In this voice will he urge many to repent.
  8. Many will heed his voice, but many more will reject him.
  9. He will be taught in the School of the Prophets, and will be legitimately ordained as an Apostle of the Lord. His ordination will seem to be a miracle to the body of the church.
  10. He shall cleanse the church of any and all corruption, and bring us out of condemnation if we haven't already. (This goes back to the prompting that I posted about a while ago... the one where I relay that the church will only be brought fully out of condemnation when a righteous descendant of Joseph or Hyrum leads us as the prophet.)
  11. IF (and that is a big IF) the leadership ever falters or attempts to lead the church astray during his ministry, then he will risk excommunication to set things back on course. If that happens... expect him to stand directly before the Twelve and denounce them. Nevertheless, he will work within the bounds that the Lord set forth in the D&C, whenever possible.
  12. All that he does shall be done through legitimate means and authority... both within the church, and within God's Kingdom.
  13. He shall be marred, both physically and spiritually, but the Lord shall preserve him and will heal him. For this reason shall he be called the Marred Servant.
  14. He will be comparable to many other prophets of old in both works and power, particularly Enoch. He will be comparable to Martin Luther with his desires. It is worth noting that many have stated their belief that Raphael may be Enoch... which makes this servant's comparison to him all the more apt.
  15. The Lord's testimony of thunderings and lightnings shall come through him, as well as from the Lord's voice directly. (Amos 3:7)
  16. He shall have the miraculous gift to heal others as well as destroy. In fact, part of his mission is to heal the church as a surgeon would heal his patient through making a wound, removing a deadly tumor, then sealing up the wound. For this reason he will be called Raphael.
  17. He shall have many spiritual gifts... including that of Dreaming and Prophecy. These gifts will start out somewhat erratic in his life, but shall manifest individually and become refined through practice and the guidance of the hand of the Lord. This will progress at a slow and steady rate, to the point where he shall eventually have access to all spiritual gifts by the time the Lord comes.
  18. He shall participate in the meeting on Adam Ondi Ahman, and shall be numbered among the 144,000.
  19. He shall lead the members of the Church back to Independence Missouri and shall establish the city of Zion. He shall be alive and on the earth when Christ comes. Thus he shall be known as the Last Prophet of the Last Dispensation.
  20. He shall not taste of death, but shall instead be translated.
hi, if its not too much work, could you please provide a quick reference to each of the bullet points you submitted? thanks

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Alaris
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Re: The Signs of the Marred Servant

Post by Alaris »

The Jewish "church" at the time of Christ was a lower order confined to the law of Moses with no Levitical authority. The end times servant will have the right to rule, though he may delegate the leadership of the LDS church, let's not forget that God's kingdom has a hierarchy. The woman is taken to the wilderness after the man child is born in Revelation 12. This could also mean that the LDS church is fulfilled much like the law of Moses was fulfilled at the time of Christ. There will likely be LDS who continue on as the Jews did, however the LDS church contains the keys and both priesthoods unlike the the Jews at the time of Christ. I fully expect the LDS church to embrace the end times servant who may then start a new organization - one designed for the time of the gathering rather than the time of the gentiles.
D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
This is someone with authority - not someone who is going to be skirting the edges of the church.

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Rensai
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Re: The Signs of the Marred Servant

Post by Rensai »

alaris wrote: September 13th, 2017, 4:01 pm The Jewish "church" at the time of Christ was a lower order confined to the law of Moses with no Levitical authority. The end times servant will have the right to rule, though he may delegate the leadership of the LDS church, let's not forget that God's kingdom has a hierarchy. The woman is taken to the wilderness after the man child is born in Revelation 12. This could also mean that the LDS church is fulfilled much like the law of Moses was fulfilled at the time of Christ. There will likely be LDS who continue on as the Jews did, however the LDS church contains the keys and both priesthoods unlike the the Jews at the time of Christ. I fully expect the LDS church to embrace the end times servant who may then start a new organization - one designed for the time of the gathering rather than the time of the gentiles.
D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
This is someone with authority - not someone who is going to be skirting the edges of the church.
I'm not so sure about that. If he is an LDS leader, it will certainly make it easy to appeal to the wheat among the LDS church, but I think there is a lot of wheat in mainstream Christianity and even some among atheists, agnostics, etc too, who reject mainstream religions because of some the flaws they all have. I think its more likely he will not be associated with any church so as to have a broader appeal to all and to remove himself from the stereotypes, false doctrines, etc that every church has associated with it. I do think he will have to believe in the Book of Mormon and probably is or was a member of the church at some time though. There is a ton of precedence for this in scripture. Many prophets came forth who were not part of the churches of their day. Anyway, just keep an open mind and don't get too locked into the idea that its going to be an LDS leader. In the end, it doesn't really matter which church he may or may not be a part of so much as it matters that we recognize him and accept his message from Christ. The stakes are high.
3 Nephi 21 wrote: 9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
Many will not believe, and if they do not, they will be cut off from among the people of the covenant and won't be in Zion. I think its best to keep an open mind and not get too set on our own expectations of what this guy is or is not. Whether he is a young kid, an old man, a big fat guy, a homeless guy, a Mormon, a Catholic or whatever, he is the Lords chosen servant for the last days and we best be looking out for him regardless of how he appears or what his background is. We know he will become marred and he will declare a marvelous work to us, he will likely perform other miracles or prophecy, but those are the signs we can be certain of. We've been given them for a good reason. When we look back on history in the scriptures, very few people have accepted Christ or his prophets when they were alive. The odds do not look good. Its usually very easy to rationalize and discount his prophets and their messages until it is too late. Watch closely and don't let any speculations or expectations cause you to reject him when he comes.

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Alaris
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Re: The Signs of the Marred Servant

Post by Alaris »

Rensai wrote: September 13th, 2017, 6:20 pm
alaris wrote: September 13th, 2017, 4:01 pm The Jewish "church" at the time of Christ was a lower order confined to the law of Moses with no Levitical authority. The end times servant will have the right to rule, though he may delegate the leadership of the LDS church, let's not forget that God's kingdom has a hierarchy. The woman is taken to the wilderness after the man child is born in Revelation 12. This could also mean that the LDS church is fulfilled much like the law of Moses was fulfilled at the time of Christ. There will likely be LDS who continue on as the Jews did, however the LDS church contains the keys and both priesthoods unlike the the Jews at the time of Christ. I fully expect the LDS church to embrace the end times servant who may then start a new organization - one designed for the time of the gathering rather than the time of the gentiles.
D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
This is someone with authority - not someone who is going to be skirting the edges of the church.
I'm not so sure about that. If he is an LDS leader, it will certainly make it easy to appeal to the wheat among the LDS church, but I think there is a lot of wheat in mainstream Christianity and even some among atheists, agnostics, etc too, who reject mainstream religions because of some the flaws they all have. I think its more likely he will not be associated with any church so as to have a broader appeal to all and to remove himself from the stereotypes, false doctrines, etc that every church has associated with it. I do think he will have to believe in the Book of Mormon and probably is or was a member of the church at some time though. There is a ton of precedence for this in scripture. Many prophets came forth who were not part of the churches of their day. Anyway, just keep an open mind and don't get too locked into the idea that its going to be an LDS leader. In the end, it doesn't really matter which church he may or may not be a part of so much as it matters that we recognize him and accept his message from Christ. The stakes are high.
3 Nephi 21 wrote: 9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
Many will not believe, and if they do not, they will be cut off from among the people of the covenant and won't be in Zion. I think its best to keep an open mind and not get too set on our own expectations of what this guy is or is not. Whether he is a young kid, an old man, a big fat guy, a homeless guy, a Mormon, a Catholic or whatever, he is the Lords chosen servant for the last days and we best be looking out for him regardless of how he appears or what his background is. We know he will become marred and he will declare a marvelous work to us, he will likely perform other miracles or prophecy, but those are the signs we can be certain of. We've been given them for a good reason. When we look back on history in the scriptures, very few people have accepted Christ or his prophets when they were alive. The odds do not look good. Its usually very easy to rationalize and discount his prophets and their messages until it is too late. Watch closely and don't let any speculations or expectations cause you to reject him when he comes.
I appreciate your sentiments and think I have a fairly healthy balance between conviction and open mindedness. The man child is birthed from the woman who Joseph defined as the church. Granted my understanding may be wrong but this but one reason why I believe he will be LDS. And my testimony of the LDS church is why I hope most will follow him from the church including the brethren. There will likely be a sifting that may go to the top yet I believe the majority of the brethren will make the right decision.

