The Signs of the Marred Servant

[Durzan]

How can the Marred Servant (let's call him, from 3 Nephi 21) possibly be the same as the Davidic Servant (from various Isaiah) since MS basically serves the covenant Gentiles and the DS serves Jerusalem/Israel/Judah and rebuilding the Temple on Moriah, etc.?

Christ was quoting parts of Isaiah. with that understanding, i can see how someone could confuse the two.

[Jesef]

So, Durzan, sorry for my confusion and asking you to probably repeat yourself a little, but do you believe they are the same guy or different guys? I've imagined that MS and "one mighty and strong" (from D&C 85) were same guy over here in Americas, and DS was a different guy (over in Israel/Jerusalem).

[Alaris]

So, Durzan, sorry for my confusion and asking you to probably repeat yourself a little, but do you believe they are the same guy or different guys? I've imagined that MS and "one mighty and strong" (from D&C 85) were same guy over here in Americas, and DS was a different guy (over in Israel/Jerusalem).

The rod in D&C 113 from Isaiah 11 has much power laid upon him. The root is another character in Isaiah 11. The DS is the rod imho. It's his right to divide the inheritances which is D&C 85 if I remember right.

[AI2.0]

How can the Marred Servant (let's call him, from 3 Nephi 21) possibly be the same as the Davidic Servant (from various Isaiah) since MS basically serves the covenant Gentiles and the DS serves Jerusalem/Israel/Judah and rebuilding the Temple on Moriah, etc.?

This is the problem I see; They are pulling things out of context, mixing them up, adding stuff from the internet on constellations, supposed prophecies, ndes, etc. and using them to support their 'revelations'. We've known about the Messiah Ben David for decades, but this 'marred servant' is obscure IMO and you said it earlier, we keep seeing new predictions with each year that comes since about 2000. It's hard to take these things seriously, IMO.

The 'marred servant' is a new one, though I did find an article by Val Brinkerhoff that gave some interesting information (and he actually stuck pretty well with the scriptures in his suppositions). He talks about two servants.

I haven't finished reading the whole thing, but so far his theories sound plausible enough to at least consider;

http://www.7witnesses.com/uploads/3/8/9 ... _jacob.pdf

[Alaris]

There is a scripture in Isaiah where it basically says its not enough for thee to gather Israel... The ms /DS will hold all the keys. There will be another servant and other servants but DS / MS has the mantle over the entire gathering. It's all over Isaiah and the OT... Well it's in all standard works actually. Moroni quotes many of these scriptures to Joseph Smith.

[Durzan]

There is a scripture in Isaiah where it basically says its not enough for thee to gather Israel... The ms /DS will hold all the keys. There will be another servant and other servants but DS / MS has the mantle over the entire gathering. It's all over Isaiah and the OT... Well it's in all standard works actually. Moroni quotes many of these scriptures to Joseph Smith.

Ooh, that sounds cool. Citation, so I can look it up?

[Durzan]

Also, the Marred Servant will need our prayers. The Devil IS going to attack him soon, right when he is at most vulnerable. His fight with the Marred Servant is personal to him... he wants revenge for what I mentioned in number 1 on the OP.

The closer 9/23 approaches, the more and more I get the feeling that said date is really important. Satan will attack him on or near that date, I think.

[Alaris]

There is a scripture in Isaiah where it basically says its not enough for thee to gather Israel... The ms /DS will hold all the keys. There will be another servant and other servants but DS / MS has the mantle over the entire gathering. It's all over Isaiah and the OT... Well it's in all standard works actually. Moroni quotes many of these scriptures to Joseph Smith.

Ooh, that sounds cool. Citation, so I can look it up?

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Jeremiah 31-33

Jeremiah 33:15 ¶ In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.

Edit: Joseph Smith history in the pogp has many of the scriptures Moroni quoted including Isaiah 11 and Malachi 3 (which is about the DS imho) and 4.

[Rensai]

Also, the Marred Servant will need our prayers. The Devil IS going to attack him soon, right when he is at most vulnerable. His fight with the Marred Servant is personal to him... he wants revenge for what I mentioned in number 1 on the OP.

The closer 9/23 approaches, the more and more I get the feeling that said date is really important. Satan will attack him on or near that date, I think.