As for broad appeal the time for appealing to the gentiles is coming to an end as the gathering of Israel and the fulfillment of God's covenants to his people are fulfilled. Still I feel strongly God will have overt signs to the righteousness that simultaneously anger the wicked. This won't be difficult as the divide has been widening for some time now. Imagine how the Arab world would react if God showed some displays of power in favor of the Jews.

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Jesef
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Re: The Signs of the Marred Servant

Post by Jesef »

With the way things work now in the LDS Church, i.e. via seniority in the Apostleship, all the way through the Q12 up until President/Prophet (always Senior Apostle), there would have to be some kind of major shake-up or break with tradition and decorum to acknowledge and approve the ascendancy of some young prophet/Apostle. Anyone ordained right now to the Apostleship, as things currently stand, would be junior on the totem pole with decades of people ahead of him. To operate within the Church hierarchy/authoritarian structure, the Lord would literally have to wow and speak to the Brethren to break the normal chain of command.

What makes you think he is a descendant of Joseph or Hyrum? What would be the point of hiding him if he were in such a small group/pool of candidates?

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Alaris
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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by Alaris »

LDS Anarchist wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:00 pm
Durzan wrote: September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm The Marred Servant has several other signs and signature actions by which you can recognize him:
  1. He will break conventional thought, tradition, and culture within the church. His relationship with the Father is so strong that conventional thought within the church cannot adequately explain it. Thus he shall be called the Lord's Maverick and the Lord's Wild Card. (Conjecture)
I've never heard those terms applied to him before, but I like them. I wonder if people will start using them? And although you say this is only conjecture, I do believe this guy will be a maverick and a wild card. He won't be among the LDS leadership, and if you look at Nephi's prophecy of the end times, Nephi doesn't mention a "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" anywhere in the text.

It's as if during the time of Nephi's prophecy, the LDS church doesn't exist. Instead, he mentions a "church of the Lamb of God." Latter-day saints always put on their filters when reading the text and think (and also say), "Oh, Nephi was merely referring to the LDS church." But was he, indeed? Maybe the Lord's Maverick is a wild enough Wild Card to establish a different church organization of the saints, under an entirely different name...
I believe the Lord tries his people at times to see if they're more interested in His voice rather than in clinging on to what is comfortable or clinging on to tradition. The Lord came to fulfill the law rather than destroy the law of Moses. The Jews are still clinging on, though I believe this is God's will that they be exactly where they are for even their own sake and progression. The point I am making is that when the Kingdom of God arrives, the LDS church may be fulfilled being an institution that was designed to get us to the Kingdom of God just as the Law of Moses was the Schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Of course there will be those who cling on, but it just seems like the perfect test to discover those who have come to know the Lord and His voice - those who are ready to build up His Kingdom rather than those who are more interested in following man made rules that make them extra righteous.

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by gangbusters »

alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:13 pm
LDS Anarchist wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:00 pm
Durzan wrote: September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm The Marred Servant has several other signs and signature actions by which you can recognize him:
  1. He will break conventional thought, tradition, and culture within the church. His relationship with the Father is so strong that conventional thought within the church cannot adequately explain it. Thus he shall be called the Lord's Maverick and the Lord's Wild Card. (Conjecture)
I've never heard those terms applied to him before, but I like them. I wonder if people will start using them? And although you say this is only conjecture, I do believe this guy will be a maverick and a wild card. He won't be among the LDS leadership, and if you look at Nephi's prophecy of the end times, Nephi doesn't mention a "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" anywhere in the text.

It's as if during the time of Nephi's prophecy, the LDS church doesn't exist. Instead, he mentions a "church of the Lamb of God." Latter-day saints always put on their filters when reading the text and think (and also say), "Oh, Nephi was merely referring to the LDS church." But was he, indeed? Maybe the Lord's Maverick is a wild enough Wild Card to establish a different church organization of the saints, under an entirely different name...
I believe the Lord tries his people at times to see if they're more interested in His voice rather than in clinging on to what is comfortable or clinging on to tradition. The Lord came to fulfill the law rather than destroy the law of Moses. The Jews are still clinging on, though I believe this is God's will that they be exactly where they are for even their own sake and progression. The point I am making is that when the Kingdom of God arrives, the LDS church may be fulfilled being an institution that was designed to get us to the Kingdom of God just as the Law of Moses was the Schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Of course there will be those who cling on, but it just seems like the perfect test to discover those who have come to know the Lord and His voice - those who are ready to build up His Kingdom rather than those who are more interested in following man made rules that make them extra righteous.
I'm really late to this discussion and haven't been following it closely, so excuse me if I missed something, but if the church is one day "fulfilled," one would assume the declaration would come through the church itself and not someone from outside it, right? I wouldn't blame anyone for disregarding someone who suddenly rose up and said the church is fulfilled and we didn't need it anymore. I sure wouldn't pay any attention.

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Alaris
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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by Alaris »

gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:40 pm
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:13 pm
LDS Anarchist wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:00 pm
Durzan wrote: September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm The Marred Servant has several other signs and signature actions by which you can recognize him:
  1. He will break conventional thought, tradition, and culture within the church. His relationship with the Father is so strong that conventional thought within the church cannot adequately explain it. Thus he shall be called the Lord's Maverick and the Lord's Wild Card. (Conjecture)
I've never heard those terms applied to him before, but I like them. I wonder if people will start using them? And although you say this is only conjecture, I do believe this guy will be a maverick and a wild card. He won't be among the LDS leadership, and if you look at Nephi's prophecy of the end times, Nephi doesn't mention a "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" anywhere in the text.

It's as if during the time of Nephi's prophecy, the LDS church doesn't exist. Instead, he mentions a "church of the Lamb of God." Latter-day saints always put on their filters when reading the text and think (and also say), "Oh, Nephi was merely referring to the LDS church." But was he, indeed? Maybe the Lord's Maverick is a wild enough Wild Card to establish a different church organization of the saints, under an entirely different name...
I believe the Lord tries his people at times to see if they're more interested in His voice rather than in clinging on to what is comfortable or clinging on to tradition. The Lord came to fulfill the law rather than destroy the law of Moses. The Jews are still clinging on, though I believe this is God's will that they be exactly where they are for even their own sake and progression. The point I am making is that when the Kingdom of God arrives, the LDS church may be fulfilled being an institution that was designed to get us to the Kingdom of God just as the Law of Moses was the Schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Of course there will be those who cling on, but it just seems like the perfect test to discover those who have come to know the Lord and His voice - those who are ready to build up His Kingdom rather than those who are more interested in following man made rules that make them extra righteous.
I'm really late to this discussion and haven't been following it closely, so excuse me if I missed something, but if the church is one day "fulfilled," one would assume the declaration would come through the church itself and not someone from outside it, right? I wouldn't blame anyone for disregarding someone who suddenly rose up and said the church is fulfilled and we didn't need it anymore. I sure wouldn't pay any attention.
Agreed. I believe most if not all of the brethren would be on board if this were an eventuality. And if this were to happen, there would absolutely be a schism that possibly went all the way to the top. I personally feel this schism would be a microcosm of how rebellions are created, but that's just my deep personal feeling on the matter. :)

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by gangbusters »

alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:46 pm
gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:40 pm
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:13 pm
LDS Anarchist wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:00 pm

I've never heard those terms applied to him before, but I like them. I wonder if people will start using them? And although you say this is only conjecture, I do believe this guy will be a maverick and a wild card. He won't be among the LDS leadership, and if you look at Nephi's prophecy of the end times, Nephi doesn't mention a "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" anywhere in the text.

It's as if during the time of Nephi's prophecy, the LDS church doesn't exist. Instead, he mentions a "church of the Lamb of God." Latter-day saints always put on their filters when reading the text and think (and also say), "Oh, Nephi was merely referring to the LDS church." But was he, indeed? Maybe the Lord's Maverick is a wild enough Wild Card to establish a different church organization of the saints, under an entirely different name...
I believe the Lord tries his people at times to see if they're more interested in His voice rather than in clinging on to what is comfortable or clinging on to tradition. The Lord came to fulfill the law rather than destroy the law of Moses. The Jews are still clinging on, though I believe this is God's will that they be exactly where they are for even their own sake and progression. The point I am making is that when the Kingdom of God arrives, the LDS church may be fulfilled being an institution that was designed to get us to the Kingdom of God just as the Law of Moses was the Schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Of course there will be those who cling on, but it just seems like the perfect test to discover those who have come to know the Lord and His voice - those who are ready to build up His Kingdom rather than those who are more interested in following man made rules that make them extra righteous.
I'm really late to this discussion and haven't been following it closely, so excuse me if I missed something, but if the church is one day "fulfilled," one would assume the declaration would come through the church itself and not someone from outside it, right? I wouldn't blame anyone for disregarding someone who suddenly rose up and said the church is fulfilled and we didn't need it anymore. I sure wouldn't pay any attention.
Agreed. I believe most if not all of the brethren would be on board if this were an eventuality. And if this were to happen, there would absolutely be a schism that possibly went all the way to the top. I personally feel this schism would be a microcosm of how rebellions are created, but that's just my deep personal feeling on the matter. :)
Welp, if such a thing does happen and there's a schism, hopefully the 12 doesn't evenly split for and against, as JS counseled to follow the majority of the 12 in such an event.

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by Alaris »

gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 2:06 pm
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:46 pm
gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:40 pm
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:13 pm

I believe the Lord tries his people at times to see if they're more interested in His voice rather than in clinging on to what is comfortable or clinging on to tradition. The Lord came to fulfill the law rather than destroy the law of Moses. The Jews are still clinging on, though I believe this is God's will that they be exactly where they are for even their own sake and progression. The point I am making is that when the Kingdom of God arrives, the LDS church may be fulfilled being an institution that was designed to get us to the Kingdom of God just as the Law of Moses was the Schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Of course there will be those who cling on, but it just seems like the perfect test to discover those who have come to know the Lord and His voice - those who are ready to build up His Kingdom rather than those who are more interested in following man made rules that make them extra righteous.
I'm really late to this discussion and haven't been following it closely, so excuse me if I missed something, but if the church is one day "fulfilled," one would assume the declaration would come through the church itself and not someone from outside it, right? I wouldn't blame anyone for disregarding someone who suddenly rose up and said the church is fulfilled and we didn't need it anymore. I sure wouldn't pay any attention.
Agreed. I believe most if not all of the brethren would be on board if this were an eventuality. And if this were to happen, there would absolutely be a schism that possibly went all the way to the top. I personally feel this schism would be a microcosm of how rebellions are created, but that's just my deep personal feeling on the matter. :)
Welp, if such a thing does happen and there's a schism, hopefully the 12 doesn't evenly split for and against, as JS counseled to follow the majority of the 12 in such an event.
My thoughts exactly! :)

Edit:

In fact I believe there are universal laws or truths in regard to what causes souls to rebel, and Joseph Smith's counsel about the majority of the twelve may be related, as pride seems to cause fewer numbers to rebel imho.

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by Rensai »

gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 2:06 pm
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:46 pm
gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:40 pm
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:13 pm

I believe the Lord tries his people at times to see if they're more interested in His voice rather than in clinging on to what is comfortable or clinging on to tradition. The Lord came to fulfill the law rather than destroy the law of Moses. The Jews are still clinging on, though I believe this is God's will that they be exactly where they are for even their own sake and progression. The point I am making is that when the Kingdom of God arrives, the LDS church may be fulfilled being an institution that was designed to get us to the Kingdom of God just as the Law of Moses was the Schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Of course there will be those who cling on, but it just seems like the perfect test to discover those who have come to know the Lord and His voice - those who are ready to build up His Kingdom rather than those who are more interested in following man made rules that make them extra righteous.
I'm really late to this discussion and haven't been following it closely, so excuse me if I missed something, but if the church is one day "fulfilled," one would assume the declaration would come through the church itself and not someone from outside it, right? I wouldn't blame anyone for disregarding someone who suddenly rose up and said the church is fulfilled and we didn't need it anymore. I sure wouldn't pay any attention.
Agreed. I believe most if not all of the brethren would be on board if this were an eventuality. And if this were to happen, there would absolutely be a schism that possibly went all the way to the top. I personally feel this schism would be a microcosm of how rebellions are created, but that's just my deep personal feeling on the matter. :)
Welp, if such a thing does happen and there's a schism, hopefully the 12 doesn't evenly split for and against, as JS counseled to follow the majority of the 12 in such an event.
I'm not a follower of Denver, but one of his supporters, Adrian Larsen, did a really good job researching that quote and I remember it came up on this forum some time ago. That quote is almost certainly false. Don't bank on something like that. Stick to the signs the Lord gave us to recognize the marred servant and don't worry what others are doing. What if the church leadership goes the way of the pharisees and decides to cling to their own power and prestige rather than follow the marred servant? Would you really want to stick with them then? What if that is a test we have to face just like the ancient israelites did? Do you stick with the leaders of the church or follow the homeless guy performing miracles while flaunting the man made rules of the church (That's what Christ did)?

http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/his ... art-2.html

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by clarkkent14 »

gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:40 pmI'm really late to this discussion and haven't been following it closely, so excuse me if I missed something, but if the church is one day "fulfilled," one would assume the declaration would come through the church itself and not someone from outside it, right? I wouldn't blame anyone for disregarding someone who suddenly rose up and said the church is fulfilled and we didn't need it anymore. I sure wouldn't pay any attention.
God works in patterns. He's done it once, why not again?
TPJS p.275-6 wrote:The Greatness and Mission of John the Baptist

The question arose from the saying of Jesus--"Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." How is it that John was considered one of the greatest prophets? His miracles could not have constituted his greatness.

First. He was entrusted with a divine mission of preparing the way before the face of the Lord. Whoever had such a trust committed to him before or since? No man.

Secondly. He was entrusted with the important mission, and it was required at his hands, to baptize the Son of Man. Whoever had the honor of doing that? Whoever had so great a privilege and glory? Whoever led the Son of God into the waters of baptism, and had the privilege of beholding the Holy Ghost descend in the form of a dove, or rather in the sign of the dove, in witness of that administration? The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence.

Thirdly. John, at that time, was the only legal administrator in the affairs of the kingdom there was then on the earth, and holding the keys of power. The Jews had to obey his instructions or be damned, by their own law; and Christ Himself fulfilled all righteousness in becoming obedient to the law which he had given to Moses on the mount, and thereby magnified it and made it honorable, instead of destroying it. The son of Zacharias wrested the keys, the kingdom, the power, the glory from the Jews, by the holy anointing and decree of heaven, and these three reasons constitute him the greatest prophet born of a woman.
Who says this can't be done again?

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by Alaris »

Rensai wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:03 pm
gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 2:06 pm
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:46 pm
gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:40 pm

I'm really late to this discussion and haven't been following it closely, so excuse me if I missed something, but if the church is one day "fulfilled," one would assume the declaration would come through the church itself and not someone from outside it, right? I wouldn't blame anyone for disregarding someone who suddenly rose up and said the church is fulfilled and we didn't need it anymore. I sure wouldn't pay any attention.
Agreed. I believe most if not all of the brethren would be on board if this were an eventuality. And if this were to happen, there would absolutely be a schism that possibly went all the way to the top. I personally feel this schism would be a microcosm of how rebellions are created, but that's just my deep personal feeling on the matter. :)
Welp, if such a thing does happen and there's a schism, hopefully the 12 doesn't evenly split for and against, as JS counseled to follow the majority of the 12 in such an event.
I'm not a follower of Denver, but one of his supporters, Adrian Larsen, did a really good job researching that quote and I remember it came up on this forum some time ago. That quote is almost certainly false. Don't bank on something like that. Stick to the signs the Lord gave us to recognize the marred servant and don't worry what others are doing. What if the church leadership goes the way of the pharisees and decides to cling to their own power and prestige rather than follow the marred servant? Would you really want to stick with them then? What if that is a test we have to face just like the ancient israelites did? Do you stick with the leaders of the church or follow the homeless guy performing miracles while flaunting the man made rules of the church (That's what Christ did)?

http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/his ... art-2.html
I don't think anybody is banking on it. The language is speculative and I don't believe anybody has said that this would be a definitive way to make a decision. Regardless of what happens, I do believe the Lord will separate the wheat and tares in a genius, infinite wisdom sort of way. He will test those of use who have our hearts and minds in the right place. We cannot be lazy, which is why we are discussing and studying signs and probabilities. I certainly would not follow the majority of the brethren after a schism if majority were the only condition met.