Yes, if he is caught up to the throne of God (probably in spirit like Isaiah), as it says in revelations 12, then he will have to face Satan too. That seems to fit the pattern of all the other major prophets. Opposition in all things. Just like Joseph smith in the grove, Moses after the burning bush, etc.

[Durzan]

There is a scripture in Isaiah where it basically says its not enough for thee to gather Israel... The ms /DS will hold all the keys. There will be another servant and other servants but DS / MS has the mantle over the entire gathering. It's all over Isaiah and the OT... Well it's in all standard works actually. Moroni quotes many of these scriptures to Joseph Smith.

Ooh, that sounds cool. Citation, so I can look it up?

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Jeremiah 31-33

Jeremiah 33:15 ¶ In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.

Edit: Joseph Smith history in the pogp has many of the scriptures Moroni quoted including Isaiah 11 and Malachi 3 (which is about the DS imho) and 4.

Hmm... I'm not seeing how you got the MS/DS would have all keys from those verses. But these verses are talking about about the Davidic Servant and the all right. Notice how in Isaiah it talks about "my servant" while in Ezekiel it talks about "My servant David"? That's an important distinction between the two, and one of the indicators that they are two seperate individuals.

[Alaris]

There is a scripture in Isaiah where it basically says its not enough for thee to gather Israel... The ms /DS will hold all the keys. There will be another servant and other servants but DS / MS has the mantle over the entire gathering. It's all over Isaiah and the OT... Well it's in all standard works actually. Moroni quotes many of these scriptures to Joseph Smith.

Ooh, that sounds cool. Citation, so I can look it up?

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Jeremiah 31-33

Jeremiah 33:15 ¶ In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.

Edit: Joseph Smith history in the pogp has many of the scriptures Moroni quoted including Isaiah 11 and Malachi 3 (which is about the DS imho) and 4.

Hmm... I'm not seeing how you got the MS/DS would have all keys from those verses. But these verses are talking about about the Davidic Servant and the all right. Notice how in Isaiah it talks about "my servant" while in Ezekiel it talks about "My servant David"? That's an important distinction between the two, and one of the indicators that they are two seperate individuals.

One kingdom and one ruler... David. The same servant who restores Israel. It's OK to be wrong from time to time. I'm sometimes wrong even. I know, I know. Hard to believe but true nonetheless.

[dafty]

what on earth are you doing posting on the forum this time of the night mr Alaris? It must be way past midnight up in yankee land, innit? get some melatonin down you-baby b up now

[Alaris]

what on earth are you doing posting on the forum this time of the night mr Alaris? It must be way past midnight up in yankee land, innit? get some melatonin down you-baby b up now

Both my babies are awake though one is about to go to sleep. I'm way too sensitive to melatonin. One teeny dose and I'm asleep for fourteen hours and I'm zombie brain all the following day.

[Durzan]

One kingdom and one ruler... David. The same servant who restores Israel. It's OK to be wrong from time to time. I'm sometimes wrong even. I know, I know. Hard to believe but true nonetheless.

Respectfully, I disagree. The Ezekiel quote you used is talking about how In the last days there shall once again be only one physical kingdom of Israel, instead of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah that existed at the time. One ruler of Israel, named David (Coincidentally, the first prime minister of modern day israel was named David, meaning they would revere him the same way we revere George Washington) and one shepard... a clear reference to Israel accepting the fullness of the gospel once more and recognizing Christ as their savior in the Last Days. The term "one shepard" typically refers to Christ, who shall be both King and Shepard (Religious leader) during the Millennium.

Christ is also a direct descendant of King David, and so this prophecy could also be seen as a prophecy about Christ, assuming that in his particular instance that the name David is a name title similar to the name title of Elias and Raphael.

[Rensai]

One kingdom and one ruler... David. The same servant who restores Israel. It's OK to be wrong from time to time. I'm sometimes wrong even. I know, I know. Hard to believe but true nonetheless.

Respectfully, I disagree. The Ezekiel quote you used is talking about how In the last days there shall once again be only one physical kingdom of Israel, instead of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah that existed at the time. One ruler of Israel, named David (Coincidentally, the first prime minister of modern day israel was named David, meaning they would revere him the same way we revere George Washington) and one shepard... a clear reference to Israel accepting the fullness of the gospel once more and recognizing Christ as their savior in the Last Days. The term "one shepard" typically refers to Christ, who shall be both King and Shepard (Religious leader) during the Millennium.