My wife was reading your last post here and made some good points on it I'd like to share:
Rensai wrote: September 13th, 2017, 6:20 pm
alaris wrote: September 13th, 2017, 4:01 pm The Jewish "church" at the time of Christ was a lower order confined to the law of Moses with no Levitical authority. The end times servant will have the right to rule, though he may delegate the leadership of the LDS church, let's not forget that God's kingdom has a hierarchy. The woman is taken to the wilderness after the man child is born in Revelation 12. This could also mean that the LDS church is fulfilled much like the law of Moses was fulfilled at the time of Christ. There will likely be LDS who continue on as the Jews did, however the LDS church contains the keys and both priesthoods unlike the the Jews at the time of Christ. I fully expect the LDS church to embrace the end times servant who may then start a new organization - one designed for the time of the gathering rather than the time of the gentiles.
D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
This is someone with authority - not someone who is going to be skirting the edges of the church.
I'm not so sure about that. If he is an LDS leader, it will certainly make it easy to appeal to the wheat among the LDS church, but I think there is a lot of wheat in mainstream Christianity and even some among atheists, agnostics, etc too, who reject mainstream religions because of some the flaws they all have. I think its more likely he will not be associated with any church so as to have a broader appeal to all and to remove himself from the stereotypes, false doctrines, etc that every church has associated with it. I do think he will have to believe in the Book of Mormon and probably is or was a member of the church at some time though. There is a ton of precedence for this in scripture. Many prophets came forth who were not part of the churches of their day. Anyway, just keep an open mind and don't get too locked into the idea that its going to be an LDS leader. In the end, it doesn't really matter which church he may or may not be a part of so much as it matters that we recognize him and accept his message from Christ. The stakes are high.
3 Nephi 21 wrote: 9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
Many will not believe, and if they do not, they will be cut off from among the people of the covenant and won't be in Zion. I think its best to keep an open mind and not get too set on our own expectations of what this guy is or is not. Whether he is a young kid, an old man, a big fat guy, a homeless guy, a Mormon, a Catholic or whatever, he is the Lords chosen servant for the last days and we best be looking out for him regardless of how he appears or what his background is. We know he will become marred and he will declare a marvelous work to us, he will likely perform other miracles or prophecy, but those are the signs we can be certain of. We've been given them for a good reason. When we look back on history in the scriptures, very few people have accepted Christ or his prophets when they were alive. The odds do not look good. Its usually very easy to rationalize and discount his prophets and their messages until it is too late. Watch closely and don't let any speculations or expectations cause you to reject him when he comes.
So my wife felt you made many great points about keeping an open mind - especially the bit about whether he's young or old or fat or homeless. I think your most important point is his message will be from Christ. I believe his message will sound very much like Nephi's though he may be commanded to make such statements only to the House of Israel:
2 Nephi 33:10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.
I truly appreciate your posts Rensai - you seem to consider all sides without doing so just for the sake of antagonism. I sent LDS Physician a PM compliment recently I hope he doesn't mind me sharing here. He is a doctor and a member of prominence both in society and in the church yet he is a model to us all of someone who considers carefully new truth while being open to the possibility of being wrong. He doesn't let his degrees, his mantle, or his height go to his head. I try to model this behavior as well though he seems to be much better at it than I. One thing we can all agree on is none of us agree along every single line of who and what the DS will be or how things will unfold (well except Gileadi's blog pretty darn closely aligns with mine :P) What was I saying about not letting things go to my head? Oh yeah, so we all need to be open to being wrong in our quest for truth. Clinging on to any conclusions with a firm grasp of pride makes us unteachable and useless in the Lord's hands. Thanks for the stimulating discussion!
Last edited by Alaris on September 14th, 2017, 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by gangbusters »

Rensai wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:03 pm
gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 2:06 pm
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:46 pm
gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:40 pm

I'm really late to this discussion and haven't been following it closely, so excuse me if I missed something, but if the church is one day "fulfilled," one would assume the declaration would come through the church itself and not someone from outside it, right? I wouldn't blame anyone for disregarding someone who suddenly rose up and said the church is fulfilled and we didn't need it anymore. I sure wouldn't pay any attention.
Agreed. I believe most if not all of the brethren would be on board if this were an eventuality. And if this were to happen, there would absolutely be a schism that possibly went all the way to the top. I personally feel this schism would be a microcosm of how rebellions are created, but that's just my deep personal feeling on the matter. :)
Welp, if such a thing does happen and there's a schism, hopefully the 12 doesn't evenly split for and against, as JS counseled to follow the majority of the 12 in such an event.
I'm not a follower of Denver, but one of his supporters, Adrian Larsen, did a really good job researching that quote and I remember it came up on this forum some time ago. That quote is almost certainly false. Don't bank on something like that. Stick to the signs the Lord gave us to recognize the marred servant and don't worry what others are doing. What if the church leadership goes the way of the pharisees and decides to cling to their own power and prestige rather than follow the marred servant? Would you really want to stick with them then? What if that is a test we have to face just like the ancient israelites did? Do you stick with the leaders of the church or follow the homeless guy performing miracles while flaunting the man made rules of the church (That's what Christ did)?

http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/his ... art-2.html
Given your choices, I would 100% without apology follow my church leaders and the church that was founded by Christ. I do not believe the Lord would declare his church to be the one and only living church and then pull a switcheroo and expect me to follow some dude claiming to be the "marred servant" and that I should ditch his church, even though he's performing miracles.

Your hypothetical is based on a majorly unlikely event in my opinion.

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by Alaris »

clarkkent14 wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:12 pm
gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:40 pmI'm really late to this discussion and haven't been following it closely, so excuse me if I missed something, but if the church is one day "fulfilled," one would assume the declaration would come through the church itself and not someone from outside it, right? I wouldn't blame anyone for disregarding someone who suddenly rose up and said the church is fulfilled and we didn't need it anymore. I sure wouldn't pay any attention.
God works in patterns. He's done it once, why not again?
TPJS p.275-6 wrote:The Greatness and Mission of John the Baptist

The question arose from the saying of Jesus--"Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." How is it that John was considered one of the greatest prophets? His miracles could not have constituted his greatness.

First. He was entrusted with a divine mission of preparing the way before the face of the Lord. Whoever had such a trust committed to him before or since? No man.

Secondly. He was entrusted with the important mission, and it was required at his hands, to baptize the Son of Man. Whoever had the honor of doing that? Whoever had so great a privilege and glory? Whoever led the Son of God into the waters of baptism, and had the privilege of beholding the Holy Ghost descend in the form of a dove, or rather in the sign of the dove, in witness of that administration? The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence.

Thirdly. John, at that time, was the only legal administrator in the affairs of the kingdom there was then on the earth, and holding the keys of power. The Jews had to obey his instructions or be damned, by their own law; and Christ Himself fulfilled all righteousness in becoming obedient to the law which he had given to Moses on the mount, and thereby magnified it and made it honorable, instead of destroying it. The son of Zacharias wrested the keys, the kingdom, the power, the glory from the Jews, by the holy anointing and decree of heaven, and these three reasons constitute him the greatest prophet born of a woman.
Who says this can't be done again?
Why is it you have nearly 2,000 posts and I do not recall seeing you until recently? I'm glad I have as your posts are on fire! What a fantastic quote from Joseph Smith - I certainly will not say this can't be done. I'm just hoping the LDS Church and the Davidic Servant will be besties! :) The woman is taken into the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time. Perhaps this means, the millennium (linear time), the celestial kingdom (times), and into the following creation (half a time) before it is organized again during the first phase when the noble and greats are chosen. I'm really starting to think the LDS church will bow out in favor of the Kingdom of God.

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by clarkkent14 »

alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:33 pmWhy is it you have nearly 2,000 posts and I do not recall seeing you until recently?
Once those who read and study Denver Snuffer were not really welcomed anymore I bailed for the most part. I have checked in lately just to see if any recognize the signs upon us. I started lurking this site 10 years ago and joined it 9 years ago.

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by Rensai »

alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:26 pm
So my wife felt you made many great points about keeping an open mind - especially the bit about whether he's young or old or fat or homeless. I think your most important point is his message will be from Christ. I believe his message will sound very much like Nephi's though he may be commanded to make such statements only to the House of Israel:
2 Nephi 33:10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.
I love it. I think your wife is right, I could easily see the marred servant speaking much like Nephi does there.
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:26 pm I truly appreciate your posts Rensai - you seem to consider all sides without doing so just for the sake of antagonism. I sent LDS Physicians a PM compliment recently I hope he doesn't mind me sharing here. He is a doctor and a member of prominence both in society and in the church yet he is a model to us all of someone who considers carefully new truth while being open to the possibility of being wrong. He doesn't let his degrees, his mantle, or his height go to his head. I try to model this behavior as well though he seems to be much better at it than I. One thing we can all agree on is none of us agree along every single line of who and what the DS will be or how things will unfold (well except Gileadi's blog pretty darn closely aligns with mine :P) What was I saying about not letting things go to my head? Oh yeah, so we all need to be open to being wrong in our quest for truth. Clinging on to any conclusions with a firm grasp of pride makes us unteachable and useless in the Lord's hands. Thanks for the stimulating discussion!
Thanks, that's very kind of you to say and I'm glad you don't see my responses as antagonizing because that is not my goal at all. I've enjoyed many of your posts on many different topics and while I sometimes come to different conclusions or opinions on the topics, I can clearly see you've put a lot of thought and effort into what you write and I enjoy reading and thinking about it.

Part of the reason I responded the way I did on this thread is because I've noticed that there have been a lot of threads lately relating to the marred servant or davidic servant, etc and I've noticed that a lot of the posts are making a lot of assumptions. I think that could be really bad. We all know one of the reasons the Jews rejected Christ was because they had many false assumptions and expectations about what he should do or act like. They were looking for the millennial king to come destroy the Romans, not a homeless guy who patiently bore their burdens.

I think many will make that same kind of mistake with the marred servant. the OP sounds like he is expecting some mighty near demi-god with blue fire in his eyes! What if he just gets a cripple with a checkered past? So many assumptions layered on top of more assumptions. Is the Josephite, Marred Servant, Mighty and Strong one, and Davidic Servant all one guy or several guys? I just really wanted to highlight that the only things we know for 100% sure that apply to the marred servant are the scriptures in 3 Nephi 20/21 and a bit in Isiah that says about the same stuff. The only definite, 100% sure signs we can use to identify this guy are that he will be horribly marred and that he will prophecy about a marvelous work the Lord is going to do. Its certainly fun to read everyone's thoughts and guesses about this stuff, but I think we need to also be clear about what is scriptural and dependable and what is speculation.

That said, I think it was interesting to read the OP and I'd love to see everyone else's list of traits and applicable scriptures they think talk about this guy. My perception is that very few in the church even know there will be a marred servant. Its not something I've ever seen anyone talked about in church and when I brought the topic up with some other members not one of them even knew this was something to watch for. I think that's scary. We need to talk about this, we need to get the word out to people, especially if 9/23 marks the beginning of his work. People need to know and be watching for the signs or they won't have much of a chance to correctly identify him.

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by Alaris »

Rensai wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:48 pm
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:26 pm
So my wife felt you made many great points about keeping an open mind - especially the bit about whether he's young or old or fat or homeless. I think your most important point is his message will be from Christ. I believe his message will sound very much like Nephi's though he may be commanded to make such statements only to the House of Israel:
2 Nephi 33:10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.
I love it. I think your wife is right, I could easily see the marred servant speaking much like Nephi does there.
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:26 pm I truly appreciate your posts Rensai - you seem to consider all sides without doing so just for the sake of antagonism. I sent LDS Physicians a PM compliment recently I hope he doesn't mind me sharing here. He is a doctor and a member of prominence both in society and in the church yet he is a model to us all of someone who considers carefully new truth while being open to the possibility of being wrong. He doesn't let his degrees, his mantle, or his height go to his head. I try to model this behavior as well though he seems to be much better at it than I. One thing we can all agree on is none of us agree along every single line of who and what the DS will be or how things will unfold (well except Gileadi's blog pretty darn closely aligns with mine :P) What was I saying about not letting things go to my head? Oh yeah, so we all need to be open to being wrong in our quest for truth. Clinging on to any conclusions with a firm grasp of pride makes us unteachable and useless in the Lord's hands. Thanks for the stimulating discussion!
Thanks, that's very kind of you to say and I'm glad you don't see my responses as antagonizing because that is not my goal at all. I've enjoyed many of your posts on many different topics and while I sometimes come to different conclusions or opinions on the topics, I can clearly see you've put a lot of thought and effort into what you write and I enjoy reading and thinking about it.

Part of the reason I responded the way I did on this thread is because I've noticed that there have been a lot of threads lately relating to the marred servant or davidic servant, etc and I've noticed that a lot of the posts are making a lot of assumptions. I think that could be really bad. We all know one of the reasons the Jews rejected Christ was because they had many false assumptions and expectations about what he should do or act like. They were looking for the millennial king to come destroy the Romans, not a homeless guy who patiently bore their burdens.

I think many will make that same kind of mistake with the marred servant. the OP sounds like he is expecting some mighty near demi-god with blue fire in his eyes! What if he just gets a cripple with a checkered past? So many assumptions layered on top of more assumptions. Is the Josephite, Marred Servant, Mighty and Strong one, and Davidic Servant all one guy or several guys? I just really wanted to highlight that the only things we know for 100% sure that apply to the marred servant are the scriptures in 3 Nephi 20/21 and a bit in Isiah that says about the same stuff. The only definite, 100% sure signs we can use to identify this guy are that he will be horribly marred and that he will prophecy about a marvelous work the Lord is going to do. Its certainly fun to read everyone's thoughts and guesses about this stuff, but I think we need to also be clear about what is scriptural and dependable and what is speculation.

That said, I think it was interesting to read the OP and I'd love to see everyone else's list of traits and applicable scriptures they think talk about this guy. My perception is that very few in the church even know there will be a marred servant. Its not something I've ever seen anyone talked about in church and when I brought the topic up with some other members not one of them even knew this was something to watch for. I think that's scary. We need to talk about this, we need to get the word out to people, especially if 9/23 marks the beginning of his work. People need to know and be watching for the signs or they won't have much of a chance to correctly identify him.
Aha! And now I have a contrary view for you that underlines your earlier point about not presuming anything. I personally am afraid everyone is going to be looking for the hunchback of notre dame and the actual Davidic Servant's marring either:

A. Means something other than a physical marring and presumed incorrectly
B. Was already healed with little physical evidence of the marring
C. Some other thing I haven't thought of with my puny brain

I made the point in this other thread that there is evidence that the marring is not physical:

/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45814&start=30

Here's a shorter version:
3 Nephi 21:10
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
How does the Lord healing a disfigured person show anything other than power? How is wisdom displayed by a healing, unless the marring itself had a wise purpose. I speculate in the thread above that the marring's purpose may have indeed been physical but hidden from our eyes - if this man had earned his crown across time and space as I believe he has, then perhaps his pineal and pituitary glands were marred so that even he would be asleep to his own identity - being separated from his gifts and abilities he had already earned. I urge you to read the longer version as the case can't be made well in these few words. :)

It makes sense to me - more spiritually than intellectually - that the servant's ascent will include a healing that reveals the wisdom of the Lord and how this man was hiding in plain sight. Just my $ 0.02

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by Rensai »

gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:29 pm
Rensai wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:03 pm
gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 2:06 pm
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:46 pm

Agreed. I believe most if not all of the brethren would be on board if this were an eventuality. And if this were to happen, there would absolutely be a schism that possibly went all the way to the top. I personally feel this schism would be a microcosm of how rebellions are created, but that's just my deep personal feeling on the matter. :)
Welp, if such a thing does happen and there's a schism, hopefully the 12 doesn't evenly split for and against, as JS counseled to follow the majority of the 12 in such an event.
I'm not a follower of Denver, but one of his supporters, Adrian Larsen, did a really good job researching that quote and I remember it came up on this forum some time ago. That quote is almost certainly false. Don't bank on something like that. Stick to the signs the Lord gave us to recognize the marred servant and don't worry what others are doing. What if the church leadership goes the way of the pharisees and decides to cling to their own power and prestige rather than follow the marred servant? Would you really want to stick with them then? What if that is a test we have to face just like the ancient israelites did? Do you stick with the leaders of the church or follow the homeless guy performing miracles while flaunting the man made rules of the church (That's what Christ did)?

http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/his ... art-2.html
Given your choices, I would 100% without apology follow my church leaders and the church that was founded by Christ. I do not believe the Lord would declare his church to be the one and only living church and then pull a switcheroo and expect me to follow some dude claiming to be the "marred servant" and that I should ditch his church, even though he's performing miracles.