Christ is also a direct descendant of King David, and so this prophecy could also be seen as a prophecy about Christ, assuming that in his particular instance that the name David is a name title similar to the name title of Elias and Raphael.

That's pretty much how I read those quotes too.

[Alaris]

The one shepherd over Israel in those scriptures is the same David that Joseph Smith said would inherit the throne and kingdom of David. We all tend to want to shoehorn these prophecies into what is familiar and comfortable to us, especially if it helps us feel we are giving the Lord His much due reverence and worship. However this latter day King David is a symbol of our Saviors love and the plan of salvation which both the Lord and Heavenly Father have effectuated for us.

Facsimile 3 shows Abraham ruling at Pharaohs behest sitting on the throne while Pharaoh stands behind him. This is a grand principle with smaller microcosms and symbols. Joseph ruled at Pharaoh's behest. The latter day David rules at Christ's behest just as Christ rules at Elohims behest. The plan of salvation is one of participatory Godhood, governance, and salvation. Our baptismal covenant is essentially the role of the Holy Ghost is mosiah 18. Temple work is proxy salvation. The ascension of the Davidic Servant is highly emblematic of our own exaltation and reward and ruling at the behest of a higher being.

[AI2.0]

The predictions in the OP of this 'marred servant' are mostly based on personal revelation. The times scriptures are cited, it is most often using an 'alternate interpretation'. From what I see, most of the scriptures cited are actually referring to Jesus Christ and a couple refer to Joseph Smith.

I'm not sure what purpose there is in taking scriptures which are referring to the Messiah and trying to rework them to make them fit a personal belief in additional 'servants' coming forward in the last days.

It seems foolish to be looking for a man when we should be looking for the return of the Savior (though a lot needs to happen before this). It seems especially dangerous to be looking for a man during a time when false christs and false prophets will be rising up among us to lead people astray.

And, while I've seen a lot of predictions that something will happen on Sept 23, I really am not sure exactly what people are trying to claim will happen. I think they've kept it vague because while they secretly hope for some calamitous or miraculous event, they know that sept 23 will come and go as any other day.

There are signs in the heavens but I don't think they are meant to be read singly, but to be taken collectively, as this fulfills prophecy. We already know we live in the last days and we already know the events which need to take place before the return of the Savior in his glory.

[Alaris]

You tend to shut down speculation and discussion on the pretext of it being dangerous. We are here gathered in the name of the Lord to discuss these exciting times. I'm open to being wrong about every single thing to know the truth and mind of the lord. Are you? Because you are wrong about an important end times servant not appearing before the Lord does. Joseph Smith has stated this more than once. The scriptures state it. Read Isaiah 11. Revelation 11. D&C 113. Ezekiel 37. Humble yourself and be ready to learn something new as the Lord cannot teach those who blind themselves thinking they already know the meaning of all things.

You are not the shepherd of dangerous speculation.

Nobody is prophesying what will happen on 9/23 but we are collectively doing what's been commanded of us by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself to look for signs of His coming so to shame us into silence is something we can know with a perfect knowledge is not of Him. To say we err by discussing what the signs mean is wrong. To suggest this is foolishness is in fact the opposite. Until we know all things we should ever be searching together not shaming or fearmongering people into silence.

If the Lord ever tells me, "Go and say unto this people, 'Thus saith the Lord`“ I would do so, wouldn't you? Yet not even the Op has done that as Durzan is just sharing what he feels has been personally revealed to him. Joseph Smith himself encourages this as you can see in the quote that BrianM placed in the rules.

[Rensai]

The predictions in the OP of this 'marred servant' are mostly based on personal revelation. The times scriptures are cited, it is most often using an 'alternate interpretation'. From what I see, most of the scriptures cited are actually referring to Jesus Christ and a couple refer to Joseph Smith.

I'm not sure what purpose there is in taking scriptures which are referring to the Messiah and trying to rework them to make them fit a personal belief in additional 'servants' coming forward in the last days.

It seems foolish to be looking for a man when we should be looking for the return of the Savior (though a lot needs to happen before this). It seems especially dangerous to be looking for a man during a time when false christs and false prophets will be rising up among us to lead people astray.