Your hypothetical is based on a majorly unlikely event in my opinion.
Its based on something that has already happened so its not that unlikely. Your loyalty should be to Christ, not a church or a man. If Christ wants to bring in an outside prophet that is up to him. I'm not saying this will happen for sure, I don't really know, but I know for my family, I will watch and follow the marred servant over the church if it comes down to it.

Now lets talk about your reference to D&C 1. This is actually a bit of a pet peeve of mine. When Christ says something about the state of a people or church, it doesn't mean it can never change and will stand for all time so why do we pretend that that is true when we quote scripture?

D&C 1 is "Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, on November 1, 1831" and it says the church is: "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually." Now fast forward to section 84, a "Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, September 22 and 23, 1832." It says that:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
See that? In less than 1 year, Christ goes from saying he's generally well pleased with the church to saying ALL are under condemnation. Similarly, if you read the BoM you'll see the Nephites go from good to wicked and back again in just a few short years. So no, I don't think its a stretch at all to think that between 1831 when D&C 1 was given and 2017, that the Lords view on the church may have changed a lot. I don't know. Maybe the leaders will fall in line with the marred servant and maybe not. Only God knows, but we should be ready to follow Christ and his servant regardless of what the anyone else, high or low in the church does. Anything less than that will get you the telestial kingdom.
D&C 76 wrote: 98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
See, even being some of Christ and some of a true prophet is no good. We must be 100% with Christ. If the marred servant comes forward, shows his prophecy and miracles and deliver's Christs words telling us to follow him instead, then it would be really bad to listen to the church leaders over him, just like it was bad to listen to the pharisees instead of John the baptist. What if he does that? Will he? Only God knows, but we should be resolved to follow Christ and not men just in case.

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by Rensai »

alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:59 pm
Rensai wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:48 pm
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:26 pm
So my wife felt you made many great points about keeping an open mind - especially the bit about whether he's young or old or fat or homeless. I think your most important point is his message will be from Christ. I believe his message will sound very much like Nephi's though he may be commanded to make such statements only to the House of Israel:
2 Nephi 33:10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.
I love it. I think your wife is right, I could easily see the marred servant speaking much like Nephi does there.
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:26 pm I truly appreciate your posts Rensai - you seem to consider all sides without doing so just for the sake of antagonism. I sent LDS Physicians a PM compliment recently I hope he doesn't mind me sharing here. He is a doctor and a member of prominence both in society and in the church yet he is a model to us all of someone who considers carefully new truth while being open to the possibility of being wrong. He doesn't let his degrees, his mantle, or his height go to his head. I try to model this behavior as well though he seems to be much better at it than I. One thing we can all agree on is none of us agree along every single line of who and what the DS will be or how things will unfold (well except Gileadi's blog pretty darn closely aligns with mine :P) What was I saying about not letting things go to my head? Oh yeah, so we all need to be open to being wrong in our quest for truth. Clinging on to any conclusions with a firm grasp of pride makes us unteachable and useless in the Lord's hands. Thanks for the stimulating discussion!
Thanks, that's very kind of you to say and I'm glad you don't see my responses as antagonizing because that is not my goal at all. I've enjoyed many of your posts on many different topics and while I sometimes come to different conclusions or opinions on the topics, I can clearly see you've put a lot of thought and effort into what you write and I enjoy reading and thinking about it.

Part of the reason I responded the way I did on this thread is because I've noticed that there have been a lot of threads lately relating to the marred servant or davidic servant, etc and I've noticed that a lot of the posts are making a lot of assumptions. I think that could be really bad. We all know one of the reasons the Jews rejected Christ was because they had many false assumptions and expectations about what he should do or act like. They were looking for the millennial king to come destroy the Romans, not a homeless guy who patiently bore their burdens.

I think many will make that same kind of mistake with the marred servant. the OP sounds like he is expecting some mighty near demi-god with blue fire in his eyes! What if he just gets a cripple with a checkered past? So many assumptions layered on top of more assumptions. Is the Josephite, Marred Servant, Mighty and Strong one, and Davidic Servant all one guy or several guys? I just really wanted to highlight that the only things we know for 100% sure that apply to the marred servant are the scriptures in 3 Nephi 20/21 and a bit in Isiah that says about the same stuff. The only definite, 100% sure signs we can use to identify this guy are that he will be horribly marred and that he will prophecy about a marvelous work the Lord is going to do. Its certainly fun to read everyone's thoughts and guesses about this stuff, but I think we need to also be clear about what is scriptural and dependable and what is speculation.

That said, I think it was interesting to read the OP and I'd love to see everyone else's list of traits and applicable scriptures they think talk about this guy. My perception is that very few in the church even know there will be a marred servant. Its not something I've ever seen anyone talked about in church and when I brought the topic up with some other members not one of them even knew this was something to watch for. I think that's scary. We need to talk about this, we need to get the word out to people, especially if 9/23 marks the beginning of his work. People need to know and be watching for the signs or they won't have much of a chance to correctly identify him.
Aha! And now I have a contrary view for you that underlines your earlier point about not presuming anything. I personally am afraid everyone is going to be looking for the hunchback of notre dame and the actual Davidic Servant's marring either:

A. Means something other than a physical marring and presumed incorrectly
B. Was already healed with little physical evidence of the marring
C. Some other thing I haven't thought of with my puny brain

I made the point in this other thread that there is evidence that the marring is not physical:

/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45814&start=30

Here's a shorter version:
3 Nephi 21:10
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
How does the Lord healing a disfigured person show anything other than power? How is wisdom displayed by a healing, unless the marring itself had a wise purpose. I speculate in the thread above that the marring's purpose may have indeed been physical but hidden from our eyes - if this man had earned his crown across time and space as I believe he has, then perhaps his pineal and pituitary glands were marred so that even he would be asleep to his own identity - being separated from his gifts and abilities he had already earned. I urge you to read the longer version as the case can't be made well in these few words. :)

It makes sense to me - more spiritually than intellectually - that the servant's ascent will include a healing that reveals the wisdom of the Lord and how this man was hiding in plain sight. Just my $ 0.02
That's a really interesting idea. I haven't considered that before and yes, that illustrates my point exactly. We all make assumptions and we need to be careful. :D

Thanks for sharing that. I'll have to think on that more. What do you think of Gileadi's translation though?
just as he appalled many—
his appearance was marred beyond human likeness,
his semblance unlike that of men—
I tend to think he's probably got the best translation of Isaiah out there and it looks like its pretty clearly talking about physical form. Would other people be appalled by his "spiritual form" that they can't even see?

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by Alaris »

Rensai wrote: September 14th, 2017, 4:16 pm That's a really interesting idea. I haven't considered that before and yes, that illustrates my point exactly. We all make assumptions and we need to be careful. :D

Thanks for sharing that. I'll have to think on that more. What do you think of Gileadi's translation though?
just as he appalled many
his appearance was marred beyond human likeness,
his semblance unlike that of men—
I tend to think he's probably got the best translation of Isaiah out there and it looks like its pretty clearly talking about physical form. Would other people be appalled by his "spiritual form" that they can't even see?
That's the thing - who is "many"? Knowing who "many" is may help understand both what the marring is what its purpose is. Here's the original for comparison:
Isaiah 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:The healing reveals the Lord's wisdom rather than his power. So his marring shows a layer of wisdom. This is why I believe "many" may be those on the other side of the veil.
Here's more of 3 Nephi for context to help us decode who "many" is:
3 Nephi 21:9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
Aha! Could it be the devil and his minions? The healing shows that the Lord's wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. So what is the cunning of the devil with regards to the Davidic Servant? I think Revelation 12 holds the answer:
JST Revelation 12:4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born. (JST words italicized)


So the Dragon is waiting ... waiting ... ready to devour the child after it was born. Why not before? He can't do it before because he can't see him:
Isaiah 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
So the marring could have physical aspects, but I absolutely believe at this point that the primary aspect is spiritual - to hide him from the adversary. This is why I'm concerned that the gadiantons are poised to strike even now - ready to do their master's bidding. This would include people as part of "they" in addition to the rebellion, but it is the rebellion who is blind to him on the spiritual plane. They know who this man is and they hate him. They hate who he is, what he will do, and what he has already done:
Isaiah 51:9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

11 Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.
Though I believe in MMP, verse 10 sounds to me like the Davidic Servant accomplished this feat from the other side of the veil.

Edit: As far as Gileadi, I have tremendous respect and gratitude for his work. However, I have found where he has bent translations to his interpretation. A perfect example of this is Isaiah 9:6. Though I believe Gileadi is correct in understanding that Isaiah 9:6 is about the Davidic Servant and not Jesus Christ, I have delved deep into the translation of that verse - and what the Isaiah scroll says. The name Wonderful Counseler, The mighty God ... there is evidence this is a single, long name like Mahershalalhashbaz. So the fact that EL or "God" is part of the name does not mean the verse is about God as EL is in many Biblical names - Ezekiel, Elijah, etc. Gileadi translates "Mighty God" as "Mighty Man of Valor" - nope. EL is in there. (EL means God in Hebrew.)

Edit: Edit: Here is a great link to what the Isaiah scroll (the oldest copy of Isaiah by far) reveals about Isaiah 9:6 The word is Elgibor rather than "El Gibor" in other, more recent editions of Isaiah. So if Ezekiel or Elijah were written as separate words, they would be separate words rather than a name. Elgibor is a name that means "God is a Warrior" as one possible translation. You can't take the EL out of the translation however. Gileadi did. Minus points for Gileadi.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_isaiahscroll.html

Edit: edit: edit: I eat my words. El can mean "Mighty" and Gibor ... get this ... can mean "Strong One" Did you get that? Rather than "The mighty God" Elgibor can be translated to mean: "Mighty and Strong One"

Here is my source - this guy's final conclusion is wrong as he doesn't have D&C 85:7 to reign him in on Elgibor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXPnrhvxrZg

El meaning "Mighty" rather than God - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

Gibor meaning "Strong One" http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Gibor
D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by blot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
Last edited by Alaris on September 14th, 2017, 5:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Signs of the Marred Servant

Post by AI2.0 »

Durzan wrote: September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm A bit of background information: In another thread, Jesef outlined 3 general positions of people on the forum:

Position 1:
Jesef wrote: September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm IF the LDS Church & Brethren are still truly The Lord's chosen (despite any faults, frailties, or mistakes), then Denver Snuffer is truly out of line, he is truly apostate, and he is also pretending to speak for and represent Christ, and has set himself up with competing/opposing divine authenticity claims to the real/true priesthood authority and order of The Lord, i.e. God's kingdom on earth. This would make him little different than any other anti-LDS effort, for he actively criticizes and opposes The Lord's true servants. This would also mean that those who have followed and believed him are in large measure deceived and have cut themselves off from that kingdom (and from exaltation really) and turned against God and his servants - and would require them to repent by returning to said fold via the gate of re baptism (ironically).
Position 2:
Jesef wrote: September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm IF Denver Snuffer's claims and message are true, then the LDS Church is now totally rejected by The Lord, its Brethren are corrupt pretenders, its priesthood authority and ordinances revoked and invalid. This would mean exaltation is no longer available through it. LDS members who pass up this message and invitation to be re-baptized according to Denver's instructions and receive the covenant he claims The Lord has offered Gentiles through him, would be passing up the path to true salvation itself. They would be joining the vast number of Gentiles who are going to be rejected by The Lord and destroyed in the coming tribulations. They would be rejecting the eventual safety of ZION.
Position 3:
Jesef wrote: September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm The third option is that both of these Leaders'/Group's claims are not entirely true/real, leaving all kinds of other doors and options open.
I believe I fall into Position 3... but that is a very large door to be under... so here is a bit of clarification: I suspect that the keys still yet remain with the Church, and that the Brethren still hold all or at least most of their authority. However, it is also becoming clear to me that there is corruption of one kind or another seeping within or into the walls of the Church. To make matters worse... pride and stagnation has been set within the hearts of many among the membership... and that is not a good sign. I plead unto you my brethren, heed the words of our current Prophets and Apostles... for the time in which they have yet to preach upon this earth is limited.

With the Days of Tribulation almost upon us now, it seems clear to me the time is coming when the church will risk being torn apart by said corruption. We read that in Helaman and 3rd Nephi that it only took a few years for the church established among the nephites to go from being completely righteous to completely wicked... to the point where they were even stoning the prophets, and it all started with just a little bit of pride. Many here have pointed out that the Book of Mormon has a secondary purpose of acting as foreshadowing of our day... so, if that is the case then that means that one way or another, the Church itself is going to be in mortal peril. If our current leadership remains righteous, then they could very well be in significant danger from both the government and our own people in just the span of a few years. If they do not remain righteous, then it will cause a Great Schism within the church, and the church will be nearly torn asunder.

Yet the Lord will provide a way to weather the coming storm. The sign in the heavens that many of us have been discussing for the past couple of weeks (The one of the Virgin Giving Birth in Revelations 12) is one of the signs of way which the Lord will provide to signal the way for us to weather the coming days. The sign on 9/23 speaks of the coming of a young man who will be a forbearer to the Lord's second coming, even as John the Baptist was a forbearer to Christ's mortal ministry. This man is known by many names: the Josephite, the Archangel Raphael, Elias: the Son of the Morning, the Soul of Iron, The Last Prophet of the Last Dispensation, The Lord's Maverick, The Lord's Wild Card, and The Marred Servant.