And, while I've seen a lot of predictions that something will happen on Sept 23, I really am not sure exactly what people are trying to claim will happen. I think they've kept it vague because while they secretly hope for some calamitous or miraculous event, they know that sept 23 will come and go as any other day.

There are signs in the heavens but I don't think they are meant to be read singly, but to be taken collectively, as this fulfills prophecy. We already know we live in the last days and we already know the events which need to take place before the return of the Savior in his glory.

Read 3 Nephi 20 and 21. Christ is talking to the Nephites/Lamanites and telling them what is going to happen to their descendants in the last days. He talks about the restoration of the gospel, the cleansing of america, and the building of Zion. Its hard to find scriptures more relevant and important to our day than those 2 chapters, yet hardly anyone takes the time to really study them. If you do, it becomes clear that there absolutely will be an important servant/prophet to usher in Zion and it is definitely not Joseph. Joseph was not marred, he died, this servant does not die, and most importantly Joseph didn't usher in Zion as this servant will. Go read. its important. Its not Joseph and its not Christ, he calls this man his servant, Christ is the one speaking. I think he's also mentioned in D&C 103:13-18.

As you pointed out, there are tons of false prophets, Satan is trying to confuse everything. How will you recognize the real servant if you aren't familiar with the signs and work he will do?

EDIT: Another interesting thing, you mentioned the risks of false prophets, but what about the risks of missing a real one? Here is what it says in 3 Nephi 21:11.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

Those who fail to recognize and follow the words Christ gives this servant will be cut off from among the people of the covenant. Seems like that's something everyone should know about and be watching for.

I expect many will react to the real servant and call him a false prophet. In fact, I expect, if he is marred and healed as I believe the scriptures say he will be, that many will in fact mistake him for the antichrist, since many are looking for a similar sign to identify him, where he is wounded in the head, killed, and then revived. What a bad mistake it would be to confuse the two.

[Alaris]

Can I add a second like to the above post for the Edit?

[Durzan]

How about I do it for you?

On the note of searching dillegently, what are some of the signs you are looking for of the coming of the marred servant? I posted mine, so it's only fair that you guys share what you are looking for. If we can find some common signs (particularly if it is flat out quoted from the scriptures with little to no conjecture) then we have some common ground to work with.

[Alaris]

How about I do it for you?

On the note of searching dillegently, what are some of the signs you are looking for of the coming of the marred servant? I posted mine, so it's only fair that you guys share what you are looking for. If we can find some common signs (particularly if it is flat out quoted from the scriptures with little to no conjecture) then we have some common ground to work with.

I applaud you for your bravery. I would be happy to do so tomorrow if I can find time.

[Seek the Truth]

You tend to shut down speculation and discussion on the pretext of it being dangerous. We are here gathered in the name of the Lord to discuss these exciting times. I'm open to being wrong about every single thing to know the truth and mind of the lord. Are you? Because you are wrong about an important end times servant not appearing before the Lord does. Joseph Smith has stated this more than once. The scriptures state it. Read Isaiah 11. Revelation 11. D&C 113. Ezekiel 37. Humble yourself and be ready to learn something new as the Lord cannot teach those who blind themselves thinking they already know the meaning of all things.

You are not the shepherd of dangerous speculation.

Nobody is prophesying what will happen on 9/23 but we are collectively doing what's been commanded of us by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself to look for signs of His coming so to shame us into silence is something we can know with a perfect knowledge is not of Him. To say we err by discussing what the signs mean is wrong. To suggest this is foolishness is in fact the opposite. Until we know all things we should ever be searching together not shaming or fearmongering people into silence.

If the Lord ever tells me, "Go and say unto this people, 'Thus saith the Lord`“ I would do so, wouldn't you? Yet not even the Op has done that as Durzan is just sharing what he feels has been personally revealed to him. Joseph Smith himself encourages this as you can see in the quote that BrianM placed in the rules.

We should all be shepherds of dangerous speculations. Whole sects are ruined by it.

[dafty]

Lets flip that coin and consider: Maybe the only dangerous speculation here, is denying that there will be the end time servant(s)? ...all in all, J.Smith mentions Latter day David, the teaching that cant be denied,...BoM mentions an "Indian prophet"...Isaiah-root rod branch...and so on and so forth.

[Seek the Truth]

Its the just around the corner stuff that gets people in trouble. In the 1970's my family knew people who would name their kids David. Still waiting.