The Marred Servant has several other signs and signature actions by which you can recognize him:
  1. He was one of the Great and Noble ones in the Premortal Realm. His loyalty and closeness to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ during the war in heaven earned him the title of Son of the Morning, taken from Lucifer when he was cast out. It is possible that the Marred Servant is actually the Archangel Raphael. (Personal Revelation revealed this... but I could also cite Abraham 3, as it seems to indicate that most prophets are chosen from among the Great and Noble Ones.)
  2. He will be a descendant of Joseph or Hyrum Smith, and thus be a descendant of Joseph who was sold into Egypt. He will also have the blood of Judah flowing through his veins. For this reason he shall be called the Josephite. (Personal Revelation combined with an alternative interpretation of Isaiah 11:1-5, & D&C 113:3-6.)
  3. He will take up the mantle of Joseph Smith, and finish what he started. At times, many will mistake him for being a resurrected Joseph Smith. Ultimately, this will result in the Restoration of All Things. For this reason he shall be called Elias. (Again, primary source is Personal Revelation. Related Scriptures would be)
  4. He will break conventional thought, tradition, and culture within the church. His relationship with the Father is so strong that conventional thought within the church cannot adequately explain it. Thus he shall be called the Lord's Maverick and the Lord's Wild Card. (Conjecture)
  5. His faith and resolve will be unshakable... for this is the reason why he is known as the Soul of Iron. (Personal Revelation and Conjecture; you cannot do what he is going to do WITHOUT unshakable faith.)
  6. His eyes shall burn with azure fire when he preaches the gospel. (Personal Revelation. Conjecture: It is well documented in scripture that some prophets sometimes go through a physical change that manages to evoke fear in the wicked. Nephi was one of these prophets, and so too was Joseph Smith. It is reasonable to assume that the Marred Servant would have a similar ability. Eyes that glow with a flaming blue light would be one of the changes brought upon by the spirit when he is preaching.)
  7. His voice will be like a thundering lion to the wicked, while like a lamb to the righteous. In this voice will he urge many to repent. (Primarily personal revelation. But again, there are documented accounts in the scriptures of prophets speaking "in a loud voice," so this isn't entirely unprecedented either)
  8. Many will heed his voice, but many more will reject him. (Conjecture: In a day where most of the world is wicked and will harden their hearts, curse God and die, it only stands to reason that he would be rejected by many. Backed up by passages in Revelation.)
  9. He will be taught in the School of the Prophets, and will be legitimately ordained as an Apostle of the Lord. His ordination will seem to be a miracle to the body of the church. (Personal Revelation)
  10. He shall cleanse the church of any and all corruption, and bring us out of condemnation if we haven't already. (Personal Revelation: This goes back to the prompting that I posted about a while ago... the one where I relay that the church will only be brought fully out of condemnation when a righteous descendant of Joseph or Hyrum leads us as the prophet. Can possibly be backed up by the scriptures that tell of Christ cleansing the temple of the money changers. See #12)
  11. IF (and that is a big IF) the leadership ever falters or attempts to lead the church astray during his ministry, then he will risk excommunication to set things back on course. If that happens... expect him to stand directly before the Twelve and denounce them. Nevertheless, he will work within the bounds that the Lord set forth in the D&C, whenever possible. (This one is entirely due to Personal Revelation. Conjecture: There are procedures listed in the D&C that were put in place to legitimately remove prophets and apostles from authority... why would those processes be put in place if the Lord had no need to use them? See #12.)
  12. All that he does shall be done through legitimate means and authority... both within the church, and within God's Kingdom. (Conjecture: God's house is a house of order. Therefore, anything that the Marred Servant will do, he will do through the proper procedures and with the proper authority.)
  13. He shall be marred, both physically and spiritually, but the Lord shall preserve him and will heal him. For this reason shall he be called the Marred Servant.
  14. He will be comparable to many other prophets of old in both works and power, particularly Enoch. He will be comparable to Martin Luther with his desires. It is worth noting that many have stated their belief that Raphael may be Enoch... which makes this servant's comparison to him all the more apt.(Personal Revelation)
  15. The Lord's testimony of thunderings and lightnings shall come through him, as well as from the Lord's voice directly. (Amos 3:7, D&C 43:17-18. This one is fairly clear cut.)
  16. He shall have the miraculous gift to heal others as well as destroy. In fact, part of his mission is to heal the church as a surgeon would heal his patient through making a wound, removing a deadly tumor, then sealing up the wound. For this reason he will be called Raphael.
  17. He shall have many spiritual gifts... including that of Dreaming and Prophecy. These gifts will start out somewhat erratic in his life, but shall manifest individually and become refined through practice and the guidance of the hand of the Lord. This will progress at a slow and steady rate, to the point where he shall eventually have access to all spiritual gifts by the time the Lord comes.
  18. He shall participate in the meeting on Adam Ondi Ahman, and shall be numbered among the 144,000. (Cojecture: With how much scriptural passages seem to refer to him, it is only natural to assume that he will be a part of the meeting with Adam and Christ, alongside all the other prophets and apostles.)
  19. He shall lead the members of the Church back to Independence Missouri and shall establish the city of Zion. He shall be alive and on the earth when Christ comes. Thus he shall be known as the Last Prophet of the Last Dispensation.
  20. He shall not taste of death, but shall instead be translated.
Additional Clarification: A good chunk of these signs I cite are due to personal revelation combined with a bit of conjecture... so your mileage may vary. Scriptures can and have provided me some additional insight into some of these notes... but said insight is limited. I am working on adding scriptural references and notes on what is personal revelation and conjecture. It will be in bold.
I am dismayed by this new trend among some on this forum to give alternate interpretations to scriptures in order to use them as some sort of evidence to their own personal beliefs. I noticed it with the reworkings of the 'Davidic Servant' some have been making claims about. I'm still not sure if they are referring to the Messiah Ben David (if they are they are totally off base) or some other 'Davidic Servant' that they're now claiming will come.
Where do you get the name 'Marred Servant'? What scriptural references do you have that give this name? The only scripture I can think of that talks about one 'marred' is referring to our Savior Jesus Christ and I certainly don't agree with taking scriptures that are referring to Jesus and trying to rework them so as to suggest they refer to another, 'new' extraordinary prophet, who frankly, when I read some of your descriptions, could also be suggestive of the Anti christ. He's supposed so do all kinds of miracles and wonders too.

Also, I can't help but be concerned about all these claims shared on the forum of prophets and 'servants' coming forward in the last days, given the very deliberate warning by our Savior and his apostles that one of the conditions of the Last Days would be the emergence of False Christs, False Prophets and False Teachers. This should be a real concern for any who take the scriptural warnings seriously.

I realize that you are claiming personal revelation for these things, and I don't wish to offend, but I do think we need to remember the warning by our Savior when these things are brought up here and for all those on the forum who claim to be receiving revelation, I think they should realize that they could be one of those 'elect' who may be deceived in the last days. It was a real warning and we should not brush it off. The dangers of finding oneself following a false prophet is very real, we see a lot of it these days.

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SmallFarm
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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

Post by SmallFarm »

Rensai wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:03 pm
gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 2:06 pm
alaris wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:46 pm
gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:40 pm

I'm really late to this discussion and haven't been following it closely, so excuse me if I missed something, but if the church is one day "fulfilled," one would assume the declaration would come through the church itself and not someone from outside it, right? I wouldn't blame anyone for disregarding someone who suddenly rose up and said the church is fulfilled and we didn't need it anymore. I sure wouldn't pay any attention.
Agreed. I believe most if not all of the brethren would be on board if this were an eventuality. And if this were to happen, there would absolutely be a schism that possibly went all the way to the top. I personally feel this schism would be a microcosm of how rebellions are created, but that's just my deep personal feeling on the matter. :)
Welp, if such a thing does happen and there's a schism, hopefully the 12 doesn't evenly split for and against, as JS counseled to follow the majority of the 12 in such an event.
I'm not a follower of Denver, but one of his supporters, Adrian Larsen, did a really good job researching that quote and I remember it came up on this forum some time ago. That quote is almost certainly false. Don't bank on something like that. Stick to the signs the Lord gave us to recognize the marred servant and don't worry what others are doing. What if the church leadership goes the way of the pharisees and decides to cling to their own power and prestige rather than follow the marred servant? Would you really want to stick with them then? What if that is a test we have to face just like the ancient israelites did? Do you stick with the leaders of the church or follow the homeless guy performing miracles while flaunting the man made rules of the church (That's what Christ did)?

http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/his ... art-2.html
What do you think of the Farnsworth Vision?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29181&hilit=The+Farnsworth+Vision

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Re: LDS, but not in the church leadership, and then...not LDS?

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clarkkent14 wrote: September 14th, 2017, 3:12 pm
gangbusters wrote: September 14th, 2017, 1:40 pmI'm really late to this discussion and haven't been following it closely, so excuse me if I missed something, but if the church is one day "fulfilled," one would assume the declaration would come through the church itself and not someone from outside it, right? I wouldn't blame anyone for disregarding someone who suddenly rose up and said the church is fulfilled and we didn't need it anymore. I sure wouldn't pay any attention.
God works in patterns. He's done it once, why not again?
TPJS p.275-6 wrote:The Greatness and Mission of John the Baptist

The question arose from the saying of Jesus--"Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." How is it that John was considered one of the greatest prophets? His miracles could not have constituted his greatness.

First. He was entrusted with a divine mission of preparing the way before the face of the Lord. Whoever had such a trust committed to him before or since? No man.

Secondly. He was entrusted with the important mission, and it was required at his hands, to baptize the Son of Man. Whoever had the honor of doing that? Whoever had so great a privilege and glory? Whoever led the Son of God into the waters of baptism, and had the privilege of beholding the Holy Ghost descend in the form of a dove, or rather in the sign of the dove, in witness of that administration? The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence.

Thirdly. John, at that time, was the only legal administrator in the affairs of the kingdom there was then on the earth, and holding the keys of power. The Jews had to obey his instructions or be damned, by their own law; and Christ Himself fulfilled all righteousness in becoming obedient to the law which he had given to Moses on the mount, and thereby magnified it and made it honorable, instead of destroying it. The son of Zacharias wrested the keys, the kingdom, the power, the glory from the Jews, by the holy anointing and decree of heaven, and these three reasons constitute him the greatest prophet born of a woman.
Who says this can't be done again?
I wondered why this kept being emphasized by posters on the forum (Joseph Smith's quote about John the Baptist wresting keys) and I wasn't at all surprised when I found where it came from in Denver Snuffer's writings--it's one of the things he's brought out and emphasized to bolster his claims and I see the Snuffer followers do know their 'talking points'. It's clear you all are reading Denver Snuffer's writings, though I'm not so sure you all are reading the scriptures as well.

You want to know why it can't be done again? Because this IS the last dispensation and we're still in it. I don't care what Snuffer says, he's wrong and he's clearly falling into the trap so many of these kinds find themselves in as they being to come up with all kinds of grandiose beliefs about themselves. The phrase 'for the last time' means exactly what it says--for the last time, not 'for the most recent time'. Denver Snuffer's parsing on these words reminds me of Bill Clinton opining on what 'is' means.

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